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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Snapchap on January 09, 2020, 06:52:51 PM

Poll
Question: What will be makeup of the next government?
Option 1: FF/SD/Lab/Green
Option 2: FG/SD/Lab/Green
Option 3: FG/FF
Option 4: FF/Green
Option 5: FG/Independents
Option 6: FG/Independents
Option 7: FG/Green
Option 8: FF/SF
Option 9: FF/Green/Independents
Option 10: FF Minority
Option 11: FG Minority
Option 12: FG/SF
Option 13: FF/Lab/Green
Option 14: FF/Lab
Option 15: FF/Lab/Green/Independents
Title: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 09, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Sounds like it will be imminent. Which I find surprising as I'd have thought Leo would want to afford himself as long a period as possible between the Black and Tans/RIC controversy and having to face the electorate.

Some burning questions though. Will this controversy affect their chances? Will their record on health and homelessness come back to bite them? Will the equally objectionable partitionist Micheal Martin be the first FF leader to never become Taoiseach? Will SF's slide continue or is their recent decent showing in the by-elections a sign of an up turn in fortunes?

Thoughts?

(Poll above - lets see how smart we are with our predictions)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2020, 07:23:15 PM
Greens probably get 10 seats.
FF will find it difficult to complain about the Government's record as they backed/facilitated them all the way
FF 55
FG 40
Shinners 16
Labiur 11
Greens 10
Loonielefties7
Independents of all sorts, Healy Raes, Denisheen Naughten etcetc 29
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2020, 07:30:34 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 09, 2020, 07:23:15 PM
Greens probably get 10 seats.
FF will find it difficult to complain about the Government's record as they backed/facilitated them all the way
FF 55
FG 40
Shinners 16
Labiur 11
Greens 10
Loonielefties7
Independents of all sorts, Healy Raes, Denisheen Naughten etcetc 29
FF hard to know. It's only a decade since the bailout
Independents and Labour could do well
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 09:22:55 AM
I threw FF in big for the craic but them and FG will likely get around 90 between them.
How those 90 split will decide who leads the next Government which could be a right hotch potch again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: shark on January 10, 2020, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can't see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: shark on January 10, 2020, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can't see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.

Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2020, 10:56:17 AM
The electorate has been very volatile since the crash.
They dumped FF.  They may give FG a kick up the arse- it's all very uncertain.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 12:24:30 PM
The choices aren't exactly great..
Flanagan, Madigan, Regina etc
Willie O'Dea, Barry Cowan.....
Howlin
Maryloo
Sourpussed loonylefties
Donnelly who's been through a few Parties and is always right about everything
Healy Raes, Mattie McGrath, Grealish...
Greens.
FF will probably come up with a super duper housing plan to try and grab the younger voters (and look after builders of course).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 10, 2020, 01:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: shark on January 10, 2020, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can't see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.

Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland's Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland's current strategy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 02:57:58 PM
What percentage in the BMW I wonder?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2020, 03:13:16 PM
If the election was held at the present time, I can't see anything other than a hung Dáil, much the same as we have now.
The election is Fianna Fail's to win but there is no sign that they will attract enough votes to become the largest party in the new Dail, never mind winning an overall majority.Martin just doesn't have the mass appeal needed to demolish Varadker in a head-to-head and in this media-centred age, their TV confrontations will have more influence on proceedings than any amount of spoof about policy differences.  Manifestoes  won't matter a whole lot as both major parties break their election assurances once they get into power.
Martin is a hangover from the days of Bertie and Brian Cowan and, until he and Willie O'Dea and anybody else who held ministerial office back then has stepped down, Fianna Fail won't have the mass appeal needed to return to government. The electorate seems to have long memories in this regard.
At least, that's what I find when talking to those around me and that's my personal feeling also.
Sinn Fein didn't do well at the European election; I think it's fair to say Mary Lou isn't performing well since she replaced Gerry Adams. She has gone backwards in the popularity stakes. A loss of only 3 or 4 would be a good result for the Shinners.
The Greens stand to pick up at the very least five seats- with the complexity of our PR system, it's difficult to predict the outcome in most constituencies with any confidence. The last seat , or maybe two, in a large number of them will be decided by a handful of votes. But the Greta Thunberg factor and the greater awareness of environmental issues could see the Greens coming back with double figures.
Labour will be lucky to hold what they have. Brendan Howlin hasn't been a success as a party leader and all of their main spokespersons are largely anonymous. We are going to wind up with a proliferation of mini parties and loony lefties, much the same as at present.
I'll go with:
FF 58
FG 48
Shinners 16
Labour 12
Greens 15
The Rest 19
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 10, 2020, 04:36:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 02:57:58 PM
What percentage in the BMW I wonder?
SFA
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 10, 2020, 01:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: shark on January 10, 2020, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can't see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.

Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland's Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland's current strategy.

And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 10, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 10, 2020, 05:19:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 02:57:58 PM
What percentage in the BMW I wonder?

We'd be crippled in the West without those investments. AbbVie, Allergan, Abbott and Coke are all investing massive money in the north west. Boston Scientific in Galway are expanding, Amgen in Limerick.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 05:55:26 PM
Quote from: five points on January 10, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.

Amazing. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

You don't seem to realise SME's are subject to the same (extremely low) tax rates and regulation (same as all EU States) as multinationals in this country. The same laws. Absolutely incredible to suggest otherwise.

The climate emergency is a scientific fact. It's not an opinion or a theory - it is a fact. It is happening and will have to addressed or the children of today will likely be the last to see old age on this planet. You denying these facts won't change this. People like you only make it harder to tackle this existential problem. I don't want it to be true but it is.

The decline of rural Ireland started a long time ago. It has nothing to do with climate change or an approach to tackling climate change. Rural Ireland has a huge amount to gain if tackling climate change is done is properly but there is no plan. Changes have to be made in virtually all areas but that doesn't mean "sacrifice....on the altar..." as you hysterically put it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 10, 2020, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 05:55:26 PM
Quote from: five points on January 10, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.

Amazing. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

You don't seem to realise SME's are subject to the same (extremely low) tax rates and regulation (same as all EU States) as multinationals in this country. The same laws. Absolutely incredible to suggest otherwise.

The climate emergency is a scientific fact. It's not an opinion or a theory - it is a fact. It is happening and will have to addressed or the children of today will likely be the last to see old age on this planet. You denying these facts won't change this. People like you only make it harder to tackle this existential problem. I don't want it to be true but it is.

The decline of rural Ireland started a long time ago. It has nothing to do with climate change or an approach to tackling climate change. Rural Ireland has a huge amount to gain if tackling climate change is done is properly but there is no plan. Changes have to be made in virtually all areas but that doesn't mean "sacrifice....on the altar..." as you hysterically put it.

If you really think taxes are low (one word: USC) and regulation is light (go into your local cornershop and count the compulsory signs) in this country, I think we're going to be wasting our time if we start talking about the climate "emergency".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 07:05:09 PM
Quote from: five points on January 10, 2020, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 05:55:26 PM
Quote from: five points on January 10, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.

Amazing. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

You don't seem to realise SME's are subject to the same (extremely low) tax rates and regulation (same as all EU States) as multinationals in this country. The same laws. Absolutely incredible to suggest otherwise.

The climate emergency is a scientific fact. It's not an opinion or a theory - it is a fact. It is happening and will have to addressed or the children of today will likely be the last to see old age on this planet. You denying these facts won't change this. People like you only make it harder to tackle this existential problem. I don't want it to be true but it is.

The decline of rural Ireland started a long time ago. It has nothing to do with climate change or an approach to tackling climate change. Rural Ireland has a huge amount to gain if tackling climate change is done is properly but there is no plan. Changes have to be made in virtually all areas but that doesn't mean "sacrifice....on the altar..." as you hysterically put it.

If you really think taxes are low (one word: USC) and regulation is light (go into your local cornershop and count the compulsory signs) in this country, I think we're going to be wasting our time if we start talking about the climate "emergency".

There's no point....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 10, 2020, 08:39:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
I understand your sentiments completely, albeit I think some of it is a bit misguided, and I'd love to hear what your alternative to MNCs is!

Apple are here 40 years. There are scores of tech and pharma companies who are here now 20 years. I don't know exactly how many are here over 10 years, but it's well over 100, providing tens of thousands of long term well paid jobs.

Barring the Apple case which is debatable (they have a different structure to all the other tech cos, which I can explain if anyone is bored enough to want to know), every company pays their fair share of Irish tax on Irish profits. 12.5%.
The 2.5% you hear about sometimes from negligent media is absolute nonsense.

Whatever you want to say about FF, their tax policies to attract MNCs was brilliant and really successful. Whatever you want to say about FG, their tax policies have been better again. Our offering to companies looking to move away from havens has been spectacularly successful. And its driven by substance. Ireland does not work from a tax perspective, unless the MNCs bring substance and people. Jobs.

The tax take from corporation tax last year was phenomenal. A one-off many are saying. But this year will blow that out of the water as will the following year. 2021 will be the high point, as EU /OECD rules will push some of the tax elsewhere, but we'll still end up with a good share. There'll be no EU country with a better tax system, albeit we do need to monitor Eastern Europe (and hope that Scotland doesn't gain independence!).

It will be key that we don't blow the 2020/2021 windfalls. Whatever chance we have of FF or FG not spending everything, would you really trust Labour/SD/Greens not to spend it all?

I do think we tax our entrepreneurs too highly. These people also provide hugely valuable employment. While their companies are also taxed at 12.5%, when they take out money themselves, they are being taxed at 53%-55% on their marginal income. It's not a great encouragement for people to work harder when more than half of anything extra they earn goes in tax.

Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU.

Health service is 100% a mess. My own mother had a horrific experience this year where she was sent home because a young doctor in Beaumont's primary objective seemed to be not to give her a bed, and it was a miracle it didn't cause her catastrophic injury. Back into A&E where she suffered utter humiliation for 48 hours, before being operated on by a master/genius to give her some chance of a normal life going forward.

Health service isn't a mess because FF and FG haven't thrown buckets of money at it. Some ministers have gone at it with the absolute best intentions but realised they were pishing into the wind. It's a not mess due to our doctors and nurses, who are generally very good. What it needs is a complete rip it up and start again approach. But that would mean lots of admin staff in the health service losing their job or being routed elsewhere. This can't and won't be let happen. Because of union power.
Would that improve under Lab/SD/Greens?   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 08:56:14 PM
You can't rip up the health service and start again because that would need every hospital and facility to close for a week or 2.
The only people I've heard complaining about the Sláintecare plan were Consultants because they'd lose their perk of a Private practice in public hospitals.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: larryin89 on January 10, 2020, 09:38:08 PM
"Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU."

Doubt that's true but anyway let's try another angle .

Where does one live in Dublin as a lower paid worker ?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:48:35 PM
I said "working people", not the working class.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eire90 on January 10, 2020, 10:39:43 PM
its a load of nonsense nothing will change
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2020, 11:38:47 PM
Speaking of his experiences as Minister for Health, Brendan Howlin once said it was clear that departmental policy was to make, and keep, the public health operating at such an inefficient and unacceptable level of inefficiency that the greatest number of those who could afford the cost would opt to take private insurance policies. Ministers are transient, whereas senior bureaucrats are permanent so ministers have minimal influence on policies.
(I can't recall his exact words but that's the gist of what he had to say on the matter.)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2020, 12:49:15 AM
If any of the parties were willing to tackle the welfare state they'd romp home in an election

A social welfare card would be start, a limit to what one person can take home

Put a stop the absolute sense of entitlement that people who have added nothing to the state have
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on January 11, 2020, 01:45:31 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 10, 2020, 08:39:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
I understand your sentiments completely, albeit I think some of it is a bit misguided, and I'd love to hear what your alternative to MNCs is!

Apple are here 40 years. There are scores of tech and pharma companies who are here now 20 years. I don't know exactly how many are here over 10 years, but it's well over 100, providing tens of thousands of long term well paid jobs.

Barring the Apple case which is debatable (they have a different structure to all the other tech cos, which I can explain if anyone is bored enough to want to know), every company pays their fair share of Irish tax on Irish profits. 12.5%.
The 2.5% you hear about sometimes from negligent media is absolute nonsense.

Whatever you want to say about FF, their tax policies to attract MNCs was brilliant and really successful. Whatever you want to say about FG, their tax policies have been better again. Our offering to companies looking to move away from havens has been spectacularly successful. And its driven by substance. Ireland does not work from a tax perspective, unless the MNCs bring substance and people. Jobs.

The tax take from corporation tax last year was phenomenal. A one-off many are saying. But this year will blow that out of the water as will the following year. 2021 will be the high point, as EU /OECD rules will push some of the tax elsewhere, but we'll still end up with a good share. There'll be no EU country with a better tax system, albeit we do need to monitor Eastern Europe (and hope that Scotland doesn't gain independence!).

It will be key that we don't blow the 2020/2021 windfalls. Whatever chance we have of FF or FG not spending everything, would you really trust Labour/SD/Greens not to spend it all?

I do think we tax our entrepreneurs too highly. These people also provide hugely valuable employment. While their companies are also taxed at 12.5%, when they take out money themselves, they are being taxed at 53%-55% on their marginal income. It's not a great encouragement for people to work harder when more than half of anything extra they earn goes in tax.

Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU.

Health service is 100% a mess. My own mother had a horrific experience this year where she was sent home because a young doctor in Beaumont's primary objective seemed to be not to give her a bed, and it was a miracle it didn't cause her catastrophic injury. Back into A&E where she suffered utter humiliation for 48 hours, before being operated on by a master/genius to give her some chance of a normal life going forward.

Health service isn't a mess because FF and FG haven't thrown buckets of money at it. Some ministers have gone at it with the absolute best intentions but realised they were pishing into the wind. It's a not mess due to our doctors and nurses, who are generally very good. What it needs is a complete rip it up and start again approach. But that would mean lots of admin staff in the health service losing their job or being routed elsewhere. This can't and won't be let happen. Because of union power.
Would that improve under Lab/SD/Greens?
What a load of absolute tripe. Ireland has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, corporate tax rates around, and if the government had a set of balls that would be their first port of call, massively increasing the corporate tax rate for large multinationals to tackle the the housing and health crisis. But no, you as a clear West Brit, for some random reason unrelated to this matter wanting Scotland to remain attached to the UK, says it all. The fact of the matter is that these entrepreneurs are not taxed enough, and taxing them properly, never mind anything unrelated with Scotland, would go a long way to solving simple deficit issues.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 11, 2020, 10:58:05 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2020, 11:38:47 PM
Speaking of his experiences as Minister for Health, Brendan Howlin once said it was clear that departmental policy was to make, and keep, the public health operating at such an inefficient and unacceptable level of inefficiency that the greatest number of those who could afford the cost would opt to take private insurance policies. Ministers are transient, whereas senior bureaucrats are permanent so ministers have minimal influence on policies.
(I can't recall his exact words but that's the gist of what he had to say on the matter.)
It appears that way alright.
Mind you in practice if the Service did improve a lot of people would drop health insurance meaning the Service would have to expand again to cope!!
Why do we need a HSE, can the Dept of Health not run the Service for a population of 5m??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 11, 2020, 11:16:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:48:35 PM
I said "working people", not the working class.
But still didn't answer the question.

How are working people (in a country with pretty much full employment) being screwed over by FG and how would Lab/SD/Greens/you do better?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 11:17:16 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2020, 12:49:15 AM
If any of the parties were willing to tackle the welfare state they'd romp home in an election

A social welfare card would be start, a limit to what one person can take home

Put a stop the absolute sense of entitlement that people who have added nothing to the state have
You could say the same about corporate welfare.
The economic model is very open and very volatile when the global economy gets into trouble. The economy contracted over 12% from 2008 to 2010.
Social welfare can't get that sort of effect.

5% of people own 40% of everything. There is enough money there to fund the health system.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 11:21:32 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 11, 2020, 11:16:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:48:35 PM
I said "working people", not the working class.
But still didn't answer the question.

How are working people (in a country with pretty much full employment) being screwed over by FG and how would Lab/SD/Greens/you do better?

Full employment doesn't mean what it used to
with 10k homeless. Full employment doesn't mean payrises or affordable housing.  FG are business as usual and a lot of things are broken

Income taxes are higher than elsewhere because of the last crash. Decisions made a decade ago.
.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 11, 2020, 11:23:12 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2020, 12:49:15 AM
If any of the parties were willing to tackle the welfare state they'd romp home in an election

A social welfare card would be start, a limit to what one person can take home

Put a stop the absolute sense of entitlement that people who have added nothing to the state have
They wouldn't romp home in the slightest. Our media are very liberal/left wing. Anyone who publicly suggests there are people gaming the welfare system are hung out to dry in the media.

We have to look after the lads sitting at home scratching themselves when they get a moment to spare between playing X-Box and watching Netflix.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 11, 2020, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on January 11, 2020, 01:45:31 AM

What a load of absolute tripe. Ireland has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, corporate tax rates around, and if the government had a set of balls that would be their first port of call, massively increasing the corporate tax rate for large multinationals to tackle the the housing and health crisis. But no, you as a clear West Brit, for some random reason unrelated to this matter wanting Scotland to remain attached to the UK, says it all. The fact of the matter is that these entrepreneurs are not taxed enough, and taxing them properly, never mind anything unrelated with Scotland, would go a long way to solving simple deficit issues.

Good man.
Increasing the CT rate from 12.5% would be the policy of a complete moron. Even Sinn Fein copped on to that 5 or 6 years ago.

If Scotland got independence they would immediately reduce their corporation tax rate to similar to Ireland's and they'd rejoin the EU, because they know that would help attract foreign investment. They would instantly become a significant obstacle to us continuing to be so successful in attracting new MNCs to Ireland.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 02:00:06 PM
The tax model ended up generating 2 economies - Multinational and local- because the benefits aren't spread around and there is a limit to what tax redistribution can do to compensate. BMW gdp per head is about half of Leinster/Munster. Within those 2 the split between MNC/local is probably close to 2/1.

Running asset bubbles in the absence of a lender of last resort is insane.

There will probably be a lot of reform after the next crash.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 11, 2020, 04:01:56 PM
Yanks describe anything not extremely right wing as "left wing" and "liberal", the latter seems to be their ultimate insult.
Always sad when you see Irish people buying into that sirt if sh1te .
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 11, 2020, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 10, 2020, 01:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: shark on January 10, 2020, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can't see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.

Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland's Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland's current strategy.

21,844 jobs created in FDI companies.  that's the gross figure, (in Ruud Gullit parlance) the net gain figure after job losses are deducted  is  13,867
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 11, 2020, 09:43:56 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 11, 2020, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 10, 2020, 01:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: shark on January 10, 2020, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can't see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.

Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland's Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland's current strategy.

21,844 jobs created in FDI companies.  that's the gross figure, (in Ruud Gullit parlance) the net gain figure after job losses are deducted  is  13,867
And probably 90% around Dublin
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 12, 2020, 08:59:10 AM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can't force companies to locate in particular counties. There's no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

"54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren't being provided by the private sector."

Some great work being done and some great successes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 12, 2020, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 12, 2020, 08:59:10 AM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can't force companies to locate in particular counties. There's no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

"54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren't being provided by the private sector."

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 12, 2020, 06:14:14 PM
You haven't got the first clue what that question even means!

The response is in my previous post. If you've any more questions, try putting them in your own words.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 12, 2020, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 12, 2020, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 12, 2020, 08:59:10 AM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can't force companies to locate in particular counties. There's no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

"54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren't being provided by the private sector."

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?

GDP in the Irish context is grossly inflated, the real difference is less.
What do you suggest, lowering the GDP in the East and South, or increasing it in the BMW? How would you do this?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 12, 2020, 06:38:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 12, 2020, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 12, 2020, 08:59:10 AM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can't force companies to locate in particular counties. There's no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

"54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren't being provided by the private sector."

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?
I don't think he is necessarily saying that it's a success- or a failure either for that matter! The IDA says it set out to achieve a 30% uplift in investments in a number of regions over a five year period and investments in the Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.
That has to be considered a success by any rationale but since since investment in the region was very low to begin with, the improvement is relative- the region still lags behind all others.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 12, 2020, 06:56:45 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 12, 2020, 06:38:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 12, 2020, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 12, 2020, 08:59:10 AM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can't force companies to locate in particular counties. There's no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

"54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren't being provided by the private sector."

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?
I don't think he is necessarily saying that it's a success- or a failure either for that matter! The IDA says it set out to achieve a 30% uplift in investments in a number of regions over a five year period and investments in the Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.
That has to be considered a success by any rationale but since since investment in the region was very low to begin with, the improvement is relative- the region still lags behind all others.
The IDA is a Government Agency.
Regional inequality is driving people to Dublin and exacerbating the problems there.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 12, 2020, 07:01:01 PM
How do we reverse or equalise things between the BMW and the East/South/Southeast?
Google, Apple or Intel arent going to set up or move to Elphin or Ballyjamesduff.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2020, 08:38:37 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 12, 2020, 07:01:01 PM
How do we reverse or equalise things between the BMW and the East/South/Southeast?
Google, Apple or Intel arent going to set up or move to Elphin or Ballyjamesduff.

Well one of them would have been in Ballinasloe but for planning

I know it was only a data centre but it helps


We do have a lot of pharma and manufacturing in the west. Much better companies to have as they give a good mixture of high and low skilled labour and they provide secondary employment, lots of local companies that provide niche products to these.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 13, 2020, 03:33:22 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 10, 2020, 08:39:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
I understand your sentiments completely, albeit I think some of it is a bit misguided, and I'd love to hear what your alternative to MNCs is!

Apple are here 40 years. There are scores of tech and pharma companies who are here now 20 years. I don't know exactly how many are here over 10 years, but it's well over 100, providing tens of thousands of long term well paid jobs.

Barring the Apple case which is debatable (they have a different structure to all the other tech cos, which I can explain if anyone is bored enough to want to know), every company pays their fair share of Irish tax on Irish profits. 12.5%.
The 2.5% you hear about sometimes from negligent media is absolute nonsense.

Whatever you want to say about FF, their tax policies to attract MNCs was brilliant and really successful. Whatever you want to say about FG, their tax policies have been better again. Our offering to companies looking to move away from havens has been spectacularly successful. And its driven by substance. Ireland does not work from a tax perspective, unless the MNCs bring substance and people. Jobs.

The tax take from corporation tax last year was phenomenal. A one-off many are saying. But this year will blow that out of the water as will the following year. 2021 will be the high point, as EU /OECD rules will push some of the tax elsewhere, but we'll still end up with a good share. There'll be no EU country with a better tax system, albeit we do need to monitor Eastern Europe (and hope that Scotland doesn't gain independence!).

It will be key that we don't blow the 2020/2021 windfalls. Whatever chance we have of FF or FG not spending everything, would you really trust Labour/SD/Greens not to spend it all?

I do think we tax our entrepreneurs too highly. These people also provide hugely valuable employment. While their companies are also taxed at 12.5%, when they take out money themselves, they are being taxed at 53%-55% on their marginal income. It's not a great encouragement for people to work harder when more than half of anything extra they earn goes in tax.

Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU.

Health service is 100% a mess. My own mother had a horrific experience this year where she was sent home because a young doctor in Beaumont's primary objective seemed to be not to give her a bed, and it was a miracle it didn't cause her catastrophic injury. Back into A&E where she suffered utter humiliation for 48 hours, before being operated on by a master/genius to give her some chance of a normal life going forward.

Health service isn't a mess because FF and FG haven't thrown buckets of money at it. Some ministers have gone at it with the absolute best intentions but realised they were pishing into the wind. It's a not mess due to our doctors and nurses, who are generally very good. What it needs is a complete rip it up and start again approach. But that would mean lots of admin staff in the health service losing their job or being routed elsewhere. This can't and won't be let happen. Because of union power.
Would that improve under Lab/SD/Greens?

Apologies for the delay in replying, was busy with a few things over the weekend. I got halfway through one reply and had to go and lost the post.

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Working people are screwed over because they DO pay their fair share of taxes and can't avoid it. They pay relatively high rates of tax on income which is deducted at source. If you have kids you know that "free" education is not a reality. Heath system a mess means most feel they have to have Medical Insurance to ensure they get treated on time. Illegal VRT on cars, high VAT rates - I could go on. Those on higher rates of income pay the same marginal rate of tax which is crazy. Tax rates are graduated for a reason and then it stops. Unlike many who are conditioned to think otherwise, the numbers of people of State benefits doesn't bother me. The money spent on this pales into insignificance when you compare it to tax evasion/avoidance. That's where our primary focus should be. It's not surprise to me that in an era where tax rates are under scrutiny we amazingly have higher tax revenues despite not the best economic conditions.

On to the Health Service. What you've conveniently avoided in all of this is the two tier system and the private aspect of the health system. These have been encouraged and facilitated at every turn by FF, FG, the PD's and (shamefully) Labour over decades. Money has been thrown at the issue but with no strategy which is reckless and irresponsible. The administrative inefficiencies in the Health system are mind boggling. These problems are known for a long time and nothing has been done to address them. Maybe it's difficult with existing contracts and resources but every day we put off the transition makes it harder. Unions aren't as powerful as they once were but they must be part of the solution. I believe if a serious, honest effort at reform was on the table Unions and their members wouldn't be found wanting. The people who work in the HSE are by and large good people, highly qualified and dedicated and they want things to be better. Our governments have done nothing to help them bar right and check and tell them sort it our yourselves (but don't change X, Y or Z). Blaming the Unions is just a total red herring. What solutions have they blocked? I don't know if Lab/Soc Dems/Greens will improve it but I believe to people in SD/Greens are genuine in their aspirations to make people's lives better (Labour need to prove it but I hope they've learned their lessons).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 11:28:58 AM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dublin7 on January 14, 2020, 11:45:40 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 11:28:58 AM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.

He new FG wouldn't win the no confidence vote so called the election to avoid the embarrassment of defeat.

Why would he call it for a Saturday? Friday was an ideal day as you had the weekend for the bloodsports of watching all the election results coming in.

Election is on the same day as Ireland v Wales in 6 nations in Dublin, but I doubt Leo was aware of that. I wonder will our wonderful sports minister go to the Aviva for the game??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 14, 2020, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 14, 2020, 11:45:40 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 11:28:58 AM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.

He new FG wouldn't win the no confidence vote so called the election to avoid the embarrassment of defeat.

Why would he call it for a Saturday? Friday was an ideal day as you had the weekend for the bloodsports of watching all the election results coming in.

Election is on the same day as Ireland v Wales in 6 nations in Dublin, but I doubt Leo was aware of that. I wonder will our wonderful sports minister go to the Aviva for the game??
He might as well, get to see a few mauls before he himself is mauled the next day.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: LooseCannon on January 14, 2020, 12:13:17 PM
So, what are the predictions seats-wise?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 12:14:08 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 13, 2020, 03:33:22 PM
My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

The alternative may not be one thing, but a number of different things. Work is needed to develop multiple measures, each of which can make a contribution.

Quote12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.


There is no particular logic for corporation tax at all, tax should come when human beings receive the money. However, given that corporation tax exists,  then the Irish model of a lowish rate with few exemptions is a reasonable one. It may be the case that big companies are more lightly taxed than the local business, and this cannot be justified.

QuoteWorking people are screwed over because they DO pay their fair share of taxes and can't avoid it. They pay relatively high rates of tax on income which is deducted at source. If you have kids you know that "free" education is not a reality. Heath system a mess means most feel they have to have Medical Insurance to ensure they get treated on time. Illegal VRT on cars, high VAT rates - I could go on. Those on higher rates of income pay the same marginal rate of tax which is crazy. Tax rates are graduated for a reason and then it stops. Unlike many who are conditioned to think otherwise, the numbers of people of State benefits doesn't bother me. The money spent on this pales into insignificance when you compare it to tax evasion/avoidance. That's where our primary focus should be. It's not surprise to me that in an era where tax rates are under scrutiny we amazingly have higher tax revenues despite not the best economic conditions.

Many people do not pay tax or receive more than they pay. This is appropriate in a social democratic society, but it also leads to a lot of votes from people not really interested in reforming the system.

QuoteOn to the Health Service. What you've conveniently avoided in all of this is the two tier system and the private aspect of the health system. These have been encouraged and facilitated at every turn by FF, FG, the PD's and (shamefully) Labour over decades. Money has been thrown at the issue but with no strategy which is reckless and irresponsible. The administrative inefficiencies in the Health system are mind boggling. These problems are known for a long time and nothing has been done to address them. Maybe it's difficult with existing contracts and resources but every day we put off the transition makes it harder. Unions aren't as powerful as they once were but they must be part of the solution. I believe if a serious, honest effort at reform was on the table Unions and their members wouldn't be found wanting. The people who work in the HSE are by and large good people, highly qualified and dedicated and they want things to be better. Our governments have done nothing to help them bar right and check and tell them sort it our yourselves (but don't change X, Y or Z). Blaming the Unions is just a total red herring. What solutions have they blocked? I don't know if Lab/Soc Dems/Greens will improve it but I believe to people in SD/Greens are genuine in their aspirations to make people's lives better (Labour need to prove it but I hope they've learned their lessons).

Unions are blamed, but the real problem is a  lack of clarity of thought at management level. In general, there are efficient parts of the public service and less  efficient parts and they have much the same union agreements. But there is never any discussion of efficiency and no real reward for improving it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Shamrock Shore on January 14, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 12:38:52 PM
And a FF/ SF/ Green Government Sham?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 01:11:48 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on January 14, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19

FG 45
FF 43
Lab 12
SF 15
Green 17
Lefties 4
Indies  rest

The country is trína chéile
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 14, 2020, 01:30:16 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on January 14, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19
FF 57
FG 48
SF 18
GRN 9
LAB 7
PBP/LEFT 3
SD's 2
Others 16
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 14, 2020, 01:53:33 PM
I don't know a lot(embarrassed to say) about ROI politics, what is the most likely make up of the government?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 14, 2020, 02:37:15 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 13, 2020, 03:33:22 PM

All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon.

On to the Health Service. What you've conveniently avoided in all of this is the two tier system and the private aspect of the health system. These have been encouraged and facilitated at every turn by FF, FG, the PD's and (shamefully) Labour over decades. Money has been thrown at the issue but with no strategy which is reckless and irresponsible. The administrative inefficiencies in the Health system are mind boggling. These problems are known for a long time and nothing has been done to address them. Maybe it's difficult with existing contracts and resources but every day we put off the transition makes it harder. Unions aren't as powerful as they once were but they must be part of the solution. I believe if a serious, honest effort at reform was on the table Unions and their members wouldn't be found wanting. The people who work in the HSE are by and large good people, highly qualified and dedicated and they want things to be better. Our governments have done nothing to help them bar right and check and tell them sort it our yourselves (but don't change X, Y or Z). Blaming the Unions is just a total red herring. What solutions have they blocked? I don't know if Lab/Soc Dems/Greens will improve it but I believe to people in SD/Greens are genuine in their aspirations to make people's lives better (Labour need to prove it but I hope they've learned their lessons).
I'm far from an expert on the health service and can only go on my experiences.
The story I told above was about a person who has had private health insurance for the last 40 years. No help whatsoever when you're lying incapacitated on a trolley in Beaumont A&E! 

But I was involved in the financial side of a private hospital for a while. Extremely well run and profitable. Could pay front line staff well, could fire under-performers, didn't have reams of middle management clogging up resources and adding no value. Unions willing to engage in a process that would see dead wood removed? I'm not so sure.

Tax hamonisation
- Rate harmonisation is not happening. Ever.

- There was a proposal doing the rounds for the last few years called CCCTB. Basically a tool where taxable profits would have nothing to do with the accounts of a company and they'd come up with a formula based on where customers of companies live. You could have a situation where the Irish company has 70% of the group's European profits and another 30 countries have 1% each. CCCTB would disregard and give Ireland say 5% and divvy up the 95% among everyone else. Ireland would still tax at 12.5% but on a much small base. Turns out Germany would be a net loser if CCTB would be implemented, so it'll never be implemented with them not supporting it.

- Digital Services Tax (DST) is where it's really at in terms of seeking more tax on big MNCs. A straight 2 or 3% tax on revenues earned from customers in specific countries. It was supposed to be brought in on a worldwide or even European basis but some countries have jumped the gun. France, Italy, UK, Austria and Turkey have already brought it in or are about to bring it in. This will hit the MNCs hard, but whether it will impact Ireland's tax take is hard to say. As I said before we'll have gangbusters CT take in 2020 and 2021, then it will decrease a bit. But I still think it'll be very strong and won't go below 2018 levels, perhaps even 2019 levels might be sustainable. I don't think DST will have a significant impact on Ireland's competitiveness, but it does bring uncertainty and we'll need to see how it plays out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 14, 2020, 02:37:15 PM
- There was a proposal doing the rounds for the last few years called CCCTB. Basically a tool where taxable profits would have nothing to do with the accounts of a company and they'd come up with a formula based on where customers of companies live. You could have a situation where the Irish company has 70% of the group's European profits and another 30 countries have 1% each. CCCTB would disregard and give Ireland say 5% and divvy up the 95% among everyone else. Ireland would still tax at 12.5% but on a much small base. Turns out Germany would be a net loser if CCTB would be implemented, so it'll never be implemented with them not supporting it.

The point is that countries are quick to talk about Google, but this concept does not only apply to Google. If Irish people buy a Mercedes car or Chanel perfume, and they have bought more of these luxury goods as the country has become richer, then the profit from those products lies in France or Germany and they don't think that is a problem.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on January 14, 2020, 03:10:23 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on January 14, 2020, 11:45:40 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 11:28:58 AM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.

He new FG wouldn't win the no confidence vote so called the election to avoid the embarrassment of defeat.

Why would he call it for a Saturday? Friday was an ideal day as you had the weekend for the bloodsports of watching all the election results coming in.

Election is on the same day as Ireland v Wales in 6 nations in Dublin, but I doubt Leo was aware of that. I wonder will our wonderful sports minister go to the Aviva for the game??

To avoid the scenario where parents have to take a day off work or scramble to arrange alternative childcare because the schools are closed for polling day.
Thinking of the working people, the people who get up early ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 14, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 13, 2020, 03:33:22 PM

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Sorry for splitting in two.

Agree completely re encouraging indigenous business and sustainable renewable energy. But that can be done alongside continuing to attract MNCs. Enterprise Ireland has some great supports for Irish businesses.

MNCs pay 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. "Huge Irish tax breaks" are a complete myth.

Imagine a newspaper report saying Hound earns 100k and pays 50k tax in Ireland. Hound's brother lives in the Cayman Islands earns 900k and pays no tax. So the Hound brothers have an effective tax rate of 5% and it's a disgrace!

That's exactly what the media do with the Googles and Facebooks. They combine their Irish resident company which pays 12.5% tax and their Bermudan or Cayman resident companies that pay no tax, and say overall it's a 2% effective tax rate. Yes, they use havens to the biggest extent possible, and absolutely fair enough to have a go at that, but to call it an Irish tax break is just the height of nonsense.

These companies employ thousands, pay millions in tax and do lots of business with small Irish businesses. They are fantastic for Ireland. IDA has said in their recent press release that one third of MNCs in Ireland have been here for over 20 years.

Here's IDA's latest release on new Ireland wins:

Adesto Technologies Corporation, semiconductors/IOT, have announced plans to partner with the European Space Agency which will see the creation of senior engineering roles in its Cork and Dublin offices.

ARTeSYN, biopharma, plans to expand its operations in Waterford by adding 50 new roles in Production, Engineering, Customer Service and Research & Development

EJ, access solutions, new production facility in Birr, Co. Offaly

Elavon, card payment solutions, has invested in its office, making Arklow, Co. Wicklow a mini Fintech hub in Ireland

Eurofins, life sciences, new Software Engineering Centre in Leopardstown, creation of 150 high-tech jobs

Fort Wayne Metals, medical devices manufacturer, new €10m manufacturing facility in Castlebar leading to the creation of 80 new jobs, doubling their current workforce

FundRock, investment fund manager, new office in Limerick employing 30 people with plans to expand this in the future

Huawei, ICT, new Dublin office which will create 100 jobs

Janssen Sciences, part of J&J, expansion of its manufacturing building in Co. Cork which will create 200 new jobs

Liberty Insurance, plans to create over 120 new roles, expanding its operations in Co. Cavan

Otterbox Products, a smartphone cases, Cork new office, up to 100 employees

Overstock, an online retail shopping site, new European base in the IDA business park in Sligo, plans to recruit 20 employees this year

Panasonic Avionics, in-flight entertainment, new repair shop in Dundalk

Patreon, payment platform, new European Headquarters in Dublin, will create 30 new jobs

PublicRelay, analytics firm, to open an office in Cavan which is expected to create 20 new jobs

Travelport, technology company in travel industry, 22 new jobs in their Dublin operations

WuXi Vaccines, biologics technology, plans to build a $240m vaccine production facility in Dundalk which will see the creation of 200 new jobs

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 03:34:47 PM
Elphin loses out again >:(
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 14, 2020, 03:54:51 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 14, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 13, 2020, 03:33:22 PM

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Sorry for splitting in two.

Agree completely re encouraging indigenous business and sustainable renewable energy. But that can be done alongside continuing to attract MNCs. Enterprise Ireland has some great supports for Irish businesses.

MNCs pay 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. "Huge Irish tax breaks" are a complete myth.

Imagine a newspaper report saying Hound earns 100k and pays 50k tax in Ireland. Hound's brother lives in the Cayman Islands earns 900k and pays no tax. So the Hound brothers have an effective tax rate of 5% and it's a disgrace!

That's exactly what the media do with the Googles and Facebooks. They combine their Irish resident company which pays 12.5% tax and their Bermudan or Cayman resident companies that pay no tax, and say overall it's a 2% effective tax rate. Yes, they use havens to the biggest extent possible, and absolutely fair enough to have a go at that, but to call it an Irish tax break is just the height of nonsense.

These companies employ thousands, pay millions in tax and do lots of business with small Irish businesses. They are fantastic for Ireland. IDA has said in their recent press release that one third of MNCs in Ireland have been here for over 20 years.

Here's IDA's latest release on new Ireland wins:

Adesto Technologies Corporation, semiconductors/IOT, have announced plans to partner with the European Space Agency which will see the creation of senior engineering roles in its Cork and Dublin offices.

ARTeSYN, biopharma, plans to expand its operations in Waterford by adding 50 new roles in Production, Engineering, Customer Service and Research & Development

EJ, access solutions, new production facility in Birr, Co. Offaly

Elavon, card payment solutions, has invested in its office, making Arklow, Co. Wicklow a mini Fintech hub in Ireland

Eurofins, life sciences, new Software Engineering Centre in Leopardstown, creation of 150 high-tech jobs

Fort Wayne Metals, medical devices manufacturer, new €10m manufacturing facility in Castlebar leading to the creation of 80 new jobs, doubling their current workforce

FundRock, investment fund manager, new office in Limerick employing 30 people with plans to expand this in the future

Huawei, ICT, new Dublin office which will create 100 jobs

Janssen Sciences, part of J&J, expansion of its manufacturing building in Co. Cork which will create 200 new jobs

Liberty Insurance, plans to create over 120 new roles, expanding its operations in Co. Cavan

Otterbox Products, a smartphone cases, Cork new office, up to 100 employees

Overstock, an online retail shopping site, new European base in the IDA business park in Sligo, plans to recruit 20 employees this year

Panasonic Avionics, in-flight entertainment, new repair shop in Dundalk

Patreon, payment platform, new European Headquarters in Dublin, will create 30 new jobs

PublicRelay, analytics firm, to open an office in Cavan which is expected to create 20 new jobs

Travelport, technology company in travel industry, 22 new jobs in their Dublin operations

WuXi Vaccines, biologics technology, plans to build a $240m vaccine production facility in Dundalk which will see the creation of 200 new jobs


I would wager that half of those wouldve happened without any IDA intervention. The company work for hired 100 people last year, nothing to do with the IDA, all to do with increased sales.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on January 14, 2020, 03:56:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 01:11:48 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on January 14, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19

FG 45
FF 43
Lab 12
SF 15
Green 17
Lefties 4
Indies  rest

The country is trína chéile

Really, the safest bet would be a FG/FF coalition if both could hold their noses and do it. Any other combination is leaving us at the mercy of a cabal of lefties/republicans/greens and other head-the-balls, none of whom would provide us with the political stability we need for the turbulent few years ahead. FG still the safest bet anyway, no matter what you might think.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 04:15:26 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 14, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 13, 2020, 03:33:22 PM

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Sorry for splitting in two.

Agree completely re encouraging indigenous business and sustainable renewable energy. But that can be done alongside continuing to attract MNCs. Enterprise Ireland has some great supports for Irish businesses.

MNCs pay 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. "Huge Irish tax breaks" are a complete myth.

Imagine a newspaper report saying Hound earns 100k and pays 50k tax in Ireland. Hound's brother lives in the Cayman Islands earns 900k and pays no tax. So the Hound brothers have an effective tax rate of 5% and it's a disgrace!

That's exactly what the media do with the Googles and Facebooks. They combine their Irish resident company which pays 12.5% tax and their Bermudan or Cayman resident companies that pay no tax, and say overall it's a 2% effective tax rate. Yes, they use havens to the biggest extent possible, and absolutely fair enough to have a go at that, but to call it an Irish tax break is just the height of nonsense.

These companies employ thousands, pay millions in tax and do lots of business with small Irish businesses. They are fantastic for Ireland. IDA has said in their recent press release that one third of MNCs in Ireland have been here for over 20 years.

Here's IDA's latest release on new Ireland wins:

Adesto Technologies Corporation, semiconductors/IOT, have announced plans to partner with the European Space Agency which will see the creation of senior engineering roles in its Cork and Dublin offices.

ARTeSYN, biopharma, plans to expand its operations in Waterford by adding 50 new roles in Production, Engineering, Customer Service and Research & Development

EJ, access solutions, new production facility in Birr, Co. Offaly

Elavon, card payment solutions, has invested in its office, making Arklow, Co. Wicklow a mini Fintech hub in Ireland

Eurofins, life sciences, new Software Engineering Centre in Leopardstown, creation of 150 high-tech jobs

Fort Wayne Metals, medical devices manufacturer, new €10m manufacturing facility in Castlebar leading to the creation of 80 new jobs, doubling their current workforce

FundRock, investment fund manager, new office in Limerick employing 30 people with plans to expand this in the future

Huawei, ICT, new Dublin office which will create 100 jobs

Janssen Sciences, part of J&J, expansion of its manufacturing building in Co. Cork which will create 200 new jobs

Liberty Insurance, plans to create over 120 new roles, expanding its operations in Co. Cavan

Otterbox Products, a smartphone cases, Cork new office, up to 100 employees

Overstock, an online retail shopping site, new European base in the IDA business park in Sligo, plans to recruit 20 employees this year

Panasonic Avionics, in-flight entertainment, new repair shop in Dundalk

Patreon, payment platform, new European Headquarters in Dublin, will create 30 new jobs

PublicRelay, analytics firm, to open an office in Cavan which is expected to create 20 new jobs

Travelport, technology company in travel industry, 22 new jobs in their Dublin operations

WuXi Vaccines, biologics technology, plans to build a $240m vaccine production facility in Dundalk which will see the creation of 200 new jobs


The sun doesn't shine out of their arses, Hound. They bring benefits but at the expense of the rest of the economy.
The Irish economy is fine when things are calm and then falls into crisis. An economy more focused on local needs might be more resilient. 

"The high relative openness of the Irish economy does, however, leave it more exposed to changes and shocks in global demand"

Between 08 and 2011 the economy contracted by 12%
Unemployment went to 15% in 2011
Net emigration restarted.

Next time will be even worse. 

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 04:19:21 PM
Quote from: mouview on January 14, 2020, 03:56:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 01:11:48 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on January 14, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19

FG 45
FF 43
Lab 12
SF 15
Green 17
Lefties 4
Indies  rest

The country is trína chéile

Really, the safest bet would be a FG/FF coalition if both could hold their noses and do it. Any other combination is leaving us at the mercy of a cabal of lefties/republicans/greens and other head-the-balls, none of whom would provide us with the political stability we need for the turbulent few years ahead. FG still the safest bet anyway, no matter what you might think.

Safety is relative, Mo.
They are all groupthinkers. 
They have no idea what is coming down the tracks.

Even the idea that it is safe to have an election because Brexit is sorted out is debatable
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 04:35:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 04:15:26 PM
The sun doesn't shine out of their arses, Hound. They bring benefits but at the expense of the rest of the economy.
The Irish economy is fine when things are calm and then falls into crisis. An economy more focused on local needs might be more resilient. 

"The high relative openness of the Irish economy does, however, leave it more exposed to changes and shocks in global demand"

Between 08 and 2011 the economy contracted by 12%
Unemployment went to 15% in 2011
Net emigration restarted.

Next time will be even worse.

I don't follow the logic.

>> If you aren't exporting then you are f**ked long term. Would you have the ROI become an economic basket case like NI?
>> Having a diverse multinational industry base is more resilient than packing your eggs into relatively few local baskets. Explain how an economy "more focused on local needs might be more resilient"* - unless you mean 'cos its shite in the "good times" its just a bit more shite in the bad times?
>> The economy here contracted so much due the finance industry. That was a problem made of our own greed and cute hoors being too cute for their own good.

*and explain what that even means.


I agree entirely that a multinational selling something to someone in Ireland should pay no less tax than a local shop/factory for selling that same thing. Beyond that, I've no issue with the multinationals as long as they aren't in the business of exploitation elsewhere.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 04:35:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 04:15:26 PM
The sun doesn't shine out of their arses, Hound. They bring benefits but at the expense of the rest of the economy.
The Irish economy is fine when things are calm and then falls into crisis. An economy more focused on local needs might be more resilient. 

"The high relative openness of the Irish economy does, however, leave it more exposed to changes and shocks in global demand"

Between 08 and 2011 the economy contracted by 12%
Unemployment went to 15% in 2011
Net emigration restarted.

Next time will be even worse.

I don't follow the logic.

>> If you aren't exporting then you are f**ked long term. Would you have the ROI become an economic basket case like NI?
>> Having a diverse multinational industry base is more resilient than packing your eggs into relatively few local baskets. Explain how an economy "more focused on local needs might be more resilient"* - unless you mean 'cos its shite in the "good times" its just a bit more shite in the bad times?
>> The economy here contracted so much due the finance industry. That was a problem made of our own greed and cute hoors being too cute for their own good.

*and explain what that even means.


I agree entirely that a multinational selling something to someone in Ireland should pay no less tax than a local shop/factory for selling that same thing. Beyond that, I've no issue with the multinationals as long as they aren't in the business of exploitation elsewhere.

The whole economic model is the problem. There is too much downside risk and not enough investment in strengthening the local economy.
Very few Irish companies develop scale. They tend to be sold off. Why ?
Why do we keep on coming back to property bubbles ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 05:19:23 PM
Love it hate the Multis at least they kept an economy going from 2008 to 2014 during the collapse of  the FF/PD neoliberal unreal economy of lending each other money to buy houses from each other to rent to the Polush lads building the houses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 14, 2020, 05:27:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
The whole economic model is the problem. There is too much downside risk and not enough investment in strengthening the local economy.
Very few Irish companies develop scale. They tend to be sold off. Why ?
Why do we keep on coming back to property bubbles ?

Too small a country, not enough wealth in it, and too much tax on new wealth creation, especially when you consider the risk of losing everything if it goes haywire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
The whole economic model is the problem. There is too much downside risk and not enough investment in strengthening the local economy.

Your dodging my main question.

Again - 'Explain how an economy "more focused on local needs might be more resilient"*

*and explain what that even means.'


Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
Very few Irish companies develop scale. They tend to be sold off. Why ?

Many reasons:
- no desire for the stress of expanding
- happy with their lot
- unsure of challenge of expanding
- don't have sufficient cash to expand in the means necessary and maintain security


Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
Why do we keep on coming back to property bubbles ?

'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: LooseCannon on January 14, 2020, 05:45:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 03:34:47 PM
Elphin loses out again >:(

It'd be an ideal location for Apple, with the Orchard there and all....!






Provided the gobshites in Wicklow stay quiet.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 06:39:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 05:33:20 PM
'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.

Dublin prices haven't bounced back either, being 30% below 2007. That is 30% less that they are likely to fall.
Banks maybe greedy, but the Central Bank does not allow them throw money at you nowadays.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: tyrone08 on January 14, 2020, 06:58:51 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 06:39:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 05:33:20 PM
'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.

Dublin prices haven't bounced back either, being 30% below 2007. That is 30% less that they are likely to fall.
Banks maybe greedy, but the Central Bank does not allow them throw money at you nowadays.

See a report on housing the other day which showed rental prices in Dublin were roughly 200 euro higher than in 2008. I assume its true but that is crazy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 07:36:20 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 06:39:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 05:33:20 PM
'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.

Dublin prices haven't bounced back either, being 30% below 2007. That is 30% less that they are likely to fall.
Banks maybe greedy, but the Central Bank does not allow them throw money at you nowadays.

It's another property bubble driven by ultra low interest rates

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rppi/residentialpropertypriceindexoctober2019/

« Dublin residential property prices are 21.3% lower than their February 2007 peak, »

Rates will go up when banks crash again.
Banks are strictly regulated but shadow banks are not.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 07:59:48 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on January 14, 2020, 05:45:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 03:34:47 PM
Elphin loses out again >:(

It'd be an ideal location for Apple, with the Orchard there and all....!






Provided the gobshites in Wicklow stay quiet.

😆😆😆

Th'oul windmill would never be able to power it!
Anyway it's full speed ahead on the media with hours of nonstop waffle.
Godhelpus only 25 more days of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 12:42:34 AM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 01:27:22 AM
A xenophobic Gobsh1te.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 05:29:36 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-election-will-expose-fault-lines-in-irish-democracy-1.4139648

« As we go into election mode, this country is more fragile than we imagined.

Good luck to all the decent ones who dream of something better. »
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 09:50:14 AM
This from a now defunct blog called comharsdc.ie written in 2010

"Support politicians who are willing to read, to understand complexity, and the tradeoffs involved, and to communicate choices and decisions effectively.
There is a tendency in all democracies to disparage the 'political class' and to deride all politicians as being simultaneously venal, incompetent and dishonest."
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 12:42:34 AM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.

You need to grow up and take a look at yourself if you think this is an issue or even real. Seriously.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 15, 2020, 10:35:50 AM
EOH spot on here, for a change.


https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/eilis-ohanlon-spare-me-the-sanctimony-of-the-south-ric-commemoration-controversy-shows-theyre-as-tribal-as-northern-ireland-38862544.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.

People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 15, 2020, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.

People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

Not sure why that is a negative Seanie. He forced Boris into a border in the Irish Sea, and the closest the island has come to economic integration in our lifetime. Boris got elected, cast DUP adrift, and quickly copperfastened the deal.. That to me was one of the best performances by a Taoiseach on the international stage. It should not be forgotten that the health and housing crisis have their origins in the last FF government, or have we forgotten. FG have made a very poor fist at fixing but not easy fix Martin's creation no matter what money you throw at.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
Climate change always happens. The current panic will attract votes for the Greens from gullible youngsters who haven't seen it all before, along with disaffected leftwingers attracted by their watermelon politics.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 12:17:21 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 12:42:34 AM

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.


I expect both Eoghan Murphy and Regina Doherty to lose.

Murphy's constituency (the old Dublin South East) has form in kicking out underperforming Ministers.

Helen McEntee is losing a big part of her catchment area to Cavan-Monaghan and should in theory be in bother but the McEntee brand is strong in Meath and that will I think squeeze Doherty.

I know nothing about Charlie Flanagan's chances but he did lose his seat before and Laois and Offaly have a seat less this time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 15, 2020, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.

People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

I fundamentally disagree with this point. Foe example, the quickest way to reduce emissions in Nuclear but will the greens even consider that? No. So they have their own little ideology and I think that they will be the last people to make a real change. Look at the balls they made out of car tax (emissions vrs engine size vre 2008), what sort of f**k acting was that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 01:46:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

The idea that Varadkar won Johnson a landslide 80-seats majority is funny.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:14:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 15, 2020, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.

People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

I fundamentally disagree with this point. Foe example, the quickest way to reduce emissions in Nuclear but will the greens even consider that? No. So they have their own little ideology and I think that they will be the last people to make a real change. Look at the balls they made out of car tax (emissions vrs engine size vre 2008), what sort of f**k acting was that.

Can you work out why they'd be against it?

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: five points on January 15, 2020, 01:46:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

The idea that Varadkar won Johnson a landslide 80-seats majority is funny.

You clearly can't read.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:17:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: five points on January 15, 2020, 01:46:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

The idea that Varadkar won Johnson a landslide 80-seats majority is funny.

You clearly can't read.
I can. The idea that Johnson, with a groundswell of support behind him across the country, ever needed a 'lifeline' is funny too.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:20:43 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:14:59 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:35:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

I've been here almost as long as you sunshine.

England, and Wales. 2 countries.  8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 03:09:54 PM
Five points there is no point debating with most of the posters here...they are all globalists of the Labour London brand. Their poster boy in the upcoming election is Amadan O Riordain, naturally the last person I want to see win a seat.

On the Green Party....they do have genuine environmental issues....alas most of the global issues stem from shoddy practices in the likes of China and Asian countries where they have the sweat shops and pollute freely to produce goods for Western consumers.
However if you scratch under the surface of the Greens you find too many anomalies.
The Greens have pushed successfully with their bed fellows, An Taisce, to  get the peat powered stations closed in the midlands.  These stations were a lifeline to rural midlands communities providing solid jobs. The 12-15% of power these stations supplied to the national grid is lost....and what is it being replaced by? power from France, and that power is nuclear produced.  So the Greens want Peat stations closed and they will take the replacement from elsewhere and like real NIMBY's as long as the nuclear is not Irish, they will accept it.

The second big flaw in the Green case is attached to population and demographics. Obviously if you have a world population booming to record levels, especially rising to unprecedented levels in third world countries, then the extra bodies need more resources to be produced to fuel them and there is then extra demands on the environment. Now much of the population growth indirectly can be blamed on the advance in science, because medical advancement now translates to child/infant mortality rates reduced significantly and hence populations figures mushrooming.  Many of these poorer countries cannot sustain the level of population growth....in a cold way, one could reason the populations need to be capped......what is the Greens answer to this taxing issue?...not a dickie  bird about the record demographics, instead we have the Greens in the EU advancing their Globalist theory, that wealthy European countries should help out these poorer African/Asian nations and take in the excess, and with birth rates within European countries of the natives very low, the big game in town with the Greens is the great replacement.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 03:12:38 PM
Quote from: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:20:43 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:14:59 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.

That sounds like Fianna Fail in 2007. 
Climate change is already happening
Even the Murdoch family get it.

https://www.ft.com/content/e2311db0-36f6-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4
James Murdoch has criticised his father's news outlets for promoting false scepticism about climate change as deadly bushfires tear across Australia, the original home of Rupert Murdoch's news empire. In a pointed joint statement aiming to highlight their deep unhappiness with the coverage, James and his wife Kathryn took aim at conservative News Corp outlets in Australia for their "ongoing denial" of global warming.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 03:18:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 03:12:38 PM
Quote from: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:20:43 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:14:59 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.

That sounds like Fianna Fail in 2007. 

Fianna Fáil in 2007 pushed the climate scam for all that it was worth. That's why the Greens joined them in government. It didn't end well.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:20:43 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:14:59 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.

Perhaps you refer to the damage to the ozone layer that was repaired by the Montreal Protocol which phased out CFCs. Hardly an argument against concerted global action to save the environment.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 04:42:07 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 12:42:34 AM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.

Is Foxxkkk back?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 04:39:16 PM

Perhaps you refer to the damage to the ozone layer that was repaired by the Montreal Protocol which phased out CFCs. Hardly an argument against concerted global action to save the environment.

Millenarianism has been around a lot longer than the 1980s.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 04:52:46 PM
And...?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 04:54:36 PM
There's no point arguing with climate crisis deniers and racists. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: J70 on January 15, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

Syferus didn't come out with the type of mindless, right wing nonsense five points does.

More likely to be foxcommander. Similar style and all. Just needs the anti-black posts to cement it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 15, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

Syferus didn't come out with the type of mindless, right wing nonsense five points does.

More likely to be foxcommander. Similar style and all. Just needs the anti-black posts to cement it.

We'll see if he develops an obsession with me. That'll be a give-away.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: LooseCannon on January 15, 2020, 08:49:51 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 12:42:34 AM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.


Leahy, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

Ask any of the hurlers from the glory days what they think of him. It'd say a lot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 15, 2020, 09:21:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:14:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 15, 2020, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.

People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

I fundamentally disagree with this point. Foe example, the quickest way to reduce emissions in Nuclear but will the greens even consider that? No. So they have their own little ideology and I think that they will be the last people to make a real change. Look at the balls they made out of car tax (emissions vrs engine size vre 2008), what sort of f**k acting was that.

Can you work out why they'd be against it?

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

I never denied the science, I stated my opinion that greens have their own little ideology which includes refusing to switch to a clean proven technology like nuclear. It's not about being green, it's about being green their way. In addition they are totally city centric and have no clue of the reality of life outside the cities.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 05:01:52 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-parties-react-to-injury-of-homeless-man-in-dublin-1.4140360


Another confident prediction. Odran Flynn, psephologist (numbers nerd to me and you) has been on Pat Kenny's show on Newstalk predicting the Greens will win a seat in every Dublin constituency with the exception of Dublin North West. That would more or less tally with my own prediction. I have them winning seats in all Dublin constituencies, bar Dublin North West and Dublin Mid West. Former Green Paul Gogarty, now an Independent, has acted as a barrier there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 16, 2020, 09:52:51 AM
This election will be very interesting in terms of what it tells us about Irish society. FG's record on issue's such as health, housing and crime has been woeful and they are probably the most right wing Irish government that I can remember. Also more PR bull and spin doctoring than I care to remember. I hope that people vote with their conscience to correct the ills in society as a whole rather than simply thinking about their own pockets.

The alternative is FF who have their own recent history of overseeing the financial crash and running the economy into the ground. They have never really recovered from that and I think Micheal Martin is a particularly poor leader and it would be a huge leap of faith to put them back into government.

It looks like Hobsons choice in terms of which is the ruling party in government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2020, 10:38:28 AM
Exactly, the next Government will be led by either FF or FG (as had been in effect since 1922).
A higher proportion of well heeled and comfortable people vote. Those people will have Health insurance and their only interactions with the Public Health system will be if a family member needs to go to A&E.
So the health issue wont sway them.
Those who are parents of 20 somethings and live in cities/commuter belts will see the effects of the housing crisis and could be tempted to vote left of centre -if only we had a decent left of centre party.
The Greens probably see themselves as that Party but how many houses would they get built as they tilt at Climate windmills.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eire90 on January 16, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
People will vote for ff fg again and the shinners are a bunch of rats too.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 11:12:38 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 15, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

Syferus didn't come out with the type of mindless, right wing nonsense five points does.

More likely to be foxcommander. Similar style and all. Just needs the anti-black posts to cement it.

We'll see if he develops an obsession with me. That'll be a give-away.

I've been here longer than you and I've managed to more or less totally ignore your ramblings for almost a decade now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on January 16, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
People will vote for ff fg again and the shinners are a bunch of rats too.
FF and FG have no answers to healthcare, house prices or homelessness.
Business as usual doesn't work at the moment.
5% of people own 40% of everything.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 11:20:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on January 16, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
People will vote for ff fg again and the shinners are a bunch of rats too.
FF and FG have no answers to healthcare, house prices or homelessness.
Business as usual doesn't work at the moment.
5% of people own 40% of everything.

The political class including Labour, SF and the Greens and independents broadly agree with FF and FG on healthcare and the housing/homelessness disaster. That's why none will propose mass admin redundancies in the HSE for example or a huge private building programme to restore the housing stock relative to population that we had a decade ago.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2020, 11:52:02 AM
Private building is done by private builders who charge as much as they can get away with (naturally enough).
What's needed is a Public building programme (tendered to builders) on Public/NAMA lands of houses for sale at cost plus admin fee  and/or Tenant purchase scheme with rents set to cover the cost over 30 years.
Credit Unions have about €4 Bn lying around which theyd love to lend to the Stare/NAMA for 18 months to get the houses built.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 12:27:09 PM
At an optimistic unit cost of €250k per unit, 4 billion would build 16,000 houses, a drop in the ocean.

We need to get back to building at least 50,000 units a year.  I don't care who builds them, and no matter who does tradesmen, engineers and managers are going to charge top dollar anyway. Either way if the State takes on to do it, it is going to struggle to borrow the sort of money that is needed. That's why I suggest a private building programme.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 12:34:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

The old kulak fallacy. A young tech graduate with big borrowings and no arse in his trousers has a current and lifetime earnings capacity that dwarfs his country uncle living on a 100 acre farm with a paper value of a million euro. When he gets to 60, he'll own the uncle's farm, it'll still be worth a million on paper and won't be able to turn a cent in actual income.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 16, 2020, 01:36:36 PM
Quote from: five points on January 16, 2020, 12:27:09 PM
At an optimistic unit cost of €250k per unit, 4 billion would build 16,000 houses, a drop in the ocean.

We need to get back to building at least 50,000 units a year.  I don't care who builds them, and no matter who does tradesmen, engineers and managers are going to charge top dollar anyway. Either way if the State takes on to do it, it is going to struggle to borrow the sort of money that is needed. That's why I suggest a private building programme.

Who will build them? That is the question. What people forget is that after the last economic collapse (courtesy of FF and Greens and Irish banks), the building business died and many of the tradesmen if not most had to emigrate. As a country we also became anti-builder (thanks to many of the cowboys who were in the business, the poor planning by councillors and banks that would give a dog a mortgage if he walked in asking for one). We also are of course anti-landlord (which is a word with negative connotations in Ireland to begin with, but we talk of modern day landlords as if they are the English gentry with their foot on the neck of tenants). Contrast with a city like New York where builders/developers are minor celebrities, indeed one of them is President. They can be gobshites too. But they don't have to put up with the negativity that attaches to them in Ireland and both luxury and low income housing is developed at a rapid scale - throughout the whole country. If you want to solve the housing crisis - you actually got to be nice to the "creators." We are not but we expect buildings and housing to spring up in the same way some husbands expect clean socks to magically appear in his sock drawer every morning.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 01:48:58 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 01:54:05 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 16, 2020, 01:36:36 PM
Quote from: five points on January 16, 2020, 12:27:09 PM
At an optimistic unit cost of €250k per unit, 4 billion would build 16,000 houses, a drop in the ocean.

We need to get back to building at least 50,000 units a year.  I don't care who builds them, and no matter who does tradesmen, engineers and managers are going to charge top dollar anyway. Either way if the State takes on to do it, it is going to struggle to borrow the sort of money that is needed. That's why I suggest a private building programme.

Who will build them? That is the question. What people forget is that after the last economic collapse (courtesy of FF and Greens and Irish banks), the building business died and many of the tradesmen if not most had to emigrate. As a country we also became anti-builder (thanks to many of the cowboys who were in the business, the poor planning by councillors and banks that would give a dog a mortgage if he walked in asking for one). We also are of course anti-landlord (which is a word with negative connotations in Ireland to begin with, but we talk of modern day landlords as if they are the English gentry with their foot on the neck of tenants). Contrast with a city like New York where builders/developers are minor celebrities, indeed one of them is President. They can be gobshites too. But they don't have to put up with the negativity that attaches to them in Ireland and both luxury and low income housing is developed at a rapid scale - throughout the whole country. If you want to solve the housing crisis - you actually got to be nice to the "creators." We are not but we expect buildings and housing to spring up in the same way some husbands expect clean socks to magically appear in his sock drawer every morning.

You are of course correct. We are in a hole of our own making.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 03:59:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 01:48:58 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse.

The statistics are misleading.

The CSO figures state that 21% of the Irish population in 2018 was under 14 years old. They own nothing. Another 12% was between 15 and 24. Very few of them own anything.

So already 33% own nothing and the remaining 67% own everything.

Only 38% of Irish people are aged over 44. Most people don't have their mortgages paid off by age 44. That's 62% of the population.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 03:59:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 01:48:58 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse.

Its actually quite a large difference.

In the US, 5% of people own ~65% of everything.

Unless you think that ~25% wealth difference for that 4%of people in Ireland is insignificant?


Now, is it fair? Nope.
Does it need better distribution? Yep.
Are executives paid too much given their abilities? Absolutely.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 06:05:18 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 03:59:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 01:48:58 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse.

Its actually quite a large difference.

In the US, 5% of people own ~65% of everything.

Unless you think that ~25% wealth difference for that 4%of people in Ireland is insignificant?


Now, is it fair? Nope.
Does it need better distribution? Yep.
Are executives paid too much given their abilities? Absolutely.
It's one of the reasons RTÉ is in trouble
Demand is about the 100%
It's just not sustainable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: thejuice on January 18, 2020, 09:15:02 PM
Anyone know if Irish citizens abroad can do a postal vote. I've lived in England since 2003. Not entirely clear on the websites I've read but I'm sure you used to be able to do this.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tatler Jack on January 18, 2020, 09:22:54 PM
Quote from: thejuice on January 18, 2020, 09:15:02 PM
Anyone know if Irish citizens abroad can do a postal vote. I've lived in England since 2003. Not entirely clear on the websites I've read but I'm sure you used to be able to do this.

No. Irish people abroad cannot vote in elections unless they are registered to vote in Ireland and return to vote. There is no provision for postal voting.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on January 18, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
Quote from: Tatler Jack on January 18, 2020, 09:22:54 PM
Quote from: thejuice on January 18, 2020, 09:15:02 PM
Anyone know if Irish citizens abroad can do a postal vote. I've lived in England since 2003. Not entirely clear on the websites I've read but I'm sure you used to be able to do this.

No. Irish people abroad cannot vote in elections unless they are registered to vote in Ireland and return to vote. There is no provision for postal voting.

Most voters have to vote in person at an official voting centre. However, you may be eligible for a postal vote if you are:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 19, 2020, 09:12:00 AM
Anyone know any company's who could erect a tent at the Galway races for hospitality purposes?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:30:57 AM
My picture from the outside looking in is that Leo is generally good on EU, has got NI up and running again and has a logical view on how we move towards unity, and the economy is growing strongly, so tell me, what is at the heart of the election: homelessness; inequality; public services?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 19, 2020, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:30:57 AM
My picture from the outside looking in is that Leo is generally good on EU, has got NI up and running again and has a logical view on how we move towards unity, and the economy is growing strongly, so tell me, what is at the heart of the election: homelessness; inequality; public services?
Housing
Health
Childcare costs
Insurance costs
Jobs outside Dublin
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:44:45 AM
Thanks
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:53:23 AM
And gangs?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 19, 2020, 01:08:37 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:53:23 AM
And gangs?
Yeah. Has really come into focus this week.
All fueled by citizens putting white stuff up their noses
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 19, 2020, 01:27:03 PM
Latest poll which is the first carried out since December:

FF....................32%................+5
FG...................20%.................-7
SF...................19%..................-1
Green.............7%...................+1
Labour............4%...................-2
Ind Alliance.....3%...................+1
Other...............15%..................+3

That is some drop off for FG in the space of a month, their campaign has got off to a disastrous start. The Black and Tans episode, the homeless man getting hit by a forklift in a tent and the Drogheda feud will all have played a part. This particular government have relied a lot on spin doctoring and PR but people are starting to see through the bull and are judging them on their actual record on health, homelessness and crime which is brutal. I'm not surprised that FF are ahead in the polls but I am surprised at just how far because it is not down to Micheal Martin's leadership or direction but simply because FG have shot themselves in the foot and FF are seen as the only other viable alternative. Are people ready for another FF led government, it would be some form of redemption long before many people would have anticipated it a few years back. 

Both parties have already ruled out government with SF so really SF are just playing for how many seats they can gain whilst the continued decline of the Labour party is the other big talking point. 

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2020, 02:04:14 PM
I think that poll was done before the GE was called around the time of the RIC nonsense.
Hard to see the Shinners getting that percentage in a real election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 19, 2020, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 19, 2020, 01:27:03 PM
Latest poll which is the first carried out since December:

FF....................32%................+5
FG...................20%.................-7
SF...................19%..................-1
Green.............7%...................+1
Labour............4%...................-2
Ind Alliance.....3%...................+1
Other...............15%..................+3

That is some drop off for FG in the space of a month, their campaign has got off to a disastrous start. The Black and Tans episode, the homeless man getting hit by a forklift in a tent and the Drogheda feud will all have played a part. This particular government have relied a lot on spin doctoring and PR but people are starting to see through the bull and are judging them on their actual record on health, homelessness and crime which is brutal. I'm not surprised that FF are ahead in the polls but I am surprised at just how far because it is not down to Micheal Martin's leadership or direction but simply because FG have shot themselves in the foot and FF are seen as the only other viable alternative. Are people ready for another FF led government, it would be some form of redemption long before many people would have anticipated it a few years back. 

