A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[OgraAnDun]

http://ulster.gaa.ie/2017/03/banbridge-cuchulainns-capture-ulster-gaa-cuchulainn-cup-2017/


The GAA in Ulster are already trying to reach out in cross-community events and competitions. The biggest problem is probably the naming of GAA grounds and clubs, which is (understandably, to be fair) used as a stick to beat the GAA with and off putting for large numbers of the unionist community.

But it is ok to ask people to live in Craigavon, drive over The Queens Bridge etc...

No, but two wrongs don't make a right. I'm not saying the names should be changed, just that I can understand their reluctance/dislike.

[seafoid]

Sport has always been political for Unionism given how it defines itself as not Irish

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Football_Association

Shortly after the partition of Ireland, in 1921, the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) was established as a rival association to regulate the game in what was to become the Irish Free State. The immediate cause of the split lay in a bitter dispute over the venue for the replay of an Irish Cup match in 1921 involving Glentoran of Belfast and Shelbourne of Dublin. When the first cup match was drawn in Belfast, because of the Irish war of independence, the IFA reneged on a promise to play the replay in Dublin and scheduled the rematch again for Belfast. Shelbourne refused to comply and forfeited the Cup.[2] Such was the anger over the issue that the Leinster Football Association broke away from the IFA and formed its own national association. Those behind the FAI believed that football should be regulated by a federation based in the Irish Free State's capital, Dublin; they also accused the IFA of neglecting the development of the game in the South. The IFA's supporters argued that the federation should be based where the game was mainly played – namely Ulster, and its principal city Belfast.

Except for the fact that sports played predominantly by Protestants in NI (e.g. Rugby, cricket and hockey) are organised on an all Ireland basis.  So maybe not as political as you say.

I think scale also comes into it. NI can barely support a soccer league andinternational team but it doesn't have enough people to support the same for hockey , cricket or rugby so pragmatism won.
The relationship between unionism and nationalism over the last century has been marked by bad faith. In the same time period the NI economy collapsed. I wonder where unionism goes from here 

[AQMP]

There should be some sort of outreach program by the GAA to bring them into the fold as part of a civic movement towards a United Ireland.

Reading the remainder of this thread, if contributors here are representative of Ulster GAA then I am not sure they are best placed to reach out to unonists.

/Jim.

/Jim, have you been following the news in the North over the past couple of weeks??

[GJL]

Integrated system only way to go.

Think of 2 kids running around side by side. Neither family are church attendees and haven't been for 2 generations. At the age of 4 they get different uniforms and educated in different properties based upon the religious views of their grandparents. Total madness.

I would make integrated education the only publicly funded education system. If you want a segregated education start shaking a bucket and raise the funds. That's the way I would have it

Good job your not in charge then.....

[Farrandeelin]

An interesting view on the new 17 NI constituencies.

bangordub.wordpress.com/2018/02/01/faha-why-the-boundary-review-needs-to-be-challenged/

I thought it was a link.

[johnnycool]

As an East Coast dweller where the protestants are still very much in the majority they're very insular and unaware that in large swathes of the six counties there is huge nationalist majorities and a thriving nationalist culture that they're totally unaware and oblivious of.

For instance I was talking to a lad from Ballywalter heavily involved in youth soccer and he couldn't understand why young fellas on his team would play hurling instead of soccer as he'd to cancel one of their games as we were taking an U12 team to an indoor blitz in Magherafelt.
I had to explain to him that these lads would by and large see their senior club hurlers play and there'd be a couple of hundred at it, a family day out almost and more at club championship games and other than what they see on TV for the premiership they don't see any other soccer games, not live anyway and even those that possibly did, there would be one man and his dog watching.
I was even telling him that we'd taken them down to Croke park to see an AI hurling semi-final and there was almost 60K at it. He hadn't a clue and I'd bet is totally representative of people from those types of areas.

Time they were educated.

