gaaboard.com

GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

Title: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
I honestly think it's time to give this another thought.  The reality is that the All-Ireland will probably be won by one of four teams.  For the rest of us it's just a matter of how far we can go.  It's not if but when we will be beaten.  I have to admit I was no big fan of the Tommy Murphy cup but I'm beginning to think that once division 3 and 4 teams are beaten, (before a certain date) they should play in a b championship with the winners and runners up rejoining the championship at the quarter final stages (or the runner up joining one stage earlier).  It's time for the combine harvesters to be racing against tractors or JCB's.
I know a lot of the managers are not a big fan of this but I think in time they might warm to it.  The chance to be competitive and win something could eventually swing the pendelum.
I put up a poll to see what the appetite is.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on June 26, 2017, 12:58:10 PM
I look at the complete mess that the Gaa has made of the tiered hurling championship and that makes me have to say no.
Look at the Christy Ring final this year.  The hurling secondary tier competition.
Was not covered live on any of the national TV stations.
Vey little coverage in the media.
And all finished up by the end of June.
A secondary football competition would be given lip service for a year or two and then would slowly be let fade away into insignificance.  That's what has happened time and time again with "b" championships. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 01:02:06 PM
RTE interviewed 10 'lower tier' managers about it, and only the Longford manager seemed strongly in favour of a B championship. The rest either didn't want it at all, or wanted it as a 'losers competition' for teams beaten early in the championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Tubberman on June 26, 2017, 01:07:35 PM
If the secondary competition winner was awarded a 3rd or 4th round qualifier spot, I think there may be more of an appetite for it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:05:12 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 26, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
More to a cup competition than who can win it. The underdog stories like Down winning against the odds v Monaghan last Saturday or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on June 26, 2017, 02:11:48 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Fair point but it does not hide the gap (at the moment) between the top 12 and the rest.
Would the winners and runners up of  "B" having a play in game to the Q/finals not be a better option. At least the teams in question would have three or four wins under their belt at that stage, rather than the one and done the majority of them face right now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:13:33 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 26, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
I think a better way of looking a t it would be to have staged entry into the one competition depending on league standings.

so div 3& 4 enter at round 1, the winners play the div 2 teams in round 2, the winners of that play the div 1 teams in round 3 .

This would be similar to the way the FA cup is structured with the Premier league teams coming in at the 3rd round stage.

This would give every county in Ireland the opportunity to play in the Sam Maguire competition, and return us to the proper knockout format we used to have.

The main stumbling block will be the resistance to separate the all Ireland from the provincial competitions.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rosnarun on June 26, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.

I was at the offaly V Cavan game last night and came away feeling bad for offaly . its very hard to build a  system with only a few games a years they have several excellent players but who knows how many of them will be there next summer and maybe even a new manager so they have no time to build they could definitely benefit from a secondary competition esp with a round robin element  . A not so super 8 if you like.
one incentive id like to see is a way back into the A system to keep every one interested.

Im sure TG4 would love to cover it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 26, 2017, 02:31:47 PM
There is little appetite for a B or C competition despite all of the logic in favour of it.  Counties want to have a go every year.

A better approach would be to seed the competition according to league position and give the lower division teams a chance to compete with each other and in their provinces before the higher divisions joins the competition.  The bottom 16 could be reduced to 4 teams. Teams would still get 2 meaningful knockout games as present.

This gives a knockout competition to lower division teams with the chance of those surviving the next rounds a chance to giant kill.  It would remove the qualifiers and have the provincial competitions as secondary to the AI competition with only winers making it through to a final 8 knockout competition.

Unfortunately, this will never fly with those wanting to milk the spectators with the super 8 games which show who the GAA management are really interested in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:37:01 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.

Leinster is actually decent to watch when the Dubs aren't playing :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 03:08:17 PM
I agree completely with AZ's penultimate post. The topic is primarily media-driven.

Having said that, I think the best chance of a change being made is to provide a route from any second or third division championship back into the race for the All-Ireland.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 26, 2017, 03:13:40 PM
I realise that many of the managers didn't actually state they wanted a B championship but the sentiment amongst many of them that there wasn't enough games.

Entry to round 4 qualifier or even a quarter final place for winners of such a competition should satisfy the needs of all counties taking part.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
That's what I said AZ. People are saying we need a 2 or 3 tier championship but it's usually just games involving Kerry and Dublin in their provinces that are completely one sided. Mayo rarely hammer anyone in Connacht though Tyrone have wiped the floor with Derry and Donegal so far in Ulster.

Remove those teams from the provincials and all of a sudden it's quite interesting again.
Kildare, W-Meath or Meath would be rejuvenated if they won Leinster and went into the 1/4 finals with that win under their belt. Kildare in 2010 was the last time a Leinster team got to the semis besides the Dubs.

In the last 6 years Dublin and Mayo have been in the semis every year with Kerry missing out one year in 2012.
Tyrone and Donegal have usually been the 4th team though Tipperary took that prize last year.

2016 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tipp
2015 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2014 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2013 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2012 Cork,  Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2011 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on June 26, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

if the panel of 25-30, that makes up each intercounty squad, existed in isolation to solely play for the county, then yes some sort of second or third tier competition, after an initial provincial defeat, may serve a purpose to fill the remainder of their summer. But these panellists are not the property of the intercounty scene, they also have their clubs to serve. Many clubs throughout the land and their inter county players, would probably place more masse in concentrating on winning the local club championship than seeing these players on county duty at 2nd or 3rd tier level deep into july or august, playing in games attracting poor attendances and given lip service by the media, with possibly 1 or 2 minutes of highlights(if any on RTE).

