There appears to be a significant increase in these injuries in recent weeks. I know in Kildare we have four of our panel currently sidelined:
Peter Kelly - injured in the opening minutes of UCD's first O'Byrne Cup game
Ken Donnelly - ruptured his cruciate last May, made a few sporadic appearances during the summer and had surgery after Kildare were beaten
Mikey Conway - went off injured against Wicklow in 2009 and hasn't kicked a ball in anger since, supposedly close to a return
Dermot Earley - suffered a reoccurance last week while in recovery
Robert Kelly has made a full return this year after doing his cruciate in the league last season. With the recent news that both David Moran and Colm O'Neill will be ruled out for the year, there has been plenty of talk in the media about this particular injury. Are there any specific reasons why cruciate injuries seem to be happening more frequently?
- Are modern training methods contributing to the problem?
- Are the boots players are wearing an issue?
- Is it simply a case that this problem has always existed and it's just easier to diagnose nowadays?
There is an article in today's Examiner in which Johnny Doyle has suggested that sand-based pitches could be a contributing factor: http://www.examiner.ie/sport/gaa/doyle-links-cruciate-injury-rise-to-pitches-151256.html (http://www.examiner.ie/sport/gaa/doyle-links-cruciate-injury-rise-to-pitches-151256.html)
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on April 13, 2011, 01:34:07 PM
There appears to be a significant increase in these injuries in recent weeks. I know in Kildare we have four of our panel currently sidelined:
Peter Kelly - injured in the opening minutes of UCD's first O'Byrne Cup game
Ken Donnelly - ruptured his cruciate last May, made a few sporadic appearances during the summer and had surgery after Kildare were beaten
Mikey Conway - went off injured against Wicklow in 2009 and hasn't kicked a ball in anger since, supposedly close to a return
Dermot Earley - suffered a reoccurance last week while in recovery
Robert Kelly has made a full return this year after doing his cruciate in the league last season. With the recent news that both David Moran and Colm O'Neill will be ruled out for the year, there has been plenty of talk in the media about this particular injury. Are there any specific reasons why cruciate injuries seem to be happening more frequently?
- Are modern training methods contributing to the problem?
- Are the boots players are wearing an issue?
- Is it simply a case that this problem has always existed and it's just easier to diagnose nowadays?
There is an article in today's Examiner in which Johnny Doyle has suggested that sand-based pitches could be a contributing factor: http://www.examiner.ie/sport/gaa/doyle-links-cruciate-injury-rise-to-pitches-151256.html (http://www.examiner.ie/sport/gaa/doyle-links-cruciate-injury-rise-to-pitches-151256.html)
A bit of all three I would postulate.
Modern training in pre season is so geared towards "conditioning" that when players get full contact he is not really fit to take the force of a very powerful hit. There is an over emphasis on upper body conditioning.
There are also major problems with the boots that players wear in many circumstances. Some teams have banned players from using blades(Man Utd being the most high profile) do to the fact that they do not turn in the ground the way 6 studs will whenever someone moves their body and consequently cause injuries.
The general better medical care of players is a factor too and the injuries are more easily diagnosed and treated. Not that log ago if this injury happened it was a career ender and there was nothing but a goodbye note in the local player. Nowadays players can be back within a relatively short space of time.
I think though the biggest factor is the enhanced media coverage of the games. Every players injury is highlighted. I remember Geezer i think it was did his cruciiate back in his early county career and was told there was nothing he could do apart from build the muscle around it. This wasn't headline news at the time and he simply got on with it. Nowadays every broken toe nail is all over forums like this and we are much more aware of it.
Modern training has become way more intensive in the last 10-15 years. It is not surprising that there will be a corresponding increase in over-use injuries. Your cruciate doesn't grow like muscle, so the more you strengthen the muscle the harder you ask the ligaments to work. Any system will always fail at the weakest point so it seems like the ligament has become the weakest point in the modern footballer.
But there is a second aspect to modern times. Diagnosis has dramatically improved. 20-30 years ago people didn't use to look for the exact cause of medical symptoms just accepted they existed. you can perform most non-energetic activities without the cruciate so I guess there are probably a lot of former players with damaged or bust cruciate's that have no idea this was their problem, simply that they have "bad knees"!
A guy in our club has partially torn his acl (2/3) and he's just waiting on it to go. Is there much he can do apart from visiting Ger Hartman as i think he's £300 or £400 a session.