Both parties have already ruled out government with SF so really SF are just playing for how many seats they can gain whilst the continued decline of the Labour party is the other big talking point.

What's the difference between FF/FG - same side of the same coin in terms of policies.

Homelessness - FG/FF mess.
Health- FG/FF mess.
Gangland warfare - FG/FF mess.
No policy on the environment - FG/FG mess.

Can't get any worse...oh, let's commemorate the Black & Tans!!!

Keep adding to the list.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 19, 2020, 02:57:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 19, 2020, 02:33:48 PM
I think that poll was done before the GE was called around the time of the RIC nonsense.
Hard to see the Shinners getting that percentage in a real election.

Well if that is the case then it's hard to see how FG will have clawed back any support since then, one faux pas after another. Leo does not look comfortable out meeting the general public unless it is a stage managed event with his own supporters present. If FG manage to lose this election then I reckon Simon Coveney will be waiting in the wings to take over. If FF lose it then Micheal Martin has to go, so the stakes are high. Don't think SF will poll at 19% either, the other parties will have plenty of ammunition on them which will be unleashed as the campaign goes on and things get dirtier.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2020, 04:17:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 19, 2020, 01:27:03 PM
Latest poll which is the first carried out since December:

FF....................32%................+5
FG...................20%.................-7
SF...................19%..................-1
Green.............7%...................+1
Labour............4%...................-2
Ind Alliance.....3%...................+1
Other...............15%..................+3

That is some drop off for FG in the space of a month, their campaign has got off to a disastrous start. The Black and Tans episode, the homeless man getting hit by a forklift in a tent and the Drogheda feud will all have played a part. This particular government have relied a lot on spin doctoring and PR but people are starting to see through the bull and are judging them on their actual record on health, homelessness and crime which is brutal. I'm not surprised that FF are ahead in the polls but I am surprised at just how far because it is not down to Micheal Martin's leadership or direction but simply because FG have shot themselves in the foot and FF are seen as the only other viable alternative. Are people ready for another FF led government, it would be some form of redemption long before many people would have anticipated it a few years back. 

Both parties have already ruled out government with SF so really SF are just playing for how many seats they can gain whilst the continued decline of the Labour party is the other big talking point.

Agree Michael Martin is one of the most spineless politicians I've ever come across and is not a leader by any stretch of the imagination. I dont agree on SF just going to win seats as coalition is ruled out - that will never be known until we see how the cards fall after the election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 19, 2020, 05:56:24 PM
On that poll Fianna Fáil will easily lead next government. But I would not trust if it was done over phone or in-person as during height of Tans controversy, people would be downright embarrassed about saying they were supporting Fine Gael, but the same people who had record money to spend over Christmas in the privacy of polling booth will be mé fein. That is how American pollsters had Hilary so far ahead and got shock of lives when Trump got elected. Would still expect FG to fare badly but it is hard to see people give such a resounding victory to FF. Poor reflection on Mary Lou that they can't make hay of anti government sentiment.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 19, 2020, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 19, 2020, 05:56:24 PM
Poor reflection on Mary Lou that they can't make hay of anti government sentiment.

SF only aim to attract votes from people with the chip on their shoulder, who think that the government is someone else doing something to them. For all their "republicanism" they haven't really bought into the idea that everyone has to contribute to the Republic as well as expecting something from it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 19, 2020, 08:50:04 PM
Mary Lou is not liked by most floating voters down here
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 19, 2020, 09:07:16 PM
If you want to vote left wing in ireland just vote Labour. Why vote for SF? A party of thugs and loonies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2020, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 19, 2020, 09:07:16 PM
If you want to vote left wing in ireland just vote Labour. Why vote for SF? A party of thugs and loonies.

Labour left wing. You know nothing if you think that lsd.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 19, 2020, 10:38:38 PM
From my own vox pop, Fine Gael are in trouble. They were elected back in 2011 on the specific premise that they would tidy up the mess left by Fianna Fail and bring probity etc. back into government again.
They have failed miserably and many people have long memories.
Remember the water rates fiasco back in 2014. (I think it was 2014.)
A tsunami pf shite would submerge the country if we didn't all, like honest citizens, pony up and make Denis Desmond an ever richer man than he already was.
The ferocity of the popular backlash made them back off and , surprise, surprise, we have heard nothing since then about the urgent need for reform of our water supply and wastewater disposal. I am surprised at the number of people who feel sore about this attempted scam.
The €2.2 bn overrun in building the children's' hospital and the fact that nothing was done to find out who was guilty of this hasn't gone down well either.
Health, housing, homelessness and Harris were brought up by many I spoke to and the three Murphys came in for a lot of abuse also. If all that wasn't enough, the way Flanagan and Varadker tried to arrange a commemoration for the RIC was the last straw.
Personally speaking, I won't be voting FG but I haven't forgiven FF for what they did to the country either.
Martin is about as capable as Varadker and if he becomes Taoiseah, it will only be because he is slightly the lesser of two eejits.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2020, 11:08:42 PM
Either Leo or Micheál will be the next Taoiseach.
About the only question is will it be a Coalition or a Confidence/Supply thingy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 19, 2020, 11:53:07 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 19, 2020, 10:38:38 PM
the ferocity of the popular backlash made them back off and , surprise, surprise, we have heard nothing since then about the urgent need for reform of our water supply and wastewater disposal. I am surprised at the number of people who feel sore about this attempted scam.

The water and wastewater still needs investment, but the pay nothing brigade reckon water falls for free so investing in it has not been a priority.
Quote
The €2.2 bn overrun in building the children's' hospital and the fact that nothing was done to find out who was guilty of this hasn't gone down well either.

Nobody is ever responsible in such cases.

Health, housing, homelessness and Harris were brought up by many I spoke to and the three Murphys came in for a lot of abuse also.

The 3 Murphys sounds like a comedy act, which is appropriate.

QuotePersonally speaking, I won't be voting FG but I haven't forgiven FF for what they did to the country either.
Martin is about as capable as Varadker and if he becomes Taoiseah, it will only be because he is slightly the lesser of two eejits.

I've come the conclusion that these people only try a bit at the start so all you can do is switch them around. It is a bit like house insurance, if you switch insurer from time to time then they give you better quotes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 20, 2020, 08:58:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 19, 2020, 11:08:42 PM
Either Leo or Micheál will be the next Taoiseach.
About the only question is will it be a Coalition or a Confidence/Supply thingy.

Sadly a depressing truth. As a nation we're institutionalised and addicted  to the FF/FG Punch and Judy show. Long past time we woke up and tried something different. It mightn't work either but you never know - it just might be better.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 20, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
My thinking on FF and FG is this

1) Varadker is a way more intelligent and astute politician than Martin. At least he says what he thinks even if i so not agree with many things he says. Martin has no opinion on anything and just wants to check which way the wind blows before deciding. He is ball-less.

2) Fine Gael politicians are on average more competent than their Fianna Fail counterparts.

3) I do not like FG idelogy at all and while I dont like FF much either, i would be closer to them than FG.

So basically, I will vote SF No 1 and I am really struggling after that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 20, 2020, 01:10:19 PM
1) Varadkar opposed gay marriage and abortion when it was popular and profitable to do so. He is no better or worse than Micheal Martin.

2) The likes of Eoghan Murphy, Simon Harris, Richard Bruton and Regina Doherty are poor ads for the theory that Fine Gael politicians are on average more competent than anyone else.

3) Neither FG nor FF have any real ideology. See 1).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 20, 2020, 01:11:48 PM
It'll be interesting to see how the odds move in the run-up to election day. At the moment, next Taoiseach is:

Martin 1/5
Varadker 3/1

Next government (need to have a Cabinet Minister to be part of the government, for the purposes of these odds:)

Fianna Fail/Green 6/1

FF/SD/Lab/Green 6/1

Fianna Fail/Independents 8/1

FG/Lab/SD/Green 10/1

FF/Green/Independents 10/1

FF/Lab/Green/Independents 11/1

FF/Lab/Green 12/1

Fine Gael/Fianna Fail 12/1

Fianna Fail/Sinn Fein 12/1

Fine Gael/Green 12/1

Fianna Fail Minority 14/1

FG/Green/Independents 14/1

Fine Gael/Independents 16/1

Fine Gael/Sinn Fein 18/1

Fianna Fail Majority 20/1

Fine Gael Minority 20/1

Fianna Fail/Labour 20/1

FG/Lab/Green/Independents 22/1

FG/Lab/Green 22/1

FF/Lab/Independents 22/1

Fine Gael/Labour 25/1



If I was to put a bet on where I think there's some value, I'd go with FG/Green or FG/Green/Independents
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 20, 2020, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2020, 11:53:07 PM
The water and wastewater still needs investment, but the pay nothing brigade reckon water falls for free so investing in it has not been a priority.
Yep. Of course, the Greens were one of the strongest supporters of water charges.
Interesting that some of the strongest anti-water charge brigade feel the Greens are the best.
But they may change their mind again when the Greens bring in their new taxes. But as you call them, "the pay nothing brigade" always seem to assume that someone else should pay it for them.


Quote from: five points on January 20, 2020, 01:10:19 PM
1) Varadkar opposed gay marriage and abortion when it was popular and profitable to do so. He is no better or worse than Micheal Martin.

Never heard that before.
Can you provide a link to substantiate (presumably you didn't just fabricate it) ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 20, 2020, 01:28:00 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 20, 2020, 01:20:53 PM
Never heard that before.
Can you provide a link to substantiate (presumably you didn't just fabricate it) ?

Really? Both are well known. Why you'd suggest that I might fabricate this is beyond me.

"I consider myself to be pro-life in that I accept that the unborn child is a human life with rights. I cannot, therefore, accept the view that it is a simple matter of choice. There are two lives involved in any pregnancy. For that reason, like most people in the country, I do not support abortion on request or on demand."
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/leo-varadkar-s-shifting-view-on-abortion-will-be-key-to-campaign-1.3351288

"The question of adoption is ignored in this Bill because it is contentious. Sooner or later, it will have to be addressed. Every child has a father and a mother. Two men or two women cannot have a child together. A single person cannot have a child on their own unless they procure the pre-products of conception from an alternative source. This is an undeniable fact. [412] Unfortunately, sometimes in children's lives one of the parents is not interested in them or dies. Where a child is an orphan, the State should replace their mother and father. Every child has the right to a mother and father and, as much as is possible, the State should vindicate that right. That is a much more important right than that of two men or women having a family. That is the principle that should underline our laws regarding children and adoption. I am also uncomfortable about adoption by single people regardless of their sexual orientation. I do not believe I as a single man should adopt a child. The child should go to parents, a mother and father, to replace what the child had before."

https://ionainstitute.ie/what-leo-varadkar-said-about-the-right-to-a-mother-and-a-father-in-full/

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 20, 2020, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 20, 2020, 08:58:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 19, 2020, 11:08:42 PM
Either Leo or Micheál will be the next Taoiseach.
About the only question is will it be a Coalition or a Confidence/Supply thingy.

Sadly a depressing truth. As a nation we're institutionalised and addicted  to the FF/FG Punch and Judy show. Long past time we woke up and tried something different. It mightn't work either but you never know - it just might be better.
I'd love to think so too, Seanie, but I can't see it ever happening. This is a democracy so the TDs are elected by the people. Voters tend to vote for those who best mirror their own interests and opinions, if you know what I mean.
TDs reflect the values of those who elect them in simple English. So, if you don't have an electorate that is, in the main, opposed to the use of brown envelopes and underhand horsetrading, it's highly unlikely that that these they elect will prove to be any more honest or diligent.
It's hard to accept it but FF/FG rule the proverbial roost because they are the preferred choice of a huge swathe of the general public.
Ironically, probably 95% of the electorate would feel offended if you pointed out this obvious truth to them!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 20, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: five points on January 20, 2020, 01:10:19 PM
1) Varadkar opposed gay marriage and abortion when it was popular and profitable to do so. He is no better or worse than Micheal Martin.

2) The likes of Eoghan Murphy, Simon Harris, Richard Bruton and Regina Doherty are poor ads for the theory that Fine Gael politicians are on average more competent than anyone else.

3) Neither FG nor FF have any real ideology. See 1).

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. All I say is that I dislike both men and parties - but I have to decide where my No 2, 3, 4 go and thats what I was alluding to.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 20, 2020, 02:52:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 20, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. All I say is that I dislike both men and parties - but I have to decide where my No 2, 3, 4 go and thats what I was alluding to.

Exactly. And that's why I haven't questioned your choice of where your vote goes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 20, 2020, 04:19:49 PM
Looks like I'll be voting Fitzmaurice and Naughten 1 and 2.
After that I don't know as I swore never to vote FF again after 2007, FG have been awful on the 2 main crises affecting people (Housing and Health), and apart from a Green candidate I'd be wasting my vote on the rest. Mind you voting Green round here would also be a waste.
FG have someone I never heard of from Galway while FF have hopped Orla Leyden in for gender balance and presumably to dump Eugene Murphy.
Be great if we could get 3 Independents in.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 20, 2020, 10:21:05 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 20, 2020, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2020, 11:53:07 PM
The water and wastewater still needs investment, but the pay nothing brigade reckon water falls for free so investing in it has not been a priority.
Yep. Of course, the Greens were one of the strongest supporters of water charges.
Interesting that some of the strongest anti-water charge brigade feel the Greens are the best.
But they may change their mind again when the Greens bring in their new taxes. But as you call them, "the pay nothing brigade" always seem to assume that someone else should pay it for them.

any sane person could see that water charges are necessary!! there are idiots out wasting water every day of the week
the greens were in favour of full state ownership, proper water allowances, water storage tanks for all new one off builds (quite sensible if you ask me) whereas FG wanted the private sector to get their slice.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 20, 2020, 10:44:55 PM
Latest Poll out tonight:

Fianna Fáil 25 (~)
Fine Gael 23 (-6)
Sinn Fein 21 (+7)
Green Party 8 (~)
Labour 5 (-1)
Ind/Other 18 (~)

Polls are rarely accurate but two in a row now show a significant surge for SF. When the latest poll shows just four 8 points separating the top 3 parties, and a 13 point gap between the top 3 and the best of the rest, it makes the decisions by RTÉ and Virgin to exclude SF from their first debates all the more ridiculous and hard to justify.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 20, 2020, 11:02:38 PM
Presumably the decision is based on the small percentage of the vote they got in the Locals and Euros real elections plus Maryloo is not going to be the next Taoiseach.
Then again a SF/Green/SDP/Labour Coalition might just be what the State needs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 20, 2020, 11:33:19 PM
They'll always come up with ways to justify their decision but when two polls indicate that three parties are closely tied, then the decision to exclude one of them will appear to many people to be another example of the state funded, public service broadcaster, breaching it's own rules on impartiality. It isn't for RTÉ to decide who will be the next taoiseach, but they leave themselves wide open to the charge of trying to unduly influence who it will be.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 08:58:58 AM
In the real World i.e Local and Euro elections 2019 Shinners got 9.5% and 11.7% of the 1st Preference Vote.
Did half them stay at home or what?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 09:47:38 AM
This is the real world. And I've already stayed that polls are rarely accurate, but when two polls show a tight contest between three parties that are far and away ahead of the rest, then rightly or wrongly, RTÉ leave themselves wide open to the charge facing them by excluding one of them.

I personally don't agree with debates that exclude any party leaders by a broadcaster that claims to impose a rule of strict impartiality upon itself, but if they are going to have such debates, and the latest research shows three parties are way ahead of the rest, then they should surely reflect that.

As I say, it's not RTÉ's job to decide who will be the next Taoiseach, but there will only ever be a choice of two when the main media outlets persist in embedding the notion in peoples head that that is the reality.

Yesterday I listened to a podcast from Today FM from the day the election was called. Their political correspondent outlined that peoples choices were FF or FG, and to use his exact words "or then you have this weird grouping of centre left parties, the Social Democrats, the Greens, Labour". Not a single mention of SF at any stage in the discussion, and the other parties outside of FF/FG  described as "weird". Thats the message that is being subliminally/overtly delivered to people; 'Your choice is FF or FG. Don't be thinking of anything else.'

The fact that FF and FG have been in bed together for the past four years I suspect means more people are now accepting that policy wise, you couldn't get a cigarette paper between them, and a real and useful and democratic debate cannot happen when SF as the next biggest party, are barred from participation.

Interestingly, a former head of TV at RTÉ tweeted last night "As a former Director of TV at RTÉ, I would expect, given the party's showing in these 2 polls, that Sinn Féin would be added to the Leaders' Debates." And followed it up by saying "I believe that a party with a 20% poll should be included. Let them all be questioned on a public platform together. Fair."

It's hardly a big ask and more importantly, hardly an undemocratic one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 21, 2020, 10:10:44 AM
The irony is that if SF were included in the debate then it would probably damage them in the election, since both the main parties have plenty of ammunition to attack them on. There may be a certain element of Official Ireland protecting it's own self interest by excluding them and making it a duel between FG/FF but it also suits the SF narrative being a party of protest to be able to cry foul.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 21, 2020, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue, while Pearse Doherty has impressed on the insurance rip off. His campaigning on pension ages seems to be striking a chord too. There are crises in housing and homelessness that people are angry about, and on top of that, for the first time FG and FG have been jointly responsible for this as partners in power and there is an anger there. So as you say, if people vote again for FF or FG, maybe they do deserve what they get.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 21, 2020, 11:23:33 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue, while Pearse Doherty has impressed on the insurance rip off. His campaigning on pension ages seems to be striking a chord too. There are crises in housing and homelessness that people are angry about, and on top of that, for the first time FG and FG have been jointly responsible for this as partners in power and there is an anger there. So as you say, if people vote again for FF or FG, maybe they do deserve what they get.

The anti-Brit rhetoric over Brexit is set to bite FG & FF in the ass. As is the extra fiver a week every year to OAPs, which is necessitating the rise in the OAP pension age. SF have made hay on both.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 21, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue

Not much good when action is required as proven when they controlled Dublin City Council. The O'Devanney Gardens fiasco originally signed off by SF shows the nonsense of signing off on social/affordable housing without any clue how it was going to be funded. SF do need to be on debate so these types of issues can be raised, instead of getting a free ride as hurlers on the ditch.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 12:22:19 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue, while Pearse Doherty has impressed on the insurance rip off. His campaigning on pension ages seems to be striking a chord too. There are crises in housing and homelessness that people are angry about, and on top of that, for the first time FG and FG have been jointly responsible for this as partners in power and there is an anger there. So as you say, if people vote again for FF or FG, maybe they do deserve what they get.

I am just relaying what a lot of "experts" are saying, if the gains are for genuine political reasons fair enough, the 2 lads you have mentioned are the best SF have, but the talent isn't there after that to push any real political or economic change.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 21, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue

Not much good when action is required as proven when they controlled Dublin City Council. The O'Devanney Gardens fiasco originally signed off by SF shows the nonsense of signing off on social/affordable housing without any clue how it was going to be funded. SF do need to be on debate so these types of issues can be raised, instead of getting a free ride as hurlers on the ditch.

SF are bleeding the North dry along with DUP due to total economic ineptitude.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Agreed. But a UI isnt a SF idea. It is aspired to by all nationalist parties on the island, its their view of timing that is different
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Okay I agree with you on that - probably wasn't clear but I also agree this is not a SF only thing and would be a failure if it was.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 02:25:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 21, 2020, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Would you have the more recent and relevant...2019 figures?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 21, 2020, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 02:25:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 21, 2020, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Would you have the more recent and relevant...2019 figures?
Roscommon 7.4%
Galway Co 4.8%
Galway City 5.4%
Mayo 7.4%
Sligo 8.2%
Leitrim 17.2%
Donegal 19.4%
Cavan 12.4%
Monaghan 34.4%
Longford 4.6%
Westmeath 5.8%
Offaly 4.6%
Laois 11.1%
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 21, 2020, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 02:25:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 21, 2020, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Would you have the more recent and relevant...2019 figures?

How about breaking the habit of a lifetime and admitting you were wrong for once? 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:30:02 AM
How about reading your fellow Sligoman's post.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 22, 2020, 03:05:39 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

The bank guarantee was not the EU's bright idea.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 22, 2020, 03:08:01 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Agreed. But a UI isnt a SF idea. It is aspired to by all nationalist parties on the island, its their view of timing that is different

Indeed. To listen to some Shinners, you'd think that anyone who wants anything short of a UI by midnight tonight is some sort of west-brit, bootlicking, pope-kicking unionist.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 12:00:22 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You've used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 22, 2020, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 22, 2020, 03:05:39 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

The bank guarantee was not the EU's bright idea.

Apples and oranges.

The bank guarantee guaranteed deposits.

The EU insisted we pay bondholders and interbank debt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 22, 2020, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-slashes-funding-for-bosnia/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 12:47:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:30:02 AM
How about reading your fellow Sligoman's post.

I did read it. Clearly you didn't or you don't understand what you typed yourself.

QuoteDoubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 01:16:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.

It's not hair splitting. Your statement was 100%, clearly incorrect. SF got 13% across Midlands-North West last year in the Euro election. That's actually closer to 20% than your completely laughable less than 5%.

Admit you fcuked up.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 01:20:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.

The problem there is that "the 20% being bandied about" (or to reword that for you: the 20-21% findings from the two most recent opinion polls), was a 26 county figure and not a figure restricted to "Western or Midland constituencies" as you were basing your remarks on. You said they would struggle to reach 5% in in "most of" those western & midland constituencies.

The evidence posted directly and comprehensively discredits your claim. That isn't a matter of discussion or debate. The figures are there. When you're wrong and the evidence to show it is presented for everyone to see, ffs have it in you to admit it lol
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 22, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 12:00:22 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You've used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 02:51:49 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 20, 2020, 04:19:49 PM
Looks like I'll be voting Fitzmaurice and Naughten 1 and 2.
After that I don't know as I swore never to vote FF again after 2007, FG have been awful on the 2 main crises affecting people (Housing and Health), and apart from a Green candidate I'd be wasting my vote on the rest. Mind you voting Green round here would also be a waste.
FG have someone I never heard of from Galway while FF have hopped Orla Leyden in for gender balance and presumably to dump Eugene Murphy.
Be great if we could get 3 Independents in.

And what if there was an actual 2 party coalition, the independents would be useless in that instance.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 22, 2020, 03:49:25 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 02:51:49 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 20, 2020, 04:19:49 PM
Looks like I'll be voting Fitzmaurice and Naughten 1 and 2.
After that I don't know as I swore never to vote FF again after 2007, FG have been awful on the 2 main crises affecting people (Housing and Health), and apart from a Green candidate I'd be wasting my vote on the rest. Mind you voting Green round here would also be a waste.
FG have someone I never heard of from Galway while FF have hopped Orla Leyden in for gender balance and presumably to dump Eugene Murphy.
Be great if we could get 3 Independents in.

And what if there was an actual 2 party coalition, the independents would be useless in that instance.
I'm all for voting for Independents, where I think they are good, in local and European elections. They can certainly make a difference at local level and they can contribute as much as anyone at EU level (which isn't a whole heap for any Irish MEP, but that's a different thread..)

But Independents are largely useless when it comes to running the country, and when needed for a government often hold the country to ransom based on local/single issues.

If what they stand for is truly worthy of support based on national issues, surely there should be enough of like-mind to form a party, or at least a grouping, and bring about an actual alternative.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:04:31 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 01:16:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.

It's not hair splitting. Your statement was 100%, clearly incorrect. SF got 13% across Midlands-North West last year in the Euro election. That's actually closer to 20% than your completely laughable less than 5%.

Admit you fcuked up.
I said MOST Western and Midlands.
Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan are not West or Midlands.
Including Leitrim and Laois gives you around 7%.
Excluding those 2 double figures percentages gives you around 6%.
We Connacht people usually speak in broad indicative terms and leave the narrow literal interpretations to Northerners and Solicitors ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:23:10 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:04:31 PM
I said MOST Western and Midlands.
Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan are not West or Midlands.
Including Leitrim and Laois gives you around 7%.
Excluding those 2 double figures percentages gives you around 6%.
We Connacht people usually speak in broad indicative terms and leave the narrow literal interpretations to Northerners and Solicitors ;)

Wow. That's some mental gymnastics! So basically you were right so long as everyone else accepts that:

1. Donegal (a county on the west coast) is not in the west, so must be excluded
2. Cavan and Monaghan (both landlocked counties) are not midland counties, so must be excluded
3. Leitrim & Laois can be excluded solely because SF's results there are far higher than suits your argument

Any other straws you can clutch to or is that it?


Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:04:31 PM
I said MOST Western and Midlands.

Indeed you did. And even if we indulged your staggering mental gymnastics above and removed all the constituencies you asked us to remove, then most of the rest STILL had SF at over 5% going by the 2019 figures:

Roscommon 7.4%
Galway Co 4.8%
Galway City 5.4%
Mayo 7.4%
Sligo 8.2%

Longford 4.6%
Westmeath 5.8%
Offaly 4.6%


Wouldn't it just be easier to say, 'ok fair enough, I was wrong'?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on January 22, 2020, 04:30:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Again?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 04:31:52 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 22, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 12:00:22 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You've used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you.

Plenty of people work their bollocks off for significanly less than €80k.

You sound like a Tatcherite.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:35:38 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 22, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 12:00:22 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You've used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you.

I'm not a Shinner, but the UK will be paying their way in regards to reunification. That's not even up for discussion. They will obligations that they will simply have to meet. But if Unionists have a long road to travel many those comments show many Republicans and Nationalists have an even longer one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:23:10 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:04:31 PM
I said MOST Western and Midlands.
Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan are not West or Midlands.
Including Leitrim and Laois gives you around 7%.
Excluding those 2 double figures percentages gives you around 6%.
We Connacht people usually speak in broad indicative terms and leave the narrow literal interpretations to Northerners and Solicitors ;)

Wow. That's some mental gymnastics! So basically you were right so long as everyone else accepts that:

1. Donegal (a county on the west coast) is not in the west, so must be excluded
2. Cavan and Monaghan (both landlocked counties) are not midland counties, so must be excluded
3. Leitrim & Laois can be excluded solely because SF's results there are far higher than suits your argument

Any other straws you can clutch to or is that it?


Quote from: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:04:31 PM
I said MOST Western and Midlands.

Indeed you did. And even if we indulged you staggering mental gymnastics above, and removed all the constituencies you asked up to remove), then most of the rest STILL had SF at over 5% going by the 2019 figures:

Roscommon 7.4%
Galway Co 4.8%
Galway City 5.4%
Mayo 7.4%
Sligo 8.2%

Longford 4.6%
Westmeath 5.8%
Offaly 4.6%


Wouldn't it just be easier to say, 'ok fair enough, I was wrong'?

It would have been.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:49:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:51:12 PM
Galway County, Offaly, Longford..
"Doubtful if SF would get more than 5% in most Western or Midland Constituencies"
My conditional prediction may or may not prove accurate as time will tell.
Antway if we're to have a Left leaning Government SF need to do the improbable and get nearly all their 40 or 41 candidates elected and need 39/40 left leaning TDs to support them.
A long long shot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:49:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 22, 2020, 06:10:54 PM
An FF/FG/FFS grand coalition is looking likely.
A bit more formal than the existing confidence and supply arrangement.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 22, 2020, 06:48:41 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:49:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 06:50:59 PM
Opinion poll a few days ago (Irish Times) gave progressive parties 38% (SF 21, Green 8, Lab 5, SD 2, AAA-PBP 2), Conservatives 48% (FF 25 FG 23). Independents 14%. That's a comparative that shouldn't be ignored.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 22, 2020, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 04:31:52 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 22, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 12:00:22 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You've used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you.

Plenty of people work their bollocks off for significanly less than €80k.

You sound like a Tatcherite.

Where did I say otherwise?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 22, 2020, 08:36:18 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 06:50:59 PM
Opinion poll a few days ago (Irish Times) gave progressive parties 38% (SF 21, Green 8, Lab 5, SD 2, AAA-PBP 2), Conservatives 48% (FF 25 FG 23). Independents 14%. That's a comparative that shouldn't be ignored.
That seems about right and you can be sure the spin doctors in both of the big parties are fully aware of this as well. However, in all likelihood, polls like this one tend to underestimate the support FF/FG will get at the ballot box and, conversely, the minnows are likely to get less.
THe big two have a degree of organisation in every constituency in the land that no other party can match. THey have more canvassers to knock on doors, handout flyers and hang posters. ON election day, they will have cars to bring elderly/infirm voters to the centres.
Apart from all that, only the big two will have someone standing in every constituency in the country. The minnows and this includes SF have nowhere near as many candidates standing so their % vote can be misleading.
For instance the Greens in the above poll register 8%.
But 8% is their countrywide average and they won't be fielding candidates in every constituency so what they get in Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown or Dublin South or wherever, will need to be considerably more than 8% if they are to win a seat.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 22, 2020, 06:48:41 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:49:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.

If they both do okish they will continue the confidence and supply. But if Fine Gael take a bad beating, they will go into opposition to lick their wounds (as they should, and would be the smarter move for them). In which case, FF and SF will come under pressure to form a government, especially if they are the two parties with the momentum.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 08:56:09 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 22, 2020, 06:48:41 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:49:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.

If they both do okish they will continue the confidence and supply. But if Fine Gael take a bad beating, they will go into opposition to lick their wounds (as they should, and would be the smarter move for them). In which case, FF and SF will come under pressure to form a government, especially if they are the two parties with the momentum.

Maybe if someone such as Ó Cuiv was FF leader that would be possible. Cannot see FF/SF coalition under Martin. Also,SF would be betraying their own voters if that happened too in my opinion.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 09:23:07 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 08:56:09 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 22, 2020, 06:48:41 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 22, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:49:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.

If they both do okish they will continue the confidence and supply. But if Fine Gael take a bad beating, they will go into opposition to lick their wounds (as they should, and would be the smarter move for them). In which case, FF and SF will come under pressure to form a government, especially if they are the two parties with the momentum.

Maybe if someone such as Ó Cuiv was FF leader that would be possible. Cannot see FF/SF coalition under Martin. Also,SF would be betraying their own voters if that happened too in my opinion.

But unlike last time, they have announced they are prepared to go into coalition. Granted Mary Lou has moved the goalposts slightly in that she has demanded a border poll as part of going into coalition. But that can only be granted by UK Secretary of State, so I can't see what Martin could do about that other than meekly ask. I think the outcome of this election will force parties into making decisions on whether they put party or country first. It will be interesting.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!

Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 10:46:47 PM
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

FF are absolutely reprehensible and Martin makes my skin crawl.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

Is that a 'tender' then...lol.  Slippery FF/FG lecturing anybody on economics is quite ironic.  They decimated rural Ireland by their cost cutting - post offices closed all over the place.  Rural crime rampant and what do they do....they close more garda stations.

Approx 8 years to try and solve the housing and health issues and no inroads has been make on it.

Time to go - time for change!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 11:30:43 PM
Irish Free State was abolished in 1937.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 11:32:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

+1. Probably voting SF after that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 22, 2020, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 23, 2020, 12:06:48 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 22, 2020, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.

Is it not a bit obscene that Pat Kenny provided both Leo and Micheal with an opportunity to tear into Sinn Féin when SF weren't allowed to be there to defend themselves? Surely this is fundamentally wrong?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 23, 2020, 08:55:01 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 23, 2020, 12:06:48 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 22, 2020, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.

Is it not a bit obscene that Pat Kenny provided both Leo and Micheal with an opportunity to tear into Sinn Féin when SF weren't allowed to be there to defend themselves? Surely this is fundamentally wrong?

That's the establishment for you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 09:40:26 AM
The absolute hypocrisy of Vardaker and Martin in relation to a SF coalition is breathtaking, almost a quarter of a century since the cease fire and they are still peddling this partitionist nonsense that is insulting to the vast majority of nationalists in the North and a good slice of the southern electorate. SF may well have men in dark rooms dictating policy but FF and FG have also unelected developers, bankers and businesses exerting similar influence. I would not agree with all SF's economic policies but their broad thrust on housing and social justice could lead to a fairer society. The SDLP if they had any balls would call out this partitionist bullshit, but given that their only policy starts with a but SF... that's unlikely.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 10:11:45 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 09:40:26 AM
The absolute hypocrisy of Vardaker and Martin in relation to a SF coalition is breathtaking, almost a quarter of a century since the cease fire and they are still peddling this partitionist nonsense that is insulting to the vast majority of nationalists in the North and a good slice of the southern electorate. SF may well have men in dark rooms dictating policy but FF and FG have also unelected developers, bankers and businesses exerting similar influence. I would not agree with all SF's economic policies but their broad thrust on housing and social justice could lead to a fairer society. The SDLP if they had any balls would call out this partitionist bullshit, but given that their only policy starts with a but SF... that's unlikely.

It's a perfect storm for SF I think. They exposed their rank hypocrisy and Mary Lou didn't have to be there to defend SF.

I'd have a few concerns about SF myself but my hope is for a left alliance of SF/Green/Lab/SD/PbP so we can get on with addressing the really pressing issues of climate, income inequality, housing, healthcare and the jobs timebomb approaching before it's too late. FF and FG will not address any of these issues. They'll keep serving the wealthy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 23, 2020, 10:23:11 AM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 10:24:36 AM
Why not?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that's an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O'Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That's a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that's an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O'Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That's a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Problem is developers are back fleecing people on the housing market. Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 23, 2020, 12:08:17 PM
I'd give Leo the nod for his performance last night but only because he was there for the taking. Michéal had his past as a FF minister to to defend so he was going ltg to get some flak over this but he was out of office for eight years and Leo's failings are in here here and now so I felt he'd be more vulnerable to accusations of incompetence than Martin before the gig began.
Varadker survived and I'd mark that down as a plus.
I think the FG spin doctors had done a better job of batin' a bit of gravitas and pseudo sincerity and humility into their man than their counterparts did with their man.
I think Martin hadn't expected Leo to stand up to him and thought that by highlighting the government's failings, Leo would be there for the taking.
In the event, Leo survived albeit with a few proverbial kicks up the ass. He can feel slightly more relieved by his performance than Michéal can with his.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 12:16:03 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 12:27:45 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that's an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O'Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That's a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Problem is developers are back fleecing people on the housing market. Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.
Until there's enough supply to meet demand, developers will fleece people wherever they can. The fact that there's damn all housebuilding outside the larger cities, and not enough within them, suggests it's not that attractive a proposition in most cases.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that's an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O'Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That's a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.

If you build those social houses you'll generate rent from those who take them up. Unlike say rolling out broadband everywhere costing billions and not actually owning it after that. Just because it's not free market economics doesn't mean it doesn't add up or make sense. We need to look at countries where solutions are working - Finland a great example. The only country in the EU where homelessness is decreasing and in fact it's almost eliminated. They come up with solutions based on needs because they're capable of independent thought. We're very much at the "four legs good, two legs bad" level of analysis unfortunately.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
If you build those social houses you'll generate rent from those who take them up.

The experience to date in this country and elsewhere is that the rent the State receives from social housing is rarely if ever enough to meet the cost of maintaining them long-term. Forget altogether about repaying the original investment.

That's why council estates across the land are riddled with empty derelict properties and others heading in the same direction.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 01:03:19 PM
Quote from: five points on January 23, 2020, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
If you build those social houses you'll generate rent from those who take them up.

The experience to date in this country and elsewhere is that the rent the State received from social housing is rarely if ever enough to meet the cost of maintaining them long-term. Forget altogether about repaying the original investment.

That's why council estates across the land are riddled with empty derelict properties and others heading in the same direction.

Why is this though? Is it because those living in them were unemployed or not paid enough for the work they did? At least we have a minimum, if not a living wage now. I'd also suggest a good % of social houses should be rent to buy to give people that chance to own their home one day. The "experience to date" in this country is a pretty poor foundation for any economic discussion I'd suggest also though I wouldn't be so sure you're assertion is correct.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: TheOptimist on January 23, 2020, 01:12:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 12:16:03 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.

This one often amuses me. Not saying you, but there is sometimes an attitude, SF policies sound like FF policies that failed so people should vote for FF instead!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 01:19:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 01:03:19 PM
Why is this though? Is it because those living in them were unemployed or not paid enough for the work they did? At least we have a minimum, if not a living wage now. I'd also suggest a good % of social houses should be rent to buy to give people that chance to own their home one day. The "experience to date" in this country is a pretty poor foundation for any economic discussion I'd suggest also though I wouldn't be so sure you're assertion is correct.

Why weren't the properties maintained?

Pick your answer:

1. their owners (the councils) couldn't afford to.
or
2. they didn't bother to.

Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 01:03:19 PM
though I wouldn't be so sure you're assertion is correct.
Which assertion?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on January 23, 2020, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that's an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O'Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That's a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Problem is developers are back fleecing people on the housing market. Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

How much does a developer make per house or a site they develop?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on January 23, 2020, 01:29:21 PM

How much does a developer make per house or a site they develop?

As much as they can after paying everyone.

20 years ago it was a lucrative trade and we had houses built everywhere. Around here there hasn't been one built anywhere for 10 or 12 years and you'd pay an arm and a leg to rent a place if you can find one. Something's gone haywire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on January 23, 2020, 01:12:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 12:16:03 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.

This one often amuses me. Not saying you, but there is sometimes an attitude, SF policies sound like FF policies that failed so people should vote for FF instead!

That's how the Irish people operate. Austerity usually has to be carried out by a coalition of FG and Labour, and much needed social legislation (divorce, abortion). This ends up alienating a huge amount of people. FF swoop in with their populist policies and people forget the recession they caused in the 1980s that caused 250,000 to emigrate with high unemployment, and similar a decade ago. The previous party get little thanks. Ruari Quinn in last rainbow coalition brought in the corp tax that revolutionised employment in this country yet Labour are still being punished for trying to clean up the mess FF created after inheriting a great economy from that coalition. SF are now out there with the populist policies. Pension age 65 is typical. Every developed country is going to need to raise this age. People are living longer and funding an aging population will be one of the biggest challenges of our time. These are facts that we need to embrace but gets turned into hysteria.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:18:40 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
That's how the Irish people operate. Austerity usually has to be carried out by a coalition of FG and Labour, and much needed social legislation (divorce, abortion). This ends up alienating a huge amount of people. FF swoop in with their populist policies and people forget the recession they caused in the 1980s that caused 250,000 to emigrate with high unemployment, and similar a decade ago. The previous party get little thanks.

It was Charlie Haughey's FF who implemented austerity in 1987 after FG/Labour had sat in government for 5 years and refused to tackle a big public spending deficit problem (which admittedly had been caused originally by Jack Lynch and worsened by Haughey).

Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Ruari Quinn in last rainbow coalition brought in the corp tax that revolutionised employment in this country yet Labour are still being punished for trying to clean up the mess FF created after inheriting a great economy from that coalition
Quinn merely updated Corporation Tax that was previously 10% for manufacturing companies and widened it to all companies. Quinn also introduced the Seaside Resorts tax incentive, the first of the big tax incentives that fuelled the bubble, but he's much too shy to claim credit for that.


Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
SF are now out there with the populist policies. Pension age 65 is typical. Every developed country is going to need to raise this age. People are living longer and funding an aging population will be one of the biggest challenges of our time. These are facts that we need to embrace but gets turned into hysteria.

On this we are agreed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)

Our economic model is a total mess. We should be looking at decreasing inequality still further with our taxation regmie, not making it worse.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 12:16:03 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.

Language is so important here. FF's manifesto didn't cause the worldwide recession. The policies they implemented left the country badly exposed to this recession. Typically in this country we spend "when we have it" and cut when we don't - the exact opposite of what public policy should be.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:42:01 PM
Quote from: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.

You're a gas ticket! So naive and clueless.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on January 23, 2020, 02:42:48 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 12:16:03 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.

Language is so important here. FF's manifesto didn't cause the worldwide recession. The policies they implemented left the country badly exposed to this recession. Typically in this country we spend "when we have it" and cut when we don't - the exact opposite of what public policy should be.

Replace "we" with "Fianna Fail" and you're about right.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:42:01 PM
Quote from: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.

You're a gas ticket! So naive and clueless.

Any better retort than ad hominem insult? Thought not.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dec on January 23, 2020, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 10:11:45 AM
but my hope is for a left alliance of SF/Green/Lab/SD/PbP

The only way you will ever get that is if the left parties refuse to go into coalition with FG or FF
However I think if FG or FF get close to a majority then either Labour or the Greens (or both) will end up in coalition.

Force a FG/FF coalition and then run as a proper left alternative against them next time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dec on January 23, 2020, 02:47:50 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units,

Is there a law or regulation that prevents that at the moment?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 02:59:15 PM
Quote from: dec on January 23, 2020, 02:47:50 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units,

Is there a law or regulation that prevents that at the moment?

There's height limitations in Dublin, also concerns about the impact on the skyline.
As a country too we also have an obsession with home ownership - which is old, legacy thinking.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/01/16/home-ownership-is-the-wests-biggest-economic-policy-mistake
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 23, 2020, 03:07:37 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on January 23, 2020, 12:06:48 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 22, 2020, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

QuoteIt's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.

Is it not a bit obscene that Pat Kenny provided both Leo and Micheal with an opportunity to tear into Sinn Féin when SF weren't allowed to be there to defend themselves? Surely this is fundamentally wrong?
It probably is but the tv heads decided to have a presidential style head to head between Martin and Varadker because one of them is going to be the next Taoiseach.
I imagine FF and FG would both like to have Mary Lou on the program as they'd both tear into her and her policies.
That's one thing  they would agree on without a doubt. While they may dislike each other, they both fear the Shinners.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 04:27:55 PM
Quote from: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:42:01 PM
Quote from: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.

You're a gas ticket! So naive and clueless.

Any better retort than ad hominem insult? Thought not.

Don't be getting on your high horse when you made ridiculous inaccurate assumptions about me initially.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 04:30:38 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 04:27:55 PM
Don't be getting on your high horse when you made ridiculous inaccurate assumptions about me initially.

Bitterness is not an argument.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it's for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 05:59:58 PM
If there is publicly owned land available for 100,000 houses why not use 3 quarters of it for affordable houses for sale at cost prices. Have clawbacks etc by all means.
Now if put to tender how much would it cost per house for say 100 no frills houses on e.g an 8 acre site? No VAT as purchaser will be paying that on the finished product.
The other quarter can be used for social and/or tenant purchase houses.

One way or the other the new Government has to seriously and in workable practical manner address the housing issue instead of hiding behind an ideology.
Most young people who get up early in the morning or indeed work all sorts of unsocial hours cannot afford to buy a house, cannot afford to rent a flat or house, cannot get the deposit required together, or can't get a high enough mortgage to afford housing where the jobs are.
The FG "average income" of 80k per person can but most young people are lucky to be earning half that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it's for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 07:04:58 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.

That's the whole point, isn't it, after that time you have somewhere to live!

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 07:11:19 PM
Looks like Shinners to take Pringle's seat i nDún na nGall de réir pobal breith déanta ag TG4.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 07:13:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 07:11:19 PM
Looks like Shinners to take Pringle's seat i nDún na nGall de réir pobal breith déanta ag TG4.

I note to that Peter Casey gets feck all, which has to be good thing on balance.

(https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/4977153/original/?width=630&version=4977153)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 23, 2020, 07:48:34 PM
Is there a massive demand for housing outside of Dublin (and its commuter towns)?

Surely the questions should be along the lines of:

1. Is the population of Ireland rising so quickly that there is a shortage of space?
   1.(a) If not, is it that external investors are pricing the indigenous people out of houses?
      1.(a)(i) If so, then introduce laws that make foreign holding of rental property in Ireland prohibitively expensive for the prospective landlord.
      1.(a)(ii) If not, then goto Q2
   1.(b) If yes, housing density within the cities needs to increase.

2. Is the demand rising uniformly across the country or is it concentrated in certain areas (i.e. Dublin)?
   2.(a)If uniform, then the number of new builds need to increase
   2.(b)If concentrated, then what can be done to more evenly spread demand around the country? Tax incentives? Better infrastructure? Education campuses?


Its not the "price of rent" or "price of housing" you need to tackle with some bullsh|t simpleton law that limits the price of X or Y - its the reasons behind the change.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 23, 2020, 11:25:23 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it's for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.

The European model of renting for life is okay so long as pensions are geared to allow people to afford to pay rent when they finish working. Currently, that's not possible for most pensioners in Ireland
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 23, 2020, 10:23:11 AM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.

No answer to who the SDLP is backing this election then?

Is it F Failure's Durkan of FF's Michael 'sit on the fence' Martin?

By the way, how's Colum getting on with Brexit? - has he stopped it yet? I'm tired waiting on the update.

He's running Stormont from London after giving out to previous leaders that this shouldn't be the case.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on January 24, 2020, 08:46:23 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.
No you are not, affordable housing has to be built to a different spec/finish the cost only goes on to the developer (if there is any) the remaining houses are sold at what the market dictates. If you don't do this then people on lower incomes will never be able to afford housing. Good to see BCC is going this way. It is a policy very successfully deployed in GB.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 24, 2020, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: marty34 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 23, 2020, 10:23:11 AM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.

No answer to who the SDLP is backing this election then?

Is it F Failure's Durkan of FF's Michael 'sit on the fence' Martin?

By the way, how's Colum getting on with Brexit? - has he stopped it yet? I'm tired waiting on the update.

He's running Stormont from London after giving out to previous leaders that this shouldn't be the case.

Is he?

Who's running SF now? Ted Howell?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 24, 2020, 10:10:26 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 24, 2020, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: marty34 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 23, 2020, 10:23:11 AM
Quote from: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.

No answer to who the SDLP is backing this election then?

Is it F Failure's Durkan of FF's Michael 'sit on the fence' Martin?

By the way, how's Colum getting on with Brexit? - has he stopped it yet? I'm tired waiting on the update.

He's running Stormont from London after giving out to previous leaders that this shouldn't be the case.

Is he?

Who's running SF now? Ted Howell?

All joking aside, Trailer. Who do you vote for in the six counties, since you believe that voting for anyone other than the 'big two' parties in an election is just a waste and "a protest vote"?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 10:23:07 AM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.

When owning over a lifetime, you pay the cost of your accommodation including its maintenance, and a premium to the mortgage financier in the form of bank interest, the latter which declines over time as the mortgage is repaid.

When renting over a lifetime, you pay the cost of your accommodation including its maintenance, plus a risk premium to the owner, plus their mortgage costs, plus the income tax that the State will levy on them in respect of the rents you pay to them.

This tax wedge makes renting a far more expensive option in the long run.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 10:31:43 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 23, 2020, 07:48:34 PM
Is there a massive demand for housing outside of Dublin (and its commuter towns)?

Surely the questions should be along the lines of:

1. Is the population of Ireland rising so quickly that there is a shortage of space?
   1.(a) If not, is it that external investors are pricing the indigenous people out of houses?
      1.(a)(i) If so, then introduce laws that make foreign holding of rental property in Ireland prohibitively expensive for the prospective landlord.
      1.(a)(ii) If not, then goto Q2
   1.(b) If yes, housing density within the cities needs to increase.

2. Is the demand rising uniformly across the country or is it concentrated in certain areas (i.e. Dublin)?
   2.(a)If uniform, then the number of new builds need to increase
   2.(b)If concentrated, then what can be done to more evenly spread demand around the country? Tax incentives? Better infrastructure? Education campuses?


Its not the "price of rent" or "price of housing" you need to tackle with some bullsh|t simpleton law that limits the price of X or Y - its the reasons behind the change.

Good questions well put.

Here's what I see.

- The population has increased reasonably dramatically.

- At the same time, the quality of some of the older housing stock (much of it built more than 40/50 years ago) has deteriorated beyond usefulness. For example the old Ballymun flats were uninhabitable and had to be knocked, so their replacement didn't add to the housing stock.

- There has been nearly no building in the last decade.

So the overall stock of housing per capita has plummeted.

And the regional development has been concentrated in the large urban areas. For example in the West, nobody wants to go to college in Belmullet or Ballina so Galway ends up with both a university and an IT. And the large employers will set up in Galway because that's where the graduates are. How to address this without doing harm is a big question.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 10:46:57 AM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it's for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don't know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in '91, I'd still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don't think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 10:57:57 AM
Certainly does in Ireland anyway plus renters have no security of tenure unless in Council housing.
That Ir£30k Lar - what multiple of your annual pay was that?
In those Continental Countries where renting is the norm what would the average rent per month be?
What sort of tenure have the renters?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 24, 2020, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 10:46:57 AM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it's for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don't know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in '91, I'd still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don't think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.

30 years ago this was a very different market, it is only one example, are you telling me that if i bought your house now for 450k, in 30 years it will be worth 7 million, complete nonsense. There are many stories of people getting lucky in the market, that's all it is, luck. The majority now are being sucked in by the banks to a lifetime of debt, the sad thing is that we do this willingly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 24, 2020, 12:12:27 PM
Quote from: five points on January 24, 2020, 10:31:43 AM
And the regional development has been concentrated in the large urban areas. For example in the West, nobody wants to go to college in Belmullet or Ballina so Galway ends up with both a university and an IT. And the large employers will set up in Galway because that's where the graduates are. How to address this without doing harm is a big question.

Yeah, its a tricky problem. Students will want the social life, so need a population centre - thats pretty much set in stone.

Businesses all need good access to workers - not all businesses need good (physical) access to customers (i.e. IT).
I suppose the questions then could become:
- do the workers need to live on the doorstep of work?
- do workers move to where work is located?
- what is acceptable commute time?
- does it change between car*, train, tram & walk? (*quality of road?)
- do the offices need to be big & few, or can they be small and many (distributed)?
- can workers work remotely?
- can workers for multiple end-employers share a common office space?


Using Galway as an example case - incentives to set up offices in the likes of Ennis or Athenry - or at least along the M6 or M18 corridors might help. But that might be too simple.

The govt maybe should look at a corporation tax scheme (for non manufacturing operations) that is a function of headcount (above a threshold - say 50 employees) and the density of that headcount per county (that the business has offices in). The more distributed you are below a concentration threshold, the lower your CT. The higher your concentration of employees per county above the threshold, the higher your CT.

Wouldn't be too difficult to administer as the headcount of organisations is relatively easy to keep track of - spot checks of offices can be done to ensure that people are working where the companies say they are.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 12:13:27 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 24, 2020, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 10:46:57 AM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it's for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don't know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in '91, I'd still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don't think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.

30 years ago this was a very different market, it is only one example, are you telling me that if i bought your house now for 450k, in 30 years it will be worth 7 million, complete nonsense. There are many stories of people getting lucky in the market, that's all it is, luck. The majority now are being sucked in by the banks to a lifetime of debt, the sad thing is that we do this willingly.

But you don't get a lifetime of debt, you get 20 or 25 years of debt. Then you own the house outright.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 12:27:38 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Debate away but, barring a major SF breakthrough, they're unlikely to have 40 seats between them. We are where we are.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 12:41:33 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

That coalition only had 41 seats by the end of the last Dáil. 80 is needed for a majority. FF & FG currently have 92 between them and there's ~20 independents so FF / FG combined tally would need to fall to ~60 to make such a coalition viable. There'd need to be a pre-election left voting pact to make any real inroads there
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on January 24, 2020, 12:58:15 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Feck the left. Nothing to offer. Bad and all as Brexit/BoJo in the UK was, the electorate still chose them over Labour.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 01:12:23 PM
Dont think SF has issued a manifesto* yet but their candidate in Roscommon(most of)/Galway says they'll hire 2,500 Nurses/midwives, open 1,500 new beds, hire an additional 1,000 doctors/consultants and provide 12 million extra home help hours over 5 years.
That would be lovely but she didn't mention how it will be paid for or who will pay for it, especially as they are against the USC and Property tax.

* As no party will form a Government on their own those things are meaningless shiny booklets.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 24, 2020, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 10:46:57 AM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it's for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don't know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in '91, I'd still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don't think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.

30 years ago this was a very different market, it is only one example, are you telling me that if i bought your house now for 450k, in 30 years it will be worth 7 million, complete nonsense. There are many stories of people getting lucky in the market, that's all it is, luck. The majority now are being sucked in by the banks to a lifetime of debt, the sad thing is that we do this willingly.
True, we had a different market back in '91 but my case was not an isolated instance. It was pretty much the norm and, in any event, the comparison then and now is perfectly valid.
The money one pays over the lifetime of a mortgage will represent money well spent when compared to a lifetime paying rent to make somebody else rich.
You don't appear to grasp that there is a double whammy involved when you pay rent vs owning your own home. In general terms, the price of property keeps rising and so does the rent- at least in keeping with inflation. The tenant doesn't benefit in either event but the landlord has the best of both worlds. I may have paid a mortgage but I had the steady increase in assets to balance this.
Today, I have €500.000 in reserve and my home is mine to live in or dispose of as I set fit.
If I rented living accommodation I would have neither now.
In any event, if my house should ever be worth 7 million, what do you think the rent for something similar would be or do you think rental prices exist in a time warp?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 24, 2020, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 02:49:32 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 24, 2020, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."
;D ;D
Extremely well put!
We  don't have a left here. At least a left that have evolved practical strategies and that lives in the real world. In common or garden English, I cannot ever recall a manifesto from any leftie party that was taken seriously by the business world.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 03:04:36 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 24, 2020, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."

Tbf, they didn't have the numbers to go into govt. SF were ruled out by both FG and FF

I think the left needs to give the country a proposal for a non-FG/FF govt pre-election if they are ever to stand a chance of breaking the traditional setup.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 03:04:36 PM
I think the left needs to give the country a proposal for a non-FG/FF govt pre-election if they are ever to stand a chance of breaking the traditional setup.

They have no interest in doing that. They prefer to split into a lot of small parties, each claiming separate party funding allowances from the State. The political equivalent of the farmers' dole.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 24, 2020, 03:20:59 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 02:49:32 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 24, 2020, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."
;D ;D
Extremely well put!
We  don't have a left here. At least a left that have evolved practical strategies and that lives in the real world. In common or garden English, I cannot ever recall a manifesto from any leftie party that was taken seriously by the business world.

Clearly confirming our country is run for the business world. Exactly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 01:12:23 PM
Dont think SF has issued a manifesto* yet but their candidate in Roscommon(most of)/Galway says they'll hire 2,500 Nurses/midwives, open 1,500 new beds, hire an additional 1,000 doctors/consultants and provide 12 million extra home help hours over 5 years.
That would be lovely but she didn't mention how it will be paid for or who will pay for it, especially as they are against the USC and Property tax.

* As no party will form a Government on their own those things are meaningless shiny booklets.

You seem to have a bit of tunnel vision here, FF/FG promise the sun, moon and stars and have a proven track record in not only failing to deliver on those promises but plunging the state into crisis after crisis with their policies and decision making. It's beyond bizarre to have a bee in your bonnet about SF not delivering when the establishment parties never have and have actually reneged on many of their election promises.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 04:45:27 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 24, 2020, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto?
Where is FFG's joint manifesto?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 05:25:59 PM
Another glossy but of fiction?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/six-key-policy-areas-in-fine-gaels-election-manifesto-38892247.html

Wonder they didn't start a few of those things while they were in power  ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 06:30:49 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 01:12:23 PM
Dont think SF has issued a manifesto* yet but their candidate in Roscommon(most of)/Galway says they'll hire 2,500 Nurses/midwives, open 1,500 new beds, hire an additional 1,000 doctors/consultants and provide 12 million extra home help hours over 5 years.
That would be lovely but she didn't mention how it will be paid for or who will pay for it, especially as they are against the USC and Property tax.

* As no party will form a Government on their own those things are meaningless shiny booklets.

You seem to have a bit of tunnel vision here, FF/FG promise the sun, moon and stars and have a proven track record in not only failing to deliver on those promises but plunging the state into crisis after crisis with their policies and decision making. It's beyond bizarre to have a bee in your bonnet about SF not delivering when the establishment parties never have and have actually reneged on many of their election promises.

And tbe outrage when I suggest there is a plan b
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:36:37 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:36:37 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:36:37 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 08:22:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:36:37 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.

The reason parties practise auction politics is because is works, people are willing to believe things that are literally unbelievable
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 10:09:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:36:37 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.
But FF destroyed the country doing it. Nobody wants them back in, but the other arse cheek have to go. Yet as we see on here, nobody willing to take a plunge on something new
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 10:28:26 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 10:09:30 PM
But FF destroyed the country doing it. Nobody wants them back in, but the other arse cheek have to go. Yet as we see on here, nobody willing to take a plunge on something new

The issue is not what whose polices were in the past, but what they are now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 08:22:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:36:37 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.

The reason parties practise auction politics is because is works, people are willing to believe things that are literally unbelievable
There's nowt as queer as folks, as they say  in Yorkshire.
Politicians by and large are elected by the people and therefore they mirror the interests of those who elect them.  If they didn't they would never get re-elected.. That's a harsh, unpalatable fact but it is undeniable and illogical as well.
I don't know what the mass herd instinct is but people who may be rational, balanced individuals on most matters that concern them tend to leave reality behind when they head for the polling booths.
FF are back again, re-packaged and re-branded and seem likely to return to power again after banjaxing the economy less than a decade ago. FG, on the other hand, seem hell bent on proving the are just as inept and inefficient as FF ever was and have spent the last 8 years trying to hammer this home and still has a realistic chance of being given the opportunity to continue making a complete and utter bills of the country's finances and few, if any, of the general public seem to notice never mind object.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 11:51:36 PM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2020, 01:58:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 10:28:26 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 10:09:30 PM
But FF destroyed the country doing it. Nobody wants them back in, but the other arse cheek have to go. Yet as we see on here, nobody willing to take a plunge on something new

The issue is not what whose polices were in the past, but what they are now.
The issue is which party understands what is going on now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Billys Boots on January 27, 2020, 09:00:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 11:51:36 PM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.

In a nutshell.  Post of the month.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 27, 2020, 09:31:11 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on January 27, 2020, 09:00:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 11:51:36 PM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.

In a nutshell.  Post of the month.

Paddy's clearly an idiot so.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 27, 2020, 05:19:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 11:51:36 PM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.

One of the most insightful things I've read in a long time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 27, 2020, 05:21:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?

It would probably fly if the public were better informed about how things work. They should be teaching basic economics and civics in school from a young age, you'd probably see better governments getting elected.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 27, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
We need to collect a bit of corporation tax off a few multi billion dollar companies and banks who are located within the state

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 27, 2020, 08:45:54 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on January 27, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
We need to collect a bit of corporation tax off a few multi billion dollar companies and banks who are located within the state

The usual magic money tree, tax someone else.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 27, 2020, 09:38:53 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?

Depends how credible you and your plans are. I think most people would be happy to pay their taxes if we got the public services we require/deserve.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 27, 2020, 10:09:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?
Ask the Soc Dems and PBP
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 08:05:27 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 28, 2020, 08:25:56 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 27, 2020, 08:45:54 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on January 27, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
We need to collect a bit of corporation tax off a few multi billion dollar companies and banks who are located within the state

The usual magic money tree, tax someone else.
5% of people own 40% of everything
Tax land hoarding
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 08:05:27 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Captain Scarlet on January 28, 2020, 09:24:29 AM
Alan Dillon shot some of his ad on GAA property...
https://twitter.com/Alan_Dillon/status/1222073097135775745?s=19

That's not allowed I thought?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: highorlow on January 28, 2020, 10:06:36 AM
Old footage is probably allowed. Likely recorded before he became a candidate.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 10:07:06 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 08:05:27 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett
Does that mean they will  now be Taoiseach and Tánaiste?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 08:05:27 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett

Agreed.

For me Varadkar boxed clever and may not have won but didnt really do himself any damage. Martin was poor I thought, he is not Taoiseach material. Was disappointed with Shortall, seemed almost disinterested. Howlin tried hard but I think labour lack credibility with the left at the moment.

Also, given SF's surge and Mary Lou doing well last night, watch now from a crank up from the media to discredit SF. Already we had the times putting out some nonsense yesterday and today Peadar Tobin (a terrorist apologiser to the Indo 4 years ago) is now front page news attacking them. I hope voters see this for what it is.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 28, 2020, 10:13:35 AM
Quote from: highorlow on January 28, 2020, 10:06:36 AM
Old footage is probably allowed. Likely recorded before he became a candidate.

It's clearly current. He's been a candidate for more than a year now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 28, 2020, 10:15:20 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 08:05:27 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett

Agreed.

For me Varadkar boxed clever and may not have won but didnt really do himself any damage. Martin was poor I thought, he is not Taoiseach material. Was disappointed with Shortall, seemed almost disinterested. Howlin tried hard but I think labour lack credibility with the left at the moment.

Agree on all counts. Shortall was out of her depth. She's no more a party leader than Michael Healy Rae. Howlin's hour is long gone.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 28, 2020, 10:25:30 AM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 28, 2020, 10:35:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 08:05:27 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett

Agreed.

For me Varadkar boxed clever and may not have won but didnt really do himself any damage. Martin was poor I thought, he is not Taoiseach material. Was disappointed with Shortall, seemed almost disinterested. Howlin tried hard but I think labour lack credibility with the left at the moment.

Also, given SF's surge and Mary Lou doing well last night, watch now from a crank up from the media to discredit SF. Already we had the times putting out some nonsense yesterday and today Peadar Tobin (a terrorist apologiser to the Indo 4 years ago) is now front page news attacking them. I hope voters see this for what it is.

Hopefully he will retain his seat in the face of the exclusion afforded to him, be tough though, SF are shipping in minibuses  from all over to Meath to ensure he is silenced forever.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 11:04:40 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 28, 2020, 10:25:30 AM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.

Good old Indo, embarrassing themselves yet again. How anyone could listen to Martin and think he won and/or would make a good Taoiseach - well basically you would just have to be die hard Finna Failer.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How's that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I'm sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 12:13:19 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How's that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I'm sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 12:13:19 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How's that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I'm sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.

Was referring to SF calling other party leaders posh boys when one is the son of a bus driver and the other immigrants? Education nothing to do with it so long as you don't typecast others when you yourself are well heeled. And less of the personal insults. The relation between IRA, some members of Sinn Fein and some drug gangs in Ireland is public domain if you do some research. People have a right to be concerned that people who cheered the killers of Garda at Ard Dheis are making decisions for government that could be in charge of Gardai and future of SCC.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 12:59:19 PM
Arra Ros sure doesn't everyone, except you, know that Sinn Féin are always right about everything all the time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 28, 2020, 01:07:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 12:13:19 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How's that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I'm sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.

Well to a degree it has when Ógra Shinn Féin put out on their official Twitter last night "Good on ML putting the manner on the posh boys". Also  SF cant cry about their treatment and not expect the Toibin story to get coverage. Mary Lou did not perform well last night for a leader in opposition she should have all the aces, put flattered to deceive, no concrete answers, just "well what about this and that" . She talks about problems wit no real solutions. Anyone can say lets build 100k houses

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 01:10:51 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 12:13:19 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How's that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I'm sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.

Was referring to SF calling other party leaders posh boys when one is the son of a bus driver and the other immigrants? Education nothing to do with it so long as you don't typecast others when you yourself are well heeled. And less of the personal insults. The relation between IRA, some members of Sinn Fein and some drug gangs in Ireland is public domain if you do some research. People have a right to be concerned that people who cheered the killers of Garda at Ard Dheis are making decisions for government that could be in charge of Gardai and future of SCC.

What are SF as a party links to the drug gangs. If you are talking about 1 bad apple in a party then that is hardly a reflection on the whole party. For balance I would like to understand the links between FF and FG to big business, lobby groups, groups that avoid tax, media groups etc. Where are our gallant independent media to remind us of those - you know the white collar crime that no one gets held accountable for?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 11:04:40 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 28, 2020, 10:25:30 AM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.

Good old Indo, embarrassing themselves yet again. How anyone could listen to Martin and think he won and/or would make a good Taoiseach - well basically you would just have to be die hard Finna Failer.
The Indo have yet to publish a poll. I hear a rumour that they don't like the polls but the polling company wont jigger it to be more indo friendly
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 28, 2020, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 28, 2020, 10:25:30 AM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.

Honestly don't know how anybody could claim that Micheal Martin was the winner. His strength is normally his debating skills but he definitely didn't give a good performance last night. I thought Boyd Barrett was much better than 4/10. Mary Lou produced plenty of bluster but no real substance and I'm not sure she outlined any credible plan to solve the housing crisis. Bizarre that the debate barely covered the crisis in health. Overall, I don't really see how the debate would sway your opinion to vote in any manner. I think there will be a clear establishment (FG/FF) v anti establishment (others) split in the voting patterns. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 04:25:10 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Listen buck you have no idea who I'm going to vote for so less of the immature stereotyping.
I'll be giving Greens 1, Fitzmaurice 2, Naughten 3, SDP 4 and the rest can take a running jump at themselves.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 28, 2020, 04:55:05 PM
It is once again clear that SF have zero interest in a United Ireland. In the debate, Varadkar noted that SF had voted for he pension age in NI should be 66 while advocating reducing it to 65 in the 26 counties.
Unification has now become an economic issue as much as anything, yet SF keep cranking up public expenditure in a way that makes unification unaffordable.

As for Martin, he didn't do great but he only had to ensure that he didn't trip up. People believe that FF will build more houses than FG without taxing the bejaysus out of everyone and that alone will improve their position.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
How are FF and FG, now that they've suddenly lurched to the left, going to pay for the 50k/60k Social Houses (€10Bn/€12Bn)?
How many did the build since May 2016 when they started their Governing arrangement together?
Meanwhile the Shinners are going to build 100,000 houses for €6.5Bn . That's €65k per house by my maths.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 05:44:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 04:25:10 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Listen buck you have no idea who I'm going to vote for so less of the immature stereotyping.
I'll be giving Greens 1, Fitzmaurice 2, Naughten 3, SDP 4 and the rest can take a running jump at themselves.

That's what you're telling us but it's easy to see what's behind the veil and that's an establishment shill who will vote for some self serving FF/FG regardless of ideology/policy/reform.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 28, 2020, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
How are FF and FG, now that they've suddenly lurched to the left, going to pay for the 50k/60k Social Houses (€10Bn/€12Bn)?
How many did the build since May 2016 when they started their Governing arrangement together?
Meanwhile the Shinners are going to build 100,000 houses for €6.5Bn . That's €65k per house by my maths.

All of these plans rely on using "state owned land" and assigning it no value. Some of these houses will be sold to favoured people for construction cost only.
The problem with this is you end up with no land and no real solution to the general problem. This may be justified in the short term but it does not put the housing market on a long term basis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 05:54:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.

Varadkar did well playing the quiet card alright.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 05:44:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 04:25:10 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Listen buck you have no idea who I'm going to vote for so less of the immature stereotyping.
I'll be giving Greens 1, Fitzmaurice 2, Naughten 3, SDP 4 and the rest can take a running jump at themselves.

That's what you're telling us but it's easy to see what's behind the veil and that's an establishment shill who will vote for some self serving FF/FG regardless of ideology/policy/reform.
Will you stop making a bigger clown of yourself than you already have been doing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 11:43:05 PM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

Bar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

It's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 29, 2020, 12:43:19 AM
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 11:43:05 PM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

All too easy to blame FF, it is always someone else's fault. FF did precipitate a boom, egged on by the other parties, and this  collapsed. During the boom, they increased expenditure, but things like dole and non-contributory pensions increased more than public pay. Where FF caused harm was in not clearly linking the pay to that required for the job, so clerks got generous increases and specialists even then fell behind the private sector. The pay was reduced, FG did not chose to restore it based on the job market but rather on political gameplaying, so we now do not have enough doctors and teachers because it was not restored when the rest of the economy and rents etc are much higher than 12 years ago.  FG did even remotely attempt a public pay policy, other than what seemed expedient.

QuoteBar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

I wouldn't blame them for the cervical thing especially, but the other two were needless. But apart from that they sold property to vulture funds who put people out and so on the housing list, when the government could just have turned the property into a council house in the first place. They singularly failed to plan for anything, only acting when the crisis arose. So they wait until trains are a health and safety problem and then order some carriages, which take 2 years to arrive. You have patients staying hospital beds because the doctors can't get them a MRI scan.

QuoteIt's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.

FF fell victim to hubris, now FG has, all you can do is swap them to remind them that they have  to actually do their job.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 29, 2020, 07:23:56 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 10:42:48 AM
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 11:43:05 PM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

Bar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

It's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.

You missed quite a few bars. Irish Water, Garda corruption, running down the military, the retirement age ballsup, swing gate, the RIC debacle, rural broadband, vote gate and so on.