The only way for the weak to build is through a decent league campaign and then look forward to championship scalp, the dream of the scalp fosters the reason for  the hard work during the winter months.....take away the dream and the application is likely to be diluted.

for example, Antrim are rated the poorest outfit in Ulster. Once every ten years or so, they do pop up and beat a perceived superior rival in the Ulster championship. I am sure the vast majority associated with Antrim would prefer the crack at a shock in ulster each year in preference to a first round 3rd tier game against say Waterford in front of 200 people in Dungarvan.


Clubs are entitled to their players from July onwards, and the GAA was set up in an original way whereby most counties were finished the intercounty scene by the end of July bar the all Ireland semi finalists.  Creating 2nd and 3rd tier levels will make a dogs ear of the club championship scene in many counties.

straight knockout was and remains the best option for intercounty GAA....it is not returning because Croke Park now needs to maximise gate receipts to pay for a raft of full time officials(including secretaries in counties)..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness.

in truth, introducing 2nd and 3rd tier competitions will sound a death knell to the competitiveness of many counties, as player interest and supporter interest in the system will gradually erode.

we have had the lower tier hurling competitions for a number of years, and not one of the minnows have made any shape of getting closer to the elite 8/9....in fact in truth, from an original competitive 12 or so, the likes of Offaly, Antrim and Laois are falling further away each season from the top 8/9, and nothing outside the top 9 will be competitive in that top bracket for the foreseeable future.

creating tiers 2 and 3 for football is the GAAs apartheid.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PAULD123 on June 26, 2017, 04:07:51 PM
..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness......

Enthusiasts on these forums try to solve sporting issues. The Sporting administrators are trying to solve financial issues.

Sad but all too true
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on June 26, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath

Re-entering the championship in the present year is complete nonsense.

The idea that weak counties necessarily have great club championships because their county teams are out early is also a bit suspect, is the Carlow club championship better than that of Dublin or Kerry?

And as for straight knockout, the extra games  not only serve to raise money but serve to raise the profile of the GAA which brings in many of the people who are in these clubs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Taylor on June 26, 2017, 04:41:22 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.

If it was done properly there is no reason why it wouldnt succeed on a National level.

Main issue would been apathy towards anything other than the big one. Marketing would be key here in making it attractive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 26, 2017, 04:50:17 PM
the main issue here is the Dubs.
and the imbalance of them getting most games in Croke Park.

there isn't as big a gap between all the other counties playing in provinical venues
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 04:54:28 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.


Exactly and that's my favourite with promition/relegation as in Club championships across the Country.
I would still retain the Provincials with all in and then 3 AI Championships.
Make the TV deal so that for every Senior game the TV company would have to do an Inter and Junior game too.

A 2 tier thingy will do nothing for the 6 or 8 weakest teams and if it's not part of a promotion relegation structure then the B is only a tournament for a shiny cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:59:42 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
So Dublin get Wicklow and beat them by 30 points in each leg. I'd say Wicklow would be happier with one hammering and a chance at a more favourable draw in the back door.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
No matter who Dublin get unless another top 3 team, they will most likely win by 20+ points.
Dublin away to Donegal, Monaghan or Tyrone would be an exciting game.
I don't agree two leg though. Straight knockout 1 game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:16:33 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:17:46 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
What does two legs achieve though?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blue Island on June 26, 2017, 05:28:17 PM
This old argument comes up every year and I think it is media driven. This is a matter solely for those Counties who are struggling and for no one else. I would imagine they would have no truck with some form of B or C tier competition. There would be zero interest and one only has to look at the second tier hurling competitions to see how that would end up.

Even if Croke Park did throw a load of money and resources at it (unlikely), they can't force RTE, the print media to follow suit and give the games the attention they might deserve.

The real issue is the amateur ethos of our games and the primary rule that you play for the County you were born in. If we had a professional game where you could transfer between Counties, it might be reasonable to have a two, or three tier system, where better/more ambitious players could transfer.  Not that I am advocating that.

It is not justified to say to players in Leitrim or Antrim, you are now playing in a secondary competition by dint of your birth and you will suck it up.

I would draw a comparison with nations qualifying for the Euros and the World cup. Yes, the tournament itself is for qualifiers only, akin to the All Ireland quarter finals, but every nation starts with the same chance.  France will play San Marino etc, because there is an acceptance that every nation is sovereign and treated with equal status and an acknowledgement that players can only play for the Country they were born it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:12:32 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 26, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
If you favour a second tier, you'd have to have Down in it. Longford beat them in the qualifiers this weekend last year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 06:30:58 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
They're not dead rubbers. Dead rubbers, as I understand them, are games that don't matter for whatever reason. If the first leg is a 20 point victory then I think you could call the second leg a dead rubber. Multiply that by about four or five ties (likely).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 06:32:07 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.

Well, Carlow could draw Leitrim then Antrim and get to a QF. Mayo could face Dublin, winners meeting Kerry. So you could have Carlow in a QF, with Dublin and Kerry gone.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:35:59 PM
I could win the lotto.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Stall the Bailer on June 26, 2017, 11:32:15 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 11:38:19 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Previous new winners Derry 93, Donegal 92, Offaly 71,Down 61. Meath 49.
Not much sign of any new County making a breakthrough in the next 5 or 6 years at least.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:32:38 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:02:14 AM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:04:59 AM
A second tier would give the GAA an excuse to hide away the useless teams just like they hide them away during the league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 27, 2017, 05:58:41 AM
After I investigated the Kerry Senior Championship Ive become a great fan, I genuinally think its the reason that they are so sucessful as players from small clubs have a chance to play on an equal footing with the big clubs and it also means the standard of the championship is higher

Anyway could we apply this model to the SFC??