Quote from: unitedireland on April 13, 2011, 04:10:22 PM
A guy in our club has partially torn his acl (2/3) and he's just waiting on it to go. Is there much he can do apart from visiting Ger Hartman as i think he's £300 or £400 a session.
If there is no cartilage damage or loose tissue around the knee cap he can return to playing if his leg muscles are built up sufficiently. I'm in the same situation (was told at Ulster Independant Clinic it was 80% gone) and have been back now 18 months after a year out. Conor Mortimer played with a partially torn ACL for the last 5/6 years but his recently ruptured putting him out for the year.
Most of the points here are correct regarding correct diagnosis, the ligament now being the weakest point of the leg and certain types of pitches. Would never dream of wearing blades again also.
Don't think the training has much to do with it before you take a powerful hit as the majority of ACL tears happen in very innocuous incidents, very often with no contact at all.
Heard this discussed on the radio this week and a top physio suggested there is a lot of ignorance regarding conditioning and weights now which he thinks contributes to the problem. Very often players are working on their quad muscles over and over and forgetting about the hamstring which leaves the knee unstable to begin with. He said the uneven distribution of muscle means it's only a matter of time until the knee gives way.
Quote from: ExiledGael on April 13, 2011, 05:12:42 PM
Quote from: unitedireland on April 13, 2011, 04:10:22 PM
A guy in our club has partially torn his acl (2/3) and he's just waiting on it to go. Is there much he can do apart from visiting Ger Hartman as i think he's £300 or £400 a session.
If there is no cartilage damage or loose tissue around the knee cap he can return to playing if his leg muscles are built up sufficiently. I'm in the same situation (was told at Ulster Independant Clinic it was 80% gone) and have been back now 18 months after a year out. Conor Mortimer played with a partially torn ACL for the last 5/6 years but his recently ruptured putting him out for the year.
Most of the points here are correct regarding correct diagnosis, the ligament now being the weakest point of the leg and certain types of pitches. Would never dream of wearing blades again also.
Don't think the training has much to do with it before you take a powerful hit as the majority of ACL tears happen in very innocuous incidents, very often with no contact at all.
Heard this discussed on the radio this week and a top physio suggested there is a lot of ignorance regarding conditioning and weights now which he thinks contributes to the problem. Very often players are working on their quad muscles over and over and forgetting about the hamstring which leaves the knee unstable to begin with. He said the uneven distribution of muscle means it's only a matter of time until the knee gives way.
what can you do to build the hamstring up? is there such exercises?
Yes. The leg curls that you do for the quads can be reversed (Lie face down on the bench) for the hammies.
There are certainly such machines in the gym (leg curls) so bit of an even spread between that and the leg press will help. I was actually told by a physio to use the leg curl machine for hamstring but never use the one for quads as she thought it made the knee dangerously unstable.
Just type hamstring exercises into google and there are dozens of variations on stuff you can do at home even.
Surely the leg curl is solely for the hamstrings - and the leg extension is for the quadriceps? There can't be a leg curl for the quads - can there?
It's leg extension for the quads
Quote from: maximus on April 13, 2011, 07:04:37 PM
It's leg extension for the quads
That's right, sort of looks like same machine though.
Stability and proprioception are key as well. Stand on your damaged/weak leg only and move from pointing your other foot as far forward as possible to moving it as far back as possible, to moving it to the side. (Not a great description but hopefully you'll know what I mean)
Do it really slowly and check how stable you are. Are you swaying all over the place or is it all a smooth movement? There are various exercies that will improve your stablity.
Went through this last year (no tear, just stretched and twisted ACL) and going through it again now (partial tear).
Pfffffffffffftt!! Just out of hospital this morning after my 2nd ACL repair in 3 years. Both happened very differently. One was I went up for a high catch from righ to left, I misjudged just how high I was and when my right foot planted the knee just gave way.
A month ago I was running up the side of the pitch, layed off a pass and was hit late while my left foot was planted and the knee just buckled as my foot had nowhere to go. Both occasions I was wearing 6 studs and if I were to blame anything I would say it's pitches.
It's a hoor of a injury though and a nightmare to come back from. I'm 29 now and will be 30 by the time I'm allowed to play again and that is IF I do the full rehab. I'm not sure if I have the stomach for it anymore after I came ck after 6 months the last time but never really felt comfortable until 12 months. It's a long time in football especially at this stage. Will just have to play it by ear!