You cant say pension liabilities restrict capital spending when they are building the 6th most expensive building ever, and by a significant distance the worlds most expensive public building.

Yes, FF handed them a bag of shite, but they spilled it everywhere.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 11:32:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 07:23:56 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.

Personal responsibility
Accountability
Budgeting
Getting up early
Mowing the lawn
Being romantic
2 hands on the hurl
Checking the fuel gauge

These are all a great bunch of lads but they won't fix the country when the economic system is dying
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 11:32:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 07:23:56 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.

Personal responsibility
Accountability
Budgeting
Getting up early
Mowing the lawn
Being romantic
2 hands on the hurl
Checking the fuel gauge

These are all a great bunch of lads but they won't fix the country when the economic system is dying

They first 3 did in 1987, and undid a 10-year recession that at the time seemed like a depression.

The economic system isn't dying either.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 29, 2020, 11:39:31 AM
Has standards of living of posters from the 26 counties not improved during the time FG has been in power? Mine certainly has. I think Ireland is a great place to live and offers great opportunities.

My kids are in a Deis school, but they work hard and the teachers work hard to help them. They have a great opportunity to go to third level and ultimately give themselves the best chance to have good careers. It's up to them as to what they can achieve, as it should be.

Health system is the biggest worry, but FG are committed to Slaintecare and that looks to me to be the best alternative.

Putting our economic strategy in the hands of SF could be catastrophic. The economy is being well managed. We need to get more growth outside of Dublin, and that is happening to a degree and there are thriving towns up and down the country. But more to do to widen the spread.

My biggest problem with my vote is I don't care for either of the FG candidates in my constituency. But I am confident Varadker and Coveney are the best two people around to lead our country.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 12:00:31 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 11:32:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 07:23:56 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.

Personal responsibility
Accountability
Budgeting
Getting up early
Mowing the lawn
Being romantic
2 hands on the hurl
Checking the fuel gauge

These are all a great bunch of lads but they won't fix the country when the economic system is dying

They first 3 did in 1987, and undid a 10-year recession that at the time seemed like a depression.

The economic system isn't dying either.

The gold price and interest rates say that it is
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 29, 2020, 12:04:11 PM
Leo and Simon look the part when compared to Mícheál Martin and whoever FF's Deputy Leader might be.
The Sláintecare programme needs lots of €€€€s to implement and I havent seen any serious proposal as to where this will come from (apart from the fairytale manifestos issued over the last week or so).
Regional development urgently required in the BMW and again I'm not hearing any serious proposals for this.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 29, 2020, 03:05:17 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 11:43:05 PM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

Bar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

It's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.
I could well go along with what you are saying but, as always, the devil is in the detail. All elections between '97 and 2011 were characterised by lavish promises from all parties as each tried to outdo the others in trying to get their snouts into the gravy trough and, in this regard, FG stood man to man with FF.
FG's manifesto was just as profligate as FF's in 2007 and as one prominent FG character confided to me, he often woke up sweating when he was dreaming about what might have happened if his side had actually won that one.
Good luck and a few thousand votes saved FG from Armageddon.
As I look at the manifestos of the big two, I can see history repeating itself.
I see hope for the future as the electorate, by and large, appears to be sick of the auction politicking of the main parties but I am worried because there appears to be no viable alternative.
And while I'm at it, another hoary old lie needs to be put to highlighted. FG would love to be regarded as the guardians of the public good, always ready to answer the call of duty and prepared to step in and clean up the mess caused by the profligacy of successive FF administrations.
If that was indeed the case, the Irish electorate must have always been a truly ungrateful shower of hoors because every FG/Lab coalition got tossed out first chance they got with the exception of 2016  where Enda became the first Blue Shirt to serve two successive terms as Taoiseach.
I can't see Leo becoming the second one but I can't help feeling that Coveney is more of a statesman than  anyone else in FG, FF or indeed any other party.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 29, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children's hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There's no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don't realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it's ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we've ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won't see much difference between that lot).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 04:09:58 PM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/ff-and-fg-attack-dangerous-sinn-fein-pledges-on-economy-38905911.html

"FF attack dangerous pledges on economy" is a bit rich
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 04:11:07 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 29, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
Yes broadband and children's hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future.

Both are a waste of money. The broadband will be to internet connectivity what CIE is to public transport. The children's hospital will deliver a dozen or two extra beds at astronomical cost.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 29, 2020, 11:39:31 AM
Has standards of living of posters from the 26 counties not improved during the time FG has been in power? Mine certainly has. I think Ireland is a great place to live and offers great opportunities.

My kids are in a Deis school, but they work hard and the teachers work hard to help them. They have a great opportunity to go to third level and ultimately give themselves the best chance to have good careers. It's up to them as to what they can achieve, as it should be.

Health system is the biggest worry, but FG are committed to Slaintecare and that looks to me to be the best alternative.

Putting our economic strategy in the hands of SF could be catastrophic. The economy is being well managed. We need to get more growth outside of Dublin, and that is happening to a degree and there are thriving towns up and down the country. But more to do to widen the spread.

My biggest problem with my vote is I don't care for either of the FG candidates in my constituency. But I am confident Varadker and Coveney are the best two people around to lead our country.

So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

The economic strategy is already catastrophic, the banks and large corporations are the guys who call the shots, the most damning indictment of FF/FG is the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems. How much state money is being received by private landlords and vulture funds each year in rent? They have let the rental market spiral out of control, the economy going well makes no impact as young couples and families with decent jobs cannot afford a roof over their head, it makes no difference to sick people who are dying as they can't get a hospital bed or are misdiagnosed by a health service not fit for purpose.

The policies of FF/FG have always been to benefit the elite in society, there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis. They simply don't want to solve the housing crisis, the longer the housing crisis exists then the more it benefits the wealthy landlords and homeowners and the property developers. There are plenty of simple policies that could have tackled an out of control rental market and a shortage of supply in the last few years that weren't taken.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:01:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities and state bodies (one of which has made a shambles of the building of the children's hospital) are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year, and cant afford to anyway, so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests (including the staff) who have done well out of it.

Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:01:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests including the staff, who have done well out of it.

Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.

Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.
The UK has low unemployment but a high number of workers earning poor wages. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.

Not really, once you're in work, you're spending and sustaining further prosperity and employment. The 2009 recession here exposed that sharply.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 29, 2020, 05:27:08 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:01:08 PM
60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.

How on earth do you work that out?!?!

Please don't come back with some pseudo economics bullshit.


Simple supply and demand. If there were not investors buying houses to let, then house prices would drop - and since there are pretty much as many homes as there are folks looking homes - they'd drop to a level where people (who are right now priced out of the market) could actually afford to buy.

Worst is - its only getting harder and harder as investors accumulate more purchasing power off the rent paid by those who are already struggling to save deposits to compete with their landlords in the housing market.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:39:07 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 29, 2020, 05:27:08 PM
Please don't come back with some pseudo economics bullshit.


Simple supply and demand. If there were not investors buying houses to let, then house prices would drop - and since there are pretty much as many homes as there are folks looking homes - they'd drop to a level where people (who are right now priced out of the market) could actually afford to buy.

Worst is - its only getting harder and harder as investors accumulate more purchasing power off the rent paid by those who are already struggling to save deposits to compete with their landlords in the housing market.

Do you want an answer or do you not? I can answer you easily if you wish but if you've made up your mind already, I'd be only wasting my time.

Your call.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:01:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests including the staff, who have done well out of it.

Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.
Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.
The UK has low unemployment but a high number of workers earning poor wages.
It's not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland's  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.



 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:49:42 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:40:06 PM
It's not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland's  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.



Tasc is funded by Chuck Feeney's left-wing Atlantic Philanthropies, the EU, and the trade unions. Its reports will naturally blame employers and excuse featherbedding in the HSE and elsewhere.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:54:33 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:49:42 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:40:06 PM
It's not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland's  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.


Tasc is funded by Chuck Feeney's left-wing Atlantic Philanthropies, the EU, and the trade unions. Its reports will naturally blame employers and excuse featherbedding in the HSE and elsewhere.
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 06:01:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:54:33 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 06:21:42 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:01:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests including the staff, who have done well out of it.

Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.
Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.
The UK has low unemployment but a high number of workers earning poor wages.
It's not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland's  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.




It is the same problem across the OECD. Corporate profits have increased at the expense of worker incomes. This has been going on for 40 years .
It can't go on for much longer.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 06:01:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:54:33 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Eh, is that a retort?   The report is about inequality in Ireland. Does the report have conclusions  based on its research? yes it does. They are evidenced based conclusions, well supported by indepth research done in other countries. Is there some particular conclusion you have an issue with?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 06:49:10 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:01:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities and state bodies (one of which has made a shambles of the building of the children's hospital) are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year, and cant afford to anyway, so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests (including the staff) who have done well out of it.

Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.

That's just complete and utter nonsense. Employment might be thriving but there's a homelessness crisis, young people in good jobs with good wages simply cannot afford to buy houses and are being completely and utterly fleeced by a private rental market that has been brought about by government policy by FG/FF that shows no interest whatsoever in controlling the rental market.

Local authrorities are state bodies, who act under the policies implemented by government - if it is a case of them failing to meet the targets, then it's a failure of the government.

FF wrecked the state by selling off council houses into private ownership, it's the FF/FG way - privatise, privatise, privatise valuable resources to big business and vulture funds. Look at they utterly destroyed the health service, their policies have priced out the young people of home ownership and destroyed the health service.

The last part just proves you are on the wind up. The problem is the rental market, the problem is that people cannot afford to buy or rent in the current climate, it's to do with weak policy on rent control, it's to do with the stripping of state owned housing by the FF market. FF/FG are all about privitisation to the wealthy businessmen and vulture funds. Services such as housing and health should have been auctioned off to the private sector.


Ireland is one of the most unequal countries in Europe when it comes to healthcare access and a healthcare crisis exists exacerbates this
Dublin has the third highest residential rents in Europe, mortgage interest rates in Ireland are way above those in Europe and a homelessnes crisis exists due to this.

When these situations exist, and not only to they exist but they continue to get worse, a good economy is merely a sideshow. Wealthy inequality is growing under the policies of FF/FG and that's the aim of their policies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 06:50:36 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 06:01:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:54:33 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Eh, is that a retort?   The report is about inequality in Ireland. Does the report have conclusions  based on its research? yes it does. They are evidenced based conclusions, well supported by indepth research done in other countries. Is there some particular conclusion you have an issue with?

I have an issue with Tasc's bias and agenda (for example the supposition that inequality is an issue at all in this country). My earlier challenge stands.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 29, 2020, 06:51:59 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 06:01:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:54:33 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Eh, is that a retort?   The report is about inequality in Ireland. Does the report have conclusions  based on its research? yes it does. They are evidenced based conclusions, well supported by indepth research done in other countries. Is there some particular conclusion you have an issue with?
It doesn't agree with his neo liberal right wing mind.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 07:03:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 06:49:10 PM
Employment might be thriving but there's a homelessness crisis, young people in good jobs with good wages simply cannot afford to buy houses and are being completely and utterly fleeced by a private rental market that has been brought about by government policy by FG/FF that shows no interest whatsoever in controlling the rental market.

No its been brought about by government and opposition consensus since 2009 that we no longer need any new houses or apartments to be built, even though the population was rising.  ::)

Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 06:49:10 PM
Local authrorities are state bodies, who act under the policies implemented by government - if it is a case of them failing to meet the targets, then it's a failure of the government.
Exactly, the government is incapable of building a children's hospital. How can it be trusted to build 50,000 houses or apartments every year?

Quote from: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 06:49:10 PMFF wrecked the state by selling off council houses into private ownership, it's the FF/FG way - privatise, privatise, privatise valuable resources to big business and vulture funds.
The council houses were sold to their occupiers, mainly because the councils could no longer afford the considerable cost of maintaining and renewing them. There were no big property conglomerates in this country a decade ago.

QuoteLook at they utterly destroyed the health service, their policies have priced out the young people of home ownership and destroyed the health service.
Agreed, more failures of the State. The State that you want to take on even more responsibilities.

QuoteThe last part just proves you are on the wind up.
It does not. You mightn't like what I am saying but I most certainly am not an any windup.
Quote
The problem is the rental market, the problem is that people cannot afford to buy or rent in the current climate, it's to do with weak policy on rent control, it's to do with the stripping of state owned housing by the FF market. FF/FG are all about privitisation to the wealthy businessmen and vulture funds.

Yada yada yada. Build 100,000 extra houses or apartments in the next 2 years and the rent ripoffs will disappear like snow off a rope. 10 years ago rents were a lot cheaper as tenants had plenty of availability and could pick and choose and shop around. The squeeze on availability created a cartel who could charge what they liked. Once you restore that availability, you kill the cartel, and the problem will solve itself.
Quote
Ireland is one of the most unequal countries in Europe when it comes to healthcare access and a healthcare crisis exists exacerbates this
Fix the HSE and you fix this. But this will involve letting go a lot of staff, streamlining admin and reorganising the way things are done. I can't see the State managing this even if they want to. Can you?

Quote
Dublin has the third highest residential rents in Europe, mortgage interest rates in Ireland are way above those in Europe and a homelessnes crisis exists due to this.
See above.
Quote
When these situations exist, and not only to they exist but they continue to get worse, a good economy is merely a sideshow. Wealthy inequality is growing under the policies of FF/FG and that's the aim of their policies.
The problem is much deeper than wealth inequality. Unless you're advocating full communism, a surgeon will always earn a multiple of a dustman's pay.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 07:04:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 29, 2020, 06:51:59 PM
It doesn't agree with his neo liberal right wing mind.
8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:00:10 AM
Quote from: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:39:07 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 29, 2020, 05:27:08 PM
Please don't come back with some pseudo economics bullshit.


Simple supply and demand. If there were not investors buying houses to let, then house prices would drop - and since there are pretty much as many homes as there are folks looking homes - they'd drop to a level where people (who are right now priced out of the market) could actually afford to buy.

Worst is - its only getting harder and harder as investors accumulate more purchasing power off the rent paid by those who are already struggling to save deposits to compete with their landlords in the housing market.

Do you want an answer or do you not? I can answer you easily if you wish but if you've made up your mind already, I'd be only wasting my time.

Your call.

You don't have an answer that isn't grounded in the waffle and shite of your pseudo-economics. Simply because there is no answer.


The market always has a fundamental basis in supply and demand. Removing landlords from the equation suddenly fixes demand as a direct function of population headcount. Which then means prices will drop significantly unless a rake of houses are demolished.

For those that cannot afford a deposit, the price of housing will be such that social housing could easily be acquired by govt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:22:57 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:00:10 AM

You don't have an answer that isn't grounded in the waffle and shite of your pseudo-economics. Simply because there is no answer.

Really? I have explained my reasoning at length in this thread. Your resort to insult suggests you're not particularly interested anyway.

Quote
The market always has a fundamental basis in supply and demand. Removing landlords from the equation suddenly fixes demand as a direct function of population headcount. Which then means prices will drop significantly unless a rake of houses are demolished.

Demand is already a function of population headcount. Had our population declined in the past decade we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. 

In addition, the available housing stock will always diminish unless older homes that are falling into dereliction or disrepair are either renovated or replaced by new housing. There has been little new building or renovation in recent times.

As our population has increased and the net stock of homes has fallen, so prices have risen in response to demand, even as many landlords have exited the market. This basic supply/demand equation will apply regardless of who owns the houses.

You can temporarily fix the prices of homes and their rents but doing so means that you kill any incentive for older homes to be renovated back into use or new ones to be built from scratch. So, as demand continues to increase, more people end up sleeping on other people's couches, in hostels and B&Bs or on the streets, along canals or under bridges.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 30, 2020, 11:58:56 AM
Well lads and ladies now that we're down to the last 8 or 9 days before the vote and we've heard loads of waffle and fairytales - how do ye think it will end up?
Most think FF will be the largest party, FG to drop seats, SF despite their poor show last May to do pretty well and Greens to take up to 10 seats.
While the East and parts of the South are concerned about quality of life issues like traffic jams, commuters, childcare, school places , house prices we in the BMW have the same concerns as we've had for decades-jobs and now the gradual withdrawal of facilities in villages and small towns.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 29, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children's hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There's no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don't realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it's ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we've ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won't see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 12:04:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 30, 2020, 11:58:56 AM
Well lads and ladies now that we're down to the last 8 or 9 days before the vote and we've heard loads of waffle and fairytales - how do ye think it will end up?
Most think FF will be the largest party, FG to drop seats, SF despite their poor show last May to do pretty well and Greens to take up to 10 seats.
While the East and parts of the South are concerned about quality of life issues like traffic jams, commuters, childcare, school places , house prices we in the BMW have the same concerns as we've had for decades-jobs and now the gradual withdrawal of facilities in villages and small towns.

All very true. A friend who is a genuine political insider although tied to no party thinks Varadkar will beat the odds and win. I can't see it but maybe FF's weak leadership (not just Martin) will hurt them. Either way the people's concerns, east and west, will be forgotten for another 4 or 5 years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Taylor on January 30, 2020, 12:13:10 PM
Without having any great insight into politics in the 26 are people going to end up voting for the same party who have shafted them over the years?

Much like Boris and the conservatives.

The alternatives are worse than what is currently in power?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 30, 2020, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 30, 2020, 12:13:10 PM
Without having any great insight into politics in the 26 are people going to end up voting for the same party who have shafted them over the years?

Much like Boris and the conservatives.

The alternatives are worse than what is currently in power?

But what a party did in the distant past isn't relevant to what they'll do next. It's the current people in the party that need to be judged, not the former members.
In my opinion, it was Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan who made the unforgiveable mistakes. They're both gone, so I *could* vote for FF again. 
Of course, fair enough, if people think that it's still too early and there are still important members of the party who were around during Cowen's time and should share the blame.
But I think if you want to have a pop at Micheal Martin, have a pop at him for what he's doing or not doing - not for what previous party members did.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 30, 2020, 01:31:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 30, 2020, 11:58:56 AM
Well lads and ladies now that we're down to the last 8 or 9 days before the vote and we've heard loads of waffle and fairytales - how do ye think it will end up?
Most think FF will be the largest party, FG to drop seats, SF despite their poor show last May to do pretty well and Greens to take up to 10 seats.
Updated odds from the bookies (left column is current odds, right was the odds on January 20th)

Next Taoiseach:

1/7 Martin 1/5
4/1 Varadker 3/1
20/1 Mary Lou 25/1

Next government (need to have a Cabinet Minister to be part of the government, for the purposes of these odds:)

6/1 Fianna Fail/Green 6/1

14/1 FF/SD/Lab/Green 6/1

12/1 Fianna Fail/Independents 8/1

20/1 FG/Lab/SD/Green 10/1

6/1 FF/Green/Independents 10/1

12/1 FF/Lab/Green/Independents 11/1

12/1 FF/Lab/Green 12/1

16/1 Fine Gael/Fianna Fail 12/1

7/1 Fianna Fail/Sinn Fein 12/1

12/1 FF/SF/Independents

16/1 Fine Gael/Green 12/1

16/1 Fianna Fail Minority 14/1

33/1 FG/Green/Independents 14/1

20/1 Fine Gael/Independents 16/1

20/1 Fine Gael/Sinn Fein 18/1

20/1 Fianna Fail Majority 20/1

25/1 Fine Gael Minority 20/1

16/1 Fianna Fail/Labour 20/1

40/1 FG/Lab/Green/Independents 22/1

40/1 FG/Lab/Green 22/1

20/1 FF/Lab/Independents 22/1

33/1 Fine Gael/Labour 25/1

50/1 SF/SD/Lab/Green/PBP
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 30, 2020, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 29, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children's hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There's no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don't realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it's ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we've ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won't see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks

Not spin - as a parent with a child who needed specialised care, this hospital is worth any money for future Irish parents who will need it. The future of work will see many working from home so broadband will be essential. I can still get 15mbps in rural Roscommon so don't see why those types of speed can't be given to rest of rural Ireland. There was lots of things in the past that were seen as a great waste of money that are now seen as good decisions. Knock Airport for example.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 02:00:41 PM
Over a long time period, investment in infrastructure is usually always money well spent.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 02:18:16 PM
Quote from: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:22:57 AM

Quote
The market always has a fundamental basis in supply and demand. Removing landlords from the equation suddenly fixes demand as a direct function of population headcount. Which then means prices will drop significantly unless a rake of houses are demolished.

Demand is already a function of population headcount. Had our population declined in the past decade we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. 

Demand (in Dublin) is currently largely decoupled from price by the existence of landlords (and I obviously include REITs in that).

Remove landlords and price will be much more directly a function of population headcount.


Quote from: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:22:57 AM
In addition, the available housing stock will always diminish unless older homes that are falling into dereliction or disrepair are either renovated or replaced by new housing. There has been little new building or renovation in recent times.

As our population has increased and the net stock of homes has fallen, so prices have risen in response to demand, even as many landlords have exited the market. This basic supply/demand equation will apply regardless of who owns the houses.

There are ~20k new houses built every year in the ROI. Population growth is around 60k/year. Averaging 3 people per house would indicate increased stock is not too disproportionate to demand.

How does a family that is paying a mortgage compete when looking to buy with someone who has the income off the rent of 3 or 4 other houses?

https://www.worldfirst.com/uk/blog/your-money/investing/ireland-retains-top-position-as-europes-buy-to-let-hotspot/

So Real Estate Investment Trusts have been buying up houses that Irish men and women want, but now cannot afford.

Quote from: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:22:57 AM
You can temporarily fix the prices of homes and their rents but doing so means that you kill any incentive for older homes to be renovated back into use or new ones to be built from scratch. So, as demand continues to increase, more people end up sleeping on other people's couches, in hostels and B&Bs or on the streets, along canals or under bridges.

No one sensible, certainly not me (despite my daftness) is proposing "fixing price or rent", indeed, I posted to the exact opposite a few pages back.

Focusing on the reasons for the price rise rather than the price rise itself is the way to solve the problem.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 02:18:16 PM
Demand (in Dublin) is currently largely decoupled from price by the existence of landlords (and I obviously include REITs in that).

Remove landlords and price will be much more directly a function of population headcount.

I have no idea what your point is here. The relationship between price and demand is one of the cornerstones of economics. A landlord who owns 5 or 500 houses doesn't live in all of them. The numbers of people accommodated in them should be more or less the same regardless of how the property is owned. In fact, due to houseshares, its probably arguable that more people per unit are accommodated in an average rental property than in an owner-occupied one. But the difference is neither here nor there.
Quote

There are ~20k new houses built every year in the ROI. Population growth is around 60k/year. Averaging 3 people per house would indicate increased stock is not too disproportionate to demand.

There is also a serious deficit in the housing stock arising from the first half the decade. Only 8,488 dwellings were completed in 2012. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-mip/measuringirelandsprogress2012/economy/economy-housing/

Quote
How does a family that is paying a mortgage compete when looking to buy with someone who has the income off the rent of 3 or 4 other houses?

https://www.worldfirst.com/uk/blog/your-money/investing/ireland-retains-top-position-as-europes-buy-to-let-hotspot/

So Real Estate Investment Trusts have been buying up houses that Irish men and women want, but now cannot afford.

That's all a direct consequence of high rents caused by demand caused by shortage of properties..
Quote

No one sensible, certainly not me (despite my daftness) is proposing "fixing price or rent", indeed, I posted to the exact opposite a few pages back.

Focusing on the reasons for the price rise rather than the price rise itself is the way to solve the problem.

Fair enough.

I don't think we're actually that far off each other in our perspectives here. But there's no way that getting rid of the landlords is going to solve anything. The limited trend in that direction in the past decade has already been catastrophic. There is huge demand for rental accommodation. What happens when all these people have nowhere to go?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 02:41:14 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 30, 2020, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 29, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children's hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There's no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don't realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it's ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we've ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won't see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks

Not spin - as a parent with a child who needed specialised care, this hospital is worth any money for future Irish parents who will need it. The future of work will see many working from home so broadband will be essential. I can still get 15mbps in rural Roscommon so don't see why those types of speed can't be given to rest of rural Ireland. There was lots of things in the past that were seen as a great waste of money that are now seen as good decisions. Knock Airport for example.

I am not arguing against the need for a childrens hospital.

The argument is the fact its the 6th most expensive building ever built and easily three times more expensive than the second most expensive hospital, which was a full campus.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 30, 2020, 03:20:47 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 02:41:14 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 30, 2020, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 29, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children's hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There's no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don't realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it's ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we've ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won't see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks

Not spin - as a parent with a child who needed specialised care, this hospital is worth any money for future Irish parents who will need it. The future of work will see many working from home so broadband will be essential. I can still get 15mbps in rural Roscommon so don't see why those types of speed can't be given to rest of rural Ireland. There was lots of things in the past that were seen as a great waste of money that are now seen as good decisions. Knock Airport for example.

I am not arguing against the need for a childrens hospital.

The argument is the fact its the 6th most expensive building ever built and easily three times more expensive than the second most expensive hospital, which was a full campus.

And I'm saying it and broadband will be money well spent despite the final costs because there's a value there that will serve future generations. I wish we overspent on our rail service back in the day instead of being cheap and pulling up lines and closing stations. Such investments pay off in long term.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 03:37:13 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 30, 2020, 03:20:47 PM
And I'm saying it and broadband will be money well spent despite the final costs because there's a value there that will serve future generations. I wish we overspent on our rail service back in the day instead of being cheap and pulling up lines and closing stations. Such investments pay off in long term.

My fear about the broadband is that they'll end up spending a lot of public money on marginal upgrades in areas that already have decent broadband while continuing to ignore blackspots. Local FG guy told me on Facebook when it was launched that my area would be near the top of the list, but our broadband is actually good enough and has recently enough been upgraded.

And we did overspend, ridiculously, on the railways back in the day. Most of that money was lost. The decision to shut them all down came over a half a century later when ordinary people started buying cars.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: five points on January 30, 2020, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 02:18:16 PM
Demand (in Dublin) is currently largely decoupled from price by the existence of landlords (and I obviously include REITs in that).

Remove landlords and price will be much more directly a function of population headcount.

I have no idea what your point is here. The relationship between price and demand is one of the cornerstones of economics. A landlord who owns 5 or 500 houses doesn't live in all of them. The numbers of people accommodated in them should be more or less the same regardless of how the property is owned. In fact, due to houseshares, its probably arguable that more people per unit are accommodated in an average rental property than in an owner-occupied one. But the difference is neither here nor there.

Landlords have greater purchasing power than renters looking to save for a house.

It is landlords competing with each other to buy more property that is pushing prices up.

Its fairly simple.

Demand for a house due to the need for shelter is not the same as demand for a house due to a want for an investment.

It is the latter that is doing (or has done) much of the damage for prices.


How can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices? Because those renting simply cannot save enough to buy! The landlords have their property "portfolio" and are pulling the ladder up swiftly behind them.


Quote from: five points on January 30, 2020, 02:33:32 PM
That's all a direct consequence of high rents caused by demand caused by shortage of properties..

No indeed it is not.

If you have a house on the market, and several investors are interested in it as well as several buy-to-live in; which do you think has the most purchasing power to buy it?


Yes, the govt needs to dramatically increase the number of apartments/houses available - but they also need to kick buy-to-let firmly into the bin. Be they foreign or indigenous investors - the cost of owning and renting a house should be utterly obscene in order to force folks to sell up. So what if it causes a bit of a collapse back in house prices - the longer term benefits far outweigh the transients.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 30, 2020, 07:30:57 PM
QuoteHow can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices?

Because there are not enough landlords renting houses?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 30, 2020, 08:02:54 PM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:45:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2020, 07:30:57 PM
QuoteHow can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices?

Because there are not enough landlords renting houses?

Because people can't afford the mortgage deposit.

Otherwise they'd buy that very house they are renting and pay off the mortgage on it instead.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:46:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2020, 08:02:54 PM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.

Indeed. There needs to be a bit of a rinsing unfortunately - but it'd be better for everyone in the long run.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:50:11 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:46:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2020, 08:02:54 PM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.

Indeed. There needs to be a bit of a rinsing unfortunately - but it'd be better for everyone in the long run.
Be careful what you wish for. "Rinsings" rarely end well, least of all those at the bottom of the heap.  The 2008 one for example.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:55:33 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:45:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 30, 2020, 07:30:57 PM
QuoteHow can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices?

Because there are not enough landlords renting houses?

Because people can't afford the mortgage deposit.

Otherwise they'd buy that very house they are renting and pay off the mortgage on it instead.

The high number of twenty-something foreign-born workers renting apartments in the Dublin docklands have no interest in buying homes in Dublin. Nor have thousands of young Irish workers of the same age group.Getting rid of landlords means getting rid of these people.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 30, 2020, 11:13:07 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Ivan Yates ruined the debate from the start - all about him.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:30:12 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 30, 2020, 11:13:07 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Ivan Yates ruined the debate from the start - all about him.

How does an ex FG TD get to host a debate and then shouts at everyone for an hour. A joke.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 31, 2020, 08:59:39 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 30, 2020, 08:02:54 PM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.

It's not a moratorium. State social housing is a thing of the past. It worked fine when a council could build for £20k a unit and slip a tradesman a few bob in cash to do the snag list. Now at €250k a pop and with all bells and whistles of regulation, it's beyond unaffordable.

I wish it were otherwise and like you I'll gladly support the deregulation of the building industry to make social housing happen again, but I'm afraid the clocks aren't turning back anytime soon. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Quote from: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 31, 2020, 11:53:58 AM
Get used to it folks.
The new All Ireland entity will have lots  of special provisions for the people currently described as Unionists.
Meanwhile the outcome of this election will likely cause months of negotiations like 2016 before a Government is put together.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Quote from: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 31, 2020, 01:28:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Quote from: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 31, 2020, 01:28:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Quote from: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?

Yes there is. Given how the black and tan commeration went that is now cancelled (not Leo said cancelled last night, not postponed) I doubt any of tha main parties would be canvassing for partition
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 31, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:55:33 PM
The high number of twenty-something foreign-born workers renting apartments in the Dublin docklands have no interest in buying homes in Dublin. Nor have thousands of young Irish workers of the same age group.Getting rid of landlords means getting rid of these people.

Yes... because every one of them would rather pay twice the mortgage amount in rent instead.

Would you ever listen to yourself ffs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Quote from: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.

I am a republican but I have to admit that 50% +1 will not be a good foundation for a peaceful, prosperous or harmonious united ireland. SF are wrong on this and they tore strips off Eastwood for saying it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 02:20:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 31, 2020, 01:28:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Quote from: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?

Yes there is. Given how the black and tan commeration went that is now cancelled (not Leo said cancelled last night, not postponed) I doubt any of tha main parties would be canvassing for partition

People will not decide with their hearts. They will decide with logic if an UI is feasible. The black and tans thing will be forgotten, just the same way people have quickly forgotten SF's support to similar projects in the North
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 02:20:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 31, 2020, 01:28:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Quote from: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?

Yes there is. Given how the black and tan commeration went that is now cancelled (not Leo said cancelled last night, not postponed) I doubt any of tha main parties would be canvassing for partition

People will not decide with their hearts. They will decide with logic if an UI is feasible. The black and tans thing will be forgotten, just the same way people have quickly forgotten SF's support to similar projects in the North

People will decide with whatever they want to decide, whether it be heart or head.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
Sorry if I've posted this already but David McWilliams posted an interesting podcast (all of his stuff is interesting IMHO) about the differences not so much between FF and FG, but between the people who support them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEG8UncZ6VY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEG8UncZ6VY)

The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

So it's a bit like saying GAA types would be likely to vote FF, and rugby types would be likely to vote FG.

I find McWilliams is very good at spotting different 'types' of people around the country and the different ways they think, the way they spend their money and so on.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 07:10:38 AM
Great podcast! Very interesting viewpoint..always thought of FG as med to large farmers, elite professionals, protestants and journalists, while FF as the peasants, working class and business owners. But he takes it to another level with this old english thing. Tho in saying that it should be pointed out the Norman's are more likely to be at the hurling than rugby
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on January 31, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:55:33 PM
The high number of twenty-something foreign-born workers renting apartments in the Dublin docklands have no interest in buying homes in Dublin. Nor have thousands of young Irish workers of the same age group.Getting rid of landlords means getting rid of these people.

Yes... because every one of them would rather pay twice the mortgage amount in rent instead.

Would you ever listen to yourself ffs.

Will you ever stop with the personal insults?

You really think that every single Irish twenty-something living the dream for a few years in Australia wants to lumber themselves with a huge mortgage for a house or apartment that they probably won't want in 5 years time?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 02, 2020, 11:37:32 AM
Haughey led FF off the right road. There remains a pre Haughey DNA in FF, which may have other shortcomings but it is not corrupt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 02, 2020, 12:39:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 02, 2020, 11:37:32 AM
Haughey led FF off the right road. There remains a pre Haughey DNA in FF, which may have other shortcomings but it is not corrupt.
Bullshit. Dev was fond of a bung, he trousered Republicsn bonds and raised the Irish Press for personal gain. Taca was shaking down property developers in the 60s.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 02, 2020, 12:39:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 02, 2020, 11:37:32 AM
Haughey led FF off the right road. There remains a pre Haughey DNA in FF, which may have other shortcomings but it is not corrupt.
Bullshit. Dev was fond of a bung, he trousered Republicsn bonds and raised the Irish Press for personal gain. Taca was shaking down property developers in the 60s.

Absolutely.

Dev was the arguably the biggest snake of the lot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 02, 2020, 01:23:11 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.
Outside the FF & FG  traditional base of voters i'd say the public perception of any differences have  significantly diminished during the propped up government era and now both parties comically simulating ideological clashes and throwing snowballs at each other.
FF are peddling a subsidy of sorts for new house buyers which in the end just benefits their support base, the builders and property inflation.
The perception of an Ireland having done well under FG and a dormant FF is not finding traction with hard pressed middle income groups never mind the lower incomes. This could be an interesting election.




Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 02, 2020, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 02, 2020, 01:23:11 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.
Outside the FF & FG  traditional base of voters i'd say the public perception of any differences have  significantly diminished during the propped up government era and now both parties comically simulating ideological clashes and throwing snowballs at each other.
FF are peddling a subsidy of sorts for new house buyers which in the end just benefits their support base, the builders and property inflation.
The perception of an Ireland having done well under FG and a dormant FF is not finding traction with hard pressed middle income groups never mind the lower incomes. This could be an interesting election.

Yeah, both sides of the same coin this past few years so very hard for voters to tell what is the difference between them these days.  Is there any? 

Even in the general to-ing and fro-ing of this general election campaign, there doesn't seem to be any major animosity between them.  Their focus seems to be a joint effort to rebuke SF at every opportunity.

Best case is FG's ad of No to SF in government ad with all their big players saying a resounding no.  But they never thought it through as SF, Labour and the Greens have altered it to stuff like - Will FG build more houses if re-elected or will FG implement more environmentally friendly policies etc. to which all the hit hitters of FG say No, not a chance etc.  The PR king who never thought that ad campaign through won't be getting a bonus I'd say.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2020, 02:06:33 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Well this is the first I've heard of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 03, 2020, 04:47:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.

I think it is a wee bit more complicated than that.... as there is an obivious difference in the perceptions of the two and definitely a difference in who their core support is. So yes FF & FG were born out of the civil war but who fell on what side of the line and why really gets to the route of the divide
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 10:30:21 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2020, 02:06:33 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Well this is the first I've heard of it.

That's exactly how he operates.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 03, 2020, 11:45:35 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 03, 2020, 01:09:00 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 03, 2020, 11:45:35 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?

Not sure tbh but the Charlie to Bertie era was particularly bad
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on February 03, 2020, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???

They've a chance of getting the last seat in Mayo.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 01:22:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???

Paddy Power thinks SF will get 2 in Cavan/Monaghan.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???

I'd expect 2 to be returned in Cavan/Monaghan, should be in with a shout of a couple in Meath.

They currently also have TDs in  Waterford, Carlow-Kilkenny and Wicklow.

I'd expect they will hit 30 seats.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 03, 2020, 04:47:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.

I think it is a wee bit more complicated than that.... as there is an obivious difference in the perceptions of the two and definitely a difference in who their core support is. So yes FF & FG were born out of the civil war but who fell on what side of the line and why really gets to the route of the divide

You asked, I am telling you it is no more complicated than that. I estimate around 30% will vote along family lines and  they have no idea where those family decisions came from. That 30% drops every year as the newest generations are starting to think for themselves. There is no major policy differences between FF and FG, that is just a fact.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 02:09:41 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 01:57:56 PM
You asked, I am telling you it is no more complicated than that. I estimate around 30% will vote along family lines and  they have no idea where those family decisions came from. That 30% drops every year as the newest generations are starting to think for themselves. There is no major policy differences between FF and FG, that is just a fact.

The 1997 election was probably the last one when a large number of people voted along family lines. FG were decimated in 2002 and FF eventually in 2011.

The idea that younger voters "think for themselves" is highly debatable.  People tend these days to vote by instinct.

And there are major differences between FF and FG. For example, FF would never have let a housing crisis develop without having the builders build houses to fix it. When FF does this in government, the FG opposition will lacerate them for daring to solve their mess. All depressingly predictable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 02:10:28 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 03, 2020, 01:09:00 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 03, 2020, 11:45:35 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?

Not sure tbh but the Charlie to Bertie era was particularly bad
You need to go back a bit but John Bruton used to have a portrait of the three statesmen/politicians he admired most hanging in his Taoiseach's office. One was Michael Collins, another was W.T. Cosgrave and the third was Sean Lemass.
Being FG himself. you could expect the first two but a former FF Taoiseach?
Bruton reckoned Lemass was the founder of modern Ireland, who put the good of the country above party politics and his word was his deed, as the old saying puts it.
I'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.
Mick  Martin? Personally okay but suspicious of a few others in the party. FG? Don't believe the bull poo about them  always dedicated to the public good and always ready to do their duty and step in to clean up the mess left by FF.
Fact is, everytime they took over, they got effed out again at the very next election until Enda barely managed to get re-elected in 2016.
Obviously, the electorate was never too happy with their attempts to serve the public good!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
QuoteI'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.

Maybe I've a bad memory but I can't recall even a hint that Albert Reynolds was ever corrupt or took money from anyone?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 06:21:57 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Car sites! Damn the spell checker..I mean candidates.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 02:10:28 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 03, 2020, 01:09:00 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 03, 2020, 11:45:35 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?

Not sure tbh but the Charlie to Bertie era was particularly bad
You need to go back a bit but John Bruton used to have a portrait of the three statesmen/politicians he admired most hanging in his Taoiseach's office. One was Michael Collins, another was W.T. Cosgrave and the third was Sean Lemass.
Being FG himself. you could expect the first two but a former FF Taoiseach?
Bruton reckoned Lemass was the founder of modern Ireland, who put the good of the country above party politics and his word was his deed, as the old saying puts it.
I'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.
Mick  Martin? Personally okay but suspicious of a few others in the party. FG? Don't believe the bull poo about them  always dedicated to the public good and always ready to do their duty and step in to clean up the mess left by FF.
Fact is, everytime they took over, they got effed out again at the very next election until Enda barely managed to get re-elected in 2016.
Obviously, the electorate was never too happy with their attempts to serve the public good!!

Odd that Lord Bruton admired Collins and Lemass as both were terrorists by his logic and he hated militant resistance.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 06:37:18 PM
Election postponed in Tipperary as one of the candidates has died.
The whole nomination process has to be gone through again with voting taking place near the end of February.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2020, 06:49:47 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 02:10:28 PM

You need to go back a bit but John Bruton used to have a portrait of the three statesmen/politicians he admired most hanging in his Taoiseach's office. One was Michael Collins, another was W.T. Cosgrave and the third was Sean Lemass.
Being FG himself. you could expect the first two but a former FF Taoiseach?
Bruton reckoned Lemass was the founder of modern Ireland, who put the good of the country above party politics and his word was his deed, as the old saying puts it.
I'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.
Mick  Martin? Personally okay but suspicious of a few others in the party. FG? Don't believe the bull poo about them  always dedicated to the public good and always ready to do their duty and step in to clean up the mess left by FF.
Fact is, everytime they took over, they got effed out again at the very next election until Enda barely managed to get re-elected in 2016.
Obviously, the electorate was never too happy with their attempts to serve the public good!!

Reynolds? I thought of him as a bit of an anomaly in FF. He was an outsider, coming from the world of business rather than politics. He purged the Haugheyites from the cabinet as soon as he got in. An underrated Taoiseach IMHO. It was a slip-up that took his government down. I'm not sure if I'd count him as one of the rogues.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 06:59:50 PM
He was a Ros native who brought peace to Ireland.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 06:21:57 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)

None of those suggest, even now, that Reynolds was corrupt or ever took money off anyone.

There was never any suggestion that the Goodman shenanigans ever financially benefitted Reynolds.

The passports thing was probably a conflict of interest but there was no suggestion of corruption.

The controversial Harry Whelehan appointment had nothing to do with money and was anyway only a bottle of smoke with a few barristers annoyed that their Buggins Turn appointment had fallen through.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 07:21:48 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 06:21:57 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)

None of those suggest, even now, that Reynolds was corrupt or ever took money off anyone.

There was never any suggestion that the Goodman shenanigans ever financially benefitted Reynolds.

The passports thing was probably a conflict of interest but there was no suggestion of corruption.

The controversial Harry Whelehan appointment had nothing to do with money and was anyway only a bottle of smoke with a few barristers annoyed that their Buggins Turn appointment had fallen through.
There were serious allegations that the passports were in return for investment in C and D foods for one
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:32:02 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 07:21:48 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 06:21:57 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)

None of those suggest, even now, that Reynolds was corrupt or ever took money off anyone.

There was never any suggestion that the Goodman shenanigans ever financially benefitted Reynolds.

The passports thing was probably a conflict of interest but there was no suggestion of corruption.

The controversial Harry Whelehan appointment had nothing to do with money and was anyway only a bottle of smoke with a few barristers annoyed that their Buggins Turn appointment had fallen through.
There were serious allegations that the passports were in return for investment in C and D foods for one

Allegations of conflict of interest. None of corruption.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:33:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:33:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.

You're defending the indefensible. I'd say you're a firm believer in happy coincidences.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:33:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.

You're defending the indefensible. I'd say you're a firm believer in happy coincidences.

A Shinner lectures on defending the indefensible. My sides.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 08:03:41 PM
Voting in the general election in the Tipperary constituency will be postponed after Independent candidate Marese Skehan from Thurles was found dead at her home on Monday.

Independent Mattie McGrath is seeking legal advice in a bid to avoid postponement of General Election vote in Tipperary. If that's not possible he says he would go to the courts to seek to delay the election in all constituencies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Capt Pat on February 03, 2020, 08:23:21 PM
I don't see why they have to postpone the election in Tipperary. It seems a bit pointless to postpone it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 08:32:52 PM
Legislation dealing with such a scenario, when a candidate dies before polling commences, outlines how the returning officer must cancel the poll.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1992/act/23/section/62/enacted/en/html#sec62
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 08:50:16 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on February 03, 2020, 08:23:21 PM
I don't see why they have to postpone the election in Tipperary. It seems a bit pointless to postpone it.
Its the Law ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 09:16:21 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:33:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.

You're defending the indefensible. I'd say you're a firm believer in happy coincidences.

A Shinner lectures on defending the indefensible. My sides.

Given that the free state turned their back on northern nationalists and let them defenceless in a sectarian statelet then I'm sure you'll appreciate that there's a large dose of irony to Michael Martin pontificating to SF about defending their communities.

There seems to be a lot of chaps like you on here who can't state their own political allegiances yet consistently run down SF. Like you they deny voting for FF/FG, the shame of it all is too much for them when they get up on their soap box.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on February 03, 2020, 09:39:27 PM
Latest Irish Times poll of 1200 people over last weekend.

Sinn Féin 25
Fianna Fáíl 23
Fine Gael 20
Greens 8
Labour 4
Social Democrats 2
Sol- People Before Profit 2
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 03, 2020, 09:41:13 PM
Latest poll has SF in the lead which is a major surprise but just shows the disillusionment with the 2 main parties. How this plays out in terms of the formation of the next government is anyone's guess. If FF/FG continue to rule out SF in government it could be a rainbow coalition or another C & S arrangement.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 09:55:53 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 03, 2020, 09:41:13 PM
Latest poll has SF in the lead which is a major surprise but just shows the disillusionment with the 2 main parties. How this plays out in terms of the formation of the next government is anyone's guess. If FF/FG continue to rule out SF in government it could be a rainbow coalition or another C & S arrangement.

It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 03, 2020, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 09:55:53 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 03, 2020, 09:41:13 PM
Latest poll has SF in the lead which is a major surprise but just shows the disillusionment with the 2 main parties. How this plays out in terms of the formation of the next government is anyone's guess. If FF/FG continue to rule out SF in government it could be a rainbow coalition or another C & S arrangement.

It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

It's certainly not out of the question if the polls translate into election results and might provide a route to forming a stable coalition. However there would still be a major rump of discontentment among the population were that to actually materialise.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 10:19:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 09:55:53 PM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 10:47:36 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 10:19:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 09:55:53 PM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?

Fair ppint
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 04, 2020, 10:36:45 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 03, 2020, 04:47:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.

I think it is a wee bit more complicated than that.... as there is an obivious difference in the perceptions of the two and definitely a difference in who their core support is. So yes FF & FG were born out of the civil war but who fell on what side of the line and why really gets to the route of the divide
Of course there are two distinct paths in history for FF and FG, but over time their policies have merged politically in the Dail as to make no difference, this perception was reinforced by one propping up the other.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on February 04, 2020, 11:08:15 AM
Mary Lou will have to perform like never before tonight because I'm sure the boys will gang up on her...

Conor Murphy/Paul Quinn
Ard Comhairle
Tax policies

Its doubtful though whether they can land a knockout blow on SF at this late stage. I was looking at the projections this morning we're very near the point where others would be the biggest group

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:20:12 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:32:57 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:20:12 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:32:57 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:20:12 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.

Will a Saturday vote bring a bigger youth turnout on polling day?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 04, 2020, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:39:05 AM
Will a Saturday vote bring a bigger youth turnout on polling day?

Something wrong if it doesn't.

You gotta laugh at Varadkar. This was his cunning plan to exploit his fake "down with the kids" persona.  ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:45:37 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:32:57 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:20:12 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.

Will a Saturday vote bring a bigger youth turnout on polling day?

Its possible, I bet if Leo had his time over again he wouldnt have chosen a Saturday! In fairness I think turnout is a big unknown, how pissed off are the young people and how willing are they to put down their mobiles and go out and vote? One very interesting thing was that the Greens only scored 7% I think in the youngest group polled yesterday, SF I think were in the 30s which is incredible (going by memory here as cant find it online)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on February 04, 2020, 11:49:05 AM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 10:19:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 09:55:53 PM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?
They haven't, but when the likes of you treat supporting SF like it was your football team that's the sort of shite that will be spouted.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:52:05 AM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on February 04, 2020, 11:49:05 AM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 10:19:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 09:55:53 PM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?
They haven't, but when the likes of you treat supporting SF like it was your football team that's the sort of shite that will be spouted.

Well one propped the other up for the term of this government and there are hardly any differences between their politics so I am not sure what you are getting annoyed about. Whats the difference between Eamonn Scanlon and Thomas Walsh and John Perry in Sligo, sweet FA I would say.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 04, 2020, 11:52:20 AM
Quote from: Boycey on February 04, 2020, 11:08:15 AM
Mary Lou will have to perform like never before tonight because I'm sure the boys will gang up on her...

Conor Murphy/Paul Quinn
Ard Comhairle
Tax policies

Its doubtful though whether they can land a knockout blow on SF at this late stage. I was looking at the projections this morning we're very near the point where others would be the biggest group

The impact of these debates are often overstated and unless anyone of them drops a clanger I really don't see it changing much in terms of swaying peoples opinions. The media love to hype them up however and if they pick up on something they can set the news agenda for a period afterwards.

In a PR election, transfers will be just as important as first preference votes and the fact that FF & FG combined have less than 50% of the vote based on polls could make it really difficult when forming a government. It will likely be FF and some other combination but the numbers may well leave them with little option but to consider a coalition with either FG or SF. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 04, 2020, 12:35:07 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:45:37 AM

Its possible, I bet if Leo had his time over again he wouldnt have chosen a Saturday! In fairness I think turnout is a big unknown, how pissed off are the young people and how willing are they to put down their mobiles and go out and vote? One very interesting thing was that the Greens only scored 7% I think in the youngest group polled yesterday, SF I think were in the 30s which is incredible (going by memory here as cant find it online)

I'd say Leo regrets not calling the election in Oct/Nov when public sentiment was that he'd done a very good job on Brexit. Now that it's all done and dusted, it's old news.

The Greens got off to a great start, because anyone with sense knows the environment's a huge issue. Unfortunately, the Greens acknowledged that we'll all have to sacrifice, even if it's only a little bit. Whereas SF are saying someone else is going to be pay for everything!

There might well be near enough full employment, and you're able to go on holidays every year, you're able pay for Netflix every month and you've got your X-Box, but there's a fooker around the corner with a bigger house and a bigger car. He can pay for it! Up the Shinners, what's not to love?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 04, 2020, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 04, 2020, 12:35:07 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:45:37 AM

Its possible, I bet if Leo had his time over again he wouldnt have chosen a Saturday! In fairness I think turnout is a big unknown, how pissed off are the young people and how willing are they to put down their mobiles and go out and vote? One very interesting thing was that the Greens only scored 7% I think in the youngest group polled yesterday, SF I think were in the 30s which is incredible (going by memory here as cant find it online)

I'd say Leo regrets not calling the election in Oct/Nov when public sentiment was that he'd done a very good job on Brexit. Now that it's all done and dusted, it's old news.

The Greens got off to a great start, because anyone with sense knows the environment's a huge issue. Unfortunately, the Greens acknowledged that we'll all have to sacrifice, even if it's only a little bit. Whereas SF are saying someone else is going to be pay for everything!

There might well be near enough full employment, and you're able to go on holidays every year, you're able pay for Netflix every month and you've got your X-Box, but there's a fooker around the corner with a bigger house and a bigger car. He can pay for it! Up the Shinners, what's not to love?

They probably thought there was no chance that they would be in government prior to their manifesto being drawn up so they could say what they wanted. Most people simply don't look into the details as we have seen in recent elections elsewhere. Now there is an outside chance that they could be part of a coalition government with FF or FG. In which case they can hide behind the bigger parties policies. However if that came to pass I think they would suffer a similar fate to the Labour party as a minority partner.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 04, 2020, 01:34:02 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:32:57 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:20:12 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.
SF gained 9 seats in 2012 and another 9 in 2016.
It is a party which is progressively building a solid base, not just a so called vote of discontent. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 04, 2020, 01:37:55 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

Not entirely true, it would seem. On Newstalk the other day, an analyst of some description was on talking about previous elections, and noted that Sinn Féin only finish well below early campaign polls, but that the most accurate polls tend to be those done in the final week of an election, and that in the last few elections, the 'final week' polls were very close to getting SF's actual % correct, with the party typically only ending up around 1% below the predictions.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Harold Disgracey on February 04, 2020, 02:29:51 PM
De réir phobalbhreith TG4 / Ipsos MRBI, tá baol ann go gcaillfidh Danny Healy Rae a shuíochán

Danny Healy Rae in trouble according to a poll to be released on TG4 this evening!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
That's what he gets for not wearing a cap!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 04, 2020, 04:12:46 PM
Never underestimate SF; their's is a long-term strategy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2020, 04:21:13 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-tipperary-vote-postponed-after-candidate-dies-1.4160576
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 04, 2020, 04:25:11 PM
Off-shore islands used vote a couple of days ahead of mainland constituencies, but only have their ballot papers counted along with the rest at the main count, presumably in case their votes would give biased direction to other voters (?). In light of that, would it not seem proper to delay the main count until the reconstituted Tipp voting has taken place? Is there a precedent for this? It's different from a by-election after all.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 04:33:24 PM
Happened in Council elections in Roscommon in 2004 in the Ros Town electoral area.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 04, 2020, 05:01:44 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

Homelessness is a (greater) issue in many western/EU countries. As are health services. Children's hospital is a bad look alright. FG inherited a lot of FF-made problems and have made a fair fist of righting them. Do you think SF would have been able to do likewise? Do you really think SF, under control by 'shadowy forces', would have the nous, freedom or capability to run an economy? Don't trust them or give into silly opinion-poll propaganda. Vote with the house, it's safest.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2020, 05:18:09 PM
People want change but until a Government is elected with a mandate to take on the vested interests who control the country there will only be tweaks.

« No matter how well written or delivered, a speech cannot divert whole societies from a well established course of action. Policies in motion tend to stay in motion ; to change the trajectory of a deeply embedded set of initiatives requires the application of political forces of equal motion » Steve Walt

Gilmore  said "Frankfurt's way or Labour's way" in 2011 and look what happened to them after they signed off on austerity.

Changing Ireland is going to mean a serious drop in house prices, higher interest rates, reforming the Civil Service, the health Service etc plus big taxes on wealth.
If I were Mary Lou I wouldn't go into Government now. There is a crash in the works and whoever is in power will own it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 05:35:06 PM
Jases Seafóid are you George Lee? :D :'(
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2020, 06:00:00 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 05:35:06 PM
Jases Seafóid are you George Lee? :D :'(

I'm just interested in the big picture. It's a system like any other with its own rules.
https://monthlyreview.org/2011/03/01/structural-crisis-in-the-world-system/

BTW Roscommon might have a better chance of winning an all Ireland under the next economic system.
Cavan , Mayo and Ros all won their Sams in one 20 year period - 1933 to 1952 - where Dublin was neglected.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 04, 2020, 06:37:40 PM
Think the boyos need to forget attacking Mary Lou on IRA past. It's not a vote loser for Sinn Fein anymore. But they should come under scrutiny for their anti-European past. They have campaigned I believe against every major treaty including joining EEC. You could replace all their quotes with Nigel Farage and you would not know the difference. They are actually no different than the anti-EU populism that has been rising, except they are left wing. By a stroke of luck, the DUP backed Brexit, completely taking the focus off Sinn Fein's anti-EU history. But in no way would they have been able to manage Brexit the way FG did, in particular because FG are members of the same party as all those who supported us in the negotiations. Eg Donald Tusk, etc. Brexit is not a vote getter, but I would put down to Irish people taking it for granted. Still has the potential to completely unravel the economy and don't be surprised if under new gov, we take our eye off the ball, and that customs border comes back. Boris and his tricks have not gone away
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 04, 2020, 07:28:07 PM
Anybody hazard a guess on turn out on Saturday?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 04, 2020, 07:35:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

Totally agree Itchy - you'd swear the FG/FF were the most prudent advisors of all things on the economy this past 15 years.

What a mess they made of this country.

Nobody should be taking economical lectures from them.  What about the broadband roll out? - Mmmmm, one tender will do grand.  Give them a bucket of money sure, it'll be grand.  Sure we don't need the money.  No waiting lists, nobody on trollies and everybody has a house....oh, wait!!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 04, 2020, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 04, 2020, 05:01:44 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

Homelessness is a (greater) issue in many western/EU countries. As are health services. Children's hospital is a bad look alright. FG inherited a lot of FF-made problems and have made a fair fist of righting them. Do you think SF would have been able to do likewise? Do you really think SF, under control by 'shadowy forces', would have the nous, freedom or capability to run an economy? Don't trust them or give into silly opinion-poll propaganda. Vote with the house, it's safest.

Do you write for the Indo or work for RTÉ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Art Mc Crory’s Sofa on February 04, 2020, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You've never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children's hospital are 3rd world.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: Art Mc Crory's Sofa on February 04, 2020, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You've never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children's hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 09:32:53 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

People need to keep a sense of proportion. The economy has grown by a quarter in the last Dáil term and there were a quarter of a million more  jobs. Almost any other country in the developed world would have given their left arm to have that. Hospital services have shortcomings, but talk of their being third world is bollix.
I think there should be a change of government, as spending control was not competent, but you have to look at this as they are, not some myth.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:39:20 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 09:44:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:39:20 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

I can only agree that it is an absolute disgrace and it has in fact got worse under this government. It isn't the totality of the health service though.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 04, 2020, 10:06:27 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 04, 2020, 07:28:07 PM
Anybody hazard a guess on turn out on Saturday?

67%.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:13:06 PM
Why is the sister of an incoming FF minister being allowed chair an election debate on the state broadcaster with the 3 main party leaders a few days before an election?

It reminds me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXxjQpEYqM
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:58:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on February 04, 2020, 11:18:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:39:20 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

Given that the sub-saharan life expectancy is 61.2 I'd say your proffering an opinion that's plainly wrong.

The health service/state has done a good job of getting your uncle in law to the age of 85 especially considering that he has a major chronic illness. No being disrespectful but it's 85 year olds with chronic illness least in need of urgent care. The health service prioritises, as it should, younger patients with more serious and acute conditions where medical intervention can have the greatest effect.

Whilst it may seem inhumane that the elderly should have to wait in trolleys it's a simple fact that there's very little that hospitals can do for them, they're at the limit of what is medically possible especially those with chronic disease.

I think it was Hardy who said "people in the Western world suffer from Joe Duffyitis, that is, the belief no money should be spent on anything else but the health service until people stop dying".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:58:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:28:55 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 04, 2020, 11:18:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:39:20 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

Given that the sub-saharan life expectancy is 61.2 I'd say your proffering an opinion that's plainly wrong.

The health service/state has done a good job of getting your uncle in law to the age of 85 especially considering that he has a major chronic illness. No being disrespectful but it's 85 year olds with chronic illness least in need of urgent care. The health service prioritises, as it should, younger patients with more serious and acute conditions where medical intervention can have the greatest effect.

Whilst it may seem inhumane that the elderly should have to wait in trolleys it's a simple fact that there's very little that hospitals can do for them, they're at the limit of what is medically possible especially those with chronic disease.

I think it was Hardy who said "people in the Western world suffer from Joe Duffyitis, that is, the belief no money should be spent on anything else but the health service until people stop dying".

Thanks,
I'll pass that on and tell him hes lucky to be alive and should suck it up when younger people are seen to first. Sure he will be dead soon anyway.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:58:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.

Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically?

Now, to answer the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:32:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:58:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.



Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically? Why does it exist?

Now, to ask the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on February 04, 2020, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:28:55 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 04, 2020, 11:18:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:39:20 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

Given that the sub-saharan life expectancy is 61.2 I'd say your proffering an opinion that's plainly wrong.

The health service/state has done a good job of getting your uncle in law to the age of 85 especially considering that he has a major chronic illness. No being disrespectful but it's 85 year olds with chronic illness least in need of urgent care. The health service prioritises, as it should, younger patients with more serious and acute conditions where medical intervention can have the greatest effect.

Whilst it may seem inhumane that the elderly should have to wait in trolleys it's a simple fact that there's very little that hospitals can do for them, they're at the limit of what is medically possible especially those with chronic disease.

I think it was Hardy who said "people in the Western world suffer from Joe Duffyitis, that is, the belief no money should be spent on anything else but the health service until people stop dying".

Thanks,
I'll pass that on and tell him hes lucky to be alive and should suck it up when younger people are seen to first. Sure he will be dead soon anyway.

Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:40:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:58:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.

Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically?

Now, to answer the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?

They already have a plan to deal with funding pensions, which has been agreed for years. FG failed to properly regulate private companies laying people off at 65, but that can be changed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 04, 2020, 11:47:39 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 09:32:53 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

People need to keep a sense of proportion. The economy has grown by a quarter in the last Dáil term and there were a quarter of a million more  jobs. Almost any other country in the developed world would have given their left arm to have that. Hospital services have shortcomings, but talk of their being third world is bollix.
I think there should be a change of government, as spending control was not competent, but you have to look at this as they are, not some myth.

(https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/4464549/original/?width=630&version=4464549)

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 04, 2020, 11:50:49 PM
Said it beforehand but SF would have been better served if Mary Lou has been excluded from the debate tonight. The main winners tonight were the parties who weren't there. Same tired rhetoric from FF and FG and some of SF policies don't really stand up under scrutiny. It was always likely that RTE would bring up a bogeyman from the past in terms of the Paul Quinn death and whilst they do have skeletons as a party, Mary Lou does get a hard time from the media in comparison to others who were actually involved in some of the atrocities. For a party still in a semi transition phase, it could take a few more terms before they become electable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:04:10 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:40:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:58:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.

Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically?

Now, to answer the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?

They already have a plan to deal with funding pensions, which has been agreed for years. FG failed to properly regulate private companies laying people off at 65, but that can be changed.

You said FF and FG didn't create the pension crisis. There's no getting around the fact they did create it, I'm asking you if you trust the two parties who created a pension crisis to solve it?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 05, 2020, 09:07:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: Art Mc Crory's Sofa on February 04, 2020, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You've never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children's hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:22:11 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 05, 2020, 09:07:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: Art Mc Crory's Sofa on February 04, 2020, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You've never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children's hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.

The health service is the toilet and the homeless crisis continues to spiral out of control.

But hey, there's a booming economy as wealth inequality sores.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??

Well SF is a side issue to what is being denied at the minute.

FF/FG are the cause of the pension crisis, so why on earth would anyone trust them to sort it?

As regards how to solve it, the issue is not necessarily the pension age that is the issue - it's the level of pensions and associated benefits alone being hoovered up by high ranking retired public and civil servants and even the ones at the lower level. That's a creation of FF and FG, for many years these bloated pensions were UNFUNDED. Enda Kenny has retired now and gets a pot of €2m and a and an annual pension of €126k, it would cost €5m of contributions in the private sector. For years and years and years, FF and FG were asleep at the wheel regarding this.

A huge pension deficit was created that FF and FG did not put in place contributions to fund it, it's a making entirely of their policies and complete incompetence.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:51:31 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/96c9cab286f159f811c81db47a6448da/tenor.gif?itemid=4420974)

FFS. People still listen to that tripe?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.

You might be right that for most of the time they're not highlighting the Paul Quinn case.
But the reason they're highlighting it now is to remind the electorate of the shady dealings SF are involved in, that these people are still involved in SF today at high office and this issue occurred after the GFA, so cases like this can hardly be described as "victims of the conflict" as you put it.
Murder is still a lot more serious than vote-gate or swing-gate, and rightly so.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:57:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??

Well SF is a side issue to what is being denied at the minute.

FF/FG are the cause of the pension crisis, so why on earth would anyone trust them to sort it?

As regards how to solve it, the issue is not necessarily the pension age that is the issue - it's the level of pensions and associated benefits alone being hoovered up by high ranking retired public and civil servants and even the ones at the lower level. That's a creation of FF and FG, for many years these bloated pensions were UNFUNDED. Enda Kenny has retired now and gets a pot of €2m and a and an annual pension of €126k, it would cost €5m of contributions in the private sector. For years and years and years, FF and FG were asleep at the wheel regarding this.

A huge pension deficit was created that FF and FG did not put in place contributions to fund it, it's a making entirely of their policies and complete incompetence.

How are they a side issue!? They're asking people to vote for them, so people are entitled to ask how are they going to fix the issue.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 10:06:13 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:57:09 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??

Well SF is a side issue to what is being denied at the minute.

FF/FG are the cause of the pension crisis, so why on earth would anyone trust them to sort it?

As regards how to solve it, the issue is not necessarily the pension age that is the issue - it's the level of pensions and associated benefits alone being hoovered up by high ranking retired public and civil servants and even the ones at the lower level. That's a creation of FF and FG, for many years these bloated pensions were UNFUNDED. Enda Kenny has retired now and gets a pot of €2m and a and an annual pension of €126k, it would cost €5m of contributions in the private sector. For years and years and years, FF and FG were asleep at the wheel regarding this.

A huge pension deficit was created that FF and FG did not put in place contributions to fund it, it's a making entirely of their policies and complete incompetence.

How are they a side issue!? They're asking people to vote for them, so people are entitled to ask how are they going to fix the issue.

It's a side issue as FF/FG created the the crisis.

It's not your standard private sector worker who retires at 65 who has paid their taxes all their lives and will take home about 12k a year in a pension that is the issue. A person retires at 65, lives on average we'll say 17 years, that's an outlay of 200k for his pensions entitlements.

Now you look at the private sector, take a high ranking civil servant who on retirement will take a lump sump of 150k, will get an annual pension of 75k. That civil servants lives 17 years and costs the tax payer €1.45m including their lump sump. This public sector pension schemes were by and large unfunded.

A pension crisis exists because of mismanagement by FF/FG. There's also plenty of taxation avenues of large multi nationals and the banking sector that neither FF or FG want to touch.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 10:06:38 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.

You might be right that for most of the time they're not highlighting the Paul Quinn case.
But the reason they're highlighting it now is to remind the electorate of the shady dealings SF are involved in, that these people are still involved in SF today at high office and this issue occurred after the GFA, so cases like this can hardly be described as "victims of the conflict" as you put it.
Murder is still a lot more serious than vote-gate or swing-gate, and rightly so.

Except that Sinn Féin were not involved in Paul Quinn's murder. That's the sort of 'shady' obfuscation that people cynically abusing his name are trying to engage in. The issue was that Conor Murphy stated Paul was involved in criminality. Incidentally, Bertie made the exact same claim in the Dáil, saying his murder "was not paramilitary but pertained to feuds about criminality that were taking place".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:51:31 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/96c9cab286f159f811c81db47a6448da/tenor.gif?itemid=4420974)

FFS. People still listen to that tripe?

Whether it is opportunistic or not it does show how the media set the news agenda. They can dictate what and how news is reported. The Paul Quinn case has lay dormant for 13 years but has been resurrected a few days out from an election and I am sure there are others that could have been brought up. SF were always going to have to deal with the remnants of the troubles for a generation or more and will probably now suffer at the polling booths as a result which was always the intention. Paul Quinn's death has effectively been used as a political football for those who aren't really genuinely bothered about his family's plight for the rest of the time.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.

You might be right that for most of the time they're not highlighting the Paul Quinn case.
But the reason they're highlighting it now is to remind the electorate of the shady dealings SF are involved in, that these people are still involved in SF today at high office and this issue occurred after the GFA, so cases like this can hardly be described as "victims of the conflict" as you put it.
Murder is still a lot more serious than vote-gate or swing-gate, and rightly so.

Shady dealings are not unique to SF.

Maybe take a look at the decades of corruption and cosy relationships with disreputable businessmen and white collar criminals FF and FG have been involved.

Michael Martin didn't get asked about dodgy property developers to his then taoiseach and lodging money from those dodgy property developers into his bank account last night.

FF and FG don't get asked about their backroom dealings with shadowy figures like Denis O'Brien.

There's never been any justice for the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings or the victims of the Stardust fire and the government has never shown any appetite for it either, atrocities and negligent deaths committed in their own state.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dublin7 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:44 AM
I don't vote SF but there is clearly an agenda against them in the media. The Irish Independent for example uses any chance it can to have a go at the party and/or it members.

FF & FG have had their opportunities at governing the country and alot of people are looking for something different which SF are now taking advantage of. Irish politics is a murky world. FG happy to business with Michael Lowry, who frankly should be in jail for getting Denis O'Brien the mobile licence.  Haughey living a life of a king on tax payers money, Bertie getting money from "betting on the horses"

I don't remember the Irish governments doing anything when Irish catholics were being burned out of the homes in the north. If they'd stepped in when they were needed SF wouldn't exist today.

 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 05, 2020, 09:07:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: Art Mc Crory's Sofa on February 04, 2020, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You've never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children's hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.

Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Perhaps economics wasn't your strongest subject. The people in the good jobs outbid people in the less well paid jobs for the available accommodation. Employment has risen quickly in recent years and wages have risen, the amount of accommodation couldn't increase as quickly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 10:54:10 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Odious man
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cavan19 on February 05, 2020, 11:07:03 AM
QuoteGenuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Because not everyone who is homeless lives on the street.  A 30 year old living with their parents can be classed as homeless. Britney who is fond of a length and has 3 kids with 3 different men and living with mammy and daddy is classified as homeless along with her kids.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mrdeeds on February 05, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
Sinn Fein are running a candidate in Cavan Monaghan who married a Garda killer while he was in jail. To say the modern Sinn Fein are not really connected with violence would be wrong.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:14:14 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 05, 2020, 09:07:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: Art Mc Crory's Sofa on February 04, 2020, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You've never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children's hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.

Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Not enough houses are being built, specially social and affordable housing. So rents go up. This means that those with money get first dibs and everyone below them settles for a level below what they used to, meaning eventually working families pop out the bottom.

This situation suits FG as landlords make like bandits and those impacted can't vote them out as they are homeless
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:16:48 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:51:31 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/96c9cab286f159f811c81db47a6448da/tenor.gif?itemid=4420974)

FFS. People still listen to that tripe?

