A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[dublin7]

The Scottish independence referendum is a good example. As it was such a close vote it achieved nothing and was worst of both worlds. It means leavers are demanding another referendum as it was so close and claiming the closeness of the vote isn't a real mandate to remain part of the UK. The remainers argument the people want to stay is weak one as so many wanted to leave.

If a border poll is called as SF insist and they lose, that would give the UK the right to refuse to call another one for decades as that's what the people have decided. This doesn't seem to be something SF supporters have considered or do they think these polls should be every couple of years until they get the result they want?

Every couple of years? Have you read any of the GFA at all? If a poll is lost narrowly, then another poll cannot be held for at least 7 years. Now consider that the British Sec of State, according the the GFA, can only call one when it appears "likely to him/her" that a poll will actually result in Irish unity. So then, if it appears likely that a majority will vote for reunification, that then means it will be the likeliest outcome of the poll, so by definition, it will be unlikely that another order poll will even be required.
If the pro-unity vote loses narrowly, then once the required minimum 7 years has passed, and demographics have shifted even further towards an increase in support for reunification, then another border poll will inevitably have to happen again.

7 years is something. It's not definite though. Depending on the closeness of the vote there's no guarantee another vote will be called and the secretary of state can easily refuse to call one. While the decision rests with the Sec. of state he's not going to make that decision without the UK PM (whoever that will be) giving his approval so in reality that's who'll need to be convinced.

Can the remainers call for another vote in 7 years if the vote goes the other way and the Sec of state thinks that's what the majority want?

[Windmill abu]

Of the many Countries (60 or 70?) that got out of the British clutches NONE have asked to go back under their control.
Larnaparka raises an interesting point....what happens if we vite NO?

But in all but one case, Ireland, none of these countries were ever part of the United Kingdom itself

In no case did any of these places have a knife edge balance where around half the population was desperate to remain under British control

When NI was created, there was a hefty Protestant/Unionist majority

That changed largely because Catholics/Nationalists started outbreeding Protestants/Unionists

So, in a hypothetical situation where a border poll went the way of unification by 50.1% to 49.9%, what happens then if Protestants/Unionists start outbreeding Catholics/Nationalists and within a short time have tipped the balance back the other way

If Hong Kong held a referendum on whether it wanted to go back under British control now, it would be interesting to see which way it would go

The people of Hong Kong didn't get a vote to leave British control. This was a deal done between China and Britain after the opium wars. So any referendum voting to rejoin with Britain would not be a change of mind by the majority in Hong Kong.

[johnnycool]

Of the many Countries (60 or 70?) that got out of the British clutches NONE have asked to go back under their control.
Larnaparka raises an interesting point....what happens if we vite NO?

You all get shot with a ball of your own dung. 

no doubt there were people in West Germany who feared for their economy when unification happened there, but their fears weren't realised.

IMO When Ireland is unified the Brits would have to pay up all outstand pension funds and all their liabilities for whatever time and I think there'd quite a lot of goodwill and investment come from the US to help with the process.

[Snapchap]

7 years is something. It's not definite though. Depending on the closeness of the vote there's no guarantee another vote will be called and the secretary of state can easily refuse to call one. While the decision rests with the Sec. of state he's not going to make that decision without the UK PM (whoever that will be) giving his approval so in reality that's who'll need to be convinced.

The only reason a vote might not be held would be if the Brits were stupid enough to refuse one, when the dogs on the streets know, and opinion polls consistently show that constitutional change is likely. To refuse to grant on in such a scenario would be to put the GFA in a grave. The consent principle was a negotiated settlement, so I don't think even they would be stupid enough to risk undoing all the positives we've seen since 1998.

Can the remainers call for another vote in 7 years if the vote goes the other way and the Sec of state thinks that's what the majority want?

"Remainers" can call for whatever they want but they'd be wasting their breath. The GFA does not permit/legislate for a poll being held to confirm the status quo. It can only be called if it appears likely to result in constitutional change. So, as I say, if a poll is called, that means the likely result will be reunification.

[Franko]

That's the trouble with trying to maintain a Paul Kimmage type black & white moral outlook on life. If you're a fraud you can't maintain it as Ewan McKenna is finding out.

But it's the Shinners here who do that

And it hasn't gone well for yis

Just look at how yis reacted when yis tried to get all moral over Varadkar

Yis lost the plot completely when your hypocrisy was pointed out, and made fools of yerselves

Fraud is the operative word

That is what Sinn Fein is

Here are my principles and if you don't like them... well I have others.

Angelo really has done a number on you and a service for the rest of us. Exposed as the fraud you are, must sting.