Quote from: screenexile on April 13, 2011, 11:08:39 PM
Pfffffffffffftt!! Just out of hospital this morning after my 2nd ACL repair in 3 years. Both happened very differently. One was I went up for a high catch from righ to left, I misjudged just how high I was and when my right foot planted the knee just gave way.
A month ago I was running up the side of the pitch, layed off a pass and was hit late while my left foot was planted and the knee just buckled as my foot had nowhere to go. Both occasions I was wearing 6 studs and if I were to blame anything I would say it's pitches.
It's a hoor of a injury though and a nightmare to come back from. I'm 29 now and will be 30 by the time I'm allowed to play again and that is IF I do the full rehab. I'm not sure if I have the stomach for it anymore after I came ck after 6 months the last time but never really felt comfortable until 12 months. It's a long time in football especially at this stage. Will just have to play it by ear!
Good luck with the recovery - would have to agree that it the playing surface has a lot to do with it.
I tore my cruciate playing gaelic on a council pitch - a year later, one of my clubmates got exactly the same injury on the same pitch.
Turns out that a lot of people use the pitch to practise their golf, leaving huge divots in the ground. Have heard of another few injuries of this kind on that pitch since.
Barrybreen, you must have caught your leg in a divot because it wouldn't have been from getting hit when you were running!
Paul 'Dule' Braniff wrecked his cruciate in Gaelic park, New York where they'd covered the baseball diamond in the corner with sods. He got his foot caught in it whilst being hit with a shoulder and the leg had nowhere to go. Absolute balls of a pitch and has taken a yard of pace of the lad since!
On the prevention issue, if the likes of McGeeney and others were given programs to strengthen the muscles round the knee to help partially torn cruciates, then why are these exercises not a given for people with good knees to prevent the bloody thing happening in the first place?
Quote from: Banana Man on April 13, 2011, 05:43:34 PM
what can you do to build the hamstring up? is there such exercises?
You are far better off doing Nordic curls than the usual curls.
The usual weight bench hamstring curls will shorten and embrittle the muscle.
While it (hamstring curl) will help to balance the leg front/back as ExiledGael correctly points out is the cause of many ligament tendon injuries*, it will also make you more susceptible to hamstring injuries.
So do the nordic curls for hamstrings.
See here for what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlMCDT4KsgM
*such as patella tendonitis.
Lads ,Hamstring Curls,Knee extensions/Leg Presses and all those machine weights in reality are not worth a shit for GAA players.
Deep squats, Weighted Lunges,Bulgarian Split Squats, Straight-Legged deadlifts etc are the way to go to strengthen the Hamstrings and Quad muscles.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 14, 2011, 03:30:21 PM
Barrybreen, you must have caught your leg in a divot because it wouldn't have been from getting hit when you were running!
Was actually tryin to stop, bcb - I was one of the few players in Ireland who could get injured while standing still.
Found this abstract on pubmed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=gaelic%20football%20and%20Cruciate%20ligament (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=gaelic%20football%20and%20Cruciate%20ligament)
This is interesting too - if not directly on topic, and a little out of date
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1332231/pdf/brjsmed00012-0016.pdf (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1332231/pdf/brjsmed00012-0016.pdf)
Full list of published papers available on pubmed regarding Gaelic Football. Particularly liked the one regarding effect of contact sports on emergency department attendance rates...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=gaelic%20football (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=gaelic%20football)
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on April 14, 2011, 04:13:53 PM
Lads ,Hamstring Curls,Knee extensions/Leg Presses and all those machine weights in reality are not worth a shit for GAA players.
Deep squats, Weighted Lunges,Bulgarian Split Squats, Straight-Legged deadlifts etc are the way to go to strengthen the Hamstrings and Quad muscles.
Provided your core stability is in perfect sync. Most Gaa club players- this is not the case and the exercises you're suggesting actually cause as many injuries to the hamstrings and lower back.
I'd point out I do actually agree with you its just that with core stability chronically neglected at club level those exercises rarely get used properly.
Just more people playing nowadays, plus as someone has said more media attention. Pitches are a hundred times better than the shite ones from years ago (the 80's) Training methods are considerably better than methods used back in the day. Running up hills with your team mate on your back, running up sandy dunes!! No core training just running no diets either!!
Never had these injuries, played (still do) from juvenile through to senior in both codes and only ever had a sore leg or cramp!!
