http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/kieran-shannon-theres-no-acceptable-cynicism-lets-black-ball-the-offenders-459778.html (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/kieran-shannon-theres-no-acceptable-cynicism-lets-black-ball-the-offenders-459778.html)
Really good column about cynicism and a possible solution. Amusing to see how precious Dublin supporters have remarkably become, some were calling it anti-Dublin.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on September 28, 2017, 07:49:07 AM
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/kieran-shannon-theres-no-acceptable-cynicism-lets-black-ball-the-offenders-459778.html (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/kieran-shannon-theres-no-acceptable-cynicism-lets-black-ball-the-offenders-459778.html)
Really good column about cynicism and a possible solution. Amusing to see how precious Dublin supporters have remarkably become, some were calling it anti-Dublin.
This forums fascination with the Dublin senior footballers continues, there are more to the GAA than Dublin, id seriously start looking at your own county Dinny.
As for cynicism, its kill or be killed, I have no problem with it, you do what you have to do, anyone who played the game would know this, but I doubt people on this forum know what a club is.
I don't want to register even if it is free - can someone paste the article in here please?
Back in 2004, long before several of Jack McCaffrey's teammates hauled Mayo defenders to the ground to prevent them from receiving a kickout in the closing moments of an All-Ireland final, his father Noel, along with some other eminent academic colleagues, conducted a study into the attitudes of Irish athletes towards cheating.
What they found was that athletes essentially identified three distinct sets of rules: What was actually in the rule book, the officials' interpretation of those rules, and then the players' own code. The latter was what truly counted. It was only cheating, unfair, if you violated the players' code.
In a sport like golf, the three were pretty much consistent. It wasn't just the rule book or course officials who frowned on someone who replaced a ball a few centimetres closer to the hole. If you violated that rule, you violated the players' code, even your own conscience. You just didn't do it.
In team sports, they found the "moral reasoning" was considerably lower, especially in the GAA. At the time something like kicking an opponent on the ground or eye-gouging was viewed as unacceptable in the eyes of fellow players, but holding a forward's jersey, or a forward pulling down a defender to win a free and fool a ref, was deemed fair enough.
"The referee knows that people are going to try and take an advantage so the onus is more on him," said one Gaelic footballer who participated in the study. "If you get a chance to steal a few yards or hold someone's jersey off the ball, you're going to do it."
Thirteen years on and that study can seem a bit dated. Sports have moved on and the researchers haven't stayed still either.
One of them, Dr Tadhg MacIntyre, has also investigated attitudes towards doping and is currently researching the area of match fixing; he and his colleagues in the University of Limerick's health research institute have teamed up with seven other institutions across Europe, conducting surveys and interviews with referees, players, and coaches with the view of preventing match-fixing and promoting values-driven behaviour in sport.
But he still keeps a close eye on Gaelic Games and has seen that while the sport has admirably reduced and even rooted out certain unsavoury behaviours, it has continued to tolerate and even spawn certain others.
It may not yet have spiralled to the level of base moral reasoning prevalent for so long in professional cycling where doping has been an accepted norm, but it has no reason to feel complacent.
"If we continue down the road where the outcome is the be-all and end-all," he says, "we could end up where [GAA participants] could decide it is more advantageous to dope or to engage in match fixing and other murky activities. That threat is real. That cliff is there."
MacIntyre is not being alarmist. He's been rounded and reasoned.
As he notes, Gaelic Games has made considerable strides in the policing of its game over the last 15 years or so.
In his autobiography Shane Curran detailed brilliantly in a chapter called Crime and Punishment the absolute recklessness that prevailed on the killing fields of Roscommon in the early 1990s.
At the time he was considered one of the best corner-forwards in the county but after the continuous blackguarding he received off-the-ball, he headed off to America in disgust and would only play in goal upon his return. He saw another team-mate give the game up altogether after he had his teeth and jaw broken by an opponent.
In psychological parlance, such acts would be described as examples of 'hostile' aggression: where someone would act out of anger or frustration and a desire to see someone hurt or punished. The GAA has made huge strides in reducing the level of hostile aggression.
These days you're a lot more likely to leave the field with your teeth intact — and not just because you have to wear a mouthguard.
