Poll

Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
54 (49.1%)
No
48 (43.6%)
Undecided
8 (7.3%)

Total Members Voted: 110

Author Topic: Would you be in favour of a second tier?  (Read 5352 times)

mrhardyannual

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #210 on: August 12, 2017, 10:01:54 PM »
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

Dub000737

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #211 on: August 12, 2017, 10:19:13 PM »
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?

Rossfan

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #212 on: August 12, 2017, 11:37:07 PM »
So why aren't all clubs playing in just a single County Championship?
Why can't Ballinameen players pit themselves against St.Brigids??
Can you imagine the poor Donegal or Leitrim hurlers pitting themselves against Galway, Cork or Waterford?
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LeoMc

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #213 on: August 12, 2017, 11:40:15 PM »
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.

From the Bunker

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #214 on: August 13, 2017, 12:17:18 AM »
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.

True! and the only way out is to win it!

Rossfan

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #215 on: August 13, 2017, 12:40:03 AM »
Senior Inter and Junior All Irelands.
Provincials open to all.
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Lone Shark

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #216 on: August 13, 2017, 01:31:31 AM »
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   

Dub000737

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #217 on: August 13, 2017, 10:36:34 AM »
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final

RedHand88

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #218 on: August 13, 2017, 11:23:09 AM »
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final

Don't get the point of the second one. It just makes it easier for division 1 teams to get to a semi final. That's not what's needed.

Rossfan

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #219 on: August 13, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »
Division 1 teams usually make up the Semi Finalists anyway.
Tipp were the exception last year but they did beat 2 "big" teams to get there - Cork and the Connacht Champions.
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Hardy

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #220 on: August 13, 2017, 01:54:00 PM »
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   

In addition, it's the players who don't want to be second tier. Nobody is surprised that (especially blow-in) managers want to compete in a competition in which they have a chance of success and consequently a better prospect of keeping their jobs appointments and expenses.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

seafoid

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #221 on: August 13, 2017, 02:04:52 PM »
Do the fans want a continuation of the status quo?
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

Dub000737

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #222 on: August 13, 2017, 02:50:20 PM »
The players want to compete at club level and they have tiered leagues and Championships. They can do the same at county level and get used to it

mrhardyannual

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #223 on: August 13, 2017, 05:08:05 PM »
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
No. The reason that hurling counties are tiered is that so few counties entered the All Ireland Senior Championship before the tiering was introduced. Antrim in Ulster and Galway in Connacht were the only representatives of their provinces. In Leinster, Louth & Longford never took part and Westmeath and Carlow were occasionally there. That gave you 16 counties that were delighted to get an alternative  competition.
In football , only Kilkenny have been absentees. My point was that change will only come if the counties affected at the bottom level vote for it and at the moment it doesn't appear that they will.

Dub000737

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #224 on: August 13, 2017, 11:13:06 PM »
Counties in the bottom levels will not vote for tiers because it would add to the pressure to win.