Man up lads FFS
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on April 14, 2011, 04:08:19 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on April 13, 2011, 05:43:34 PM
what can you do to build the hamstring up? is there such exercises?
You are far better off doing Nordic curls than the usual curls.
The usual weight bench hamstring curls will shorten and embrittle the muscle.
While it (hamstring curl) will help to balance the leg front/back as ExiledGael correctly points out is the cause of many ligament tendon injuries*, it will also make you more susceptible to hamstring injuries.
So do the nordic curls for hamstrings.
See here for what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlMCDT4KsgM
*such as patella tendonitis.
Is this not just an eccentric stretch as opposed to a strengthening exercise? (My understanding of eccentric is that it effectively lengthens muscles while the concentric stuff will contract them)
A lot of calf rehabilitation is a combination of the two.
Don't get me wrong the eccentric stuff is good but you want strenghtening too. (Strengthening shortens muscles due to concentric nature but you combine this with your eccentric stuff to counteract this...)
Quote from: imtommygunn on April 14, 2011, 11:02:10 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on April 14, 2011, 04:08:19 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on April 13, 2011, 05:43:34 PM
what can you do to build the hamstring up? is there such exercises?
You are far better off doing Nordic curls than the usual curls.
The usual weight bench hamstring curls will shorten and embrittle the muscle.
While it (hamstring curl) will help to balance the leg front/back as ExiledGael correctly points out is the cause of many ligament tendon injuries*, it will also make you more susceptible to hamstring injuries.
So do the nordic curls for hamstrings.
See here for what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlMCDT4KsgM
*such as patella tendonitis.
Is this not just an eccentric stretch as opposed to a strengthening exercise? (My understanding of eccentric is that it effectively lengthens muscles while the concentric stuff will contract them)
A lot of calf rehabilitation is a combination of the two.
Don't get me wrong the eccentric stuff is good but you want strenghtening too. (Strengthening shortens muscles due to concentric nature but you combine this with your eccentric stuff to counteract this...)
I've heard before that you strengthen more while working the muscles eccentricly? Not sure if its true. They say fast up, flow down when you are doing a bench press for example, so that you are getting the eccentric work as well.
The exercise i find useful is the one where you lie on your back with your heel on a swiss ball and you lift your arse off the ground and then roll the ball in to our arse and out again. Works the stability muscles in the hamstring, the problem with the curl machines in the gym or even the nordic curls is that they don't work on the stabilising part of the muscle.
unfortunately there might be another high profile one after this evenings club games, but i hope im wrong.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 16, 2011, 08:09:31 PM
unfortunately there might be another high profile one after this evenings club games, but i hope im wrong.
Were your suspicions confirmed?
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 16, 2011, 08:09:31 PM
unfortunately there might be another high profile one after this evenings club games, but i hope im wrong.
Heard that too Hoof, that could end any hopes of success for Derry or the Glen! I know people say playing with the 2 Bradleys stifles us but I'd rather be without Eoin
Aidan Wals too landed very badly on his knee last night. Not sure what the story is ther.
Quote from: screenexile on April 17, 2011, 09:23:12 AM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 16, 2011, 08:09:31 PM
unfortunately there might be another high profile one after this evenings club games, but i hope im wrong.
Heard that too Hoof, that could end any hopes of success for Derry or the Glen! I know people say playing with the 2 Bradleys stifles us but I'd rather be without Eoin
he was playing well, esp in the 1st half. as usual with these things it was innocuous looking, he fisted the ball and then went down in agony.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 17, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: screenexile on April 17, 2011, 09:23:12 AM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 16, 2011, 08:09:31 PM
unfortunately there might be another high profile one after this evenings club games, but i hope im wrong.
Heard that too Hoof, that could end any hopes of success for Derry or the Glen! I know people say playing with the 2 Bradleys stifles us but I'd rather be without Eoin
he was playing well, esp in the 1st half. as usual with these things it was innocuous looking, he fisted the ball and then went down in agony.
Paddy Bradley??
Quote from: leaveherinsir on April 17, 2011, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 17, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: screenexile on April 17, 2011, 09:23:12 AM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 16, 2011, 08:09:31 PM
unfortunately there might be another high profile one after this evenings club games, but i hope im wrong.
Heard that too Hoof, that could end any hopes of success for Derry or the Glen! I know people say playing with the 2 Bradleys stifles us but I'd rather be without Eoin
he was playing well, esp in the 1st half. as usual with these things it was innocuous looking, he fisted the ball and then went down in agony.
