A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[Denn Forever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcgscTnXRzA

[smelmoth]

The new All Ireland State won't be a Unitary State.
It will most likely be a Confederation with 2 "Home Rule" regions based on the 26 and 6 County Areas.

I think you have got the drift of this.

NI surviving or not is not about the redrawing of the border it's about the virtually impossibility of there being a unitary state in a new Ireland. NI will exist. So even in a UI NI has to be made work.

Try getting a SF candidate to engage in this point though?

And in my experience there are some SF voters who back SF's "strategic" dodging of governmental responsibilities as a mean of proving NI not being to work without realising that even in a UI there will still be a stormont, a NI, a need for consent of 2 communities, a GFA, a role for the GB government etc etc

It seems SF have a vested interest in ignorance

This

SF haven't the intelligence to understand this. For everyday they grandstand on equality issues they are pushing any possible UI further and further away.
The GFA is the only show in town. The sooner people realise this, then the sooner we can get on with the serious business of making NI work and work it must if you want to achieve a UI as I do.

Think you are wrong there. I believe SF have a long term strategy and are working towards that. Look at how they managed SDLP, growth in the south, and even how they managed Brexit (relatively bruise free). They are a durable party, that are prepared to "tough it out" during periods of bad press.

On unification,  and evidence of them considering changes that will be required to accommodate the British / Unionist identify, she spoke last year about being open to discussions on Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth.

I think SF have a better understanding the objectives of the game that others are giving them credit for.

Are they any good at delivering government?

Are their candidates truthful about NI continuing to exist even in a UI?

[HiMucker]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

[smelmoth]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

The alternative to making it work is to indulge in the delusion that it doesn't have to be made work (because it isn't going away) and all the time enduring the consequences of it not working. No sane person could advocate that

As a society we can be held up indefinitely by people who want to indulge in a delusion

[johnnycool]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

It is all that, but I think the point smelmoth and Trailer are trying to make is that unionism and to a lesser extent the population down south need to believe that the United Ireland on offer gives them some sort of meaningful representation (Unionists) and a peaceful integration (both).
Is a regional devolved parliament for the 6 counties a long term solution, IMO no, but probably from day 1 of a UI I'd suspect it or something similar in place.

Problem for the Shinners is that the DUP will deny any vestiges of Irishness in Northern Ireland till their dying day irrespective of who is the main nationalist party.

[smelmoth]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

It is all that, but I think the point smelmoth and Trailer are trying to make is that unionism and to a lesser extent the population down south need to believe that the United Ireland on offer gives them some sort of meaningful representation (Unionists) and a peaceful integration (both).
Is a regional devolved parliament for the 6 counties a long term solution, IMO no, but probably from day 1 of a UI I'd suspect it or something similar in place.

Problem for the Shinners is that the DUP will deny any vestiges of Irishness in Northern Ireland till their dying day irrespective of who is the main nationalist party.

It's more than just that. Obviously for there to be a UI there has to be a Vote in favour of it in NI and then separately in ROI. But neither vote removes the GFA or the responsibilities of the 2 governments which they can be held to under international law.

So whatever structures are in place will have the agreement of the GB government. The idea that GB government are going to say not only is NI now in a UI but that they won't insist on power sharing within NI just isn't going to fly. Remember if they don't meet their GFA duties they are in the dock for it.

Many on here have argued that GB will stand on to part fund NI. So this washing of the hands ain't going to be easy

The other alternative is to get rid of GFA but guess what that can only happen if 4 things happen. Irish and British governments have to agree and you will need a majority of both communities in NI.

Every way you look at it NI can be independent, a devolved region of UK or a devolved region of a new Ireland but NI and power sharing is here to stay.

Anybody who says it has failed, is failing or that they want it to fail still doesn't address the fact that all of that doesn't change the reality that we are stuck with it

[Rossfan]

Wouldn't we in the 26 also have to vote to drop the GFA?
Didn't a majority of Unionist voters vote against it in the 6 Cos?
But a majority made up of Nationalist and unaligned voters plus some Unionists voted in favour.

[omaghjoe]

Wouldn't we in the 26 also have to vote to drop the GFA?
Didn't a majority of Unionist voters vote against it in the 6 Cos?
But a majority made up of Nationalist and unaligned voters plus some Unionists voted in favour.