Whether it is opportunistic or not it does show how the media set the news agenda. They can dictate what and how news is reported. The Paul Quinn case has lay dormant for 13 years but has been resurrected a few days out from an election and I am sure there are others that could have been brought up. SF were always going to have to deal with the remnants of the troubles for a generation or more and will probably now suffer at the polling booths as a result which was always the intention. Paul Quinn's death has effectively been used as a political football for those who aren't really genuinely bothered about his family's plight for the rest of the time.
The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I'll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that's the disgusting thing about it all.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:19:23 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Perhaps economics wasn't your strongest subject. The people in the good jobs outbid people in the less well paid jobs for the available accommodation. Employment has risen quickly in recent years and wages have risen, the amount of accommodation couldn't increase as quickly.

The problem is the rental market. Private landlords are making an absolute killing out of it, young people who are working in decent jobs are paying extortionate rents and unable to get access to mortgages to afford a house of their own so they will continue to be drained by the rental market. FF/FG policy has incentivised wealthy people and vulture funds to hoard residential property as investments as they can hugely profit out of a crazy rental market.

What policy have government brought in to regulate and control this rental market? Very little and the little they have has been full of loopholes as the rental market continues to rise and landlords continue to find ways to increase the rental prices.

There is also the little commented about fact that there are over 60 sitting FF/FG TDs who are residential landlords and who stand to benefit from an out of control rental market.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:20:03 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?

I don't know.

But I think pulling up SF on it when ignoring the parties that caused it the first place is as blinkered as it gets.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:16:48 AM

The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I'll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that's the disgusting thing about it all.

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:22:24 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:20:03 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related.

The problem is that for decades the 26 had bloated public sector pension entitlements that were completely unfunded by public sector workers. That is absolute incompetence of the highest order from the two establishment parties and the reason for the current crisis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: north_antrim_hound on February 05, 2020, 11:23:09 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won't give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:25:23 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on February 05, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
Sinn Fein are running a candidate in Cavan Monaghan who married a Garda killer while he was in jail. To say the modern Sinn Fein are not really connected with violence would be wrong.

As have the Labour party in the past.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:26:14 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?

I don't know.

But I think pulling up SF on it when ignoring the parties that caused it the first place is as blinkered as it gets.

I don't think anyone is pulling SF up on the pensions issue other than saying that not increasing the pension age isn't a solution. It would seem from what you posted above that the changes made in 2013 have at least improved the situation
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:19:23 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Perhaps economics wasn't your strongest subject. The people in the good jobs outbid people in the less well paid jobs for the available accommodation. Employment has risen quickly in recent years and wages have risen, the amount of accommodation couldn't increase as quickly.

The problem is the rental market. Private landlords are making an absolute killing out of it, young people who are working in decent jobs are paying extortionate rents and unable to get access to mortgages to afford a house of their own so they will continue to be drained by the rental market. FF/FG policy has incentivised wealthy people and vulture funds to hoard residential property as investments as they can hugely profit out of a crazy rental market.

What policy have government brought in to regulate and control this rental market? Very little and the little they have has been full of loopholes as the rental market continues to rise and landlords continue to find ways to increase the rental prices.

There is also the little commented about fact that there are over 60 sitting FF/FG TDs who are residential landlords and who stand to benefit from an out of control rental market.
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?     
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:26:14 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?

I don't know.

But I think pulling up SF on it when ignoring the parties that caused it the first place is as blinkered as it gets.

I don't think anyone is pulling SF up on the pensions issue other than saying that not increasing the pension age isn't a solution. It would seem from what you posted above that the changes made in 2013 have at least improved the situation

The poster I initially pulled up on was, the crux of the matter is a badly managed, overinflated and unfunded public service pension is the cause of this issue brought to you by FF and FG. Should people who have worked hard all their lives and paid their taxes be punitively punished in order to pay for the big pensions of those who benefit from the mismanagement of FG and FF?

They haven't improved the situation, the crisis is there and it was caused by mismanagement by FF/FG.

Closing the gate after the horse has bolted comes to mind.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:16:48 AM

The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I'll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that's the disgusting thing about it all.

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That's the disgusting thing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:22:24 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:20:03 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related.

The problem is that for decades the 26 had bloated public sector pension entitlements that were completely unfunded by public sector workers. That is absolute incompetence of the highest order from the two establishment parties and the reason for the current crisis.

The government is a going concern, it doesn't make sense for them to put aside large amounts of money, which would probably have to be borrowed, to pay pensions in the future. They just put a proportion of expenditure each year towards pay and a proportion for pensions, the only issue here was that people were living longer. That said, the FF government did have a pension fund to address these issues which was then given to private sector speculators in  the crash.

QuoteThe poster I initially pulled up on was, the crux of the matter is a badly managed, overinflated and unfunded public service pension is the cause of this issue brought to you by FF and FG. Should people who have worked hard all their lives and paid their taxes be punitively punished in order to pay for the big pensions of those who benefit from the mismanagement of FG and FF?

They haven't improved the situation, the crisis is there and it was caused by mismanagement by FF/FG.

Closing the gate after the horse has bolted comes to mind.

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:33:41 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That's the disgusting thing.

In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. If Briege Quinn wants accountability now, then good luck to her if she gets it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:36:20 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:22:24 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:20:03 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related.

The problem is that for decades the 26 had bloated public sector pension entitlements that were completely unfunded by public sector workers. That is absolute incompetence of the highest order from the two establishment parties and the reason for the current crisis.

The government is a going concern, it doesn't make sense for them to put aside large amounts of money, which would probably have to be borrowed, to pay pensions in the future. They just put a proportion of expenditure each year towards pay and a proportion for pensions, the only issue here was that people were living longer. That said, the FF government did have a pension fund to address these issues which was then given to private sector speculators in  the crash.

That is absolute insanity.

When you offer overinflated pensions to public sector workers and you allow for it to be completely unfunded by then you give rise to a pension crisis. You are defending the indefensible here. The fact that FF then pissed away the rest of any pension fund bailing out gamblers tells you all need to know about the cause of the pension crisis.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:37:08 AM
Will the victims of The Stardust fire or the Dublin/Monaghan bombings ever get justice and accountability?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:37:48 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

Of course, all these measures increase rent further.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on February 05, 2020, 11:23:09 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won't give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.
Its senior hurling now
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:39:31 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
They have had 8 years. The housing market works exactly as designed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:32:40 AM

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Not mismanaged? It was overly generous to public sector workers and completely unfunded by them. How on earth can you say it was not mismanaged when there's now complete pay inequality in the public sector and the next generation are the ones who pay the price to fund these overinflated pensions?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:39:31 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
They have had 8 years. The housing market works exactly as designed.

Precisely.

60 FF/FG landlords in power, why would they have any interest in solving an out of control rental market?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 11:44:09 AM
SF should make "Angelo" their finance spokesman.
He or she is pure comedy gold.
Who do I apply to for one of the €65,000 houses?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 11:44:20 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on February 05, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
Sinn Fein are running a candidate in Cavan Monaghan who married a Garda killer while he was in jail. To say the modern Sinn Fein are not really connected with violence would be wrong.

I'm sure she has learned a lesson onr that one considering he almost killed her in a domestic violence incident. You dont have to vote for Pauline Tully but I remember her as an excellent county councilor many years ago. Judging her on who she married isnt right either.

I was wondering though, how long has this connection with violence to be dorment? At what point do we forget about FF link to the old IRA and FG link to fascists, labours link to the Official IRA? 10 years, 20 years??? Why is it ok to be critical that SF werent in government in the north or dont take their seats in London but to have a major issue with them in government in the south?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:44:36 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:32:40 AM

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Not mismanaged? It was overly generous to public sector workers and completely unfunded by them. How on earth can you say it was not mismanaged when there's now complete pay inequality in the public sector and the next generation are the ones who pay the price to fund these overinflated pensions?

Correct. It was grossly mismanaged and one of the big contributors to our public finances collapse in 2008-10.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:46:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 11:44:09 AM
SF should make "Angelo" their finance spokesman.
He or she is pure comedy gold.
Who do I apply to for one of the €65,000 houses?

Maybe FF/FG can get you to contribute more glib remarks about euthanasia and 65k houses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 11:47:10 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:33:41 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That's the disgusting thing.

In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. If Briege Quinn wants accountability now, then good luck to her if she gets it.

Conor Murphy is the current Minister for Finance in the Stormont assembly and has stood for countless elections since the Paul Quinn tragedy. Yet only now are we hearing of calls for him to resign. Why now? This isn't politicians 'striking when the iron is hot'. This is politicians using a horrible tragedy for their own political capital. The cynic in me tells me that it is a carefully orchestrated media campaign after a series of poll results showing a surge in support for SF. It is aimed at stemming the tide and might well succeed. Where have the same people calling for accountability for the Paul Quinn murder now been for the last 13 years?     
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where individual new investors are excluded and a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Evil Genius on February 05, 2020, 11:50:49 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 10:06:38 AM
Except that Sinn Féin were not involved in Paul Quinn's murder. That's the sort of 'shady' obfuscation that people cynically abusing his name are trying to engage in. The issue was that Conor Murphy stated Paul was involved in criminality.
By trying to deny the ineluctable link between SF and the IRA, it is you who is obfuscating.

All throughout the Troubles, SF was subordinate to the IRA Army Council, taking its instructions from them. And many leading figures were members of both, whether they acknowledged it or not. All that is known and undeniable.

Of course, now that the Troubles are over, it suits SF to pretend that there is no longer an IRA, even at the same time as their leader is pointing out that "they [IRA] haven't gone away, you know". This despite the clear evidence of continuing IRA activity after the ceasefire (eg Northern Bank robbery). Which in turn prompts the question, if the IRA were in charge of SF pre-ceasefire, aren't they still likely to be in charge post-ceasefire? After all, most of the most prominent members of SF were also known to be in the IRA.

Which brings us right back to Paul Quinn. He was murdered, without even a semblance of a "trial", in the most brutal and cruel way by the IRA. After the murder and the outrage it provoked, they tried to deny involvement, whilst tarnishing Quinn's name.

Which is where Conor Murphy comes in. He was a member of the IRA, having been found in possession of explosives and convicted of that and IRA membership, incidentally after a trial of the sort denied to Quinn. And he, in his capacity as a leading member of SF, was part of the campaign to blacken Quinn's name, in order to "exonerate" his old pals in the IRA.

All of which might be just about understandable, if not acceptable, if Murphy were no longer prominent in SF and/or if he had expressed any sort of regret or made any genuine attempt at reconciling his past with his present and future.

But as eg the relatively recent case of his sectarian appointment of Sean Hogan to  to be Head of Northern Ireland Water* demonstrated, by any standards such a person should never be permitted to be anywhere near any normal democratic political party, never mind be entrusted to a very senior position. And until or unless the Party clearly distances itself from that sort of representative and those sorts of practices, it must call into serious question exactly how they should be entrusted with ordinary peoples' votes.

Which, whether "opportunistic" or not, is at the very heart of the other parties' drawing attention to SF's actions in the aftermath of the murder of Paul Quinn.


* - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18526303 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18526303)
* - http://www.irishnews.com/news/employment-tribunal-criticises-ex-sinn-fein-minister-murphy-1168267 (http://www.irishnews.com/news/employment-tribunal-criticises-ex-sinn-fein-minister-murphy-1168267)
* - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20451694 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20451694)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 11:50:57 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on February 05, 2020, 11:23:09 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won't give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.
Its senior hurling now

Why would you have any respect for Miriam?

Now, last night was a set up. 1) Miriam is a FF'er, well known. 2) Leo and Michael didnt do a lot of shouting at Mary Lou because they know it looks bad men shouting down at women 3) So instead Miriam attacked her, woman on woman. That is ok you see. Notice how the other fella said damn all to Mary Lou. It is an inside job. No point moaning about it, RTE, Sindo etc are part of an establishment that are afraid of their lives of real change. Mary Lou needs to accept that and fight them all.

In addition the TV3 debate was headed by two total blueshirts, Ivan Yates (former FG TD) and Matt Cooper (Denis O Brein pet). You will find no fair play here so dont even get worried about it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:51:47 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 11:47:10 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:33:41 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That's the disgusting thing.

In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. If Briege Quinn wants accountability now, then good luck to her if she gets it.

Conor Murphy is the current Minister for Finance in the Stormont assembly and has stood for countless elections since the Paul Quinn tragedy. Yet only now are we hearing of calls for him to resign. Why now? This isn't politicians 'striking when the iron is hot'. This is politicians using a horrible tragedy for their own political capital. The cynic in me tells me that it is a carefully orchestrated media campaign after a series of poll results showing a surge in support for SF. It is aimed at stemming the tide and might well succeed. Where have the same people calling for accountability for the Paul Quinn murder now been for the last 13 years?     

You'd prefer Briege Quinn to be silenced, wouldn't you? Water under the bridge and all that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 05, 2020, 11:52:42 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:39:31 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
They have had 8 years. The housing market works exactly as designed.

8 years would never solve it given we required an 80 billion bailout to cover the costs of bad mortgages - ie Irish people who took out property loans they could not afford, and Irish developers who borrowed money up to their arse to build property that the said mortgage holders could not pay back, nor could they. On top of that, many of those in the trade headed to Australia, Canada and US, and never came back.

One also only has to look at life in some of those ghost estates like in parts of Roscommon (low income families in shitty housing) to know it's a very bad idea to lump 100,000 low income all together in public land in shitty housing. It's no way to raise a family. We need to allow x percentage of new developments be affordable so low income can have pride of home instead of sentencing them to slums. But I don't know how anyone thinks this could have been solved following the collapse of our economy over property craziness and it's amazing our economy has itself recovered so quickly. But as a country we do amnesia well, except the old joke: we never forget our grudges.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:32:40 AM

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Not mismanaged? It was overly generous to public sector workers and completely unfunded by them. How on earth can you say it was not mismanaged when there's now complete pay inequality in the public sector and the next generation are the ones who pay the price to fund these overinflated pensions?

People get half their pay as a pension, this seems a reasonable and proper thing, rather than overly generous. Other proper pensions should also provide this and many did.
The pay inequality in the public sector is not justified now that the economy has recovered. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:51:47 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 11:47:10 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:33:41 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That's the disgusting thing.

In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. If Briege Quinn wants accountability now, then good luck to her if she gets it.

Conor Murphy is the current Minister for Finance in the Stormont assembly and has stood for countless elections since the Paul Quinn tragedy. Yet only now are we hearing of calls for him to resign. Why now? This isn't politicians 'striking when the iron is hot'. This is politicians using a horrible tragedy for their own political capital. The cynic in me tells me that it is a carefully orchestrated media campaign after a series of poll results showing a surge in support for SF. It is aimed at stemming the tide and might well succeed. Where have the same people calling for accountability for the Paul Quinn murder now been for the last 13 years?     

You'd prefer Briege Quinn to be silenced, wouldn't you? Water under the bridge and all that.

Definitely not, I hope she gets justice for her sons brutal murder. She deserves as much and Conor Murphy should have apologised a long time ago. However the timing is curious as media will have deliberately resurrected the story on the cusp of an election. Unfortunately for Mary Lou she is the one left fielding the questions when it is the murky past of SF that is responsible for them. There are countless other cases that could have been brought up but if you can't see that the Quinn family are being used as a political football then I'm not going to convince you otherwise. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:05:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:32:40 AM

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Not mismanaged? It was overly generous to public sector workers and completely unfunded by them. How on earth can you say it was not mismanaged when there's now complete pay inequality in the public sector and the next generation are the ones who pay the price to fund these overinflated pensions?

People get half their pay as a pension, this seems a reasonable and proper thing, rather than overly generous. Other proper pensions should also provide this and many did.
The pay inequality in the public sector is not justified now that the economy has recovered.

People get half their pay as their pension? How does it seem reasonable when public sector workers got it based or next to no contributions (along with a 1.5 annual salary as a lumpsum) while private sector workers will now have to work extra years of their lives in order to fund it for the pre 2013 recruits with their overinflated pensions?

It's utterly scandalous mismanagement.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 05, 2020, 12:07:19 PM
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on February 05, 2020, 11:23:09 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won't give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.

Did the northern electorate vote for SF despite their Brexit stance and the damage that could and will cause socially and economically on both sides of the border?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:09:38 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 12:03:38 PM

Definitely not, I hope she gets justice for her sons brutal murder. She deserves as much and Conor Murphy should have apologised a long time ago.
Fair enough, and thank you.

Quote
However the timing is curious as media will have deliberately resurrected the story on the cusp of an election. Unfortunately for Mary Lou she is the one left fielding the questions when it is the murky past of SF that is responsible for them. There are countless other cases that could have been brought up but if you can't see that the Quinn family are being used as a political football then I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

The cusp of an election is always the time to hold politicians to account. The rest of the time, they can use spin to hide from hard questions, but thankfully that has its limits. A lot of smug FG  TD's will learn this the hard way on Sunday.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:14:58 PM
With only 42 candidates running, would SF consider it a mistake not to have run more? Or was it impossible to predict a surge like this? PP seems to expect them to get 28 - 29 seats
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

You never answer this question: Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

Please do.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand
...which is FG policy....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:28:25 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM

The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand
...which is FG policy....

And also FF policy, SF policy, Labour policy, Socialist Party policy and PB4P policy. What a mess.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 05, 2020, 12:30:19 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:16:48 AM

The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I'll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that's the disgusting thing about it all.

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That's the disgusting thing.
The dogs are cetainly in the know around the border areas, they see all, hear all and store away the memories.

But yeah, it's unite the forces, drag up dormant issues and hammer Sinn Fein time. Has Michael Martin ever condemned Bertie Aherne for his proven corrupt practices while holding office as Taoiseach?

The alternative reality presented by Fine Gael supporters is derisive and condescending, 'they have never had it so good', 'the lower incomes have an income and their netflix sub', ' if they are complaining it's because of envy not just cause'.



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:40:24 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

You never answer this question: Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

Please do.

A lot of universities already provide a lot of their own accommodation.

And I already said it should be the state who should be ramping up their social housing supply, not just for low income workers but it should be available for everyone who has a housing need and they should pay what they can afford to pay.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand

The reason its out of control is that wealthy individuals and vulture funds are the only ones with the capital to buy properties.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:40:24 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

You never answer this question: Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

Please do.

A lot of universities already provide a lot of their own accommodation.

And I already said it should be the state who should be ramping up their social housing supply, not just for low income workers but it should be available for everyone who has a housing need and they should pay what they can afford to pay.

State-supplied social housing for junior doctors and barristers, paid for at €250,000 per unit by bus drivers and binmen.  ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:40:24 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

You never answer this question: Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

Please do.

A lot of universities already provide a lot of their own accommodation.

And I already said it should be the state who should be ramping up their social housing supply, not just for low income workers but it should be available for everyone who has a housing need and they should pay what they can afford to pay.

State-supplied social housing for junior doctors and barristers, paid for at €250,000 per unit by bus drivers and binmen.  ::)

State supplied social housing provided for everyone with fair rental based on what you can afford.

Social housing is also a revenue stream once capital investment has been completed.

Or the state putting €400m into the pockets of private landlords annually?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 05, 2020, 12:53:35 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:19:42 PM
You never answer this question: Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

I've answered the young people one for you before - but you've conveniently "forgot" it.

If the rental cost is greater than the mortgage cost - then the rationale thing for anyone to do is buy the house.

Of course, that requires a deposit. No chance of a early 20s man or woman having any kind of deposit put together when they are getting absolutely hammered on rental prices.


Students is a different ball game. They are obviously transient and won't want to buy.   It wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to have different rental regulations and laws if the renters in a house are enrolled in a nearby university for a full-time course over that year.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand

The reason its out of control is that wealthy individuals and vulture funds are the only ones with the capital to buy properties.

But who owns the property has no impact on the market rent for that property. When demand outstrips supply, rents rise
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:15:33 PM
Just to repeat this:

Bertie Ahern stood up in the Dáil and said that Paul Quinn's murder "was not paramilitary but pertained to feuds about criminality that were taking place".

He later doubled down on this claim by stating "Anything that I said - and I didn't say too much - was based on our security intelligence. So up until the last time I checked, the security intelligence hasn't changed, but I have no wish to make life harder for the Quinn family and I certainly don't want to do that. But I haven't had any change in the intelligence reports. So any comments I made were just made on what the intelligence I was given".

Things of interest:
1. That was the exact same claim as was made by Conor Murphy, for which he is now being asked to resign and publicly apologise for.
2. Bertie later publically retracted his claim but did not actually make an apology, nor was there a demand for one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 05, 2020, 12:53:35 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 12:19:42 PM
You never answer this question: Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

I've answered the young people one for you before - but you've conveniently "forgot" it.

If the rental cost is greater than the mortgage cost - then the rationale thing for anyone to do is buy the house.

Of course, that requires a deposit. No chance of a early 20s man or woman having any kind of deposit put together when they are getting absolutely hammered on rental prices.


Students is a different ball game. They are obviously transient and won't want to buy.   It wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to have different rental regulations and laws if the renters in a house are enrolled in a nearby university for a full-time course over that year.

You answered me alright but your answers made no sense. They still make no sense.

There's no chance of a early 20s man or woman having any kind of deposit put together - even if they're not paying rent.

There are far more transient dwellers out there than students.

If you have different rental regulations and laws for student tenancies, then landlords will let to students rather than working couples or families.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:18:09 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:15:33 PM
Just to repeat this:

Bertie Ahern stood up in the Dáil and said that Paul Quinn's murder "was not paramilitary but pertained to feuds about criminality that were taking place".
...
Things of interest:
1. That was the exact same claim as was made by Conor Murphy, for which he is now being asked to resign and publicly apologise for.
2. Bertie later publically retracted his claim but did not actually make an apology, nor was there a demand for one.


1. Ahern was an IRA apologist.
2. He's not standing for election.
3. He's not fit to stand for election.
4. If he did stand, he'd be laughed out of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.

Who would own the rental properties then? For students and young people to live in?

The problem is simply lack of supply

The problem is an out of control rental market that is pricing people out of a decent standard of life, people cannot afford to buy with the rental market prohibiting them from saving up a deposit.

The state should be investing more heavily in state owned houses.

FF decimated the state's housing supply when they were in power.

The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand

The reason its out of control is that wealthy individuals and vulture funds are the only ones with the capital to buy properties.

But who owns the property has no impact on the market rent for that property. When demand outstrips supply, rents rise

It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

What do you propose, confiscations?

What do you think that would do for supply? Remember the State can't afford to spend €250,000 a unit building new units. It can't even afford to maintain its own dilapidated units
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:30:53 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:18:09 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:15:33 PM
Just to repeat this:

Bertie Ahern stood up in the Dáil and said that Paul Quinn's murder "was not paramilitary but pertained to feuds about criminality that were taking place".
...
Things of interest:
1. That was the exact same claim as was made by Conor Murphy, for which he is now being asked to resign and publicly apologise for.
2. Bertie later publically retracted his claim but did not actually make an apology, nor was there a demand for one.


1. Ahern was an IRA apologist.
2. He's not standing for election.
3. He's not fit to stand for election.
4. If he did stand, he'd be laughed out of it.

1. He made these remarks as Taoiseach.
2. If Paul Quinn's death isn't being cynically used for election purposes, you'll of course accept that whether or not Bertie was standing for an election is totally irrelevant to the question of whether he owed a public apology to the Quinns in the way Conor Muprhy is being asked to?
3. Bertie was an IRA apologist?? I've heard it all now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM


The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand

The reason its out of control is that wealthy individuals and vulture funds are the only ones with the capital to buy properties.

But who owns the property has no impact on the market rent for that property. When demand outstrips supply, rents rise

It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

The ownership of a property doesn't impact the rent that can be charged for it, it's a relatively simple supply/demand relationship.

The bit in bold has always been the case in this country but we've only had a rental crisis in the last 5-6 years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:35:25 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:30:53 PM
1. He made these remarks as Taoiseach.
And? His reputation as Taoiseach lies in ruins.

Quote
2. If Paul Quinn's death isn't being cynically used for election purposes, you'll of course accept that whether or not Bertie was standing for an election is totally irrelevant to the question of whether he owed a public apology to the Quinns in the way Conor Muprhy is being asked to?
Bertie also owes the Quinns an apology. But because he's discredited and not running for office, nobody really cares about that, which is a pity. I'd love to see him squirm again.
Quote
3. Bertie was an IRA apologist?? I've heard it all now.
He was. His "peacemaker" patter depended on it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 05, 2020, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

What do you propose, confiscations?

What do you think that would do for supply? Remember the State can't afford to spend €250,000 a unit building new units. It can't even afford to maintain its own dilapidated units

Higher interest rates destroy all asset bubbles
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:39:10 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM


The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand

The reason its out of control is that wealthy individuals and vulture funds are the only ones with the capital to buy properties.

But who owns the property has no impact on the market rent for that property. When demand outstrips supply, rents rise

It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

The ownership of a property doesn't impact the rent that can be charged for it, it's a relatively simple supply/demand relationship.

The bit in bold has always been the case in this country but we've only had a rental crisis in the last 5-6 years.

Of course it impacts it.

We're in a rental crisis and the private landlords are hiking up rental prices and forcing people onto the breadline, because they can. There needs to be legislation prohibiting people from owning multiple properties and at the very least rigidly capping what can be charged?

What are the landlords going to do otherwise, let it sit there and gather dust? The ownership of property needs to be focused away from private investors.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2020, 01:38:01 PM
Higher interest rates destroy all asset bubbles

We haven't controlled our own interest rates for 20 years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

What do you propose, confiscations?

What do you think that would do for supply? Remember the State can't afford to spend €250,000 a unit building new units. It can't even afford to maintain its own dilapidated units

CPOs, penalties and high taxes on landlords who own more than one residential property.

The state can afford to put €400m in the pockets of private landlords a year. Whatever the state put in social housing is capital investment into assets that generate a future revenue stream, whatever they put into the pockets of private landlords is lost to the state.

€400m a year builds a lot of social houses alone.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:45:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

What do you propose, confiscations?

What do you think that would do for supply? Remember the State can't afford to spend €250,000 a unit building new units. It can't even afford to maintain its own dilapidated units

CPOs, penalties and high taxes on landlords who own more than one residential property.

The state can afford to put €400m in the pockets of private landlords a year. Whatever the state put in social housing is capital investment into assets that generate a future revenue stream, whatever they put into the pockets of private landlords is lost to the state.

€400m a year builds a lot of social houses alone.

€400m a year would build 1,600 social houses each year. We need 25 times that number.

And the net return on capital investment in social housing approximates to zero.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 05, 2020, 01:46:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM

It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

Think you are conflating two separate issues here. Yes, we can complain that NAMA were naive in letting REITs get these properties for a song and not getting the appropriate return on investment for the taxpayer... although the original sin was Irish banks and Irish property developers who are the actual guilty parties in contributing to the bailout debt, and then NAMA for not recouping as much as possible. Investment companies always swoop in to buy low, turn a profit, whether that is a company in distress or a property. That happens the world over. But it doesn't really matter who owns them. Landlords are not in the business of charity and will charge the highest rent they can get. The problem is we don't have enough rental units for Dublin where most of the job opportunities are... and as I've said, that will only be solved by allowing high rises, and allocating a certain percentage for lower means tested lower income. And to get more development, we need to become real estate developer friendly. These are the creators, not the politicians, or the pundits, or those students complaining about the evils of landlords. There are some great developers. None better than my fellow county man, Sean Mulryan, who not only builds great developments all around the globe, but gives back to the local community.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 05, 2020, 01:51:15 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2020, 01:38:01 PM
Higher interest rates destroy all asset bubbles

We haven't controlled our own interest rates for 20 years.
They will go up after the next mega crash . It's mechanical in the eurozone.
Houses are overvalued again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:53:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2020, 01:51:15 PM

They will go up after the next mega crash . It's mechanical in the eurozone.
Houses are overvalued again.

You are correct. But say we shouldn't be in the eurozone and all hell breaks loose.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:35:25 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:30:53 PM
1. He made these remarks as Taoiseach.
And? His reputation as Taoiseach lies in ruins.

Quote
2. If Paul Quinn's death isn't being cynically used for election purposes, you'll of course accept that whether or not Bertie was standing for an election is totally irrelevant to the question of whether he owed a public apology to the Quinns in the way Conor Muprhy is being asked to?
Bertie also owes the Quinns an apology. But because he's discredited and not running for office, nobody really cares about that, which is a pity. I'd love to see him squirm again.
Quote
3. Bertie was an IRA apologist?? I've heard it all now.
He was. His "peacemaker" patter depended on it.

My point exactly. Nobody doing all the shouting in the past week really gives a toss about the Quinns. Or about whether or not they get an apology. They just see the fact that Conor Murphy has not apologised as a golden opportunity to score some cheap political points. If that wasn't the case, surely the Taoiseach - the most senior politician in Ireland - calling Paul Quinn a criminal would have caused twice the uproar in the media as was caused by Conor Murphy saying the same thing.

P.s. Yeah nothing says IRA apologist like repeatedly calling them criminals and terrorists  ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
My point exactly. Nobody doing all the shouting in the past week really gives a toss about the Quinns. Or about whether or not they get an apology. They just see the fact that Conor Murphy has not apologised as a golden opportunity to score some cheap political points. If that wasn't the case, surely the Taoiseach - the most senior politician in Ireland - calling Paul Quinn a criminal would have caused twice the uproar in the media as was caused by Conor Murphy saying the same thing.

P.s. Yeah nothing says IRA apologist like repeatedly calling them criminals and terrorists  ::)

Bertie getting an undeserved free pass doesn't mean that Conor Murphy deserves one.

Bertie's talk was always cheap.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 02:03:26 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
My point exactly. Nobody doing all the shouting in the past week really gives a toss about the Quinns. Or about whether or not they get an apology. They just see the fact that Conor Murphy has not apologised as a golden opportunity to score some cheap political points. If that wasn't the case, surely the Taoiseach - the most senior politician in Ireland - calling Paul Quinn a criminal would have caused twice the uproar in the media as was caused by Conor Murphy saying the same thing.

P.s. Yeah nothing says IRA apologist like repeatedly calling them criminals and terrorists  ::)

Bertie getting an undeserved free pass doesn't mean that Conor Murphy deserves one.

Bertie's talk was always cheap.

And as you have already conceded earlier, the only reason Conor Murphy isn't getting a free pass is because people are using & abusing Paul Quinn's name to attack SF. Their concern is not for the Quinns. By Sunday, they'll be immediately forgotten and discarded by Micheal Martin/Miriam O'Callaghan and their ilk when they have outlived their usefulness. It's disgusting.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 02:09:36 PM
Colum Eastwood has now raised the Quinn case in the House of Commons and got some muddled reply from Boris Johnson about justice for veterans. I don't think the DUP have commented yet but if they also call on Conor Murphy to resign it could well put the Stormont institutions back under threat again.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:45:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

What do you propose, confiscations?

What do you think that would do for supply? Remember the State can't afford to spend €250,000 a unit building new units. It can't even afford to maintain its own dilapidated units

CPOs, penalties and high taxes on landlords who own more than one residential property.

The state can afford to put €400m in the pockets of private landlords a year. Whatever the state put in social housing is capital investment into assets that generate a future revenue stream, whatever they put into the pockets of private landlords is lost to the state.

€400m a year builds a lot of social houses alone.

€400m a year would build 1,600 social houses each year. We need 25 times that number.

And the net return on capital investment in social housing approximates to zero.

1,600 more social houses than we have now and over the past 4 years that is 6,400 houses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
1,600 more social houses than we have now and over the past 4 years that is 6,400 houses.
But we've already a backlog of possibly 100,000 units and we need at least another 30,000 a year. Your 1,600 per annum is a drop in the ocean.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
1,600 more social houses than we have now and over the past 4 years that is 6,400 houses.
But we've already a backlog of possibly 100,000 units and we need at least another 30,000 a year. Your 6,400 per annum is a drop in the ocean.

It's an example of one avenue, that one avenue alone accounts for 6% of the current housing units needed. It's a prime example of how the current government have failed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
1,600 more social houses than we have now and over the past 4 years that is 6,400 houses.
But we've already a backlog of possibly 100,000 units and we need at least another 30,000 a year. Your 6,400 per annum is a drop in the ocean.

It's an example of one avenue, that one avenue alone accounts for 6% of the current housing units needed. It's a prime example of how the current government have failed.
Congrats you've just solved a whole 6% of the problem.  ::)

Meanwhile you've kicked every private sector tenant onto the streets.  :o
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:31:37 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
1,600 more social houses than we have now and over the past 4 years that is 6,400 houses.
But we've already a backlog of possibly 100,000 units and we need at least another 30,000 a year. Your 6,400 per annum is a drop in the ocean.

It's an example of one avenue, that one avenue alone accounts for 6% of the current housing units needed. It's a prime example of how the current government have failed.
Congrats you've just solved a whole 6% of the problem.  ::)

I haven't solved it. I just pointed out how the government has squandered €400m a year into private landlords and exacerbated the housing crisis. That doesn't seem to sit well with you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
1,600 more social houses than we have now and over the past 4 years that is 6,400 houses.
But we've already a backlog of possibly 100,000 units and we need at least another 30,000 a year. Your 6,400 per annum is a drop in the ocean.

It's an example of one avenue, that one avenue alone accounts for 6% of the current housing units needed. It's a prime example of how the current government have failed.
Congrats you've just solved a whole 6% of the problem.  ::)

Meanwhile you've kicked every private sector tenant onto the streets.  :o

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 02:43:47 PM
Is there another opinion poll due before Saturday?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on February 05, 2020, 02:54:48 PM
All out media assault on SF today. Times, Maria Cahill in the Indo, Sean O'Rourke on RTE radio had almost his show devoted to them today.

Not a SF voter but it's quite something to see the establishment go after them this week.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GJL on February 05, 2020, 02:57:27 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
1,600 more social houses than we have now and over the past 4 years that is 6,400 houses.
But we've already a backlog of possibly 100,000 units and we need at least another 30,000 a year. Your 6,400 per annum is a drop in the ocean.

It's an example of one avenue, that one avenue alone accounts for 6% of the current housing units needed. It's a prime example of how the current government have failed.
Congrats you've just solved a whole 6% of the problem.  ::)

Meanwhile you've kicked every private sector tenant onto the streets.  :o

A bit off topic but where did the figure of €250000 per house come from? I'd of thought with government backing houses should be done for ~ half that amount? No?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:08:00 PM
Official State figures, which should be easy to check on Google. You'll build nothing compliant with  current building regulations for much less and given the state's poor record  on project cost management, the actual cost per unit is likely to be higher.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM
]

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?

Where will they go if the rent isn't paid?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on February 05, 2020, 03:12:14 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:16:48 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:51:31 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/96c9cab286f159f811c81db47a6448da/tenor.gif?itemid=4420974)

FFS. People still listen to that tripe?

Whether it is opportunistic or not it does show how the media set the news agenda. They can dictate what and how news is reported. The Paul Quinn case has lay dormant for 13 years but has been resurrected a few days out from an election and I am sure there are others that could have been brought up. SF were always going to have to deal with the remnants of the troubles for a generation or more and will probably now suffer at the polling booths as a result which was always the intention. Paul Quinn's death has effectively been used as a political football for those who aren't really genuinely bothered about his family's plight for the rest of the time.
The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I'll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that's the disgusting thing about it all.
Bertie in 2007 is on record quoting intelligence an d saying something along the lines of Conor Murphy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 03:29:05 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 05, 2020, 03:12:14 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:16:48 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:51:31 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/96c9cab286f159f811c81db47a6448da/tenor.gif?itemid=4420974)

FFS. People still listen to that tripe?

Whether it is opportunistic or not it does show how the media set the news agenda. They can dictate what and how news is reported. The Paul Quinn case has lay dormant for 13 years but has been resurrected a few days out from an election and I am sure there are others that could have been brought up. SF were always going to have to deal with the remnants of the troubles for a generation or more and will probably now suffer at the polling booths as a result which was always the intention. Paul Quinn's death has effectively been used as a political football for those who aren't really genuinely bothered about his family's plight for the rest of the time.
The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I'll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that's the disgusting thing about it all.
Bertie in 2007 is on record quoting intelligence an d saying something along the lines of Conor Murphy.

I quoted his statement a few pages back.

Also, the British Government's own Independent Monitoring Commission, looking at the case, said the following:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQBPZrVWkAAPklQ?format=jpg&name=small)

So we have Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach, the British Government's Monitoring Commission and Conor Murphy all having said his murder was linked to criminality, but only one of those three people/bodies are being asked for a public apology for the stating the claim. And this week, of all weeks, weirdly.

The cynical use of victims by gombeen political and media figures in the south is utterly disgusting. Though I do see Colum Eastwood has mysteriously chosen this week to raise the subject in Westminster. How odd that the leader of FF's sister party is only taking an interest this week eh?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: JohnDenver on February 05, 2020, 03:42:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 03:29:05 PM
So we have Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach, the British Government's Monitoring Commission and Conor Murphy all having said his murder was linked to criminality, but only one of those three people/bodies are being asked for a public apology for the stating the claim. And this week, of all weeks, weirdly.

The cynical use of victims by gombeen political and media figures in the south is utterly disgusting. Though I do see Colum Eastwood has mysteriously chosen this week to raise the subject in Westminster. How odd that the leader of FF's sister party is only taking an interest this week eh?

he's been very quiet with regards to Claire Hanna's canvassing for both Labour and Fine Gael in the south.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 03:42:32 PM
I don't see any SF supporters here condemning the awful savage murder of young Quinn by a gang of (allegedly Provo) thugs.
Meanwhile
https://www.shannonside.ie/news/local/roscommon/sister-roscommon-garda-killed-ira-robbery-calls-sensitivity-sinn-fein-leader/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 03:47:43 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on February 05, 2020, 02:54:48 PM
All out media assault on SF today. Times, Maria Cahill in the Indo, Sean O'Rourke on RTE radio had almost his show devoted to them today.

Not a SF voter but it's quite something to see the establishment go after them this week.

For me it's interesting to observe just how a media establishment can use print and news to influence public thinking. Billionaire media moguls in the UK such as Rupert Murdoch and Viscount Rothermere have used this influence to promote Brexit and countless UK elections on behalf of the Tory party and there exists a similar establishment cabal in Irish media only on a smaller scale. Once their interests come under threat they batten down the hatches and it's full scale attack. The same thing happened Corbyn in consecutive elections in the UK when publications such as the Daily Mail, The Sun and The Telegraph continually attacked him on a daily basis. It's all aimed at protecting big business financial interests. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 03:42:32 PM
I don't see any SF supporters here condemning the awful savage murder of young Quinn by a gang of (allegedly Provo) thugs.
Meanwhile
https://www.shannonside.ie/news/local/roscommon/sister-roscommon-garda-killed-ira-robbery-calls-sensitivity-sinn-fein-leader/

I don't hear any FF supporters coming out and condemning the savage murder of 6 year old Mary Boyle by a (alleged FF close ally) paedophile.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 04:00:22 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 03:42:32 PM
I don't see any SF supporters here condemning the awful savage murder of young Quinn by a gang of (allegedly Provo) thugs.
Meanwhile
https://www.shannonside.ie/news/local/roscommon/sister-roscommon-garda-killed-ira-robbery-calls-sensitivity-sinn-fein-leader/

Have you seen any condone it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 04:05:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 03:42:32 PM
I don't see any SF supporters here condemning the awful savage murder of young Quinn by a gang of (allegedly Provo) thugs.
Meanwhile
https://www.shannonside.ie/news/local/roscommon/sister-roscommon-garda-killed-ira-robbery-calls-sensitivity-sinn-fein-leader/

FFS  ::) So now anonymous online discussion board contributors have to condemn murder to appease those who are busily pretending to care about it? Away and cop yourself on.

If it keeps you happy though, Snapchap condemns this brutal murder unreservedly. I trust this is of comfort to you, given your obvious and long standing (almost a week believe it or not) concern for the Quinns? Snapchap also condemns those cynically pretending to care about the murder this week. These people will be easily identified by their sudden disinterest in the case come Sunday morning.

In other news, I see Conor Murphy has now apologised for having stated the same thing the British Government's IMF report said about the murder. I await the clamour for an apology from the British Government to be demanded by Micheal Martin, Ivan Yates, Sean O'Rourke, Miriam O'Callaghan and, crucially, from the world of anonymous internet discussion forum contributors like 'Rossfan' who have been deeply concerned about the Quinn family campaign for absolutely hours now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 04:08:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 03:42:32 PM
I don't see any SF supporters here condemning the awful savage murder of young Quinn by a gang of (allegedly Provo) thugs.
Meanwhile
https://www.shannonside.ie/news/local/roscommon/sister-roscommon-garda-killed-ira-robbery-calls-sensitivity-sinn-fein-leader/

I don't hear any FF supporters coming out and condemning the savage murder of 6 year old Mary Boyle by a (alleged FF close ally) paedophile.

The bread and butter issues of health, homelessness and crime have now been hijacked by mud slinging back and forward over incidents that happened years ago. I don't see how any of this is particularly relevant to the real issues that matter in this election.

Now we have Stephen Nolan getting a TV show on the Paul Quinn issue again tonight. He has latched onto the story and is using it to sensationalise the issue for TV ratings and will no doubt wheel out some Unionist politicians looking for Murphy's head on a plate.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:11:19 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 04:08:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 03:42:32 PM
I don't see any SF supporters here condemning the awful savage murder of young Quinn by a gang of (allegedly Provo) thugs.
Meanwhile
https://www.shannonside.ie/news/local/roscommon/sister-roscommon-garda-killed-ira-robbery-calls-sensitivity-sinn-fein-leader/

I don't hear any FF supporters coming out and condemning the savage murder of 6 year old Mary Boyle by a (alleged FF close ally) paedophile.

The bread and butter issues of health, homelessness and crime have now been hijacked by mud slinging back and forward over incidents that happened years ago. I don't see how any of this is particularly relevant to the real issues that matter in this election.

Now we have Stephen Nolan getting a TV show on the Paul Quinn issue again tonight. He has latched onto the story and is using it to sensationalise the issue for TV ratings and will no doubt wheel out some Unionist politicians looking for Murphy's head on a plate.   

The skeletons of the establishment parties down south are not be poked at, no matter how murky and truly disgusting they are.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Evil Genius on February 05, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on February 05, 2020, 02:54:48 PM
All out media assault on SF today. Times, Maria Cahill in the Indo, Sean O'Rourke on RTE radio had almost his show devoted to them today.

Not a SF voter but it's quite something to see the establishment go after them this week.
Oh for the days when if someone had a go at you, you could just send the boys round and relieve them of their kneecaps. Or (pace Ms Cahill) raped them in a safe house. That usually solved it

And it's so very tiresome to actually have to answer for all the things you do and say, particularly at election time, when there's personation and all sorts to be getting on with.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:44:35 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 05, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on February 05, 2020, 02:54:48 PM
All out media assault on SF today. Times, Maria Cahill in the Indo, Sean O'Rourke on RTE radio had almost his show devoted to them today.

Not a SF voter but it's quite something to see the establishment go after them this week.
Oh for the days when if someone had a go at you, you could just send the boys round and relieve them of their kneecaps. Or (pace Ms Cahill) raped them in a safe house. That usually solved it

And it's so very tiresome to actually have to answer for all the things you do and say, particularly at election time, when there's personation and all sorts to be getting on with.

If mudslinging and accountability is the order of the day it should not be limited to SF.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. How are the Dublin/Monaghan bombing victims and the victims of the Stardust fire getting on in their bid for justice?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 04:46:16 PM
As the cliche goes "they're playin senior hurling now" and its Championship not League so it's tough and intense.
Anyway when the dust has settled what's the likely outcome in seats?
I'll guess at
FF 50
SF 28
FG 27
Greens10
Labour 8
SDP 3
Loony  left 4
The rest 30
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM
]

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?

Where will they go if the rent isn't paid?

Do you generally answer questions with other questions?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 04:59:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?

Where will they go if the rent isn't paid?

Do you generally answer questions with other questions?

OK. I can easily rephrase it into a statement.

You're assuming that landlords would keep tenants in situ even if the State stops paying or financing the rent. 

Bear in mind that a good portion of the landlords will have mortgage repayments to meet, and may not be in a position to afford to be so generous, even if they would like to.

I would expect this to end in a large volume of evictions. I can only assume that you do too. If you see another happier outcome, do let us know.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 05:05:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 04:46:16 PM
As the cliche goes "they're playin senior hurling now" and its Championship not League so it's tough and intense.
Anyway when the dust has settled what's the likely outcome in seats?
I'll guess at
FF 50
SF 28
FG 27
Greens10
Labour 8
SDP 3
Loony  left 4
The rest 30

That senior hurling analogy is a load of bollox. If you think throwing shite at people from the agencies of the state and supposedly impartial media is acceptable then you will get the muppets you deserve as TDs in Roscommon and as far as I can see you have got exactly that in the past.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 05:05:39 PM
That senior hurling analogy is a load of bollox. If you think throwing shite at people from the agencies of the state and supposedly impartial media is acceptable then you will get the muppets you deserve as TDs in Roscommon and as far as I can see you have got exactly that in the past.

Irish media has never, ever been impartial. I presume your reference to "agencies of the state" is to RTE. They have never been impartial either and this is why there should be no compulsory TV licence.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 05:33:26 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 05:05:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 04:46:16 PM
As the cliche goes "they're playin senior hurling now" and its Championship not League so it's tough and intense.
Anyway when the dust has settled what's the likely outcome in seats?
I'll guess at
FF 50
SF 28
FG 27
Greens10
Labour 8
SDP 3
Loony  left 4
The rest 30

That senior hurling analogy is a load of bollox. If you think throwing shite at people from the agencies of the state and supposedly impartial media is acceptable then you will get the muppets you deserve as TDs in Roscommon and as far as I can see you have got exactly that in the past.
Dry up yer tears buckeen.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 05:39:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:39:10 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 12:20:12 PM


The reason it's out of control is because supply is way below demand

The reason its out of control is that wealthy individuals and vulture funds are the only ones with the capital to buy properties.

But who owns the property has no impact on the market rent for that property. When demand outstrips supply, rents rise

It impacts rents when there are no controls and regulation on it. When residential properties are in the hands of private investors then that is when the rental market can fly out of control as it has done.

The ownership of a property doesn't impact the rent that can be charged for it, it's a relatively simple supply/demand relationship.

The bit in bold has always been the case in this country but we've only had a rental crisis in the last 5-6 years.

Of course it impacts it.

We're in a rental crisis and the private landlords are hiking up rental prices and forcing people onto the breadline, because they can. There needs to be legislation prohibiting people from owning multiple properties and at the very least rigidly capping what can be charged?

What are the landlords going to do otherwise, let it sit there and gather dust? The ownership of property needs to be focused away from private investors.

They're hiking it up because they can, because demand exceeds supply (as someone mentioned, higher density is one option to improve supply)

Your suggestion that most private rented accommodation be taken into public ownership is ludicrous, what would that even cost just to CPO those properties? And it wouldn't deliver a single additional unit
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 05:39:55 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 04:59:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?

Where will they go if the rent isn't paid?

Do you generally answer questions with other questions?

OK. I can easily rephrase it into a statement.

You're assuming that landlords would keep tenants in situ even if the State stops paying or financing the rent. 

Bear in mind that a good portion of the landlords will have mortgage repayments to meet, and may not be in a position to afford to be so generous, even if they would like to.

I would expect this to end in a large volume of evictions. I can only assume that you do too. If you see another happier outcome, do let us know.
€400m would build 1600 social houses.
I read somewhere there are 18,000 tenants in receipt of HAP.
16,400 renaining wouldn't be able to pay the current private rentals and would be turfed out.
Then they go to their local Council who will have to find them emergency accommodation.....
Sone hope of that with 10,000 or so already in the emergency accommodation.
And if they somehow did find some how much would that cost in a year?
I'd say more than €400m.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 05:50:16 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 04:59:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?

Where will they go if the rent isn't paid?

Do you generally answer questions with other questions?

OK. I can easily rephrase it into a statement.

You're assuming that landlords would keep tenants in situ even if the State stops paying or financing the rent. 

Bear in mind that a good portion of the landlords will have mortgage repayments to meet, and may not be in a position to afford to be so generous, even if they would like to.

I would expect this to end in a large volume of evictions. I can only assume that you do too. If you see another happier outcome, do let us know.

What would the landlords do with their houses? Let them sit there and gather dust? If landlords have repayments to meet the maybe they should sell off their second homes?

I think putting 400m a year into the pockets of private landlords and allowing a rental market to spiral out of control has been a scandalous policy decision from Fine Gael. This benefits landlords which is fine by FF FG as a housing crisis and an out of control rental market is of great economic benefit to private landlords. The state has facilitated the rental market getting out of control.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 05:50:16 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 04:59:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?

Where will they go if the rent isn't paid?

Do you generally answer questions with other questions?

OK. I can easily rephrase it into a statement.

You're assuming that landlords would keep tenants in situ even if the State stops paying or financing the rent. 

Bear in mind that a good portion of the landlords will have mortgage repayments to meet, and may not be in a position to afford to be so generous, even if they would like to.

I would expect this to end in a large volume of evictions. I can only assume that you do too. If you see another happier outcome, do let us know.

What would the landlords do with their houses?

Evict the non-paying tenants and re-let to paying tenants.  End of story.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 05:50:16 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 04:59:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 02:36:01 PM

How do you fathom out every private sector tenant is kicked onto the street?

Where will they go if the rent isn't paid?

Do you generally answer questions with other questions?

OK. I can easily rephrase it into a statement.

You're assuming that landlords would keep tenants in situ even if the State stops paying or financing the rent. 

Bear in mind that a good portion of the landlords will have mortgage repayments to meet, and may not be in a position to afford to be so generous, even if they would like to.

I would expect this to end in a large volume of evictions. I can only assume that you do too. If you see another happier outcome, do let us know.

What would the landlords do with their houses?

Evict the non-paying tenants and re-let to paying tenants.  End of story.

So what difference does that make? Tenants out, tenants in
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 06:21:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: five points on February 05, 2020, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 05:50:16 PM

What would the landlords do with their houses?

Evict the non-paying tenants and re-let to paying tenants.  End of story.

So what difference does that make? Tenants out, tenants in

The current occupiers of private social housing would have nowhere to go.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on February 05, 2020, 06:25:55 PM
Discussion about how to prepare for a new Ireland very much absent in the RTE debate.  Not even SF could weave it in.  The only mentions of the North were about the dirty war and high levels of homelessness.  Being included didn't give SF any further bounce in my opinion. Might actually hurt them as the old doubts won't go away.  And they hadn't costed one of their manifesto commitments, think it was in electric car infrastructure, never a good look.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 06:39:50 PM
Conor Murphy has apologised to the Quinn family.
Tipp election may be going ahead Saturday after all as AG about to report  to Government that it can legally proceed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 06:55:48 PM
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on February 05, 2020, 11:23:09 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won't give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.

Is her brother not a FF candidate in this election?

It wouldn't happen in any other country.  Imagine that happening anywhere else a few days out from an election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 06:58:32 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on February 05, 2020, 06:25:55 PM
Discussion about how to prepare for a new Ireland very much absent in the RTE debate.  Not even SF could weave it in.  The only mentions of the North were about the dirty war and high levels of homelessness.  Being included didn't give SF any further bounce in my opinion. Might actually hurt them as the old doubts won't go away.  And they hadn't costed one of their manifesto commitments, think it was in electric car infrastructure, never a good look.

Mary-Lou hadn't a clue about the electric car costing, but finding would be "massive". More seriously perhaps, Martin asked where the €400m was to come for local government given that the Shinners wanted to abolish the property tax, no answer was provided.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:12:11 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 02:09:36 PM
Colum Eastwood has now raised the Quinn case in the House of Commons and got some muddled reply from Boris Johnson about justice for veterans. I don't think the DUP have commented yet but if they also call on Conor Murphy to resign it could well put the Stormont institutions back under threat again.

Is this the Colum 'I'll stop Brexit, if elected' Eastwood????

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: JohnDenver on February 05, 2020, 03:42:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 03:29:05 PM
So we have Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach, the British Government's Monitoring Commission and Conor Murphy all having said his murder was linked to criminality, but only one of those three people/bodies are being asked for a public apology for the stating the claim. And this week, of all weeks, weirdly.

The cynical use of victims by gombeen political and media figures in the south is utterly disgusting. Though I do see Colum Eastwood has mysteriously chosen this week to raise the subject in Westminster. How odd that the leader of FF's sister party is only taking an interest this week eh?

he's been very quiet with regards to Claire Hanna's canvassing for both Labour and Fine Gael in the south.

Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 07:50:03 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Except that after resigning the whip,she appeared at the Labour Ard Fheis, and had been vocal of her support for Labour in the south, and had cancassed for them. Which makes her sudden efforts of behalf of FG all the more laughable. It just shows that Lab and FG are of the same ilk when you scratch the surface.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 05, 2020, 07:51:34 PM
SF - they promise spending like they never have to carry it through. I kind of want to see them have their bluff called but it would set back the ROI 50+ years if they were ever elected. Be careful what ye wish/vote for
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Saffrongael on February 05, 2020, 08:05:44 PM
It's called politics lad, it's a dirty game. Murphy has had more than enough time to apologise and has down so when his feet were put to the fire and with an election looming. Why do people think SF unexpectedly turned up at the launch of the new PSNI recruitment campaign, a week before an election ??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rois on February 05, 2020, 08:09:12 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 07:50:03 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Except that after resigning the whip,she appeared at the Labour Ard Fheis, and had been vocal of her support for Labour in the south, and had cancassed for them. Which makes her sudden efforts of behalf of FG all the more laughable. It just shows that Lab and FG are of the same ilk when you scratch the surface.

Labour and Fine Gael are of the same ilk? Aye.  ::)

AFAIK Ms. Hanna isn't a member of Fine Gael or the Irish Labour party and is otherwise free as an Irish citizen to canvas whomever she wants to. If there is a possible conflict of interest it's up to her to explain it. Without knowing which FG candidate she's supporting, it's possible it's in a seat where no Labour party candidate is standing. Citations are needed.
She was canvassing for Emer Currie, daughter of civil rights campaigner and one of the original SDLP founders, Austin Currie, himself representing FG for a number of years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 05, 2020, 07:51:34 PM
SF - they promise spending like they never have to carry it through. I kind of want to see them have their bluff called but it would set back the ROI 50+ years if they were ever elected. Be careful what ye wish/vote for

I'd say Mary-Lou would be like Boris after the Brexit referendum if she ended up as the biggest party and the others just said, you come up with a plan.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Has she not canvassed for Labour too in the 26 counties?
How can you go from SDLP/Labour to FG?

Nasty work.  What do the people of sth. Belfast think of this?

SDLP don't know where to go in the south - Durkan was standing as a FG lad not so long ago.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 08:49:59 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 05, 2020, 07:51:34 PM
SF - they promise spending like they never have to carry it through. I kind of want to see them have their bluff called but it would set back the ROI 50+ years if they were ever elected. Be careful what ye wish/vote for

Nice terminology.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 05, 2020, 09:10:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 05, 2020, 07:51:34 PM
SF - they promise spending like they never have to carry it through. I kind of want to see them have their bluff called but it would set back the ROI 50+ years if they were ever elected. Be careful what ye wish/vote for

The neoliberal parties are far more dangerous than SF. 
Michael McDowell was in the IT warning about the Shinners ar maidin. The PDs were the original neoliberals.
Light touch regulation brought us Anglo Irish.
EUR 35bn . The budget deficit in 2010 was 32% of GDP. Hundreds of suicides post crash. Thousands emigrated.

People like him only see what they want to see.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:17:15 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Has she not canvassed for Labour too in the 26 counties?
How can you go from SDLP/Labour to FG?

Nasty work.  What do the people of sth. Belfast think of this?

SDLP don't know where to go in the south - Durkan was standing as a FG lad not so long ago.

I went out & voted for her, but it was more just to get rid of thon bitter individual Little. However, while it is clear she doesn't like FF, I thought she was more a Labour type. If she's tying up with FG, she will be losing a vote here.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 09:25:10 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:17:15 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Has she not canvassed for Labour too in the 26 counties?
How can you go from SDLP/Labour to FG?

Nasty work.  What do the people of sth. Belfast think of this?

SDLP don't know where to go in the south - Durkan was standing as a FG lad not so long ago.

I went out & voted for her, but it was more just to get rid of thon bitter individual Little. However, while it is clear she doesn't like FF, I thought she was more a Labour type. If she's tying up with FG, she will be losing a vote here.

Totally agree.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 05, 2020, 09:25:34 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 05, 2020, 09:10:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 05, 2020, 07:51:34 PM
SF - they promise spending like they never have to carry it through. I kind of want to see them have their bluff called but it would set back the ROI 50+ years if they were ever elected. Be careful what ye wish/vote for

The neoliberal parties are far more dangerous than SF. 
Michael McDowell was in the IT warning about the Shinners ar maidin. The PDs were the original neoliberals.
Light touch regulation brought us Anglo Irish.
EUR 35bn . The budget deficit in 2010 was 32% of GDP. Hundreds of suicides post crash. Thousands emigrated.

People like him only see what they want to see.

FF definitely a lot to answer for. Regulators and Banks caused a huge economic crash (worldwide not just ROI) But personal responsibility was shy on the ground post crash as well.
I bought a house in 2005... not 3, like lots of other lunatics.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:26:27 PM
Quote from: Rois on February 05, 2020, 08:09:12 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 07:50:03 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Except that after resigning the whip,she appeared at the Labour Ard Fheis, and had been vocal of her support for Labour in the south, and had cancassed for them. Which makes her sudden efforts of behalf of FG all the more laughable. It just shows that Lab and FG are of the same ilk when you scratch the surface.

Labour and Fine Gael are of the same ilk? Aye.  ::)

AFAIK Ms. Hanna isn't a member of Fine Gael or the Irish Labour party and is otherwise free as an Irish citizen to canvas whomever she wants to. If there is a possible conflict of interest it's up to her to explain it. Without knowing which FG candidate she's supporting, it's possible it's in a seat where no Labour party candidate is standing. Citations are needed.
She was canvassing for Emer Currie, daughter of civil rights campaigner and one of the original SDLP founders, Austin Currie, himself representing FG for a number of years.
She was also canvassing for Neale Richmond in Dublin Rathdown, which also had a Labour Candidate. With Labour being the parry she has been vocal in her support of to date. While her colleague Pat Catney has been in Dublin Bay North canvassing for Aodhán Ó'Riordán of Labour. And Colum is if course backing FF. A shambles.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 05, 2020, 09:26:37 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:17:15 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Has she not canvassed for Labour too in the 26 counties?
How can you go from SDLP/Labour to FG?

Nasty work.  What do the people of sth. Belfast think of this?

SDLP don't know where to go in the south - Durkan was standing as a FG lad not so long ago.

I went out & voted for her, but it was more just to get rid of thon bitter individual Little. However, while it is clear she doesn't like FF, I thought she was more a Labour type. If she's tying up with FG, she will be losing a vote here.

WOW! Could prove crucial with her 15000+ majority
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:31:11 PM
Erm....assuming the Greens & SF stand again in the next one - what happens then? Her thumping majority this time will hardly be repeated again, smartarse.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:31:17 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
Labour and Fine Gael are of the same ilk? Aye.  ::)

Aside from their record in government, consider that Labour refuse to consider the idea of coalition with SF if the opportunity arose to form a left wing government, but they couldn't get into bed with FG quickly enough. Same ilk.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 05, 2020, 09:39:19 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:31:11 PM
Erm....assuming the Greens & SF stand again in the next one - what happens then? Her thumping majority this time will hardly be repeated again, smartarse.

And risk losing NB back to the DUP? The dye is cast now....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:50:48 PM
It's usually 'the die is cast' but sure just carry on regardless.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 09:59:15 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:31:17 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
Labour and Fine Gael are of the same ilk? Aye.  ::)

Aside from their record in government, consider that Labour refuse to consider the idea of coalition with SF if the opportunity arose to form a left wing government, but they couldn't get into bed with FG quickly enough. Same ilk.

have Labour refused to consider a coalition with SF?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:00:12 PM
Claire Hanna is a good politician but she is giving confused messages about her political leanings and caertainly has veered off path from her parties alliance with FF. Her canvassing for FG and Senator Neale Richmond in a plush part of Dublin doesn't really stack up with what I thought were her socialist labour principles. Maybe she is just trying to appeal to her South Belfast constituents many of whom come from fairly affluent backgrounds but she appears to be on a solo run from within the party.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 11:15:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 05, 2020, 09:26:37 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:17:15 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 07:42:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 05, 2020, 07:15:45 PM
Is Hanna canvassing for FG???  OMG, what a joke.  Nasty news if that's true.

She resigned from the SDLP whip this time last year in protest at the party deciding to form an electoral alliance with Fianna Fail though she still retains party membership. Nothing that controversial IMO about her helping to canvas for a Fine Gael candidate in that aspect as her opposition to a SDLP/Fianna Fail partnership was well known for some time before the vote to approve it took place, and resigned the SDLP whip & position as the party's Brexit spokesperson on such principle.

Has she not canvassed for Labour too in the 26 counties?
How can you go from SDLP/Labour to FG?

Nasty work.  What do the people of sth. Belfast think of this?

SDLP don't know where to go in the south - Durkan was standing as a FG lad not so long ago.

I went out & voted for her, but it was more just to get rid of thon bitter individual Little. However, while it is clear she doesn't like FF, I thought she was more a Labour type. If she's tying up with FG, she will be losing a vote here.

WOW! Could prove crucial with her 15000+ majority

She's embarrassing herself - SDLP, Labour, FG....who knows what party tomorrow.  Stoops seem to be in disarray esp. with Durkan a FG politician.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 06, 2020, 08:29:10 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 09:59:15 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:31:17 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
Labour and Fine Gael are of the same ilk? Aye.  ::)

Aside from their record in government, consider that Labour refuse to consider the idea of coalition with SF if the opportunity arose to form a left wing government, but they couldn't get into bed with FG quickly enough. Same ilk.

have Labour refused to consider a coalition with SF?
Not sure if it's as far as an outright refusal, but it's close enough. Howlin said he'd be personally against it.  Links are still too strong to terrorism, punishment beatings and stances like their one on the Special Criminal Court show they have not moved on from their PIRA days, and someone other than Mary Lou is calling the shots.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 06, 2020, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:00:12 PM
Claire Hanna is a good politician but she is giving confused messages about her political leanings and caertainly has veered off path from her parties alliance with FF. Her canvassing for FG and Senator Neale Richmond in a plush part of Dublin doesn't really stack up with what I thought were her socialist labour principles. Maybe she is just trying to appeal to her South Belfast constituents many of whom come from fairly affluent backgrounds but she appears to be on a solo run from within the party.

It's been long and manys a day since the SDLP had social labour principles.

Conor Murphy must have been using the same IRA men to get his information on Paul Quinn as Bertie Ahern it seems.

He should apologise and should have done it 13 years ago.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 06, 2020, 09:09:53 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 06, 2020, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:00:12 PM
Claire Hanna is a good politician but she is giving confused messages about her political leanings and caertainly has veered off path from her parties alliance with FF. Her canvassing for FG and Senator Neale Richmond in a plush part of Dublin doesn't really stack up with what I thought were her socialist labour principles. Maybe she is just trying to appeal to her South Belfast constituents many of whom come from fairly affluent backgrounds but she appears to be on a solo run from within the party.

It's been long and manys a day since the SDLP had social labour principles.

Conor Murphy must have been using the same IRA men to get his information on Paul Quinn as Bertie Ahern it seems.

He should apologise and should have done it 13 years ago.

In a normal society he would never be Finance minister in the first place based on his comments in the past. Disgraceful cover up  for his friends in Armagh
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 06, 2020, 09:46:11 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 06, 2020, 08:29:10 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 09:59:15 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:31:17 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 05, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
Labour and Fine Gael are of the same ilk? Aye.  ::)

Aside from their record in government, consider that Labour refuse to consider the idea of coalition with SF if the opportunity arose to form a left wing government, but they couldn't get into bed with FG quickly enough. Same ilk.

have Labour refused to consider a coalition with SF?
Not sure if it's as far as an outright refusal, but it's close enough. Howlin said he'd be personally against it.  Links are still too strong to terrorism, punishment beatings and stances like their one on the Special Criminal Court show they have not moved on from their PIRA days, and someone other than Mary Lou is calling the shots.
All of which is utter nonsense, as Brendan well knows.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Keyser soze on February 06, 2020, 09:53:58 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 05, 2020, 09:39:19 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 05, 2020, 09:31:11 PM
Erm....assuming the Greens & SF stand again in the next one - what happens then? Her thumping majority this time will hardly be repeated again, smartarse.

And risk losing NB back to the DUP? The dye is cast now....

People assuming an air of erudition who inevitably show just how stupid they are is what makes the internet great.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 06, 2020, 10:58:26 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 06, 2020, 09:09:53 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 06, 2020, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:00:12 PM
Claire Hanna is a good politician but she is giving confused messages about her political leanings and caertainly has veered off path from her parties alliance with FF. Her canvassing for FG and Senator Neale Richmond in a plush part of Dublin doesn't really stack up with what I thought were her socialist labour principles. Maybe she is just trying to appeal to her South Belfast constituents many of whom come from fairly affluent backgrounds but she appears to be on a solo run from within the party.

It's been long and manys a day since the SDLP had social labour principles.

Conor Murphy must have been using the same IRA men to get his information on Paul Quinn as Bertie Ahern it seems.

He should apologise and should have done it 13 years ago.

In a normal society he would never be Finance minister in the first place based on his comments in the past. Disgraceful cover up  for his friends in Armagh

In a normal society most of those sitting in Stormont would struggle to get a decent job in any sector. They're hardly picked for their talent, are they?


Has anyone asked the PSNI if Paul Quinn "was known" to them prior to his horrific murder?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 06, 2020, 11:24:58 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda%C3%AD-link-quinn-murder-to-fuel-smugglers-1.975144?mode=amp

The Gardaí at the time believed that the murder related to disputes over fuel laundering. Peter Robinson, First Minister at the time said, he didn't believe that paramilitaries were involved based on the information he had at the time. The authorities believed this was a dispute between rival people and arose out of a fist fight. This is contemporary reporting by the most respected paper in ROI allegedly. Draw your own conclusions.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 11:51:59 AM
How it took Mairead McGuinness FG MEP over 50 years to visit a nazi death camp is beyond me but somehow she pops up someplace in Cavan warning us to take heed of the lessons of Auschwitz after a recent visit there ;D
Hot on the heels, we have Michael McDowell ex FG warning us to remember the negative effects of the Weimar Republic - Germany 1919 to 1930s.

I'd hope that people still remember the basics from secondary school history lessons,  causes of WW1 - , Versailles treaty,  rise in anti semitism, Weimar Republic, hyperinflation, rise of Nazis and around the world the rise of  Blackshirts and  ahem... Blueshirts. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 06, 2020, 12:28:38 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 11:51:59 AM
How it took Mairead McGuinness FG MEP over 50 years to visit a nazi death camp is beyond me but somehow she pops up someplace in Cavan warning us to take heed of the lessons of Auschwitz after a recent visit there ;D
Hot on the heels, we have Michael McDowell ex FG warning us to remember the negative effects of the Weimar Republic - Germany 1919 to 1930s.

I'd hope that people still remember the basics from secondary school history lessons,  causes of WW1 - , Versailles treaty,  rise in anti semitism, Weimar Republic, hyperinflation, rise of Nazis and around the world the rise of  Blackshirts and  ahem... Blueshirts.

Don't forget the Irish republican Nazi collaborators such as  Sean Russell (who has a statue in Fairview Park where a republican commemoration ceremony in his honour took place in 2003 featuring Mary Lou McDonald and Brian Keenan among others) and Frank Ryan. And Dan Breen who sent birthday greetings to Hitler in 1943 and attended the Dublin funeral of Nazi spy Hermann Goertz in 1947.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Taylor on February 06, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
The Paul Quinn story is being used by both sides in the election which is shameful towards the family.

SF are being bashed from all sides in the North and South because of it however if there wasnt an election would the family have ever gotten an apology?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 06, 2020, 12:52:29 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/harry-mcgee-s-final-seat-prediction-for-election-2020-1.4139708?mode=amp
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 01:47:07 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 06, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
The Paul Quinn story is being used by both sides in the election which is shameful towards the family.

SF are being bashed from all sides in the North and South because of it however if there wasnt an election would the family have ever gotten an apology?

