Joe Brolly

[6th sam]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.

There's a problem with etymology here- the precise meaning of words. I imagine you don't wander off course and neither do I so I'll just say that people in the North take a more literal meaning out of a sentence than those in the South are inclined to do.
That's by way of saying I would never dream of expecting you to resort to name calling or of linking in with the 'cantankerous rabble' in any way.
I did ask you a direct question, "You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you? "
This was in the context of what I had been saying about the name callers and sabre rattlers that get all Nationalists a bad name down south. After all, you seem genuinely upset that southerners have a very low regard for the northern nationalists and I thought I had gone to great lengths to explain why.
So the last sentence in brackets had an emoji attached as a feeble attempt at humour- I was looking for your genuine, no nonsense reason for feeling the South didn't like all Nationaliast north of the border.
God, I thought I had gone into detail on that subject and I did say that I'd find nothing wrong with 95% or thereabouts of the Nationalist upp North. Ross gave you one good reason why people down south are fed up hearing about endless trouble in the north. Others on the board have chipped in and yet in your last sentence to me you still feel that we have an antagonist view of our fellow country men.
I don't expect the  'cantankerous rabble' to pay attention to anything I say but I expected more understanding from you. If myself, Ross and other posters haven't given you reasons aplenty, there's no point in going further.
You tell me that I am wrong in a number of cases but you failed to answer the questions I put to you every time so I could hardly be anything but wrong!
I did not ask you if you had heard of the Civil War. (Same goes for mass emigration.
In both cases I wanted to know what you knew about them.)
What I wanted to know was what you knew of the troubles the republic had gone through and did you think  the Republic should have been able, somehow, to do something for their northern brethren?
In brief, Ross have given one reason why the republic are short on sympathy for our northern fellow-country men and I have given you plenty of others. If that's not enough, there's the little matter of picking up the tab if unification ever comes to pass.  Who will pay the bills when the British depart?

Thanks for the detail.
I've made my views clear and though I have strongly held views it doesn't upset me when others hold different views, even if they are cliched as above that northerners don't do humour 😂😂.
It boils down to this , I feel that some in the south have the view, which you have articulated well, that Irish in the north should basically "suck it up" because the South had it much harder. I accept the South , to which I have strong affinity , didn't have it easy but I'd never ask you to "suck it up " . It's the same ethos that would have SF bend over backwards to remain in government with the DUP , and expect the DUP to do likewise , but woe betide any party in the South going into coalition with SF. I've had a lifetime of having to live under unionist rule here, people like Sammy Wilson
And Gregory Campbell ( if you don't know what they represent, simply google their names and "controversy".) . This DUP attitude in the North still abounds and it has turned the 6 counties into a basket case.  I never expected the south to take up arms to support the North but I would expect Southern politicians to advocate for the Irish in the north and have more empathy for our position in having to put up with DUP backwater politics. To give you a flavour of DUP politics, the south is way behind the north in vaccinations, it makes sense scientifically for the north to donate vaccines to the south and the DUP are happy to do it after everybody in the the north is vaccinated🤦🏻‍♂️. Ungenerous , Unneighbourly, anti-Irish
And unscientific , yet they can't help themselves. When northern nationalists call out this nonsense we are accused of being cantankerous by many in the south, "two sides of the same coin " etc.  You literally couldn't make it up🤦🏻‍♂️

[Lar Naparka]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.