Paddy Bradley??
correct Sherlock !
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 17, 2011, 09:57:28 AM
Quote from: leaveherinsir on April 17, 2011, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 17, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: screenexile on April 17, 2011, 09:23:12 AM
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on April 16, 2011, 08:09:31 PM
unfortunately there might be another high profile one after this evenings club games, but i hope im wrong.
Heard that too Hoof, that could end any hopes of success for Derry or the Glen! I know people say playing with the 2 Bradleys stifles us but I'd rather be without Eoin
he was playing well, esp in the 1st half. as usual with these things it was innocuous looking, he fisted the ball and then went down in agony.
Paddy Bradley??
correct Sherlock !
Took a bit of workin out alright!! :P. Not good for Derry if it is the case.
Not good at all. Hope it's not confirmed as such.
Quote from: orangeman on April 17, 2011, 12:13:51 PM
Not good at all. Hope it's not confirmed as such.
Worst confirmed.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2011/0418/bradleyp_derry.html
Disaster for Derry and for PB, hopefully he recovers fully.
hope he makes a full recovery. been playing some football so far this year. We play Glenullin in 8 weeks time in the c'ship and would like to see him back for then. would there be many high profile rugby or soccer players getting cruciate injuries? I appreciate that they are different sports than Gaelic but I can't think of many off the top of my head. I know of ones that would play soccer at a low level and get them but I am talking about professionals. I think it has been mentioned on here before about Alex Ferguson banning 'blades' from OT. wonder how much footwear has to do with it?
Don't think that can be officially confirmed until the scan but if it is the cruciate best of luck to him. I wouldn't wish it on anybody because it's a long road back especially when you're hitting the 30 mark. He'll be a big blow to our plans for the year anyway!
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/in-the-safest-pair-of-hands-with-dr-cruciate-ray-moran-1.1636171
In the safest pair of hands with Dr Cruciate – Ray Moran
A one-stop shop for the full array of sporting ailments, not just those requiring surgery
Dr. Ray Moran, consultant orthopaedic Surgeon, in Sports Surgery Clinic's 3D stop-motion laboratory.Photograph: Dave Meehan
Ray Moran picks up a plastic model of the knee, and holding it between both hands, makes one simple twisting movement from side to side, as if breaking the neck of a little bird.
"What happens is you turn, or land, or put some tension into it, and 'snap', it just goes," he says, pointing to a thin, flesh-coloured fibrous strip, which looks as if it's been threaded up through the middle of the knee, joining the thigh bone to the shin bone. "And to some extent it's not fit for purpose. It's certainly a bit miserable for the job it has to do.
"Because relative to the size of the knee, it's not a big member. And it is still such an innocuous injury, in many cases involving a simple change of direction, with no contact whatsoever. I suppose that's still the scary thing about it."
It is the anterior cruciate ligament – more typically whispered as the ACL, sometimes going unmentioned for fear of a jinx, or else cursed out loud with a series of dirty expletives whenever that 'snap' is heard on the field of play. And for all the advances in sports science and strength and conditioning it can still tear apart as easy and wretchedly as putting a scissors to a piece of string.
Which is where Moran comes in: he wasn't the first person in the world to perform surgical reconstruction on the ACL, but after 20 years in the business, he's long since lost count of how many times he's made the small surgical incision in the front of the knee, inserted the tiny arthroscopic camera, and with freshly stripped portions of tendon sliced from the hamstring and kneecap, begins to deftly rethread the cruciate, finishing it all off in less than an hour by stiching everything back into place – then sending the patient off to begin nine months rehabilitation.
Moran is telling me this in his consultant's suite at the Sports Surgery Clinic in Santry, where, a couple of hundred times every year, he tells patients from a wide referral basis the same thing, possibly in more lurid detail, before calmly reassuring them it is all perfectly fixable. Still it's hard to imagine being told this for real, especially the elite player who would miss a full season as a result. But if someone has to tell you, they don't come better qualified than Moran.
Learning process
It's been a long learning process. After returning from a fellowship in the US, Moran was working in the A&E at Beaumont, where one night a GAA player came in with a broken arm, lining up with the other casualties. "I remember thinking 'this doesn't make sense', there has to be a better way": now, the Santry Clinic – which Moran started up in 2007 – is a one-stop shop for the full array of sporting ailments, not just those requiring surgery.