That's the intention.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 06, 2020, 01:50:57 PM
The changes in constituencies are a reflection of demographic changes over time. Kildare and meath used to be 5 seaters . Now Meath is 2x 3 and Kildare is 2*4.
Donegal , Mayo and Kerry used to be 2x3. Now Donegal and Kerry are 5 seats and Mayo godhelpus is 4.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Denn Forever on February 06, 2020, 01:54:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 06, 2020, 01:50:57 PM
The changes in constituencies are a reflection of demographic changes over time. Kildare and meath used to be 5 seaters . Now Meath is 2x 3 and Kildare is 2*4.
Donegal , Mayo and Kerry used to be 2x3. Now Donegal and Kerry are 5 seats and Mayo godhelpus is 4.

He used to fun.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Taylor on February 06, 2020, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 01:47:07 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 06, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
The Paul Quinn story is being used by both sides in the election which is shameful towards the family.

SF are being bashed from all sides in the North and South because of it however if there wasnt an election would the family have ever gotten an apology?

That's the intention.

Correct - but would the apology have come if there wasnt an election upcoming (and this had been brought up by opposing parties).

Briege Quinn has been asking for an apology for years going by reports
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 06, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 06, 2020, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 01:47:07 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 06, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
The Paul Quinn story is being used by both sides in the election which is shameful towards the family.

SF are being bashed from all sides in the North and South because of it however if there wasnt an election would the family have ever gotten an apology?

That's the intention.

Correct - but would the apology have come if there wasnt an election upcoming (and this had been brought up by opposing parties).

Briege Quinn has been asking for an apology for years going by reports

SF have been propelled into the leader debates and Mary Lou appeared on the live TV debates. She was cornered on this issue and rightly so. in 24 hours she went from denying what Murphy had said, to having to apologise on his behalf and insist he would withdraw the remarks. She's been caught out lying and SF haven't handled the issue well at all.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 06, 2020, 02:24:42 PM
SF have not handled it great. What impact is this likely to have on the votes would people reckon?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Harold Disgracey on February 06, 2020, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 06, 2020, 02:24:42 PM
SF have not handled it great. What impact is this likely to have on the votes would people reckon?

I don't think it'll have the effect certain parties hope it will. Those most vocal on the Quinn's were never likely to vote for the shinners.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 06, 2020, 02:24:42 PM
SF have not handled it great. What impact is this likely to have on the votes would people reckon?
if previous attempts are anything to go by, SF's profile won't suffer.
It was a small last card, flogged to death by all media sources. Nevertheless,  as predictable as ever, Pat Kenny frothing at the mouth got some more milage interviewing Mary Lou this morning when bringing up every IRA atrocity possible.
I think Mary Lou did not deal with Kenny's singular outrage as Adams would have and did when ambushed on the LLS all those years ago, by saying something to the effect, if you want to discuss suffering, then all sides have suffered but how do we deal with it, what process have you got in mind to help people deal with what has happened  besides one sided outbursts of emotional outrage?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 03:25:28 PM
One thing that we are reminded of from this week, is that the Dublin government/media are on a par with the Belfast and London media/government when it comes to the old propaganda and SF bashing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 06, 2020, 03:36:36 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 03:25:28 PM
One thing that we are reminded of from this week, is that the Dublin government/media are on a par with the Belfast and London media/government when it comes to the old propaganda and SF bashing.
Most journalists are groupthinkers. The system doesn't work for them or their readers but they will still parrot what the people in power say.

https://mavenroundtable.io/communityindependentjournal/arts/journalism-101-if-someone-says-it-s-raining-another-person-says-it-s-dry-it-s-not-your-job-to-mAy2UiIf3UC-DHRo1f9iFg
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 06, 2020, 04:06:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 06, 2020, 01:50:57 PM
The changes in constituencies are a reflection of demographic changes over time. Kildare and meath used to be 5 seaters . Now Meath is 2x 3 and Kildare is 2*4.
Donegal , Mayo and Kerry used to be 2x3. Now Donegal and Kerry are 5 seats and Mayo godhelpus is 4.

A couple of thousand in South Mayo are in with Galway West though.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 03:25:28 PM
One thing that we are reminded of from this week, is that the Dublin government/media are on a par with the Belfast and London media/government when it comes to the old propaganda and SF bashing.
A frenzy of coordinated bashing.
What is of surprise though is the lack of impact, even managing opposite effects. Something has changed in a large portion of today's  u30 generation.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 06, 2020, 04:17:16 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 06, 2020, 04:06:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 06, 2020, 01:50:57 PM
The changes in constituencies are a reflection of demographic changes over time. Kildare and meath used to be 5 seaters . Now Meath is 2x 3 and Kildare is 2*4.
Donegal , Mayo and Kerry used to be 2x3. Now Donegal and Kerry are 5 seats and Mayo godhelpus is 4.

A couple of thousand in South Mayo are in with Galway West though.
That's true but seats are down by a third from the 1980s and the couple of thousand wouldn't merit another seat.
All the job growth is in Dublin. 
This doesn't make economic sense.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 06, 2020, 04:19:46 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 03:25:28 PM
One thing that we are reminded of from this week, is that the Dublin government/media are on a par with the Belfast and London media/government when it comes to the old propaganda and SF bashing.
A frenzy of coordinated bashing.
What is of surprise though is the lack of impact, even managing opposite effects. Something has changed in a large portion of today's  u30 generation.

They don't watch the news or read papers.

Indeed its debatable as to whether they get much information about current affairs at all.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ballinaman on February 06, 2020, 04:35:33 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 06, 2020, 04:19:46 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 03:25:28 PM
One thing that we are reminded of from this week, is that the Dublin government/media are on a par with the Belfast and London media/government when it comes to the old propaganda and SF bashing.
A frenzy of coordinated bashing.
What is of surprise though is the lack of impact, even managing opposite effects. Something has changed in a large portion of today's  u30 generation.

They don't watch the news or read papers.

Indeed its debatable as to whether they get much information about current affairs at all.
Most definitely , millenials are wired differently in terms of social interaction due to the world that they have grown up in.

I'd very much looking forward to seeing FG smashed but the likelihood of a FF resurgence is taking the shine off things from my perspective.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 04:43:58 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 06, 2020, 04:19:46 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 06, 2020, 03:25:28 PM
One thing that we are reminded of from this week, is that the Dublin government/media are on a par with the Belfast and London media/government when it comes to the old propaganda and SF bashing.
A frenzy of coordinated bashing.
What is of surprise though is the lack of impact, even managing opposite effects. Something has changed in a large portion of today's  u30 generation.

They don't watch the news or read papers.

Indeed its debatable as to whether they get much information about current affairs at all.
With that gnorance and condescension, no wonder you haven't a clue.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 06, 2020, 04:47:11 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-sinn-f%C3%A9in-is-not-a-radical-party-1.4162859

Newton Emerson: Sinn Féin is not a radical party

The party's record in power in the North is characterised by caution


Newton Emerson


Sinn Féin's rise in the polls south of the Border has nothing to do with Northern Ireland, or a united Ireland, let alone with developments at Stormont.

That is no excuse for not looking at the party's record in Stormont to judge how it might perform in the Republic, either in government or supporting a minority government.

Some attention has been paid to Sinn Fein's policy differences North and South but on its own this is facile point-scoring.

Different policies are frequently appropriate in two very different jurisdictions and it is a sign of responsibility to adopt them. Sinn Féin can be at its most irresponsible when attempting all-Ireland consistency. It effectively went on strike at Stormont between 2012 and 2015 to avoid southern criticism over welfare reform.

Sinn Féin returned to Stormont in 2007 to lead the Executive with the DUP. It has since swerved around every difficult decision it could
Views are now being expressed in the Republic about the party's potential danger and radicalism, which reveals how little notice the South pays to the North and how badly it needs an overall picture of Sinn Féin's time in office.

Many people in Northern Ireland believed Sinn Féin would bring about dramatic change when it first entered Stormont 21 years ago but these hopes or fears were wildly misplaced.

The party's record has been characterised above all by caution. As a rule, in policy terms, it moves slowly, springs no surprises and would rather do nothing than upset almost anyone who might ever conceivably vote for it.


This is not explained by constraints in the Stormont system. There is plenty of money and scope to seek dramatic change within devolution's remit.



A contradictory feature of powersharing is that it tends to turn each government department into a silo, with each minister largely free to attempt anything that does not require changing the budget or the law.


The DUP has long made an issue of Sinn Féin ministerial "solo runs", claiming they were a basic flaw in the Belfast Agreement and that preventing them was the main purpose of the 2006 St Andrews Agreement.

Yet there has only been one significant Sinn Féin solo-run, in 2002, when the then education minister Martin McGuinness abolished academic selection.

Any surprises would be because Sinn Féin is inevitably a different party in the South
This was in practice a hit-and-run, signed off hours before a lengthy Stormont collapse. It exacerbated the problem it was meant to solve, with schools adopting their own unregulated entrance tests. Sinn Féin eventually abandoned the education portfolio and has never attempted anything like it again, in any department.

The 2002 decision was unpopular with many Catholic grammar schools and hence with many Catholics, making it a vanishingly rare case of Sinn Féin putting its progressive principles before electoral self-interest. Even then, McGuinness only approved it on his way out the door, perhaps thinking there might never be another Assembly election.

Sinn Féin returned to Stormont in 2007 to lead the Executive with the DUP. It has since swerved around every difficult decision it could but this is a characteristic it shares with the DUP.

Celtic Cuba
Policies that it has implemented with the DUP include devolving corporation tax with the intention of lowering it, reducing civil service numbers by 10 per cent through a generous redundancy scheme and using UK-imposed private finance schemes to build schools and hospitals, none of which indicates plotting for a Celtic Cuba.

It is true that when it all became too much for Sinn Féin it stalled Executive business, failed to produce a budget and finally walked out. Perhaps it could play similar games with a Dublin government. However, it would have far fewer options to do so without simply casting itself back into opposition.


It is also true that politics at Stormont is interspersed with divisive rows over nationality, identity and the legacy of the Troubles, sometimes stirred up by Sinn Féin for cynical purposes. But this cannot happen in the Republic, due to the lamentable shortage of Protestants.

Sinn Féin's relationship with the IRA raises serious questions North and South, one of which is whether Provisional IRA membership should still be an offence. Legalisation might help sort out the political from the criminal, which will take on a new urgency if Sinn Féin is included in a sovereign government.

If other parties in the Republic believe Sinn Féin is run by a backroom Belfast cabal, northern precedent suggests it would not pursue subversion or extremism once in southern office.

Any surprises would be because Sinn Féin is inevitably a different party in the South, due to political and social circumstances. Broadly speaking, its voters are more motivated by bread-and-butter issues and its representatives and activists are more middle-class.

That might make for more radical postures in the conventional, left-wing sense. But the real danger is where some of Sinn Féin's supporters might turn next, after a spell of power or influence reveals it is a party much like all the others.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 06, 2020, 10:33:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 06, 2020, 04:43:58 PM
With that gnorance and condescension, no wonder you haven't a clue.

Social media is not a source of information ffs.

Fukin "like" this and pass it on 20 times and ye'll win the lottery at the weekend or some similar shite  ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
Can someone please dumb down how the voting system works. How are quotas decided upon, how are surplus votes distrubuted etc

Lets say, first preference votes in a 5 seat cons.

x has 12,200
y has 7,800
z has 7,400
a has 4,300
b has 3,600
c has 2,100
d has 1,700
e has 1,000
f has 670
g has 410
h has 200
I has 120
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 07, 2020, 12:23:11 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
Can someone please dumb down how the voting system works. How are quotas decided upon, how are surplus votes distrubuted etc

Lets say, first preference votes in a 5 seat cons.

x has 12,200
y has 7,800
z has 7,400
a has 4,300
b has 3,600
c has 2,100
d has 1,700
e has 1,000
f has 670
g has 410
h has 200
I has 120
(Can't say I fully understand it.)
Courtesy of The Journal:
Explainer: How does Ireland's voting system work?
Here's all you need to know about what happens to your vote.
AS PEOPLE GET set to vote in the general election tomorrow, we're going to take a look at how the Irish voting system works.
In Ireland, all elections – Dáil, Seanad, presidential, European and local elections – are decided through proportional representation with a single transferable vote (PR-STV).
Voters indicate their first and subsequent choices for the candidates on the ballot paper by marking the relevant number in the box beside a person's name. You indicate your first choice by writing '1′ opposite that candidate and '2′ opposite your second choice, and so on.
By doing so, you are instructing that your vote be transferred to your second preference if your first choice is either elected with a surplus of votes over the quota or is eliminated.
If your second choice is elected or eliminated, your vote may be transferred to your third choice, and so on.
You can order some or all candidates or stop at just one. If there's someone you really DON'T want to see elected, it's best to give preferences to everyone but them. As the count continues and the number of non-transferable votes add up, the number of votes required to be elected decreases.
How are the votes counted?
At the count centre, all the ballot papers are mixed and then sorted according to first preferences. Spoiled papers – which Citizens Information lists as those without an official stamp; those which do not indicate a clear choice, for example, if you have indicated number 1 twice on the paper; or if anything is written on the ballot paper by which the voter can be identified – are removed.
The quota, the minimum number of valid votes each candidate must get to be elected, is then calculated.
The Department of the Environment notes that in a three-seat constituency, for example, the quota is a quarter of the valid votes, plus one – only three candidates can get this number of votes. In a four-seater, the quota is a fifth of the valid votes, plus one, and so on.
Surplus votes
If a candidate receives more than the quota on any count, the surplus votes are transferred to the remaining candidates in proportion to the next available preferences indicated by voters.
Citizens Information has given this breakdown as an example:
If candidate A receives 900 votes more than the quota on the first count and, on examining their votes, it is found that 30% of these have next available preferences for candidate B, then candidate B does not get 30% of all candidate A's votes, candidate B gets 30% of A's surplus, that is, 270 votes (30% of 900).
Where a candidate is elected at the second count or a later one, only the votes that brought them over the quota are examined in the surplus distribution – i.e. the votes last transferred to the elected candidate.


The manner in which the surplus is distributed depends on whether the number of transferable papers is greater than, less than or equal to the surplus. You can read more about that here.
If two or more candidates exceed the quota at the same time, the larger surplus is distributed first. The surplus must be distributed if it can elect a candidate or save the lowest candidate from elimination or qualify a candidate to recoup their election expenses or deposit.
Candidates at most elections can recoup their election expenses (up to a maximum of €8,700 at a Dáil election), provided the number of votes they receive at the count exceeds one quarter of the quota.
The last seat can be filled either by a candidate exceeding the quota or being elected without reaching the quota because it is clear that they are ultimately going to be elected.
Candidates can ask for a recount of a particular count or of the entire count. More information on the process is available here.
Pros and cons
Some people argue the PR-STV system is too candidate-focused and leads to localism – i.e. TDs focusing on issues in their local area, rather than pursuing a national vision.
A 2011 Oireachtas report found that this might deter nationally-minded individuals from entering politics, as well as poor national planning "as legislators clamour to deliver services to their own areas".
However, the report also notes there are "equally profound problems with the likely alternatives to PR-STV", stating:
If local accountability is reduced, a clearly articulated 'national interest' to which parliamentarians are accountable is needed.
It has been argued the current system leads to more variety for voters – i.e. TDs being returned from a number of parties. However, in constituencies that elect fewer TDs, it can be very difficult for smaller parties to gain a significant foothold.
As a result of PR-STV, coalition governments are very common in Ireland. The last single party government here was the 1987-89 Fianna Fáil administration.
First past the post
PR-STV is relatively unique, Ireland and Malta are the only countries to use it.
The first past the post system in single-seat constituencies is the second most popular voting system in the world. It's used in the UK, US, India and Canada.
The candidate with the most votes in each constituency becomes an MP. All other votes are disregarded. This type of voting is also known as single member plurality, simple majority voting or plurality voting.
The Oireachtas report mentioned above also looked into various other types of voting, such as alternative or preferential voting, and the closed list system. You can read more information about them here.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Shamrock Shore on February 07, 2020, 12:30:39 PM
Blueshirts are in for a bad day.

To hear the hysterics of Regina Doherty, on the radio this morning castigating Jim O'Callaghan (FF TD in Dublin) for defending the aul divil himself, Gerry Adams, in some case, just showed how desperate they now are.

They won't come third.......but they will lose between 10-15 seats. Hopefully that dreadful woman mentioned above is one of them
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 12:35:40 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
Can someone please dumb down how the voting system works. How are quotas decided upon, how are surplus votes distrubuted etc

Lets say, first preference votes in a 5 seat cons.

x has 12,200
y has 7,800
z has 7,400
a has 4,300
b has 3,600
c has 2,100
d has 1,700
e has 1,000
f has 670
g has 410
h has 200
I has 120

Quota is (number of votes cast /(number of seats +1))+1

Bottom person is eliminated on each count but there also be more than one eliminated e.g. In the example above, h & I are both eliminated since even if h got all of i's transfers, h would still be bottom.

When a candidate is eliminated, each vote is transferred to the person who got #2 on the ballot (in later counts, this could be down to number 5, 6, etc. If the voter hasn't selected a #2, the vote doesn't transfer

When someone is elected with 10000 votes (quota is 9000) and has a surplus of say 1000, they pick bundles of ballots at random from those 10000 votes and distribute them in the same way as above. (I don't think that they recount all 10000 votes and distribute them pro rata as in the article below but I'm open to correction on that)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 07, 2020, 12:30:39 PM
Blueshirts are in for a bad day.

To hear the hysterics of Regina Doherty, on the radio this morning castigating Jim O'Callaghan (FF TD in Dublin) for defending the aul divil himself, Gerry Adams, in some case, just showed how desperate they now are.

They won't come third.......but they will lose between 10-15 seats. Hopefully that dreadful woman mentioned above is one of them

Would be delighted to see her gone, she's useless.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 07, 2020, 12:48:51 PM
In the 26 Cos it's a 'random sample" which in practice is taken from the top of the bundle, meaning a lot of them are in fact already transferred in from other candidates.
This is one reason for narrow losers calling a recount as different votes may get transferred after they're all mixed up again.
In the 6 Cos they divide up the whole lot and then allocate the surplus pro rata.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 12:56:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 07, 2020, 12:30:39 PM
Blueshirts are in for a bad day.

To hear the hysterics of Regina Doherty, on the radio this morning castigating Jim O'Callaghan (FF TD in Dublin) for defending the aul divil himself, Gerry Adams, in some case, just showed how desperate they now are.

They won't come third.......but they will lose between 10-15 seats. Hopefully that dreadful woman mentioned above is one of them

I particularly despise that yoke.

Would be delighted to see her gone, she's useless.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 12:35:40 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
Can someone please dumb down how the voting system works. How are quotas decided upon, how are surplus votes distrubuted etc

Lets say, first preference votes in a 5 seat cons.

x has 12,200
y has 7,800
z has 7,400
a has 4,300
b has 3,600
c has 2,100
d has 1,700
e has 1,000
f has 670
g has 410
h has 200
I has 120

Quota is (number of votes cast /(number of seats +1))+1

Bottom person is eliminated on each count but there also be more than one eliminated e.g. In the example above, h & I are both eliminated since even if h got all of i's transfers, h would still be bottom.

When a candidate is eliminated, each vote is transferred to the person who got #2 on the ballot (in later counts, this could be down to number 5, 6, etc. If the voter hasn't selected a #2, the vote doesn't transfer

When someone is elected with 10000 votes (quota is 9000) and has a surplus of say 1000, they pick bundles of ballots at random from those 10000 votes and distribute them in the same way as above. (I don't think that they recount all 10000 votes and distribute them pro rata as in the article below but I'm open to correction on that)

Thats what I thought, the distrubution of the surplus done at random is a bit mad, better to do it on a pro rata basis. Thanks to both Mayo lads for the reply.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: shark on February 07, 2020, 01:15:11 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 12:35:40 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
Can someone please dumb down how the voting system works. How are quotas decided upon, how are surplus votes distrubuted etc

Lets say, first preference votes in a 5 seat cons.

x has 12,200
y has 7,800
z has 7,400
a has 4,300
b has 3,600
c has 2,100
d has 1,700
e has 1,000
f has 670
g has 410
h has 200
I has 120

Quota is (number of votes cast /(number of seats +1))+1

Bottom person is eliminated on each count but there also be more than one eliminated e.g. In the example above, h & I are both eliminated since even if h got all of i's transfers, h would still be bottom.

When a candidate is eliminated, each vote is transferred to the person who got #2 on the ballot (in later counts, this could be down to number 5, 6, etc. If the voter hasn't selected a #2, the vote doesn't transfer

When someone is elected with 10000 votes (quota is 9000) and has a surplus of say 1000, they pick bundles of ballots at random from those 10000 votes and distribute them in the same way as above. (I don't think that they recount all 10000 votes and distribute them pro rata as in the article below but I'm open to correction on that)

Thats what I thought, the distrubution of the surplus done at random is a bit mad, better to do it on a pro rata basis. Thanks to both Mayo lads for the reply.

The random method is statistically sound though. Of course, if it leads to a tiny difference between two candidates then a recount is justified.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 07, 2020, 01:17:49 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 01:02:35 PM
Thats what I thought, the distrubution of the surplus done at random is a bit mad, better to do it on a pro rata basis. Thanks to both Mayo lads for the reply.

In the 6 counties, all votes are counted for transfers and weighted, so a candidate could get 345.5 votes transferred.
In the 26 counties this does not happen in general, but from the radio this moring it seems it does happen on the first count if a candidate exceeds the quota
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on February 07, 2020, 01:20:45 PM
The rank smell of hypocrisy emanating from the Southern establishment and unionists whose cherished states were born out of violence, murder and the threat of violence is sickening.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on February 07, 2020, 01:21:07 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
Can someone please dumb down how the voting system works. How are quotas decided upon, how are surplus votes distrubuted etc

Lets say, first preference votes in a 5 seat cons.

x has 12,200
y has 7,800
z has 7,400
a has 4,300
b has 3,600
c has 2,100
d has 1,700
e has 1,000
f has 670
g has 410
h has 200
I has 120
I'll explain it using two different examples.

Last time out in Roscommon the total valid poll was 45680, and three seats were available. Therefore you divide 45680 by four (the number of seats plus one) and added 1 to the divided figure, to ensure that four candidates could not possibly reach the quota, i.e. 45680 / 4 = 11420, add 1 = 11421.

In that first count Denis Naughten sailed home with 13936 votes, putting him over the quota by 2515. Therefore his surplus was to be distributed on the second count of 2515. To do this they would check all of Naughten's 13936 votes, see how many votes transferred to each of the other candidates, get their totals and divide it into 2515 to get the proportionate amount to be given to each in the second count. As Naughten was an Independent this vote scattered a little, with Fitzmaurice getting the most (1214), followed Hopkins and Murphy, with the rest receiving small transfers. The contentious aspect is what happens to the surplus votes, as I understand it the votes to be added to the other candidate's piles are taken at random, i.e. they'd take any 1214 of Naughten's No 1's that went No 2 Fitzmaurice and add them in a separate bundle on top of Fitzmaurice's pile.

If every one of Naughten's No 1's were transferable then Fitzmaurice would have got 48% of Naughten's No 2's, about 6727. However it is possible that Naughten got a few No 1's that were "plumpers", i.e. just 1 for him and no other preference. But so long as at least 2516 of Naughten's votes transferred at all then those plumpers would be irrelevant and a calculation would have to be made, unlike in the later example.

Next door in Sligo/Leitrim there were two different examples of how the surplus can work. On the 11th count the Leitrim FF candidate Paddy O'Rourke was eliminated, and his transfers of 6,083 were the 12th count. So his votes would have both a party transfer and a Leitrim/local transfer element. So that count went as follows:

MacSharry (FF, Sligo town) plus 1707, total 13227 (exceeding the quota of 12468)
Reynolds (FG, Leitrim) plus 1171, total 10092
Kenny (SF, Leitrim) plus 1323, total 9294
McLoughlin (FG, Sligo) plus 112, total 10167
Scanlon (FF, South Sligo) plus 1323, total 9145
MacManus (SF, Sligo) plus 48, total 7093

MacSharry was elected but his surplus of 759 would make no difference, as it couldn't elect anyone and MacManus was too far behind to catch Scanlon or Kenny. So he was eliminated and his votes distributed. As these were SF votes and added to by Sligo town left wing transfers then Kenny was going to be the obvious beneficiary, though McLoughlin and Scanlon could pick up some of the Sligo-minded votes here too:

Reynolds +85 total 10177
Kenny +4772 total 14066 (elected)
McLoughlin +362 total 10529
Scanlon +409 total 9554

So Kenny was elected with a surplus of 1598, and as this was higher then MacSharry's, and it was now down to two seats between the three remaining candidates, it was distributed. This is where the other example I mentioned above comes in. Because it is often the case that party transfers may go 1-2-3 and no further, and especially with SF votes, then there is a possibility in later counts that not all of the surplus is transferable for the reason below.

The Kenny surplus was counted by checking only the 4772 votes that he received from his running mate MacManus in order to exceed the quota, not all of his 14066 votes when he was elected as some might think. So they checked those 4772 votes and sure enough many didn't transfer any further, and as it happened the number that were transferable was less than 1598. So instead of doing a calculation of the votes received by each candidate and allocating the surplus proportionally, each vote that the remaining candidates got was effectively a whole vote, as follows:

Reynolds +139 total 10316
McLoughlin +381 total 10910
Scanlon +631 total 10185
Non transferable 447 - but in reality this was 3621 of the 4772 votes that didn't transfer, which meant that the candidates got 100% of the transfers that they actually got off that surplus. And as it was largely Sligo-based to begin with then Scanlon got most, with the added bonus of being FF rather than FG, and McLoughlin got a chunk too.

So the last count was to transfer the surplus MacSharry got of 759 from the first count listed above, which was the 1707 votes he obtained from his FF running mate in Leitrim. And so despite the fact that he trailed going into this count and had looked to be all but gone prior to O'Rourke's elimination, Scanlon was home and dry as these votes had already gone FF 1 FF 2, so they were almost certain to go No 3 as well:

Reynolds +101 total 10417
McLoughlin +21 total 10931
Scanlon +637 total 10822

Here the full 759 surplus was transferable which indicated that the bulk of those votes did continue past 1-2, so Scanlon could have got up to 1433 of the O'Rourke-MacSharry transfers out of the 1707 such votes. Reynolds as a Leitrim candidate did peel off some of those votes, but it wasn't enough to hold on, and with no other votes remaining to transfer McLoughlin and Scanlon were elected without reaching the quota.

It's a rather convoluted way of explaining it I know but this does hopefully show the different factors in how the counts can pan out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 07, 2020, 01:27:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 07, 2020, 01:17:49 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 01:02:35 PM
Thats what I thought, the distrubution of the surplus done at random is a bit mad, better to do it on a pro rata basis. Thanks to both Mayo lads for the reply.

In the 6 counties, all votes are counted for transfers and weighted, so a candidate could get 345.5 votes transferred.
In the 26 counties this does not happen in general, but from the radio this moring it seems it does happen on the first count if a candidate exceeds the quota
That's right, the one exception to the random sample is exceeding the Quota on the 1st Count.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 07, 2020, 01:42:31 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 07, 2020, 12:30:39 PM
Blueshirts are in for a bad day.

To hear the hysterics of Regina Doherty, on the radio this morning castigating Jim O'Callaghan (FF TD in Dublin) for defending the aul divil himself, Gerry Adams, in some case, just showed how desperate they now are.

They won't come third.......but they will lose between 10-15 seats. Hopefully that dreadful woman mentioned above is one of them
First and last time (I hope ) that I ever have to listen to the hysterics of mad dog Regina. What a totally dumb FG stroke.  I'd say McDowell did not put his hand up for that one :)

I thought Jim O'Callaghan FF did well, not just in explaining the objective role of legal services to complainants and to plaintiffs,  the rights of our citizens to have confidential legal advice, the pride "we" take in obtaining legal advice from political opponents, but also his restraint in delivering all that information to such an ignoramous.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 02:09:28 PM
Brilliant Owenmoresider thanks
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 07, 2020, 02:38:03 PM
If I wanted to have two votes counted for two candidates.
One is a profile candidate and the other  a neighbour standing on a local issue
I vote for the neighbour as nr1  and profile candidate nr 2

When my neighbour is eliminated, will my 2nd choice  be transferred to the profile candidate?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 07, 2020, 02:42:37 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 07, 2020, 02:38:03 PM
If I wanted to have two votes counted for two candidates.
One is a profile candidate and the other  a neighbour standing on a local issue
I vote for the neighbour as nr1  and profile candidate nr 2

When my neighbour is eliminated, will my 2nd choice  be transferred to the profile candidate?

Yes, provided your nr2 choice is still in the race at that point.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Assuming FF lead the next govt, who will replace Coveney at Foreign Affairs?

Coveney has done a good job imo and will be a loss
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 07, 2020, 04:31:19 PM
Hopefully not Dilly O'Wee.
McGrath from Cork or Dara Colleary?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Billys Boots on February 07, 2020, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 07, 2020, 02:09:28 PM
Brilliant Owenmoresider thanks

+1, fair play. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 07, 2020, 05:51:11 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Assuming FF lead the next govt, who will replace Coveney at Foreign Affairs?

Coveney has done a good job imo and will be a loss

Have a feeling whoever it is (probably Dara) that Boris will turn the tables and we will see a customs border in Ireland. Could be a good thing if it brings forward a border poll (although Boris won't grant one), but likely we will be the big loser as EU loses their affection and decides a trade deal with UK is more important, especially given that the Irish people are about to make a big signal that Brexit is not as important as Leo or EU thought.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 07, 2020, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Assuming FF lead the next govt, who will replace Coveney at Foreign Affairs?

Coveney has done a good job imo and will be a loss

Coveney will undoubtedly be a loss, himself and Varadkar in fairness are two very capable politicians. His problem was the likes of Flanagan, Murphy & Harris and it was no coincidence that they were largely hidden away during the campaign. I can't think of too many great minds in FF that will make up a formidable front bench and I think it will need new politicians to emerge from the shadows. Micheal Martin has been at the front and centre of most of their campaign, a lot of their shadow ministers have not been very visible either.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 07, 2020, 06:04:23 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 07, 2020, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Assuming FF lead the next govt, who will replace Coveney at Foreign Affairs?

Coveney has done a good job imo and will be a loss

Coveney will undoubtedly be a loss, himself and Varadkar in fairness are two very capable politicians. His problem was the likes of Flanagan, Murphy & Harris and it was no coincidence that they were largely hidden away during the campaign.

Good point. I'd say Leo is kicking himself today that he did not lock Regina away too. D'oh.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 07, 2020, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Assuming FF lead the next govt, who will replace Coveney at Foreign Affairs?

Coveney has done a good job imo and will be a loss

Coveney will undoubtedly be a loss, himself and Varadkar in fairness are two very capable politicians. His problem was the likes of Flanagan, Murphy & Harris and it was no coincidence that they were largely hidden away during the campaign. I can't think of too many great minds in FF that will make up a formidable front bench and I think it will need new politicians to emerge from the shadows. Micheal Martin has been at the front and centre of most of their campaign, a lot of their shadow ministers have not been very visible either.

Agreed on Flanagan and Murphy but I think Harris is okay, the health dept is the most difficult job going and the sláintecare plan at least seems to have cross party support which is the right idea (whether it's the right plan or not remains to be seen)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 07, 2020, 08:04:01 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
Agreed on Flanagan and Murphy but I think Harris is okay, the health dept is the most difficult job going and the sláintecare plan at least seems to have cross party support which is the right idea (whether it's the right plan or not remains to be seen)


I actually have more sympathy for Murphy, as the decisions that led to these problems were made in the previous term and you cannot conjure up houses.
Health is difficult, but surely to God Harris could have ensured that number on trolleys did not actually increase?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: An Watcher on February 07, 2020, 08:46:50 PM
How will these weather conditions affect the vote tomorrow? No doubt the turn out will be down but would there be any particular winners from sonething like less old people heading out to vote
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 07, 2020, 09:00:51 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on February 07, 2020, 08:46:50 PM
How will these weather conditions affect the vote tomorrow? No doubt the turn out will be down but would there be any particular winners from sonething like less old people heading out to vote

I don't think it'll have any bearing - people will vote regardless of the weather.  People will go shopping and will vote on way back etc.

More interesting point is, in my opinion, is would today, Friday, as polling day have made any difference in turnout?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 07, 2020, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 07, 2020, 09:00:51 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on February 07, 2020, 08:46:50 PM
How will these weather conditions affect the vote tomorrow? No doubt the turn out will be down but would there be any particular winners from sonething like less old people heading out to vote

I don't think it'll have any bearing - people will vote regardless of the weather.  People will go shopping and will vote on way back etc.

More interesting point is, in my opinion, is would today, Friday, as polling day have made any difference in turnout?

Difficult to say. We will never know.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 09:19:18 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 07, 2020, 09:00:51 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on February 07, 2020, 08:46:50 PM
How will these weather conditions affect the vote tomorrow? No doubt the turn out will be down but would there be any particular winners from sonething like less old people heading out to vote

I don't think it'll have any bearing - people will vote regardless of the weather.  People will go shopping and will vote on way back etc.

More interesting point is, in my opinion, is would today, Friday, as polling day have made any difference in turnout?

Saturday voting in other countries hasn't shown a higher turnout apparently
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 07, 2020, 09:20:04 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 07, 2020, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 07, 2020, 09:00:51 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on February 07, 2020, 08:46:50 PM
How will these weather conditions affect the vote tomorrow? No doubt the turn out will be down but would there be any particular winners from sonething like less old people heading out to vote

I don't think it'll have any bearing - people will vote regardless of the weather.  People will go shopping and will vote on way back etc.

More interesting point is, in my opinion, is would today, Friday, as polling day have made any difference in turnout?

Difficult to say. We will never know.

That's true.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: OgraAnDun on February 07, 2020, 09:38:46 PM
FF/FG coalition with Coveney as Foreign Minister?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 07, 2020, 09:51:53 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on February 07, 2020, 09:38:46 PM
FF/FG coalition with Coveney as Foreign Minister?

With Dana in the big job.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 08, 2020, 01:37:39 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 07, 2020, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Assuming FF lead the next govt, who will replace Coveney at Foreign Affairs?

Coveney has done a good job imo and will be a loss

Coveney will undoubtedly be a loss, himself and Varadkar in fairness are two very capable politicians. His problem was the likes of Flanagan, Murphy & Harris and it was no coincidence that they were largely hidden away during the campaign. I can't think of too many great minds in FF that will make up a formidable front bench and I think it will need new politicians to emerge from the shadows. Micheal Martin has been at the front and centre of most of their campaign, a lot of their shadow ministers have not been very visible either.

Agreed on Flanagan and Murphy but I think Harris is okay, the health dept is the most difficult job going and the sláintecare plan at least seems to have cross party support which is the right idea (whether it's the right plan or not remains to be seen)
Yep, but the leading lights in FG have to shoulder the blame for running such a poor campaign. The economic success they've had has almost been ignored. The fact that anyone who wants a job has a job, is taken for granted. And that health and housing is just hard to solve. Look around the world. 

Then the shinners have taken huge leafs out of the Trump and Brexit campaigns. Truth irrelevant. Peddle populist ideas and there's a big cohort of the population just lap it up.

The poor oul Greens I feel sorry for. To vote for them you not only need to have the environment front and centre, but you need to be intelligent. Intelligent enough to realize there'll be some small cost. Unlike the shinners, they count on sense rather than pure populism. Hopefully the polls underestimate how well they'll do.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 08, 2020, 04:54:22 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 08, 2020, 01:37:39 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 07, 2020, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 07, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Assuming FF lead the next govt, who will replace Coveney at Foreign Affairs?

Coveney has done a good job imo and will be a loss

Coveney will undoubtedly be a loss, himself and Varadkar in fairness are two very capable politicians. His problem was the likes of Flanagan, Murphy & Harris and it was no coincidence that they were largely hidden away during the campaign. I can't think of too many great minds in FF that will make up a formidable front bench and I think it will need new politicians to emerge from the shadows. Micheal Martin has been at the front and centre of most of their campaign, a lot of their shadow ministers have not been very visible either.

Agreed on Flanagan and Murphy but I think Harris is okay, the health dept is the most difficult job going and the sláintecare plan at least seems to have cross party support which is the right idea (whether it's the right plan or not remains to be seen)
Yep, but the leading lights in FG have to shoulder the blame for running such a poor campaign. The economic success they've had has almost been ignored. The fact that anyone who wants a job has a job, is taken for granted. And that health and housing is just hard to solve. Look around the world. 

Then the shinners have taken huge leafs out of the Trump and Brexit campaigns. Truth irrelevant. Peddle populist ideas and there's a big cohort of the population just lap it up.

The poor oul Greens I feel sorry for. To vote for them you not only need to have the environment front and centre, but you need to be intelligent. Intelligent enough to realize there'll be some small cost. Unlike the shinners, they count on sense rather than pure populism. Hopefully the polls underestimate how well they'll do.

Spot on about the shinners pure populism. Total crap about the greens tho, they've had a free media campaign going for the last 5 years were every natural disaster gets framed within the scope of their paradigm, if the could connect with people at all they'd be pulling g in the votes but they cant cos they think that every1 should think and feel the same way as they do
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Typical of the blue shirts. Sure didn't Seán Kelly use his presidency status to get elected to EU. Ban the both of them
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: whitey on February 08, 2020, 05:20:45 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Every photo I saw of Dara Calleary, he was wearing a Mayo GAA jacket. Maybe we should address that too
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2020, 06:44:24 PM
Vote cast. Only went to 5 on the ballot paper.

Exit polls at 10. Didn't see anyone outside my polling station.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: From the Bunker on February 08, 2020, 07:48:28 PM
Went as far as 4!

15 candidates is to much choice!




Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 08, 2020, 07:52:12 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

You'd imagine the crest one would be. Voted 1-4 myself. Roll on tomorrow.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 08:03:20 PM
Voted all the way to 15. Not voting at least halfway down is potentially leaving the decision to someone else
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 08, 2020, 08:31:42 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2020, 06:44:24 PM
Vote cast. Only went to 5 on the ballot paper.

Exit polls at 10. Didn't see anyone outside my polling station.

I had a call from MRBI around 6pm asking how I'd voted. Maybe they don't fancy standing out in the rain.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 08:35:24 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 08, 2020, 08:31:42 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2020, 06:44:24 PM
Vote cast. Only went to 5 on the ballot paper.

Exit polls at 10. Didn't see anyone outside my polling station.

I had a call from MRBI around 6pm asking how I'd voted. Maybe they don't fancy standing out in the rain.

Landline call presumably? I wonder is that why polls are less reliable now - not everyone has a landline so not everyone is in the sample
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 08, 2020, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 08:35:24 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 08, 2020, 08:31:42 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2020, 06:44:24 PM
Vote cast. Only went to 5 on the ballot paper.

Exit polls at 10. Didn't see anyone outside my polling station.

I had a call from MRBI around 6pm asking how I'd voted. Maybe they don't fancy standing out in the rain.

Landline call presumably? I wonder is that why polls are less reliable now - not everyone has a landline so not everyone is in the sample

No, called on the mobile, which is strange because very few people have that number.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 09:02:26 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 08, 2020, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 08:35:24 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 08, 2020, 08:31:42 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2020, 06:44:24 PM
Vote cast. Only went to 5 on the ballot paper.

Exit polls at 10. Didn't see anyone outside my polling station.

I had a call from MRBI around 6pm asking how I'd voted. Maybe they don't fancy standing out in the rain.

Landline call presumably? I wonder is that why polls are less reliable now - not everyone has a landline so not everyone is in the sample

No, called on the mobile, which is strange because very few people have that number.

That's odd alright. Coulda been one of the neighbours just wondering who you voted for  ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 08, 2020, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Typical of the blue shirts. Sure didn't Seán Kelly use his presidency status to get elected to EU. Ban the both of them

Whatever about FG Sean Kelly is an absolute gent and I won't hear of anything to the contrary.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: From the Bunker on February 08, 2020, 09:24:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 08, 2020, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Typical of the blue shirts. Sure didn't Seán Kelly use his presidency status to get elected to EU. Ban the both of them

Whatever about FG Sean Kelly is an absolute gent and I won't hear of anything to the contrary.

Yes, any comment against Sean Kelly would be divisive and mean spirited.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 09:26:17 PM
When do they start counting?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 08, 2020, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 08, 2020, 09:24:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 08, 2020, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Typical of the blue shirts. Sure didn't Seán Kelly use his presidency status to get elected to EU. Ban the both of them

Whatever about FG Sean Kelly is an absolute gent and I won't hear of anything to the contrary.

Yes, any comment against Sean Kelly would be divisive and mean spirited.
Yeah, apart from the fact that he is a teetotal bollix, I have nothing but good to say about him. ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 08, 2020, 09:39:34 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 09:26:17 PM
When do they start counting?

9am tomorrow.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 08, 2020, 09:49:03 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 08, 2020, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 08, 2020, 09:24:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 08, 2020, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Typical of the blue shirts. Sure didn't Seán Kelly use his presidency status to get elected to EU. Ban the both of them

Whatever about FG Sean Kelly is an absolute gent and I won't hear of anything to the contrary.

Yes, any comment against Sean Kelly would be divisive and mean spirited.
Yeah, apart from the fact that he is a teetotal bollix, I have nothing but good to say about him. ;D
Sean Kelly putting forward his GAA presidency experience as part of his candidature's cv is appropriate IMO, but an ex-player putting foreward his county shirt is taking  the p'iss.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 08, 2020, 09:55:41 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 09:26:17 PM
When do they start counting?

Usually when they start going to primary school.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Captain Obvious on February 08, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2

A mistake by SF to have just 42 candidates running?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:09:03 PM
After getting 10 and 11% last May they probably thought 42 was too many!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 10:10:18 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 08, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2

A mistake by SF to have just 42 candidates running?

Absolutely but nobody could have predicted the SF bounce 4 weeks ago

The comparison with the November by election results will be very interesting in those constituencies considering very little has essentially changed

Disappointed enough with the green vote, thought at the start of the election it'd be more than that
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: balladmaker on February 08, 2020, 10:15:29 PM
SF have the youth vote out .... FG/FF have the older vote ... the future belongs to SF by looks of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: AZOffaly on February 08, 2020, 10:16:39 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 08, 2020, 10:15:29 PM
SF have the youth vote out .... FG/FF have the older vote ... the future belongs to SF by looks of it.

Until they get older and then start voting for FF or FG
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 10:18:00 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 08, 2020, 09:49:03 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 08, 2020, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 08, 2020, 09:24:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 08, 2020, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Typical of the blue shirts. Sure didn't Seán Kelly use his presidency status to get elected to EU. Ban the both of them

Whatever about FG Sean Kelly is an absolute gent and I won't hear of anything to the contrary.

Yes, any comment against Sean Kelly would be divisive and mean spirited.
Yeah, apart from the fact that he is a teetotal bollix, I have nothing but good to say about him. ;D
Sean Kelly putting forward his GAA presidency experience as part of his candidature's cv is appropriate IMO, but an ex-player putting foreward his county shirt is taking  the p'iss.

tbh I cannot understand why anyone in the GAA especially the president can be a member or supports a party that supports partition
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:19:00 PM
There are now 3 major parties in the 26.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 08, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2

A mistake by SF to have just 42 candidates running?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They'll be kicking themselves aye.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 10:18:00 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 08, 2020, 09:49:03 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 08, 2020, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 08, 2020, 09:24:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 08, 2020, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Downtothewire on February 08, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 07, 2020, 11:48:41 PM
Has anyone else noticed that Alan Dillon used MacHale Park for a piece in one of his videos, while he also used the Mayo GAA crest in a graphic that I saw recently online?

I'm pretty sure that both would be a breach of some sort of GAA rules, no?

Typical of the blue shirts. Sure didn't Seán Kelly use his presidency status to get elected to EU. Ban the both of them

Whatever about FG Sean Kelly is an absolute gent and I won't hear of anything to the contrary.

Yes, any comment against Sean Kelly would be divisive and mean spirited.
Yeah, apart from the fact that he is a teetotal bollix, I have nothing but good to say about him. ;D
Sean Kelly putting forward his GAA presidency experience as part of his candidature's cv is appropriate IMO, but an ex-player putting foreward his county shirt is taking  the p'iss.

tbh I cannot understand why anyone in the GAA especially the president can be a member or supports a party that supports partition

What do you expect from FG and FF - Mickey Martin with the usual "coming down here" quotes during the debate.

Two partitionist parties.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 08, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2

A mistake by SF to have just 42 candidates running?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They'll be kicking themselves aye.

They might stall, have another election in a few weeks and run 80 candidates.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 10:33:37 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 08, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2

A mistake by SF to have just 42 candidates running?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They'll be kicking themselves aye.

They might stall, have another election in a few weeks and run 80 candidates.

The fear of that will force the smaller of FF / FG to the table for C&S
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mrdeeds on February 08, 2020, 10:35:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 10:33:37 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 08, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2

A mistake by SF to have just 42 candidates running?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They'll be kicking themselves aye.

They might stall, have another election in a few weeks and run 80 candidates.

The fear of that will force the smaller of FF / FG to the table for C&S

Even a C and S would not work. Opposition would probably have more than half sitting TDs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Zazz on February 08, 2020, 10:38:49 PM
Sinn Fein will find any excuse to not go into government because that would mean having to take responsibility for something instead of being hurlers on the ditch. And unlike the sheep in the North voters in the south might actually vote them out at the next election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:44:27 PM
Quote from: Zazz on February 08, 2020, 10:38:49 PM
Sinn Fein will find any excuse to not go into government because that would mean having to take responsibility for something instead of being hurlers on the ditch. And unlike the sheep in the North voters in the south might actually vote them out at the next election.

Did you make an account just to type that crap aye? ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 08, 2020, 10:49:57 PM
The only feasible government that I can see is a FF/FG mix given that both have ruled out SF. They will need to come together in the national interest to govern the country but I don't see it lasting very long.

The Labour Party has been decimated, SF have over performed and FG have done slightly better than expected. The age profile of the breakdown of the votes is interesting as FF have polled very badly with younger voters. I don't think they will be the natural default party of government for a long time if ever.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 10:51:59 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on February 08, 2020, 10:35:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 10:33:37 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 08, 2020, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 08, 2020, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
FG 22.4%
SF 22.3
FF 22.2
Inds 11.2

A mistake by SF to have just 42 candidates running?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They'll be kicking themselves aye.

They might stall, have another election in a few weeks and run 80 candidates.

The fear of that will force the smaller of FF / FG to the table for C&S

Even a C and S would not work. Opposition would probably have more than half sitting TDs.

Say FF have 50, Greens have 10, FG have 35. FF & green just need 3 more votes for a govt with C & S
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Zazz on February 08, 2020, 11:07:50 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 08, 2020, 10:44:27 PM
Quote from: Zazz on February 08, 2020, 10:38:49 PM
Sinn Fein will find any excuse to not go into government because that would mean having to take responsibility for something instead of being hurlers on the ditch. And unlike the sheep in the North voters in the south might actually vote them out at the next election.

Did you make an account just to type that crap aye? ;D

But it is true. Shinners are scared of being responsible.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Chief on February 08, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
It would take serious brass necks for FF and FG to work together again and present it as change. SF will be in the mix government wise, in some capacity, or it's another election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 11:31:56 PM
Calm down everyone till we see how the seats turn out.
This is a poll of 5,000 people.
We may have to wait a biteen longer for the €65k houses, no taxes and free everything.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 08, 2020, 11:33:49 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 08, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
It would take serious brass necks for FF and FG to work together again and present it as change. SF will be in the mix government wise, in some capacity, or it's another election.
FF and FG can manage with teflon efficiency to present the idea of coalition between themselves as a huge selfless sacriface made in the greater interests of the country.
Personally I believe the Shinners are better off being an effective opposition and planning to be the largest party after the next election.
They need to mature more.
Atm, they lack what Trap referred to as  'personality', they stand for populist causes like pensions and referendum on UI, but what happens after that?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 08, 2020, 11:40:22 PM
Labour down from 6.6% to potentially 4.6 is a disaster following a disaster for them
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 08, 2020, 11:44:30 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 08, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
It would take serious brass necks for FF and FG to work together again and present it as change. SF will be in the mix government wise, in some capacity, or it's another election.

Not at all. I think you underestimate the lust for power and the perks that go with it that exist within politicians. There will be a government that includes FF and Micheál Martin as Taoiseach and my guess is that it will be propped up in a confidence & supply by FG or with an outright coalition of the two. If FF were to take SF in, then Micheál Martin would have no credibility left.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Chief on February 08, 2020, 11:45:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 08, 2020, 11:33:49 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 08, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
It would take serious brass necks for FF and FG to work together again and present it as change. SF will be in the mix government wise, in some capacity, or it's another election.
FF and FG can manage with teflon efficiency to present the idea of coalition between themselves as a huge selfless sacriface made in the greater interests of the country.
Personally I believe the Shinners are better off being an effective opposition and planning to be the largest party after the next election.
They need to mature more.
Atm, they lack what Trap referred to as  'personality', they stand for populist causes like pensions and referendum on UI, but what happens after that?

Perhaps, but even in the event of another confidence and supply or grand coalition (with the help of a few others), the majority will be very slim. Shinners would delight at the chance to cut lumps out of them for as long as it lasts then run more candidates next time round. I can't see Fianna Fáil being that short sighted.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 11:49:12 PM
Let's wait for the seat numbers.....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Dubh driocht on February 09, 2020, 12:03:48 AM
We're living in remarkable times and sometimes when you're in the middle of something its hard to see the bigger picture.
My take is that Ireland is a good country with decent people, shaped by history,spirituality and the weather.  We are reasonably tolerant, hard working and enjoy life but are well aware of the impact of poverty, hunger and unfairness. Like all nationalities there is a darker side, manifested in intolerance which we saw in the brutal murder of Paul Quinn when none had the courage to say stop.
Times move on; the right wing populists in England forced a weak PM into a nonsensical referendum at a time that the decent majority had no leadership and the UK sleep walked into leaving the one decent structure in place to moderate against extremism from left or right.
On this island the short sighted bigotry among some unionists led them to support the UK leaving the EU without thinking of what would happen next. A bit like the otherwise decent Blair government supporting the American war on Iraq.

So now in 2020  we have the decent majority in the North saying that we reject the extreme voices who are essentially nihilistic

And now in the South,  most young people have said they want a change from the boring rhetoric of two right wing parties, to support a party who are far from perfect but offer hope of a nation once again.  And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
This is a GAA forum. We welcome different voices. However there's nothing wrong with supporting a party who are upfront about wanting a United Ireland.
Varadkar and particularly Coveney have served our nation well at an important time. If Martin is to be the next leader of the 26 counties I hope he will have the courage to be a true soldier of destiny.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 09, 2020, 12:06:58 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 08, 2020, 11:44:30 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 08, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
It would take serious brass necks for FF and FG to work together again and present it as change. SF will be in the mix government wise, in some capacity, or it's another election.

Not at all. I think you underestimate the lust for power and the perks that go with it that exist within politicians. There will be a government that includes FF and Micheál Martin as Taoiseach and my guess is that it will be propped up in a confidence & supply by FG or with an outright coalition of the two. If FF were to take SF in, then Micheál Martin would have no credibility left.

Based on that exit poll no guarantee FF will be largest party. I expect FG to end up a few percentages higher based on the near embarrassment of identifying as a FG voter after Tan disaster. Expect if Martin wants to be Taoiseach, he will have to do a deal with SF and Greens.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 09, 2020, 12:10:09 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 09, 2020, 12:06:58 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 08, 2020, 11:44:30 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 08, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
It would take serious brass necks for FF and FG to work together again and present it as change. SF will be in the mix government wise, in some capacity, or it's another election.

Not at all. I think you underestimate the lust for power and the perks that go with it that exist within politicians. There will be a government that includes FF and Micheál Martin as Taoiseach and my guess is that it will be propped up in a confidence & supply by FG or with an outright coalition of the two. If FF were to take SF in, then Micheál Martin would have no credibility left.

Based on that exit poll no guarantee FF will be largest party. I expect FG to end up a few percentages higher based on the near embarrassment of identifying as a FG voter after Tan disaster. Expect if Martin wants to be Taoiseach, he will have to do a deal with SF and Greens.

Current projections are FF 47, FG 43 & SF 35. There will be a lot of marginals but it would still be my opinion that FF will get more transfers than FG and therefore take most seats. SF will probably lose out on 5-10 seats due to not running enough candidates.

Martin would have to resign as leader before he could go into government with SF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 09, 2020, 06:57:33 AM
Micheal Martin will have to be ran if these figures hold up.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 10:06:48 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2020, 11:49:12 PM
Let's wait for the seat numbers.....

It's trína chéile..
A lot of people are obviously unhappy with the Dubs winning 5 in a row.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 10:15:19 AM
Fitzmaurice looking like a first count winner in Ros/G.
Naughten doing well too.
2 FFrs and Kerrane to fight it out for the last seat.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 09, 2020, 10:26:40 AM
Great to see the RTÉ muppets and the Indo journalists having a meltdown this morning - all big sad heads on them.

Loving it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 09, 2020, 11:16:49 AM
SF councillor in Galway West who lost her seat in the locals looking at ~15% now, some turn around!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 11:26:06 AM
Paddy loves a good bandwagon :D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on February 09, 2020, 11:39:41 AM
Rose Conway Walsh heading the mayo count ahead of even Michael Ring. Bizarre stuff
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
Quote from: marty34 on February 09, 2020, 10:26:40 AM
Great to see the RTÉ muppets and the Indo journalists having a meltdown this morning - all big sad heads on them.

Loving it.

It's like a funeral in the rte studios. Also delighted to see Gemma o Doherty and john waters, nasty nazi scumbags getting wiped out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.

Dont we all? We want to see  everyone privileged enough to be elected to the Dail to deliver for the country.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Saffrongael on February 09, 2020, 12:56:25 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.

Can't blame the Brits or the bloc grant isn't big enough in the 6 counties

This is senior hurling (sorry)  :-[
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:00:24 PM
Whats is most incredible is to see hugely conservative constituencies like Roscommon, Mayo and Longford/Westmeath looking like returning a SF TD.

The more i think about it, someone will have to do a deal with them as if there is a re-election, SF will put more candidates forward and completely clean up. So FF or FG would be better to do a deal now or risk an even bigger humiliation. Hope Cavan19 is ok over in the Cavan/Monaghan Count centre!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.
They'll deliver something but it'll be a parcel of shite.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.
They'll deliver something but it'll be a parcel of shite.

As opposed to what? FF or FG delivering a utopian society.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 09, 2020, 01:18:21 PM
Ring and Conway-Walsh tipped to reach quota on first count in Mayo.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.
They'll deliver something but it'll be a parcel of shite.

As opposed to what? FF or FG delivering a utopian society.
I can only judge them on their performance up here which has been a total carve-up between them and the DUP.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.
They'll deliver something but it'll be a parcel of shite.

As opposed to what? FF or FG delivering a utopian society.
I can only judge them on their performance up here which has been a total carve-up between them and the DUP.

And as you know up there is a basket case with purse strings held elsewhere and no government for an extended period due to issues that have been well discussed already. Not comparing apples with apples. I'd also remind you that FF and FG are welcome to run candidates in the 6 counties but of course they dont and they wont
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 01:52:34 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:00:24 PM
Whats is most incredible is to see hugely conservative constituencies like Roscommon, Mayo and Longford/Westmeath looking like returning a SF TD.

The more i think about it, someone will have to do a deal with them as if there is a re-election, SF will put more candidates forward and completely clean up. So FF or FG would be better to do a deal now or risk an even bigger humiliation. Hope Cavan19 is ok over in the Cavan/Monaghan Count centre!

For many 3 seaters in Connacht/Ulster , 2 FF 1 FG was as natural as eating spuds with meat.

People expect SF to.deliver but the ECB is in charge.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 02:33:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 01:52:34 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:00:24 PM
Whats is most incredible is to see hugely conservative constituencies like Roscommon, Mayo and Longford/Westmeath looking like returning a SF TD.

The more i think about it, someone will have to do a deal with them as if there is a re-election, SF will put more candidates forward and completely clean up. So FF or FG would be better to do a deal now or risk an even bigger humiliation. Hope Cavan19 is ok over in the Cavan/Monaghan Count centre!

For many 3 seaters in Connacht/Ulster , 2 FF 1 FG was as natural as eating spuds with meat.

People expect SF to.deliver but the ECB is in charge.

The ECB didn't make is build a children's hospital in the wrong place and mismanage it to the tune of billions.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 02:50:52 PM
RTÉ

"Sinn Féin on course to pick up seats where it has not held them previously"

Including 1918 I doubt it

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 09, 2020, 03:17:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 01:52:34 PM

For many 3 seaters in Connacht/Ulster , 2 FF 1 FG was as natural as eating spuds with meat.

People expect SF to.deliver but the ECB is in charge.

ECB in charge suggests a malign entity somewhere.
It is simply a question that things have to paid for.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 09, 2020, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
I want to see SF deliver now of the back of this vote.
They'll deliver something but it'll be a parcel of shite.

As opposed to what? FF or FG delivering a utopian society.
I can only judge them on their performance up here which has been a total carve-up between them and the DUP.

I feel like it's the episode of Simpson's we're they elect Homer as sanitation commissioner

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on February 09, 2020, 05:40:27 PM
Yer woman on tv saying Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are like two bald men left arguing over a comb.  Was a good one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 05:57:29 PM
Fine Gaels Ministers Eoghan Murphy and Michael Ring making asses of themselves in RTE. Michael disrespecting the Mayo people by claiming they dont know what they want and Eoghan saying  no way FG will talk to biggest % party in country - no wonder they hid him away from cameras for the entire pre election period.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cavan19 on February 09, 2020, 05:58:07 PM
Centre is full of thugs here in Cavan getting a bit rowdy a lot of them seem to have alot of drink taken.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 09, 2020, 06:03:57 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 09, 2020, 05:58:07 PM
Centre is full of thugs here in Cavan getting a bit rowdy a lot of them seem to have alot of drink taken.

Fairly amateur attempt that
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GJL on February 09, 2020, 06:07:34 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 09, 2020, 05:58:07 PM
Centre is full of thugs here in Cavan getting a bit rowdy a lot of them seem to have alot of drink taken.

Oh dear. Not taking it well at all.  ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 06:29:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 09, 2020, 03:17:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 01:52:34 PM

For many 3 seaters in Connacht/Ulster , 2 FF 1 FG was as natural as eating spuds with meat.

People expect SF to.deliver but the ECB is in charge.

ECB in charge suggests a malign entity somewhere.
It is simply a question that things have to paid for.

The ECB is neoliberal. That means plutocracy.
Whether or not the people want it is a political issue.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 09, 2020, 06:51:41 PM
Sinn Fein doing that well, they will regret not running more candidates in a lot of constituencies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 09, 2020, 07:15:31 PM
It's time for change and the people have spoken. FG and FF have proven themselves to be very out of touch with ordinary working people and more particularly with the younger generation. Compatability wise the obvious coalition would be FF/FG but I think it will be very difficult for both FG and FF to ignore the SF mandate and Micheal Martin already appears to be laying the ground for a massive U turn. I think it will be very difficult to form a government since SF will now expect to be equal partners. Interesting times ahead. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:18:10 PM
It's obvious now why the Conor Murphy thing was brought up.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 07:23:53 PM
Anyone, Parties included , have a stab at what we want to change to?
SF have a big decision to make.
Would their instinct  be to avoid Government and let the other 2 come to some arrangement so that SF could be the sole/real opposition?.
If they go into Government they'll have to deal with the real world not pie in the sky. That will cost them most of their new voters who will turn on them when they dont get their pies from the Sky.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 09, 2020, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:18:10 PM
It's obvious now why the Conor Murphy thing was brought up.

Because a man was murdered and he slurred his name?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 09, 2020, 07:36:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 09, 2020, 07:15:31 PM
It's time for change and the people have spoken. FG and FF have proven themselves to be very out of touch with ordinary working people and more particularly with the younger generation. Compatability wise the obvious coalition would be FF/FG but I think it will be very difficult for both FG and FF to ignore the SF mandate and Micheal Martin already appears to be laying the ground for a massive U turn. I think it will be very difficult to form a government since SF will now expect to be equal partners. Interesting times ahead.

I'd say SF don't want to go into govtl since it'd inevitably involve compromise and losing votes. On the other hand, they don't want to be seen to not want to go into govt.

FF & FG on the other hand sure as hell don't want another election
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 09, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Congratulations on your new SF TD topping the poll. And your brilliant predictive powers.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Chief on February 09, 2020, 07:41:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 07:23:53 PM
Anyone, Parties included , have a stab at what we want to change to?
SF have a big decision to make.
Would their instinct  be to avoid Government and let the other 2 come to some arrangement so that SF could be the sole/real opposition?.
If they go into Government they'll have to deal with the real world not pie in the sky. That will cost them most of their new voters who will turn on them when they dont get their pies from the Sky.

Not really - at least not if they're cynical enough.

If you're in SF you'd ideally play it as follows - assuming they're  a junior partner:

1) Quickly achieve two or three high profile things (rent freeze, central bank mortgage caps etc) that will appeal well to your new voters.
2) Do some well-sounding but ultimately harmless things on the Unity front (e.g. Citizens Assembly, speaking rights for Northern MPs in the Dail, Northern voting for Presidential elections etc) to satisfy your hardcore voters.
3) Otherwise behave like opposition and eventually collapse the government for some ultimately avoidable reason and capitalise on their new found momentum in the following election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:18:10 PM
It's obvious now why the Conor Murphy thing was brought up.

Because a man was murdered and he slurred his name?

No, because a 13 year old story was conveniently dragged up the week before an election. An election that the establishment knew SF would do well in.

It goes to show what other parties will drag up to score votes. Disgusting.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 09, 2020, 07:56:12 PM
Fine Gael will have to go back to basics and have a rethink, elect Noel Grealish in as leader and become the anti-immigrant party of choice.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 09, 2020, 07:57:12 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 09, 2020, 05:58:07 PM
Centre is full of thugs here in Cavan getting a bit rowdy a lot of them seem to have alot of drink taken.

Did Cavan win a game @ long last???
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 09, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:18:10 PM
It's obvious now why the Conor Murphy thing was brought up.

Because a man was murdered and he slurred his name?

No, because a 13 year old story was conveniently dragged up the week before an election. An election that the establishment knew SF would do well in.

It goes to show what other parties will drag up to score votes. Disgusting.

If you'd been arsed to read a news paper you'd see it was literally raised every time there was an election north or south. But that doesn't suit your agenda...
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 08:04:06 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 09, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Congratulations on your new SF TD topping the poll. And your brilliant predictive powers.
Hindsight is 20/20 vision.
Fitzmaurice topped the poll here.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 09, 2020, 08:06:52 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 09, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Congratulations on your new SF TD topping the poll. And your brilliant predictive powers.

That one was a doozy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Captain Obvious on February 09, 2020, 08:10:59 PM
Should Leo Varadkar and Martin do the right thing and resign as party leaders after this awful performance.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 08:13:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 09, 2020, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 09, 2020, 07:18:10 PM
It's obvious now why the Conor Murphy thing was brought up.

Because a man was murdered and he slurred his name?

No, because a 13 year old story was conveniently dragged up the week before an election. An election that the establishment knew SF would do well in.

It goes to show what other parties will drag up to score votes. Disgusting.

If you'd been arsed to read a news paper you'd see it was literally raised every time there was an election north or south. But that doesn't suit your agenda...

Maybe it was, but they went to town on it this time. They knew SF was going to have a big election
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 09, 2020, 08:14:49 PM
How many seats have the Shinners left behind?  Quite a few SF candidates have topped the poll on the first count with obscene surpluses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: HiMucker on February 09, 2020, 08:41:24 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2020, 08:14:49 PM
How many seats have the Shinners left behind?  Quite a few SF candidates have topped the poll on the first count with obscene surpluses.
7 by my count. But obviously they didn't predict such a result. A truly historic election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 09, 2020, 08:41:40 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-election-2020-shows-old-political-system-in-ireland-is-finished-1.4167053

2020 shows old political system in Ireland is finished

This is not just a change election - it has changed Irish elections for the foreseeable future


Fintan O'Toole

Updated: about 6 hours ago

    

The inevitable cliché after every general election is that the people have spoken. But this time, the message is that, in electoral terms, there is no single "people".

You don't have to be very old to remember a time, unquestionably, when there was such a thing as a single political system in Ireland.

Almost the entire vote went to three parties of government, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour and almost all of that vote was hoovered up by the two big party machines.

It may be many days before we know fully what Saturday's vote means in terms of the allocation of Dáil seats and many weeks before we know what that in turn means for the formation of a viable government.

But this we know and know full well: that old system is finished and it is not coming back any time soon.

This is not just a change election - it has changed Irish elections themselves for the foreseeable future. And it has done this by altering the very idea of "change" in Irish electoral politics. We know from the exit poll that 48 per cent of respondents felt it "best to have a change of government".

There's nothing at all unusual in that - this is what voters often do. But what that used to mean was change within the rather narrow parameters that the system permitted: mostly, the alteration of a single letter of the alphabet, from FF to FG or vice versa, with a side option of Labour (up if it was out of government, down if it was in) or Independents.







What has happened in 2020 is that, for a huge chunk of voters, change is being seen as something that comes from outside the system. Sinn Féin, the big winner, may be rather more typical of the historic trend in Irish politics than it likes to acknowledge.

But it has been, south of the Border, an outlier, even a pariah. Voters were invited in this election - by the three parties of the old system - to continue to see it that way.

Not without reason, the party that was once inextricable from the IRA and its disastrous campaign of atrocities, was portrayed as a locked cabinet marked "Danger: Radioactive".

But a lot of voters, especially young ones, decided to open that door anyway. They have gone where they were warned not to go and in doing so they have redrawn the map of Irish politics to include territory previously marked "here be dragons".

Why have they done so? Why has an electorate that was arguably one of the most risk-averse in the democratic world chosen to take such a risk? There are perhaps as many reasons as there are voters but two of them are worth contemplating because they have profound implications for the formation of a government.

The first big reason is something that should have been obvious but that took Fine Gael in particular by surprise. It is the plain fact that in 2016 three quarters of the electorate voted for someone other than Fine Gael - but we got (in essence) a Fine Gael government anyway.

Brexit and the stabilisation of the economy helped to obscure the democratic deficit that was at work, but did not make it go away. There is quite simply a huge problem with minority government on the scale we have experienced since 2016. Confidence and supply did not supply much confidence in the existing system - people got a government they did not vote for.

Is it really all that surprising that so many of them have rebelled against the old duopoly that gave them this outcome? And if it's not, we surely have to think very carefully about doing confidence and supply again. Merely switching that system around, so that the faces in government change but we get another government with a quarter of the vote behind it would store up even deeper trouble, and push the electorate towards even more drastic responses.

When nearly a third of voters are saying, according to the exit poll, that the "country needs a radical change in direction", to produce in essence more of the same is not to create stability. It is to preach a gospel of disillusion with the democratic ideal. We know how the message that "the system is rigged" is working out in other countries.

The second big force is that what people mean by "the economy" has altered. On the figures - numbers in employment, GDP growth and so on - Ireland looks like a well-functioning economy and the old rules suggest that the solid mass of voters will reward those currently in power for that.

But if one thing had now been made abundantly clear, it is that "the economy" for most people includes such basic things as whether or not you can get a decent place to live at a cost you can afford and timely access to essential healthcare.

It also includes more intangible things like a sense of security - when so many people live risky, insecure lives, they are willing to take risks with their votes.

Yes, it's the economy stupid, but the definition of it that the old system relies on has come to seem, for about half the electorate, pretty stupid in itself. Any new government will have to start with that truth.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: whitegoodman on February 09, 2020, 08:49:59 PM
Anyone want to hazard a guess at what happens next ?  If neither FG or FF are willing to go into Government with SF and they don't reach a collective 80 seats either is there likely to be another election?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 09, 2020, 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: whitegoodman on February 09, 2020, 08:49:59 PM
Anyone want to hazard a guess at what happens next ?  If neither FG or FF are willing to go into Government with SF and they don't reach a collective 80 seats either is there likely to be another election?

FFG are hypocrites - telling SF to work the DUP and then saying they won't work with SF in the 26 cos.

No surprise the electorate have shunned them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 08:56:22 PM
If no deals done the first meeting of the Dáil won't elect a Taoiseach.
Then it will behove the leader of the biggest party to try and reach a deal with someone and try again to get a Taoiseach elected.
I don't know if the Bunreacht has a time limit laid down to ekect a Taouseach or how long a caretaker can operate.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 09, 2020, 08:56:43 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 09, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Congratulations on your new SF TD topping the poll. And your brilliant predictive powers.

