2017 Season - Where are we at?

[mrhardyannual]

Where are we at?
Probably pretty close to where everyone expected. Armagh and Roscommon(to a lesser degree as they were given an easy route to Connacht final) are probably the surprise packets of the seven teams still standing and Donegal the main losers. Could still end up with Dublin/Tyrone v Kerry/Mayo which was "rogha na coitianta" in most predictions.

[seafoid]

It's looking more and more like another Dublin v Kerry final with very predictable lineups in the semi.
For the past number of years it's nearly always Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and AN Other and this year it's looking no different.

So Kerry make it into another semifinal with a facile win again in the quarter.
When was the last time they met someone who gave them a game in the quarter? Was it Down 2010?

The last five years they've had...
2013 beat Cavan  0.15 - 0.09
2014 beat Galway 1.20 - 2.10
2015 beat Kildare  7.16 - 0.10
2016 beat Clare     2.16 - 0.11
2017 beat Galway  1.18 - 0.13

With Mayo struggling to get back to good form you would imagine Kerry will have had another easy path to the final.

Dublin having introduced a lot of their younger B team for most of the year so far and so will be very fresh when they meet Armagh or Tyrone should they overcome Monaghan who haven't won a AI quarterfinal before.
I have enjoyed the season so far and especially the 4 games I watched last weekend in Croker but I can help buy feeling it's all been a side show to the main events coming in late Aug and Sept.

I think pre August is like a separate competition.
And the qualifiers reinforce the power structure.

[Ball Hopper]

Since the qualifiers began in 2001, a total of 15 different counties have had at least one semi-final appearance.  That is a fair spread of counties.  Therefore, most counties outside the top 6 or 8 should have a 3-5 year plan to get to a semi-final.  If that means getting to Div 1 or top half of Div 2 first, that is fine - in fact, that would seem to be the first target, then look for championship success.

How many counties have a 3-5 year plan that is available to all and sundry, for both hurling and football?

For example, Dublin Strategic Plan 2011-2017 says:

"Set key performance targets for the inter-county teams at all age levels in both codes.

Win a Senior football All-Ireland every 3 years.
Win Senior All-Ireland Hurling Final every 5 years.
Win one Minor All-Ireland Football and one Minor All-Ireland Hurling title every 3 years.
Win one U21 All-Ireland Football and one U21 All-Ireland Hurling titles every 5 years."

Irrespective of what was actually achieved, these are noble goals.  Setting realistic goals might be a problem for some counties though.

[seafoid]

Since the qualifiers began in 2001, a total of 15 different counties have had at least one semi-final appearance.  That is a fair spread of counties.  Therefore, most counties outside the top 6 or 8 should have a 3-5 year plan to get to a semi-final.  If that means getting to Div 1 or top half of Div 2 first, that is fine - in fact, that would seem to be the first target, then look for championship success.

How many counties have a 3-5 year plan that is available to all and sundry, for both hurling and football?

For example, Dublin Strategic Plan 2011-2017 says:

"Set key performance targets for the inter-county teams at all age levels in both codes.

Win a Senior football All-Ireland every 3 years.
Win Senior All-Ireland Hurling Final every 5 years.
Win one Minor All-Ireland Football and one Minor All-Ireland Hurling title every 3 years.
Win one U21 All-Ireland Football and one U21 All-Ireland Hurling titles every 5 years."

Irrespective of what was actually achieved, these are noble goals.  Setting realistic goals might be a problem for some counties though.

ConsiderIng 17 or 18 counties have won all Irelands 15 isn't a great return.

By default you would expect Dublin, Meath, Kildare, ,Kerry , Cork, Mayo, Galway and at least 3 Ulster counties.
How.many counties reached their first semi in that time , other than Fermanagh ?

[Rossfan]

And your solution Seafóidín?

[Syferus]

Nearly all the exciting games this year involved Connacht teams.

[Ball Hopper]

Since the qualifiers began in 2001, a total of 15 different counties have had at least one semi-final appearance.  That is a fair spread of counties.  Therefore, most counties outside the top 6 or 8 should have a 3-5 year plan to get to a semi-final.  If that means getting to Div 1 or top half of Div 2 first, that is fine - in fact, that would seem to be the first target, then look for championship success.

How many counties have a 3-5 year plan that is available to all and sundry, for both hurling and football?

For example, Dublin Strategic Plan 2011-2017 says:

"Set key performance targets for the inter-county teams at all age levels in both codes.

Win a Senior football All-Ireland every 3 years.
Win Senior All-Ireland Hurling Final every 5 years.
Win one Minor All-Ireland Football and one Minor All-Ireland Hurling title every 3 years.
Win one U21 All-Ireland Football and one U21 All-Ireland Hurling titles every 5 years."

Irrespective of what was actually achieved, these are noble goals.  Setting realistic goals might be a problem for some counties though.

