Armagh next steps

[lurganblue]

I dont like to say it but I think it might be time for a change.  I think things need freshened up at the very least, with new voices and ideas.  It all seemed to go a bit stale this year when I expected us to push on. If Geezer does get another year then he should clear the decks on his support staff. 

A few posts saying that we have nothing coming through.  I'd say that's slightly wide of the mark.  We do have some talented individuals coming through but yes i do take the point that we havent been able to put together a successful underage team in a while.

The lack of a centre of excellence remains a mystery. 

[Louther]

Armagh are a bit like Cavan in that they've a manager that has run his course probably but when you look out there for the next manager you might be inclined to stick with the devil you know.

I'd strongly disagree there. That's fear rather than making the right call for the right reasons.

There is lots of people out there. You just have to be ambitious - Louth going after Harte; Antrim with McGinley and then Andy McEntee. Down getting Laverty.

Was Gallagher an obvious one to Derry? Manages will travel, Mark Doran going to Clare, Tally to Kerry.

Could they sell a project to Malachy O'Rourke? Oisin McConville? McEntees? Mickey Graham? Enda McGinley? Jim McGuinness? Pat Gilroy?

I think some overthink it. Top managers love the challenge and the chance to make a breakthrough.

[the goal was on]

mickey graham to replace mc geeney! sweet jesus.

[Louther]

mickey graham to replace mc geeney! sweet jesus.

Well he has an Ulster 

Actually, Grahams managerial record is way ahead of McGeeney. Forgot his Leinster club. Had the relegations with Cavan but has taken them back into Div2 against Armagh next year. All the while he has lost some of his best players along the way. He wins things. Something Armagh lack.

[DuffleKing]

Armagh are a bit like Cavan in that they've a manager that has run his course probably but when you look out there for the next manager you might be inclined to stick with the devil you know.

I'd strongly disagree there. That's fear rather than making the right call for the right reasons.

There is lots of people out there. You just have to be ambitious - Louth going after Harte; Antrim with McGinley and then Andy McEntee. Down getting Laverty.

Was Gallagher an obvious one to Derry? Manages will travel, Mark Doran going to Clare, Tally to Kerry.

Could they sell a project to Malachy O'Rourke? Oisin McConville? McEntees? Mickey Graham? Enda McGinley? Jim McGuinness? Pat Gilroy?

I think some overthink it. Top managers love the challenge and the chance to make a breakthrough.

Mad the way some people think. What have Andy McEntee, McGinley,  Laverty and a couple more on that list done that would put them ahead of McGeeney?

[AustinPowers]

Ulster is probably the weakest province at the moment. It is competitive but the 2 are not the same. Derry are also quite limited.
Both Ulster semi final teams will probably get hammered in due course.
There is no magic formula for leaving mediocrity behind. And a lot of success is time dependent . Armagh won that all Ireland when Dublin were weak and Kerry were rebuilding.

Look I hate Armagh more than anyone but they were the best team in Ireland bar Tyrone that year and deserved it. They moved the dial in terms of preparation and how teams approached games. Every All Ireland can't be predicated with Dublin were weak and Kerry rebuilding.

Are you  referring to  2002? 

I'd agree with  the rest  of that though

[yellowcard]

Armagh are a bit like Cavan in that they've a manager that has run his course probably but when you look out there for the next manager you might be inclined to stick with the devil you know.

I'd strongly disagree there. That's fear rather than making the right call for the right reasons.

There is lots of people out there. You just have to be ambitious - Louth going after Harte; Antrim with McGinley and then Andy McEntee. Down getting Laverty.

Was Gallagher an obvious one to Derry? Manages will travel, Mark Doran going to Clare, Tally to Kerry.

Could they sell a project to Malachy O'Rourke? Oisin McConville? McEntees? Mickey Graham? Enda McGinley? Jim McGuinness? Pat Gilroy?

I think some overthink it. Top managers love the challenge and the chance to make a breakthrough.

Mad the way some people think. What have Andy McEntee, McGinley,  Laverty and a couple more on that list done that would put them ahead of McGeeney?