I was waiting for that post to be quoted.  ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on February 09, 2020, 09:00:37 PM
SF candidates getting elected to the Dail when they couldn't get elected to the local councils!
It's ridiculous

Maybe the RIC thing really got people riled up?
Who knew!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 09, 2020, 09:02:13 PM
You think you have problems? Give it a few years & the DUP will be the biggest party in the ROI. Then you'll have something to complain about!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mrdeeds on February 09, 2020, 09:03:46 PM
To hell with the planet.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 09, 2020, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on February 09, 2020, 09:03:46 PM
To hell with the planet.
Green Party policy?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 09, 2020, 09:08:51 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 09, 2020, 09:00:37 PM
SF candidates getting elected to the Dail when they couldn't get elected to the local councils!
It's ridiculous

Maybe the RIC thing really got people riled up?
Who knew!

Sure we had a Mayor up here, who lost his seat in local government elections. What happens...the Shinners promoted him & put him into Stormont as an MLA. Jesus wept.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mrdeeds on February 09, 2020, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 09, 2020, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on February 09, 2020, 09:03:46 PM
To hell with the planet.
Green Party policy?

Quote of the election from Kerry's finest.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 09, 2020, 08:56:43 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 09, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Congratulations on your new SF TD topping the poll. And your brilliant predictive powers.

I was waiting for that post to be quoted.  ;D
Spoiled by getting his fact wrong though ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 09, 2020, 09:47:59 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on February 09, 2020, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 09, 2020, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on February 09, 2020, 09:03:46 PM
To hell with the planet.
Green Party policy?

Quote of the election from Kerry's finest.

You get what you vote for.. and whatever your thoughts they're hugely popular
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: screenexile on February 09, 2020, 10:32:15 PM
I still don't get the Healy Rae thing!

Fair play to Sinn Fein but I really do think this is a protest vote and won't last too long.

They should make hay while the sun shines though the next few weeks will be interesting FG &FF won't want another election quickly as Sinn Fein will nail them with more candidates standing. Interesting tones ahead in the short to medium term!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 09, 2020, 10:36:55 PM
SF 24.5%
FF 22.2%
FG 20.9%
Green 7.1%

Unbelievable results
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 09, 2020, 11:04:36 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 09, 2020, 07:36:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 09, 2020, 07:15:31 PM
It's time for change and the people have spoken. FG and FF have proven themselves to be very out of touch with ordinary working people and more particularly with the younger generation. Compatability wise the obvious coalition would be FF/FG but I think it will be very difficult for both FG and FF to ignore the SF mandate and Micheal Martin already appears to be laying the ground for a massive U turn. I think it will be very difficult to form a government since SF will now expect to be equal partners. Interesting times ahead.

I'd say SF don't want to go into govtl since it'd inevitably involve compromise and losing votes. On the other hand, they don't want to be seen to not want to go into govt.

FF & FG on the other hand sure as hell don't want another election

I think SF would gladly walk into government in the morning due to a number of reasons, the main one being in a position of power to begin plans for a border poll. This is their whole raisin d'etre. It will come with a caveat though and that it is an equal partnership and that they are not junior partners. They might have less seats but they have the highest percentage share of the vote nationwide. It's unlikely they will get an opportunity like this for some time and given the fact that there are ongoing negotiations in relation to a Brexit trade agreement it is an opportunity too good to pass up. The problem is that neither of FF nor FG want them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 09, 2020, 11:06:46 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 09, 2020, 11:04:36 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 09, 2020, 07:36:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 09, 2020, 07:15:31 PM
It's time for change and the people have spoken. FG and FF have proven themselves to be very out of touch with ordinary working people and more particularly with the younger generation. Compatability wise the obvious coalition would be FF/FG but I think it will be very difficult for both FG and FF to ignore the SF mandate and Micheal Martin already appears to be laying the ground for a massive U turn. I think it will be very difficult to form a government since SF will now expect to be equal partners. Interesting times ahead.

I'd say SF don't want to go into govtl since it'd inevitably involve compromise and losing votes. On the other hand, they don't want to be seen to not want to go into govt.

FF & FG on the other hand sure as hell don't want another election

I think SF would gladly walk into government in the morning due to a number of reasons, the main one being in a position of power to begin plans for a border poll. This is their whole raisin d'etre. It will come with a caveat though and that it is an equal partnership and that they are not junior partners. They might have less seats but they have the highest percentage share of the vote nationwide. It's unlikely they will get an opportunity like this for some time and given the fact that there are ongoing negotiations in relation to a Brexit trade agreement it is an opportunity too good to pass up. The problem is that neither of FF nor FG want them.

SF in govt would put an interesting twist on brexit negotiations alright
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 09, 2020, 11:07:57 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 09, 2020, 10:32:15 PM
I still don't get the Healy Rae thing!

Fair play to Sinn Fein but I really do think this is a protest vote and won't last too long.

They should make hay while the sun shines though the next few weeks will be interesting FG &FF won't want another election quickly as Sinn Fein will nail them with more candidates standing. Interesting tones ahead in the short to medium term!
You don't get the Healy Rea thing?? Its a kiddies picnic in comparison with the Michael Lowry thing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on February 09, 2020, 11:14:16 PM
in the North pretty much every major decision which would have required a bit of balls was kicked to touch by SF or DUP, or both.  Tin pot operation anyway with the only taxes raised being rates and carrier bag levy and you can always blame British austerity if you're getting it tight.  Going into sovereign government in the Republic will be a much bigger test for SF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: screenexile on February 09, 2020, 11:21:09 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on February 09, 2020, 11:07:57 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 09, 2020, 10:32:15 PM
I still don't get the Healy Rae thing!

Fair play to Sinn Fein but I really do think this is a protest vote and won't last too long.

They should make hay while the sun shines though the next few weeks will be interesting FG &FF won't want another election quickly as Sinn Fein will nail them with more candidates standing. Interesting tones ahead in the short to medium term!
You don't get the Healy Rea thing?? Its a kiddies picnic in comparison with the Michael Lowry thing.

I'll admit I'm not as familiar with Lowry as the Healy Rea's... gombeenism!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: fearbrags on February 10, 2020, 12:56:49 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 09, 2020, 11:21:09 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on February 09, 2020, 11:07:57 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 09, 2020, 10:32:15 PM

I still don't get the Healy Rae thing!

Fair play to Sinn Fein but I really do think this is a protest vote and won't last too long.

They should make hay while the sun shines though the next few weeks will be interesting FG &FF won't want another election quickly as Sinn Fein will nail them with more candidates standing. Interesting tones ahead in the short to medium term!
You don't get the Healy Rea thing?? Its a kiddies picnic in comparison with the Michael Lowry thing.

I'll admit I'm not as familiar with Lowry as the Healy Rea's... gombeenism!!
Healy Rea's I think have some good  traits  But  Lowry a Born p***k
Lets  say a  p***k from  the start basically stole a good mans company a man that was very good to him  and treated him like a son  . I worked a longside Butler Refrigeration on their last project for Dunnes  and remember well how this went down

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/links-with-dunne-date-to-the-1970s-1.111474

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 10, 2020, 01:07:11 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 09, 2020, 10:32:15 PM
I still don't get the Healy Rae thing!

Fair play to Sinn Fein but I really do think this is a protest vote and won't last too long.

They should make hay while the sun shines though the next few weeks will be interesting FG &FF won't want another election quickly as Sinn Fein will nail them with more candidates standing. Interesting tones ahead in the short to medium term!
Siin Fein added 9 TDs in 2012,  added another 9 TDs in 2016 and probably add on another 9 TDs in 2020
That's some consistent slow burn protest vote you're talking about. The 16 year long protest vote, the slowest hatch protest vote on record.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 02:19:56 AM
10  and 11% last May, Labour 1992
Easy come easy go.....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 10, 2020, 08:09:25 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 09, 2020, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 09, 2020, 08:56:43 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 09, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.

Congratulations on your new SF TD topping the poll. And your brilliant predictive powers.

I was waiting for that post to be quoted.  ;D
Spoiled by getting his fact wrong though ;)

I acknowledge I made a mistake in that Fitzmaurice topped the poll but it isn't spoiled one bit. 17.5% is a long way from 5%!!!!!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 09:42:37 AM
Anyone can get predictions wrong as rich bookies know well.
Getting a fact wrong though seems to be a Sligo thing ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 10:28:05 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.


If you promise €5 on the pension you can do that soon enough, you can even allow people get the pension at 65. If you promise more houses and better transport you cannot easily bring these things into existence quickly. You can take long term decisions that help these things, it isn't clear that this class of voter looks at the planning or long term which is why we are where we are.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 11:04:59 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

They'd only be marginally smaller though which might make a difference, it'd practically be a coalition on equals
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: tyroneman on February 10, 2020, 11:05:11 AM
Anyone recommend a good book that would give a fairly balanced view on the evolution of Irish politics from the 1900s up to date?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

But that's the thing, SF would not be the small partner in government. They will go into any potential government with a bigger % share of the vote albeit with less TD's. It will be an equal partnership which would make it even more difficult for FF to stomach and would not be the basis on which to provide a stable government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 10, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

But that's the thing, SF would not be the small partner in government. They will go into any potential government with a bigger % share of the vote albeit with less TD's. It will be an equal partnership which would make it even more difficult for FF to stomach and would not be the basis on which to provide a stable government.
The number of seats won is far far more important than the number of first preferences achieved. So it won't be equal. FF will have the Taoiseach and be in charge.

But SF will end up with enough seats to demand a big representation around the cabinet table. They will surely get the Health and Housing portfolios that they crave. Probably Tanaiste. Others too. The big debate I'd guess will be whether they can get Doherty into Finance, which FF will resist. I think if they agree/compromise on that portfolio, then they'll form a government, but that won't be easy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 10, 2020, 11:23:38 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

But that's the thing, SF would not be the small partner in government. They will go into any potential government with a bigger % share of the vote albeit with less TD's. It will be an equal partnership which would make it even more difficult for FF to stomach and would not be the basis on which to provide a stable government.
The number of seats won is far far more important than the number of first preferences achieved. So it won't be equal. FF will have the Taoiseach and be in charge.

But SF will end up with enough seats to demand a big representation around the cabinet table. They will surely get the Health and Housing portfolios that they crave. Probably Tanaiste. Others too. The big debate I'd guess will be whether they can get Doherty into Finance, which FF will resist. I think if they agree/compromise on that portfolio, then they'll form a government, but that won't be easy.

From protest to power with no UK govt to fall back on. Squeaky bum time indeed especially in a post Brexit world.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 11:25:28 AM
Quote from: tyroneman on February 10, 2020, 11:05:11 AM
Anyone recommend a good book that would give a fairly balanced view on the evolution of Irish politics from the 1900s up to date?

Ruth Dudley Edwards.
















































;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 11:41:20 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

But that's the thing, SF would not be the small partner in government. They will go into any potential government with a bigger % share of the vote albeit with less TD's. It will be an equal partnership which would make it even more difficult for FF to stomach and would not be the basis on which to provide a stable government.
The number of seats won is far far more important than the number of first preferences achieved. So it won't be equal. FF will have the Taoiseach and be in charge.

But SF will end up with enough seats to demand a big representation around the cabinet table. They will surely get the Health and Housing portfolios that they crave. Probably Tanaiste. Others too. The big debate I'd guess will be whether they can get Doherty into Finance, which FF will resist. I think if they agree/compromise on that portfolio, then they'll form a government, but that won't be easy.

Doherty is probably more capable than anyone on the FF benches
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:46:35 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

But that's the thing, SF would not be the small partner in government. They will go into any potential government with a bigger % share of the vote albeit with less TD's. It will be an equal partnership which would make it even more difficult for FF to stomach and would not be the basis on which to provide a stable government.
The number of seats won is far far more important than the number of first preferences achieved. So it won't be equal. FF will have the Taoiseach and be in charge.

But SF will end up with enough seats to demand a big representation around the cabinet table. They will surely get the Health and Housing portfolios that they crave. Probably Tanaiste. Others too. The big debate I'd guess will be whether they can get Doherty into Finance, which FF will resist. I think if they agree/compromise on that portfolio, then they'll form a government, but that won't be easy.

And ironically, he's probably the best man/woman for the job. (IMO)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 10, 2020, 11:47:50 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 11:41:20 AM

Doherty is probably more capable than anyone on the FF benches

Not exactly a high bar right now though.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 10, 2020, 11:50:11 AM
Either FF/SF with a smaller grouping to get them past 80, or months of wrangling and another election in April, or lo and behold, Leo gets his preferred May election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Also, which Shinner thought it was a good idea to produce the tricolours and sing 'Come Out Ye Black and Tans'?

What a moron.

On a day when everything they touched turned to gold, this bunch of idiots managed to give the perennial naysayers a penalty kick.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 10, 2020, 11:55:37 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 10, 2020, 11:50:11 AM
Either FF/SF with a smaller grouping to get them past 80, or months of wrangling and another election in April, or lo and behold, Leo gets his preferred May election.

Throw a few bob to Kerry and Tipp and they've suddenly four more seats. Far less bother than the Greens would bring.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 10, 2020, 12:09:53 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 10:28:05 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.


If you promise €5 on the pension you can do that soon enough, you can even allow people get the pension at 65. If you promise more houses and better transport you cannot easily bring these things into existence quickly. You can take long term decisions that help these things, it isn't clear that this class of voter looks at the planning or long term which is why we are where we are.

For health all parties are locked into Sláinte-care.  In the short-term firing money at new hires may or may not reap dividends.   The quickest way is to use National Treatment Purchase fund to clear waiting lists.  However, I am guessing that would be anathema to Shinners as it's supporting private medicine. 

The pension increase should be doable in "fiscal space" and any coalition partner would let it go.  The pension age is a longer term item.  In the short-term it wouldn't have a huge impact.  Looking at social welfare spend and demographics in the Republi it is a huge ticking time bomb though.

I think anyone other than Fine Gael would happily accept investment in social housing.  However 6.5billion will not give 100,000 houses plus I don't think you could even find the builders for that kind of volume.  I would guess the likes of FF would certainly agree to some kind of injection there.

Property tax:  You cannot pull that from local authorities without giving them some sort of central money.  Otherwise you will see the roads in rural Ireland going back to the sh1t we had in the past.   Some kind of exemption for lower paid people might wash but completely removing such a source of funding for local government would be calamitous.  It's also strange to see a left-wing party against taxing such an obvious wealth asset as property.

Income tax:  cutting the lower parts of USC could be done but will leave a hole to be filled.   Raising tax on high earners may not sit well with the 1,000 doctors and consultants they want to hire for the health service but I think some comprise could be made.

The hiring spree for health, justice and Gardai will be problematic unless the wealth tax truly delivers but I would see potential coalition partners agreeing an increase of some sort in all those areas.

Special Criminal Court:  Not a hope of carrying that.

Border Poll:  Being in government could help pressure the Brits but it's in the gift of the Secretary of State.  I think Brexit and Scotland will have a lot more influence on this than the Irish Government.

I think a rent-freeze could be done.

Stopping the insurance rip off - remains to be seen what can be done there.   I note in child-care that two of the biggest players have left Ireland altogether.  That doesn't suggest that they were making huge profits from their high premiums. 

I would say in any negotiations they can get more spending on services but no way will there a hope of running deficits so it will have to be done within fiscal limits and with whatever wealth tax income they can get.

Dealing with the private businesses like banks, insurance companies may prove problematic.   They can push more scrutiny but it's a difficult one to legislate for.  As for multi-nationals any changes to corporate tax rates will be watched with interest by London.   Boris is a weasel and if he senses a chance it's no problem to move all those brass-plates from Dublin docklands to London.


Gestures towards pensions, USC etc.. will be made but not fully to the level in Shinners' manifesto.

Unity stuff will be optics.

Special Criminal Court:  Neither FG or FF (even some of smaller parties) will countenance abolition.   Neither FF or FG would allow Shinners hold Justice or Defence portfolio as it would tear their own internal party support apart.

FG are running away and painting Meehawl and FF into a corner here.  After 9 years in government (mostly doing the heavy lifting of austerity) they would prefer to be largest opposition party, critiquing from the sidelines.

FF will be faced with coalition with Shinners or going back to the country and the Shinners becoming the largest party by popularity and seats.

/Jim.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Also, which Shinner thought it was a good idea to produce the tricolours and sing 'Come Out Ye Black and Tans'?

What a moron.

On a day when everything they touched turned to gold, this bunch of idiots managed to give the perennial naysayers a penalty kick.

I don't see why it's controversial which is probably why I don't see too many people getting worked up about it. Why would anyone get worked up about it outside of the blueshirts who realise it's a dig at them over the RIC commemoration? Why would any other self respecting Irish citizen be upset/offended by a song celebrating the fight for independence?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 12:21:06 PM
About the wealth tax and higher rate of PAYE for high earners,
The USC is already charged at 8% on all income over €75k per annum.
A Hospital consultant hoping full time public getting an extra €70k gross would be lucky to take home €30k of that (40% tax, 8% USC, 6% pension, 10% pension levy, 4.9% PRSI).
Hard to see many giving up their private practices for that.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 12:30:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

But that's the thing, SF would not be the small partner in government. They will go into any potential government with a bigger % share of the vote albeit with less TD's. It will be an equal partnership which would make it even more difficult for FF to stomach and would not be the basis on which to provide a stable government.
The number of seats won is far far more important than the number of first preferences achieved. So it won't be equal. FF will have the Taoiseach and be in charge.

But SF will end up with enough seats to demand a big representation around the cabinet table. They will surely get the Health and Housing portfolios that they crave. Probably Tanaiste. Others too. The big debate I'd guess will be whether they can get Doherty into Finance, which FF will resist. I think if they agree/compromise on that portfolio, then they'll form a government, but that won't be easy.

I agree that the party with the bigger number of seats will have the Taoiseach. However after that, the cabinet positions would have to be fairly evenly split and I'd be fairly sure that SF would want Doherty and O'Brion in Finance and Housing as part of any cabinet since they are probably their best 2 performers. Don't think SF would be getting justice anyway!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 10, 2020, 12:48:34 PM
I very much doubt SF would accept anything less that equal partnership, they would be mad to accept less.

Jim O'Callaghan is challenging SF to put forward a Left coalition program for government. It's a numbers game Jim,  hard to form a government with just 60 or so TDs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 10, 2020, 12:50:44 PM
Quote from: five points on February 10, 2020, 11:47:50 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 11:41:20 AM

Doherty is probably more capable than anyone on the FF benches

Not exactly a high bar right now though.
Well, there'll be some fresh faced FF'ers in this time, so we'll see what they're made of. But can't disagree that Doherty would seem more than capable.

It could be a huge benefit in normalising the party if they got Doherty into the finance portfolio, did a decent job and didn't go all commy/marxist like SF threatened to do in the past.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on February 10, 2020, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Also, which Shinner thought it was a good idea to produce the tricolours and sing 'Come Out Ye Black and Tans'?

What a moron.

On a day when everything they touched turned to gold, this bunch of idiots managed to give the perennial naysayers a penalty kick.

I don't see why it's controversial which is probably why I don't see too many people getting worked up about it. Why would anyone get worked up about it outside of the blueshirts who realise it's a dig at them over the RIC commemoration? Why would any other self respecting Irish citizen be upset/offended by a song celebrating the fight for independence?

It was crass, triumphalist and unnecessary.

I don't think too many were offended.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on February 10, 2020, 01:01:23 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 12:30:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 10, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2020, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 01:17:49 AM
I'd say SF now have a tranche of voters that are not very loyal to them and who'll move away if they do not deliver.

and that's the way it should be as FF and FG are finding to their cost.

The days of voting for X because you Da and his Da before him voted due to a taking of sides during the Irish Civil war allowed the DeValera years of destitution, the utter domination of the Catholic Church on civic life and the likes Haughey and the cute hoorism, brown envelopes that led to the financial collapse in the noughties.

Shinners could now have a tough decision to make if FF come knocking on their door as the small partner in government always gets shafted. Martin is a poor leader and he'll bring down any partner he takes into government with him, mark my words.

But that's the thing, SF would not be the small partner in government. They will go into any potential government with a bigger % share of the vote albeit with less TD's. It will be an equal partnership which would make it even more difficult for FF to stomach and would not be the basis on which to provide a stable government.
The number of seats won is far far more important than the number of first preferences achieved. So it won't be equal. FF will have the Taoiseach and be in charge.

But SF will end up with enough seats to demand a big representation around the cabinet table. They will surely get the Health and Housing portfolios that they crave. Probably Tanaiste. Others too. The big debate I'd guess will be whether they can get Doherty into Finance, which FF will resist. I think if they agree/compromise on that portfolio, then they'll form a government, but that won't be easy.

I agree that the party with the bigger number of seats will have the Taoiseach. However after that, the cabinet positions would have to be fairly evenly split and I'd be fairly sure that SF would want Doherty and O'Brion in Finance and Housing as part of any cabinet since they are probably their best 2 performers. Don't think SF would be getting justice anyway!

They said that about education in the North. They still took it, people will get over it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 01:04:44 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 10, 2020, 12:48:34 PM
I very much doubt SF would accept anything less that equal partnership, they would be mad to accept less.

Jim O'Callaghan is challenging SF to put forward a Left coalition program for government. It's a numbers game Jim,  hard to form a government with just 60 or so TDs.

He could walk to protect his seat if they do a deal with SF, sounded adamant on the radio
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 10, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on February 10, 2020, 11:05:11 AM
Anyone recommend a good book that would give a fairly balanced view on the evolution of Irish politics from the 1900s up to date?

https://www.kennys.ie/history/years-of-turbulence-the-irish-revolution-and-its-aftermath.htm
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 01:10:04 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Also, which Shinner thought it was a good idea to produce the tricolours and sing 'Come Out Ye Black and Tans'?

What a moron.

On a day when everything they touched turned to gold, this bunch of idiots managed to give the perennial naysayers a penalty kick.

I don't see why it's controversial which is probably why I don't see too many people getting worked up about it. Why would anyone get worked up about it outside of the blueshirts who realise it's a dig at them over the RIC commemoration? Why would any other self respecting Irish citizen be upset/offended by a song celebrating the fight for independence?

It was crass, triumphalist and unnecessary.

I don't think too many were offended.
They sang A Nation once again and Óró sé do bheatha 'bhaile after Claire Kerrane was declared elected .
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 01:13:13 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Also, which Shinner thought it was a good idea to produce the tricolours and sing 'Come Out Ye Black and Tans'?

What a moron.

On a day when everything they touched turned to gold, this bunch of idiots managed to give the perennial naysayers a penalty kick.

I don't see why it's controversial which is probably why I don't see too many people getting worked up about it. Why would anyone get worked up about it outside of the blueshirts who realise it's a dig at them over the RIC commemoration? Why would any other self respecting Irish citizen be upset/offended by a song celebrating the fight for independence?

It was crass, triumphalist and unnecessary.

I don't think too many were offended.

Couldn't you say that about any song being sung to celebrate an election victory? Yet Pearse Doherty & Padraig McLoughlin in Donegal celebrated by singing 'Óró sé do Bheatha Abhaile'. Haven't seen any criticism what-so-ever of that. Why the difference? Was it purely because Ellis' one was an overt dig at FG over the RIC commemoration?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Harold Disgracey on February 10, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire's supporters sang that well known Provo anthem 'Happy Birthday' to celebrate his victory.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 10, 2020, 01:27:20 PM
Make no mistake. Doesn't matter whether it's left wing or right wing, we are entering the era of the Fíor-Ghael. It's no different to the ethno-nationalistic fervor of the UK waving Union Jacks, or Trumps America where the real Americans fly the stars and stripes. It will eventually rage against everything in particular globalism (to the Fior-Ghael that is multinationals paying no tax, immigrants taking jobs, loss of sovereignty to the EU, vulture funds owning all the property, West-Brit types with all the wealth). Ironically, the ethno-nationalism is itself a global trend coming to a country near you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: tyroneman on February 10, 2020, 01:43:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 10, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on February 10, 2020, 11:05:11 AM
Anyone recommend a good book that would give a fairly balanced view on the evolution of Irish politics from the 1900s up to date?

https://www.kennys.ie/history/years-of-turbulence-the-irish-revolution-and-its-aftermath.htm

Cheers
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 10, 2020, 01:51:06 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 10, 2020, 01:27:20 PM
Make no mistake. Doesn't matter whether it's left wing or right wing, we are entering the era of the Fíor-Ghael. It's no different to the ethno-nationalistic fervor of the UK waving Union Jacks, or Trumps America where the real Americans fly the stars and stripes. It will eventually rage against everything in particular globalism (to the Fior-Ghael that is multinationals paying no tax, immigrants taking jobs, loss of sovereignty to the EU, vulture funds owning all the property, West-Brit types with all the wealth). Ironically, the ethno-nationalism is itself a global trend coming to a country near you.

Ethno nationalism tends to be more of a right wing thing eg Tories, GOP, Likud
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 10, 2020, 02:02:02 PM
RTÉ

"
For the first time since the foundation of the state, Sinn Féin have a TD in Roscommon, and neither Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil are represented in the Dáil."

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Downtothewire on February 10, 2020, 02:11:37 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Also, which Shinner thought it was a good idea to produce the tricolours and sing 'Come Out Ye Black and Tans'?

What a moron.

On a day when everything they touched turned to gold, this bunch of idiots managed to give the perennial naysayers a penalty kick.

I don't see why it's controversial which is probably why I don't see too many people getting worked up about it. Why would anyone get worked up about it outside of the blueshirts who realise it's a dig at them over the RIC commemoration? Why would any other self respecting Irish citizen be upset/offended by a song celebrating the fight for independence?

Well said
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 02:13:20 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 10, 2020, 01:27:20 PM
Make no mistake. Doesn't matter whether it's left wing or right wing, we are entering the era of the Fíor-Ghael. It's no different to the ethno-nationalistic fervor of the UK waving Union Jacks, or Trumps America where the real Americans fly the stars and stripes. It will eventually rage against everything in particular globalism (to the Fior-Ghael that is multinationals paying no tax, immigrants taking jobs, loss of sovereignty to the EU, vulture funds owning all the property, West-Brit types with all the wealth). Ironically, the ethno-nationalism is itself a global trend coming to a country near you.

Utter horseshite.

But well done Roscommon on electing a woman (god forbid) and a 1st Sinn Fein in 100 years. Ye are coming a long way lads, congrats.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 10, 2020, 02:14:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 10, 2020, 01:51:06 PM
Ethno nationalism tends to be more of a right wing thing eg Tories, GOP, Likud

Hmmm. The big ethno-nationalist tyrannies of the past century were all various shades of big-state socialist.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 10, 2020, 02:19:50 PM
Looks like FF won't have a TD in Louth, sadly FG will get over the line when McGahon's votes are redistributed. The last two seats are between Nash of Labour, who won't get many transfers from the north of the county, Fitzer who is surprisingly transfer friendly this time round and the ever popular Green Party candidate Mark Deary. Hopefully Fitzer and Mark will be celebrating in the Spirit Store later this evening, but it's going to be tight.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 10, 2020, 02:23:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 02:13:20 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 10, 2020, 01:27:20 PM
Make no mistake. Doesn't matter whether it's left wing or right wing, we are entering the era of the Fíor-Ghael. It's no different to the ethno-nationalistic fervor of the UK waving Union Jacks, or Trumps America where the real Americans fly the stars and stripes. It will eventually rage against everything in particular globalism (to the Fior-Ghael that is multinationals paying no tax, immigrants taking jobs, loss of sovereignty to the EU, vulture funds owning all the property, West-Brit types with all the wealth). Ironically, the ethno-nationalism is itself a global trend coming to a country near you.

Utter horseshite.

But well done Roscommon on electing a woman (god forbid) and a 1st Sinn Fein in 100 years and probably. Ye are coming a long way lads, congrats.

Roscommon has always thrown up interesting results and btw I have always been a big supporter of our local Sinn Fein councillor and it was nice of Matt Carty to give him a shout-out. A great politician as will Claire be too. Good people. However, as a party, I have my reservations.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 10, 2020, 02:27:46 PM
Kate O Connell, Regina Doherty, Shane Ross & Ruth Coppinger good riddance. The establishment has got a serious kicking, no harm in the long run. It's a small bit worrying that SF councillors that struggled to make seats in the locals, romped home in the General. Looks like a major protest vote, interesting to see how they perform in real life government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cunny Funt on February 10, 2020, 02:29:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 10, 2020, 02:02:02 PM
RTÉ

"
For the first time since the foundation of the state, Sinn Féin have a TD in Roscommon, and neither Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil are represented in the Dáil."

It was coming going by the last election. Two independents and the FF lad just about grabbed the 3rd seat

FF made a big error by putting in a 2nd candidate, they basically fell between two stools. As for FG all faith was lost in them since they closed down the A&E after election promises to keep it open.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 10, 2020, 02:35:23 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 10, 2020, 02:19:50 PM
Looks like FF won't have a TD in Louth, sadly FG will get over the line when McGahon's votes are redistributed. The last two seats are between Nash of Labour, who won't get many transfers from the north of the county, Fitzer who is surprisingly transfer friendly this time round and the ever popular Green Party candidate Mark Deary. Hopefully Fitzer and Mark will be celebrating in the Spirit Store later this evening, but it's going to be tight.

And just as I said that Breathnach (FF) who was on the verge of conceding recieved 2500 transfers and is back in the race.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 02:35:59 PM
For bitter Mr Itchy's information Roscommon had a female TD in the 1960s.
We have a history of dumping TDs and ekected the first Sinn Féin MP in 1917.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 02:42:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 02:35:59 PM
For bitter Mr Itchy's information Roscommon had a female TD in the 1960s.
We have a history of dumping TDs and ekected the first Sinn Féin MP in 1917.

I didnt say it was a 1st woman, I just congratulated you on electing a woman as its seems a rarity in Roscommon.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 10, 2020, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 10, 2020, 02:27:46 PM
Kate O Connell, Regina Doherty, Shane Ross & Ruth Coppinger good riddance. The establishment has got a serious kicking, no harm in the long run. It's a small bit worrying that SF councillors that struggled to make seats in the locals, romped home in the General. Looks like a major protest vote, interesting to see how they perform in real life government.

This
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 10, 2020, 02:57:30 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on February 10, 2020, 02:29:41 PM
It was coming going by the last election. Two independents and the FF lad just about grabbed the 3rd seat

FF made a big error by putting in a 2nd candidate,
they basically fell between two stools. As for FG all faith was lost in them since they closed down the A&E after election promises to keep it open.

Eugene Murphy was shafted by his own HQ.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 10, 2020, 02:59:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 02:42:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 02:35:59 PM
For bitter Mr Itchy's information Roscommon had a female TD in the 1960s.
We have a history of dumping TDs and ekected the first Sinn Féin MP in 1917.

I didnt say it was a 1st woman, I just congratulated you on electing a woman as its seems a rarity in Roscommon.

Curious: when did ye modern, liberal Cavan men elect first women TD. Was it not 2016! We are over 50 years ahead of ye cavemen.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/an-appreciation-joan-burke-1.2890885


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 10, 2020, 03:05:57 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 10, 2020, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 10, 2020, 02:27:46 PM
Kate O Connell, Regina Doherty, Shane Ross & Ruth Coppinger good riddance. The establishment has got a serious kicking, no harm in the long run. It's a small bit worrying that SF councillors that struggled to make seats in the locals, romped home in the General. Looks like a major protest vote, interesting to see how they perform in real life government.

This

I think it's refreshing that the electorate of the Free State has finally woken up to the fact that the establishment parties only wish to serve the vested interests and the elite of society.

I wouldn't say it's worrying at all when you see the mismanagement, corruption and incompetence FF and FG have overseen.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: highorlow on February 10, 2020, 04:00:58 PM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/public-hasnt-shown-confidence-in-our-ability-to-govern-ffs-cowen-calls-for-sf-to-form-left-coalition-38942728.html

Biffo want's none of a SF coalition.

So if we have a left coalition which would be a minority government it will need some form of confidence and supply.

Looks like there will be a fairly big split in the FF camp in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 04:35:03 PM
Shinners sitting on 37 seats.

I presume that's there lot as they only stood one candidate in each constituency barring the likes of Donegal and a few other border constituencies...
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 10, 2020, 04:46:15 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 10, 2020, 04:35:03 PM
Shinners sitting on 37 seats.

I presume that's there lot as they only stood one candidate in each constituency barring the likes of Donegal and a few other border constituencies...

I'd imagine so alright. Cork NW had no SF candidate. I think that's the only constituency that didn't have one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 05:14:28 PM
They got no seat in six Constituencies but 2 in Donegal, Cavan/Monaghan and Louth so 37 total.
Labour/SDP and loonyleft will make around  15 at most plus  say 5 or 6 leftish Independent ... might get up to 60. If the Greens are included maybe 70/72.
FG are determined to go into opposition so over to FF who will be just about the biggest party.
Will FF and FG let them form a minority Government and then vote down anything they dont like?
I heard a FF chap from Cavan on radio earlier calling for Martin to resign while I think FG have a rule that if they lose an Election the leader has to face a confidence vote.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 10, 2020, 05:25:33 PM
Louth will have no Fianna Fáil represenation in Dáil Éireann for the first time in the history of the state.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Denn Forever on February 10, 2020, 05:28:49 PM
who are the CD party? Are they a splinter group?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 10, 2020, 05:36:40 PM
I cannot see a govt without FF based on the figures. There's too much of a 'motley crew' (of parties) to form a left wing government. FF have a lot of thinking and soul searching  to do over the next few weeks.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 05:38:16 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on February 10, 2020, 05:25:33 PM
Louth will have no Fianna Fáil represenation in Dáil Éireann for the first time in the history of the state.
No FF TDs in Meath West or Ros/Galway.  None elected in Kildare South but Ó Fearghail returned automatically as outgoing Ceann Comhairle.
No FG TDs in Tipp or Ros/Galway.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on February 10, 2020, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 01:13:13 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 10, 2020, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 10, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Also, which Shinner thought it was a good idea to produce the tricolours and sing 'Come Out Ye Black and Tans'?

What a moron.

On a day when everything they touched turned to gold, this bunch of idiots managed to give the perennial naysayers a penalty kick.

I don't see why it's controversial which is probably why I don't see too many people getting worked up about it. Why would anyone get worked up about it outside of the blueshirts who realise it's a dig at them over the RIC commemoration? Why would any other self respecting Irish citizen be upset/offended by a song celebrating the fight for independence?

It was crass, triumphalist and unnecessary.

I don't think too many were offended.

Couldn't you say that about any song being sung to celebrate an election victory? Yet Pearse Doherty & Padraig McLoughlin in Donegal celebrated by singing 'Óró sé do Bheatha Abhaile'. Haven't seen any criticism what-so-ever of that. Why the difference? Was it purely because Ellis' one was an overt dig at FG over the RIC commemoration?


A little.  The choice of song definitely mattered.  Though if you think I'd be annoyed at someone getting a dig in at FG, you've got the wrong guy.  Dig away, for they deserve it all.

I just thought it was a perfect time to show a bit of maturity and grace.  Waving tricolours and singing that song was something more akin to a Wolfe Tones concert, than a count centre.  I think it may have alienated some of their new cohort of voters right away.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 10, 2020, 06:09:49 PM
I heard a claim made on an rte panel that FF's vote also suffered after their late coordinated attempt to villify SF in the eyes of the voters, that the backfire extended to taking a hit from lower number of preferences from SF voters.

Quite a number of FF candidates were just edged out, so maybe the claim has some veracity.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 06:14:38 PM
Help me out here. Why did SF run so few candidates? With hindsight it looks like the wrong decision with the whopping big surpluses they got, so what would have been the disadvantage of running two candidates? Would it split too many first and second preference votes if there wasn't such a big green wave?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 06:14:38 PM
Help me out here. Why did SF run so few candidates? With hindsight it looks like the wrong decision with the whopping big surpluses they got, so what would have been the disadvantage of running two candidates? Would it split too many first and second preference votes if there wasn't such a big green wave?

Running too many candidates can lose you seats, say you get two candidates on 40% of a quota they could both end up eliminated, whereas one candidate on 80% of the quota would get elected.
SF ran few candidates since their results were crap in the local and European elections earlier in the year. Some of these elected with big votes yesterday did not get elected in the local election, this is coming from a bandwagon voter with little political knowledge or interest who did not bother their ar s e voting.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 10, 2020, 06:30:44 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 06:14:38 PM
Help me out here. Why did SF run so few candidates? With hindsight it looks like the wrong decision with the whopping big surpluses they got, so what would have been the disadvantage of running two candidates? Would it split too many first and second preference votes if there wasn't such a big green wave?

Running too many candidates can lose you seats, say you get two candidates on 40% of a quota they could both end up eliminated, whereas one candidate on 80% of the quota would get elected.
SF ran few candidates since their results were crap in the local and European elections earlier in the year. Some of these elected with big votes yesterday did not get elected in the local election, this is coming from a bandwagon voter with little political knowledge or interest who did not bother their ar s e voting.

In addition: in some areas they ran too many candidates in 2016 and ended up losing seats.  Nominations had to be declared by Jan 22nd. Their surge came very late for them, you could say in the last week and a half. Even the first opinion poll had FF with a huge lead.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Mr Cullinane TD for Waterford allegedly singing "Up the Ra" in some Pub in Waterford.
Why do they continue to use the Tricolour as a weapon and as if the rest of us were Unionists?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cavan19 on February 10, 2020, 06:59:36 PM
Next thing it will be the Palasteine flag they will be raising.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 10, 2020, 07:09:39 PM
It's going to be

SF 37
FF 37
FG 35
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:11:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Mr Cullinane TD for Waterford allegedly singing "Up the Ra" in some Pub in Waterford.
Why do they continue to use the Tricolour as a weapon and as if the rest of us were Unionists?

This shows a profound lack of judgement, apart from anything else.
Singing James Connolly or even Kevin Barry would provide a good night and not bring attention to yourself.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 07:35:09 PM
The Newsletter is literally talking about the weather. The storm has pride of place on their homepage, no mention of the election that I can see. Meanwhile in the Belfast Telegraph, RDE is obeying Godwin's Law by comparing SF's success to the rise of the Nazis (yes, she actually went there) and that this election that SF won fair and square is a "threat to democracy on the island."

Other quotes of note:
"Sinn Fein surge in Irish election a wake-up call for unionism"
Leader

"Faced with the choice between Leo's Tweedledum and Micheal's Tweedledee, who can blame voters for giving Mary Lou McDonald a chance?"
Eilis O'Hanlon

"Sinn Fein has spooked the unionists with election success"
Alex Kane

"Skeletons of past will haunt Sinn Fein until party addresses the pain of victims"
Suzanne Breen

"Mood for change seems so strong that Leo Varadkar may have to dust off his CV"
Tom Kelly

From the Irish News:

"Sinn Féin should be judged on its mandate"
Leader

"A political and electoral revolution is underway"
Jim Gibney

"As election tightens, Sinn Féin's past might make it difficult to attract much needed transfers"
Fionnuala O Connor
(I'm not sure if that's an issue in so many constituencies where SF only ran a single candidate that topped the poll)

"Sinn Fein's surge is the story of the Republic's election, so why aren't we hearing more about it?"
Brian Feeney

"Sinn Féin must address the past with honesty"
Alex Kane
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 07:43:44 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:11:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Mr Cullinane TD for Waterford allegedly singing "Up the Ra" in some Pub in Waterford.
Why do they continue to use the Tricolour as a weapon and as if the rest of us were Unionists?

This shows a profound lack of judgement, apart from anything else.
Singing James Connolly or even Kevin Barry would provide a good night and not bring attention to yourself.

Stupid by cullinane,  I believe it was a speech though not a song which is even worse. There is no need for that sort of shite.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on February 10, 2020, 07:44:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 10, 2020, 07:09:39 PM
It's going to be

SF 37
FF 37
FG 35

Assuming in this case it goes to 1st preference votes to decide who gets the top job?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 07:51:34 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 10, 2020, 07:44:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 10, 2020, 07:09:39 PM
It's going to be

SF 37
FF 37
FG 35

Assuming in this case it goes to 1st preference votes to decide who gets the top job?

Theres no official rules on it, its whoever can get the required numbers pulled together. I'm not sure we've ever seen anything like what's happened today before
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 07:51:50 PM
McGrath of FF on the News saying they'll let Marylou get on with talking to left wingers to try and set up a left wing Government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 10, 2020, 07:54:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 07:51:50 PM
McGrath of FF on the News saying they'll let Marylou get on with talking to left wingers to try and set up a left wing Government.
Yep, even if they end up with the most seats, FF have decided to let SF make the first attempt at forming a government with everyone bar FF FG
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 08:16:22 PM
Quoth The Economist:

QuoteSinn Fein flying
The IRA's former political wing comes top in a general election
It may now be headed for government

IRELAND'S PRIME MINISTER, Leo Varadkar, looks all but certain to lose his job. The left-wing Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the Irish Republican Army (IRA), rode a wave of anti-austerity sentiment to win the most votes in a general election on February 8th.

Sinn Fein's victory ends a century of electoral dominance for Fianna Fail and Mr Varadkar's Fine Gael, two centre-right rivals that have enjoyed a duopoly since the Irish state was founded in 1922. Born out of a civil war between rival factions in the original IRA—Fine Gael's founders reluctantly accepted the temporary partition of Ireland as the price of peace with Britain after the war of independence, while Fianna Fail's founders insisted on a united Ireland—the two parties have these days few if any ideological differences. Their electoral dominance reflected a deeply conservative electorate wary of change. In 1982 they had a combined 84% of the vote. On February 8th, they managed only 43%.

The present incarnation of Sinn Fein stems from a more recent and more bloody civil conflict, the Northern Ireland Troubles, in which it emerged as the political wing of the Provisional IRA. It too has sought to throw off its violent history, and has now succeeded in attracting voters wearied by over a decade of austerity, imposed after Ireland's economic crisis, by three successive governments led by Fianna Fail and Fine Gael.

In a surge which even caught Sinn Fein by surprise, the party won 24.5% of first-preferences under Ireland's single-transferable vote system of proportional representation. That was an impressive increase on its score of 13.8% at the previous election, in 2016. Fianna Fail won 22.2%, while Fine Gael trailed in third with 20.9%. Therefore even if Fine Gael enters a coalition with one of the other two parties, its leader will have no claim on the premiership.

Yet despite Sinn Fein's success, its leader, Mary Lou McDonald, also lacks a clear path to the prime minister's office. Stung by dismal local election results last June, in which its share of the vote slumped to only 9.5% and it lost half its council seats, Sinn Fein ran only 42 candidates for the 160 seats in the Dublin parliament. It is therefore unlikely to end up with the highest seat count, despite winning most first preferences. (With 26 seats still to fill, Sinn Fein had 37 seats to Fine Gael's 29 and Fianna Fail's 27.)

Under Ireland's painstaking system of proportional representation vote-counting is likely to continue in some constituencies for several days. But behind the scenes, the political horse-trading has already begun. Most observers expect a coalition of Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein will form the basis of the next government. A "grand coalition" of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael is also possible, although this would surely anger voters who turned to Sinn Fein to end the old duopoly.

Both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael vowed in the course of the campaign that they would not go into coalition with Sinn Fein, because of its past support for violence in Northern Ireland and what they see as spendthrift promises. But Fianna Fail's leader, Micheal Martin, declined to rule out such an alliance as the scale of the surge emerged over the weekend. "I'm a democrat," he told journalists. "I listen to the people, I respect the decision of the people."

Ms McDonald said at the weekend that her preference would be to form a Sinn Fein-led government in coalition with smaller leftist parties, the Green Party and independents. However, any such alliance would struggle to form a working majority.

The defeated Mr Varadkar had built his re-election campaign on a resurgent economy (GDP grew by around 5% last year) and his tough handling of the Northern Ireland border issue in talks with the European Union and Brexiting Britain. However, 63% of voters surveyed on election day said that they were not experiencing the economic recovery in their own lives. Almost a third said that the most important issue had been health care, while 26% chose housing. The same exit poll showed that 65% wanted to see more money spent on social services.

Sinn Fein appears to have benefited from this surge in social-democratic sentiment, moving into the political space formerly occupied by the Labour Party, which lost much of its support after it entered an austerity coalition with Fine Gael between 2011 and 2016.

Housing and health have become particularly difficult issues for Fine Gael, which has been in power for nine years (Mr Varadkar succeeded Enda Kenny as party leader and prime minister in June 2017). Its housing policies—shared with Fianna Fail, which preceded it in office—are widely blamed for a shortage of homes. Many young people are unable to buy, and private rents are among the highest in the world. Meanwhile, the mixed public-private health system is increasingly perceived to be in crisis. Hundreds of patients have waited on trolleys for admission to emergency rooms. Waiting lists for consultant appointments stretch out for years. Staff morale has plunged.

Whatever the composition of the next government, the election result is a triumph for Ms McDonald, an articulate Dubliner who, like all her front-bench spokespeople, had no involvement in the Troubles and is widely regarded as able on policy matters. Conversely, even if Mr Varadkar tries to cling to the leadership of Fine Gael, as he has vowed to do, he will be seen as weakened by an error-ridden, ill-conceived snap election campaign.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on February 10, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Most in favour of tax cuts

Most in favour of increases in public spending

Venezuela politics
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 10, 2020, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 10, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Most in favour of tax cuts

Most in favour of increases in public spending

Venezuela politics
They must be planting money trees.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 08:54:27 PM
Oh dear, some Democrats not taking democracy so well. Almost DUP like.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 10, 2020, 08:57:17 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 10, 2020, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 10, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Most in favour of tax cuts

Most in favour of increases in public spending

Venezuela politics
They must be planting money trees.

FF money trees?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 10, 2020, 09:04:00 PM
The paye tax
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:11:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Mr Cullinane TD for Waterford allegedly singing "Up the Ra" in some Pub in Waterford.
Why do they continue to use the Tricolour as a weapon and as if the rest of us were Unionists?

This shows a profound lack of judgement, apart from anything else.
Singing James Connolly or even Kevin Barry would provide a good night and not bring attention to yourself.
Do you swallow any old guff Armaghniac and from Rossfan? just how low are your standards? ;D
Cullinane did not burst into song.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:08:13 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 10, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Most in favour of tax cuts

Most in favour of increases in public spending

Venezuela politics

Dunno how anybody can come to that conclusion. The question was an either-or choice between tax cuts and increased spending in the event of a government having a surplus.

The poll result shows a slight majority in favour of the latter among the top three parties, and a significant majority preferring more spending among the Greens and Labour, as you'd expect from left-leaning parties. This fits a pattern in European countries. Venezuela is something of a unique case that has nothing to do with this.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 10, 2020, 09:09:19 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 10, 2020, 02:27:46 PM
Kate O Connell, Regina Doherty, Shane Ross & Ruth Coppinger good riddance. The establishment has got a serious kicking, no harm in the long run. It's a small bit worrying that SF councillors that struggled to make seats in the locals, romped home in the General. Looks like a major protest vote, interesting to see how they perform in real life government.

Zaponne gone too, hopefully back to the US.

Possible re election in 6 to 10 weeks, think it will be difficult to form a stable government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 09:35:19 PM
With 8 seats left to fill looking like FF to finish on 38 and FG 35 or 36.
SF already 37 .
Various left parties/groups likely 18.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 10, 2020, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

COULD, MM might have to eat his words if he doesn't want to be the only FF leader not to be Taoiseach if FF get most seats. Then again there's a large body of FF that don't want the Shinners. Some do however. I can't see Mary-Lou keeping Tweedlewhatever in government if they want radical change.

Rudi probably is correct in that there will be another election sooner than later.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 09:49:42 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 10, 2020, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

COULD, MM might have to eat his words if he doesn't want to be the only FF leader not to be Taoiseach if FF get most seats. Then again there's a large body of FF that don't want the Shinners. Some do however. I can't see Mary-Lou keeping Tweedlewhatever in government if they want radical change.

Rudi probably is correct in that there will be another election sooner than later
.

FF though won't want that so they've a tough choice coming up
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 09:50:46 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Oddly enough, SF and FG are most closely aligned (on that one question)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 10, 2020, 09:55:32 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 09:35:19 PM
With 8 seats left to fill looking like FF to finish on 38 and FG 35 or 36.
SF already 37 .
Various left parties/groups likely 18.
It's not far off a 4 way split
.There should be another vote in 6 months with the Shinners providing enough candidates
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: thebigfella on February 10, 2020, 09:57:15 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 07:35:09 PM
The Newsletter is literally talking about the weather. The storm has pride of place on their homepage, no mention of the election that I can see. Meanwhile in the Belfast Telegraph, RDE is obeying Godwin's Law by comparing SF's success to the rise of the Nazis (yes, she actually went there) and that this election that SF won fair and square is a "threat to democracy on the island."

Other quotes of note:
"Sinn Fein surge in Irish election a wake-up call for unionism"
Leader

"Faced with the choice between Leo's Tweedledum and Micheal's Tweedledee, who can blame voters for giving Mary Lou McDonald a chance?"
Eilis O'Hanlon

"Sinn Fein has spooked the unionists with election success"
Alex Kane

"Skeletons of past will haunt Sinn Fein until party addresses the pain of victims"
Suzanne Breen

"Mood for change seems so strong that Leo Varadkar may have to dust off his CV"
Tom Kelly

From the Irish News:

"Sinn Féin should be judged on its mandate"
Leader

"A political and electoral revolution is underway"
Jim Gibney

"As election tightens, Sinn Féin's past might make it difficult to attract much needed transfers"
Fionnuala O Connor
(I'm not sure if that's an issue in so many constituencies where SF only ran a single candidate that topped the poll)

"Sinn Fein's surge is the story of the Republic's election, so why aren't we hearing more about it?"
Brian Feeney

"Sinn Féin must address the past with honesty"
Alex Kane

You should look up Godwin's law.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: HiMucker on February 10, 2020, 09:58:18 PM
I think the big 3 parties are all that closely aligned on that particular question, that I find it bizarre posters making inferences about SF on it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on February 10, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
19 Independents elected so far.  Is that not a bit of a cop out, for the most part just electing someone who'll get you a wee motorway or a new school in your backyard.  Democratic it solves little or nothing for the country.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Armagh18 on February 10, 2020, 10:39:10 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:11:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Mr Cullinane TD for Waterford allegedly singing "Up the Ra" in some Pub in Waterford.
Why do they continue to use the Tricolour as a weapon and as if the rest of us were Unionists?

This shows a profound lack of judgement, apart from anything else.
Singing James Connolly or even Kevin Barry would provide a good night and not bring attention to yourself.
Yeah because as has been proven, the good "old IRA" never killed anyone....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cavan19 on February 10, 2020, 10:47:34 PM
"Up the Ra" hopefully he will be the new minister for justice.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 10, 2020, 10:55:18 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on February 10, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
19 Independents elected so far.  Is that not a bit of a cop out, for the most part just electing someone who'll get you a wee motorway or a new school in your backyard.  Democratic it solves little or nothing for the country.

I agree, if there were 160 independent TDs in the Dáil, nothing would get done.

A lot are gombeens but Fitzmaurice and Harkin are v good imo
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 11:03:12 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on February 10, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
19 Independents elected so far.  Is that not a bit of a cop out, for the most part just electing someone who'll get you a wee motorway or a new school in your backyard.  Democratic it solves little or nothing for the country.

It's a problem all right. Some people blame the STV system for the Parish Pump Politics problem, but I think it's down to power being too centralised. More power to local councils and you'd see local people getting stuff done at local level without distracting the Dáil with their petty requests.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 11:10:44 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 11:03:12 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on February 10, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
19 Independents elected so far.  Is that not a bit of a cop out, for the most part just electing someone who'll get you a wee motorway or a new school in your backyard.  Democratic it solves little or nothing for the country.

It's a problem all right. Some people blame the STV system for the Parish Pump Politics problem, but I think it's down to power being too centralised. More power to local councils and you'd see local people getting stuff done at local level without distracting the Dáil with their petty requests.

Quite a few are ex members of a bigger party that fell out for one reason or another but had done work in their area so people stayed with them. There are very few "single issue" independents today like there were before.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dec on February 10, 2020, 11:17:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 11:10:44 PM

but had done work in their area so people stayed with them.


That's the problem. Any system that relies on an individual elected official to use there influence to get something for their area is a terrible system.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 11:38:32 PM
He fixshed de road!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2020, 11:41:31 PM
The pesky people are allowed to vote for whoever they want for whatever reasons they want......The Bastards ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 11:47:32 PM
I'd be surprised if there were another election soon. In theory SF would clean up by fielding more candidates, but in practice it could piss off the voters and hurt the shinners more. They play a long game and they can wait a bit longer for the top job.

I'd say we could be looking at an FF/SF/Green coalition with MM as Taoiseach, MLMcD as Tanaiste, Pearse Doherty somewhere high in the cabinet, maybe as high as Finance Minister, with the greens in some environmentally important portfolio like transport. FF and SF aren't that far apart on the northern question, so it might work for a while at least. Maybe some PBP or SD types in the mix to make the numbers up and give it a good solid majority. Wouldn't be the worst government, although I don't think rainbow coalitions are terribly stable. SF could give it a year or two, find FF up to no good with some brown envelope payment, then pull out of government while still on the moral high ground, and go to the country this time with a decent number of candidates, and this time top the poll with enough seats to form a coalition with someone other than FF/FG.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: J70 on February 11, 2020, 12:33:11 AM
Thomas Pringle back in. 8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2020, 05:58:05 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.

Indeed, which is why they can play hardball with FF in the negotiations. A second election suits SF just fine, FF not so much. Mary Lou can demand the Taoiseach's job and MM would be under pressure to let her have it, or face going to the country again and seeing SF pick up maybe 50 odd seats and shutting FF out with a coalition of the left.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 07:16:27 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2020, 05:58:05 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.

Indeed, which is why they can play hardball with FF in the negotiations. A second election suits SF just fine, FF not so much. Mary Lou can demand the Taoiseach's job and MM would be under pressure to let her have it, or face going to the country again and seeing SF pick up maybe 50 odd seats and shutting FF out with a coalition of the left.
Even if FF go into coalition the policies will have to be more left wing.
I wonder what SF's position on the Apple tax might be. €13bn would go a long way towards fixing homelessness and health.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on February 11, 2020, 07:33:20 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 11:38:32 PM
He fixshed de road!

He buried your grandfather
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 11, 2020, 07:50:47 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 07:16:27 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2020, 05:58:05 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.

Indeed, which is why they can play hardball with FF in the negotiations. A second election suits SF just fine, FF not so much. Mary Lou can demand the Taoiseach's job and MM would be under pressure to let her have it, or face going to the country again and seeing SF pick up maybe 50 odd seats and shutting FF out with a coalition of the left.
Even if FF go into coalition the policies will have to be more left wing.
I wonder what SF's position on the Apple tax might be. €13bn would go a long way towards fixing homelessness and health.

Sure wasnt Bertie a socialist, it shouldnt be that hard
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 07:57:33 AM
The government's position on the €13 billion is somewhat irrelevant.

It's gone to appeal either way. Apple's team are leading their defence. If the government change sides it won't make one iota of a difference to the ultimate outcome of the case. They're pretending they are hoping Apple wins, while in reality I would say they wouldn't mind if they lose! But it does have to be remembered that Apple provide a huge benefit to the economy, particularly in Cork, so there's no point damning them in public, let the court system play out. The EU will not give Apple any easy win.

Again, the reporting on this case hasn't allowed for people to understand it.
Apple's tax ruling they received in 1980 wasn't actually disputed by the EU. The ruling said that 90% of the profits of their Bermudan resident company belonged to Bermuda and 10% belonged to the Bermudan's Irish branch. (Can't remember the exact %, but it was something like that).

The problem for Apple is it seems they didn't do what they said they'd do in the manner they said they would. And the problem for the government is that Revenue didn't audit Apple to ensure they were doing what they said they were doing. Revenue in the 80s was very poorly run, but made slow and steady progress since around the mid 90s and now it's the best run government agency.

The Commission's report that 0% of the profits belonged to Bermuda and 100% to Ireland was very persuading (I was full sure beforehand that Apple would win, other than the % split might change to maybe 80/20 or even 70/30, but certainly not 0/100! - but I hadn't realised the mistakes Apple made) but Apple disagree and the Commission's report is by its nature a bit one-sided. So it will be interesting to see how it goes - but there's nothing to be gained by the government publicly switching sides.

And of course it we do win, many countries in the EU and also the US will demand a big chunk. The EU countries have actually very little basis for claiming anything - they've already got their share and audited Apple for the relevant years. But they are generally extremely aggressive so technical right/wrong won't matter to them. The US would have a claim for the majority of it, but they won't want to hang Apple out to dry any further and would likely do something behind the scenes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 08:04:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.

It looks like they'd get 7-8 seats more right now but you'd never know how a campaign would work out, the 15%(?) in the local / European elections shouldn't be forgotten
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 08:06:31 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on February 10, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
19 Independents elected so far.  Is that not a bit of a cop out, for the most part just electing someone who'll get you a wee motorway or a new school in your backyard.  Democratic it solves little or nothing for the country.

I completely agree. Fine voting for an Independent in a local election where they can do something or an EU election where they can do as little as anyone else. But IMO it's a shitehawk decision to vote for someone who thinks their way is the only way and there's not single grouping or party out there they're prepared to join with.

Anyone see a list of the 19 independents anywhere with their affiliation or previous affiliation?
SF need all the smaller parties and 12 independents to get 80 seats. Give Ceann Comhairle to FG or FF and they've a majority. Not sure if there's any chance of that but would be interesting to see the list. It's some opportunity, but you'd have to doubt whether they can make it happen.

If Mary Lou can't make that happen then it'll have to be a FF-SF-Green coalition. Or another election!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 08:19:20 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 10, 2020, 11:10:44 PM
Quite a few are ex members of a bigger party that fell out for one reason or another but had done work in their area so people stayed with them. There are very few "single issue" independents today like there were before.
That seems bang on itchy.

The Verona Murphy example is a gas one. I heard her a good few times talking about Brexit on Eamon Dunphy's podcast, and she seemed competent, intelligent, etc.

So she joins FG and wants to be a TD. Then she said what she said, did badly in the by-election and got kicked out by FG. (Dunphy interestingly seems to have dumped her too).

So she runs as an Independent. Gets elected. And in her celebratory interview afterwards, she claims she got voted in because "the people wanted change"!

I don't know whether it was FGers who voted for her despite her being kicked out, or (more likely) it was part of the anyone but FF / FG brigade, but either way you'd have to question their choice, and possibly their sanity  ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 08:48:10 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 11:47:32 PM
I'd be surprised if there were another election soon. In theory SF would clean up by fielding more candidates, but in practice it could piss off the voters and hurt the shinners more. They play a long game and they can wait a bit longer for the top job.

I'd say we could be looking at an FF/SF/Green coalition with MM as Taoiseach, MLMcD as Tanaiste, Pearse Doherty somewhere high in the cabinet, maybe as high as Finance Minister, with the greens in some environmentally important portfolio like transport. FF and SF aren't that far apart on the northern question, so it might work for a while at least. Maybe some PBP or SD types in the mix to make the numbers up and give it a good solid majority. Wouldn't be the worst government, although I don't think rainbow coalitions are terribly stable. SF could give it a year or two, find FF up to no good with some brown envelope payment, then pull out of government while still on the moral high ground, and go to the country this time with a decent number of candidates, and this time top the poll with enough seats to form a coalition with someone other than FF/FG.

Whatever about FF's stance Michael Martin is die hard partitionist.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 08:54:35 AM
Sinn Féin 37, The rest 123.
Most of the Independents are Centre rightish.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 09:29:17 AM
Effectively 21 independents. This is them. SF need 14, assuming they can reach agreement with the other small parties (which is a big assumption given the history of left parties disagreeing with each other, but they've never had as big an opportunity)

About 10 of these are left or leftish, if the information below is correct, and a few more in the centre. So technically it's not without hope, but practically each one will want his/her pound of flesh, so you wouldn't bet on agreement:

Clare - Michael McNamara (former Labour, left)
Cork South-West - Michael Collins (Ind - seems to be right wing)
Donegal - Thomas Pringle (ex-SF - left)
Dublin South-Central - Joan Collins (Independents 4 Change - left)
Galway East - Sean Canney (Ind – centre?)
Galway West - Noel Grealish (ex-PD, right)
Galway West - Catherine Connolly (ex Labour, left)
Kerry - Michael Healy-Rae (right)
Kerry - Danny Healy Rae (right)
Kildare South - Cathal Berry (Ind, open to talking to SF, so left)
Laois-Offaly - Carol Nolan (recently resigned from SF due to abortion policy)
Limerick County - Richard Ó'Donoghue (ex FF)
Louth - Peter Fitzpatrick (ex FG, resigned due to abortion policy)
Meath West  - Peadar Tóibín (Aontú, recently resigned from SF due to abortion policy)
Roscommon-Galway - Michael Fitzmaurice (Ind, endorsed by Luke Ming, pro farmer, not keen on the Greens policies)
Roscommon-Galway - Denis Naughten (ex FG, right)
Sligo-Leitrim - Marian Harkin (Ind – leans left)
Tipperary - Michael Lowry (ex FG, right)
Tipperary - Mattie McGrath (ex FF, pro life, left FF after losing whip for voting against the ban on stag hunting)
Waterford - Matt Shanahan (Ind – seems to lean left)
Wexford - Verona Murphy (ex FG, right)

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cavan19 on February 11, 2020, 09:31:31 AM
SF will not be able to deliver what they promised and they never expected to do this well.  There whole manifesto was written to be able to snipe from the trenches for 5 years or whatever term the next government was going to be in place.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 11, 2020, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 10, 2020, 10:47:34 PM
"Up the Ra" hopefully he will be the new minister for justice.

What, are you annoyed that he didn't belt out "Come out ye Black 'n' Tans" as you like to sing about the green and lovely lanes of Killeshandra?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 09:37:51 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 08:04:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.

It looks like they'd get 7-8 seats more right now but you'd never know how a campaign would work out, the 15%(?) in the local / European elections shouldn't be forgotten

In other countries Euro elections are a chance for voters to let off some steam and not as serious as general elections.

The system seems to be in transition. The number of independents is a sign of a breakdown in discipline in FF and FG.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cavan19 on February 11, 2020, 09:38:31 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 11, 2020, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on February 10, 2020, 10:47:34 PM
"Up the Ra" hopefully he will be the new minister for justice.

What, are you annoyed that he didn't belt out "Come out ye Black 'n' Tans" as you like to sing about the green and lovely lanes of Killeshandra?

Annoyed?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 09:54:58 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 09:29:17 AM
Effectively 21 independents. This is them. SF need 14, assuming they can reach agreement with the other small parties (which is a big assumption given the history of left parties disagreeing with each other, but they've never had as big an opportunity)

About 10 of these are left or leftish, if the information below is correct, and a few more in the centre. So technically it's not without hope, but practically each one will want his/her pound of flesh, so you wouldn't bet on agreement:

Clare - Michael McNamara (former Labour, left)
Cork South-West - Michael Collins (Ind - seems to be right wing)
Donegal - Thomas Pringle (ex-SF - left)
Dublin South-Central - Joan Collins (Independents 4 Change - left)
Galway East - Sean Canney (Ind – centre?)
Galway West - Noel Grealish (ex-PD, right)
Galway West - Catherine Connolly (ex Labour, left)
Kerry - Michael Healy-Rae (right)
Kerry - Danny Healy Rae (right)
Kildare South - Cathal Berry (Ind, open to talking to SF, so left)
Laois-Offaly - Carol Nolan (recently resigned from SF due to abortion policy)
Limerick County - Richard Ó'Donoghue (ex FF)
Louth - Peter Fitzpatrick (ex FG, resigned due to abortion policy)
Meath West  - Peadar Tóibín (Aontú, recently resigned from SF due to abortion policy)
Roscommon-Galway - Michael Fitzmaurice (Ind, endorsed by Luke Ming, pro farmer, not keen on the Greens policies)
Roscommon-Galway - Denis Naughten (ex FG, right)
Sligo-Leitrim - Marian Harkin (Ind – leans left)
Tipperary - Michael Lowry (ex FG, right)
Tipperary - Mattie McGrath (ex FF, pro life, left FF after losing whip for voting against the ban on stag hunting)
Waterford - Matt Shanahan (Ind – seems to lean left)
Wexford - Verona Murphy (ex FG, right)

A lot of those independents would change their left/right leanings if there was something on the table
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 11, 2020, 10:06:24 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 09:37:51 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 08:04:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.

It looks like they'd get 7-8 seats more right now but you'd never know how a campaign would work out, the 15%(?) in the local / European elections shouldn't be forgotten

In other countries Euro elections are a chance for voters to let off some steam and not as serious as general elections.

The system seems to be in transition. The number of independents is a sign of a breakdown in discipline in FF and FG.

It's a sign that people want change, Seaf. But, like Brexit, it seems a lot of the people don't really know what they want and just latched onto a meaningless slogan. Now, like the British people, I fear we're shortly to feel the cold winds of being snubbed and not being at the centre of things when important discussions soon begin in Brussels and elsewhere.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 11, 2020, 10:30:00 AM
SF have probably found that they done 'too well' in this election with the onus on them now forming part of the next government. The attempts at a left wing coalition of chaos will end up a blind alley as it is simply posturing due to the numbers. I expect that after some weeks of wrangling and manoeuvring that a FF/SF/Green coalition will eventually emerge as the country cannot continue in limbo ad infinitum. Looking at the numbers it is the most obvious coalition. All sides will eventually have to concede that they have to put country before party. At the moment the opposite is happening as all sides are looking after the party first and foremost.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 11, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 11, 2020, 12:33:11 AM
Thomas Pringle back in. 8)

Why, what has he done, shout his mouth off from the back benches, like a typical lefty. Remind you of someone?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on February 11, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
As a Nordie I am equally as embarrassed and annoyed by Cullinane's antics as by Andersons. Not as annoyed as Mary Lou though I'd say. Also Elisha McCallion obviously as no sense of the enormity of her rejection in Derry given her tweeting.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 10:55:34 AM
Quote from: mouview on February 11, 2020, 10:06:24 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 09:37:51 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 08:04:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 10, 2020, 09:26:49 PM
Could there be an SF/FF/Green coalition on the cards? I don't see how the numbers can add up for a leftish coalition that excludes FF or FG.

SF would probably get more seats in a second election because they didn't manage their vote well this time.

It is high politics.

It looks like they'd get 7-8 seats more right now but you'd never know how a campaign would work out, the 15%(?) in the local / European elections shouldn't be forgotten

In other countries Euro elections are a chance for voters to let off some steam and not as serious as general elections.

The system seems to be in transition. The number of independents is a sign of a breakdown in discipline in FF and FG.

It's a sign that people want change, Seaf. But, like Brexit, it seems a lot of the people don't really know what they want and just latched onto a meaningless slogan. Now, like the British people, I fear we're shortly to feel the cold winds of being snubbed and not being at the centre of things when important discussions soon begin in Brussels and elsewhere.

Senior hurling

https://monthlyreview.org/2011/03/01/structural-crisis-in-the-world-system/

People feel something is wrong but can't express it well. They may feel.more comfortable voting for an independent.

Politicians struggle Journalists are lost.
Compare Friday's Indo to today's.

There won'y be meaningful change until we get a new system


« No matter how well written or delivered, a speech cannot divert whole societies from a well established course of action. Policies in motion tend to stay in motion ; to change the trajectory of a deeply embedded set of initiatives requires the application of political forces of equal motion »

Steve Walt 

Thst is also a great hurling quote -eg the 2012 all Ireland final
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 11, 2020, 11:22:42 AM
The result is interesting but it's going to make the next few weeks interesting. My read on the largest 3 parties positions:

FF:

Public position: It's up to SF....people voted for change...we need a rethink...
Privately: Desperate for power....well, Micheál Martin anyway. I think though that his leadership is under question and an agreement with SF might test it to the limit. Confidence and supply - not an option. Very shaky ground.
Appetite for another election: Low.

SF:

Public position: Want to lead a left wing government. No FF or FG please.
Private position: will try and work something with the left wing groups and independents but aware it mightn't be possible to put a stable government together. Go for a minority/small majority with a lot of stress and potentially short term or go in with FF and Greens for longer term stability and chance to implement policies. Both carry risks. Try to keep both options open as long as possible and be ready to play the - "the establishment wouldn't let us into power" card.
Appetite for another election: Prefer not but in the right circumstances....