There's another type of aggression though which the GAA is struggling with — what MacIntyre and his colleagues would term 'instrumental' aggression. Here the intention isn't to maim or even injure an opponent — it's just to hurt and stop that opponent's attempt to win. It's nothing personal, strictly business. Cold-blooded, not hot-headed.
Nowadays a corner-back is a lot less likely to break a corner forward's jaw — but he's a lot more likely to engage in trash talking with him. And as the All-Ireland final illustrated, that corner-forward in turn is a lot more inclined to drag down that corner-back in the last minute to defend a narrow lead.
The GAA has made some strides in this regard. The introduction of the black card was an acknowledgement that too much 'instrumental' aggression — or 'cynicism' as GAA people more widely describe it — was going unpunished. As controversial as it has been and for all the hard cases and wrong calls it has triggered, overall it has been good for the game.
The Sunday Game panel often say they're sick of reviewing black card incidents but what they forget is that they'll never get to review all the challenges that DIDN'T happen because of the existence and threat of the black card.
Lee Keegan would not score as often as he does if there was no black card. He'd be hauled down a lot more often instead.
But if the black card is a factor in why this year's All-Ireland final was probably the best of the last 35 years, the lack of a black ball to go with it is why the last minute of such a spectacle was so unedifying.
This column has been flagging this one for some time. On the eve of the introduction of the black card — and just weeks after another Dublin-Mayo All-Ireland final decided by a point — I wrote: "Teams will gladly take a couple of black cards in the closing minutes, further institutionalising and normalising such fouls.
A player won't mind missing the closing minutes of a game if his act has made his team more likely to win. He'll even relish the martyrdom of taking one for the team.
"But what if such deliberate fouls were punished on the scoreboard? Take Kevin McManamon deliberately hauling down Lee Keegan late on in this year's [2013] All-Ireland final. In 2014 McManamon would most likely commit the same foul again with just minutes to go, even if it meant his team was reduced to 14 men.
But if the ball was brought to a mark 25 metres out from goal, Cillian O'Connor put it over the bar and play resumed with a Mayo free from where Keegan was fouled, he'd be less inclined to commit that foul."
In other high-scoring sports they essentially have a black ball to go with a black card. In basketball, if you commit an intentional or technical foul, the opponent is awarded with free throws.
Sometimes those fouls are acts of instrumental aggression, daring the opponent to punish such cynicism by making the shot, executing a skill, but at least the opponent gets the chance to punish you with skill. In football, you don't. And so, in 2017, Ciarán Kilkenny is still doing what Kevin McManamon did in 2013.
It's not just Dubs. It's Keegan himself, throwing a GPS at Dean Rock this year, wrestling Diarmuid Connolly to the ground two years ago. It's supposedly all the top teams.
"I would expect it from anyone who has ambitions of winning an All-Ireland," Kerry's Paul Geaney said last week. "Kill or be killed. It is part and parcel of the game."
But it doesn't have to be part and parcel of the game. It's only part and parcel of the game because the GAA's culture and rules tolerate it.
If it's the game Geaney and the GAA wants, fair enough, as long as they understand this: If it is all about kill or be killed and win at all costs, then the GAA — from Geaney's clubfield in Dingle all the way to Croke Park — is not entitled to a single cent from the State.
All Government funding for sport, especially one that claims to be an amateur and community-based one, is working off the premise and assumption that sport is character-building, that it promotes the better values of humanity.
You watch the closing minutes of an NBA game and the spirit it is played in is no different to the closing minutes of an U15 game you'll see in the Parochial or Oblate Hall tonight.
Stephen Curry will never stoop to throwing a GPS at LeBron James, or James will never resort to stealing Curry's kicking tee. At what stage do we feel it's fine for kids playing football — for the club, the community — to haul their opponents down and prevent them from taking a kickout? U14? U16? Minor? In 2021, will we again have to watch Dublin and Mayo men rugby-tackling each other in the closing minutes of another All-Ireland final?
Jarlath Burns and the rules revision committee are making strides to reward skill. The mark worked. The black ball would work too. Football needs more interventions and deterrents like it to shape a higher moral reasoning. Otherwise it'll just continue to cheat itself.