Impossible to say for sure but prob not. Only 29% voted against in NI..... some of those were also Nationalist based on articles 2&3

Also UU party who supported it were the largest Unionist Party in the elections following so you would have to assume a slim majority of Unionists voted for it

[smelmoth]

Wouldn't we in the 26 also have to vote to drop the GFA?
Didn't a majority of Unionist voters vote against it in the 6 Cos?
But a majority made up of Nationalist and unaligned voters plus some Unionists voted in favour.

GFA wouldn't demand an Irish referendum but the Irish constitution would

I think a majority of unionists did vote for GFA but you are correct all the same to call me out on the issue. GFA change would only require an overall majority. But that is where the governments came in. Don't think Irish government would agree to any change that didn't have majority nationalist support and ditto UK government an unionists

[Rossfan]

Hmmmmmm.....
Suppose in say 2030 55% vote to leave the UK and joun an A.I. State.
Unionists will no doubt be almost 100% " NO".
The British (or hopefully English/Welsh) Government can't just simply say No.

[BennyCake]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

NI did work for 50 years, for the unionist people, as it was designed to do.

It stopped "working" when those pesky taigs asked for some basic human rights such as a job, a vote and a house.

[smelmoth]

Hmmmmmm.....
Suppose in say 2030 55% vote to leave the UK and joun an A.I. State.
Unionists will no doubt be almost 100% " NO".
The British (or hopefully English/Welsh) Government can't just simply say No.

They could say no a a version of UI that didn't enshrine power sharing and an East-West dimension. Otherwise some pesky unionist would challenge them under their GFA duties

[smelmoth]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

NI did work for 50 years, for the unionist people, as it was designed to do.

It stopped "working" when those pesky taigs asked for some basic human rights such as a job, a vote and a house.

Well we have got our jobs, our votes and our houses. Let's use them votes to build something positive

[marty34]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

NI did work for 50 years, for the unionist people, as it was designed to do.

It stopped "working" when those pesky taigs asked for some basic human rights such as a job, a vote and a house.

Well we have got our jobs, our votes and our houses. Let's use them votes to build something positive

That boat has sailed. Mc Guinness did his utmost to work with the DUP - everybody knows this, even unionists but the didn't reciprocate.

ni is a failed state. Build on a deliberate Protestant majority at the start. 

You talk about we have everything now - was at City Hall.  I did the tour.  I asked the guide where was all the Irish statues etc. etc. as it was all unionist characters of the past.  No recognition of anything Irish in it.  With a sheepish head on the guide, they spouted something about a recent vote at city council about adding things to city hall.

Waffle!!!

[smelmoth]

The simple question today (this very day) is what is the point of voting SF?

NI has to be made work- can anybody sincerely say that SF or DUP is the best way to make NI work? The future can start now if people would only wake up to it

I dont buy in to that. People have tried to make it work for 100 years and it has failed. Many nationalists at this stage cant even buy in to the idea of wanting it to work. It is by every definition a failed state.

NI did work for 50 years, for the unionist people, as it was designed to do.

It stopped "working" when those pesky taigs asked for some basic human rights such as a job, a vote and a house.

Well we have got our jobs, our votes and our houses. Let's use them votes to build something positive

That boat has sailed. Mc Guinness did his utmost to work with the DUP - everybody knows this, even unionists but the didn't reciprocate.

ni is a failed state. Build on a deliberate Protestant majority at the start. 

You talk about we have everything now - was at City Hall.  I did the tour.  I asked the guide where was all the Irish statues etc. etc. as it was all unionist characters of the past.  No recognition of anything Irish in it.  With a sheepish head on the guide, they spouted something about a recent vote at city council about adding things to city hall.

Waffle!!!

DUP don't need to reciprocate. I'm not waiting around for them to reciprocate. I'm more interested in getting rid of them. We don't need SF and DUP to climb down from their red lines- we need parties with a different agenda. Parties interest in making this place work (because it isn't going away)

I didn't say we had everything. You know that. You made it up. Only you know why you made up.

Have you any interest in trying to make NI work?