Author Topic: Super 8s  (Read 12023 times)

Zulu

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2017, 11:21:09 AM »
I mentioned the phrase Super 8 the day the proposal was announced.
I think it's the other 24 that need round Robin games which would help teams with potential to improve and be competitive with the big 8.

Can't believe that some people are still promoting the 32 County open draw lottery.
At least the Semis and most quarter finals are competitive under the present system but if good teams were knocking each other out along the way we'll be back to the kind of semi final massacres we used to have in the 70s, 80's and early 90s.

I wouldn't support a strict open draw. The answer is staring everyone in the face, link the league to championship and seed the championship. The league is finally catching on with crowds in excess of 10K not uncommon in division 1. Until we make the league a central part of our season then we will have a poor system.

sambostar

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2017, 11:31:18 AM »
I think the solution for the GAA is to go back a version of the way the league was run in the late 80's/early 90's. Then is you won Div3 you got a shot at one of the Div1 teams in the QF's. It would need to be adapted to maybe have knock-out starting at last-16 stage, so you'd have say 6 spots for Div1, 5 for Div2, 3 for Div3, 2 for Div4. You would keep promotion/relegation as is.

You would play provincial championships & any team making the provincial final is guaranteed a place in the last 16 also - so this keeps them meaningful for teams. Provincial winners could be guaranteed a home draw in the last 16 too to keep it worth winning for the big teams who are likely going to be in Div1 top 6.

You could organise fixtures by playing 4 rounds of the league over 6-7 weeks say in March/April. Then break for 5-6 weeks for club football. Then back in July to play provincial championships. August & September you finish off the remaining league games & AI series.

Do you think this would get through congress?  ;)

Esmarelda

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2017, 11:34:46 AM »
If super 8s is passed, it'll be 3 competitions in one. Provincial c'ships are pointless and devalued, time to get rid. Back door is boring. Even Ulster, the most competitive is boring and pointless. The whole c'ship doesn't get remotely interesting until August. The c'ship needs woken up with a bang in May/June, with a humdinger weekend of games like Kerry Mayo or Dublin Tyrone. Straight knock out, no second chance. People would go mental for tickets.
Benny, I don't quite follow. Is it an open draw you're suggesting? So the chances of Dublin v Tyrone coming out are the same as Dublin v Carlow. What would be the point in that. And if you did somehow get Kerry v Mayo and Dublin v Tyrone in the first round, and all that goes with it, surely the subsequent rounds would be weaker with these teams eliminated?

When is congress by the way?

Yes chances are low of Krry Dublin say but not impossible. Even if we had no big games in the first round, odds are we would in second. So really we could see Kerry, Dublin or Mayo go out after 2 games. It would mean teams play at same time, same amount of games, fixed calendar etc.

And yes, if we had Kerry Mayo, Dub Tyrone in first round, that would mean we maybe had Carlow Leitrim Antrim etc progressing further but you say that like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't the weaker teams get to an AI semi, and afforded the opportunity because of the luck of the draw? Think of what a Carlow Antrim AI semi would do for those counties. Everyone moans because they're sick of Kerry Dublin Mayo in last 4 yet moan too of the possibility of a Leitrim or Louth getting there!
I didn't. I mentioned it in relation to your point about how great it would be for a Dublin v Tyrone draw in the first round, with ticket sales etc. If that happened then further down the line you could get a game like Dublin v the winner of Antrim v Leitrim where there'd likely be little of the anticipation that you highlighted in round 1.

BennyCake

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2017, 11:45:18 AM »
Esmeralda, Dublin Leitrim in Round 2. Is that any less appealing than Dublin v Longford in a Leinster QF or Kerry Waterford in a Munster semi?

Yes there will be mismatches, but there will with any system.

Your point on weaker subsequent rounds - the whole point for 32 teams involved is to afford them every chance of success. Yes Antrim mightn't be as good as Mayo but an open draw would afford them the possibility of success, like the other 31.

We've had 11 different AI winners since 1960, including Derry andArmaghs one win. Its boring and needs a shake up.

Esmarelda

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2017, 11:57:04 AM »
No, it's not. Again, my point was in reply to what you suggested was needed in round 1 to get people interested. The contrast between what you said was needed and what could potentially happen is huge.

Rossfan

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2017, 12:00:48 PM »
Antrim or Leitrim won't win the AI unless you bar 20 Counties from taking part.
Do we let the 4 D4 teams play a KO competition with the winner getting to the AI Final?
The winner of a D3 competition get to the Semis whee they play the winner of a competition between the 16 D1 and Dr teams?
Do we handicap D1 teams say -6 points, D2 -4, D3 -0 and D4 +3.????
Or do we let the best teams meet in the closing stages of what is a CHAMPIONSHIP  not a social welfare game??
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Zulu

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2017, 12:10:12 PM »
I agree, the IC championship shouldn't be about handicapping the best to allow inferior teams get further. All it has to be is a fair, well structured competition that means team A and team Z play the same number of games to win it and if you improve you can do better. There's hundreds of examples of well run fair competitions from around the world we just need to modify one to suit our needs.

BennyCake

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2017, 12:16:28 PM »
Last year Tipp beat Cork in Munster. People in Kerry were complaining because they were geared up for meeting cork in Killarney. The annual summer outing, big crowd, pubs full, money for the town. That's what Munster is, Kerry v cork. It's predicable and boring. And both teams know they just have to be geared up for August regardless of where the Munster title resides.

