Author Topic: Gooch Retires  (Read 7909 times)

Syferus

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #210 on: April 13, 2017, 01:38:32 AM »
The problem is he is getting all these plaudits! Has this Kerry team not been put on a pedestal as the best team of that decade? Surely playing on a team with such stature should make it easier to be a person to drive on a team. How in that case when games were tight did they not eek out a win once? Look nobody is saying he was to blame for Kerry losing. Just he was not involved in upping the anti and eeking out a win from the Jaws of defeat. There is no doubting his skill, composure, brain. Just he did not have the full package.

Tomas was asked to name a game where he pulled them out of the fire. Plámás just looked ahead, he could not name one. It was not as if he was caught off guard. He would have been well prompted on the subject before the show began.

I can't remember the details of who scored what but I'm sure if you go back and look at some of the tight games kerry won against "lesser" opposition, he featured fairly heavily - I'm thinking of the qualifier wins against sligo, monaghan (twice?) & Westmeath; the two munster finals against limerick - these are all games that they could have lost (armagh & Tyrone lost such games during that period) but didn't because of the Gooch.

Some of the praise has been a bit ott though tbf

Sligo, 2009: 2 points (Kerry scored 0-14, won by a point)
Monaghan, 2008: Didn't score (Kerry scored 1-13, won by 3)
Monaghan, 2007 qf: Scored 3 of Kerry's 1-12, won by 1. MFR top scored with 4)
Westmeath, 2012: Scored 3 of Kerry's 2-10, won by 1. Sheehan top scored with 1-3)

Had some right good returns in the Munster c'ship but I haven't time to look into these right now.

Of course scores don't always tell the full story either. He was a very selfless player when someone else was in a better scoring position and had a hand in many goals for Kerry

It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had.

He was the definition of a head-up player. I'd go so far as to say no other forward in the modern era improved those around him as much as Gooch did.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 01:40:20 AM by Syferus »

Ball Hopper

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #211 on: April 13, 2017, 02:01:08 AM »
The problem is he is getting all these plaudits! Has this Kerry team not been put on a pedestal as the best team of that decade? Surely playing on a team with such stature should make it easier to be a person to drive on a team. How in that case when games were tight did they not eek out a win once? Look nobody is saying he was to blame for Kerry losing. Just he was not involved in upping the anti and eeking out a win from the Jaws of defeat. There is no doubting his skill, composure, brain. Just he did not have the full package.

Tomas was asked to name a game where he pulled them out of the fire. Plámás just looked ahead, he could not name one. It was not as if he was caught off guard. He would have been well prompted on the subject before the show began.

I can't remember the details of who scored what but I'm sure if you go back and look at some of the tight games kerry won against "lesser" opposition, he featured fairly heavily - I'm thinking of the qualifier wins against sligo, monaghan (twice?) & Westmeath; the two munster finals against limerick - these are all games that they could have lost (armagh & Tyrone lost such games during that period) but didn't because of the Gooch.

Some of the praise has been a bit ott though tbf

Sligo, 2009: 2 points (Kerry scored 0-14, won by a point)
Monaghan, 2008: Didn't score (Kerry scored 1-13, won by 3)
Monaghan, 2007 qf: Scored 3 of Kerry's 1-12, won by 1. MFR top scored with 4)
Westmeath, 2012: Scored 3 of Kerry's 2-10, won by 1. Sheehan top scored with 1-3)

Had some right good returns in the Munster c'ship but I haven't time to look into these right now.

Of course scores don't always tell the full story either. He was a very selfless player when someone else was in a better scoring position and had a hand in many goals for Kerry

Only recently has Gooch been the main close-in free taker for Kerry.  Mike Frank Russell and Dara O'Cinneide were the main men in their day...along with Bryan Sheehan taking anything with a bit of distance required.  Mike Sheehy, to whom most Kerrymen compare Gooch with, was freetaker all of his career, and penalty taker on occasion as well.

Colm Cooper scored 23-283 (352) in 85 championship games for an average of 4.14 points per game.  Sheehy's 29-205 (292) in 49 games gives him an average of 5.96 points a game.  Throw in Maurice Fitzgerald's 12-205 (241) in 45 games for an average of 5.36, and you can see where they all sit. Paul Geaney is currently averaging 3.88 points per game and James O'Donoghue is on 3.63 - their stats will be helped by whichever one stays healthiest as they look likely to be the main freetakers for the next while with Gooch gone and Bryan Sheehan getting less playing time. 

Make what you will of stats...but the free taking responsibility adds a bit to totals of Sheehy and Fitzgerald.  General opinion, based on many conversations with Kerry folk, put Gooch ahead of Sheehy and Maurice...far from any scientific poll.  These guys would be followers of the club game in Kerry as well, so they would have a deeper knowledge - and that very issue would make comparisons between players from different counties that bit harder to conduct.