Recently they have added a running re-education system designed to improve the rehabilitation.
Yet he is their Dr Cruciate, knowing everything there is to know about that thin, flesh-coloured fibrous strip: with that Moran can also strip away the many myths from the simple realities, including the notion that ACL tears are somehow only a recent curse.
"We've certainly evolved from chasing the bison, or whatever it is, to feed the family," he says. "And sport has taken the knee a little bit by surprise, bringing in high-speed torque, and rotation. And the cruciate is a very small ligament for that job. So a player changes position, or jumps and fields a ball, and the knee buckles on him.
"But what's new about that? Those features have always been in games.
The reality
"The reality is that 20 years ago there was very little recognition of the cruciate. There weren't MRI scans. I still come across guys in their 50s and 60s who tore their cruciate 20 years ago, and just didn't realise it. They had enough cartilage on the side of the knee to get through it. But they have no cruciate ligament. In fact a lot of those were told they had a 'weak' knee. Or a 'dodgy' knee.
But nearly all of those were actually torn cruciates, and just weren't recognised. Some of them were actually sent back to play. That seems ludicrous now, but that was the sequence."
Moran admits he came into the knee surgery business with a bit of a head start – not just because of his own sporting background, having played soccer himself from an early age growing up in Dublin, but also as the older brother of Kevin Moran, formerly of Dublin gaelic football, Manchester United and Republic of Ireland fame.
"I did play a bit myself, but I was useless," he says. "Let's be quite clear about that. And at home, as the older brother, I had to reluctantly recognise that Kevin was actually good. So he sent me in the direction of early retirement. But some of the sporting interest came off my brother, yes, and I think it was natural enough that I went into sports practice.
"But with patients, too, coming from a sporting background, you'd be somewhat more empathetic. And that's really lived on. You would never put a patient at risk. But at the same time you're not immune to it being the beginning of a season, a big match coming up, or whatever.
"Sometimes in those circumstances you balance the judgment a little between coming back a little earlier, with maybe a little bit more risk. But not in a reckless way. There's a grey area in the middle, where you might be able to shave a couple of weeks off the rehab programme."
As good as it gets
That, however, is as good as it gets: along with the notion that cruciate tears didn't happen 20 years ago, there is no truth in the notion that someday the injury will be preventable, or even surgically repaired to the point of near total reliability.
"No, we won't ever prevent it. It's about diminishing the prevalence. There is some evidence, in Norway, for example, with female netballers, that certain training programmes can diminish the prevalence. And that can be applied to all sports. There are some surgical changes as well, for high-risk cases, like using a bit of the illiotibial band, to create a new ligament.
Like a sort of bionic knee? "No, and there won't be. We could reach the stage where a six-month return would be considered a quick-fix. And we do get some cases where if its tears off very high, or very low, it can be knitted back together. But repairing is never as good as replacing."
There was, a few years ago, also the notion that surgical intervention mightn't be needed at all, that the injured player could carry on through rehab alone. This is what Henry Shefflin thought, before the 2010 All-Ireland hurling final, although unfortunately he didn't last long.
"You always get cases when people can manage, through muscular control. But they are the exception. And you can't build a practice on exception. The downside of not doing the surgery is the risk of further damage to the knee joint.
"And if it's ruptured it's usually complete. So getting rid of the problem is not an option. A guaranteed no. We could be still sitting here in 100 years and talking about cruciate injuries. Because it's wrong to promote the idea we can eliminate the risk. That's just fantasy."
Other notions
There are, however, other notions, such as the GAA player somehow being more at risk (Cork footballer Colm O'Neill, for example, currently recovering from a third tear in six years, and he's not yet 25); or the notion modern football boots are somehow to blame, with their rigid blades rather than studs. Moran strips all that away, too.
"The blades were getting blamed, but if they were slipping on the foot, the level of rotation going through the knee would be diminished. If they were the old big studs, then the foot wouldn't slip as easy, and that would have the opposite effect, increase the rotation going through the knee. So I'm not so sure about the boots.
"Now we do see an awful lot of GAA players, but that's simply because of the numbers that play. The rates would be the same in basketball, and most of the field sports that involves any rotational episode. This is a 'land-buckle-torque' injury. It's doesn't matter how well conditioned the player is, either. Because it's a mechanism thing.
"The increase in physicality is a concern, especially in rugby, but, by the same virtue, players are more conditioned now than ever before. It's always a bit of a balancing act, and any field sport will bring on that reality.