It would certainly be interesting to see something like this trialled. Defining what constitutes a black ball would obviously be the difficult bit
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 28, 2017, 09:50:57 AM
It would certainly be interesting to see something like this trialled. Defining what constitutes a black ball would obviously be the difficult bit
I'd definitely agree with that more so than someone missing the rest of the game due to the ref giving an incorrect black card!
In principle I agreed with the black card but never liked the idea of someone missing the rest of the match for it due to the fact that most referees aren't exactly competent.
ive been arguing for this for years
but you have to remember how ingrained professional fouling now is in Basketball because they are allowed 5 fouls . A player is considered unprofessional to let the opponent score if he has 'fouls left' at the end of the game .
also it makes his last point just ridiculous ' not entitled to a single cent from the State.'
why because there is fouling or cheating so every time a soccer player feigns injury or a rugby player deliberately pushes up on the off side line when the ref cant see Funding should be cut?? ETc ETC
Quote from: screenexile on September 28, 2017, 10:09:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 28, 2017, 09:50:57 AM
It would certainly be interesting to see something like this trialled. Defining what constitutes a black ball would obviously be the difficult bit
I'd definitely agree with that more so than someone missing the rest of the game due to the ref giving an incorrect black card!
In principle I agreed with the black card but never liked the idea of someone missing the rest of the match for it due to the fact that most referees aren't exactly competent.
my main problem with the black card are all the ones that are not given it make any one who gets one look like a sucker
Quote from: screenexile on September 28, 2017, 10:09:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 28, 2017, 09:50:57 AM
It would certainly be interesting to see something like this trialled. Defining what constitutes a black ball would obviously be the difficult bit
I'd definitely agree with that more so than someone missing the rest of the game due to the ref giving an incorrect black card!
In principle I agreed with the black card but never liked the idea of someone missing the rest of the match for it due to the fact that most referees aren't exactly competent.
And even the competent ones can make mistakes because it is a very difficult game to referee especially with players trying to con referees.
I'd only be in favour of this if it comes with a review committee that reviews each match and retrospectively punishes diving, feigning injury, grabbing the defender and pulling him down etc. There needs to be balance. Obviously the 4 steps rule needs to be enforced also. Things are too skewed in favour of attackers/players in possession. Maybe that's what people want but why would any kid want to be a defender?
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 08:39:42 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on September 28, 2017, 07:49:07 AM
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/kieran-shannon-theres-no-acceptable-cynicism-lets-black-ball-the-offenders-459778.html (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/kieran-shannon-theres-no-acceptable-cynicism-lets-black-ball-the-offenders-459778.html)
Really good column about cynicism and a possible solution. Amusing to see how precious Dublin supporters have remarkably become, some were calling it anti-Dublin.
This forums fascination with the Dublin senior footballers continues, there are more to the GAA than Dublin, id seriously start looking at your own county Dinny.
As for cynicism, its kill or be killed, I have no problem with it, you do what you have to do, anyone who played the game would know this, but I doubt people on this forum know what a club is.
Speaking of precious. On the contrary I found most of the posters on this forum remarkable club people, I coach u6 and u16 football and I wouldn't dare put myself in their company. As for Kildare, none of the Kildare posters here are fan boys jumping on a bandwagon, same as the majority of our posters here, we argue, debate, criticize Kildare all the time.
As for the kill or be killed, that's the point of article, did you even read it? It doesn't have to be like that.
I've been banging this drum for years.
Cheating is cheating. Where's the glory in winning something by unfair means?
Taking down a player through on goal and taking a black card in gaelic football or a red card in soccer is called professional. It's cheating. You probably wouldn't have won the game had you not done it. So why not take an illegal substance and be done with it?
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
If the opposition are doing it down the other end should you not do it and lose but at least you can hold your head high? That's the alternative. Winning isn't everything but the higher up you go the more it is.
I was amazed when the Mayo defense let O'Callaghan through for the goal. Would that have happened with a few minutes left?
This black ball thing is a good idea. I would add though, that the punishment should fit the crime. Like goal tending penalties in basketball, what about just awarding a goal when a player is pulled down when clean through on the keeper. What good is a 14 yard free then, even if you bring it back for a second one where the foul happened as suggested in the piece)? Or at least give a penalty in that instance, say, for anything inside 25 yards or whatever.