There's a problem with etymology here- the precise meaning of words. I imagine you don't wander off course and neither do I so I'll just say that people in the North take a more literal meaning out of a sentence than those in the South are inclined to do.
That's by way of saying I would never dream of expecting you to resort to name calling or of linking in with the 'cantankerous rabble' in any way.
I did ask you a direct question, "You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you? "
This was in the context of what I had been saying about the name callers and sabre rattlers that get all Nationalists a bad name down south. After all, you seem genuinely upset that southerners have a very low regard for the northern nationalists and I thought I had gone to great lengths to explain why.
So the last sentence in brackets had an emoji attached as a feeble attempt at humour- I was looking for your genuine, no nonsense reason for feeling the South didn't like all Nationaliast north of the border.
God, I thought I had gone into detail on that subject and I did say that I'd find nothing wrong with 95% or thereabouts of the Nationalist upp North. Ross gave you one good reason why people down south are fed up hearing about endless trouble in the north. Others on the board have chipped in and yet in your last sentence to me you still feel that we have an antagonist view of our fellow country men.
I don't expect the  'cantankerous rabble' to pay attention to anything I say but I expected more understanding from you. If myself, Ross and other posters haven't given you reasons aplenty, there's no point in going further.
You tell me that I am wrong in a number of cases but you failed to answer the questions I put to you every time so I could hardly be anything but wrong!
I did not ask you if you had heard of the Civil War. (Same goes for mass emigration.
In both cases I wanted to know what you knew about them.)
What I wanted to know was what you knew of the troubles the republic had gone through and did you think  the Republic should have been able, somehow, to do something for their northern brethren?
In brief, Ross have given one reason why the republic are short on sympathy for our northern fellow-country men and I have given you plenty of others. If that's not enough, there's the little matter of picking up the tab if unification ever comes to pass.  Who will pay the bills when the British depart?

Thanks for the detail.
I've made my views clear and though I have strongly held views it doesn't upset me when others hold different views, even if they are cliched as above that northerners don't do humour 😂😂.
It boils down to this , I feel that some in the south have the view, which you have articulated well, that Irish in the north should basically "suck it up" because the South had it much harder. I accept the South , to which I have strong affinity , didn't have it easy but I'd never ask you to "suck it up " . It's the same ethos that would have SF bend over backwards to remain in government with the DUP , and expect the DUP to do likewise , but woe betide any party in the South going into coalition with SF. I've had a lifetime of having to live under unionist rule here, people like Sammy Wilson
And Gregory Campbell ( if you don't know what they represent, simply google their names and "controversy".) . This DUP attitude in the North still abounds and it has turned the 6 counties into a basket case.  I never expected the south to take up arms to support the North but I would expect Southern politicians to advocate for the Irish in the north and have more empathy for our position in having to put up with DUP backwater politics. To give you a flavour of DUP politics, the south is way behind the north in vaccinations, it makes sense scientifically for the north to donate vaccines to the south and the DUP are happy to do it after everybody in the the north is vaccinated🤦🏻‍♂️. Ungenerous , Unneighbourly, anti-Irish
And unscientific , yet they can't help themselves. When northern nationalists call out this nonsense we are accused of being cantankerous by many in the south, "two sides of the same coin " etc.  You literally couldn't make it up🤦🏻‍♂️

Thanks for the reply as I now have a clearer understanding of the issues that upset you.
The Unionist issue hasn't come into our discussion until now but really that is the proverbial elephant in the room- for a large element down here.
We are all afraid to some degree that there could well be a violent loyalist backlash. It makes no sense to say that the UDA/UDF and their myriad of splinter groups will meekly accept unification..
Yes, there are genuine fears of a violent loyalist reaction down here and more bombs could be exploded in Dublin and Monaghan and other places as well.
Throw in the incessant moaning from a small but noisy faction within the Nationalist community and the recipe for warfare is there. I am saying that this is a genuine fear of many southerners and the possibility that there won't be a counter reaction from IRA splinter groups can't be discounted.
It is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in a manner of speaking and by that I mean, it is inevitable that many will assume that all Nationalists refuse to be satisfied about anyone or anything south of the border.
Take the Irish Language Act for instance. From our perspective, there's  much sectarian dogfighting over this. Yet, if there is a referendum in the near future and there is a vote for unity, what Arlene and her diehards think won't matter anymore. Irish was never officially recognised in the north so why not wait a wee bit longer?
Another big fear is that the cost of integrating the north will be ruinous.  I'd imagine that helping our fellow countrymen would not be a big concern but paying the dole money to the loyalists who hate our guts might be a problem for some. Then add in the 2% or so of the aggro boys on 'your side' and you should realise that we have little enthusiasm at the prospect of the likely trouble spilling across the border.

[Applesisapples]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

To be fair I have stated very clearly that as a Northern Nationalist I do not believe that the south could have done anything to help, other than take us in when necessary. Now in my 60's I was brought up to regard the Irish Government and state as mine. We read the Irish/Sunday Press and listened to RTE radio. I don't and never did have any allegiance to NI, it was theirs. Don't tar most nationalist with the ignorant rantings of the few. there is a chance now for a new beginning but those on here throwing insults at everyone who does not conform to their idea of a UI, calling people free staters or lickspittles are not representative and make unity harder to sell. That is not to excuse some of the ignorant commentary on here from southern posters.