FG:

Public position: After all we did for ye, this is the thanks we get. We're taking our ball home....
Private position: After all we did for ye, this is the thanks we get. We're taking our ball home....
Appetite for another election: Screw you guys. We have to get rid of Leo first.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 11:24:55 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 09:54:58 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 09:29:17 AM
Effectively 21 independents. This is them. SF need 14, assuming they can reach agreement with the other small parties (which is a big assumption given the history of left parties disagreeing with each other, but they've never had as big an opportunity)

About 10 of these are left or leftish, if the information below is correct, and a few more in the centre. So technically it's not without hope, but practically each one will want his/her pound of flesh, so you wouldn't bet on agreement:

Clare - Michael McNamara (former Labour, left)
Cork South-West - Michael Collins (Ind - seems to be right wing)
Donegal - Thomas Pringle (ex-SF - left)
Dublin South-Central - Joan Collins (Independents 4 Change - left)
Galway East - Sean Canney (Ind – centre?)
Galway West - Noel Grealish (ex-PD, right)
Galway West - Catherine Connolly (ex Labour, left)
Kerry - Michael Healy-Rae (right)
Kerry - Danny Healy Rae (right)
Kildare South - Cathal Berry (Ind, open to talking to SF, so left)
Laois-Offaly - Carol Nolan (recently resigned from SF due to abortion policy)
Limerick County - Richard Ó'Donoghue (ex FF)
Louth - Peter Fitzpatrick (ex FG, resigned due to abortion policy)
Meath West  - Peadar Tóibín (Aontú, recently resigned from SF due to abortion policy)
Roscommon-Galway - Michael Fitzmaurice (Ind, endorsed by Luke Ming, pro farmer, not keen on the Greens policies)
Roscommon-Galway - Denis Naughten (ex FG, right)
Sligo-Leitrim - Marian Harkin (Ind – leans left)
Tipperary - Michael Lowry (ex FG, right)
Tipperary - Mattie McGrath (ex FF, pro life, left FF after losing whip for voting against the ban on stag hunting)
Waterford - Matt Shanahan (Ind – seems to lean left)
Wexford - Verona Murphy (ex FG, right)

A lot of those independents would change their left/right leanings if there was something on the table
For sure!

"We're goina need a bigger table!"

I'd say the list of demands from the 21 would make for interesting reading  :D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 11, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
As a Nordie I am equally as embarrassed and annoyed by Cullinane's antics as by Andersons. Not as annoyed as Mary Lou though I'd say.
I'd say some of the 24% who gave SF no.1s are overboard already as a result.
Some FFrs canvassing in Westmeath were told at a few houses "No, we're  voting for the Sinn Féin man".
Sorcha Clarke was HER name ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 11, 2020, 12:29:46 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

This is why representative democracy is a load of bullshít.

There is nothing to stop questions like that (and more relevant ones) going on a separate ballot aside from the main election.

Then the incoming parties know exactly what the people want.


Representative democracy - pick out 2 or 3 lies from our list of lies that you like - ignoring the rest of our lies that you don't like - and we'll promise to do our very best to do fúck all about delivering these lies. Then "vote for change" in 4 years time to bring back the crowd that shafted you 8 years ago.


It ain't the fúcking (communications) stone age any more - so why are we persisting with a method of government that was invented before the telegram?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on February 11, 2020, 12:36:03 PM
Would sinn fein have a strong hand in dealing with a lot of the independents and smaller parties? Do a deal with us or face a re-election, we will stand more candidates, absorb the cost of another campaign and risk losing your seat after 6 months.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on February 11, 2020, 12:36:48 PM
A lot of them got elected on the back of sf surpluses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on February 11, 2020, 12:43:12 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 11, 2020, 12:36:03 PM
Would sinn fein have a strong hand in dealing with a lot of the independents and smaller parties? Do a deal with us or face a re-election, we will stand more candidates, absorb the cost of another campaign and risk losing your seat after 6 months.

I think that's what is likely to happen. Forming a left coalition is going to be difficult. Would they go down the SF/FF/Green route? Who knows. It definitely would favour SF to go again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 11, 2020, 12:36:03 PM
Would sinn fein have a strong hand in dealing with a lot of the independents and smaller parties? Do a deal with us or face a re-election, we will stand more candidates, absorb the cost of another campaign and risk losing your seat after 6 months.

They might but surely they'd know that said independents would sink them at the first available opportunity
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 12:58:31 PM
Threats wont work with Independents.
Bribes...I mean investments for their Constituencies......now yer talkin ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: J70 on February 11, 2020, 01:10:30 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 11, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 11, 2020, 12:33:11 AM
Thomas Pringle back in. 8)

Why, what has he done, shout his mouth off from the back benches, like a typical lefty. Remind you of someone?

Who is he supposed to remind me of?

And nothing wrong with the odd fly in the ointment raising concerns on behalf of the less fortunate.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
I don't think Michael Martin will risk dividing the party over a decision to enter a coalition with Sinn Fein.
Even if he stood down I doubt that another party leader could effect close to a consensus on the issue.

Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:16:46 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
It is a very interesting response.

The Green and Labour responses are exactly as you'd expect.

The FF and FG responses are pretty much what you'd expect.

But SF is completely out of kilter for an election 'won' on the basis on health and housing. 43% of SF voters would prefer less tax than spending more on health or housing.  Interesting mindset to try and decipher.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 01:19:20 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:16:46 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
It is a very interesting response.

The Green and Labour responses are exactly as you'd expect.

The FF and FG responses are pretty much what you'd expect.

But SF is completely out of kilter for an election 'won' on the basis on health and housing. 43% of SF voters would prefer less tax than spending more on health or housing.  Interesting mindset to try and decipher.

What's the sample size?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:16:46 PM
But SF is completely out of kilter for an election 'won' on the basis on health and housing. 43% of SF voters would prefer less tax than spending more on health or housing.  Interesting mindset to try and decipher.

There is more than one mindset there when you sweep the boards in a general election. SF benefitted from disillusionment on all sides. Most people are happy to see higher taxes once they're not the ones paying.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 01:19:20 PM
What's the sample size?

5,000 I think which makes it bigger and in theory more reliable than normal polls. The usual caveats about bias etc apply.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 11, 2020, 01:27:44 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
I don't think Michael Martin will risk dividing the party over a decision to enter a coalition with Sinn Fein.
Even if he stood down I doubt that another party leader could effect close to a consensus on the issue.

Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.

Obvious as it looks I think they won't do that.  Making the Shinners leaders of opposition will help them grow even more support.   Clipping away at the sidelines, getting the airtime that leader of opposition gets.

I think FF/FG would rather not face that.

/Jim.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 11, 2020, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 01:19:20 PM
What's the sample size?

5,000 I think which makes it bigger and in theory more reliable than normal polls. The usual caveats about bias etc apply.

The polls have been largely consistent with the results in this election so I have no doubt as to the accuracy of this one either. If SF actually implemented the policies in it's manifesto I think they would lose a lot of those new voters.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.

While personally I'm dead against SF being in government, you have to respect the will of the electorate in a general election. SF forming part of the next government is clearly the will of the people.

Negotiations won't be easy, but the ball is firmly in SF's court and they've two channels for getting into government. Rainbow left or the more realistic combination with FF and Green. There's no excuse not to get it done. They're politicians, it's their job to work it out.

If they don't get it done and go back to the electorate with the message - Sorry lads, we didn't run enough candidates. Let's do it all again so we can aim for 50 seats. That'd be a gamble. Could work. Could backfire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 11, 2020, 01:30:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
I don't think Michael Martin will risk dividing the party over a decision to enter a coalition with Sinn Fein.
Even if he stood down I doubt that another party leader could effect close to a consensus on the issue.

Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.

I think FG would rather take their chances on another election than do that. They ran a horrid bad election campaign (possibly the worst in history) and even improving a couple of percentage points could also make them the largest party in a new election. If FF/SF/Greens cannot cobble together a government, we are facing a re-run in April/May (assuming two months of everyone "trying" to form a gov). It could come down who sickens the electorate the most during that period. Any kind of FF/FG coalition would also sicken the electorate who voted "change", and would only privately please the left because it would finally mean either one of those parties gets wiped out, or they merge and we are back to a big two again, with Sinn Fein owning left, what's left of FF/FG owning center right.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on February 11, 2020, 01:33:43 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 11, 2020, 01:10:30 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 11, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 11, 2020, 12:33:11 AM
Thomas Pringle back in. 8)

Why, what has he done, shout his mouth off from the back benches, like a typical lefty. Remind you of someone?

Who is he supposed to remind me of?

And nothing wrong with the odd fly in the ointment raising concerns on behalf of the less fortunate.

He reminds me of you. He wants an increase in welfare and social housing in Donegal, for people who have no interest in working. The working and middle classes have to pay for all this, bit of a balls when the working class & middle class are struggling, with paying mortgages, childcare, food etc.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:33:51 PM
Quote from: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:16:46 PM
But SF is completely out of kilter for an election 'won' on the basis on health and housing. 43% of SF voters would prefer less tax than spending more on health or housing.  Interesting mindset to try and decipher.

There is more than one mindset there when you sweep the boards in a general election. SF benefitted from disillusionment on all sides. Most people are happy to see higher taxes once they're not the ones paying.
Yep. SF knew they wouldn't go wrong with that message.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 11, 2020, 01:34:14 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.

While personally I'm dead against SF being in government, you have to respect the will of the electorate in a general election. SF forming part of the next government is clearly the will of the people.

Negotiations won't be easy, but the ball is firmly in SF's court and they've two channels for getting into government. Rainbow left or the more realistic combination with FF and Green. There's no excuse not to get it done. They're politicians, it's their job to work it out.

If they don't get it done and go back to the electorate with the message - Sorry lads, we didn't run enough candidates. Let's do it all again so we can aim for 50 seats. That'd be a gamble. Could work. Could backfire.

There's a lot of thinking that that's how it would work out. But it's like a football team depending on the gaelforce wind in the second half (like Clare in the Hyde on Sunday), you still have to play some football too.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
While personally I'm dead against SF being in government, you have to respect the will of the electorate in a general election. SF forming part of the next government is clearly the will of the people.

Negotiations won't be easy, but the ball is firmly in SF's court and they've two channels for getting into government. Rainbow left or the more realistic combination with FF and Green. There's no excuse not to get it done. They're politicians, it's their job to work it out.
Agree 100%
Quote
If they don't get it done and go back to the electorate with the message - Sorry lads, we didn't run enough candidates. Let's do it all again so we can aim for 50 seats. That'd be a gamble. Could work. Could backfire.
I think it would backfire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 11, 2020, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 11, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
As a Nordie I am equally as embarrassed and annoyed by Cullinane's antics as by Andersons. Not as annoyed as Mary Lou though I'd say.
I'd say some of the 24% who gave SF no.1s are overboard already as a result.
Some FFrs canvassing in Westmeath were told at a few houses "No, we're  voting for the Sinn Féin man".
Sorcha Clarke was HER name ;D

If you think that then you really are naive, the electorate had 2 full weeks of an all out attack form RTE, Indo etc on Sinn Fein and 25% of them said that they dont give a shite about that. I doubt that 25% or any amount of them are now saying oh God I wish I hadnt voted for them as one of them said "up the Ra". It was a stupid thing to say but it will make zero difference.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 11, 2020, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
While personally I'm dead against SF being in government, you have to respect the will of the electorate in a general election. SF forming part of the next government is clearly the will of the people.

Negotiations won't be easy, but the ball is firmly in SF's court and they've two channels for getting into government. Rainbow left or the more realistic combination with FF and Green. There's no excuse not to get it done. They're politicians, it's their job to work it out.
Agree 100%
Quote
If they don't get it done and go back to the electorate with the message - Sorry lads, we didn't run enough candidates. Let's do it all again so we can aim for 50 seats. That'd be a gamble. Could work. Could backfire.
I think it would backfire.

Or if they tried to form a government, FF and FG refused to respect the 25% of votes they got and SF went back and said due to FF/FG insulting the electorate we need a bigger majority now, I think they would get it. No one is running back to FF and FG in the short term. What evidence is there that suggests otherwise?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ballinaman on February 11, 2020, 01:47:30 PM
David McWilliams podcast on the election result a balanced analysis in my opinion . Worth a listen even if ya can't stand the ballix
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:52:18 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 11, 2020, 01:27:44 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
I don't think Michael Martin will risk dividing the party over a decision to enter a coalition with Sinn Fein.
Even if he stood down I doubt that another party leader could effect close to a consensus on the issue.

Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.

Obvious as it looks I think they won't do that.  Making the Shinners leaders of opposition will help them grow even more support.   Clipping away at the sidelines, getting the airtime that leader of opposition gets.

I think FF/FG would rather not face that.

/Jim.
Practically speaking there is no way a coalition with a working majority can be formed without FG or FF participation.
A minority coalition will not function with FF and FG in opposition.
FG emphatically will not join with SF.
FF are split.
What can FF and FG do to avoid SF from making hay in opposition, becoming the voice of a larger % of the dissafected?




Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 11, 2020, 02:00:13 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 11, 2020, 01:47:30 PM
David McWilliams podcast on the election result a balanced analysis in my opinion . Worth a listen even if ya can't stand the ballix

Can you post a link?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 11, 2020, 02:03:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 11, 2020, 01:43:07 PM
Or if they tried to form a government, FF and FG refused to respect the 25% of votes they got and SF went back and said due to FF/FG insulting the electorate we need a bigger majority now, I think they would get it. No one is running back to FF and FG in the short term. What evidence is there that suggests otherwise?

It depends how it all plays out. There's no evidence for anything here, by the way. We're in the realm of supposition and the only precedents are the Labour bubbles of 1992 and 2011, when on both occasions they concluded that they'd suffer if they caused a fresh election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: J70 on February 11, 2020, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 11, 2020, 01:33:43 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 11, 2020, 01:10:30 PM
Quote from: Rudi on February 11, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Quote from: J70 on February 11, 2020, 12:33:11 AM
Thomas Pringle back in. 8)

Why, what has he done, shout his mouth off from the back benches, like a typical lefty. Remind you of someone?

Who is he supposed to remind me of?

And nothing wrong with the odd fly in the ointment raising concerns on behalf of the less fortunate.

He reminds me of you. He wants an increase in welfare and social housing in Donegal, for people who have no interest in working. The working and middle classes have to pay for all this, bit of a balls when the working class & middle class are struggling, with paying mortgages, childcare, food etc.

How silly of me.

I must have forgotten all those posts and discussions where I was advocating for an increase in dole and social housing for those "who have no interest in working".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on February 11, 2020, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 11, 2020, 01:47:30 PM
David McWilliams podcast on the election result a balanced analysis in my opinion . Worth a listen even if ya can't stand the ballix

The bit about there being more foreign nationals than unionists on the island of Ireland. Eye opener.
Really puts unionism into perspective.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 02:26:41 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 11, 2020, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
While personally I'm dead against SF being in government, you have to respect the will of the electorate in a general election. SF forming part of the next government is clearly the will of the people.

Negotiations won't be easy, but the ball is firmly in SF's court and they've two channels for getting into government. Rainbow left or the more realistic combination with FF and Green. There's no excuse not to get it done. They're politicians, it's their job to work it out.
Agree 100%
Quote
If they don't get it done and go back to the electorate with the message - Sorry lads, we didn't run enough candidates. Let's do it all again so we can aim for 50 seats. That'd be a gamble. Could work. Could backfire.
I think it would backfire.

Or if they tried to form a government, FF and FG refused to respect the 25% of votes they got and SF went back and said due to FF/FG insulting the electorate we need a bigger majority now, I think they would get it. No one is running back to FF and FG in the short term. What evidence is there that suggests otherwise?
There's a Hobson's choice of sorts being put to Sinn Fein, a challenge to form a working coalition and if SF can't form one, it's their fault for not being able to attract TDs/political parties who refuse to work with them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 11, 2020, 02:34:14 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 02:26:41 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 11, 2020, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: five points on February 11, 2020, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 11, 2020, 01:29:24 PM
While personally I'm dead against SF being in government, you have to respect the will of the electorate in a general election. SF forming part of the next government is clearly the will of the people.

Negotiations won't be easy, but the ball is firmly in SF's court and they've two channels for getting into government. Rainbow left or the more realistic combination with FF and Green. There's no excuse not to get it done. They're politicians, it's their job to work it out.
Agree 100%
Quote
If they don't get it done and go back to the electorate with the message - Sorry lads, we didn't run enough candidates. Let's do it all again so we can aim for 50 seats. That'd be a gamble. Could work. Could backfire.
I think it would backfire.

Or if they tried to form a government, FF and FG refused to respect the 25% of votes they got and SF went back and said due to FF/FG insulting the electorate we need a bigger majority now, I think they would get it. No one is running back to FF and FG in the short term. What evidence is there that suggests otherwise?
There's a Hobson's choice of sorts being put to Sinn Fein, a challenge to form a working coalition and if SF can't form one, it's their fault for not being able to attract TDs/political parties who refuse to work with them.

And it's a fair challenge. If Mary Lou is going to convince Europe and UK to pay for a United Ireland, for Boris to agree to a border poll, the Unionists to be happy in a United Ireland, for a 100,000 new homes at 65k each, fix health, get rid of property tax, get rid of USC, make multinationals and wealthy pay more tax- then convincing a bunch of overpaid civil servants with big pensions to keep a government in place for a few years should actually be the easiest of those challenges.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 11, 2020, 02:38:37 PM
There is absolutely no way SF will be able to form a government that leans left and lasts any time in the current world economic climate.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 02:39:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:52:18 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 11, 2020, 01:27:44 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
I don't think Michael Martin will risk dividing the party over a decision to enter a coalition with Sinn Fein.
Even if he stood down I doubt that another party leader could effect close to a consensus on the issue.

Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.

Obvious as it looks I think they won't do that.  Making the Shinners leaders of opposition will help them grow even more support.   Clipping away at the sidelines, getting the airtime that leader of opposition gets.

I think FF/FG would rather not face that.

/Jim.
Practically speaking there is no way a coalition with a working majority can be formed without FG or FF participation.
A minority coalition will not function with FF and FG in opposition.
FG emphatically will not join with SF.
FF are split.
What can FF and FG do to avoid SF from making hay in opposition, becoming the voice of a larger % of the dissafected?

FG can benefit from being in opposition. FF have some hard questions to answer.
They need to answer to the disaffected or become irrelevant. 
SF have taken a huge chunk of FF votes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/election-2020-spell-in-proper-opposition-finds-growing-support-in-fianna-f%C3%A1il-1.4169148

But none of the options are easy for Martin. To save his leadership he will need to enter government with either Sinn Féin or Fine Gael. The first option has the potential to sharply divide Fianna Fáil, and the latter, according to TDs, would be rejected by the parliamentary party and rank-and-file membership.
The third option, and the one finding increasing favour in the party, is returning to full-throated opposition. The problem for Martin is this would likely require him to stand aside as leader.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 04:32:10 PM
All well and good to say FF need to be in full throated opposition but that option is not available to them.
They either enter some form of coalition or nothing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 11, 2020, 04:35:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 02:53:49 PM
But none of the options are easy for Martin. To save his leadership he will need to enter government with either Sinn Féin or Fine Gael. The first option has the potential to sharply divide Fianna Fáil, and the latter, according to TDs, would be rejected by the parliamentary party and rank-and-file membership.
The third option, and the one finding increasing favour in the party, is returning to full-throated opposition. The problem for Martin is this would likely require him to stand aside as leader.

Martin is banjaxed either way. There's no coming back from this.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 05:08:29 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 04:32:10 PM
All well and good to say FF need to be in full throated opposition but that option is not available to them.
They either enter some form of coalition or nothing.
If FF won't go into coalition with SF or FG and if the Left parties fall short numbers-wise there will have to be another election.
Too many parties wanting to be in opposition.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 05:38:35 PM
I see SF are putting out their ATeam for the negotiations-Pearse Doherty, Eoin Ó Broin, Louise O'Reilly.
Senior hurling about to get underway.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 11, 2020, 05:40:49 PM
In the campaign. there was one programme with finance spokespersons. The presenter asked (very reasonably) if the economy went wrong because of Brexit or other event (and Coronavirus is already closing factories in Europe who cannot get Chinese supplies). Pearse Doherty blustered unconvincingly and said that there was so much of a buffer in the SF plan that no change would be needed. This sounded a bit like the financial regulator in 2008 saying that Irish banks were well capitalised.
Now with coalition discussions there have to be priorities and we don't know what these are.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2020, 06:03:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 11, 2020, 12:29:46 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 10, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
SF voters are the most in favour of tax cuts, more than FG or FF. that fits in nicely with the plan to tax foreigners for everything.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQakrvpX0AAbLXp?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

This is why representative democracy is a load of bullshít.

There is nothing to stop questions like that (and more relevant ones) going on a separate ballot aside from the main election.

Then the incoming parties know exactly what the people want.


Representative democracy - pick out 2 or 3 lies from our list of lies that you like - ignoring the rest of our lies that you don't like - and we'll promise to do our very best to do fúck all about delivering these lies. Then "vote for change" in 4 years time to bring back the crowd that shafted you 8 years ago.


It ain't the fúcking (communications) stone age any more - so why are we persisting with a method of government that was invented before the telegram?

Direct democracy has mixed results. Seems to work well in Switzerland from what I've heard. Doesn't work so well in California. Voters are just not that good at micromanaging complex matters of state.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 06:14:46 PM
Brilliant to see so many free staters shitting it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2020, 06:16:55 PM
Imagine trusting SF to look after the economy. The mind boggles at what people think when they go to the polls!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 06:20:59 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2020, 06:16:55 PM
Imagine trusting SF to look after the economy. The mind boggles at what people think when they go to the polls!

Imagine trusting FF to look after the economy.

Oh wait, that's why the free state had to get bailed out by the IMF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 06:23:27 PM
The Stoops are some laughing stock, having got into bed with the most financially reckless party in European politics in Fianna Fail. I suppose if their partitionist ideology marries......
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 11, 2020, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 11, 2020, 05:40:49 PM
In the campaign. there was one programme with finance spokespersons. The presenter asked (very reasonably) if the economy went wrong because of Brexit or other event (and Coronavirus is already closing factories in Europe who cannot get Chinese supplies). Pearse Doherty blustered unconvincingly and said that there was so much of a buffer in the SF plan that no change would be needed. This sounded a bit like the financial regulator in 2008 saying that Irish banks were well capitalised.
Now with coalition discussions there have to be priorities and we don't know what these are.

Do you vote for the Stoops?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 11, 2020, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 05:38:35 PM
I see SF are putting out their ATeam for the negotiations-Pearse Doherty, Eoin Ó Broin, Louise O'Reilly.
Senior hurling about to get underway.

Who's Louise O'Reilly? I suppose in the ranks of SF, O'Doherty would qualify as a heavy hitter alright. Has he much third-level education?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 11, 2020, 07:12:46 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 11, 2020, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 05:38:35 PM
I see SF are putting out their ATeam for the negotiations-Pearse Doherty, Eoin Ó Broin, Louise O'Reilly.
Senior hurling about to get underway.

Who's Louise O'Reilly? I suppose in the ranks of SF, O'Doherty would qualify as a heavy hitter alright. Has he much third-level education?
What has that got to do with it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 11, 2020, 07:16:08 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 11, 2020, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 05:38:35 PM
I see SF are putting out their ATeam for the negotiations-Pearse Doherty, Eoin Ó Broin, Louise O'Reilly.
Senior hurling about to get underway.

Who's Louise O'Reilly? I suppose in the ranks of SF, O'Doherty would qualify as a heavy hitter alright. Has he much third-level education?

There is no O
And you are a snob by the way. Pearse Doherty is very well respected across the board, you clearly know  nothing about politics in the 26.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 11, 2020, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:52:18 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 11, 2020, 01:27:44 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
I don't think Michael Martin will risk dividing the party over a decision to enter a coalition with Sinn Fein.
Even if he stood down I doubt that another party leader could effect close to a consensus on the issue.

Imo the best bet for a coalition is FF FG GP, no more minority party government. The inclusion of the Greens into the mix will change the dynamics of the coalition and make the arrangement somewhat palatable.

Obvious as it looks I think they won't do that.  Making the Shinners leaders of opposition will help them grow even more support.   Clipping away at the sidelines, getting the airtime that leader of opposition gets.

I think FF/FG would rather not face that.

/Jim.
Practically speaking there is no way a coalition with a working majority can be formed without FG or FF participation.
A minority coalition will not function with FF and FG in opposition.
FG emphatically will not join with SF.
FF are split.
What can FF and FG do to avoid SF from making hay in opposition, becoming the voice of a larger % of the dissafected?

I agree - SF and Greens and Independents would be a mess.  Too hard to manage for a coherent government.  After Labour's last outing as a minor partner, all the smaller parties are aware of what happens a party after they are in government.  Crash and burn!

The key question is when will FF AND FG merge?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 11, 2020, 07:31:17 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 11, 2020, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 05:38:35 PM
I see SF are putting out their ATeam for the negotiations-Pearse Doherty, Eoin Ó Broin, Louise O'Reilly.
Senior hurling about to get underway.

Who's Louise O'Reilly? I suppose in the ranks of SF, O'Doherty would qualify as a heavy hitter alright. Has he much third-level education?

What's that got to do with anything? 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 11, 2020, 07:37:20 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 11, 2020, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 11, 2020, 05:38:35 PM
I see SF are putting out their ATeam for the negotiations-Pearse Doherty, Eoin Ó Broin, Louise O'Reilly.
Senior hurling about to get underway.

Who's Louise O'Reilly? I suppose in the ranks of SF, O'Doherty would qualify as a heavy hitter alright. Has he much third-level education?

Whatever about his credentials, I hate that attitude. Condescending, some of the best businessmen have no formal education to their name but they know the price of a pound and how to operate effectively in a work environment. Equally some of the best educated people do not crave leadership roles, are risk averse and non business savvy. Formal education is certainly useful but it is definitely not essential for life in the real world. Doherty to date has proven himself a very capable politician from one side of the fence, he will now have to prove himself again in government but from what I have seen he is probably their best performer.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2020, 08:13:14 PM
Indeed. I think Richard Branson doesn't have a whole lot of formal education, he learned most of what he knows through entrepreneurship.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 11, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
Albert Reynolds, one of the greatest Taoiseachs in the history of the state, in my opinion, didn't have a third level education
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2020, 08:54:31 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on February 11, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
Albert Reynolds, one of the greatest Taoiseachs in the history of the state, in my opinion didn't have a third level education
Either he did or he didn't.  ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
It will have to be another election. 37 is too low a starting point to arrive at 80 . SF didn't put forward enough candidates so it's partly their fault.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Aaron Boone on February 11, 2020, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
It will have to be another election. 37 is too low a starting point to arrive at 80 . SF didn't put forward enough candidates so it's partly their fault.

Who decides a second election is needed, Leo? They cost money.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 11, 2020, 09:29:38 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2020, 08:54:31 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on February 11, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
Albert Reynolds, one of the greatest Taoiseachs in the history of the state, in my opinion didn't have a third level education
Either he did or he didn't.  ;)
Happy now?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: naka on February 11, 2020, 09:34:43 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2020, 06:16:55 PM
Imagine trusting SF to look after the economy. The mind boggles at what people think when they go to the polls!
Chuckling at the mentality of some people.
Ff/fg presided over the crash, the brown bag syndrome, the vulture funds

Not a shinner but they have some very capable people in the southern party who just might surprise a few of you.
All they need to do to get things moving is take a bit of the money Apple owe and throw it towards housing and health.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 11, 2020, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 11, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
It will have to be another election. 37 is too low a starting point to arrive at 80 . SF didn't put forward enough candidates so it's partly their fault.

You'd need to study the transfers, but another election would give SF another half dozen seats, but at the expense of other left parties. FG and FF would refine the number of candidates and probably not do any worse, especially as some people might feel they had made their point and as their new manifestos would "respect the message of the people".  So SF would have a simpler job, but not an easy one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 11, 2020, 10:09:47 PM
Quote from: naka on February 11, 2020, 09:34:43 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2020, 06:16:55 PM
Imagine trusting SF to look after the economy. The mind boggles at what people think when they go to the polls!
Chuckling at the mentality of some people.
Ff/fg presided over the crash, the brown bag syndrome, the vulture funds

Not a shinner but they have some very capable people in the southern party who just might surprise a few of you.
All they need to do to get things moving is take a bit of the money Apple owe and throw it towards housing and health.

Agree they have some very capable politicians. However, even if Apple lost the tax case, they will appeal to the EU court of justice and a final decision is not expected for many years. As the money is in Escrow, it cannot be touched by either party - so these issues would have to be solved with money from elsewhere. The 100,000 social/affordable houses alone will be a lot more than the 6.5 billion they threw out, likely twice that. The crash also happened long before 2011 when FG/Labour gov were tasked with the worst economic situation any government in this country has inherited.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?


Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF claim that alright but from their manifesto:

QuoteProvide an additional €6.5 billion in order  to deliver over 100,000  public  homes on public  land  to meet social and affordable housing needs

Which seems impossible by any measure. Apart from the labour shortage, I can't see how that number of houses can be built for that kind of money no matter how the money itself is raised.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 11, 2020, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?


Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF claim that alright but from their manifesto:

QuoteProvide an additional €6.5 billion in order  to deliver over 100,000  public  homes on public  land  to meet social and affordable housing needs

Which seems impossible by any measure. Apart from the labour shortage, I can't see how that number of houses can be built for that kind of money no matter how the money itself is raised.

In fairness, affordable homes are sold to people and then you can build another one with the same money.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 11, 2020, 11:53:35 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

We are supposed to already have the most progressive tax system in EU and 2nd in OECD.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-has-eu-s-most-progressive-tax-system-study-finds-1.4148368%3fmode=amp
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: The Boy Wonder on February 12, 2020, 12:04:04 AM
Laois-Offaly was traditionally a 5-seater but was split into two 3-seaters for 2016 election due to population increase.
For 2020 election it reverted to a 5-seater with some Laois-Offaly borderlands incorporated into Kildare-South.
The natives were unhappy – couldn't have Lily Whites taking a Laois-Offaly seat.

The solution was electing Portarlington resident, Independent Cathal Barry, in Kildare-South. Now Laois-Offaly is still home to 6 TDs.
Portarlington town is divided by the river Barrow – most of the town is in Laois with Gracefield on the Offaly side. I'm not sure if Waterford native Cathal Barry resides on the Laois or Offaly side of the town but anyway Laois-Offaly is claiming this Kildare TD  :)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Chief on February 12, 2020, 12:06:33 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 11, 2020, 11:53:35 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

We are supposed to already have the most progressive tax system in EU and 2nd in OECD.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-has-eu-s-most-progressive-tax-system-study-finds-1.4148368%3fmode=amp

Point taken. But my argument remains the same, if we're serious about ponying up the euros to fix these problems then asking the richer (it's all relative) to pay a bit more seems the fairest way to go about it. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 12:10:13 AM
Quote from: Chief on February 12, 2020, 12:06:33 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 11, 2020, 11:53:35 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

We are supposed to already have the most progressive tax system in EU and 2nd in OECD.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-has-eu-s-most-progressive-tax-system-study-finds-1.4148368%3fmode=amp

Point taken. But my argument remains the same, if we're serious about ponying up the euros to fix these problems then asking the richer (it's all relative) to pay a bit more seems the fairest way to go about it.

Yes, it is fair to ask rich people to pay a bit more, but also to ensure that everyone is asked to contribute something in recognition of their part as citizens of the Republic. And lumping everything on to income tax means that for every € you earn the State takes more than half and when that happens people find ways around that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 12, 2020, 12:12:16 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 11, 2020, 11:53:35 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

We are supposed to already have the most progressive tax system in EU and 2nd in OECD.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-has-eu-s-most-progressive-tax-system-study-finds-1.4148368%3fmode=amp

That article refers to how our taxation system brings out income inequality pre tax to the EU average. There's room for it to be more progressive. Either that or address gross income inequality.

We are able to pony up Billions for a fibre broadband network (a technology that's possibly going to be outdated by the time it's implemented) that the State will not own. We'd be better off to build houses we can potentially get and income from as well as retain the capital value or sell.

There's massive waste in public finances (Children's hospital overrun). There's definitely plenty of money for important things if we stop wasting money through incompetence.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 12:41:02 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 12, 2020, 12:12:16 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 11, 2020, 11:53:35 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

We are supposed to already have the most progressive tax system in EU and 2nd in OECD.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-has-eu-s-most-progressive-tax-system-study-finds-1.4148368%3fmode=amp

That article refers to how our taxation system brings out income inequality pre tax to the EU average. There's room for it to be more progressive. Either that or address gross income inequality.

Income inequaliy is partly a function of having some well paid jobs in international industries, there is no particular advantage to preventing people getting  these jobs, as they pay most of the tax. There is a limit to income taxation if it is not to discourage people working.


QuoteThere's massive waste in public finances (Children's hospital overrun). There's definitely plenty of money for important things if we stop wasting money through incompetence.

There is no doubt about this. But efficiency rarely enters into the debate. Which is  the most  efficient local authority, for instance? All he discussion is on the amount spent, but not on the bang for the buck.  Some public spending is as efficient as other countries, e.g. education, others is nowhere near as efficient e.g. health.  If SF improve efficiency, I'll join their party, but I am not holding my breath.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on February 12, 2020, 12:41:26 AM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF want to abolish property tax, one of the most progressive tax mechanisms we have. They also don't say where that shortfall will be made up in terms of local authority funding.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 12:52:01 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on February 12, 2020, 12:41:26 AM
SF want to abolish property tax, one of the most progressive tax mechanisms we have. They also don't say where that shortfall will be made up in terms of local authority funding.

This was pointed out, but massive numbers still voted for them. What is their explanation, I wonder.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 02:33:03 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on February 12, 2020, 12:41:26 AM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?

Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF want to abolish property tax, one of the most progressive tax mechanisms we have. They also don't say where that shortfall will be made up in terms of local authority funding.

The greens want to replace property tax with a land value tax, which is a sensible proposal that economists have been advocating for years. If they end up in coalition with SF then they might get their wish.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: OgraAnDun on February 12, 2020, 06:23:22 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?


Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF claim that alright but from their manifesto:

QuoteProvide an additional €6.5 billion in order  to deliver over 100,000  public  homes on public  land  to meet social and affordable housing needs

Which seems impossible by any measure. Apart from the labour shortage, I can't see how that number of houses can be built for that kind of money no matter how the money itself is raised.

There was an excellent talk on Morning Ireland yesterday involving academics in the field who said that the scheme amounted to building homes for around €234k, of which €6.5bn would come from the public purse. The academic was a strong supporter of the policy and suggested that more than €6.5bn will be spent by the state over the next few years in rent to private landlords (if we keep going the way we are).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 07:09:25 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on February 12, 2020, 06:23:22 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?


Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF claim that alright but from their manifesto:

QuoteProvide an additional €6.5 billion in order  to deliver over 100,000  public  homes on public  land  to meet social and affordable housing needs

Which seems impossible by any measure. Apart from the labour shortage, I can't see how that number of houses can be built for that kind of money no matter how the money itself is raised.

There was an excellent talk on Morning Ireland yesterday involving academics in the field who said that the scheme amounted to building homes for around €234k, of which €6.5bn would come from the public purse. The academic was a strong supporter of the policy and suggested that more than €6.5bn will be spent by the state over the next few years in rent to private landlords (if we keep going the way we are).

I heard the same. 50k of these new houses are already budgeted for  the challenge isnt the money or the approach, the challenge is getting the labour to build the houses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 07:11:42 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on February 12, 2020, 06:23:22 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?


Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF claim that alright but from their manifesto:

QuoteProvide an additional €6.5 billion in order  to deliver over 100,000  public  homes on public  land  to meet social and affordable housing needs

Which seems impossible by any measure. Apart from the labour shortage, I can't see how that number of houses can be built for that kind of money no matter how the money itself is raised.

There was an excellent talk on Morning Ireland yesterday involving academics in the field who said that the scheme amounted to building homes for around €234k, of which €6.5bn would come from the public purse. The academic was a strong supporter of the policy and suggested that more than €6.5bn will be spent by the state over the next few years in rent to private landlords (if we keep going the way we are).

The Stoops/FF won't like that one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 07:47:36 AM
There was an all out assault on Sinn Fein before the election by vested interests, most of them with very close links to FF and FG. Here, after the election, is what IBEC and others are now saying. Striking the difference isnt it....


Ibec says Sinn Féin 'not mad' when it comes to the economy
'Manifestos are one thing, but programmes for government are a different animal'

Senior members of the Irish business world envisage no difficulty developing a working partnership with Sinn Féin, should the left-leaning party be part of the next government.

As the dramatic result of the election took shape, global financial newswire Bloomberg suggested now "could be a good time to dump the country's bonds" as risks may increase, citing reasons such as spending promises by Sinn Féin.

However, Brian Hayes, the top lobbyist for Irish bankers, and a former Fine Gael junior finance minister, believes suggestions of increased political risk in fiscal matters is "exaggerated".

Tax
"People need to be relaxed about this," said Mr Hayes, chief executive of Banking and Payments Federation Ireland.

"With Sinn Féin, it's all about what a programme for government says. Manifestos are one thing, but programmes for government are a different animal."

In its manifesto, Sinn Féin made huge spending promises and effectively said it would narrow the tax base. However, it also pledged to retain the 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and protect funding for investment agency, IDA Ireland.

"It was a change election. If people were talking about radical change to investment policy and free movement of capital, that would be a worry. But I don't think they are. I'm confident of a stable government."

Danny McCoy, director general of employers' lobby group, Ibec, said he could "absolutely" see the Irish business world being able to work with Sinn Féin: "We have seen them in action in the North. Their instincts are not that mad when it comes to business."

Mr McCoy called for the next government to enter a process of "social dialogue" with business and societal groups to discuss investment in infrastructure and public spending.

"The public sector is too small for the size of the private sector, and that is really something for Ibec to say. The lack of doctors, the lack of guards etc. You can feel it. We agree there needs to be an allocation of resources towards issues that affect people's everyday lives, like housing."

He called on Sinn Féin, if it enters government, not to "frighten the horses" when it comes to issues such as attracting foreign investment.

The American Chamber of Commerce Ireland, which represents many US-based FDI investors here, said it wants the next government to provide stability and "remain committed to Ireland's business friendly environment".

Prominent property developer, Johnny Ronan, called on the party to be "pragmatic" if it enters government: "Their manifesto makes clear that the party recognises the benefits and jobs that have flowed to Ireland as a result of foreign direct investment. It's crucial that commitment is maintained."

He said much of Sinn Féin's investment promises were "sensible stuff. Business is part of the solution here, not part of the problem".

Mr Ronan has previously developed premises for FDI investors such as Amazon, and is currently building a new headquarters for Facebook. He also has a pipeline of up to 1,400 residential units. One of Sinn Féin's signature election promises was a rent freeze and a promise to invest €6 billion in housing.

"The electorate has sent a clear message about the importance of delivering affordable housing. Every unit built is part of the solution here," he said.

Mr Ronan criticised building height restrictions in Dublin, however, and said the new government "simply has to get a proper grip on the planning process".

"We recently had permission granted by An Bord Pleanála to deliver over 600 residential units. Dublin City Council is now seeking a judicial review of that decision, holding up residential construction in the middle of a housing crisis."
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 12, 2020, 09:02:22 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2020, 08:54:31 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on February 11, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
Albert Reynolds, one of the greatest Taoiseachs in the history of the state, in my opinion didn't have a third level education
Either he did or he didn't.  ;)

Bloody Oxford comma's   ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2020, 09:08:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 07:47:36 AM
There was an all out assault on Sinn Fein before the election by vested interests, most of them with very close links to FF and FG. Here, after the election, is what IBEC and others are now saying. Striking the difference isnt it....


Ibec says Sinn Féin 'not mad' when it comes to the economy
'Manifestos are one thing, but programmes for government are a different animal'

Senior members of the Irish business world envisage no difficulty developing a working partnership with Sinn Féin, should the left-leaning party be part of the next government.

As the dramatic result of the election took shape, global financial newswire Bloomberg suggested now "could be a good time to dump the country's bonds" as risks may increase, citing reasons such as spending promises by Sinn Féin.

However, Brian Hayes, the top lobbyist for Irish bankers, and a former Fine Gael junior finance minister, believes suggestions of increased political risk in fiscal matters is "exaggerated".

Tax
"People need to be relaxed about this," said Mr Hayes, chief executive of Banking and Payments Federation Ireland.

"With Sinn Féin, it's all about what a programme for government says. Manifestos are one thing, but programmes for government are a different animal."

In its manifesto, Sinn Féin made huge spending promises and effectively said it would narrow the tax base. However, it also pledged to retain the 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and protect funding for investment agency, IDA Ireland.

"It was a change election. If people were talking about radical change to investment policy and free movement of capital, that would be a worry. But I don't think they are. I'm confident of a stable government."

Danny McCoy, director general of employers' lobby group, Ibec, said he could "absolutely" see the Irish business world being able to work with Sinn Féin: "We have seen them in action in the North. Their instincts are not that mad when it comes to business."

Mr McCoy called for the next government to enter a process of "social dialogue" with business and societal groups to discuss investment in infrastructure and public spending.

"The public sector is too small for the size of the private sector, and that is really something for Ibec to say. The lack of doctors, the lack of guards etc. You can feel it. We agree there needs to be an allocation of resources towards issues that affect people's everyday lives, like housing."

He called on Sinn Féin, if it enters government, not to "frighten the horses" when it comes to issues such as attracting foreign investment.

The American Chamber of Commerce Ireland, which represents many US-based FDI investors here, said it wants the next government to provide stability and "remain committed to Ireland's business friendly environment".

Prominent property developer, Johnny Ronan, called on the party to be "pragmatic" if it enters government: "Their manifesto makes clear that the party recognises the benefits and jobs that have flowed to Ireland as a result of foreign direct investment. It's crucial that commitment is maintained."

He said much of Sinn Féin's investment promises were "sensible stuff. Business is part of the solution here, not part of the problem".

Mr Ronan has previously developed premises for FDI investors such as Amazon, and is currently building a new headquarters for Facebook. He also has a pipeline of up to 1,400 residential units. One of Sinn Féin's signature election promises was a rent freeze and a promise to invest €6 billion in housing.

"The electorate has sent a clear message about the importance of delivering affordable housing. Every unit built is part of the solution here," he said.

Mr Ronan criticised building height restrictions in Dublin, however, and said the new government "simply has to get a proper grip on the planning process".

"We recently had permission granted by An Bord Pleanála to deliver over 600 residential units. Dublin City Council is now seeking a judicial review of that decision, holding up residential construction in the middle of a housing crisis."

That article is nuts
It is not possible to simultaneously please Johnny Ronan, Brian Hayes, Foreign investors who want things to be "business friendly" and people who can't afford to buy a house and voted SF. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:17:41 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 07:09:25 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on February 12, 2020, 06:23:22 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 11, 2020, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
Am I missing something in the economics talk here?

Firstly - I thought SF's manifesto was costed by the Department of Finance and they concluded that when their numbers were run that a budget surplus was still expected?


Secondly - what is the acceptable right/centre-right way of raising the funds to fix the housing, homelessness and housing crises? As I see it you can either tax, borrow or ignore the problem - those are your choices. So assuming you can't ignore it, and you don't want to add to the astronomical  national debt, then presumably you'll raise the funds via tax. If that's your conclusion then surely you want to tax progressively (I.e. richest pay the most) and is that not how SF have proposed to fix these problems?

SF claim that alright but from their manifesto:

QuoteProvide an additional €6.5 billion in order  to deliver over 100,000  public  homes on public  land  to meet social and affordable housing needs

Which seems impossible by any measure. Apart from the labour shortage, I can't see how that number of houses can be built for that kind of money no matter how the money itself is raised.

There was an excellent talk on Morning Ireland yesterday involving academics in the field who said that the scheme amounted to building homes for around €234k, of which €6.5bn would come from the public purse. The academic was a strong supporter of the policy and suggested that more than €6.5bn will be spent by the state over the next few years in rent to private landlords (if we keep going the way we are).

I heard the same. 50k of these new houses are already budgeted for  the challenge isnt the money or the approach, the challenge is getting the labour to build the houses.

Just listened to it there, good piece - you'd wonder why there wasn't more of this type of thing before the election; getting experts to assess policies rather than politicians sh*ting on with soundbites and one liners.

The upshot of it seems to be:
- 50k houses already budgeted for (presumably under Rebuilding Ireland). Didn't say how much budget was already put by for these
- 30k houses using the "O'Cualann" model (https://www.ocualann.ie/about) for affordable purchase. Basically the govt provdies a free site & no development levies on the site (costing ~ 50k/unit) and get someone like O'Cualann to build them (~1.5Bn). (Note that this group has only delivered 50 units to date so 30k looks difficult but the model seems to be good)
- 10k houses for affordable social housing & 10k houses for affordable rental housing - these will cost 234k/unit (4.7Bn)

Assuming they can agree on how to fund this, the main difficulty for the next govt is going to be delivering these within the next 5 years.

They also talked about bulk-buying for raw materials to reduce cost but considering the bureaucracy involved at all levels of govt, it's hard to see that materialising.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.

More housing units need to be supplied but that's probably more a second issue, the rental market has filtered out of control and it's a product of FG/FF policies and it's not by accident, it's by design. Plenty of FF/FG TDs have vested interests in a market that profits landlords.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2020, 11:06:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.

More housing units need to be supplied but that's probably more a second issue, the rental market has filtered out of control and it's a product of FG/FF policies and it's not by accident, it's by design. Plenty of FF/FG TDs have vested interests in a market that profits landlords.

It is a property bubble caused by low interest rates

They all crash and according to Morgan Kelly when that happens the house
loses 70% of the increase in price during the bubble.
It is all fairly mechanical.

https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/handle/10197/2630
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 12, 2020, 11:45:55 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

When I was setting out in the 90's fixity of tenure was a huge issue.  It appears to be today as well.  When things seem on the up landlord start to raise rents or look to sell on the appreciated asset.   There is little legal impediment to this.  I have a German buddy who owns a house and apartment.  He lives in house with family and rents out apartment.  Once apartment is looked after (independent government inspector can be invoked to check this), tenant pays rent (state rent control and reviews) he can only get the apartment back if he himself is homeless.

The fixity of tenure things goes back to the 1800s in Ireland (remember it was a key demand of the Land League).  I think it is part of our psyche now.

Long term in can mean not paying rent on a pension.  I would say a lot of people would fear being on a low state pension and trying to make the rent.

That's two reasons straight away.

/Jim.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:38:41 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2020, 06:03:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 11, 2020, 12:29:46 PM
This is why representative democracy is a load of bullshít.

There is nothing to stop questions like that (and more relevant ones) going on a separate ballot aside from the main election.

Then the incoming parties know exactly what the people want.


Representative democracy - pick out 2 or 3 lies from our list of lies that you like - ignoring the rest of our lies that you don't like - and we'll promise to do our very best to do fúck all about delivering these lies. Then "vote for change" in 4 years time to bring back the crowd that shafted you 8 years ago.


It ain't the fúcking (communications) stone age any more - so why are we persisting with a method of government that was invented before the telegram?

Direct democracy has mixed results. Seems to work well in Switzerland from what I've heard. Doesn't work so well in California. Voters are just not that good at micromanaging complex matters of state.

Ah, but your still dressing it up in the same democratic model we have at the moment.

If I'd my way the system would be:

Elected President (who cannot be affiliated with any party), who selects a cabinet of professionals, each must be qualified for their role (i.e. a suitably qualified and experienced doctor/nurse in charge of health, or for infrastructure that'd be a suitably qualified and experienced engineer). They are interviewed by both representative bodies (outlined below).

(A) The Senate is done away with and replaced with an assembly of members elected by professional bodies.

(B) The Dail is retained (but reduced in numbers), and is elected by the people.

The people also provide steering macro-information on what they want.

  • Taxes up/down
  • High level spending distribution
etc

They also have a list of referendum questions on social matters as carried through the previous Dail sitting (more below)[1]


The cabinet then run the country according to the desires of the people as expressed by steering information.
The Dail keep the cabinet honest by representing the people and can push for localised projects.
Any decisions are proposed by the cabinet and voted on by both the Dail and the assembly of professionals. So each statute must stand on its merits rather than be whipped as can be now. The Dail and the assembly of professionals can scrutinize statues and suggest amendments, which then go back to cabinet.

The president (and by extension his cabinet) is voted on every 4 years, although the Dail & assembly of professionals can call votes of no confidence in any cabinet member at any time. A passed VONC means that member must be replaced.

The Dail is voted in every 4 years.

The assembly of professionals is voted on every 4 years [although this is a much smaller vote than referendum obviously as there are far fewer professional bodies].


[1]Any social law changes (i.e. recent abortion change) can be raised for discussion by the bodies via petition of greater than 5% of population. If agreement on the change cannot be agreed by both bodies & cabinet, it is put onto a further decision sheet for the next Dail election  Any petition over 15% of the population is deemed a matter of great importance, and even any statue agreed by the representative bodies is put back to the people on that same decision sheet at the Dail election.




So the idea is to break with party politics swinging from fiscal right to fiscal left, f**king up the economy each which way as they go and offer a more stable system. It is also to put suitably qualified and experienced people in charge, who can see through civil service bullshit and ineptitude as well as see through bullshit costing of projects from contractors too. The assembly of professional bodies only adds to being able to see through crap - and offer a degree of informed scrutiny that they Dail (or Senate) simply cannot. It also puts the people in charge of the high level direction of the country, and at the same time allows them greater fidelity in decisions than a manifesto.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 12, 2020, 01:22:14 PM
Dundoogan is an example of an Affordable Housing scheme, which does not cost the state
and believe it or not,  contrary to the ignorant hysteria of some politicians does not send Ireland down the path of Venezuela.


Dundoogan, Haynestown is a planned 1100 home development, 112 of which Tuath are acquiring for social housing in collaboration with the Department of Housing, Louth County Council and developer, Cannon Kirk Ltd.
The total cost of the 112 social homes is circa €27 million, which, when completed, will consist of 40 two bed houses, 66 three bed houses and 6 four bed houses. All tenants to be housed are from Louth County Council's housing list. The legal, financial and management framework for Dundoogan was agreed between Louth County Council, Túath and Cannon Kirk Ltd. Tuath's purchase is being funded by a combination of CALF (Capital Advanced Leasing Facility) from the Department of Housing and competitive loan finance on a fixed term of 25 years from the Housing Finance Agency / European Investment Bank.


https://www.icsh.ie/content/members-news/social-housing-development-launch-b%C3%A9al-%C3%A1tha-ghaorthaidh (https://www.icsh.ie/content/members-news/social-housing-development-launch-b%C3%A9al-%C3%A1tha-ghaorthaidh)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on February 12, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
landlords are actually exiting the sector
especially small landlords

a lot of houses in towns are being bought by investment funds, renovated and then high rents set as the houses are in good areas
other landlords see the rents rising, so do so likewise
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on February 12, 2020, 01:31:15 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:38:41 PM
(A) The Senate is done away with and replaced with an assembly of members elected by professional bodies.

What professional bodies would these be?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

I'm saying the rental market is a bigger problem. Government policy has put the rental market out of control, housing units then become valuable commodities for investors and wealthy individuals who can yield high profitable returns from buying a house and putting it into the rental market. They are also pricing prospective first time buyers out of the markets two fold, in that extortionate rents stop people from being able to save up necessary deposits and the fact they have easier access of capital to purchase these houses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on February 12, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

I'm saying the rental market is a bigger problem. Government policy has put the rental market out of control, housing units then become valuable commodities for investors and wealthy individuals who can yield high profitable returns from buying a house and putting it into the rental market. They are also pricing prospective first time buyers out of the markets two fold, in that extortionate rents stop people from being able to save up necessary deposits and the fact they have easier access of capital to purchase these houses.

Which government policies exactly have put the market out of control?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 12, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

I'm saying the rental market is a bigger problem. Government policy has put the rental market out of control, housing units then become valuable commodities for investors and wealthy individuals who can yield high profitable returns from buying a house and putting it into the rental market. They are also pricing prospective first time buyers out of the markets two fold, in that extortionate rents stop people from being able to save up necessary deposits and the fact they have easier access of capital to purchase these houses.

Which government policies exactly have put the market out of control?

The state subsidises private landlords to the tune of about half a billion a year.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 12, 2020, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 12, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

I'm saying the rental market is a bigger problem. Government policy has put the rental market out of control, housing units then become valuable commodities for investors and wealthy individuals who can yield high profitable returns from buying a house and putting it into the rental market. They are also pricing prospective first time buyers out of the markets two fold, in that extortionate rents stop people from being able to save up necessary deposits and the fact they have easier access of capital to purchase these houses.

Which government policies exactly have put the market out of control?

The state subsidises private landlords to the tune of about half a billion a year.

Are those not HAP payments - where landlords are getting a subsidy to provide social housing. Is it a Sinn Fein policy to remove the HAP payment. Generally curious, don't know the answer.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2020, 02:12:16 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 12, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

I'm saying the rental market is a bigger problem. Government policy has put the rental market out of control, housing units then become valuable commodities for investors and wealthy individuals who can yield high profitable returns from buying a house and putting it into the rental market. They are also pricing prospective first time buyers out of the markets two fold, in that extortionate rents stop people from being able to save up necessary deposits and the fact they have easier access of capital to purchase these houses.

Which government policies exactly have put the market out of control?
Probably being REIT and vulture friendly
Plus subsidising rent instead of building social housing
But the ECB dropping rates to please debtholders has also done damage
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 12, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

I'm saying the rental market is a bigger problem. Government policy has put the rental market out of control, housing units then become valuable commodities for investors and wealthy individuals who can yield high profitable returns from buying a house and putting it into the rental market. They are also pricing prospective first time buyers out of the markets two fold, in that extortionate rents stop people from being able to save up necessary deposits and the fact they have easier access of capital to purchase these houses.

Which government policies exactly have put the market out of control?

The state subsidises private landlords to the tune of about half a billion a year.

Are those not HAP payments - where landlords are getting a subsidy to provide social housing. Is it a Sinn Fein policy to remove the HAP payment. Generally curious, don't know the answer.

Long term yes, they want to invest more in capital and less in the private sector which is logical, pragmatic and far more efficient use of public money. HAP payments inflate the rental market.

The FF FG approach is to privatise everything and big business will manipulate the market to get as much out of it as they can. Look at the state of the health service because  FF and FG took the route of a two tier health system.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 02:37:50 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 12, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

The current problem isn't necessarily with owning a house, it's moreso the fact that a lack of supply of housing overall has caused rents to increase hugely resulting in increased homelessness and many people spending a large % of their income on rent

It's moreso with the fact that there's a huge incentive for wealthy individuals or investors to purchase housing units and commodities that will yield big profits and appreciate in value.


So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

I'm saying the rental market is a bigger problem. Government policy has put the rental market out of control, housing units then become valuable commodities for investors and wealthy individuals who can yield high profitable returns from buying a house and putting it into the rental market. They are also pricing prospective first time buyers out of the markets two fold, in that extortionate rents stop people from being able to save up necessary deposits and the fact they have easier access of capital to purchase these houses.

Rent is dependent on supply/demand balance the market - nobody would be able to charge these extortionate rents if there was sufficient supply (look back pre-2015 for proof of this). Currently, there's a massive deficit on the supply side

Institutional investors affect the prices houses sell for but not the prices charged for rent.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 12, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
landlords are actually exiting the sector
especially small landlords

a lot of houses in towns are being bought by investment funds, renovated and then high rents set as the houses are in good areas
other landlords see the rents rising, so do so likewise

Sorry, yeah, I should have made clear I am encompassing the investment funds within my definition of "landlords".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 02:45:55 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 12, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
landlords are actually exiting the sector
especially small landlords

a lot of houses in towns are being bought by investment funds, renovated and then high rents set as the houses are in good areas
other landlords see the rents rising, so do so likewise

Sorry, yeah, I should have made clear I am encompassing the investment funds within my definition of "landlords".

You'd imagine applying a fair level of taxation on REITs would go a long way to resolving that problem
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 02:53:15 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 12, 2020, 01:31:15 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:38:41 PM
(A) The Senate is done away with and replaced with an assembly of members elected by professional bodies.

What professional bodies would these be?

Bodies like the Irish Medical Organisation, Engineers Ireland, Law Society of Ireland, Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland or similar.

There obviously would have to be qualifying criteria - which of course could be adjusted by the established framework: Proposed by Cabinet; passed in both Dail & Professional Assembly.



The big problem would be getting the whole thing off the ground. For which you'd probably need a revolution of sorts (the corrupt turkeys in the Dail aren't going to vote for Christmas) and then drawing of a new constitution. Never gonna happen unfortunately.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 02:45:55 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 12, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
landlords are actually exiting the sector
especially small landlords

a lot of houses in towns are being bought by investment funds, renovated and then high rents set as the houses are in good areas
other landlords see the rents rising, so do so likewise

Sorry, yeah, I should have made clear I am encompassing the investment funds within my definition of "landlords".

You'd imagine applying a fair level of taxation on REITs would go a long way to resolving that problem

You'd think so.

But when Dublin is viewed as the best property investment location in Europe for 4 years running, I think the "fair level of taxation" has not yet been reached!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 02:53:15 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 12, 2020, 01:31:15 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:38:41 PM
(A) The Senate is done away with and replaced with an assembly of members elected by professional bodies.

What professional bodies would these be?

Bodies like the Irish Medical Organisation, Engineers Ireland, Law Society of Ireland, Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland or similar.

There obviously would have to be qualifying criteria - which of course could be adjusted by the established framework: Proposed by Cabinet; passed in both Dail & Professional Assembly.



The big problem would be getting the whole thing off the ground. For which you'd probably need a revolution of sorts (the corrupt turkeys in the Dail aren't going to vote for Christmas) and then drawing of a new constitution. Never gonna happen unfortunately.

TBF, we had a chance to get rid of the senate in 2013 but we rejected it. I'm pretty sure there was all sorts of reform promised at the time.........
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on February 12, 2020, 03:03:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 12, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
landlords are actually exiting the sector
especially small landlords

a lot of houses in towns are being bought by investment funds, renovated and then high rents set as the houses are in good areas
other landlords see the rents rising, so do so likewise

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cairn-sells-229-homes-to-landlord-for-78m-1.4135996

This is what you are up against. Capitalism at its finest.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2020, 03:07:01 PM
I wouldn't buy a house now

https://www.ft.com/content/360028ba-c702-11e9-af46-b09e8bfe60c0

"Policymakers acknowledged they had reached a turning point in the way they viewed the global system. They cannot rely on the tools they used before the financial crisis to shape the economic environment, and the US can no longer be considered a predictable actor in economic or trade policy — even though there is no imminent replacement for the US dollar in sight.
"Central banks will not be able to return to the policies they relied on before the global financial crisis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 12, 2020, 03:29:21 PM
Hopefully the new Government will end tax free status for Vulture funds and give practical help to young people to buy houses.
How about no stamp duty or a flat €500 for 1st time buyers of new houses ( with income and price/size limits)
How about deferring say 40% of the VAT for 1st time buyers of new houses. Can be paid over they years via PAYE or whatever.
How about then requiring only a €5,000 deposit.
Again with income and size/price limits.

How about NAMA borrowing €3 or €4 Bn from the Credit Union movement to build affordable houses for sale at cost price.
They'd get the money back from the purchaser +say €10k site cost and VAT of €20 to 25k. This money could be used to build houses for a Tenant Purchase scheme e.g.
The Credit Union could get 2% interest over 18 months which is better than paying banks to mind their Billions.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Denn Forever on February 12, 2020, 03:47:55 PM
That is much too fair. Now what's in it for potential/landlords/TDs?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Brendan Howlin to resign as Labour leader. Leo Varadkar to do the same? Fine Gael had its worst election result since 1948.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Brendan Howlin to resign as Labour leader. Leo Varadkar to do the same? Fine Gael had its worst election result since 1948.

Hopefully anyone but Alan Kelly to replace him.

Leo won't resign and I doubt he'll be pushed just yet anyway, maybe in the months ahead though
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2020, 04:13:11 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Brendan Howlin to resign as Labour leader. Leo Varadkar to do the same? Fine Gael had its worst election result since 1948.
Labour only got 6 and were expecting 10. They didn't have a mandate to participate in government, and hadn't been in government either.
FG were in power for the last 2 Dail sessions. They weren't expected to do well.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 04:29:36 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on February 12, 2020, 03:03:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 12, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
landlords are actually exiting the sector
especially small landlords

a lot of houses in towns are being bought by investment funds, renovated and then high rents set as the houses are in good areas
other landlords see the rents rising, so do so likewise

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cairn-sells-229-homes-to-landlord-for-78m-1.4135996

This is what you are up against. Capitalism at its finest.

Exactly what I mean. How is the average couple supposed to go up against that?

Never mind someone on their own looking to buy a roof for over their head!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 12, 2020, 04:32:04 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Brendan Howlin to resign as Labour leader. Leo Varadkar to do the same? Fine Gael had its worst election result since 1948.

Hopefully anyone but Alan Kelly to replace him.

Leo won't resign and I doubt he'll be pushed just yet anyway, maybe in the months ahead though

It's a funny one re the mechanics. Leo has to resign as Taoiseach when the Dail resumes in a week or two. But if there's no agreement on a coalition by then, then he has to stay on as Caretaker Taoiseach. And the Cabinet has to continue on as Caretaker Ministers, even though the likes of Ross and Zappone are no longer TDs. None of the caretakers are allowed to resign their posts until the new government is formed.

Technically Leo could resign as FG leader but he would still have to continue as Caretaker Taoiseach, so I couldn't see that happening.
So it's likely Leo has a good month left as leader of the country. Could all look a bit silly if it's the current crew representing Ireland at all the worldwide St Patrick's Day festivities, but it is what it is I suppose.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 12, 2020, 04:41:57 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 04:29:36 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on February 12, 2020, 03:03:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 12, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 10:45:32 AM
So are you saying that supply is not the problem?

Supply is part of the problem.

Landlords having the purchasing power (no doubt many by dint of their rental incomes) to price out folks looking to buy-to-live is another.
landlords are actually exiting the sector
especially small landlords

a lot of houses in towns are being bought by investment funds, renovated and then high rents set as the houses are in good areas
other landlords see the rents rising, so do so likewise

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cairn-sells-229-homes-to-landlord-for-78m-1.4135996

This is what you are up against. Capitalism at its finest.

Exactly what I mean. How is the average couple supposed to go up against that?

Never mind someone on their own looking to buy a roof for over their head!
Besides the point I know, but if I had €78.75million to spare, I don't think I'd use it to buy 229 apartments, houses and duplexes in Adamstown! Part of an 1,100 unit concrete jungle by the sounds of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 12, 2020, 05:26:08 PM
How long will they command a rent of €500k + per month?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 12, 2020, 05:29:32 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 12, 2020, 05:26:08 PM
How long will they command a rent of €500k + per month?

?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 12, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
whats the obssesion in ireland with owning a house.

That's been the policy in a lot of the English-speaking world. Governments have subsidized home ownership for ideological reasons, but it's backfired with a ton of perverse incentives that make housing more expensive overall.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 06:03:28 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 12, 2020, 04:32:04 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Brendan Howlin to resign as Labour leader. Leo Varadkar to do the same? Fine Gael had its worst election result since 1948.

Hopefully anyone but Alan Kelly to replace him.

Leo won't resign and I doubt he'll be pushed just yet anyway, maybe in the months ahead though

It's a funny one re the mechanics. Leo has to resign as Taoiseach when the Dail resumes in a week or two. But if there's no agreement on a coalition by then, then he has to stay on as Caretaker Taoiseach. And the Cabinet has to continue on as Caretaker Ministers, even though the likes of Ross and Zappone are no longer TDs. None of the caretakers are allowed to resign their posts until the new government is formed.

Technically Leo could resign as FG leader but he would still have to continue as Caretaker Taoiseach, so I couldn't see that happening.
So it's likely Leo has a good month left as leader of the country. Could all look a bit silly if it's the current crew representing Ireland at all the worldwide St Patrick's Day festivities, but it is what it is I suppose.

Do they not stay on as TDs until a government is formed and the new crop takes their seats?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 06:28:20 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 06:03:28 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 12, 2020, 04:32:04 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Brendan Howlin to resign as Labour leader. Leo Varadkar to do the same? Fine Gael had its worst election result since 1948.

Hopefully anyone but Alan Kelly to replace him.

Leo won't resign and I doubt he'll be pushed just yet anyway, maybe in the months ahead though

It's a funny one re the mechanics. Leo has to resign as Taoiseach when the Dail resumes in a week or two. But if there's no agreement on a coalition by then, then he has to stay on as Caretaker Taoiseach. And the Cabinet has to continue on as Caretaker Ministers, even though the likes of Ross and Zappone are no longer TDs. None of the caretakers are allowed to resign their posts until the new government is formed.

Technically Leo could resign as FG leader but he would still have to continue as Caretaker Taoiseach, so I couldn't see that happening.
So it's likely Leo has a good month left as leader of the country. Could all look a bit silly if it's the current crew representing Ireland at all the worldwide St Patrick's Day festivities, but it is what it is I suppose.

Do they not stay on as TDs until a government is formed and the new crop takes their seats?

The Dáil will meet on Thursday 20 February. and elect a Ceann Comhairle, which it might succeed in doing. It will then vote for a Taoiseach, which it will likely not succeed in doing. These ministers will not be TDs then.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 06:28:20 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 06:03:28 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 12, 2020, 04:32:04 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Brendan Howlin to resign as Labour leader. Leo Varadkar to do the same? Fine Gael had its worst election result since 1948.

Hopefully anyone but Alan Kelly to replace him.

Leo won't resign and I doubt he'll be pushed just yet anyway, maybe in the months ahead though

It's a funny one re the mechanics. Leo has to resign as Taoiseach when the Dail resumes in a week or two. But if there's no agreement on a coalition by then, then he has to stay on as Caretaker Taoiseach. And the Cabinet has to continue on as Caretaker Ministers, even though the likes of Ross and Zappone are no longer TDs. None of the caretakers are allowed to resign their posts until the new government is formed.

Technically Leo could resign as FG leader but he would still have to continue as Caretaker Taoiseach, so I couldn't see that happening.
So it's likely Leo has a good month left as leader of the country. Could all look a bit silly if it's the current crew representing Ireland at all the worldwide St Patrick's Day festivities, but it is what it is I suppose.

Do they not stay on as TDs until a government is formed and the new crop takes their seats?

The Dáil will meet on Thursday 20 February. and elect a Ceann Comhairle, which it might succeed in doing. It will then vote for a Taoiseach, which it will likely not succeed in doing. These ministers will not be TDs then.

But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 09:05:40 PM
Labour apparently ruling themselves out of govt which seems to put the kybosh on (the already unlikely) possibility of a left wing govt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:38 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 12, 2020, 09:05:40 PM
Labour apparently ruling themselves out of govt which seems to put the kybosh on (the already unlikely) possibility of a left wing govt.

Hard to see how they can do that without a leader in place?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

Nope. SF would be the big winners in that scenario, they'd have a better picture of how many candidates they can run. FF and FG would lose seats and SF would pick them up.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 12, 2020, 11:13:42 PM
Who knows what would happen if after 3 or 4 months there's another Election.
I suspect SF would probably wipe out a lot of the other lefties as their no. 2s would stay " in house" rather than going to the likes of PBPites.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Aaron Boone on February 12, 2020, 11:30:53 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 12, 2020, 11:13:42 PM
Who knows what would happen if after 3 or 4 months there's another Election.
I suspect SF would probably wipe out a lot of the other lefties as their no. 2s would stay " in house" rather than going to the likes of PBPites.

Big example was O'Snodaigh's surplus in Dublin South-Central going to Brid Smith and the actress Joan Collins.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 12, 2020, 11:41:42 PM
And the odious rich boy Murphy got elected on SF transfers.
Seems PBP didnt include Solidarity's 1 TD or Rise's 1 TD in their discussions with SF.
I'd say Marylou would have some craic trying to keep those 5 in line in a left wing Coalition ( which can't happen anyway)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 12, 2020, 11:49:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Cullinane hurled the sink against the Shinners good and harder than any media outlet. These media outlets have minds of their own without doing the shilling for FF / FG. Too often they have unfairly attacked FG over the past few years, conveniently ignoring how things were 11 years ago or FG's impeccable handling of Brexit.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 13, 2020, 12:24:59 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
Nope. SF would be the big winners in that scenario, they'd have a better picture of how many candidates they can run. FF and FG would lose seats and SF would pick them up.

Sf transfers did not go to FG or FF, in general. They will take the seats off those elected on those transfers. They'd end up with 44 or 45, while still needing 81.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 13, 2020, 12:30:15 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 13, 2020, 12:24:59 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
Nope. SF would be the big winners in that scenario, they'd have a better picture of how many candidates they can run. FF and FG would lose seats and SF would pick them up.