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 08:39:42 AM
As for cynicism, its kill or be killed, I have no problem with it, you do what you have to do, anyone who played the game would know this, but I doubt people on this forum know what a club is.
Do you have a problem with eye gouging and biting?
It's a real "coincidence" how many times these things have come up in relation to Dublin players in recent years.
Black card offence? 14 years free no matter where th fouls occurs, player sinbinned for 10 minutes. If those two additions were made to the rule the level of institutional fouls would decrease. 8 team fouls per half as well and it's a 14 metre free. All the ref needs is a page in his book where he ticks the fouls off!! Pretty basic stuff
Quote from: sid waddell on September 28, 2017, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 08:39:42 AM
As for cynicism, its kill or be killed, I have no problem with it, you do what you have to do, anyone who played the game would know this, but I doubt people on this forum know what a club is.
Do you have a problem with eye gouging and biting?
It's a real "coincidence" how many times these things have come up in relation to Dublin players in recent years.
Is that classified cynicism or dirty play?
Im talk about last minute of the game stuff. Listen to Cian o Sullivan on Off the Ball recently, Paul Geaney, they are the ones they are saying its kill or be killed. Why didn't you drag him down mr defender, we were 2 points up with 1 minute to go to win the All Ireland. etc.
Don't think any Dublin player out of Philly Mc has be found guilty of such an offence.
Sin bin works fine in ladies football. . . . . . . . .
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 12:34:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 28, 2017, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 08:39:42 AM
As for cynicism, its kill or be killed, I have no problem with it, you do what you have to do, anyone who played the game would know this, but I doubt people on this forum know what a club is.
Do you have a problem with eye gouging and biting?
It's a real "coincidence" how many times these things have come up in relation to Dublin players in recent years.
Is that classified cynicism or dirty play?
I would say it would be classed as both.
Not all cyncism is dirty but all dirt is cynical.
As I said, a real "coincidence" that Dublin players have been at the centre of so many of these incidents.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 28, 2017, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 12:34:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 28, 2017, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 08:39:42 AM
As for cynicism, its kill or be killed, I have no problem with it, you do what you have to do, anyone who played the game would know this, but I doubt people on this forum know what a club is.
Do you have a problem with eye gouging and biting?
It's a real "coincidence" how many times these things have come up in relation to Dublin players in recent years.
Is that classified cynicism or dirty play?
I would say it would be classed as both.
Not all cyncism is dirty but all dirt is cynical.
As I said, a real "coincidence" that Dublin players have been at the centre of so many of these incidents.
Well they say serial winners are the worst offenders.
Only one player I can remember was charged with those offences you mention below, so cant be all that bad, 1 player!!!! . . . .
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 28, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
If the opposition are doing it down the other end should you not do it and lose but at least you can hold your head high? That's the alternative. Winning isn't everything but the higher up you go the more it is.
The rules are there to be obeyed or broken. Individuals and groups can choose which route to take. I'm just giving my view on it.
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?
BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.
Quote from: TabClear on September 28, 2017, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?
BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.
yes
I know this is the internet but have people lost all sense of perspective.
not all wrongs are equally wrong every thing has some level of graduation
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 28, 2017, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 12:34:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 28, 2017, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 28, 2017, 08:39:42 AM
As for cynicism, its kill or be killed, I have no problem with it, you do what you have to do, anyone who played the game would know this, but I doubt people on this forum know what a club is.
Do you have a problem with eye gouging and biting?
It's a real "coincidence" how many times these things have come up in relation to Dublin players in recent years.
Is that classified cynicism or dirty play?
I would say it would be classed as both.
Not all cyncism is dirty but all dirt is cynical.
As I said, a real "coincidence" that Dublin players have been at the centre of so many of these incidents.
Well they say serial winners are the worst offenders.
Only one player I can remember was charged with those offences you mention below, so cant be all that bad, 1 player!!!! . . . .
Yeah, "coincidence".
