Muslim gangs abusing children in England

[seafoid]

Tarring a community because of the sins of a few is wrong especially for Irish people given our history. Jesus Christ!

Human nature has a very dark side and it is not exclusive to any group or nation.  The dark web has millions of images of child abuse for example. Pro anorexia websites encourage vulnerable young women to starve themselves to death. Criminals traffic women to Ireland to work as sex slaves.

[The Iceman]

Much to respond to there Iceman.

No, I wouldn't want my family or myself living in a middle eastern society. It has nothing to do with Islam in isolation - it's the combination of the society that I have no interest in. I wouldn't want us living in an Asian culture either necessarily

So long as you continue to hold this view below - I have to argue you are straying into being morally crooked as opposed to straight. That is an incredibly large, and ignorant brush stroke (no matter how much you claim to know about Islam - which I won't argue could be more than me).

Islam is dangerous. True Islam is dangerous. I don't think it has a place in a functioning, peaceful western society.

You have always been devoted to the Catholic Church - what does your religion and your religious leader state about Islam? I doubt very much the Pope would let you slide with the above.

You would be shocked what I hear from the pulpit every week Puck. It wouldn't slide with your leftist ideals at all mate.
My Pastor is one of the most intelligent men I've ever met. He's a real scholar. His homilies are easily a half hour every Mass (that's including week days) and it's like going to a lecture. The richness and depth of his teaching is great.
He has repeatedly affirmed the above messaging. He believes and the Church believes that Islam is the single greatest threat to western civilization we face today.  You may not want to hear that but I hear it and I believe it. 
If you read the Qu'ran in chronological order when Mohammad moved from being a man of Peace to a War Monger he wrote that everything he wrote in the second part of his life supersedes the earlier life and earlier writings.  He taught "convert, subjugate or kill". There is nothing peaceful about that.... where do you think Jihad comes from?
It's a religion, in it's truest form, that suppresses women, encourages violence against those of us who would not be converted and uses the sword to spread....

[Puckoon]

There's rogue pastors and individuals all over many religions making their living through charismatic preaching and preying on naturally existing predispositions - what does your papal leader say about Islam?

That aside - as I mentioned in my initial post we are facing an ever increasing mix of many attributes that were once confined to separate countries and "identities". Assimilating these mixes peacefully and seamlessly is a challenge, of that there is no doubt. Nationalism as it's currently being peddled from a political perspective is pissing in the wind of the reality of human movement throughout the world and is a futile effort.

I find the dehumanizing/downgrading of the human elements that make up any certain demographic to be dangerous rhetoric at best.

[seafoid]

Much to respond to there Iceman.

No, I wouldn't want my family or myself living in a middle eastern society. It has nothing to do with Islam in isolation - it's the combination of the society that I have no interest in. I wouldn't want us living in an Asian culture either necessarily

So long as you continue to hold this view below - I have to argue you are straying into being morally crooked as opposed to straight. That is an incredibly large, and ignorant brush stroke (no matter how much you claim to know about Islam - which I won't argue could be more than me).

Islam is dangerous. True Islam is dangerous. I don't think it has a place in a functioning, peaceful western society.

You have always been devoted to the Catholic Church - what does your religion and your religious leader state about Islam? I doubt very much the Pope would let you slide with the above.

You would be shocked what I hear from the pulpit every week Puck. It wouldn't slide with your leftist ideals at all mate.
My Pastor is one of the most intelligent men I've ever met. He's a real scholar. His homilies are easily a half hour every Mass (that's including week days) and it's like going to a lecture. The richness and depth of his teaching is great.
He has repeatedly affirmed the above messaging. He believes and the Church believes that Islam is the single greatest threat to western civilization we face today.  You may not want to hear that but I hear it and I believe it. 
If you read the Qu'ran in chronological order when Mohammad moved from being a man of Peace to a War Monger he wrote that everything he wrote in the second part of his life supersedes the earlier life and earlier writings.  He taught "convert, subjugate or kill". There is nothing peaceful about that.... where do you think Jihad comes from?
It's a religion, in it's truest form, that suppresses women, encourages violence against those of us who would not be converted and uses the sword to spread....

Climate change is scary. Islam isn't

[HiMucker]

Much to respond to there Iceman.

No, I wouldn't want my family or myself living in a middle eastern society. It has nothing to do with Islam in isolation - it's the combination of the society that I have no interest in. I wouldn't want us living in an Asian culture either necessarily

So long as you continue to hold this view below - I have to argue you are straying into being morally crooked as opposed to straight. That is an incredibly large, and ignorant brush stroke (no matter how much you claim to know about Islam - which I won't argue could be more than me).