Changing your opinions when you realise they're wrong is what a sensible, rational person does

It's a sign of growth as a person and an ability to think

You and Angelo clearly still haven't realised that

It's why you're both so consistently wrong about things on this forum and end up consistently defending ludicrous positions

And why your debating "strategies" are so reminiscent of four year old children

It's a sign that BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION AND LOGIC, you are someone who used to be "into dead children".

So given that you've admitted that, and consistently (and disgracefully) refused to retract that statement I ask you

When and why did you start being "into dead children"?

[bennydorano]

That's the trouble with trying to maintain a Paul Kimmage type black & white moral outlook on life. If you're a fraud you can't maintain it as Ewan McKenna is finding out.

But it's the Shinners here who do that

And it hasn't gone well for yis

Just look at how yis reacted when yis tried to get all moral over Varadkar

Yis lost the plot completely when your hypocrisy was pointed out, and made fools of yerselves

Fraud is the operative word

That is what Sinn Fein is

Here are my principles and if you don't like them... well I have others.

Angelo really has done a number on you and a service for the rest of us. Exposed as the fraud you are, must sting.

Changing your opinions when you realise they're wrong is what a sensible, rational person does

It's a sign of growth as a person and an ability to think

You and Angelo clearly still haven't realised that

It's why you're both so consistently wrong about things on this forum and end up consistently defending ludicrous positions

And why your debating "strategies" are so reminiscent of four year old children

They would normally be traits of a person who has achieved growth & maturity, but you only really show regressive traits. Your childishness is astounding.

[sid waddell]

When and why did you start being "into dead children"?

You and Snapchap were complaining bitterly about this line

And now you're using it yourself unironically

Shoudn't that be a self-banning offence?

Because previously you said this line was offside, and now you're using it yourslef

Maybe Snapchap should clarify if he sees you as sub human too

The hypocrisy of the Shinners never ceases to amaze

[sid waddell]

They would normally be traits of a person who has achieved growth & maturity, but you only really show regressive traits. Your childishness is astounding.

In the Shinners' world, anybody who disagrees with them is a child

Childish, to say the least

[Milltown Row2]

These posts have proved that we have posters who's sole purpose is to be a WUM

Complaining about being banned and wondering why others aren't banned is telling!

[sid waddell]

These posts have proved that we have posters who's sole purpose is to be a WUM

Complaining about being banned and wondering why others aren't banned is telling!

I agree

Shinnerbots have continually tried to drag this topic off the topic with WUMming

It seems the sole function of Franko, Snapchap and Angelo is to try and get other posters banned

Some posters lose the plot altogether when they lose debates

These lads must lead very frustrated lives

[Angelo]

When and why did you start being "into dead children"?

You and Snapchap were complaining bitterly about this line

And now you're using it yourself unironically

Shoudn't that be a self-banning offence?

Because previously you said this line was offside, and now you're using it yourslef

Maybe Snapchap should clarify if he sees you as sub human too

The hypocrisy of the Shinners never ceases to amaze

Hypocrisy?

Really? 

[Armagh18]

These posts have proved that we have posters who's sole purpose is to be a WUM

Complaining about being banned and wondering why others aren't banned is telling!

I agree

Shinnerbots have continually tried to drag this topic off the topic with WUMming

It seems the sole function of Franko, Snapchap and Angelo is to try and get other posters banned

Some posters lose the plot altogether when they lose debates

These lads must lead very frustrated lives

How do i block/ignore this clown?

[pbat]

I see Claire Byrne doing her show Monday on what a United Ireland will look like and is looking contributors. She will probably roll out Ben Lowry or wee Jamie. 

[sid waddell]

How do i block/ignore this clown?

Given that you have to ask how to block somebody, your post is deliciously ironic 

[sid waddell]

When and why did you start being "into dead children"?

You and Snapchap were complaining bitterly about this line

And now you're using it yourself unironically

Shoudn't that be a self-banning offence?

Because previously you said this line was offside, and now you're using it yourslef

Maybe Snapchap should clarify if he sees you as sub human too

The hypocrisy of the Shinners never ceases to amaze

Hypocrisy?

Really? 

You might want to look up what hypocrisy means

Changing one's views is not hypocrisy

Consistently applying double standards, such as demanding that a politician from a party you don't like stands aside when under investigation, when you have defended politicians from the party you support not standing aside when under investigation - now that very much is hypocrisy

It's a double standard

That's what Sinn Fein and Sinn Fein supporting posters here engage in non-stop

Hypocrisy and double standards

Hypocrisy and double standards is what destroys credibility and yours was totally destroyed a long time ago - along with the likes of Franko and Snapchap