"So you're either going to play sport or you're not. That's not being fatalistic about it. That's just the way it is. Anyone who thinks you can divorce that reality from the game, well, it ain't going to happen, We can hose it down a bit, but it will be there. Injury is part of the nature of sport."All this talk leaves me feeling a little weak in both knees, walking carefully out of the door, thinking of that little bird breaking its neck, knowing at least I'd be close to the safest pair of hands.
Third time's a charm!!
Disaster was playing a stupid over 35s game when I should have known better. Anyway as its not covered I wanted to know if anyone has done it through NHS? How long does it take and also how long until you start feeling better with it as in when I've done it previously I've had the surgery fairly quickly but I imagine it will be between 6\12 months on NHS so I wonder how you can cope with the injury for that length of time. Also I've a golf trip in 9 weeks would it be possible to play in that short a timeframe?
Quote from: screenexile on July 01, 2015, 08:56:55 PM
Third time's a charm!!
Disaster was playing a stupid over 35s game when I should have known better. Anyway as its not covered I wanted to know if anyone has done it through NHS? How long does it take and also how long until you start feeling better with it as in when I've done it previously I've had the surgery fairly quickly but I imagine it will be between 6\12 months on NHS so I wonder how you can cope with the injury for that length of time. Also I've a golf trip in 9 weeks would it be possible to play in that short a timeframe?
Terrible bad luck SE
Quote from: screenexile on July 01, 2015, 08:56:55 PM
Third time's a charm!!
Disaster was playing a stupid over 35s game when I should have known better. Anyway as its not covered I wanted to know if anyone has done it through NHS? How long does it take and also how long until you start feeling better with it as in when I've done it previously I've had the surgery fairly quickly but I imagine it will be between 6\12 months on NHS so I wonder how you can cope with the injury for that length of time. Also I've a golf trip in 9 weeks would it be possible to play in that short a timeframe?
That's awful screen, best of luck with the rehab!
Quote from: screenexile on July 01, 2015, 08:56:55 PM
Third time's a charm!!
Disaster was playing a stupid over 35s game when I should have known better. Anyway as its not covered I wanted to know if anyone has done it through NHS? How long does it take and also how long until you start feeling better with it as in when I've done it previously I've had the surgery fairly quickly but I imagine it will be between 6\12 months on NHS so I wonder how you can cope with the injury for that length of time. Also I've a golf trip in 9 weeks would it be possible to play in that short a timeframe?
6/12 months is wildly optimistic. Could be that length before you are given MRi to clearly determine exact injury (even if you know what it is). Place in Sligo now doing MRi scans for around €200 could be worth looking at to speed things up. I was on NHS for 4 months before getting MRi and then decided to go private. Also I'm not sure you will be deemed worthy of cruciate surgery on NHS, depends on age, fitness, mobility etc.
As for playing other sport soon, it depends on ligament tear and your leg. Have seen some players with torn cruciates even attepting to play football again within a few weeks, there are very varying degrees of cruciate tears. It's not always straightforward and 100% torn so you may have enough muscle and strength in leg to play golf etc.
Is it only me or are there less ACL injuries as past couple of years ?.
Quote from: orangeman on December 16, 2016, 11:54:14 PM
Is it only me or are there less ACL injuries as past couple of years ?.
New trend is hip injuries.
Quote from: muppet on December 17, 2016, 12:20:15 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 17, 2016, 12:07:02 AM
Quote from: orangeman on December 16, 2016, 11:54:14 PM
Is it only me or are there less ACL injuries as past couple of years ?.
New trend is hip injuries.
Very good.
Speaking from experience, they're very hard to shake off and really do impact on your daily life. Thankfully I've never had to deal with a cruciate injury and I hope I never have to. I don't think they're any less prevalent this year than they were in 2015 or in previous years, although if the stats do show that there were less ACL injuries in the last few years, possibly it is because S&C coaches are more aware of the prevalence of the injury and exercises that can help prevent it.
Quote from: hardstation on December 17, 2016, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 17, 2016, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 17, 2016, 12:37:08 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 17, 2016, 12:34:29 AM
Lol
Whoosh.
Now I understand how someone can rack up more than 23000 posts.
Oh yes, deflection. Good lad.