Islam is dangerous. True Islam is dangerous. I don't think it has a place in a functioning, peaceful western society.

You have always been devoted to the Catholic Church - what does your religion and your religious leader state about Islam? I doubt very much the Pope would let you slide with the above.

You would be shocked what I hear from the pulpit every week Puck. It wouldn't slide with your leftist ideals at all mate.
My Pastor is one of the most intelligent men I've ever met. He's a real scholar. His homilies are easily a half hour every Mass (that's including week days) and it's like going to a lecture. The richness and depth of his teaching is great.
He has repeatedly affirmed the above messaging. He believes and the Church believes that Islam is the single greatest threat to western civilization we face today.  You may not want to hear that but I hear it and I believe it. 
If you read the Qu'ran in chronological order when Mohammad moved from being a man of Peace to a War Monger he wrote that everything he wrote in the second part of his life supersedes the earlier life and earlier writings.  He taught "convert, subjugate or kill". There is nothing peaceful about that.... where do you think Jihad comes from?
It's a religion, in it's truest form, that suppresses women, encourages violence against those of us who would not be converted and uses the sword to spread....

I cant seem to square the first part in bold with second part! If your pastor believes that then frankly he is a bin lid. Sadly your whole view on this subject is tainted.

[Mike Tyson]

Much to respond to there Iceman.

No, I wouldn't want my family or myself living in a middle eastern society. It has nothing to do with Islam in isolation - it's the combination of the society that I have no interest in. I wouldn't want us living in an Asian culture either necessarily

So long as you continue to hold this view below - I have to argue you are straying into being morally crooked as opposed to straight. That is an incredibly large, and ignorant brush stroke (no matter how much you claim to know about Islam - which I won't argue could be more than me).

Islam is dangerous. True Islam is dangerous. I don't think it has a place in a functioning, peaceful western society.

You have always been devoted to the Catholic Church - what does your religion and your religious leader state about Islam? I doubt very much the Pope would let you slide with the above.

You would be shocked what I hear from the pulpit every week Puck. It wouldn't slide with your leftist ideals at all mate.
My Pastor is one of the most intelligent men I've ever met. He's a real scholar. His homilies are easily a half hour every Mass (that's including week days) and it's like going to a lecture. The richness and depth of his teaching is great.
He has repeatedly affirmed the above messaging. He believes and the Church believes that Islam is the single greatest threat to western civilization we face today.  You may not want to hear that but I hear it and I believe it. 
If you read the Qu'ran in chronological order when Mohammad moved from being a man of Peace to a War Monger he wrote that everything he wrote in the second part of his life supersedes the earlier life and earlier writings.  He taught "convert, subjugate or kill". There is nothing peaceful about that.... where do you think Jihad comes from?
It's a religion, in it's truest form, that suppresses women, encourages violence against those of us who would not be converted and uses the sword to spread....

Why?

Islam is dangerous. True Islam is dangerous. I don't think it has a place in a functioning, peaceful western society.

Can you list the differences between Islam and Christianity and which of these differences you find dangerous?

Thanks in advance.

Have you had time to compile this list yet?

Thanks.

[dec]

You would be shocked what I hear from the pulpit every week Puck. It wouldn't slide with your leftist ideals at all mate.
My Pastor is one of the most intelligent men I've ever met. He's a real scholar. His homilies are easily a half hour every Mass (that's including week days) and it's like going to a lecture. The richness and depth of his teaching is great.
He has repeatedly affirmed the above messaging. He believes and the Church believes that Islam is the single greatest threat to western civilization we face today. You may not want to hear that but I hear it and I believe it. 

Sounds like a Catholic version of Martyrs Memorial

[The Iceman]

There's rogue pastors and individuals all over many religions making their living through charismatic preaching and preying on naturally existing predispositions - what does your papal leader say about Islam?

That aside - as I mentioned in my initial post we are facing an ever increasing mix of many attributes that were once confined to separate countries and "identities". Assimilating these mixes peacefully and seamlessly is a challenge, of that there is no doubt. Nationalism as it's currently being peddled from a political perspective is pissing in the wind of the reality of human movement throughout the world and is a futile effort.

I find the dehumanizing/downgrading of the human elements that make up any certain demographic to be dangerous rhetoric at best.

It doesn't matter what the Pope personally says about anything Puck. He isn't the church. He's the servant of the Church just like our priest (who btw certainly isn't a rogue Priest).

[Puckoon]

I think that is nonsense ^^^^ He's the head of the Church, Top Dog, King of the Hill, top of the heap!

If he was espousing the same views as you I don't think you'd be long trotting them out!?