ConsiderIng 17 or 18 counties have won all Irelands 15 isn't a great return.

By default you would expect Dublin, Meath, Kildare, ,Kerry , Cork, Mayo, Galway and at least 3 Ulster counties.
How.many counties reached their first semi in that time , other than Fermanagh ?

Since 2001, only 7 counties have won Sam and that is the era of qualifiers. 

Of the counties you mention under the phrase "you would expect...", note that Galway and Kildare have exactly one semi-final appearance each since 2001 (as have Down, Fermanagh, Tipperary and Wexford) and Meath have 3.  Derry have 2, Donegal 4 and Tyrone 6.

Obviously, some counties would be disappointed with a mere semi-final appearance, but others would see it as a great achievement.  Ambitions would vary greatly.  For example, Kerry hurling target in 2010 was "to participate in the All-Ireland Hurling Championship"...a goal achieved with a lot of good work, but Kilkenny would hardly call that progress from where they are standing at the beginning of any year, let alone 5 years.

By the way, there are 9 counties who failed to make a football quarter-final since the qualifiers began in 2001.  Surely "getting to at least one quarter-final" in 3-5 years should be the goal of Antrim, Carlow, Leitrim, London, Longford, Louth, Offaly, Waterford and Wicklow?

Small steps with realistic goals and continuous improvement for any person, team, county or even company sounds reasonable to me.

[seafoid]

Since the qualifiers began in 2001, a total of 15 different counties have had at least one semi-final appearance.  That is a fair spread of counties.  Therefore, most counties outside the top 6 or 8 should have a 3-5 year plan to get to a semi-final.  If that means getting to Div 1 or top half of Div 2 first, that is fine - in fact, that would seem to be the first target, then look for championship success.

How many counties have a 3-5 year plan that is available to all and sundry, for both hurling and football?

For example, Dublin Strategic Plan 2011-2017 says:

"Set key performance targets for the inter-county teams at all age levels in both codes.

Win a Senior football All-Ireland every 3 years.
Win Senior All-Ireland Hurling Final every 5 years.
Win one Minor All-Ireland Football and one Minor All-Ireland Hurling title every 3 years.
Win one U21 All-Ireland Football and one U21 All-Ireland Hurling titles every 5 years."

Irrespective of what was actually achieved, these are noble goals.  Setting realistic goals might be a problem for some counties though.

ConsiderIng 17 or 18 counties have won all Irelands 15 isn't a great return.

By default you would expect Dublin, Meath, Kildare, ,Kerry , Cork, Mayo, Galway and at least 3 Ulster counties.
How.many counties reached their first semi in that time , other than Fermanagh ?

Since 2001, only 7 counties have won Sam and that is the era of qualifiers. 

Of the counties you mention under the phrase "you would expect...", note that Galway and Kildare have exactly one semi-final appearance each since 2001 (as have Down, Fermanagh, Tipperary and Wexford) and Meath have 3.  Derry have 2, Donegal 4 and Tyrone 6.

Obviously, some counties would be disappointed with a mere semi-final appearance, but others would see it as a great achievement.  Ambitions would vary greatly.  For example, Kerry hurling target in 2010 was "to participate in the All-Ireland Hurling Championship"...a goal achieved with a lot of good work, but Kilkenny would hardly call that progress from where they are standing at the beginning of any year, let alone 5 years.

By the way, there are 9 counties who failed to make a football quarter-final since the qualifiers began in 2001.  Surely "getting to at least one quarter-final" in 3-5 years should be the goal of Antrim, Carlow, Leitrim, London, Longford, Louth, Offaly, Waterford and Wicklow?

Small steps with realistic goals and continuous improvement for any person, team, county or even company sounds reasonable to me.

The problem in Gaelic going back years is the dominance of Kerry and Dublin. The qualifiers didn't address this. It was great that Fermanagh, Tipp and Wexford got to semis but it wasnt sustained. The qualifiers are conservative.

[Ball Hopper]

Since the qualifiers began in 2001, a total of 15 different counties have had at least one semi-final appearance.  That is a fair spread of counties.  Therefore, most counties outside the top 6 or 8 should have a 3-5 year plan to get to a semi-final.  If that means getting to Div 1 or top half of Div 2 first, that is fine - in fact, that would seem to be the first target, then look for championship success.

How many counties have a 3-5 year plan that is available to all and sundry, for both hurling and football?

For example, Dublin Strategic Plan 2011-2017 says:

"Set key performance targets for the inter-county teams at all age levels in both codes.

Win a Senior football All-Ireland every 3 years.
Win Senior All-Ireland Hurling Final every 5 years.
Win one Minor All-Ireland Football and one Minor All-Ireland Hurling title every 3 years.
Win one U21 All-Ireland Football and one U21 All-Ireland Hurling titles every 5 years."

Irrespective of what was actually achieved, these are noble goals.  Setting realistic goals might be a problem for some counties though.