An open draw mightn't give you Dub Kerry or Mayo Tyrone in round 1 or indeed any interesting ties. But when is the first interesting tie as it is? Maybe an ulster final in july. Give the big teams a shake up, Kerry heading to ulster in round 1 will get their arse in gear. Yes the cream usually rises to the top but at least vary things. You could have Dublin in Enniskillen or Tyrone to Salthill, Kerry to Clones.

Esmarelda

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2017, 12:31:25 PM »
Last year Tipp beat Cork in Munster. People in Kerry were complaining because they were geared up for meeting cork in Killarney. The annual summer outing, big crowd, pubs full, money for the town. That's what Munster is, Kerry v cork. It's predicable and boring. And both teams know they just have to be geared up for August regardless of where the Munster title resides.

An open draw mightn't give you Dub Kerry or Mayo Tyrone in round 1 or indeed any interesting ties. But when is the first interesting tie as it is? Maybe an ulster final in july. Give the big teams a shake up, Kerry heading to ulster in round 1 will get their arse in gear. Yes the cream usually rises to the top but at least vary things. You could have Dublin in Enniskillen or Tyrone to Salthill, Kerry to Clones.
Except last year it wasn't.

Doesn't the back door give us unpredictable games? The current system is flawed but there seems to be endless threads on what is wrong and it's proving very difficult to come up with a solution to keep everyone happy.

In fairness to Padraic Duffy, he acknowledged this final point in the introduction to his new proposal. The "Super 8s" is something he seems to have come up with himself, but the keeping of the provincials, not introducing a second-tier competition etc. is the feedback he's received from the stakeholders.

BennyCake

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2017, 04:29:04 PM »
Last year it wasn't, but that's what theyve become accustomed to. I'd imagine Kerry and Cork are sick of the sight of each other. A rivalry is great and all, but when it happens constantly, it begins to lose it's appeal.

You do get the odd unpredictable game in the back door. Longford, Wicklow or Sligo might win 2 or 3 games, then stuffed by Kerry or Dublin in last eight. The big teams might get caught once, but not twice. A c'ship is not the same when it's not straight knock-out.

manfromdelmonte

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2017, 05:23:46 PM »
there should be three or four super 8 competitions imho

one for the top teams, next best 8 and weakest 8.
it would give every team something to aim for.

Rossfan

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2017, 05:40:39 PM »
How about we call it the National Football League?
Anyway there are 3 motions for Congress
The HQ one for the Super 8
One from Laois proposing replacing Round 1 of the Qualifiers with 4 groups of 4
One from Carlow which I can't recall exactly but as far as I recall proposes starting Qualifiers earlier.
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Derry Optimist

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2017, 05:58:21 PM »
If the All Ireland championship is to be really competitive on a consistently regular basis the only solution is to abolish the current Provincial format and replace it with a system based on equality for all.The different no of counties in each provinces simply copper fastens the glaring inequalities at present which make it easier for Munster and Connacht provincial winners to reach the All Ireland Quarter finals.
In addition and to make every county in Ireland to have at least a realistic chance of being at least competitive at their own level I believe there should be three graded and separate championships such as those which exist in most County club championships ie Senior,Intermediate and Junior.There should be twelve counties in the Senior(Sam Maguire Cup),ten in Intermediate and ten in the Junior championship.Current league placings should determine which county plays in which championship.The games in the  final stages of these latter two could act as curtain risers to  last 8 Senior games in Croke park or wherever they are played.
Do I think that these thoughts of mine will become a reality? Highly unlikely I would suggest simply because most counties, especially the so-called weaker ones live, in the dreamland of thinking that this will be their year to win the long awaited Provincial title. So they hire the dearest manager who trains his panellists for four or five nights a week until the more intelligent players/ fringe panellists get fed up with the disproportionate ratio of training sessions to actual matches and then drop out.Eventually the manager is short of at least ten of his best players and ten of his fringe players. The rest lose heart, more matches are lost( the manager is now playing a practically reserve team)and the manager is forced to resign.There is no money left in the coffers and the supporters blame everybody except the provincial system which they slavishly adhere to.
If this trend keeps being replicated year in year out more and more players will become disillusioned and we will only be left with the Super 8.Can some GAA visionary with  courage and foresight not appeal to the masses and explain how our great game is being eroded in terms of non competitive  and unfair championship structures on the one hand and the presence of an unsightly ultra defensive playing system on the other?

Jinxy

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2017, 07:34:50 PM »
A simple exercise would be to ask congress delegates the following.
"Who here is from a junior club? Put up your hand."
"Who here is from an intermediate club? Put up your hand."
"Who here is from a senior club? Put up your hand."

"Now, leave your hand up if you think every club in your county should play in an ungraded championship with one winner at the end of it all."

I guarantee you the junior & intermediate lads wouldn't be long taking their hands down.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

BennyCake

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Re: Super 8s
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2017, 07:52:11 PM »
Derry and Down were affected with players opting out. Now both are unlikely to be winning an AI, but what is the drop out rate in Waterford, Carlow, Limerick etc? Derry/Down at least have won AI and NFL in recent years/played in Div 1. Why would a Waterford player commit to a Div 4 campaign and early c'ship exit? Maybe this is a reason why such counties don't improve.

The current set up is elitist and the Super 8 moreso.