[Rossfan]

Is he some fundamentalist Prod self styled Christian when he's called "Pastor"?
I'd imagine half hour ranting from him every Sunday would empty Churches of normal people.

[seafoid]

Is he some fundamentalist Prod self styled Christian when he's called "Pastor"?
I'd imagine half hour ranting from him every Sunday would empty Churches of normal people.

All of this ideas would be pastorised

[heganboy]

He believes and the Church believes that Islam is the single greatest threat to western civilization we face today.  You may not want to hear that but I hear it and I believe it. 

All right all right all right..

Ice, I was of the understanding that you were a particularly devout Catholic, specifically the "One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" as administered by the Roman Curia under the current leadership (at least on this planet) of Jorge Mario Bergoglio aka Pope Francis.

if that is indeed the case, then I'm afraid that this church would have a very profound disagreement with your statements as outlined above. And lets be clear, what you want to hear and what you wish to believe are your choices, and yours alone, not those of the church whose positions you selectively agree with.

You alone pick the pulpit at which you listen, and you alone choose what parts of that teaching to which you adhere.
Your eloquent Pastor does not speak for the catholic church and for the curia, and certainly not for the new testament, the teachings of Christ or Vatican II or catechism.

Quick sample for you below.

John 13:34
Love One Another


...33Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: 'Where I am going, you cannot come.' 34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another."...

Francis, Message to Muslims throughout the world for the end of Ramadan, July 10, 2013

To Muslims throughout the World

It gives me great pleasure to greet you as you celebrate 'Id al-Fitr', so concluding the month of Ramadan, dedicated mainly to fasting, prayer and almsgiving.

It is a tradition by now that, on this occasion, the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. . . sends you a message of good wishes, together with a proposed theme for common reflection. This year, the first of my Pontificate, I have decided to sign this traditional message myself and to send it to you, dear friends, as an expression of esteem and friendship for all Muslims, especially those who are religious leaders.

As you all know, when the Cardinals elected me as Bishop of Rome and Universal Pastor of the Catholic Church, I chose the name of "Francis", a very famous saint who loved God and every human being deeply, to the point of being called "universal brother". He loved, helped and served the needy, the sick and the poor; he also cared greatly for creation.

I am aware that family and social dimensions enjoy a particular prominence for Muslims during this period, and it is worth noting that there are certain parallels in each of these areas with Christian faith and practice.

This year, the theme on which I would like to reflect with you and with all who will read this message is one that concerns both Muslims and Christians: Promoting Mutual Respect through Education.

This year's theme is intended to underline the importance of education in the way we understand each other, built upon the foundation of mutual respect. "Respect" means an attitude of kindness towards people for whom we have consideration and esteem. "Mutual" means that this is not a one-way process, but something shared by both sides.       

What we are called to respect in each person is first of all his life, his physical integrity, his dignity and the rights deriving from that dignity, his reputation, his property, his ethnic and cultural identity, his ideas and his political choices. We are therefore called to think, speak and write respectfully of the other, not only in his presence, but always and everywhere, avoiding unfair criticism or defamation. Families, schools, religious teaching and all forms of media have a role to play in achieving this goal.

Turning to mutual respect in interreligious relations, especially between Christians and Muslims, we are called to respect the religion of the other, its teachings, its symbols, its values. Particular respect is due to religious leaders and to places of worship. How painful are attacks on one or other of these!

It is clear that, when we show respect for the religion of our neighbours or when we offer them our good wishes on the occasion of a religious celebration, we simply seek to share their joy, without making reference to the content of their religious convictions.

Regarding the education of Muslim and Christian youth, we have to bring up our young people to think and speak respectfully of other religions and their followers, and to avoid ridiculing or denigrating their convictions and practices.

We all know that mutual respect is fundamental in any human relationship, especially among people who profess religious belief. In this way, sincere and lasting friendship can grow.

When I received the Diplomatic Corps accredited to the Holy See on 22 March 2013. . . , I said: "It is not possible to establish true links with God, while ignoring other people. Hence it is important to intensify dialogue among the various religions, and I am thinking particularly of dialogue with Islam. At the Mass marking the beginning of my ministry, I greatly appreciated the presence of so many civil and religious leaders from the Islamic world." With these words, I wished to emphasize once more the great importance of dialogue and cooperation among believers, in particular Christians and Muslims, and the need for it to be enhanced.

With these sentiments, I reiterate my hope that all Christians and Muslims may be true promoters of mutual respect and friendship, in particular through education.       

Finally, I send you my prayerful good wishes, that your lives may glorify the Almighty and give joy to those around you.

Happy Feast to you all!