[Applesisapples]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.

There's a problem with etymology here- the precise meaning of words. I imagine you don't wander off course and neither do I so I'll just say that people in the North take a more literal meaning out of a sentence than those in the South are inclined to do.
That's by way of saying I would never dream of expecting you to resort to name calling or of linking in with the 'cantankerous rabble' in any way.
I did ask you a direct question, "You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you? "
This was in the context of what I had been saying about the name callers and sabre rattlers that get all Nationalists a bad name down south. After all, you seem genuinely upset that southerners have a very low regard for the northern nationalists and I thought I had gone to great lengths to explain why.
So the last sentence in brackets had an emoji attached as a feeble attempt at humour- I was looking for your genuine, no nonsense reason for feeling the South didn't like all Nationaliast north of the border.
God, I thought I had gone into detail on that subject and I did say that I'd find nothing wrong with 95% or thereabouts of the Nationalist upp North. Ross gave you one good reason why people down south are fed up hearing about endless trouble in the north. Others on the board have chipped in and yet in your last sentence to me you still feel that we have an antagonist view of our fellow country men.
I don't expect the  'cantankerous rabble' to pay attention to anything I say but I expected more understanding from you. If myself, Ross and other posters haven't given you reasons aplenty, there's no point in going further.
You tell me that I am wrong in a number of cases but you failed to answer the questions I put to you every time so I could hardly be anything but wrong!
I did not ask you if you had heard of the Civil War. (Same goes for mass emigration.
In both cases I wanted to know what you knew about them.)
What I wanted to know was what you knew of the troubles the republic had gone through and did you think  the Republic should have been able, somehow, to do something for their northern brethren?
In brief, Ross have given one reason why the republic are short on sympathy for our northern fellow-country men and I have given you plenty of others. If that's not enough, there's the little matter of picking up the tab if unification ever comes to pass.  Who will pay the bills when the British depart?

Thanks for the detail.
I've made my views clear and though I have strongly held views it doesn't upset me when others hold different views, even if they are cliched as above that northerners don't do humour 😂😂.
It boils down to this , I feel that some in the south have the view, which you have articulated well, that Irish in the north should basically "suck it up" because the South had it much harder. I accept the South , to which I have strong affinity , didn't have it easy but I'd never ask you to "suck it up " . It's the same ethos that would have SF bend over backwards to remain in government with the DUP , and expect the DUP to do likewise , but woe betide any party in the South going into coalition with SF. I've had a lifetime of having to live under unionist rule here, people like Sammy Wilson
And Gregory Campbell ( if you don't know what they represent, simply google their names and "controversy".) . This DUP attitude in the North still abounds and it has turned the 6 counties into a basket case.  I never expected the south to take up arms to support the North but I would expect Southern politicians to advocate for the Irish in the north and have more empathy for our position in having to put up with DUP backwater politics. To give you a flavour of DUP politics, the south is way behind the north in vaccinations, it makes sense scientifically for the north to donate vaccines to the south and the DUP are happy to do it after everybody in the the north is vaccinated🤦🏻‍♂️. Ungenerous , Unneighbourly, anti-Irish
And unscientific , yet they can't help themselves. When northern nationalists call out this nonsense we are accused of being cantankerous by many in the south, "two sides of the same coin " etc.  You literally couldn't make it up🤦🏻‍♂️

I can't disagree with most of this, DUP attitude to the south summed up yesterday by Campbell on talkback laughing at the south being shafted on vaccines by the EU and lauding the UK. He's too biased to realise that by not vaccinating the people living in Donegal a few miles down the road jeopardises us all.

[6th sam]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.