A bit of a broadbrush don't you think?  Most Protestants on the East Coast have a good idea about the popularity of Gaelic Games, both in NI, as well as in Ireland on the whole.
It's interesting how you equate Gaelic Games with a thriving nationalist culture.  Perhaps that's the problem.  Sport should have f-all to do with nationalism / politics.  Until times change and politics is kept out of sport, you can do all the outreach you like, but it will probably not have much impact on East Coast dwelling Protestants taking much of an interest in Gaelic Games.
Finally, you are not necessarily insular if you choose not to take an interest in something.  As someone who is interested in many sports but was not brought up to play Gaelic Sports, I have tried on many occasions to watch Gaelic Games on TV and even attended an Ulster Gaelic Football Final, but I'm afraid it just doesn't do it for me.  Would a catholic raised in NI be classed as insular in your view if they had no real knowledge or had little or no interst in sports such as hockey and cricket?

The GAA was founded for reasons not exclusively sporting, and I for one would be disappointed if it ceased to also be a cultural organisation that promoted Gaelic culture and supported the development of an inclusive Irish identity that it was originally founded to help nurture and protect.

  Would a catholic raised in NI be classed as insular in your view if they had no real knowledge or had little or no interst in sports such as hockey and cricket?

I can't speak for johnnycool, but I don't believe so, as they are minority sports on this island. They are even minority sports within the Six Counties. I think cricket is a good game, like to see Ireland do well, watch it if it's on TV and have even tried it in the past, but it's not even in the top 5 sports in the north. If it were the most popular sport in the north, or even within the unionist community, with widespread media coverage of the local game, then yes I would consider a nationalist as insular for not having any real knowledge of cricket.

As things stand, it's hardly inclusive from an "East Coast dwelling Protestant's" perspective.  Quite the opposite in fact.  As such, you cannot really accuse Protestants of insularity if they don't buy into it.
As for your second point, where Gaelic Games are minority sports in predominantly Protestant areas, by the same argument you could also say that Protestants are not being insular by having limited interest in GAA.

I'd have enough general interest in sport to know if 30 odd thousand people turned up to watch Lisnagarvey play Belfast Harlequins in an Irish cup game. I don't buy into hockey or even cricket, but am well aware of its existence and how popular it is.

Is there nationalists into sport unaware of Linfield, the Glens or Coleraine, there may be but I'd very much doubt that.

Being insular and insulated from various sports and culture isn't a one way street but lets be honest if I was to watch sport from BBC NI I'd be led to believe that Ulster rugby, soccer and motorbikes are a stable diet with gaelic football confined to the summer months.
I'd bet most sporting prods have never heard of Slaughneil yet four or five thousand would have been at their recent championship games.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

/Jim, have you been following the news in the North over the past couple of weeks??

Yes.

/Jim.

[smelmoth]

Integrated system only way to go.

Think of 2 kids running around side by side. Neither family are church attendees and haven't been for 2 generations. At the age of 4 they get different uniforms and educated in different properties based upon the religious views of their grandparents. Total madness.

I would make integrated education the only publicly funded education system. If you want a segregated education start shaking a bucket and raise the funds. That's the way I would have it

Good job your not in charge then.....

Only too well aware that I'm not in charge.

Just highlighting the insanity of the system we have

Public funds should not be used to sustain that madness

[GJL]

Integrated system only way to go.

Think of 2 kids running around side by side. Neither family are church attendees and haven't been for 2 generations. At the age of 4 they get different uniforms and educated in different properties based upon the religious views of their grandparents. Total madness.

I would make integrated education the only publicly funded education system. If you want a segregated education start shaking a bucket and raise the funds. That's the way I would have it

Good job your not in charge then.....

Only too well aware that I'm not in charge.

Just highlighting the insanity of the system we have

Public funds should not be used to sustain that madness

What about the kids who's parents do attend Mass and take their kids to mass. These parents also want their kids to attend a Catholic school. So you think these parents should have to fund the school?

[smelmoth]

Integrated system only way to go.

Think of 2 kids running around side by side. Neither family are church attendees and haven't been for 2 generations. At the age of 4 they get different uniforms and educated in different properties based upon the religious views of their grandparents. Total madness.