From the Vatican, 10 July 2013


Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

John Paul II, address to a symposium on "Holiness in Christianity and in Islam," Rome, May 9, 1985
"All true holiness comes from God, who is called 'The Holy One' in the sacred books of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Your holy Qur'an calls God 'Al-Quddus,' as in the verse: 'He is God, besides whom there is no other, the Sovereign, the Holy, the (source of) Peace' (Qur'an 59, 23). The prophet Hosea links God's holiness with his forgiving love for mankind, a love which surpasses our ability to comprehend: 'I am God, not man; I am the Holy One in your midst and have no wish to destroy' (Ho 11:9). In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches his disciples that holiness consists in assuming, in our human way, the qualities of God's own holiness which he has revealed to mankind: 'Be holy, even as your heavenly Father is holy' (Mt 5:48).

"Thus the Qur'an calls you to uprightness (al-salah), to conscientious devotion (al-taqwa), to goodness (al-husn), and to virtue (al-birr), which is described as believing in God, giving one's wealth to the needy, freeing captives, being constant in prayer, keeping one's word, and being patient in times of suffering, hardship and violence (Qur'an 2:177). Similarly, St. Paul stresses the love we must show toward all, and the duty to lead a blameless life in the sight of God: 'May the Lord be generous in increasing your love and make you love one another and the whole human race as much as we love you. And may he so confirm your hearts in holiness that you may be blameless in the sight of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus Christ comes with all his saints' (1 Th 3:12-13).

Leviticus 19:18
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against any of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Matthew 5:44
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

John 15:17
This is My command to you: Love one another.

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Outdo yourselves in honoring one another.

Romans 13:8
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Ephesians 5:2
and walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another.

Hebrews 13:1
Continue in brotherly love.

1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart.

1 John 2:7
Beloved, I am not writing you a new commandment, but an old one, which you have had from the beginning. This commandment is the message you have heard.

1 John 2:8
Then again, I am also writing you a new commandment, which is true in Him and also in you. For the darkness is fading and the true light is already shining.

1 John 3:11
This is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:10
And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 John 4:21
And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.

2 John 1:5
And now I urge you, dear lady--not as a new commandment to you, but one we have had from the beginning--that we love one another.

Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3, October 28, 1965
"The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men. Yet she proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is 'the way, the truth and the life' (Jn 1:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2Co 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life.

"The Church, therefore, urges her sons to enter with prudence and charity into discussion and collaboration with members of other religions. Let Christians, while witnessing to their own faith and way of life, acknowledge, preserve and encourage the spiritual and moral truths found among non-Christians, also their social life and culture.

"The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth (Cf. St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148.451A.), who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his Virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.

"Over the centuries many quarrels and dissensions have arisen between Christians and Muslims. The sacred Council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve mutual understanding; for the benefit of all men, let them together preserve and promote peace, liberty, social justice and moral values."

"Therefore, the Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against people or any harassment of them on the basis of their race, color, condition in life or religion. Accordingly, following the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, the sacred Council earnestly begs the Christian faithful to 'conduct themselves well among the Gentiles' (1P 2:12) and if possible, as far as depends on them, to be at peace with all men (cf. Rm 12:18), and in that way to be true sons of the Father who is in heaven (cf. Mt 5:45)."

[easytiger95]

Islam is a younger religion than Christianity. it has not yet the undergone a comparable upheaval as the Catholic church did during the Reformation and Renaissance. Probably more difficult for Islam to do so, as it was never as monolithic as the Roman Church.

During the Caliphate, Islamic cities were centres of study, and of incredible cultural and scientific progress.

Following the collapse of the Ottoman empire, the discovery of oil and the partition of the Middle East by the great powers, the ordinary populations of these countries have been exploited, abused and degraded. Any attempt to draw a generalisation from the behaviour of a small segment of a population, without taking into account economic and societal factors that have a far greater effect on that behaviour, is asinine and dangerous (far more then Iceman's blatantly bigoted idea of Islam). Anyone who knows anything about the abuse scandals here know that the cultural primacy of the priest in Irish society and the weakness of the working class, the social deprivations that led to industrial schools and Magdalene laundries, had far more to do with it than an over riding belief in one Holy Apostolic Church.

But if someone suggested that all Irish catholics were dangerous because of our own scandals - which were far more prevalent  than the examples Iceman is giving - then the bleating you would hear from the faithful would deafen you.

Give people bread now and they don't have to worry about heaven later. Economic stability and a strong working and middle class, with safeguards against exploitation from the business class, usually leads to more liberal social attitudes, no matter the religion - and by definition 1.6 billion people can't be fanatics.