(https://media.balls.ie/uploads/2013/09/cooper.jpg)
(http://cdn-04.independent.ie/incoming/article34574904.ece/207bc/AUTOCROP/w620/JamesMc.jpg)
(http://www.breakingnews.ie/remote/media.central.ie/media/images/y/YTEyeGouge_large.jpg?width=600&s=bn-696926)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9NFH6URr0qnf1_oXmD5Q7YnHXts1xUsDb_RkJRbF4ivyIfh0j0A)
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/dublin-defender-kevin-o-brien-s-hearing-over-alleged-biting-incident-against-donegal-set-for-wednesday-night-1.1369074
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-s-jason-whelan-banned-for-eight-weeks-1.1664640
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6YQBgD-0A
Not all wrongs are equal but defining what is wrong would be down to the discretion of the ref as it is the majority of the time now.
I miss the days when it would be Tyrone players in those photos and everyone talking about the dirty players from Tyrone. Good ole days!
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
part of the problem with this type of cheating is that the punishment is far less severe for the attacker than it is for the defender, so its worth takinga risk.
Take for example a full forward and full back on the 13m line as a ball is played in long, the full back could give his man a shove to gain an advantage, but the penalty for being caught doing so is conceding a handy scoreable free or penalty and most likely a booking.
The forward could give his man a shove in order to gain an advantage which might get him a score, the penalty for him getting caught is much less severe, a free against him on his own 13m line and its rare that he would get booked for doing it.
Its risk v reward, and at the minute the rules are wildly skewed towards the attacker in these types of situation.
This is one of the big reasons why teams have become more defensive in their set ups. The more we move the rules towards' attacking play' the more teams will set up to counteract this.
Quote from: phpearse on September 28, 2017, 01:32:36 PM
I miss the days when it would be Tyrone players in those photos and everyone talking about the dirty players from Tyrone. Good ole days!
Cracking post!
Inconclusive still frames. Again only one player has been punished for this alleged offence.
Is time wasting cynical and cheating?
I don't think the author has ever watched an NBA playoff game.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on September 28, 2017, 12:30:00 PM
Black card offence? 14 years free no matter where th fouls occurs, player sinbinned for 10 minutes. If those two additions were made to the rule the level of institutional fouls would decrease. 8 team fouls per half as well and it's a 14 metre free. All the ref needs is a page in his book where he ticks the fouls off!! Pretty basic stuff
Id agree with most of this. I think there is 2 problems. 1) The cynical fouls that the black card was brought in to stop, but hasn't quite stopped them and 2) The amount of fouls you can get away with. We sometimes had guys after matches who had committed 10 fouls plus, some of them not even booked! This was obviously deliberate. The amount of fouls a player can get away with in a game and still be on the pitch is ridiculous. All the wee half pulls and over-eager tackling that gets blown as foul but nothing. If your on a yellow you should only be able to get away with one of these before you see another one.
Quote from: HiMucker on September 28, 2017, 02:23:20 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on September 28, 2017, 12:30:00 PM
Black card offence? 14 years free no matter where th fouls occurs, player sinbinned for 10 minutes. If those two additions were made to the rule the level of institutional fouls would decrease. 8 team fouls per half as well and it's a 14 metre free. All the ref needs is a page in his book where he ticks the fouls off!! Pretty basic stuff
Id agree with most of this. I think there is 2 problems. 1) The cynical fouls that the black card was brought in to stop, but hasn't quite stopped them and 2) The amount of fouls you can get away with. We sometimes had guys after matches who had committed 10 fouls plus, some of them not even booked! This was obviously deliberate. The amount of fouls a player can get away with in a game and still be on the pitch is ridiculous. All the wee half pulls and over-eager tackling that gets blown as foul but nothing. If your on a yellow you should only be able to get away with one of these before you see another one.
What about a basketball type system were a player is only allowed a certain amount of fouls per game - say 4. As soon as he reaches this quota he is taken off with no replacement. A more serious foul such as a yellow card offence = 2 fouls and a straight red obviously would equal 4 and removal from the game.
Or something that potentially punishes the offending team on the scoreboard. For every 3 fouls committed the team on the receiving end gets a free / 45 from the centre of the posts. They still have to convert but may be more of a deterrent?
Or a mix of both of the above.
Quote from: TabClear on September 28, 2017, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?
BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.
I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 02:55:01 PM
Quote from: TabClear on September 28, 2017, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?
BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.
I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.
You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.
Some of the suggested punishments here are going ott imo. It's the "closing out" of games with fouling that something like this should be used for.