There's a problem with etymology here- the precise meaning of words. I imagine you don't wander off course and neither do I so I'll just say that people in the North take a more literal meaning out of a sentence than those in the South are inclined to do.
That's by way of saying I would never dream of expecting you to resort to name calling or of linking in with the 'cantankerous rabble' in any way.
I did ask you a direct question, "You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you? "
This was in the context of what I had been saying about the name callers and sabre rattlers that get all Nationalists a bad name down south. After all, you seem genuinely upset that southerners have a very low regard for the northern nationalists and I thought I had gone to great lengths to explain why.
So the last sentence in brackets had an emoji attached as a feeble attempt at humour- I was looking for your genuine, no nonsense reason for feeling the South didn't like all Nationaliast north of the border.
God, I thought I had gone into detail on that subject and I did say that I'd find nothing wrong with 95% or thereabouts of the Nationalist upp North. Ross gave you one good reason why people down south are fed up hearing about endless trouble in the north. Others on the board have chipped in and yet in your last sentence to me you still feel that we have an antagonist view of our fellow country men.
I don't expect the  'cantankerous rabble' to pay attention to anything I say but I expected more understanding from you. If myself, Ross and other posters haven't given you reasons aplenty, there's no point in going further.
You tell me that I am wrong in a number of cases but you failed to answer the questions I put to you every time so I could hardly be anything but wrong!
I did not ask you if you had heard of the Civil War. (Same goes for mass emigration.
In both cases I wanted to know what you knew about them.)
What I wanted to know was what you knew of the troubles the republic had gone through and did you think  the Republic should have been able, somehow, to do something for their northern brethren?
In brief, Ross have given one reason why the republic are short on sympathy for our northern fellow-country men and I have given you plenty of others. If that's not enough, there's the little matter of picking up the tab if unification ever comes to pass.  Who will pay the bills when the British depart?

Thanks for the detail.
I've made my views clear and though I have strongly held views it doesn't upset me when others hold different views, even if they are cliched as above that northerners don't do humour 😂😂.
It boils down to this , I feel that some in the south have the view, which you have articulated well, that Irish in the north should basically "suck it up" because the South had it much harder. I accept the South , to which I have strong affinity , didn't have it easy but I'd never ask you to "suck it up " . It's the same ethos that would have SF bend over backwards to remain in government with the DUP , and expect the DUP to do likewise , but woe betide any party in the South going into coalition with SF. I've had a lifetime of having to live under unionist rule here, people like Sammy Wilson
And Gregory Campbell ( if you don't know what they represent, simply google their names and "controversy".) . This DUP attitude in the North still abounds and it has turned the 6 counties into a basket case.  I never expected the south to take up arms to support the North but I would expect Southern politicians to advocate for the Irish in the north and have more empathy for our position in having to put up with DUP backwater politics. To give you a flavour of DUP politics, the south is way behind the north in vaccinations, it makes sense scientifically for the north to donate vaccines to the south and the DUP are happy to do it after everybody in the the north is vaccinated🤦🏻‍♂️. Ungenerous , Unneighbourly, anti-Irish
And unscientific , yet they can't help themselves. When northern nationalists call out this nonsense we are accused of being cantankerous by many in the south, "two sides of the same coin " etc.  You literally couldn't make it up🤦🏻‍♂️

Thanks for the reply as I now have a clearer understanding of the issues that upset you.
The Unionist issue hasn't come into our discussion until now but really that is the proverbial elephant in the room- for a large element down here.
We are all afraid to some degree that there could well be a violent loyalist backlash. It makes no sense to say that the UDA/UDF and their myriad of splinter groups will meekly accept unification..
Yes, there are genuine fears of a violent loyalist reaction down here and more bombs could be exploded in Dublin and Monaghan and other places as well.
Throw in the incessant moaning from a small but noisy faction within the Nationalist community and the recipe for warfare is there. I am saying that this is a genuine fear of many southerners and the possibility that there won't be a counter reaction from IRA splinter groups can't be discounted.
It is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in a manner of speaking and by that I mean, it is inevitable that many will assume that all Nationalists refuse to be satisfied about anyone or anything south of the border.
Take the Irish Language Act for instance. From our perspective, there's  much sectarian dogfighting over this. Yet, if there is a referendum in the near future and there is a vote for unity, what Arlene and her diehards think won't matter anymore. Irish was never officially recognised in the north so why not wait a wee bit longer?
Another big fear is that the cost of integrating the north will be ruinous.  I'd imagine that helping our fellow countrymen would not be a big concern but paying the dole money to the loyalists who hate our guts might be a problem for some. Then add in the 2% or so of the aggro boys on 'your side' and you should realise that we have little enthusiasm at the prospect of the likely trouble spilling across the border.