The acceptance that Gooch almost preferred to make the pass and make players around him better, rather than score himself, adds to his lead in the poll.

In my opinion, of course.


The Stallion

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #212 on: April 13, 2017, 08:27:50 AM »
This is exactly right :


"It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had."



Cooper's vision and awareness of others sets him apart from more selfish forwards for me. He created so many goal chances for others with passes which lesser forwards wouldn't even see were on, never mind be capable of playing.

Owenmoresider

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #213 on: April 13, 2017, 08:37:44 AM »
The problem is he is getting all these plaudits! Has this Kerry team not been put on a pedestal as the best team of that decade? Surely playing on a team with such stature should make it easier to be a person to drive on a team. How in that case when games were tight did they not eek out a win once? Look nobody is saying he was to blame for Kerry losing. Just he was not involved in upping the anti and eeking out a win from the Jaws of defeat. There is no doubting his skill, composure, brain. Just he did not have the full package.

Tomas was asked to name a game where he pulled them out of the fire. Plámás just looked ahead, he could not name one. It was not as if he was caught off guard. He would have been well prompted on the subject before the show began.

I can't remember the details of who scored what but I'm sure if you go back and look at some of the tight games kerry won against "lesser" opposition, he featured fairly heavily - I'm thinking of the qualifier wins against sligo, monaghan (twice?) & Westmeath; the two munster finals against limerick - these are all games that they could have lost (armagh & Tyrone lost such games during that period) but didn't because of the Gooch.

Some of the praise has been a bit ott though tbf

I can remember the games against Monaghan and I'm pretty sure they put Dessie Mone on Cooper both times and Cooper was peripheral. From what I remember of the Sligo game, it was Galvin who took Kerry over the line that day. The Armagh game in 2006 was all about Darragh O'Se and Donaghy.

Did Kerry really care too much about Munster finals, is that really as good as it got for Cooper?
You're correct on that anyway, don't recall Cooper standing out that much in that game from memory.

Hardy

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #214 on: April 13, 2017, 10:21:52 AM »
This is exactly right :


"It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had."



Cooper's vision and awareness of others sets him apart from more selfish forwards for me. He created so many goal chances for others with passes which lesser forwards wouldn't even see were on, never mind be capable of playing.

I think I agree with that too. I'd know for sure if I knew what taking the top off a defence means.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

Syferus

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #215 on: April 13, 2017, 11:30:54 AM »
This is exactly right :


"It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had."



Cooper's vision and awareness of others sets him apart from more selfish forwards for me. He created so many goal chances for others with passes which lesser forwards wouldn't even see were on, never mind be capable of playing.

I think I agree with that too. I'd know for sure if I knew what taking the top off a defence means.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=take+the+top+off+a+defence

Rossfan

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #216 on: April 13, 2017, 01:09:44 PM »
It's Syfspeak Hardy, from a parallell universe.
Nobody else can understand him either ;D
2016 - Hurling League Champions, Football League Semi finalists

AZOffaly

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #217 on: April 13, 2017, 01:18:20 PM »
NFL Speak. :)

Hardy

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #218 on: April 13, 2017, 01:20:33 PM »
This is exactly right :


"It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had."



Cooper's vision and awareness of others sets him apart from more selfish forwards for me. He created so many goal chances for others with passes which lesser forwards wouldn't even see were on, never mind be capable of playing.

I think I agree with that too. I'd know for sure if I knew what taking the top off a defence means.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=take+the+top+off+a+defence

Thanks for that. Apparently it means "forcing the defense (sic) to respect deep threats by playing 2 high safeties, or one deep safety* at least". To be honest I don't know if I ever saw Gooch do that. I don't know because, even if I'd seen it, I wouldn't have known that was what I was seeing.

* Some sorta life jacket?
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

Jinxy

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #219 on: April 13, 2017, 01:21:48 PM »
In Roscommon, it usually means it's time for a game of pool.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

BennyHarp

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #220 on: April 13, 2017, 01:35:39 PM »
It smacks of someone trying to be knowledgeable and googling cool phrases to impress the lads.... when really he knows feck all about what he's talking about.
That was never a square ball!!

Syferus

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #221 on: April 13, 2017, 02:18:00 PM »
This is exactly right :


"It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had."



Cooper's vision and awareness of others sets him apart from more selfish forwards for me. He created so many goal chances for others with passes which lesser forwards wouldn't even see were on, never mind be capable of playing.

I think I agree with that too. I'd know for sure if I knew what taking the top off a defence means.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=take+the+top+off+a+defence

Thanks for that. Apparently it means "forcing the defense (sic) to respect deep threats by playing 2 high safeties, or one deep safety* at least". To be honest I don't know if I ever saw Gooch do that. I don't know because, even if I'd seen it, I wouldn't have known that was what I was seeing.

