Brexit.

[Minder]

Thats exactly the attitude I'm talking about. 'They were lied to and stupidly believed the lies - we are right, and if they just had more sense they'd agree with us'. Seems pretty arrogant, and its being propogated by large sections of the media.

You don't think every side in any vote is lied to, manipulated?

We need to get over ourselves. My point if the vote was rerun tomorrow there would still be a sizeable 'Out' vote, probably a 50/50 chance on winning again, was in relation to discounting those who said afterwards in interviews saying they didn't expect to win etc. Fact is, they did win, in a democratic vote, and talk about re-running or ignoring the result may temporarily defend EU'ness, but would have a much greater and more long standing ill effect in destroying democracy.

And it is true, nothing dangerous about that. Its fact. I said a good proportion not all.

You are failing to see that the same media that are now propagating this message are same said media that spread the lies and the hate that mainly led to the vote going the way it went.

Take into the fact that of the four regions that took the vote, two voted to stay so where is the democracy for those regions?

Do you read the daily mail, the express? No? You do as we all probably do - read the papers which reinforce your own views. Thats the media who is propagating this image of idiots voting 'Leave'. Tell you one thing - there were a hell of a lot of them. Thats democracy. Perhaps there should be an IQ test/educational standard to be achieved before being allowed to vote??

You've said it - regions. Like it or not, we're a region of the UK for these purposes. To break down what you're suggesting fully, its that anyone who votes against the eventual result, should be entitled to ignore it. That doesn't sound like democracy to me.

And who controls the Right leaning media?
Who is trying to influence who the next PM is?

I'm not saying that there should be a IQ test for voters, but at the same time when people are blatantly lied too in an election campaign which naturally influences the vote there is also something wrong with that. Especially when it is being driven and controlled to suit the agenda of one individual.

The Times, owned by Rupert Murdoch & would be described as "right leaning media" backed Remain.

[NAG1]

Thats exactly the attitude I'm talking about. 'They were lied to and stupidly believed the lies - we are right, and if they just had more sense they'd agree with us'. Seems pretty arrogant, and its being propogated by large sections of the media.

You don't think every side in any vote is lied to, manipulated?

We need to get over ourselves. My point if the vote was rerun tomorrow there would still be a sizeable 'Out' vote, probably a 50/50 chance on winning again, was in relation to discounting those who said afterwards in interviews saying they didn't expect to win etc. Fact is, they did win, in a democratic vote, and talk about re-running or ignoring the result may temporarily defend EU'ness, but would have a much greater and more long standing ill effect in destroying democracy.

And it is true, nothing dangerous about that. Its fact. I said a good proportion not all.

You are failing to see that the same media that are now propagating this message are same said media that spread the lies and the hate that mainly led to the vote going the way it went.

Take into the fact that of the four regions that took the vote, two voted to stay so where is the democracy for those regions?

Do you read the daily mail, the express? No? You do as we all probably do - read the papers which reinforce your own views. Thats the media who is propagating this image of idiots voting 'Leave'. Tell you one thing - there were a hell of a lot of them. Thats democracy. Perhaps there should be an IQ test/educational standard to be achieved before being allowed to vote??

You've said it - regions. Like it or not, we're a region of the UK for these purposes. To break down what you're suggesting fully, its that anyone who votes against the eventual result, should be entitled to ignore it. That doesn't sound like democracy to me.

And who controls the Right leaning media?
Who is trying to influence who the next PM is?

I'm not saying that there should be a IQ test for voters, but at the same time when people are blatantly lied too in an election campaign which naturally influences the vote there is also something wrong with that. Especially when it is being driven and controlled to suit the agenda of one individual.

The Times, owned by Rupert Murdoch & would be described as "right leaning media" backed Remain.

Yet The Sun campaign to Leave?

Puppets on strings

Looking at the voting demographics which paper do you think would have had more influence Minder?

[armaghniac]

Unfortunately, the British media, the likes of the Sun, have been peddling this anti EU cack for years with nonsense about straight bananas and the like, the list of myths is endless. Apparently. the EU decided to abolish double decker buses over 20 years ago, not surprising Boris and Wright were opposed. Oddly enough there are still double decker buses.

[seafoid]

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-belfast-agreement-is-a-threat-to-the-new-english-nationalism-1.2710209

Fintan O'Toole: Belfast Agreement is a threat to the new English nationalism

The Government must oppose moves to take NI out of the EU against its will



Northern Ireland is not Lincolnshire or Somerset. It is a distinct and unique political entity, recognised as such by an international treaty registered with the United Nations: the Belfast Agreement of 1998.