There isn't much deflection needed from a post with all the intellectual prowess of an eleven year old in 2005 texting with their first mobile phone.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 17, 2016, 12:44:01 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 17, 2016, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 17, 2016, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 17, 2016, 12:37:08 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 17, 2016, 12:34:29 AM
Lol
Whoosh.
Now I understand how someone can rack up more than 23000 posts.
Oh yes, deflection. Good lad.
There isn't much deflection needed from a post with all the intellectual prowess of an eleven year old in 2005 texting with their first mobile phone.
Jesus lad you didn't get Muppet's quip about the hips. No need to huff. Some people are just a bit slower than others.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 17, 2016, 12:47:10 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 17, 2016, 12:44:01 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 17, 2016, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 17, 2016, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 17, 2016, 12:37:08 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 17, 2016, 12:34:29 AM
Lol
Whoosh.
Now I understand how someone can rack up more than 23000 posts.
Oh yes, deflection. Good lad.
There isn't much deflection needed from a post with all the intellectual prowess of an eleven year old in 2005 texting with their first mobile phone.
Jesus lad you didn't get Muppet's quip about the hips. No need to huff. Some people are just a bit slower than others.
I'll have to accept defeat this time.
McBrearty this time . . . so disappointing it would have been great to see him in the Super 8's hopefully he has a good recovery an absolute class player!
Awful for Paddy - he's a joy to watch
Sorry to hear this.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Disaster for a county like Donegal to lose McBrearty at the business end of the season!
Shit. I hate to hear that. I think he's brilliant to watch.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 26, 2018, 02:27:53 PM
Shit. I hate to hear that. I think he's brilliant to watch.
+1
Wonderful footballer, amazing that he's still only 24. Hopefully a quick recovery.
I did notice he seems to be carrying a lot of extra junk in the trunk lately, he looks more like a powerlifer than an inside forward. That added mass is always going to put more pressure on ligaments that remain the same size, who knows if it actually contributed to the injury, though.
Serious baller. Huge loss for Donegal at this stage of the season. Hope he makes a speedy recovery.
Quote from: Syferus on June 26, 2018, 02:39:36 PM
Wonderful footballer, amazing that he's still only 24. Hopefully a quick recovery.
I did notice he seems to be carrying a lot of extra junk in the trunk lately, he looks more like a powerlifer than an inside forward. That added mass is always going to put more pressure on ligaments that remain the same size, who knows if it actually contributed to the injury, though.
Some man. Definite polymath.
Quote from: tiempo on June 26, 2018, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 26, 2018, 02:39:36 PM
Wonderful footballer, amazing that he's still only 24. Hopefully a quick recovery.
I did notice he seems to be carrying a lot of extra junk in the trunk lately, he looks more like a powerlifer than an inside forward. That added mass is always going to put more pressure on ligaments that remain the same size, who knows if it actually contributed to the injury, though.
Some man. Definite polymath.
???
Quote from: screenexile on June 26, 2018, 12:34:20 PM
McBrearty this time . . . so disappointing it would have been great to see him in the Super 8's hopefully he has a good recovery an absolute class player!
Yes very disappointing. A joy to watch one of the few players that has the ability to light up the All Ireland series. Best of luck to him in his recovery.
In my view, the most effective forward in Ireland at the minute. I love his shoot on site style. Such a shame about this injury, was really looking forward to seeing him in the super 8. Hope he has a speedy recovery.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 26, 2018, 03:37:32 PM
In my view, the most effective forward in Ireland at the minute. I love his shoot on site style. Such a shame about this injury, was really looking forward to seeing him in the super 8. Hope he has a speedy recovery.
Reminds me of Stephen O'Neill in his play. Meets the ball at speed and an excellent turn and shot.
terrible news , he really is the type of player that could turn also rans into contenders and there few of them about. this was going to be his year
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 26, 2018, 03:37:32 PM
In my view, the most effective forward in Ireland at the minute. I love his shoot on site style. Such a shame about this injury, was really looking forward to seeing him in the super 8. Hope he has a speedy recovery.
Building from the front.
Terrible news. Some player - the rest of the Championship will be poorer without him.
Awful for the lad. Some player and great style of footballer for kids to watch. Big loss.
Quote from: spuds on June 26, 2018, 04:48:17 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 26, 2018, 03:37:32 PM
In my view, the most effective forward in Ireland at the minute. I love his shoot on site style. Such a shame about this injury, was really looking forward to seeing him in the super 8. Hope he has a speedy recovery.
Building from the front.
Yes - not a fan of off site shooting.