* Some sorta life jacket?

All you had to do was click the first link in the search query and you somehow failed in that task.

Some seriously passive aggressive people on this forum.

Never beat the deeler

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #222 on: April 13, 2017, 02:27:48 PM »
This is exactly right :


"It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had."



Cooper's vision and awareness of others sets him apart from more selfish forwards for me. He created so many goal chances for others with passes which lesser forwards wouldn't even see were on, never mind be capable of playing.

I think I agree with that too. I'd know for sure if I knew what taking the top off a defence means.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=take+the+top+off+a+defence

Thanks for that. Apparently it means "forcing the defense (sic) to respect deep threats by playing 2 high safeties, or one deep safety* at least". To be honest I don't know if I ever saw Gooch do that. I don't know because, even if I'd seen it, I wouldn't have known that was what I was seeing.

* Some sorta life jacket?

All you had to do was click the first link in the search query and you somehow failed in that task.

Some seriously passive aggressive people on this forum.

Says the fella who posted a lmgtfy link instead of an actual link to an explanation
Hasta la victoria siempre

Syferus

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #223 on: April 13, 2017, 02:30:12 PM »
This is exactly right :


"It was his vision for passes that set him apart from all other players. There's been lots of good forwards who could kick pretty points, but the sort of passes like the one that took the top off the Dublin defence in 2013 came from a level of awareness that very few players ever had."



Cooper's vision and awareness of others sets him apart from more selfish forwards for me. He created so many goal chances for others with passes which lesser forwards wouldn't even see were on, never mind be capable of playing.

I think I agree with that too. I'd know for sure if I knew what taking the top off a defence means.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=take+the+top+off+a+defence

Thanks for that. Apparently it means "forcing the defense (sic) to respect deep threats by playing 2 high safeties, or one deep safety* at least". To be honest I don't know if I ever saw Gooch do that. I don't know because, even if I'd seen it, I wouldn't have known that was what I was seeing.

* Some sorta life jacket?

All you had to do was click the first link in the search query and you somehow failed in that task.

Some seriously passive aggressive people on this forum.

Says the fella who posted a lmgtfy link instead of an actual link to an explanation

If someone has thousands of posts on an internet forum copying and pasting into a search box should be within their capabilities.. assuming sincerity rather than sneer when it comes to questions on this forum is a rookie mistake.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 02:33:46 PM by Syferus »

Lamh Dhearg Alba

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Re: Gooch Retires
« Reply #224 on: April 13, 2017, 09:04:26 PM »
Sean Cavanagh isn't worth a shit either. Look at all those losses Tyrone suffered since 2008. Cavanagh is to blame for all those because he didn't show leadership.

And where was canavan's leadership in all the tight games he lost. Not worth a shit either using Brolly's criteria. He was great in the games Tyrone won but in the games they lost , that was when they needed him to step up.

You've completely missed the point.

Nobody is expecting Cooper to have went through his career without having a bad day at the office or going missing now and again when needed. That happens every player.

However, in Cooper's career there has been the distinct absence of any case that can be referred to where in a big game, when Kerry really need him to take a game by the scruff of the neck, where it actually came to fruition. Canavan did it throughout his career, you might recall the time when you lads were reigning All Ireland champions and he inspired his side who were down to 13 men to an Ulster semi final victory over you. For most of the 90s Canavan was a one man team. Cavanagh has plenty of those moments as well, the Ulster final last year, the 2008 All Ireland final. Guys like Joyce, Bradley, McManus, McConville are guys who delivered the goods on a consistent basis and did it when the heat was on.

But there are none of these moments for Cooper and while he might be one of the most talented players of his generation, he's not one of the greatest.

05 against Tyrone he scored 0-5 and set up Kerry's first goal before getting taken out of it. In 2008 he scored 6 points.

Those two games back up Brolly's point to an extent. Cooper took some lovely scores in the first half in 2005 but didn't score from play after the 37th minute. Now Canavan was past his best by 2005 but he came up with a crucial goal at the end of the first half then hit an outrageous point in the second half just as Kerry were threatening a comeback. He helped shift momentum back in Tyrone's favour when they really needed it.

In 2008 Cooper disappeared with the rest of the Kerry team in the closing 15 minutes. Sean Cavanagh took that game by the scruff of the neck at that point, lofting two magnificent long range points to lift Tyrone.  So 2005 and 2008 aren't great examples to use to argue against Brolly. That's not to say there weren't other occasions when Gooch did deliver in such situations, he was a tremendous player. There is some merit in Brolly's argument though, IMO.