I'd agree with what someone mentioned earlier about some of the rules being weighted in favour of the forward e.g. number of steps allowed, which encourages teams to play more defensively. The steps rule in particular should be enforced to allow backs a chance to make a fair challenge for the ball
I think for a lot of these end of game fouls like happened in the AI final,we are trying to solve the wrong problem.
The object of dragging these men down and throwing the tee away etc is time wasting. If that is the case, the referee should be adding the time additional time on, which at the minute doesn't really happen.
if players thought that the time would be added on again anyway, there wouldn't really be any point in the time wasting.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 28, 2017, 02:57:20 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 02:55:01 PM
Quote from: TabClear on September 28, 2017, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?
BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.
I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.
You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.
What's the relevance of that?
You can gain an unfair advantage if you con the referee, similar to when you dive or pull a jersey off the ball.
Black card equaling a sin bin for 10 mins and a 14 yard tap over is a good shout.
Then you need to go further in the example of Conor McManus being clean through on goals, so if the last man back hauls him down, even outside the box then it a sin bin and a penalty.
All of this win at all costs pulling and dragging is to stop scores in tight games. So, the main way to stop it is to give that tap over free. It would defaet the purpose of the real late in the day cynicism.
A lot of issues would be sorted if referees enforced the steps rule. A defender has zero chance of winning a ball back if the attacker doesn't have to play it for 8-10 steps. We see it so often and it is the entire basis of the defensive, possession-based football we see at the minute.
I've lost count of the number of times I've heard coaches tell me/teams to take a minimum of 6 steps before playing the ball as they know you'll get away with it.
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 28, 2017, 02:57:20 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 02:55:01 PM
Quote from: TabClear on September 28, 2017, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?
BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.
I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.
You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.
What's the relevance of that?
You can gain an unfair advantage if you con the referee, similar to when you dive or pull a jersey off the ball.
How do you get an unfair advantage from claiming a sideline ball. If the ball went off you well surely the ref and linesman will see this and give the ball to the other team. How can we tell when a player claims a sideline ball that he didn't legitimately think it went of an opposition player.
Similar with diving. Its very hard to enforce unless its a pretty obvious dive.
Some uncomfortable viewing, Luke Fitzgerald v Kimmage in podcast - initiated because they got into a Twitter spat over the Dubs cheating. First time I've ever felt that Kimmage has been bested and left floundering tbh.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/the-left-wing/the-left-wing-listen-in-full-as-luke-fitzgerald-and-paul-kimmage-face-off-on-dublin-cheating-and-doping-in-sport-36177454.html
Quote from: criostlinn on September 28, 2017, 04:35:32 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 28, 2017, 02:57:20 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 02:55:01 PM
Quote from: TabClear on September 28, 2017, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 28, 2017, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 28, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space.
What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?
Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.
Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?
BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.
I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.
You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.
What's the relevance of that?
You can gain an unfair advantage if you con the referee, similar to when you dive or pull a jersey off the ball.
How do you get an unfair advantage from claiming a sideline ball. If the ball went off you well surely the ref and linesman will see this and give the ball to the other team. How can we tell when a player claims a sideline ball that he didn't legitimately think it went of an opposition player.
Similar with diving. Its very hard to enforce unless its a pretty obvious dive.
Surely the ref and linesman will see it? You think the officials spot every decision?
If you know the ball went out of your leg and you claim the kick anyway then you're trying to gain an unfair advantage. I'm looking at this from the point of view of the player that is trying to gain the advantage rather then the punishment. I accept that "policing" these occurrences is very difficult.
My point is, in sport, and particularly in a sport which doesn't financially reward the winner, would it not be better to win fairly and know it than know that you won by cheating? Obviously I'm in the minority which I think is sad.
A good we listen. Think Kimmage using the word cheating and Fitzgearld using the word cheating would have broadly different contexts. Kimmage uncovered the most well run sports scandal in history and his name and the word cheating always have the seedy undertone to it, I think that's why Fitzgearld called him out on it.
For him to associate that word with Dublin would imply something more sinister than what it was.
Kimmage is a Dub supporter too not a fly by night type so I'm sure he didn't say it lightly, dunno how much of a GAA man Fitzgerald is & I got the impression that he thought Kimmage was approaching the point as a 'cyclist who doped', not as a Gaa man.