All good points.

So Tbf,  your bottom line is we should "just suck it up"

[6th sam]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

To be fair I have stated very clearly that as a Northern Nationalist I do not believe that the south could have done anything to help, other than take us in when necessary. Now in my 60's I was brought up to regard the Irish Government and state as mine. We read the Irish/Sunday Press and listened to RTE radio. I don't and never did have any allegiance to NI, it was theirs. Don't tar most nationalist with the ignorant rantings of the few. there is a chance now for a new beginning but those on here throwing insults at everyone who does not conform to their idea of a UI, calling people free staters or lickspittles are not representative and make unity harder to sell. That is not to excuse some of the ignorant commentary on here from southern posters.

Totally agree with most of that, And that's representative of most Irish "up here" . That's why we understandably find the"suck it up" attitude from some , offensive

[Silver hill]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.

There's a problem with etymology here- the precise meaning of words. I imagine you don't wander off course and neither do I so I'll just say that people in the North take a more literal meaning out of a sentence than those in the South are inclined to do.
That's by way of saying I would never dream of expecting you to resort to name calling or of linking in with the 'cantankerous rabble' in any way.
I did ask you a direct question, "You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you? "
This was in the context of what I had been saying about the name callers and sabre rattlers that get all Nationalists a bad name down south. After all, you seem genuinely upset that southerners have a very low regard for the northern nationalists and I thought I had gone to great lengths to explain why.
So the last sentence in brackets had an emoji attached as a feeble attempt at humour- I was looking for your genuine, no nonsense reason for feeling the South didn't like all Nationaliast north of the border.
God, I thought I had gone into detail on that subject and I did say that I'd find nothing wrong with 95% or thereabouts of the Nationalist upp North. Ross gave you one good reason why people down south are fed up hearing about endless trouble in the north. Others on the board have chipped in and yet in your last sentence to me you still feel that we have an antagonist view of our fellow country men.
I don't expect the  'cantankerous rabble' to pay attention to anything I say but I expected more understanding from you. If myself, Ross and other posters haven't given you reasons aplenty, there's no point in going further.
You tell me that I am wrong in a number of cases but you failed to answer the questions I put to you every time so I could hardly be anything but wrong!
I did not ask you if you had heard of the Civil War. (Same goes for mass emigration.
In both cases I wanted to know what you knew about them.)
What I wanted to know was what you knew of the troubles the republic had gone through and did you think  the Republic should have been able, somehow, to do something for their northern brethren?
In brief, Ross have given one reason why the republic are short on sympathy for our northern fellow-country men and I have given you plenty of others. If that's not enough, there's the little matter of picking up the tab if unification ever comes to pass.  Who will pay the bills when the British depart?

Thanks for the detail.
I've made my views clear and though I have strongly held views it doesn't upset me when others hold different views, even if they are cliched as above that northerners don't do humour 😂😂.
It boils down to this , I feel that some in the south have the view, which you have articulated well, that Irish in the north should basically "suck it up" because the South had it much harder. I accept the South , to which I have strong affinity , didn't have it easy but I'd never ask you to "suck it up " . It's the same ethos that would have SF bend over backwards to remain in government with the DUP , and expect the DUP to do likewise , but woe betide any party in the South going into coalition with SF. I've had a lifetime of having to live under unionist rule here, people like Sammy Wilson
And Gregory Campbell ( if you don't know what they represent, simply google their names and "controversy".) . This DUP attitude in the North still abounds and it has turned the 6 counties into a basket case.  I never expected the south to take up arms to support the North but I would expect Southern politicians to advocate for the Irish in the north and have more empathy for our position in having to put up with DUP backwater politics. To give you a flavour of DUP politics, the south is way behind the north in vaccinations, it makes sense scientifically for the north to donate vaccines to the south and the DUP are happy to do it after everybody in the the north is vaccinated🤦🏻‍♂️. Ungenerous , Unneighbourly, anti-Irish
And unscientific , yet they can't help themselves. When northern nationalists call out this nonsense we are accused of being cantankerous by many in the south, "two sides of the same coin " etc.  You literally couldn't make it up🤦🏻‍♂️

I can't disagree with most of this, DUP attitude to the south summed up yesterday by Campbell on talkback laughing at the south being shafted on vaccines by the EU and lauding the UK. He's too biased to realise that by not vaccinating the people living in Donegal a few miles down the road jeopardises us all.