I would make integrated education the only publicly funded education system. If you want a segregated education start shaking a bucket and raise the funds. That's the way I would have it

Good job your not in charge then.....

Only too well aware that I'm not in charge.

Just highlighting the insanity of the system we have

Public funds should not be used to sustain that madness

What about the kids who's parents do attend Mass and take their kids to mass. These parents also want their kids to attend a Catholic school. So you think these parents should have to fund the school?

Yes.

That's the way it is in most of the western world

[general_lee]

So, all the infrastructure (im presuming) owned by the Church, all the investment, how does that get written off? How do you go about transforming 100+ Year old catholic secondary schools into intergrated ones? Do we just automatically cut off funding them?

I agree in principle with intergrated education, I just haven't seen enough in practice to support it.

[smelmoth]

So, all the infrastructure (im presuming) owned by the Church, all the investment, how does that get written off? How do you go about transforming 100+ Year old catholic secondary schools into intergrated ones? Do we just automatically cut off funding them?

I agree in principle with intergrated education, I just haven't seen enough in practice to support it.

How much are the church investing in school infrastructure?
How much is the public purse investing in school infrastructure?
Who has invested in the infrastructure to date?

Do the church really own the land, the buildings and the kit?

When a school like the Abbey in Newry move campus is it church that buy the land and fund the building and the kit/PME?

[general_lee]

So, all the infrastructure (im presuming) owned by the Church, all the investment, how does that get written off? How do you go about transforming 100+ Year old catholic secondary schools into intergrated ones? Do we just automatically cut off funding them?

I agree in principle with intergrated education, I just haven't seen enough in practice to support it.

How much are the church investing in school infrastructure?
How much is the public purse investing in school infrastructure?
Who has invested in the infrastructure to date?

Do the church really own the land, the buildings and the kit?

When a school like the Abbey in Newry move campus is it church that buy the land and fund the building and the kit/PME?

Try a school like St Colman's... just asking the question, what happens a school like that? I don't know the ins and outs of who owns what, I'd be fairly certain the church hasn't invested much into education so I don't know why you're answering my question with more questions. But with the college I'd say the Catholic Church probably owns a good bit

[GJL]

Integrated system only way to go.

Think of 2 kids running around side by side. Neither family are church attendees and haven't been for 2 generations. At the age of 4 they get different uniforms and educated in different properties based upon the religious views of their grandparents. Total madness.

I would make integrated education the only publicly funded education system. If you want a segregated education start shaking a bucket and raise the funds. That's the way I would have it

Good job your not in charge then.....

Only too well aware that I'm not in charge.

Just highlighting the insanity of the system we have

Public funds should not be used to sustain that madness

What about the kids who's parents do attend Mass and take their kids to mass. These parents also want their kids to attend a Catholic school. So you think these parents should have to fund the school?

Yes.

That's the way it is in most of the western world

It will never happen in Ireland in our life time. Gladly.

[smelmoth]

So, all the infrastructure (im presuming) owned by the Church, all the investment, how does that get written off? How do you go about transforming 100+ Year old catholic secondary schools into intergrated ones? Do we just automatically cut off funding them?

I agree in principle with intergrated education, I just haven't seen enough in practice to support it.

How much are the church investing in school infrastructure?
How much is the public purse investing in school infrastructure?
Who has invested in the infrastructure to date?

Do the church really own the land, the buildings and the kit?

When a school like the Abbey in Newry move campus is it church that buy the land and fund the building and the kit/PME?

Try a school like St Colman's... just asking the question, what happens a school like that? I don't know the ins and outs of who owns what, I'd be fairly certain the church hasn't invested much into education so I don't know why you're answering my question with more questions. But with the college I'd say the Catholic Church probably owns a good bit

Just trying to widen out the debate.

There are Trusts to hold the assets of the original church orders when an order had previously ran a school. But these would be of limited value if drained of the running costs which are the from the public purse with the exception of pupil fees already paid