If we are not prepared to acknowledge the affect that Western exploitation has had on the cultures of the developing world, then we are further away from real equality than ever before.

And Iceman, you should really cop yourself on. This is hate speech you are throwing out there. There were genuine questions about the authorities response to Rotheram, which were addressed in the report following the scandal. But extrapolating an existential threat from Islam because of that situation means you are either being taken advantage of your "pastor" (and as a grown man you should be ashamed at being led so docilely to intolerance) or you are an enthusiastic bigot.

These are not good choices, and are so far away from the teachings of Christ that you profess to adhere to, as to be laughable.

You want an existential threat to worry about? Try the American Republican Party, which, backed by oligarchs, evangelicals and white fascists is not only stoking fear and hatred against minorities, are also denying and actively accelerating the ecological destruction of our planet in pursuit of profit and a dingbatted belief in the Rapture. All this whilst sitting on the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world, and being led by a corpulent, lecherous, pumpkin faced, misogynistic certified f$£king thick.

That is dangerous. You should grow up and stop kissing your pastor's feet.

[screenexile]

I have to agree with heganboy. . . I'd go to Mass fairly regularly and have heard nothing of this nonsense of Islam being the biggest threat to our society so it's certainly not a Church edict this Priest is going rogue!

The worst I've heard from our Priest and threats to our children and society was a homily about WWE and The Godfather "With a trail of prostitutes behind him". The other was about Tupac and "Gangsta . . . rap" and how his lyrics would destroy our kids and how he was a buggerer corrupting young minds.

Both those things were nonsense and indeed Islam being the biggest threat to Western Society is also that.

What is your proof or your Priests for this ridiculous claim? Anecdotal at best!

As discussed in the US Politics thread more people in the USA die from right wing nut jobs losing the plot than any kind of terrorism yet I wonder what the disparity is between preparedness for Islamist Terrorism and Domestic threats. I can guarantee you it's pretty massive. and totally not justified!

Anecdotal stories about the threat of Islam and jihadi's and rape gangs does only one thing. . . spread fear!! Fear is a great way of getting bums on seats for a Church that is losing its relevancy around the world. Priests can be as cynical as the next person and if this dude is getting a crowd by spouting fear for half an hour a week he will continue to do so. As you've said he's quite intelligent!!!

[The Iceman]

Heganboy appreciate your copy and paste efforts. The Church is a living and breathing entity. The documents you cite are from 60+ years ago and the bible quotes you cite don't change anything I said? Pope Francis is doing his best to find common ground, to further relationships, to open doors to reconciliation.... He is speaking in love but we are called to speak the truth in love and he often leaves out the truth part. He's great at sugar coating but the hard messages have to be delivered sometimes and he doesn't do that.

Here's a 2 year old article on how and why the Church's non-doctrinal teaching on Islam is changing:
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2016/09/08/time-for-catholics-to-reconsider-islam-and-the-prophet-muhammad/

And for Mike Tyson (because it's my job of course to respond to your every request):
In lay man's terms:
God has a begotten Son — Allah has no son
God is complex (3 in ONE) — Allah is simplex
God never changes — Allah can not only change his mind, he can also change his nature.
God Loves Sinners — Allah hates sinners

How Does Muhammad match up to being a Prophet of God?
Moses — Father of Judaism
Jesus — Father of Christianity
Muhammad –- Father of Islam

Compare the three
As warriors
Moses did battle against Amalek because he was attacked.
Jesus never took up the sword or ordered his disciples to do so.
Muhammad led in 66 military campaigns and robbed Trade Caravans often.

In Sexual Purity
Moses was faithful to his wife Zipporah
Jesus never married nor did he have physical relationship with any woman
Muhammad had at least 19 wives and countless concubines — Sexuality is a big part of Islam. Even sex with children (one of his wives was 6 years old and he consummated the marriage with her at 9 years old)

But I'll go back to my original comments which I had hoped someone would address?
Do you think Islam oppresses women? Evidence would suggest that in majority muslim countries this is true.
Do you think that Islam accepts homosexuality? Evidence would suggest that in majority muslim countries it definitely does not -it outlaws it and in many countries it is punishable by death.

and the reasons you won't hear about this in Mass in Ireland or whatever airy fairy parish you are going to is because the Priest there is struggling to keep bums on seats and tells people what they want to hear. A mass in armagh today is 40 mins including a homily - it's a joke. And our Priest's mesage doesn't fill the pews. I go to a very poor parish and our priest has been asked to relocate to larger parishes in wealthier areas but refuses to leave in favor of a quieter life. He's a retired principal of the seminary in D.C. He's not some rogue with a mission - he's a learned man...