I was thinkin  have the 2nd Tier championship minus the top 8 or 10 and replace the lower leagues with that championship. Obiviously it would still be some sorta league format as losing R1 teams end up with 1 game
Then have the provincials as usual.
Then pool the 2nd Tier teams into regional sides to give them a crack at the SFC agin the top teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on June 27, 2017, 06:46:24 AM
I've a real bee in my bonnet when it comes to people saying things like how "it would need to be marketed properly..."

All across Ireland and the world there are sports that don't get bums on seats, and they all perceive that a lack of marketing is the issue. League of Ireland? Check. Ladies football? Check. Christy Ring? Check.

It's all very well to say that two days ago, there was a gap there, and that RTE could have showed a lower tier game. But what about the previous week? Would the armchair pundits, up to and including a lot of people on here, been happy that either Donegal vs Tyrone or Cork vs Waterford went untelevised so that a game like the Christy Ring final could be shown instead?

Christ the same Joe Brolly thinks it's a disgrace that there are GAA games on Sky, even though there's 40-odd games on terrestrial TV over the summer now. But think about it. Is it a real surprise that TV pundits, who depend on TV punditry for gigs, want a system where there are more big games between the big counties, so more games that "need" to be televised, and thus more punditry gigs on the go?


Moreover, you don't have to go far in Kerry or Dublin to find an ex-player who thinks a B championship is the answer. However I'll start to believe that it's the way to go when a player who would be playing in it comes out and says that he'd have an extra spring in his step if they went that road. If a lad I know to be a solid, committed player who loves his county - I'll give the example of Brian Darby for Offaly, who some of ye will know from TG4's seo spˇirt - if he comes out and says that he'd prefer to represent Offaly in a competition like that, I'll listen. If some ould lads from Kerry tell him that's where he should be locked away into, that's not going to twist my arm. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 27, 2017, 08:09:41 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Better still...
Dublin NE - Ulster
Dublin NW - Connacht
Dublin SW - Munster
Dublin SE - Leinster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 08:18:21 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs.
Roscommon 2-23 Leitrim 1-9.

How many Qualifier games have Leitrim won?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 27, 2017, 11:14:50 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.

Part of the issue is that the Dubs continue to have home advantage.  they weren't just as hot when taken out of Dublin to play Carlow.  Surely Westmeath deserved an opportunity to play Dublin in the semi final in a major ground in Leinster but not Croke Park that should be reserved for provincial finals and AI quarter finals onwards?

In a smaller stadium with the home crowd closer to the play, it would at least create some levelling for other Leinster teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be.  Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:20:01 PM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?

Yeah that'd be the same Dublin who are back to back ai champions having won 4 of the last 6 all Irelands and who've won 12 of the last 13 leinsters, currently on 7 in a row. Take the blinkers off lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 12:27:53 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 27, 2017, 12:35:06 PM
I'd like to know what the counties who tend to occupy division 4 county boards think.  Do the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Antrim, Waterford & Wicklow want the extra games?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 27, 2017, 12:59:49 PM
I think what we all learned from RTE's interview with 10 managers shown on Sunday night was that non of them want to be viewed as second rate teams and want to be in with a chance of playing against the big boys at some stage.

However, I think most of us (even the Dubs) enjoy the season when we get a decent run of games where we win a few and have excitement, hope, joy, fear, incident and out for a few jars and a meal to discuss the day. Many of us know we're not gonna win Sam but we can still enjoy the summer and that happens mainly when we play teams around the same level as us.
Whilst it's nice to win your province, I love the idea of going to an away venue for a Sat night game and staying the night and meeting up with old friends etc.

The loyalty to the provincials is a huge stumbling block for most people as they feel they are breaking tradition if they walk away from that set up.

The most simpliest solutuon would seem to be that the top 2 divisions play off against each other and the bottom 2 divisions do the same. It would mean teams from lower divisions still have a chance to get to the 1/4 finals (super 8s) whilst playing competive games with teams at similar levels. As we saw at the weekend Carlow v London was a good game as were a few others qualifiers.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 01:19:33 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 01:23:03 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:34:04 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?

Yes, if we meet in the Super 8 I'd expect Dublin to be asked to play us in Castlebar. Fat chance of that happening! It would be horsed up to Croker to keep the Corporate Boxes full and the Big wigs happy. Same would happen with your idea of playing in Connacht. The final would end up in Croker!  Do you get the general idea of how it works now!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 27, 2017, 01:35:01 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.

Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4

Don't draw a totally arbitrary line to begin with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 27, 2017, 01:54:30 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: vallankumous on June 27, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 02:49:42 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 03:34:55 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.

Absolutely brilliant idea. The top tier competition would end up being called the All Ireland AIG Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 02:14:33 PM
From 2010 to this year (including the games played this year) Division 4 teams have played 155 games in the championship and only beaten non-Division 4 opposition 15 times.

The breakdown of those 15 wins

Division 3 - 10 wins

Division 2 - 4 wins

Division 1 - 1 win
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 02:41:58 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 28, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.