Fair play Luke Fitzgerald. He made some really important points that needed to be made to Kimmage.
Quote from: bennydorano on September 28, 2017, 05:02:22 PM
Some uncomfortable viewing, Luke Fitzgerald v Kimmage in podcast - initiated because they got into a Twitter spat over the Dubs cheating. First time I've ever felt that Kimmage has been bested and left floundering tbh.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/the-left-wing/the-left-wing-listen-in-full-as-luke-fitzgerald-and-paul-kimmage-face-off-on-dublin-cheating-and-doping-in-sport-36177454.html
I'm really not sure what podcast you were listening to.
Kimmage calmly eviscerated Fitzgerald and poor Lukey was certainly metaphorically, perhaps literally gasping for air at the end of it. I'd say he'll be keeping the head down for a while after it but Kimmage may well have done for his fledgling media career right there.
Fitzgerald came across like a mixture of one of these pro-Trump INTERNET troll types who disintegrate like wet toilet roll when they have to actually debate, and a Fianna Failer on the back foot on the Vincent Browne show circa November 2010. A total lightweight.
His contribution was so cringe-inducing that it made for genuinely awkward listening.
Quote from: bennydorano on September 28, 2017, 05:48:49 PM
Kimmage is a Dub supporter too not a fly by night type so I'm sure he didn't say it lightly, dunno how much of a GAA man Fitzgerald is & I got the impression that he thought Kimmage was approaching the point as a 'cyclist who doped', not as a Gaa man.
He wanted Mayo to win before the All Ireland final was played when they didn't he went on bizarre rant. Strange support for Dublin there.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 29, 2017, 08:16:22 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on September 28, 2017, 05:02:22 PM
Some uncomfortable viewing, Luke Fitzgerald v Kimmage in podcast - initiated because they got into a Twitter spat over the Dubs cheating. First time I've ever felt that Kimmage has been bested and left floundering tbh.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/the-left-wing/the-left-wing-listen-in-full-as-luke-fitzgerald-and-paul-kimmage-face-off-on-dublin-cheating-and-doping-in-sport-36177454.html
I'm really not sure what podcast you were listening to.
Kimmage calmly eviscerated Fitzgerald and poor Lukey was certainly metaphorically, perhaps literally gasping for air at the end of it. I'd say he'll be keeping the head down for a while after it but Kimmage may well have done for his fledgling media career right there.
Fitzgerald came across like a mixture of one of these pro-Trump INTERNET troll types who disintegrate like wet toilet roll when they have to actually debate, and a Fianna Failer on the back foot on the Vincent Browne show circa November 2010. A total lightweight.
His contribution was so cringe-inducing that it made for genuinely awkward listening.
The one on the link provided. Found out since this is an 8m version and the full interview was 44m, so maybe not a true reflection tbf. Views on the interview as per usual seem to the usual 2 camps, Kimmage minions & rugger buggers claiming victory.
As a rugger bugger PK made an eejit of LF but then I accept rugby has a drugs problem as do all sports including football and hurling. Human nature and the will to win as we saw with Keegan and those Dublin footballers will nearly always supersede morals and ethics. There is however different levels of cheating from sophisticated doping programs, to feigning injury, to ball tampering to deliberately injuring a player etc etc. In my opinion rules and laws of the game are there to provide a framework, you know in sport that if you break the rule/law there will be consequences, best example is probably in soccer, player is through on goal, last defender takes him out, straight red card, the player knows it, the ref knows it, everyone knows it, to me that is not cheating, it's playing the game within the framework.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on September 28, 2017, 03:01:55 PM
I think for a lot of these end of game fouls like happened in the AI final,we are trying to solve the wrong problem.
The object of dragging these men down and throwing the tee away etc is time wasting. If that is the case, the referee should be adding the time additional time on, which at the minute doesn't really happen.
if players thought that the time would be added on again anyway, there wouldn't really be any point in the time wasting.
Players do this to buy them time to get set up again and pick up any loose players. Not just to waste time. Adding on the time is no big deterrent, when you've illegally managed to stop a quick counter attack.
A free at the other end of the field for kicking away tees and blocking the kick out would be a bigger deterrent.
And good strong Refs who would implement that against the bigger teams and Authorities with the strength and balls to back them up.