It's mental gymnastics. Getting a big name outside manager would not solve all ills like some think. They'll come in for a year or two but will not be there for the long haul. Look at how Monaghan toyed with getting Jason Sherlock for a while before stumbling upon Corey almost by default when he had no real reputation at management level. I'd still rather have an Armagh man as manager rather than a big outside name in it for a quick buck.

[Captain Obvious]

lead a protest to getting penalty shootout removed from deciding a contest.

[Armamike]

lead a protest to getting penalty shootout removed from deciding a contest.

Well we will shortly have one of our own in charge so who knows!

[Ed Ricketts]

Upwards of a third of the current starting team won't be there in 2025, so a significant rebuild really is in the post for Armagh. That's the project for the next management team.

I think honest discussion is required between all stakeholders over the next few months. If Grugan, Campbell, etc., decide on one last dance in 2024 then it makes the most sense to keep McGeeney in place. I don't think new management would have the time to turn the bus in a new direction before those lads start getting off - it'll take a while to move on from 9+ years of McGeeneyism.

But if those older boys decide they've had their fill, then it's as good a time as any to bite the bullet and see what someone else can do in the hotseat.

Were Armagh ever to ditch McGeeney, I think the time to do it was probably in and around 2020/21. That would have allowed different management with different ideas a good 3/4 seasons with the current group. We'll never know how that might have turned out - but for me, we're as likely to have bombed to Division 3 again as anything else. It's very difficult to separate out the effect of McGeeney from the credentials of the current panel. Few of those involved have played much county football under anyone else - for better or worse, McGeeney has been central to the development of all of them.

Derry will probably improve again next year, and so might Tyrone under new management, but if Armagh keep the band together they won't be far away from an Ulster title in 2024 - an AI is miles out of reach while either of Dublin or Kerry have their shit together.

The football under McGeeney this last year or so was mostly dreadful to watch, but it did leave Armagh competitive in every game against every opposition. They've lost one of the last 11 championship games within the regulation 70 minutes - and that one game was played with a numerical disadvantage for the most part. It's been 17 league games, all against Division 1 opposition, since Armagh lost by more than a single score. There's a very solid base there.

There are also some very talented players to return from long term injury, like Oisin O'Neill, Ciaron O'Hanlon and Tiernan Kelly. These are all big, powerful, mobile footballers - built for the way the game is played these days. Fit and flying versions of each would add enormous impetus to any challenge in 2024. A couple of tweaks in approach, maybe some more conviction when in winning positions, and the summit can be reached.

Of course, the last few paragraphs are an admittedly optimistic take on things - but Armagh's next steps probably depend on how much this sort of optimism resonates with the men from the class of 2009.

[Louther]

Armagh are a bit like Cavan in that they've a manager that has run his course probably but when you look out there for the next manager you might be inclined to stick with the devil you know.

I'd strongly disagree there. That's fear rather than making the right call for the right reasons.

There is lots of people out there. You just have to be ambitious - Louth going after Harte; Antrim with McGinley and then Andy McEntee. Down getting Laverty.

Was Gallagher an obvious one to Derry? Manages will travel, Mark Doran going to Clare, Tally to Kerry.

Could they sell a project to Malachy O'Rourke? Oisin McConville? McEntees? Mickey Graham? Enda McGinley? Jim McGuinness? Pat Gilroy?

I think some overthink it. Top managers love the challenge and the chance to make a breakthrough.

Mad the way some people think. What have Andy McEntee, McGinley,  Laverty and a couple more on that list done that would put them ahead of McGeeney?

Completely missing the point. The list you referred to was about counties going for Managers that you wouldn't have been in their normal radar, outside the box. McGinley on other list of bigger names, maybe not as obvious, but had potential in Antrim with a lesser panel.

Listen, be happy with Armagh. Yous are talking yourselves into him been to the solution and the players/development/club scene been the problem. That's fine, you can't change that but you can change a manger. The reality is I don't think he's ever won anything as a manager. Lot of those names mentioned have, at various levels and achieved plenty.