But more people in this poll voted no to separate championships (or did I misunderstand the question?).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 28, 2017, 03:01:17 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.
Above 17 won 9 Provincial SFCs out of 100 played in the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 05:37:56 PM
Twas 10 actually, not 9.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 06:16:01 PM
If you take out the counties that are in div 1 or 2 (Roscommon, Cavan and Monaghan ) how many provincials are you left with???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 07:36:50 PM
Leitrim 1
Sligo 1
Laois 1
Westmeath 1
Clare 1
Offaly 1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 28, 2017, 08:22:51 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
The decline of pubs and the growth of drinking at home are also Sean Boylan's fault
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 28, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 28, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.

Remarkable that we now have such influence in a competition we don't participate in
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 09:09:00 PM
The numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 10:34:07 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

I don't think GAA ticket prices have gone up that much, compared to other sports (rugby, LOI) or other entertainment - cinema and concerts.
This is only my own feeling though.
Anyone have any data?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 29, 2017, 10:11:52 AM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 29, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Yeah that's a straight comparison between 2001 and 2016 but the thing is the attendances have been steadily trending downward year-on-year, all while the population has been booming.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 29, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Which means it is not favoured by just over half who expressed a preference.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 29, 2017, 02:59:26 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster

When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: SCFC on June 29, 2017, 08:45:39 PM
I think it has to be done before long.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Scarlet on June 29, 2017, 10:27:49 PM
There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level.

I am playing in my head the scenes at the county board meetings with that being discussed up and down the country. Anyone here who has ever been to one close their eyes and you can imagine the people going red in the face talking about this.
As I said no county will agree to it no matter what the facts will say.
I for one voted undecided as I honestly don't know until there is more definite parameters. I think dumping all Div 3 and 4 teams down is the cleanest method and would mean the league would be given even more attention but is a nuclear option vefore we even really go for more restructuring within the current system.

If things stay as they are then the suits in Croke Park will be blamed but the grassroots are the ones who will shout loudest against an A and B option.
As I say there is no real logic to it. You have lads from Junior clubs who are playing county and they look around their dressing room back home and accept that is their level. In their hearts they must look around the county dressing room and realise that coming up against certain teams they just are not able to compete.
But for the club it is OK and if they won a county junior title it would be a source of pride. But trying to bring that into intercounty seems to be just a case of not swallowing pride.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 29, 2017, 11:21:33 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 29, 2017, 11:59:34 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....

Dust off the trophy cabinet lads, Tommy Murphy Mark II is on the way!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on June 30, 2017, 12:07:10 AM
Everybody's done very well, really.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 12:18:39 AM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 01:00:22 AM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?

The one with enough diesel.

Too many here trying to reducing this to a cute little one line methapor. It will never fit.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:23:04 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 09:31:54 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
But is that dissimilar to other sports?
Premier Leauge - 25 odd years and six winners. Two of whom have won it once each.
Scottish Premier League - Two winners in about 30 years
Spanish League - Three winners - Four winners in 17 years, with Atletico winning it once and Valenica twice, the last of which is 13 years ago.

I know I've only quoted soccer, as it's all I otherwise follow, but I think you know that there's more to entering than winning.

Horses with no chance of winning the Grand National enter every year. At every Olympics you see athletes and swimmers finishing double digit seconds behind the winners of the heats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 09:46:58 AM
We need a competition that everybody wins in turn. Or maybe everybody could get a wee cup and some medals every year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:48:13 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:37:58 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
The supporters of these teams keep attending the games though and I don't think the type of Olympians I mentioned climb much of a ladder.

My point is that there is more to sport that winning and I think that, regardless of your view on this topic, that it's very clear that this is the case in the inter-county scene.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 10:54:19 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:57:02 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
But you seem to be ignoring the point I'm making.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:20:59 AM
A 32 team professional sport = NFL.

Last 20 years.

Packers
Broncos
Rams
Ravens
Patriots
Buccaneers
Steelers
Colts
Giants
Saints
Seahawks

And beaten finalists
Falcons
Titans
Raiders
Panthers
Eagles
Bears
Cardinals
49ers

So out of 32 teams, in the last 20 years there have been 19 different teams in the Superbowl. Obviously some powerhouses like the Patriots appear more than once, but nonetheless that's quite a competitive spread.

Of course the NFL is professional, and thus has movement of players which we do not want. However they have twigged that they need to enforce financial constraints (salary cap) and player welfare considerations thrashed out in the CBA to minimise length of season, off season training etc.

They do a lot wrong in the NFL, but they realise that allowing the big teams free rein in terms of financial power leads to lopsided competition structures, so they've tried to reduce that.

Interestingly, you could say they have a two phased Championship. Everyone plays 16 games, and then the top 6 in both provinces, I mean conferences, play a straight knockout playoffs for the Superbowl.

We can't lift and shift the NFL structure onto Gaelic football, but we can consider their approach to shared revenue and salary caps in a bid to level the playing field. This from the most capitalistic sport in the most capitalistic country in the world.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 11:26:08 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.

Is it the case that lesser numbers are going to matches now because supporters think they have no chance of winning?
I wouldn't agree with that.
Ourselves and Leitrim had no chance of winning an all ireland in 2009/10/11 either so the fall off in attendance is not due to us and Leitrim all of a sudden becoming uncompetitive (in fact, you could argue that we are more competitive now because we are in div 1/2 of the league vs Divs 3/4 in those years).

I'm not convinced that putting us and Leitrim in an inter/junior comp will automatically result in crowds increasing.