ConsiderIng 17 or 18 counties have won all Irelands 15 isn't a great return.

By default you would expect Dublin, Meath, Kildare, ,Kerry , Cork, Mayo, Galway and at least 3 Ulster counties.
How.many counties reached their first semi in that time , other than Fermanagh ?

Since 2001, only 7 counties have won Sam and that is the era of qualifiers. 

Of the counties you mention under the phrase "you would expect...", note that Galway and Kildare have exactly one semi-final appearance each since 2001 (as have Down, Fermanagh, Tipperary and Wexford) and Meath have 3.  Derry have 2, Donegal 4 and Tyrone 6.

Obviously, some counties would be disappointed with a mere semi-final appearance, but others would see it as a great achievement.  Ambitions would vary greatly.  For example, Kerry hurling target in 2010 was "to participate in the All-Ireland Hurling Championship"...a goal achieved with a lot of good work, but Kilkenny would hardly call that progress from where they are standing at the beginning of any year, let alone 5 years.

By the way, there are 9 counties who failed to make a football quarter-final since the qualifiers began in 2001.  Surely "getting to at least one quarter-final" in 3-5 years should be the goal of Antrim, Carlow, Leitrim, London, Longford, Louth, Offaly, Waterford and Wicklow?

Small steps with realistic goals and continuous improvement for any person, team, county or even company sounds reasonable to me.

The problem in Gaelic going back years is the dominance of Kerry and Dublin. The qualifiers didn't address this. It was great that Fermanagh, Tipp and Wexford got to semis but it wasnt sustained. The qualifiers are conservative.

The 16 years prior to the qualifiers (1985-2000 incl) were not in the period of Kerry/Dublin dominance.  I will get data on number of different winners, beaten finalist, and beaten semi-finalists later.  A comparison between 1985-2000 and 2001-2016 regarding numbers of different counties making a semi-final might be interesting.

[seafoid]

Sounds interesting.
In the big picture the only change since the qfs were introduced was zArmagh and Tyrone finally winning

[Ball Hopper]

Sounds interesting.
In the big picture the only change since the qfs were introduced was zArmagh and Tyrone finally winning

The 16 years prior to 2000 saw Derry and Donegal breaking through, so that cancels any argument that the qualifiers caused anything new to happen.

[sid waddell]

Between 1969 and 1986 inclusive, just four counties won the All-Ireland.

Between 1958 and 1991 inclusive, just seven won it.

The 1990s were an aberration.

[Ball Hopper]

Comparing the 16 years pre-qualifiers (1985-2000 incl) and the 16 years of qualifiers thus far (2001-2016 incl) regarding number of counties at various stages of the All-Ireland:

Number of different champions:  8 pre-qualifiers; 7 in qualifiers era

Number of different finalists: 11 pre-qualifiers; 10 in qualifiers era

Number of different semi-finalists:  18 pre-qualifiers; 15 in qualifiers era.

So it seems the data suggests there is not an expansion of progression.  The shock results in the pre-qualifiers era have been replaced to allow the loser to regroup and get back in via the back door.  Is this good?

As Sid point out, the 16 years from 1969 to 1984 will have different results.

[Rossfan]

What are ye trying to prove?
What's it all got to do with the exciting 2017 season?
2017 - Tyrone best in Ulster again, Down regain some self respect, Armagh and Monaghan recover from Down defeats and will feel good about being Qtr Finalists. Cavan and Donegal major disappointments.
Dublin stroll Leinster, bit of a stir in Kildare but a long way to go, Meath a long way off. Rest -God help us but  a bit of romance for Carlow.
Kerry stroll Munster, Cork regain self respect v Rhubarbia. Tipp ruined by injuries etc and Clare do as well as could be expected.
Roscommon emerge from  years of darkness, fancy dans found wanting again while the Rhubarbs are dead but the hoors just won't lie down and accept it.

[Ball Hopper]

Comparing the 16 years pre-qualifiers (1985-2000 incl) and the 16 years of qualifiers thus far (2001-2016 incl) regarding number of counties at various stages of the All-Ireland:

Number of different champions:  8 pre-qualifiers; 7 in qualifiers era

Number of different finalists: 11 pre-qualifiers; 10 in qualifiers era

Number of different semi-finalists:  18 pre-qualifiers; 15 in qualifiers era.

So it seems the data suggests there is not an expansion of progression.  The shock results in the pre-qualifiers era have been replaced to allow the loser to regroup and get back in via the back door.  Is this good?

As Sid point out, the 16 years from 1969 to 1984 will have different results.

1969-1984 data:

Number of different champions:  4 (Cork, Dublin, Kerry Offaly)

Number of different AI finalists:  8 (Armagh, Cork, Dublin, Galway, Kerry, Meath, Offaly, Roscommon)

Number of different AI semi-finalists:  16