Its people have a right to consent to the political arrangements by which they are governed – and they did not consent to being removed from the European Union.

It is thus the duty of the Government to make it clear to the British government that Northern Ireland cannot and must not be taken out of the EU against its will. Ireland must engage with the EU at every level to insist that Northern Ireland remain a part of the EU. This will be complex, but so is Northern Ireland.

The Brexiteers don't give a damn about Northern Ireland. In fact, at least two of the leading candidates for leadership of the Tory party, including the woman who is most likely to be the next British prime minister, Theresa May, are actively hostile to the Belfast Agreement.

Related Fintan O'Toole: Brexit and the politics of the fake orgasm
Fintan O'Toole: Brexit fantasy is about to come crashing down
Fintan O'Toole: Brexit is an English nationalist revolution

Michael Gove, who is what passes for the intellectual driving force behind Brexit, utterly despises the 1998 peace deal. In The Price of Peace, his long pamphlet for the right-wing Centre for Policy Studies, published in 2000, Gove characterised the entire peace process as nothing more than a capitulation to the IRA. He insisted that the cause of the Troubles was British lack of firmness in facing down demands for a united Ireland and argued that, if only British governments had taken a harder line, the IRA would have become discouraged and given up. This is idiocy but, like Gove's Brexit theorems, dangerous idiocy.

Hitler analogies
In a foretaste of the Brexiteers' fondness for Hitler analogies, Gove likened the peace process to appeasement of the Nazis in the 1930s and, implicitly, compared himself to the brave anti-Nazis who defied conventional wisdom to speak the truth. However what's most important to understand is that Gove's paper epitomises a much deeper set of attitudes to Northern Ireland among what is now the controlling faction of the British ruling class. His arguments against the peace deal showed wilful ignorance of Irish history and of the Troubles – because his real concern was with the effect of the Belfast Agreement on British politics.
Democratic reform
What Gove was really worried about was that the Belfast Areement was, as he put it, "a Trojan horse" for democratic reform across the UK. It introduces proportional representation. Horrifically, "it enshrines a vision of human rights which privileges contending minorities at the expense of the democratic majority". Even worse, "it offers social and economic rights".
The core of Gove's jeremiad is that the Belfast Agreement is a threat to the British system of government and law. Underlying this attack is a sense that it would be better to destroy the peace deal, at whatever cost to the people of Northern Ireland, than to allow this monstrosity to undermine a conservative vision of Britishness.

And, if we cut away the hysteria, Gove is right. The Belfast Agreement, with its support for multiple identities, contingent sovereignty and externally guaranteed human rights, makes Northern Ireland a very different kind of political space to the rest of the UK. It is indeed incompatible with the kind of English conservative vision that is now in the ascendant.

This perception, crucially, extends beyond Gove, who is not going to be the British prime minister who negotiates Brexit. That will probably be Theresa May. So what does May think of the Belfast Agreement? Her antipathy is quieter and less explicit, but she is essentially Govian. We know this because her signature political issue has been the scrapping of the UK's Human Rights Act, ending the jurisdiction in the UK of the European Court of Human Rights.

And this is a straightforward intention to impugn the Belfast Agreement. In that agreement, the British government commits itself to "complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights, with direct access to the courts and remedies for breach of the convention, including power for the courts to overrule assembly legislation on the grounds of inconsistency".

May's intention is, in effect, to withdraw unilaterally from this international treaty commitment, thereby undermining British commitment to the agreement. Her reasoning is essentially the same as Gove's: the Belfast Agreement contains concepts and commitments that are not compatible with the resurgent conservative vision of English law and governance.

Dismissive
In this new dispensation, the Belfast Agreement is a threat to the English nationalist agenda and its validity must be undermined. Ironically, the regime that is coming to power on the back of a referendum blithely dismisses the 1998 referendum in Northern Ireland that endorsed the peace deal. (Gove calls it "a rigged referendum".) Equally, the majority against Brexit in Northern Ireland is of no consequence: against the whole spirit of the agreement, consent is irrelevant.
The Government has to speak very, very clearly about this: Northern Ireland is not an English shire but a distinct polity with a recognised right to determine its own future – within the EU.