Is it possible to get league attendance figures from the last few years? An interesting test would be to check attendances at games between the same teams in different divisions of the league. For example, Ros V Cavan in Div1, Div2 and Div3. or Ros V Mon in Div1 against Div 3 a few years ago. I know there are other factors at play (e.g. different venues etc.) but I would guess that attendances were higher when teams meet in Div 1 rather than the lower division even though the teams would have better chances of winning the lower division. I could be proved wrong, but it'd be interesting to see the stats.
Other teams off the top of my head that would have meet in different divisions, RosVDown, TyroneVCavan, CorkVDown, WestmeathVKildare
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 30, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
No, that the main stakeholders, i.e. players, management, spectators, don't necessarily see the ability to win Sam as the main factor for remaining in the race to win it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:37:23 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA

NCAA is not. It's the most lopsided of all even though it is amateur. Granted some TV rights and the like are shared between conferences, but there's nothing to stop big colleges paying massive coaching salaries, or in the biggest schools recruiting the best players because they have the best facilities or the big name.

MLB doesn't have a salary cap I believe, and therefore you have massive wage bills and free agent signings. When the Yankees are involved, they usually get who they want, or at least they did up until about 5 years ago. They have introduced a luxury tax alright, which penalises those high salaries, but it's not stopping them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 12:28:21 PM
Should more counties go down the "Jack Charlton route"?

Maybe all minor and U21 teams from Dublin, Cork, Kerry, (etc?) ... should be made list where their parents are from, e.g:

Sean Og O hAilpin - mother from Fiji, father from Fermanagh

So if he hadn't made the breakthrough into the Cork senior team, Fermanagh (or Fiji!) could have tried to persuade him to play with them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Estimator on June 30, 2017, 12:31:14 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

There was only 5 different winners in those years (sharing 22 titles)
Kerry 10 titles
Dublin 4 titles
Offaly 3 titles
Cork 3 titles
Meath 2 titles

And a number of those finals were non-events as it was so one-sided.

I'm sure teams still want the opportunity to play for the top prize, it doesn't matter it they are rank outsiders, they still want the chance to take on a big team, a chance of Provincial/ All Ireland glory etc.

A local club example would be Glenullin, they were relegated from the top division in 2015, which meant that they would play in the Intermediate C'ship in 2016 (League and C'ship is linked in Derry).  Instead they applied to play in the Senior C'ship, which was granted to them.  This meant a rejig of the draw and a Premlim fixture had to be played. Glenullin were beaten by 6pts by Loup in the first round.

Glenullin, won the Intermediate league at a canter.  They probably would have won the Intermediate C'ship easily, and could possibly have won Ulster and All-Ireland titles.  But they wanted the opportunity to play in the Senior Championship.  They would probably make the same decision again if it happened.

The promises of similar coverage, and big days in Croke Park for Intermediate and Junior teams playing in the Paidi Cup, or whatever they would be called, are ridiculous. Look at the coverage the finals of the Ring, Rackard, Meagher had this year.  The finals were held on a random Saturday in June. It was only being streamed on the TG4 website.  Its not something that you accidentally find when you are scrolling through the channels.  You had to know where to go to find the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier hurling finals.  Exactly the same thing would happen in the football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 02:11:20 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
[/b]
No idea and no idea why you're asking me in response to my point.

It might be that if a tiered championship was introduced that it would be the best thing that the GAA ever did. However, as it stands, there will be huge resistance to it for many reasons. Not agreeing with the logic doesn't mean they don't exist regardless of what you try to compare it to.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.

Aka Tommy Murph lite.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 03:25:28 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2017, 03:25:46 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
87 also had a draw between Cork and Galway
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 01, 2017, 05:11:08 AM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 01, 2017, 09:12:56 AM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Hardly. Nobody said the Ulster boys did anything. The point, right or wrong, was that the weaker hurling counties had gotten weaker.

Rossfan is not at his usual best on this thread, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 01, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

There was fűck all chance of Leitrim giving us a game and us Connacht champions in 2011.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2017, 10:26:32 AM
I would support  a second tier featuring Dublin and Kerry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:27:36 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:34:04 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:52:30 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.
If it was a proper competition with decent rewards then yes absolutely. Hurlers don't have a problem playing in the Nicky rackard and Christy ring competitions. Teams of similar standards playing against each other with promotion and relegation based on performance. A lot of sports have been using this simple basis for their competitions for centuries!!!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on July 01, 2017, 08:03:23 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.

More to cup competitions than just winning them. Upsets like Down last week or competitive performance from the underdogs like Derry,Longford  today draws plenty of interest. Down,Kildare,Roscommon,Cork all underdogs in the upcoming provinal finals would all take a provincial title over some 2nd tier Championship title.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on July 01, 2017, 08:09:24 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 01, 2017, 08:20:02 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)

We have that Already it's called Hurling!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: ONeill on July 01, 2017, 08:27:11 PM
The weird thing is that a lot of the two-tiered county vocalists are supposedly avid club men.

If that's the case, who gives a fook how many tiers there are at county level. The sooner your club men are out the better.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on July 03, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.

It wasn't always that way.
The finals used to be played before the AI semi-finals in August then we'd "hurling" men in Nicky Brennan and Christy Cooney coming in and changing it so that the minors were back in before those games.

Can't argue with your last point though although Westmeath, Carlow and Laois would be a bit yoyo from CR to AI series.

Ulster hurling is on its uppers and is poorly served by the Ulster Football Council.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 13, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 03:27:59 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.