The biggest fault I can see is that McGeeney didn't win the exact same type of match twice this year - Derry and Monaghan. Both very similar and there to be won, yet he approached the Monaghan game the exact same. Hasn't learned. The Galway game last year that he seems to dine on round here, he should have lost well but Galway buckled. You can't keep sending teams out to win tight games by 1 or 2 points. He does.

[restorepride]

Do Armagh folk feel that Kieran Donaghy's input has added anything?  Or not?

[Armagh18]

At the risk of total pollution by our friendly neighbours what would Armagh supporters like to see happen next year? New management? Geezer stays but with a change in direction?

Its the latter for me. I've been assuming for a while Ciaran McKeever's fingerprints have been all over our style of play (last 2 seasons particularly) as it developed into the current eye cancer. I believe McGeeney has an agreement to stay until the end of next season anyway, I hope he stays along with the more senior players for at least another season. There has to be a change in style or at the very least mindset, which is very easy to say but much harder to implement. We're obviously not a million miles away as it stands.

At the minute it feels as though time has almost ran out for the current side. Players like Grugan, Forker, Soupy, Murnin and Morgan are in their twilight years but without them the drop off could be huge and if Geezer went you could see a mass exodus of players. So I'd give him one more season.

The feeling is a lot different than after last season though when it seemed like we had a change of approach for the better after the Ballybofey defeat. The football was thrills and spills stuff that got you off the edge of your seat. The contrast with this season could not be any starker. I don't know whether that is down tp McKeever putting his stamp on things defensively or Donaghy not being able to get his attacking ideas across but ultimately the buck still stops with the manager. So I'd be a bit torn if we were being forced to continue watching more of the same stuff next season. And that is the biggest issue for me, not the actual defeats themselves. I still think we need to be careful what we wish for and for that reason I'd keep him in charge for another season with the caveat that there needs to be a change in approach.

Agreed, have seen it mentioned that we could go like Kildare after Geezer left them, but something needs to change. I would have been less pissed off if we'd lost similarly to 2021 on a mad scoreline again, rather than being bored to tears watching that shite the other day.

The defensive style of play isn't worth it, Monaghan actually missed a pile of scorable  chances the other day. Would rather we started playing to our strengths, getting the likes of Rian, Soupy and Turbo on the ball high up the pitch.

If we can get Oisin O'Neill, Ciaron O'Hanlon and TK fit for next year they'll be a serious help.

[Armagh18]

Seriously, no messing... Armagh need to start at the bottom. Underage. They don't win enough Ulster Minor or U-20 (Whatever the grade is now) at the moment. Never mind All Irelands. Have they won 3 underage All Irelands in their history? It's not a hard and fast rule but its a good indicator. Todays Kerry side won 5 minor titles in a row. That's the calibre all teams are competing against. Develop those players.

They need a Centre of Excellence. Have they started the one that was passed in planning?

Winning on the pitch starts off it. Armagh are behind all the top counties around the country.

Yeah nail on the head for once there! Even our club and schools teams, bar Cross barely a championship winner ever won a game in Ulster and it's been a while since Cross did anything at Ulster level. Same with school teams, Tyrone and Derry are consistently winning titles, last schools team we had do anything was St Ronan's Hogan winning team, I think TK was on that team but not sure if we got anyone else from it. Before that it was a brilliant St Pauls team who lost a couple of finals and we did get a fair few from that.

There is plenty of young talent though within the county, for whatever reason they just don't seem to click as a team when it comes to county underage teams.

[Abble]

Do Armagh folk feel that Kieran Donaghy's input has added anything?  Or not?

For me, its been Donaghy who has been the brains behind any of the attacking improvement there has been since he arrived.
This year however, with all the over-defensive style, mgmt obviously were spotting weaknesses whether it be due to squad depth, injuries I don't know...but Donaghy is the last person I would be faulting or want to see go. Put it like this, he leaves and then we are no longer even considering ourselves a top 8 county for the foreseeable.