That's the problem right there, for too long, naked, blatant sectarian comments have been accepted as the norm. Brolly doesn't and didn't last Monday night. Yet what happens, he gets out on the naughty step. His subsequent article on how the DUP bringing God into their argument has them on the back foot from the start. Flat earth, evangelical nonsense. And here's the real crux of it, a large proportion of northern Protestants are brought up to believe that Catholics are actually inferior and to be treated like shite on the sole of your shoe. Their mantra, 'we are the people'.
Slowly, since the 60s, with the advent of a vote, the education act and equal rights for employment, the perception is that the Protestant state for a Protestant people is being slowly eroded. Parity of esteem is a last resort.
Nationalists were able to eventually get off their knees financially and it now sticks in the craw. Bastions of unionism in education like Methodist College and Belfast Royal are now 50/50. Ravenhill is no longer exclusively unionist. City Hall no longer flies the Union Jack. Property and land that was traditionally Protestant owned is now more than likely to be bought by a catholic. The only 'culture' they have left to cling onto is norn iron soccer and god forbid, the orange order. Sadly, a shared space for all is still a generation away at least.

[6th sam]

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.)

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.

There's a problem with etymology here- the precise meaning of words. I imagine you don't wander off course and neither do I so I'll just say that people in the North take a more literal meaning out of a sentence than those in the South are inclined to do.
That's by way of saying I would never dream of expecting you to resort to name calling or of linking in with the 'cantankerous rabble' in any way.
I did ask you a direct question, "You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you? "
This was in the context of what I had been saying about the name callers and sabre rattlers that get all Nationalists a bad name down south. After all, you seem genuinely upset that southerners have a very low regard for the northern nationalists and I thought I had gone to great lengths to explain why.
So the last sentence in brackets had an emoji attached as a feeble attempt at humour- I was looking for your genuine, no nonsense reason for feeling the South didn't like all Nationaliast north of the border.
God, I thought I had gone into detail on that subject and I did say that I'd find nothing wrong with 95% or thereabouts of the Nationalist upp North. Ross gave you one good reason why people down south are fed up hearing about endless trouble in the north. Others on the board have chipped in and yet in your last sentence to me you still feel that we have an antagonist view of our fellow country men.
I don't expect the  'cantankerous rabble' to pay attention to anything I say but I expected more understanding from you. If myself, Ross and other posters haven't given you reasons aplenty, there's no point in going further.
You tell me that I am wrong in a number of cases but you failed to answer the questions I put to you every time so I could hardly be anything but wrong!
I did not ask you if you had heard of the Civil War. (Same goes for mass emigration.
In both cases I wanted to know what you knew about them.)
What I wanted to know was what you knew of the troubles the republic had gone through and did you think  the Republic should have been able, somehow, to do something for their northern brethren?
In brief, Ross have given one reason why the republic are short on sympathy for our northern fellow-country men and I have given you plenty of others. If that's not enough, there's the little matter of picking up the tab if unification ever comes to pass.  Who will pay the bills when the British depart?

Thanks for the detail.
I've made my views clear and though I have strongly held views it doesn't upset me when others hold different views, even if they are cliched as above that northerners don't do humour 😂😂.
It boils down to this , I feel that some in the south have the view, which you have articulated well, that Irish in the north should basically "suck it up" because the South had it much harder. I accept the South , to which I have strong affinity , didn't have it easy but I'd never ask you to "suck it up " . It's the same ethos that would have SF bend over backwards to remain in government with the DUP , and expect the DUP to do likewise , but woe betide any party in the South going into coalition with SF. I've had a lifetime of having to live under unionist rule here, people like Sammy Wilson
And Gregory Campbell ( if you don't know what they represent, simply google their names and "controversy".) . This DUP attitude in the North still abounds and it has turned the 6 counties into a basket case.  I never expected the south to take up arms to support the North but I would expect Southern politicians to advocate for the Irish in the north and have more empathy for our position in having to put up with DUP backwater politics. To give you a flavour of DUP politics, the south is way behind the north in vaccinations, it makes sense scientifically for the north to donate vaccines to the south and the DUP are happy to do it after everybody in the the north is vaccinated🤦🏻‍♂️. Ungenerous , Unneighbourly, anti-Irish
And unscientific , yet they can't help themselves. When northern nationalists call out this nonsense we are accused of being cantankerous by many in the south, "two sides of the same coin " etc.  You literally couldn't make it up🤦🏻‍♂️