You're actively turning people against the idea of a second tier with stuff like that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:44:25 PM
How exactly?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 03:50:10 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
He's not wrong as I assume nobody suggested to him anything about being able to re-enter the AI series.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 13, 2017, 04:13:30 PM
First of all we would need to know how many teams are in the second tier? 16, 12, 8? Secondly how would we rank them? Would it be based solely on league rankings every year? Would it create more emphasis on the league? Or should I say would year 1 be based on league rankings and the rest as up down relegation/promotion in the new championship format itself?

I have another question, why just because you won the second tier championship should you automatically be re-entered into the top tier 'last whatever number' as FtB says? Should that not be for the top tier counties only? People cite the junior, intermediate and senior model, but I have never known an intermediate winner to automatically be guaranteed a senior quarter final place?

I'm not trying to be awkward, just stating some questions that I'm sure individual county boards might ask if they were asked to vote on it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 13, 2017, 04:16:53 PM
With all this talk of re-entry, can someone give an example of a county where the Intermediate champions are then allowed in the Senior championship semi finals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 04:37:48 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 04:38:02 PM
I totally favour the 3 tier Senior Inter Junior model as per Club Championships.
However I doubt I'll live to see it so we're talking what might pass Congress and what would the weak/ Hurling Counties go for.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 13, 2017, 05:06:05 PM
I think first the calender should be sorted out for clubs and county A compact season for both) , all counties get at least say four championship games at a minimum along with 7 league games and some sort of central pot for coaching and development is organised with the weakest teams being funded from this the most per head of population (ala draft position in American Football) , trial this for a decade , then if intercounty is as divided as it is now then go for a tiered championship!!

I just think not much really has been tried to even the playing field at all apart from the qualifiers but if weaker counties got a genuine chance to develop I think they could have success but we are always going to have bad counties and one sided games no matter what system is in place!! More games less training and a proper calender will give counties with a good plan a chance for succes in my opinion!!

( see I am asking for feck all change really ;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 05:34:33 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 06:35:28 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??

You don't need to be a top four team to be a vibrant part of the championship..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:40:18 PM
What's a "vibrant part of the Championship"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:48:14 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
What about  Hurling League Champions, Football League Semi finalists ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:49:00 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
They would have to stop sending top players to Meath as well
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LCohen on July 13, 2017, 07:12:31 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.

There are 3 options for a tiered championship.

Straight forward tiered system where everyone starts and ends the champions in tier 1 or 2. Promotion for the winners and some sort fight in the colosseum to identify who replaces them.

A champions league style group that determines your position in the tiered knock out competitions. Tiered competitions running in parallel.

Lower tier played out first with entry into the upper tier for the winner.

Option 3 is a scheduling nightmare.

No doubt serious drug testing with serious consequences for cheating is a must.

A serious look at funding is also required
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 03:05:26 AM
A lot of counties can go a long time without shooting the lights out  and doing a good run in the qualifiers  a la Carlow this year.  Football has a structural problem in that Sam tends to be shared amongst a small group of counties unless something special  comes out of Ulster.

While there have been decent provincial and qualifier runs over recent years by teams such as Tipp, Clare, Sligo, London, Antrim, Longford, Fermanagh and Meath, it has usually been against enormous odds and hard to replicate. And for every D3/D4 team that does it there are at least 10 that are out of contention by mid June. Would a 2 Tier system lift the overall standard and make an all Ireland by an untouchable county more likely? Maybe it would, if combined with financial reform. Would the counties support such a proposal that might shake up the system? No. Counties and players love their chains. They are still loyal to that  one in 40 year thing. To win just once 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on July 14, 2017, 11:50:42 AM
Have you been drinking?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 12:00:21 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
I like the inept category
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 01:22:23 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?

;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 01:38:32 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more SeÓnie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 14, 2017, 02:11:41 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more SeÓnie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????


I think Ross the Gaa should instigate an independent review of these counties and major urban areas (especially since they have a sucessful urban area in Dublin to go off) and put it to these counties to come up with a viable plan to improve. Money should only be committed on the basis of a workable long term plan i.e not just building a big concrete stand or hiring a big name manager!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 02:44:15 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more SeÓnie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
They all have soccer cultures

I think Wicklow should be colonised by motivated club players from the west coast . The local Irish in places like Baltinglass could function as backup
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 02:46:47 PM
Agreed but would they need a Croke Park full time official to wore with them in devising the right plan and overseeong/driving it.
The point I was making in my light hearted categories piece (lost on some I'd think) is that the AI SFC is the preserve of the few, that population, hurling, 6 Cos demographics and ineptiness rules out up to 20 Counties from future competing seriously for Sam.
So do we 20 odd keep hoping we might draw a few weak teams like Carlow did, get the odd oul Provincial or get to the Quarters via the Qualifier now and then or pray that a load of Kerry men will marry in and breed better players?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 04:02:38 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want.
To date, I think they have listened. They've acknowledge that there is an appetite to retain the provincials and that there's not an appetite to bring in a tiered-championship among inter-county players.

Supporters may be split on this but the campaign is mostly coming from elements of the media. The GAA get a lost of abuse for the decisions they make but we can only hope that they don't let such campaigns guide them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:18:45 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

And you who won't be that bothered if Roscommon are placed into Intermediate/B section competition!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?