[seafoid]

Unfortunately, the British media, the likes of the Sun, have been peddling this anti EU cack for years with nonsense about straight bananas and the like, the list of myths is endless. Apparently. the EU decided to abolish double decker buses over 20 years ago, not surprising Boris and Wright were opposed. Oddly enough there are still double decker buses.

The EU was overwhelmingly positive for the UK economy.
Murdoch and Dacre and co hate it.
Sun and DM  readers will now be shafted

[maddog]

I firmly believe that if it was to be voted on in the morning it would be 60/40 remain. The amount of people i know that voted out and are now back peddling is just silly. And why ? Because they didn't think Out would actually happen, it was a protest vote and driven by the immigration issue largely.

How many people did you speak to before who said they were voting 'Leave? I was speaking to very few, and came to the conclusion that in this age of social media everyone is media savvy and outwardly goes with the populist view, regardless of their actual view/vote. I certainly saw v little correlation between what people were saying and what happened.

In our office of about 60 people would say probably 60-65% were saying out. (I am in Birmingham btw) Our office would be made up of 95% male, youngest about 28 oldest about 60. Not typical by any stretch. A lot of it was chest out bravado stuff never thinking it would happen. Same old arguments - more money for NHS, kick the immigrants out, no rule by Brussels. Birmingham is a bit insular at the best of times.

[Minder]

Unfortunately, the British media, the likes of the Sun, have been peddling this anti EU cack for years with nonsense about straight bananas and the like, the list of myths is endless. Apparently. the EU decided to abolish double decker buses over 20 years ago, not surprising Boris and Wright were opposed. Oddly enough there are still double decker buses.

When Boris Johnson was a journalist for the Telegraph, I think, in the late 80s- early 90s he was the EU correspondent and admitted recently he used to make up all the nonsense stories you used to read about in the papers.

[screenexile]

Housing market falling as well . . .

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-housing-market-decline-rapid-cool-eu-referendum-uk-a7102521.html

[armaghniac]

Housing market falling as well . . .

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-housing-market-decline-rapid-cool-eu-referendum-uk-a7102521.html

While many people may think this not entirely a bad thing, as we in Ireland know you then have problems with banks etc., even if they don't go bust they stop lending.

[muppet]

Boris and co are pointing to the non-collapse of the economy as proof that they were right. But Brexit hasn't happened yet. The decision is all that has happened.

If you decide to amputate a perfectly good leg, demonstrating your ability to run to the hospital isn't proof that everything will be normal afterwards.

[armaghniac]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/04/standard-life-shuts-property-fund-post-brexit-withdrawals


Not going so well

Aviva closes its fund
http://www.ftadviser.com/2016/07/05/investments/property/aviva-investors-suspends-bn-uk-property-trust-tuUypQxaHA805NZQhsGUvI/article.html

The €uro is now 85p.

[muppet]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/brexit-vote-paralyzes-companies-across-europe-1467665743

[heganboy]

Pound continues to drop against the dollar, below 1.31

[heganboy]

Carney driving the point home today. Meetings with the banks tomorrow. Djia Futures down on predicted BofE rate drop and new economic reality seeing in. Paralysis in multinational European investment strategies and Q3 and 4 business plans and results due to the uncertainties. Complete lottery at this point. No way of pricing then in.

You can say  all you want about the Democratic results of the referendum. However like any other decision making system, bullshit input means bullshit results. The talk of balanced coverage and claim and counter claim is beginning to look more and more like the two sided discussion of evolution and" intelligent design"

Literally nobody predicted this credibly. The defensive moves taken by funds to liquidate UK equity and move it to USD look like prophets, but in reality it was an Uber defensive move  to protect capital. Quids in!

[muppet]

Business hates uncertainty.

The UK has:

...no Prime Minister...
...a lame duck opposition leader...
...the main 'winners' of the referendum resigning...
...no date for the implementation of the decision...
...no one knows when the negotiations will begin...
...no one knows where or when it will end...
...possibly a Scottish political revolution on the way...
...a potential new mess coming in Northern Ireland (especially if Gove gets in)...
...always been a pain in the arse in Europe...
...very, very few friends in Europe...
...delighted Trump, which means it probably has less friends in the US than it thinks...
...seen a 500% rise in hate crimes since the vote: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hate-crimes-surge-after-brexit-vote-uk-police_us_57763f23e4b09b4c43bfe34b ...


This sums it up beautifully:

"The talk of balanced coverage and claim and counter claim is beginning to look more and more like the two sided discussion of evolution and" intelligent design""