I can't disagree with most of this, DUP attitude to the south summed up yesterday by Campbell on talkback laughing at the south being shafted on vaccines by the EU and lauding the UK. He's too biased to realise that by not vaccinating the people living in Donegal a few miles down the road jeopardises us all.

Exactly, gloating about Uk being ahead of EU , and getting the boot into the south even though scientifically it makes no sense not to have an all-ireland approach. That unscientific, unneighbourly ungenerous , anti-Irish behaviour is what we have to deal with on a daily basis. Ironically we had to leave the EU against the wishes of the majority here, but we should continue to "suck it up" and keep our heads down, according to some in the south 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Rossfan]

Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up"
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.

[Lar Naparka]

Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up"
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.

Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?

[Rossfan]

Not forgetting the 1985 Anglo Irish agreement when the Brits at last publicly recognised that the 6 Cos were not "as British as Finchley".
Took a lot of effort to get them to that point.
Unionism of course went ballistic but unlike the cowardly British Government of 1974 Thatcher ignored their protests.

[bigarsedkeeper]

Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up"
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.

Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?

Surely you're not writing John Hume out of all of that and letting Bertie take all the credit?

[Angelo]

So what I gauge from the likes of Lar and Rossfan is that the Free State are too god damn arrogant to confront their past and acknowledge they abandoned their northern brethren and refuse to say it was wrong.

Only a partitionist would get upset at the term free state.

There are two states on this island - The Occupied 6 up north and the southern Free State. If you to rewrite history and pretend that northern nationalists brought 100 years of sectarian strife on themselves then I think it shows the type of shame you guys are unwilling to confront.

[Rossfan]

Yes Keeper, John Hume talking to Gerry Adams in 1988 started the reigning in of the Provos and bringing them "into the tent".
How he was vilified by the small minded at the time!!

[6th sam]

Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up"
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.

I think you'll agree from my posts over the years, that  I'm not a negative person , and I recognise the role of many in the South. I disagree with Angelo's aggressive approach, and Tbf I have got on with life ( though I haven't suffered as much as others) , but how do you propose we don't let bigots have their way? We criticise and confront  the DUP and we're accused of being cantankerous agitators....."you're all the same up there".
My solution as stated on many occasions is to focus on selling an all-island solution , to both sides of the border. This will have to include a British component or we run the risk of ~15% of the population of the island (British) being marginalised. Now as it stands ~15 % of the population of the island ( Irish in the north)  are currently marginalised, but apparently that's fair enough.
There are differences on both sides of the border and both could learn from each other, but this involves mutual respect and a willingness to listen, learn and show empathy.
The reason why I introduced the phrase "suck it up" is because that's what we have done for years, but   Leaving the EU and further economic deterioration here, is actually galling for me. I'm not asking for troops at the border , I'm not asking for economic sacrifices , I'm only asking for a recognition that the Irish in the North continue to live under the control of what many consider one of the most backward parties in the "developed world". It's bad enough having to put up with it, but when your fellow countrymen criticise you for challenging these dinosaurs with the "one's as bad as the other" accusation , it's offensive. That said, ironically  , I can understand why many of my friends and workmates would vote DUP, as they are the largest unionist party and are therefore viewed as best placed to maintain the union. What so-called "nationalists" ( don't like that word) , north and south have failed to do is present , cost , and sell an all-island alternative that respects all sides, and finally marginalises DUP bully boy tactics. The way to deal with bullies is to face up to them with a unified approach to marginalise them and hopefully change their ways. Unfortunately Some here appear happier , on the other hand to marginalise those who confront DUP behaviour .