 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 04:47:32 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

I'm still laughing at the idea best Connacht final victory in at least 37 years makes the year a 5/10. I'll get back to you when I stop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 14, 2017, 05:43:22 PM
i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

With all the negativity, more people have voted for a two tier competition than have voted against it.  Granted a small sample but the suggestion is obviously favored by quite a few followers on this board.  I would only be in favor if the prize was re-entry to the championship at the latter stages
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 11:04:19 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Absolutely. But as it stands, it seems that the players agree.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 12:22:26 AM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,ö Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!

Sure what would he know about it.

So he goes into a last 12 or last 8. So lets say 16 in top tier, 16 in bottom. How do we go about this craic where the winner of bottom tier all of a sudden landing into the last 12 of the top tier. This means the bottom tier will have to be wrapped up before the top tier even attempts to take of properly.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 01:24:12 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 05:47:54 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
I don't know if you understand how money works
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 09:59:44 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

Ok you have me totally lost. Why would English and French teams be in a competition for teams from Ireland, Scotland Wales and Italy. Does this make the English Premiership or French Super 12 also B competitions. Where does it stop. Are you suggesting in Soccer the  Premiership or La Liga are B competitions because they don't have all the top sides from Europe.

If you're looking at it like that then we already have B championships. The Connacht or Ulster Championship doesn't involve Kerry or Dublin.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 11:09:52 AM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 15, 2017, 01:25:44 PM
Play the provincials and Sam in the winter, league in the summer.  Everyone enters Sam; provincials with local rivalries remain.  Everyone knows how long their summer season is, and more games between teams of similar levels in summer.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 15, 2017, 02:42:00 PM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Four? What teams start out in the first week of February?

And think of the benefits to the club scene in those counties having the whole summer to play games. Please some of the people and all that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 03:00:51 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 03:32:39 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?

Do you think that's going to stop college lads going on J1s? Daft buck.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2017, 04:41:10 PM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on July 16, 2017, 09:30:19 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 16, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.

No they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 12:22:05 PM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Fair funding and support for high standard coaching would be required for that. The qualifiers are pretty useless in terms of developing weaker counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 16, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
The super 8 will create a second tier so there is no need to worry about it. It's already here in another guise. There is now a first tier and the rest can just go whistle. Sky are happy, Dublin football will be happy, the coffers in headquarters in Croker will be happy.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 18, 2017, 10:51:36 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 18, 2017, 11:09:34 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.

Carlow got that far by beating teams of their own standard. If teams get 4/5 games every summer it would lead to increased interest and improvements in standards. The "B" championship was poorly organised and treated as a joke by croke park. This insistence on calling it a potential "B" championship doesn't help. If a new trophy was commissioned and called Kevin Heffernan cup for example, finals played in croke park together with All Ireland semi final and earlier rounds televised and marketed I think it would be a success
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 12:52:20 AM
Sadly that just won't happen. It'll end up like the hurling Christy Ring...1st year out it was live on before an AI semi final...then it fell away and ended up 1 year played on a saturday night in tullamore, with 3 mins highlights on Sunday game.
Different levels are needed in hurling, as the gaps in standard all along the way are massive. So that is necessary but needs to be worked on.

In Football it's not the same at all, there's the top 3/4 after that then maybe another few that might compete with them on a good day. But we have proven that even one of the worst teams in Div 4 can be level with Monaghan with 5 mins to go, and we held Dublin to 4 points with 20 mins to go, until we lost our best player to a red card. This year we have proved that any team with a decent structure and intelligent gameplan plus obviously a good committed group of players can compete with even the best.
They are already planning to give it a go again next year, hoping to avoid Dublin in the draw and looking at potential Leinster final.

A B championship in any name will always be a lesser tournament and players won't commit, fans won't go. Nobody will care, no matter what it's called. I'd rather have an occasion like we had on Saturday ahead of winning any made up stupid Kevin Heffernan Cup by beating Leitrim or someone in the final in front of about 100 people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 19, 2017, 02:02:32 AM
The Carlow manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 03:00:01 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.

In what way? I'd try to explain all that he has done to improve Carlow, but trying to get yourself to try and talk sense is probably hard to do when you can't even spell Carlow at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2017, 03:02:02 AM
I think Turlough O Brien is very impressive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on July 19, 2017, 10:02:00 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Carew is surely a bluff machine. At least O'Brien has given Carlow supporters something to remember, Carew gave us national humiliation and stagnation otherwise. And self-serving guff in the Champion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 10, 2017, 01:01:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....

Sure that's bollox. If you're taking the quarter finals as proof that we need tiered championships, Tier one would basically be the 4 semi finalists. I made this point months ago when this was raised. If we are trying to avoid heavy beatings, then the only solution is to separate the top 3 or 4 teams in Tier one, and you could have 5 or 6 tiers by the time you finished.

A tiered championship is mostly championed by media as far as I can see, and it's to avoid covering Carlow and the likes as they have the temerity to take a weekend in the summer away from the big guns facing each other. The problem, the real problem, is that the big guns are separating from the pack, in a very small and exclusive bunch, and no amount of restructuring fixtures will change that.

The Super 8s will go some way towards giving the media what they want, as you will theoretically have the top 8 playing each other in 12 matches. However, if the formline from last weekend held, and you had 2 or 3 blowouts in each group, and a dead rubber or two, you'll see support for that fading away as well.

Helping, and enabling, all counties to make the most of their resources, without quite deliberately making it harder for them to improve by disproportionate financial support to other counties, is the best way of improving standards, and competitiveness. Making monsters, and then wondering why they are eating everyone, is daft.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 10, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
Beautifully put AZ.

Was Fitzsimons thinking this after the Mayo v Roscommon draw but decided to hold on to get a full hand of hammerings.

If he's thinking it for a year and a half why didn't he say it when Tipp reached the SF last year.

More of the same from a different mouth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 10, 2017, 02:46:11 PM
Two 16 team championships. Straight knock out. No back door.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (senior) play off. Bottom 4 drop to the second tier the next year.
4 Semi-finalists in the second tier move up to Senior the following year.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (2nd tier) play off for a 3rd tier trophy if there is a need to ensure everyone gets a minimum of 2 games.

No seeding, no links to the league. Win 2 games and you play with the big boys the following year. Lose 2 and you go back down.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 10, 2017, 03:24:48 PM
No Provincials?
No point to second tier Semis and Final
How do you decide top 16?
What's in it for Leitrim?
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx.
Home and away or Neutral venues?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 05:56:26 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 11, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
No Provincials? Correct, they are part of the current imbalance.
No point to second tier Semis and Final. When you have played and won two why not go on try to win 2 more to get some silverware, even if it is only an intermediate championship?
How do you decide top 16? League for the first initial line in the san. Then purely previous championship performance.
What's in it for Leitrim? About as much as they get now. There is a chance that once every 60 years they might make an all-Ireland intermediate final.
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx. More time for club football.
Home and away or Neutral venues? Neutral after the first round.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 11, 2017, 03:46:49 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 12, 2017, 07:39:02 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.

Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 12, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 12, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 12, 2017, 11:37:07 PM
So why aren't all clubs playing in just a single County Championship?
Why can't Ballinameen players pit themselves against St.Brigids??
Can you imagine the poor Donegal or Leitrim hurlers pitting themselves against Galway, Cork or Waterford?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 12, 2017, 11:40:15 PM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on August 13, 2017, 12:17:18 AM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.

True! and the only way out is to win it!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 12:40:03 AM
Senior Inter and Junior All Irelands.
Provincials open to all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 13, 2017, 01:31:31 AM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 13, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final

Don't get the point of the second one. It just makes it easier for division 1 teams to get to a semi final. That's not what's needed.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 11:47:10 AM
Division 1 teams usually make up the Semi Finalists anyway.
Tipp were the exception last year but they did beat 2 "big" teams to get there - Cork and the Connacht Champions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on August 13, 2017, 01:54:00 PM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/ (http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/)

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/)

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   

In addition, it's the players who don't want to be second tier. Nobody is surprised that (especially blow-in) managers want to compete in a competition in which they have a chance of success and consequently a better prospect of keeping their jobs appointments and expenses.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on August 13, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
Do the fans want a continuation of the status quo?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 02:50:20 PM
The players want to compete at club level and they have tiered leagues and Championships. They can do the same at county level and get used to it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 13, 2017, 05:08:05 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
No. The reason that hurling counties are tiered is that so few counties entered the All Ireland Senior Championship before the tiering was introduced. Antrim in Ulster and Galway in Connacht were the only representatives of their provinces. In Leinster, Louth & Longford never took part and Westmeath and Carlow were occasionally there. That gave you 16 counties that were delighted to get an alternative  competition.
In football , only Kilkenny have been absentees. My point was that change will only come if the counties affected at the bottom level vote for it and at the moment it doesn't appear that they will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 11:13:06 PM
Counties in the bottom levels will not vote for tiers because it would add to the pressure to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 14, 2017, 11:01:20 AM
I'm curious to know if there were calls for a tiered championship in the 50s and 60s. We're Carlow, Wicklow, Fermanagh et al at a similar standard of all the teams?  Was every game close?  Or what about when Kerry hammered Clare in Miltown Malbay? Was everyone clamouring for a tiered championship then? Is it just to make weak counties to feel good about themselves that this has come about, or the fact all these hidings are televised?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 14, 2017, 11:09:33 AM


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.
Well put. The has v the has nots. Just look at one of the recent comments. Just bring it in and those that doesn't want it can "get used to it"  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 16, 2017, 11:45:59 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 17, 2017, 12:09:18 AM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on August 17, 2017, 12:42:53 AM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way When Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)

And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Dublin have not had to play a single competive game of football to reach this AISF, by the way.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on August 17, 2017, 04:22:39 PM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 17, 2017, 04:28:20 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
How do you know who the "NOTS" are? How many is most? 51% of them?

If Sligo won Connacht by beating Galway and Mayo, do most of the NOTS think that to be easier or harder than Dublin beating Carlow, Wicklow and Wexfod?

Most importantly, what do the minority of NOTS think?


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on August 17, 2017, 10:34:26 PM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
It was 2001 when Connacht had all four league semi finalists. The Championship had Mayo edging us out in Castlebar by a point courtesy of Tom Nallen and his 26 steps goal, Galway were then turfed out by Ros in Tuam before the Rossies beat Mayo in the final with a last gasp goal. That general era from the late 90's through to 2003/4 was a great one for Connacht in the sense of having four quite competitive, if not perhaps very consistent, teams and all operating at the higher echelons, ourselves and Ros were in D1 for most of that time, Mayo had their near misses for the big one and won their only national title since 1970 in that time, and Galway of course carried home Sam twice and but for Savage being selfish late on v Kerry in 2000 might have had a third title too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 18, 2017, 12:37:35 PM
Good time indeed owenmoresider.  However, with the exception of Galway, no Connacht team has won an all-ireland since 1951 which is 66 years.
Maybe we should allow mayo into the second tier also.....

Interesting to see that there are more votes in favour than against.  I stress again that the winners and runners-up would re-enter the championship under my suggestion.