Sf transfers did not go to FG or FF, in general. They will take the seats off those elected on those transfers. They'd end up with 44 or 45, while still needing 81.
In another election, SF transfers would go to the extra SF candidates that they now know they could have had running.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on February 13, 2020, 06:57:46 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 13, 2020, 12:30:15 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 13, 2020, 12:24:59 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
Nope. SF would be the big winners in that scenario, they'd have a better picture of how many candidates they can run. FF and FG would lose seats and SF would pick them up.

Sf transfers did not go to FG or FF, in general. They will take the seats off those elected on those transfers. They'd end up with 44 or 45, while still needing 81.
In another election, SF transfers would go to the extra SF candidates that they now know they could have had running.

Thats exactly what he said.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on February 13, 2020, 07:46:44 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 13, 2020, 12:30:15 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 13, 2020, 12:24:59 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
Nope. SF would be the big winners in that scenario, they'd have a better picture of how many candidates they can run. FF and FG would lose seats and SF would pick them up.

Sf transfers did not go to FG or FF, in general. They will take the seats off those elected on those transfers. They'd end up with 44 or 45, while still needing 81.
In another election, SF transfers would go to the extra SF candidates that they now know they could have had running.
SF doing so well will bring out a much bigger 'anyone but SF' vote the next time
A lot of people are shocked with the number of seats they got
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
They'd  also be blamed by many for not being adult enough to do a deal to form a Government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

FFG would have to adopt some of SF's policies. Neoliberal business as usual won't get them anywhere.



   https://www.ft.com/content/26a7a74e-4d8a-11ea-95a0-43d18ec715f5

   "According to an exit poll published on Saturday, some 63 per cent of voters said they did not feel they had benefited from an improvement in the economy.

The housing shortage is a particular concern, especially among the under-35s. A recent study by the Central Bank of Ireland showed that only one new dwelling was built for every seven additional people in the population between 2011 and 2019. Rents have increased by 40 per cent in the past five years, while average earnings have grown by just 14 per cent."



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:53:30 AM
SF will source some unknown card candidates(if they are not on hols). They would be returned with a bigger majority. The smaller parties would be wiped out as there is no such thing as a coalition of the left. The transfer advice was designed to keep FF/FG out not get lefties in. SF ARE NOT A LEFT WING PARTY.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:53:30 AM
SF will source some unknown card candidates(if they are not on hols). They would be returned with a bigger majority. The smaller parties would be wiped out as there is no such thing as a coalition of the left. The transfer advice was designed to keep FF/FG out not get lefties in. SF ARE NOT A LEFT WING PARTY.
FF can be left wing or right wing depending on the mojo of the people.
SF  would be similar if they are serious.
The name of the game is power.
The South is a normal country. There is no need for D'Hondt. There is just power.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 13, 2020, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
They'd  also be blamed by many for not being adult enough to do a deal to form a Government.

We've disagreed plenty but I think you've nailed it there. That's FF/FG's plan. The numbers don't add up but they'll still be believed by many when they spout this line.

No one wants an election though so I hope they act like adults and get on with it in the end.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 13, 2020, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
They'd  also be blamed by many for not being adult enough to do a deal to form a Government.

We've disagreed plenty but I think you've nailed it there. That's FF/FG's plan. The numbers don't add up but they'll still be believed by many when they spout this line.

No one wants an election though so I hope they act like adults and get on with it in the end.

The people are fed up with FF and FG, they will not listen to such nonsense from them even if they get RTE and Indo etc to shout it out. People are seeing through this propaganda from the establishment. A 2nd election will be very bad for FF and FG but especially FF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:29:55 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 13, 2020, 12:24:59 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
Nope. SF would be the big winners in that scenario, they'd have a better picture of how many candidates they can run. FF and FG would lose seats and SF would pick them up.

Sf transfers did not go to FG or FF, in general. They will take the seats off those elected on those transfers. They'd end up with 44 or 45, while still needing 81.

Quite a few FF candidates got in on the last place, they may not be picking up a huge amount of transfers but they are picking up a significant amount. If a guy is getting in with 5-10k surplus like in some places a FF or FG candidate may be getting 500 to 800 transfers. That potentially could go, you can look yourself and see how tight some of the FF TDs were to not getting in.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 09:37:30 AM
The mask has slipped with FF. Apart from dinosaurs over the ages of 60 they have no voter base, people will remember the impacts the crash caused by them has had and they are dying as a party. Younger people now are a lot wiser than to be brainwashed by the establishment media and state broadcaster, the extremes they went to with the Paul Quinn coverage only seemed to galvanize the SF vote, if the establishment media and RTE would only show enough vigour and appetite to pursue the white collar criminals who have actually caused genuine hardship for the citizens of the state then it might be doing its duty.

The bottom line is cases like Paul Quinn and other cases linked to the IRA, as barbaric as some of them have been, one side of these stories is only heard. The Paul Quinn case has no impact on the majority of the citizens in the state, the widespread institutional corruption, incompetence and negligence presided over by the establishment parties has had a wide ranging and in many cases, tragic impact on a huge proportion of the state's citizens.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Taylor on February 13, 2020, 09:38:42 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Prior to the election and indeed since it how much exposure has that poor woman got?

It was shocking how they exploited the families grief
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 13, 2020, 09:57:40 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 13, 2020, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
They'd  also be blamed by many for not being adult enough to do a deal to form a Government.

We've disagreed plenty but I think you've nailed it there. That's FF/FG's plan. The numbers don't add up but they'll still be believed by many when they spout this line.

No one wants an election though so I hope they act like adults and get on with it in the end.
That's the obvious plan to blame Sinn Fein but it's not working is it? not since Sinn Fein have been on the front foot post election and are being perceived as the party who wants do a deal . However FG and FF said they would not share with SF. How do you think it can be conjured by FF and FG that it's Sinn Fein's fault for not convincing them to do a coalition deal  when they (FF &FG) both publicly claimed they would not do?

It's being set up for a FF+FG+GP coalition.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 13, 2020, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 09:37:30 AM
The bottom line is cases like Paul Quinn and other cases linked to the IRA, as barbaric as some of them have been, one side of these stories is only heard.

Ok, let's hear what the perpetrators have to say for themselves. The floor is open...
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:14:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:53:30 AM
SF will source some unknown card candidates(if they are not on hols). They would be returned with a bigger majority. The smaller parties would be wiped out as there is no such thing as a coalition of the left. The transfer advice was designed to keep FF/FG out not get lefties in. SF ARE NOT A LEFT WING PARTY.
FF can be left wing or right wing depending on the mojo of the people.
SF  would be similar if they are serious.
The name of the game is power.
The South is a normal country. There is no need for D'Hondt. There is just power.

Agreed
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 13, 2020, 10:18:56 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 13, 2020, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
They'd  also be blamed by many for not being adult enough to do a deal to form a Government.

We've disagreed plenty but I think you've nailed it there. That's FF/FG's plan. The numbers don't add up but they'll still be believed by many when they spout this line.

No one wants an election though so I hope they act like adults and get on with it in the end.

The people are fed up with FF and FG, they will not listen to such nonsense from them even if they get RTE and Indo etc to shout it out. People are seeing through this propaganda from the establishment. A 2nd election will be very bad for FF and FG but especially FF.

Hope 'the people' are quick enough to see through SF propaganda and their voodoo economics or the Monster Raving Green Loony Party who seemingly want to return us to Year Zero.

Wasn't there a woman on Joe Duffy the other day who said as much, she had no interest in any of the political parties, but will vote next time for SF. When asked, she said she hadn't voted in 15 years. What right does she have to talk about anything to do with the governance of this country when she won't partake in the process?

I'm fed up with people being fed up with politics. Have we become such a cossetted snowflake population that we expect to have everything handed to us on a plate? No political party or coalition can deliver us the kind of social utopia that some think we are entitled to. I wish as a nation everyone would take a little bit more responsibility for their well-being and progress and not to be hanging all personal ills on the state. Have we become an 'over-woke' generation, too sensitive to every transient flavour-of-the-month issue?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:22:32 AM
Quote from: five points on February 13, 2020, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 09:37:30 AM
The bottom line is cases like Paul Quinn and other cases linked to the IRA, as barbaric as some of them have been, one side of these stories is only heard.

Ok, let's hear what the perpetrators have to say for themselves. The floor is open...

Yeah, id love to hear it too.  ffs-trying to justify any murder with "one side of the story comments"
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: five points on February 13, 2020, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 09:37:30 AM
The bottom line is cases like Paul Quinn and other cases linked to the IRA, as barbaric as some of them have been, one side of these stories is only heard.

Ok, let's hear what the perpetrators have to say for themselves. The floor is open...

Not the perpetrators.

It's ill to speak of the dead but there's plenty of people around Cullyhanna and its environs who would have lived in fear because of guys like Paul Quinn and his gang.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 10:28:36 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:22:32 AM
Quote from: five points on February 13, 2020, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 09:37:30 AM
The bottom line is cases like Paul Quinn and other cases linked to the IRA, as barbaric as some of them have been, one side of these stories is only heard.

Ok, let's hear what the perpetrators have to say for themselves. The floor is open...

Yeah, id love to hear it too.  ffs-trying to justify any murder with "one side of the story comments"

Because it is one side of the story.

Is there ever focus of the victim himself and what he was up to? Do you really believe that punching a lad in a bar was the sole reason for such a savage death? Doesn't justify it but it does add context and balance to something that has been simplified and distorted.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 13, 2020, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 10:26:24 AM

Not the perpetrators.

It's ill to speak of the dead but there's plenty of people around Cullyhanna and its environs who would have lived in fear because of guys like Paul Quinn and his gang.

If the perpetrators have a good excuse, let's hear them. Better from the organ grinder than the monkey.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 10:45:44 AM
Quote from: five points on February 13, 2020, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 10:26:24 AM

Not the perpetrators.

It's ill to speak of the dead but there's plenty of people around Cullyhanna and its environs who would have lived in fear because of guys like Paul Quinn and his gang.

If the perpetrators have a good excuse, let's hear them. Better from the organ grinder than the monkey.

The stories I heard at the time included assaults, burglary, arson and car jackings.

There was one I heard of a serious assault on a taxi driver who tried to intervene when a girl was being attacked by a female in the company of Quinn and his gang. He got a bad doing and was further subjected to a campaign of intimidation by that group.

The bottom line is that when you play with fire you get burned.

I don't condone what happened to Paul Quinn, I don't know for sure the motives behind it - none of us do - but there is plenty to suggest out there that the story being ran with by the media is half a story.

The reporting of the case at the time it happened largely fed to a feud between rival criminal gangs and the stories I've heard about Quinn would tend to paint him as wild young man who didn't really care about the consequences of his actions.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 10:54:11 AM
Mattie McGrath for Tánaiste!!!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/mary-lou-mcdonald-contacts-micheal-martin-for-government-formation-talks-981474.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
Quote from: mouview on February 13, 2020, 10:18:56 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 13, 2020, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
They'd  also be blamed by many for not being adult enough to do a deal to form a Government.

We've disagreed plenty but I think you've nailed it there. That's FF/FG's plan. The numbers don't add up but they'll still be believed by many when they spout this line.

No one wants an election though so I hope they act like adults and get on with it in the end.

The people are fed up with FF and FG, they will not listen to such nonsense from them even if they get RTE and Indo etc to shout it out. People are seeing through this propaganda from the establishment. A 2nd election will be very bad for FF and FG but especially FF.

Hope 'the people' are quick enough to see through SF propaganda and their voodoo economics or the Monster Raving Green Loony Party who seemingly want to return us to Year Zero.

Wasn't there a woman on Joe Duffy the other day who said as much, she had no interest in any of the political parties, but will vote next time for SF. When asked, she said she hadn't voted in 15 years. What right does she have to talk about anything to do with the governance of this country when she won't partake in the process?

I'm fed up with people being fed up with politics. Have we become such a cossetted snowflake population that we expect to have everything handed to us on a plate? No political party or coalition can deliver us the kind of social utopia that some think we are entitled to. I wish as a nation everyone would take a little bit more responsibility for their well-being and progress and not to be hanging all personal ills on the state. Have we become an 'over-woke' generation, too sensitive to every transient flavour-of-the-month issue?

Ah the woman on Joe Duffy, thats what we call an outlier in statistics because if you have crazies running around thats where they end up getting a platform.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?

Murphy never excused the murder.

Your shrieking comes across as staged, did you ever consider the theatre?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?

Murphy never excused the murder.

Your shrieking comes across as staged, did you ever consider the theatre?

Everyone knows that Murphy knows who was in charge in Cullyhanna. You know that is true, you will not admit it though. He qualified the killing by saying that Quinn was a criminal.

Come back to me in 5 years(maybe longer for you-slow learner) when you have worked it all out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?

Murphy never excused the murder.

Your shrieking comes across as staged, did you ever consider the theatre?

Everyone knows that Murphy knows who was in charge in Cullyhanna. You know that is true, you will not admit it though. He qualified the killing by saying that Quinn was a criminal.

Come back to me in 5 years(maybe longer for you-slow learner) when you have worked it all out.

It was stated by intelligence agencies that Quinn was believed to involved in criminal activity. He didn't excuse the killing, he denied there was any IRA involvement. I did not once hear him qualify the killing or excuse it as you're saying.

Only half the story is being reported in the media though. There is plenty of local knowledge of the type of person Quinn was and the type of activities he was involved in. That doesn't excuse, justify or diminish the barbaric way his life ended but it does add context.

Is there ever the same outrage when a person "known to police" is murdered, sometimes brutally?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?

Murphy never excused the murder.

Your shrieking comes across as staged, did you ever consider the theatre?

Everyone knows that Murphy knows who was in charge in Cullyhanna. You know that is true, you will not admit it though. He qualified the killing by saying that Quinn was a criminal.

Come back to me in 5 years(maybe longer for you-slow learner) when you have worked it all out.

It was stated by intelligence agencies that Quinn was believed to involved in criminal activity. He didn't excuse the killing, he denied there was any IRA involvement. I did not once hear him qualify the killing or excuse it as you're saying.

Only half the story is being reported in the media though. There is plenty of local knowledge of the type of person Quinn was and the type of activities he was involved in. That doesn't excuse, justify or diminish the barbaric way his life ended but it does add context.

Is there ever the same outrage when a person "known to police" is murdered, sometimes brutally?

Usually the perpetrators are not linked to a political party
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 01:34:02 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?

Murphy never excused the murder.

Your shrieking comes across as staged, did you ever consider the theatre?

Everyone knows that Murphy knows who was in charge in Cullyhanna. You know that is true, you will not admit it though. He qualified the killing by saying that Quinn was a criminal.

Come back to me in 5 years(maybe longer for you-slow learner) when you have worked it all out.

It was stated by intelligence agencies that Quinn was believed to involved in criminal activity. He didn't excuse the killing, he denied there was any IRA involvement. I did not once hear him qualify the killing or excuse it as you're saying.

Only half the story is being reported in the media though. There is plenty of local knowledge of the type of person Quinn was and the type of activities he was involved in. That doesn't excuse, justify or diminish the barbaric way his life ended but it does add context.

Is there ever the same outrage when a person "known to police" is murdered, sometimes brutally?

Usually the perpetrators are not linked to a political party

Are they not?

I don't think that's the issue here.

The issue seems to be that Conor Murphy said Quinn was involved in criminal activity, a claim that was also made by intelligence agencies.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 01:41:34 PM
Look everyone knows it was a set up to throw this Quinn case at Mary Lou live on TV. Same tactic was used on Sean Gallagher when he ran for president. If people cannot see that then they probably just dont want to see what is right i front of them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 01:41:34 PM
Look everyone knows it was a set up to throw this Quinn case at Mary Lou live on TV. Same tactic was used on Sean Gallagher when he ran for president. If people cannot see that then they probably just dont want to see what is right i front of them.

Austin Stack, Mairia Cahill etc

It's strange that we never hear about the victims of the Stardust fire still awaiting justice. The Butterly family who owned the venue were big donors to FF and had close links to Charlie Haughey.

We also hear little of the Mary Boyle case, a 6 year old girl believed to have been abused and killed by a person known to her. There is multiple allegations from Gardai who worked on the case that a prominent FF politician in the area interfered in the investigation and stopped the prime suspect being questioned.

We don't hear much about the priest murdered in the midlands after a wedding, again the main suspects had close links to FF with a FF TD in attendance on the night of. A family friend of the main suspect handled the case and gave a not guilty verdict back.

The lack of appetite to solve the Dublin Monaghan bombings etc etc.

No outrage there though.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 02:49:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 01:41:34 PM
Look everyone knows it was a set up to throw this Quinn case at Mary Lou live on TV. Same tactic was used on Sean Gallagher when he ran for president. If people cannot see that then they probably just dont want to see what is right i front of them.

Austin Stack, Mairia Cahill etc

It's strange that we never hear about the victims of the Stardust fire still awaiting justice. The Butterly family who owned the venue were big donors to FF and had close links to Charlie Haughey.

We also hear little of the Mary Boyle case, a 6 year old girl believed to have been abused and killed by a person known to her. There is multiple allegations from Gardai who worked on the case that a prominent FF politician in the area interfered in the investigation and stopped the prime suspect being questioned.

We don't hear much about the priest murdered in the midlands after a wedding, again the main suspects had close links to FF with a FF TD in attendance on the night of. A family friend of the main suspect handled the case and gave a not guilty verdict back.

The lack of appetite to solve the Dublin Monaghan bombings etc etc.

No outrage there though.

Such a bad and inaccurate post
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eire90 on February 13, 2020, 02:51:47 PM
whats this talk about free houses so will everyone be giving a free house and where are the being built is it only dublin.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 13, 2020, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 01:41:34 PM
Look everyone knows it was a set up to throw this Quinn case at Mary Lou live on TV. Same tactic was used on Sean Gallagher when he ran for president. If people cannot see that then they probably just dont want to see what is right i front of them.

Austin Stack, Mairia Cahill etc

It's strange that we never hear about the victims of the Stardust fire still awaiting justice. The Butterly family who owned the venue were big donors to FF and had close links to Charlie Haughey.

We also hear little of the Mary Boyle case, a 6 year old girl believed to have been abused and killed by a person known to her. There is multiple allegations from Gardai who worked on the case that a prominent FF politician in the area interfered in the investigation and stopped the prime suspect being questioned.

We don't hear much about the priest murdered in the midlands after a wedding, again the main suspects had close links to FF with a FF TD in attendance on the night of. A family friend of the main suspect handled the case and gave a not guilty verdict back.

The lack of appetite to solve the Dublin Monaghan bombings etc etc.

No outrage there though.
Excellent post.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?

No harm to you, but you are full of shit. Come down from your castle for a second. How did SF create the "slur" when it was based on the opinions of the security/intelligence services which was published for public consumption by the Independent Monitoring Commission. And since the IMC published the same claim, does that mean they too were "excusing" the murder? Or is that just the sort of political point scoring stoop bullsh1t you like to attach to Conor Murphy?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 13, 2020, 04:04:07 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 03:52:42 PM
No harm to you, but you are full of shit. Come down from your castle for a second. How did SF create the "slur" when it was based on the opinions of the security/intelligence services which was published for public consumption by the Independent Monitoring Commission. And since the IMC published the same claim, does that mean they too were "excusing" the murder? Or is that just the sort of political point scoring stoop bullsh1t you like to attach to Conor Murphy?

The Shinners once mocked the IMC as 'three spooks and a lord'. Now apparently their word is gospel. ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 04:07:28 PM
Quote from: five points on February 13, 2020, 04:04:07 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 03:52:42 PM
No harm to you, but you are full of shit. Come down from your castle for a second. How did SF create the "slur" when it was based on the opinions of the security/intelligence services which was published for public consumption by the Independent Monitoring Commission. And since the IMC published the same claim, does that mean they too were "excusing" the murder? Or is that just the sort of political point scoring stoop bullsh1t you like to attach to Conor Murphy?

The Shinners once mocked the IMC as 'three spooks and a lord'. Now apparently their word is gospel. ::)

Lol. I was just about to type that. Ó Snodaigh wasn't a fan
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 04:09:32 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse

1. Cop yourself on. Breege Quinn has been campaigning for 13 years. Only last month did FG/FF/RTE etc show an interest in her.
2. SF didn't 'create' what you are calling a "lie/slur". Conor Murphy only said what was in the intelligence reports, including what was published by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

You must have misread what I wrote. I said FF/FG have jumped on story, but RTE in fact have been reporting on this for years(albeit with less intensity)
Of course SF created the slur-where have you been?
To make matters worse they never withdrew it despite many calls from Quinns!  And low and behold once an election comes along, Murphy gives a half hearted retraction-Now how is that any different in terms of political gamemanship  than what we seen from other parties.

And anyhow why jesus christ oh why would Murphy stand up and excuse a murder in the first place just because he might have been a smuggler or whatever. You really need to look at yourself lad. Shameful.

What kind of country do we want to live in?

No harm to you, but you are full of shit. Come down from your castle for a second. How did SF create the "slur" when it was based on the opinions of the security/intelligence services which was published for public consumption by the Independent Monitoring Commission. And since the IMC published the same claim, does that mean they too were "excusing" the murder? Or is that just the sort of political point scoring stoop bullsh1t you like to attach to Conor Murphy?

You are brainwashed sur. Plus I am not an SDLP voter, I don't know where you got that. im a republican, just not a furry white one which shite hanging from my arse.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on February 13, 2020, 04:16:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2020, 10:17:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 12, 2020, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 12, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
But they will still be ministers. All continue in their caretaker role, including Leo as caretaker Taoiseach, until a new government is formed. Technically he could be Taoiseach for many months including as Hound said the visit to the White House on St. Paddy's Day. Indeed, if there is a new election later if no gov can be formed, he could go to the country slightly more popular than he was in February and come back with the most number of seats. Stranger things have happened.

Another election could see both FF and FG pick up seats.
They would have refined their manifestos and would have a right go at SF's fairytale.

See that is pure rubbish! Have a right go? what do you think they did in this election. They got every media outlet in the country to attack SF, they dragged up a 13 year old murder case and manipulated a grieving mother to further their goals. And they still failed and if SF ran in an election tomorrow they could take another 6 or 7 seats. You clearly have a hatred of SF, that's fair enough, but you are talking total garbage there - the kitchen sink was already thrown at SF and it failed and done nothing but drive people towards them.

Breege Quinn raised the story, still no apology

Breege Quinn has raised the story for 13 years, it got on front pages and into debates last week! If you think that is some sort of accident then there is nothing I can do for you.

Out of the 3 parties involved in this we have SF,FF,FG

FF/FG jumped on the bandwagon for political gain-crass and shallow

SF created a lie/slur about the family and defended it. They also clearly could have done more at the time to bring killers to justice.

Both bad, but you know which is worse
The view in South Armagh would be a bit different.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 04:26:28 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 04:07:28 PM
Quote from: five points on February 13, 2020, 04:04:07 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 13, 2020, 03:52:42 PM
No harm to you, but you are full of shit. Come down from your castle for a second. How did SF create the "slur" when it was based on the opinions of the security/intelligence services which was published for public consumption by the Independent Monitoring Commission. And since the IMC published the same claim, does that mean they too were "excusing" the murder? Or is that just the sort of political point scoring stoop bullsh1t you like to attach to Conor Murphy?

The Shinners once mocked the IMC as 'three spooks and a lord'. Now apparently their word is gospel. ::)

Lol. I was just about to type that. Ó Snodaigh wasn't a fan

The discussion isn't about the accuracy of the IMC report. The point is (and I think you know this, but are just desperately trying to dodge), is that they (the IMC) made the claim in the first instance. So Conor Murphy did not create it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 04:44:47 PM
Back on subject FF decide not to have talks with SF about Government formation.
They will talk to others though.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 05:40:29 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fianna-f%C3%A1il-must-form-government-and-not-stand-on-sidelines-says-martin-1.4172671
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 05:57:43 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 02:49:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 13, 2020, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 01:41:34 PM
Look everyone knows it was a set up to throw this Quinn case at Mary Lou live on TV. Same tactic was used on Sean Gallagher when he ran for president. If people cannot see that then they probably just dont want to see what is right i front of them.

Austin Stack, Mairia Cahill etc

It's strange that we never hear about the victims of the Stardust fire still awaiting justice. The Butterly family who owned the venue were big donors to FF and had close links to Charlie Haughey.

We also hear little of the Mary Boyle case, a 6 year old girl believed to have been abused and killed by a person known to her. There is multiple allegations from Gardai who worked on the case that a prominent FF politician in the area interfered in the investigation and stopped the prime suspect being questioned.

We don't hear much about the priest murdered in the midlands after a wedding, again the main suspects had close links to FF with a FF TD in attendance on the night of. A family friend of the main suspect handled the case and gave a not guilty verdict back.

The lack of appetite to solve the Dublin Monaghan bombings etc etc.

No outrage there though.

Such a bad and inaccurate post

Bad and inaccurate because it shows up the double standards?

Why has the Mary Boyle case being buried by mainstream media for years when her sister has being doing all she could to get it the attention she deserves, where Gardai who worked on the case have alleged that politicians became involved to pervert the cause of justice. It's a national scandal but can't get any traction in the media.

The Stardust Fire and Dublin Monaghan bombings were two of the biggest tragedies and loss of life that the state experienced and nobody has ever been brought to justice on either case. There are some very unnerving facts in both incidents that point to state intervention in stopping the victims family getting any sort of justice for their loved ones.

But that doesn't sit in with your staged shrieking.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 04:44:47 PM
Back on subject FF decide not to have talks with SF about Government formation.
They will talk to others though.

They could probably put smacht on SF in Government though.
FFG would be more risky for them. SF outside the tent pissing in

There are no simple solutions. House prices have to come down but owners won't agree. That is the problem with asset bubbles.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 13, 2020, 08:25:01 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 13, 2020, 06:57:46 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 13, 2020, 12:30:15 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 13, 2020, 12:24:59 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:43 PM
Nope. SF would be the big winners in that scenario, they'd have a better picture of how many candidates they can run. FF and FG would lose seats and SF would pick them up.

Sf transfers did not go to FG or FF, in general. They will take the seats off those elected on those transfers. They'd end up with 44 or 45, while still needing 81.
In another election, SF transfers would go to the extra SF candidates that they now know they could have had running.

Thats exactly what he said.

Ah, I misread him. Sorry.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 13, 2020, 08:51:03 PM
Probably unique  that both  FG and FF admit they are ideologically screwed and haven't any positivity about their ability to make inroads into the issues most people are concerned about. They both want time out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on February 13, 2020, 09:19:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 04:44:47 PM
Back on subject FF decide not to have talks with SF about Government formation.
They will talk to others though.

They could probably put smacht on SF in Government though.
FFG would be more risky for them. SF outside the tent pissing in

There are no simple solutions. House prices have to come down but owners won't agree. That is the problem with asset bubbles.
It's a shortage of supply issue

Cannot see houses dropping in price for 4-5 years plus

A huge issue is the distances people are having to travel for work.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Aaron Boone on February 13, 2020, 09:44:21 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 13, 2020, 09:19:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 04:44:47 PM
Back on subject FF decide not to have talks with SF about Government formation.
They will talk to others though.

They could probably put smacht on SF in Government though.
FFG would be more risky for them. SF outside the tent pissing in

There are no simple solutions. House prices have to come down but owners won't agree. That is the problem with asset bubbles.
It's a shortage of supply issue

Cannot see houses dropping in price for 4-5 years plus

A huge issue is the distances people are having to travel for work.
Dublin yes. Cork, Limerick etc?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 13, 2020, 10:18:55 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 13, 2020, 09:19:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 13, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 04:44:47 PM
Back on subject FF decide not to have talks with SF about Government formation.
They will talk to others though.

They could probably put smacht on SF in Government though.
FFG would be more risky for them. SF outside the tent pissing in

There are no simple solutions. House prices have to come down but owners won't agree. That is the problem with asset bubbles.
It's a shortage of supply issue

Cannot see houses dropping in price for 4-5 years plus

A huge issue is the distances people are having to travel for work.

House prices dropped in 2019
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.

So yes, they are certainly different.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 14, 2020, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.

So yes, they are certainly different.

If Shinners want to score points they should focus on economic issues rather than Mary Boyle.
FF blew up the economy in 2009
FG caused the housing crisis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 14, 2020, 08:49:02 AM
The irony... Mícheál Martin wants to keep SF out of Government to stop them "destroying the Country".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 14, 2020, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.

So yes, they are certainly different.

If Shinners want to score points they should focus on economic issues rather than Mary Boyle.
FF blew up the economy in 2009
FG caused the housing crisis.

It's not a case of scoring points. SF never tried to shoehorn Mary Boyle in as an election issue - it just shows how low FG/FF and the establishment will sink.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 14, 2020, 09:43:38 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal.

Maybe it's a best case for Sinn Féin that people are discussing the latter.   

If some in media listened to the Quinns or looked back over media in the last 13 years they might draw a very different conclusion about the former.

/Jim.



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 09:50:44 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.


So yes, they are certainly different.

Totally unproven. And in an era when several Taoisigh had their political careers blighted or prematurely ended by Garda scandals, the idea that a mickey mouse councillor and failed MEP candidate in Donegal could have bullied the Gardai into covering up the murder of a child and gotten away with it for 30+ years doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 14, 2020, 10:03:27 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/stephen-collins-ff-and-fg-have-duty-to-form-government-1.4172829

For a start, the policy differences between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil on fundamental economic issues are minimal and amount to differences of emphasis more than anything else. Even a cursory analysis of their election manifestos shows how close they are.
Both parties have suffered a loss of seats but that is no reason to walk off the pitch and hand power to people they believe will wreck the economy and damage our international standing

Of course opposition looks like an attractive option to politicians who have suffered a severe rebuff for having done what most outside observers would regard as a reasonably good job running the country for the past four years but walking away from their responsibilities would be far worse.

The main objection both parties have is that it would allow Sinn Féin to build even further in opposition and be in a position to come to power with its left-wing allies after the next election. That is a risk worth taking given that the future is impossible to predict

https://www.ft.com/content/26a7a74e-4d8a-11ea-95a0-43d18ec715f5

According to an exit poll published on Saturday, some 63 per cent of voters said they did not feel they had benefited from an improvement in the economy.

The housing shortage is a particular concern, especially among the under-35s. A recent study by the Central Bank of Ireland showed that only one new dwelling was built for every seven additional people in the population between 2011 and 2019. Rents have increased by 40 per cent in the past five years, while average earnings have grown by just 14 per cent
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 10:16:57 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 14, 2020, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.

So yes, they are certainly different.

If Shinners want to score points they should focus on economic issues rather than Mary Boyle.
FF blew up the economy in 2009
FG caused the housing crisis.

It's not a case of scoring points. SF never tried to shoehorn Mary Boyle in as an election issue - it just shows how low FG/FF and the establishment will sink.

The Boyles have not been asking FF for answers for the last 45 years. Bury your argument its ridiculous at this stage. Baa Baa Baa. I am a robot lol
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 14, 2020, 10:48:40 AM
Whataboutery!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 14, 2020, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 14, 2020, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.

So yes, they are certainly different.

If Shinners want to score points they should focus on economic issues rather than Mary Boyle.
FF blew up the economy in 2009
FG caused the housing crisis.

The "shinners" never brought up Mary Boyle. I was simply demonstrating the media bias towards FF and FG, nothing else.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 14, 2020, 11:16:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 10:16:57 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 14, 2020, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.

So yes, they are certainly different.

If Shinners want to score points they should focus on economic issues rather than Mary Boyle.
FF blew up the economy in 2009
FG caused the housing crisis.

It's not a case of scoring points. SF never tried to shoehorn Mary Boyle in as an election issue - it just shows how low FG/FF and the establishment will sink.

The Boyles have not been asking FF for answers for the last 45 years. Bury your argument its ridiculous at this stage. Baa Baa Baa. I am a robot lol

Reluctant as I am to step into this. This isn't true.

Mary Boyle was six when she disappeared from her grandparents' home outside Ballyshannon in Co Donegal, on March 18th, 1977. Hers is Ireland's longest-running missing-child case, and she has been described in the Guardian as "Ireland's Madeleine McCann".

Her twin, Ann Doherty, who has travelled to Stormont, Westminster, Brussels and Washington DC in her campaign, has been accompanied over the past two years by journalist Gemma O'Doherty.

On April 26th they met Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin for almost two hours in Leinster House. He was accompanied by one of the party's new TDs, barrister Jim O'Callaghan. They were also accompanied by Margo O'Donnell, sister of the singer Daniel.

Ann says she and her family know who killed Mary. She says the man, who is alive still, was well known to her and her twin. She says during the course of the 1977 investigation that a politician called the investigating gardaí and told them not to arrest or further question the chief suspect. She says her faith in the gardaí to bring the case to a truthful conclusion is gone.

Ann, Margo and Gemma urged Martin to initiate a Dáil debate on the serious allegations about the Garda handling of the case, and to support their call for an inquest into Mary's death.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 14, 2020, 11:16:54 AM

Reluctant as I am to step into this. This isn't true.

Mary Boyle was six when she disappeared from her grandparents' home outside Ballyshannon in Co Donegal, on March 18th, 1977. Hers is Ireland's longest-running missing-child case, and she has been described in the Guardian as "Ireland's Madeleine McCann".

Her twin, Ann Doherty, who has travelled to Stormont, Westminster, Brussels and Washington DC in her campaign, has been accompanied over the past two years by journalist Gemma O'Doherty.

On April 26th they met Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin for almost two hours in Leinster House. He was accompanied by one of the party's new TDs, barrister Jim O'Callaghan. They were also accompanied by Margo O'Donnell, sister of the singer Daniel.

Ann says she and her family know who killed Mary. She says the man, who is alive still, was well known to her and her twin. She says during the course of the 1977 investigation that a politician called the investigating gardaí and told them not to arrest or further question the chief suspect. She says her faith in the gardaí to bring the case to a truthful conclusion is gone.

Ann, Margo and Gemma urged Martin to initiate a Dáil debate on the serious allegations about the Garda handling of the case, and to support their call for an inquest into Mary's death.


It's this bit that doesn't make sense. Not in a country that had a cottage industry of Garda scandal journalism for years. Did Gene Kerrigan, Vincent Browne, Veronica Guerin, Joe Joyce, Derek Dunne, Peter Murtagh and their colleagues and rivals all miss the biggest and most explosive story of all? I don't buy it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 11:27:24 AM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 09:50:44 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 13, 2020, 06:21:11 PM
I wonder if the suspect in the mary boyle case was a Sinn Fein member would the media still ignore it. What di you think lads?

RTÉ produced a documentary on it. And I don't even see comparison between the cases other than 2 innocent people were murdered brutally

That's true. The quinn murder was not carried out by a sinn fein member but one member suggested Quinn was a criminal. That's case mo 1.

In case no 2 a FF representative covered up the kidnap and murder of a small child.


So yes, they are certainly different.

Totally unproven. And in an era when several Taoisigh had their political careers blighted or prematurely ended by Garda scandals, the idea that a mickey mouse councillor and failed MEP candidate in Donegal could have bullied the Gardai into covering up the murder of a child and gotten away with it for 30+ years doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.

There is no proof who killed Paul Quinn or why.

Multiple members of the Gardai who investigated the Mary Boyle disappearance have alleged that a FF politician interfered in the case and stopped them from questioning the prime suspect who they believed was close to confessing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 14, 2020, 11:28:07 AM
Gemma Doherty!? That hardly strengthens the case...
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 11:39:10 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 11:27:24 AM
Multiple members of the Gardai who investigated the Mary Boyle disappearance have alleged that a FF politician interfered in the case and stopped them from questioning the prime suspect who they believed was close to confessing.

But if that's true, why did the story lie hidden for 40 years during which the country was literally transfixed at various stages by a long list of Garda corruption and political influence scandals?

The idea that Gene Kerrigan, Vincent Browne, Veronica Guerin et al were all afraid of a mickey mouse councillor in Bundoran is laughable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 14, 2020, 11:42:22 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 14, 2020, 11:28:07 AM
Gemma Doherty!? That hardly strengthens the case...

I'm not commenting on the case or what happened in it. But it's a lie to say that Mary Boyle's family haven't been asking questions of FF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 11:39:10 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 11:27:24 AM
Multiple members of the Gardai who investigated the Mary Boyle disappearance have alleged that a FF politician interfered in the case and stopped them from questioning the prime suspect who they believed was close to confessing.

But if that's true, why did the story lie hidden for 40 years during which the country was literally transfixed at various stages by a long list of Garda corruption and political influence scandals?

The idea that Gene Kerrigan, Vincent Browne, Veronica Guerin et al were all afraid of a mickey mouse councillor in Bundoran is laughable.


The Mickey Mouse councillor in Bundoran was also an extremely wealthy and well connected businessman.

There was no appetite to solve the case by any of the establishment branches. We saw it with the Stardust fire, Dublin Monaghan bombings, the priest murdered in Offaly etc.

I think you're clutching at straws trying to defend those cases.



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:23:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 12:43:04 PM

The Mickey Mouse councillor in Bundoran was also an extremely wealthy and well connected businessman.

There was no appetite to solve the case by any of the establishment branches. We saw it with the Stardust fire, Dublin Monaghan bombings, the priest murdered in Offaly etc.

I think you're clutching at straws trying to defend those cases.

The contrast with the Stardust fire, the Dublin & Monaghan bombings, the Fr Niall Molloy case, the Dowra affair, the Shercock case, the Richie Barron case, the Maurice McCabe case, the Derek Fairbrother case, the Kerry Babies case and countless others is palpable.

Each got massive publicity, media coverage and investigation from a coterie of talented investigative journalists who sometimes worked together and sometimes were in fierce competition with each other. Over years and years. Most of these stories  were compelling enough for books to be written about them; many were best sellers.

We're now supposed to believe that they all missed the biggest one of all - because of a Mickey Mouse councillor in Bundoran who was also "an extremely wealthy and well connected businessman."

It doesn't make an ounce of sense, sorry.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: J70 on February 14, 2020, 01:33:25 PM
Sean McEniff's estate is still suing O'Doherty for defamation.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:08 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:23:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 12:43:04 PM

The Mickey Mouse councillor in Bundoran was also an extremely wealthy and well connected businessman.

There was no appetite to solve the case by any of the establishment branches. We saw it with the Stardust fire, Dublin Monaghan bombings, the priest murdered in Offaly etc.

I think you're clutching at straws trying to defend those cases.

The contrast with the Stardust fire, the Dublin & Monaghan bombings, the Fr Niall Molloy case, the Dowra affair, the Shercock case, the Richie Barron case, the Maurice McCabe case, the Derek Fairbrother case, the Kerry Babies case and countless others is palpable.

Each got massive publicity, media coverage and investigation from a coterie of talented investigative journalists who sometimes worked together and sometimes were in fierce competition with each other.

We're now supposed to believe that they all missed the biggest one of all - because of a Mickey Mouse councillor in Bundoran who was also "an extremely wealthy and well connected businessman."

It doesn't make an ounce of sense, sorry.

No they didn't.

The Stardust Fire is one of the biggest injustices to happen in the state. Hardly a dickeybird about it in the past decade.

The Dublin Monaghan bombings, all the signs are that the Free State government were fully aware that British intelligence had its finger prints all over it and they quelled any sort of investigation of this. These were incidents of mass losses of life, one through negligence, one through murder which had British intelligence all over it and the question marks of state interference in these cases have never been brought to task, the victims families have never got their justice and these cases have unquestionably been neglected by the media in this country.

There is no appetite for investigation here.

Gemma O'Doherty might be a crackpot now but there was one time when she was a respected investigative journalist and look at how she was sidelined when she pursued Garda corruption. Look at how a disgusting smear campaign was allowed develop and spread against a garda whistleblower with full knowledge of the higher echelons of the Gardai and the government minister.

It's a rotten state but your staged outrage is quite easily exposed. There is no appetite to tackle the heinous acts covered up by the establishment parties in the 26.

How many of those victims got justice?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 14, 2020, 01:33:25 PM
Sean McEniff's estate is still suing O'Doherty for defamation.

What does that say?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: J70 on February 14, 2020, 01:42:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 14, 2020, 01:33:25 PM
Sean McEniff's estate is still suing O'Doherty for defamation.

What does that say?

That he, when he was alive, and his estate, are publicly challenging and rejecting her thinly-veiled accusation?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:08 PM

The Stardust Fire is one of the biggest injustices to happen in the state. Hardly a dickeybird about it in the past decade.
Maybe you're too young.

It was one of the biggest stories of the 80s.  Christy Moore wrote a song about it. There was a Tribunal. But before even that there was a forest of writing about it, including books.

Ditto but to lesser extent the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

There wasn't a dickybird about Mary Boyle - from an investigative journalist class that were (usually correctly) gunning for the Gardai and the authorities that interacted with them.


Quote
It's a rotten state but your staged outrage is quite easily exposed.
I'm not in the slightest bit outraged here. I think you may be.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:08 PM
Gemma O'Doherty might be a crackpot now but there was one time when she was a respected investigative journalist

Whenever that time was, it was very short.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:08 PM

The Stardust Fire is one of the biggest injustices to happen in the state. Hardly a dickeybird about it in the past decade.
Maybe you're too young.

It was one of the biggest stories of the 80s.  Christy Moore wrote a song about it. There was a Tribunal. But before even that there was a forest of writing about it, including books.

Ditto but to lesser extent the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

There wasn't a dickybird about Mary Boyle - from an investigative journalist class that were (usually correctly) gunning for the Gardai and the authorities that interacted with them.


Quote
It's a rotten state but your staged outrage is quite easily exposed.
I'm not in the slightest bit outraged here. I think you may be.

I'm not too young.

It's a complete fabrication what you are saying, it blew over quite quickly and the state and the media in the state have long since tried to bury the fact that neither the families of the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan and Dublin/Monaghan bodies. Neither FF or FG have pursued these cases, have pursued the culprits because they are too closely tied with and the media in the 26 have been an absolute disgrace in pursuing justice here, utterly shameless.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 02:32:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:21:56 PM

I'm not too young.

It's a complete fabrication what you are saying, it blew over quite quickly and the state and the media in the state have long since tried to bury the fact that neither the families of the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan and Dublin/Monaghan bodies. Neither FF or FG have pursued these cases, have pursued the culprits because they are too closely tied with and the media in the 26 have been an absolute disgrace in pursuing justice here, utterly shameless.

So, its a complete fabrication that journalists like Gene Kerrigan, Vincent Browne, Veronica Guerin, Joe Joyce, Derek Dunne and Peter Murtagh investigated a series of scandals including the  Stardust fire, the Dublin & Monaghan bombings, the Fr Niall Molloy case, the Dowra affair, the Shercock case, the Richie Barron case, the Maurice McCabe case, the Derek Fairbrother case and the Kerry Babies case?

Yes or No.

A few Google searches will put you right, if you are stuck.

None of these people ever mentioned Mary Boyle anywhere.

I don't buy that they were all either afraid of Sean McEniff, or corrupted by him. The whole idea is preposterous.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 02:53:00 PM
Angelo give up.

(//)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 02:32:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:21:56 PM

I'm not too young.

It's a complete fabrication what you are saying, it blew over quite quickly and the state and the media in the state have long since tried to bury the fact that neither the families of the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan and Dublin/Monaghan bodies. Neither FF or FG have pursued these cases, have pursued the culprits because they are too closely tied with and the media in the 26 have been an absolute disgrace in pursuing justice here, utterly shameless.

So, its a complete fabrication that journalists like Gene Kerrigan, Vincent Browne, Veronica Guerin, Joe Joyce, Derek Dunne and Peter Murtagh investigated a series of scandals including the  Stardust fire, the Dublin & Monaghan bombings, the Fr Niall Molloy case, the Dowra affair, the Shercock case, the Richie Barron case, the Maurice McCabe case, the Derek Fairbrother case and the Kerry Babies case?

Yes or No.

A few Google searches will put you right, if you are stuck.

None of these people ever mentioned Mary Boyle anywhere.

I don't buy that they were all either afraid of Sean McEniff, or corrupted by him. The whole idea is preposterous.

It's a complete fabrication that there is an appetite from the mainstream media, governmental, judicial and police forces in the 26 to investigate these incidents to affect. The establishment are quite happy in all these cases that the truth never comes out and the media profession by and large in the 26 is absolutely disgraceful. RTE in particular are utterly vile.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 02:53:00 PM
Angelo give up.

(//)

You'd like that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 03:01:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 02:53:00 PM
Angelo give up.

(//)

You'd like that.

Actually no. Im enjoying you. You are some craic hi. Baa! Baa! Baa!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
It's a complete fabrication that there is an appetite from the mainstream media, governmental, judicial and police forces in the 26 to investigate these incidents to affect. The establishment are quite happy in all these cases that the truth never comes out and the media profession by and large in the 26 is absolutely disgraceful. RTE in particular are utterly vile.

Once you find yourself denying the career of Gene Kerrigan not to mention the others I listed, you have lost, and lost bad. Give up indeed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: skeog on February 14, 2020, 03:24:11 PM
Gee that sounds complicated no wonder it takes so long to get final result.Mary Lou looking good to be Taoiseach.Has she much interest in Sport?.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
It's a complete fabrication that there is an appetite from the mainstream media, governmental, judicial and police forces in the 26 to investigate these incidents to affect. The establishment are quite happy in all these cases that the truth never comes out and the media profession by and large in the 26 is absolutely disgraceful. RTE in particular are utterly vile.

Once you find yourself denying the career of Gene Kerrigan not to mention the others I listed, you have lost, and lost bad. Give up indeed.

Didn't realise the media in the free state consisted of one journalist.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
It's a complete fabrication that there is an appetite from the mainstream media, governmental, judicial and police forces in the 26 to investigate these incidents to affect. The establishment are quite happy in all these cases that the truth never comes out and the media profession by and large in the 26 is absolutely disgraceful. RTE in particular are utterly vile.

Once you find yourself denying the career of Gene Kerrigan not to mention the others I listed, you have lost, and lost bad. Give up indeed.

Didn't realise the media in the free state consisted of one journalist
.

Take your beating.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 03:35:36 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:34:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
It's a complete fabrication that there is an appetite from the mainstream media, governmental, judicial and police forces in the 26 to investigate these incidents to affect. The establishment are quite happy in all these cases that the truth never comes out and the media profession by and large in the 26 is absolutely disgraceful. RTE in particular are utterly vile.

Once you find yourself denying the career of Gene Kerrigan not to mention the others I listed, you have lost, and lost bad. Give up indeed.

Didn't realise the media in the free state consisted of one journalist
.

Take your beating.

I'd need to suffer one first to take it.

Give it another go sure.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 03:35:36 PM
I'd need to suffer one first to take it.

Give it another go sure.

You're done.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 14, 2020, 04:01:06 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 03:01:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 14, 2020, 02:53:00 PM
Angelo give up.

(//)

You'd like that.

Actually no. Im enjoying you. You are some craic hi. Baa! Baa! Baa!

Lad you are clearly a sheep on the other side. A sheep in the field Baa Baaing at the sheep in the next field perhaps.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 03:35:36 PM
I'd need to suffer one first to take it.

Give it another go sure.

You're done.

Another swing and another miss.

Must be tough being so eager but lacking what it takes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 14, 2020, 06:13:10 PM
So now we have:

Mary Lou calling on all parties not to go into coalition with Fianna Fail/FG, while herself trying to go into coalition with Fianna Fail.

Leo fighting hard to go into the opposition benches while Micheal Martin fighting hard to keep him on the government benches.

Mad stuff, Ted.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 14, 2020, 06:22:13 PM
Meanwhile the new floot Bozo has appointed to the North says there won't be any checks on goods from GB to the 6 Cos and no border down the Irish Sea.
If ever we needed a stable Government it's this year with those C***s about to renege on every agreement they've made with the EU.
Only way we'll get that is by 2 of the 3 big parties coming together.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 15, 2020, 12:58:26 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 14, 2020, 06:22:13 PM
Meanwhile the new floot Bozo has appointed to the North says there won't be any checks on goods from GB to the 6 Cos and no border down the Irish Sea.
If ever we needed a stable Government it's this year with those C***s about to renege on every agreement they've made with the EU.
Only way we'll get that is by 2 of the 3 big parties coming together.

There'll be more than 1% interest in Brexit at the next election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 06:44:22 AM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:08 PM

The Stardust Fire is one of the biggest injustices to happen in the state. Hardly a dickeybird about it in the past decade.
Maybe you're too young.

It was one of the biggest stories of the 80s.  Christy Moore wrote a song about it. There was a Tribunal. But before even that there was a forest of writing about it, including books.

Ditto but to lesser extent the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

There wasn't a dickybird about Mary Boyle - from an investigative journalist class that were (usually correctly) gunning for the Gardai and the authorities that interacted with them.


Quote
It's a rotten state but your staged outrage is quite easily exposed.
I'm not in the slightest bit outraged here. I think you may be.

Not sure what you are trying to say about the extent of state interest in the Dublin Monaghan bombings, but from reading this discussion it seems like you are contesting the notion that the state has been covering it up/have shown scant interest in the case. Which would be a grossly misinformed argument.

Despite it being the single biggest mass murder of the troubes north or south and the largest mass murder in the history of the state, the FG/Lab government was found by the Barron Report to have had "little or no interest" in it. The Gardai wound up its special investigation unit for the bombings within 8 weeks of the attack and 'lost' vast amounts of evidence. The Justice Department also refused to offer any documents to Barron and according to Barron, the Department's files on it were "missing in their entirety". Even after the RUC said they had a number of suspects, the Gardai did not even ask for their names. This was covered up because they knew it was carried out by loyalists directed by the british state. It was better for them to deny the families truth/justice than allow, in the words of the Barron Report, "publicity which might have led to an increase in popular support for the IRA" by confirming loyalist and British state collusion. The very day after the bombing, ministers in the Dáil made statements attempting to pin responsibility on the IRA.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 17, 2020, 08:15:40 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 06:44:22 AM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:08 PM

The Stardust Fire is one of the biggest injustices to happen in the state. Hardly a dickeybird about it in the past decade.
Maybe you're too young.

It was one of the biggest stories of the 80s.  Christy Moore wrote a song about it. There was a Tribunal. But before even that there was a forest of writing about it, including books.

Ditto but to lesser extent the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

There wasn't a dickybird about Mary Boyle - from an investigative journalist class that were (usually correctly) gunning for the Gardai and the authorities that interacted with them.


Quote
It's a rotten state but your staged outrage is quite easily exposed.
I'm not in the slightest bit outraged here. I think you may be.

Not sure what you are trying to say about the extent of state interest in the Dublin Monaghan bombings, but from reading this discussion it seems like you are contesting the notion that the state has been covering it up/have shown scant interest in the case. Which would be a grossly misinformed argument.


I never made that argument.  Or anything like it.

You can read as easily as anyone else. Try it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 08:48:48 AM
Quote from: five points on February 17, 2020, 08:15:40 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 06:44:22 AM
Quote from: five points on February 14, 2020, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 14, 2020, 01:36:08 PM

The Stardust Fire is one of the biggest injustices to happen in the state. Hardly a dickeybird about it in the past decade.
Maybe you're too young.

It was one of the biggest stories of the 80s.  Christy Moore wrote a song about it. There was a Tribunal. But before even that there was a forest of writing about it, including books.

Ditto but to lesser extent the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

There wasn't a dickybird about Mary Boyle - from an investigative journalist class that were (usually correctly) gunning for the Gardai and the authorities that interacted with them.


Quote
It's a rotten state but your staged outrage is quite easily exposed.
I'm not in the slightest bit outraged here. I think you may be.

Not sure what you are trying to say about the extent of state interest in the Dublin Monaghan bombings, but from reading this discussion it seems like you are contesting the notion that the state has been covering it up/have shown scant interest in the case. Which would be a grossly misinformed argument.


I never made that argument.  Or anything like it.

You can read as easily as anyone else. Try it.

Safe to assume then that you accept the state covered up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and that your contention is solely media focused. Perhaps then you can point me to the last time there was a concerted effort by the media to aid the families of this attack in a way comparable to their interest in any number of IRA attacks? You said there "massive publicity, media coverage and investigation" by Irish journalists into incidents that included the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. The first serious bit of media investigation into that atrocity and the first one to produce evidence of collusion, was carried out almost twenty years after the attacks and not by the Irish media, but by a Leeds University in association with Yorkshire Television ('Hidden Hand: The Forgotten Massacre'). It was the first media investigation to show that that the short lived Garda investigation had identified eight key suspects, picked out by eye witnesses from photographs (and twelve more from intelligence) while FG/Lab politicians were continually telling victims' relatives that there were no suspects. This discussion originated around questioning why SF are given a more serious grilling by the media about specific instances from the past than other parties are regarding ghosts in their closets. I have yet to see any sustained Irish media campaign specifically aimed at FG/Labour for their role in covering up Dublin/Monaghan and nor have I heard it put to them by the media even once, let alone repeatedly, during any recent election campaigns.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 17, 2020, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 08:48:48 AM

Safe to assume then that you accept the state covered up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and that your contention is solely media focused...

I'm not getting into any discussion with you on the basis of any false premise, least of all your attempt to maliciously misrepresent my earlier comments. If anyone else wishes to do, the floor is open but I won't be joining in.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: TyroneOnlooker on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
If anybody needs any reminding why a large proportion of the population still have an issue with sinn fein being involved in government then they should watch Lost Lives which was on BBC1NI last night.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 10:04:20 AM
Didn't see that but the FG/Labour Government 1973 -77 didnt plant the  Dublin/Monaghan Bombs or murder poor  Mary Boyle.
Anyway SF or FF or FG won't be able to form a Government so some 2 of them will have to come together in the end if we're to avoid another election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: balladmaker on February 17, 2020, 10:45:50 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 10:04:20 AM
Didn't see that but the FG/Labour Government 1973 -77 didnt plant the  Dublin/Monaghan Bombs or murder poor  Mary Boyle.
Anyway SF or FF or FG won't be able to form a Government so some 2 of them will have to come together in the end if we're to avoid another election.

Would another election be such a bad thing.  There's been an obvious swing to the left in recent election ... SF didnt run enough candidates .... if they had they'd have been on 47 or 48 seats now and much closer to government formation .... surely there's a case for letting that swing to the left to be fully heard.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 10:46:21 AM
Quote from: five points on February 17, 2020, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 08:48:48 AM

Safe to assume then that you accept the state covered up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and that your contention is solely media focused...

I'm not getting into any discussion with you on the basis of any false premise, least of all your attempt to maliciously misrepresent my earlier comments. If anyone else wishes to do, the floor is open but I won't be joining in.

My initial reply to you suggested that you were contesting the notion that the state helped cover up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. You retorted with a sarcastic reply making it clear that you "never made that argument or anything like it". So then based on your denial, when I say I assume then you obviously do then accept there was a cover up, you're still suggesting that is a "false premise". Make up your mind. Was there a state cover up in your eyes or was there not?

The state cover up issue aside, the bulk of my last post was a reply to you, based on your own comments (directly quoted), specifically surrounding the media's coverage of the Dublin/Monaghan bombing. You not so much implied as directly stated, that the Dublin/Monaghan bombing was one event that has seen "massive publicity, media coverage and investigation" by Irish media. That is not a "malicious misrepresentation" of what you said. I am merely putting it to you that your impression of a "massive" media interest is utter fantasy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 17, 2020, 10:49:10 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 10:46:21 AM

My initial reply to you suggested that you were contesting the notion that the state helped cover up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. You retorted with a sarcastic reply making it clear that you "never made that argument or anything like it". So then based on your denial, when I say I assume then you obviously do then accept there was a cover up, you're still suggesting that is a "false premise". Make up your mind. Was there a state cover up in your eyes or was there not?

Neither sarcastic nor a denial, but factual comment in both instances. See what I mean about false premises. As previously, I won't be debating with you so please go troll someone else.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 10:55:00 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 10:04:20 AM
Didn't see that but the FG/Labour Government 1973 -77 didn't plant the  Dublin/Monaghan Bombs or murder poor  Mary Boyle.

They did however do everything in their power to withhold the truth from the victims families and to cover up/hinder/block any attempt at a genuine investigation.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 11:02:21 AM
Quote from: five points on February 17, 2020, 10:49:10 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 17, 2020, 10:46:21 AM

My initial reply to you suggested that you were contesting the notion that the state helped cover up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. You retorted with a sarcastic reply making it clear that you "never made that argument or anything like it". So then based on your denial, when I say I assume then you obviously do then accept there was a cover up, you're still suggesting that is a "false premise". Make up your mind. Was there a state cover up in your eyes or was there not?

Neither sarcastic nor a denial, but factual comment in both instances. See what I mean about false premises. As previously, I won't be debating with you so please go troll someone else.

Your reply was neither sarcastic nor a denial? Really? See your entire reply below.

Quote from: five points on February 17, 2020, 08:15:40 AM
I never made that argument.  Or anything like it.
Looks a lot like a denial to me.

Quote from: five points on February 17, 2020, 08:15:40 AM
You can read as easily as anyone else. Try it.
Looks a lot like sarcasm to me.


Stop being a coward. If you are happy to throw out B.S. claims about the media's interest in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, don't slither away when someone calls you out on it. YOU directly stated that there was "massive publicity, media coverage and investigation" by Irish journalists into the Dublin/Monaghan bombing. Why then did it take an English media outlet to do what the Irish media failed to do for almost 20 years after the bombings?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 11:37:57 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 17, 2020, 10:45:50 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 10:04:20 AM
Didn't see that but the FG/Labour Government 1973 -77 didnt plant the  Dublin/Monaghan Bombs or murder poor  Mary Boyle.
Anyway SF or FF or FG won't be able to form a Government so some 2 of them will have to come together in the end if we're to avoid another election.

Would another election be such a bad thing.  There's been an obvious swing to the left in recent election ... SF didnt run enough candidates .... if they had they'd have been on 47 or 48 seats now and much closer to government formation .... surely there's a case for letting that swing to the left to be fully heard.
Looking at SFs votes in the different constituencies-theyd be nailed on to take 3 more, probably win 4 or 5 others, possibility in 3 more.
However they'd take those off other lefties and might lose out with splitting their vote.
I suspect some of their new 14% will be already put off by the antics of Cullinane and Ellis and the general tricolour disrespect.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: tiempo on February 17, 2020, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 11:37:57 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 17, 2020, 10:45:50 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 10:04:20 AM
Didn't see that but the FG/Labour Government 1973 -77 didnt plant the  Dublin/Monaghan Bombs or murder poor  Mary Boyle.
Anyway SF or FF or FG won't be able to form a Government so some 2 of them will have to come together in the end if we're to avoid another election.

Would another election be such a bad thing.  There's been an obvious swing to the left in recent election ... SF didnt run enough candidates .... if they had they'd have been on 47 or 48 seats now and much closer to government formation .... surely there's a case for letting that swing to the left to be fully heard.
Looking at SFs votes in the different constituencies-theyd be nailed on to take 3 more, probably win 4 or 5 others, possibility in 3 more.
However they'd take those off other lefties and might lose out with splitting their vote.
I suspect some of their new 14% will be already put off by the antics of Cullinane and Ellis and the general tricolour disrespect.

Way back to the shires discontented quisling.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2020/0217/1115851-cork-gaa-jersey-to-commemorate-maccurtain-and-mcswiney/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on February 17, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
If anybody needs any reminding why a large proportion of the population still have an issue with sinn fein being involved in government then they should watch Lost Lives which was on BBC1NI last night.

Lazy analysis, did the IRA kill innocent people, undoubtedly, but then look at the history of the NI state. When did the violence and insurrection of the '20's become acceptable. There is blood on many hands including Unionist/loyalist, Republicans and the British State. The Irish state could also be arguably guilty of the sin of omission, and that is before we get into the scandal and corruption. So whilst SF undoubtedly have a past they can only be part of the future of this island. It was exclusionary politics that led to partition and all that followed. Memories have a habit of being selective.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: highorlow on February 17, 2020, 04:54:56 PM
QuoteWould another election be such a bad thing.  There's been an obvious swing to the left in recent election ... SF didnt run enough candidates .... if they had they'd have been on 47 or 48 seats now and much closer to government formation .... surely there's a case for letting that swing to the left to be fully heard.

Not so sure that would be the case, even if it was it would be to the detriment of the PBP and SocDems.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Denn Forever on February 17, 2020, 05:50:00 PM
also might harm SF.  Previous first time voters might not do so again.  Protest vote didn't change much.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 17, 2020, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 17, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
If anybody needs any reminding why a large proportion of the population still have an issue with sinn fein being involved in government then they should watch Lost Lives which was on BBC1NI last night.

Lazy analysis, did the IRA kill innocent people, undoubtedly, but then look at the history of the NI state. When did the violence and insurrection of the '20's become acceptable. There is blood on many hands including Unionist/loyalist, Republicans and the British State. The Irish state could also be arguably guilty of the sin of omission, and that is before we get into the scandal and corruption. So whilst SF undoubtedly have a past they can only be part of the future of this island. It was exclusionary politics that led to partition and all that followed. Memories have a habit of being selective.
The most notable change in 26 co society that the election campaign highlighted, is that the collective desperate attempt to blacken Sinn Fein with the usual propoganda had not only no effect but rebounded against FF  & FG. 
This is a non-reversible shift.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 11:22:11 PM
Sure maybe SF would have got 30% if Mrs Quinn hadn't raised the savage murder of her son??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 17, 2020, 11:36:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 17, 2020, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 17, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
If anybody needs any reminding why a large proportion of the population still have an issue with sinn fein being involved in government then they should watch Lost Lives which was on BBC1NI last night.

Lazy analysis, did the IRA kill innocent people, undoubtedly, but then look at the history of the NI state. When did the violence and insurrection of the '20's become acceptable. There is blood on many hands including Unionist/loyalist, Republicans and the British State. The Irish state could also be arguably guilty of the sin of omission, and that is before we get into the scandal and corruption. So whilst SF undoubtedly have a past they can only be part of the future of this island. It was exclusionary politics that led to partition and all that followed. Memories have a habit of being selective.
The most notable change in 26 co society that the election campaign highlighted, is that the collective desperate attempt to blacken Sinn Fein with the usual propoganda had not only no effect but rebounded against FF  & FG.
This is a non-reversible shift.

No, that's David Cullinane's job.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 11:40:44 PM
 ;D :D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 18, 2020, 12:15:07 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 11:22:11 PM
Sure maybe SF would have got 30% if Mrs Quinn hadn't raised the savage murder of her son??
SF  actual vote was consistent with the polls. The  frantic collective hysteria against Sinn Fein had not only zero negative effect on their votes but had an added bonus of reducing the transfers to FF.  i suspect FG can recover their lost ground, the reactive conservative electorate, but FF are on a downward spiral as  their electorate are now a dying breed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: TyroneOnlooker on February 18, 2020, 08:14:15 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 17, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
If anybody needs any reminding why a large proportion of the population still have an issue with sinn fein being involved in government then they should watch Lost Lives which was on BBC1NI last night.

Lazy analysis, did the IRA kill innocent people, undoubtedly, but then look at the history of the NI state. When did the violence and insurrection of the '20's become acceptable. There is blood on many hands including Unionist/loyalist, Republicans and the British State. The Irish state could also be arguably guilty of the sin of omission, and that is before we get into the scandal and corruption. So whilst SF undoubtedly have a past they can only be part of the future of this island. It was exclusionary politics that led to partition and all that followed. Memories have a habit of being selective.

And this is why I tend not to comment on political threads....the point I am making is that many people in the south of a certain age will undoubtedly feel uneasy in voting for SF or seeing them in govt given their links to those awful awful days not that long ago. For some that cannot be forgotten or forgiven.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 18, 2020, 09:05:09 AM
Quote from: Main Street on February 18, 2020, 12:15:07 AM
i suspect FG can recover their lost ground, the reactive conservative electorate, but FF are on a downward spiral as  their electorate are now a dying breed.

FG spent the last decade taking a massive dump on its own conservative wing.  It ain't returning any time soon.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on February 18, 2020, 09:34:09 AM
Quote from: Main Street on February 17, 2020, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 17, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
If anybody needs any reminding why a large proportion of the population still have an issue with sinn fein being involved in government then they should watch Lost Lives which was on BBC1NI last night.

Lazy analysis, did the IRA kill innocent people, undoubtedly, but then look at the history of the NI state. When did the violence and insurrection of the '20's become acceptable. There is blood on many hands including Unionist/loyalist, Republicans and the British State. The Irish state could also be arguably guilty of the sin of omission, and that is before we get into the scandal and corruption. So whilst SF undoubtedly have a past they can only be part of the future of this island. It was exclusionary politics that led to partition and all that followed. Memories have a habit of being selective.
The most notable change in 26 co society that the election campaign highlighted, is that the collective desperate attempt to blacken Sinn Fein with the usual propoganda had not only no effect but rebounded against FF  & FG. 
This is a non-reversible shift.
Er, no.
People wanted a change and SF got a large youth vote. that vote is very fickle. Where was that vote last year for the local and european elections?

They'll migrate again once they realise unicorn policies don't work and none of the extra consultants or doctors will come back to work in the health service because they will be paying higher levels of tax here under SF, and added to that the US multinationals start leaving or downsizing due to hikes to the tax rates (which I think should be inched upwards - a proper republic shouldn't be giving sweetheart deals to multi billion euro companies) plus we don't have the builders or construction sector capacity to start building masses of social housing/accommodation. A large majority of which needs to be located in town and city centres as the urban sprawl that has been accelerating over the past 2 decades cannot continue, and people want/need to live in urban areas
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 18, 2020, 09:34:09 AM
Quote from: Main Street on February 17, 2020, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on February 17, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
If anybody needs any reminding why a large proportion of the population still have an issue with sinn fein being involved in government then they should watch Lost Lives which was on BBC1NI last night.

Lazy analysis, did the IRA kill innocent people, undoubtedly, but then look at the history of the NI state. When did the violence and insurrection of the '20's become acceptable. There is blood on many hands including Unionist/loyalist, Republicans and the British State. The Irish state could also be arguably guilty of the sin of omission, and that is before we get into the scandal and corruption. So whilst SF undoubtedly have a past they can only be part of the future of this island. It was exclusionary politics that led to partition and all that followed. Memories have a habit of being selective.
The most notable change in 26 co society that the election campaign highlighted, is that the collective desperate attempt to blacken Sinn Fein with the usual propoganda had not only no effect but rebounded against FF  & FG. 
This is a non-reversible shift.
Er, no.
People wanted a change and SF got a large youth vote. that vote is very fickle. Where was that vote last year for the local and european elections?

They'll migrate again once they realise unicorn policies don't work and none of the extra consultants or doctors will come back to work in the health service because they will be paying higher levels of tax here under SF, and added to that the US multinationals start leaving or downsizing due to hikes to the tax rates (which I think should be inched upwards - a proper republic shouldn't be giving sweetheart deals to multi billion euro companies) plus we don't have the builders or construction sector capacity to start building masses of social housing/accommodation. A large majority of which needs to be located in town and city centres as the urban sprawl that has been accelerating over the past 2 decades cannot continue, and people want/need to live in urban areas

Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 18, 2020, 10:36:18 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Dunno if the default position of "its all the British governments fault" is gonna work for them in Dublin.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?

or when they walk out for 3 years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?

or when they walk out for 3 years.

Ironically, that reply was something of a 'walk-out' from the question at hand, so I may refer you back to said question. How can one party, which has never held the Economy Minister position within an assembly that holds no fiscal power, be responsible for the strength/weakness of the economy?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 18, 2020, 11:43:12 AM
Abolish USC - €4bn
Abolish LPT - €400m
Reduce age for OAP - €500m??
Hire 1,000 Hosp Consultants - €250m
Build 100,000 houses - borrow €20bn. Annual Interest €600m

Where is the €5,750,000,000 to come from?

An extra 5% tax on income over €130,000?
Those earning that are already paying tax at 40%. So an extra 5% will bring in SFA even if they stay around to pay it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?

or when they walk out for 3 years.

Ironically, that reply was something of a 'walk-out' from the question at hand, so I may refer you back to said question. How can one party, which has never held the Economy Minister position within an assembly that holds no fiscal power, be responsible for the strength/weakness of the economy?

It is an assembly-no one ministerial position operates in isolation without without first getting passed at the Executive Office
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?

or when they walk out for 3 years.

Ironically, that reply was something of a 'walk-out' from the question at hand, so I may refer you back to said question. How can one party, which has never held the Economy Minister position within an assembly that holds no fiscal power, be responsible for the strength/weakness of the economy?

It is an assembly-no one ministerial position operates in isolation without without first getting passed at the Executive Office

The minister is still the minister ffs. And even if SF ever did hold the position (which, again, they have not to date), how can the minister, or indeed the minister with the hypothetical full support of an executive, be responsible for the strength of the economy when they have no fiscal powers?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:11:54 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?

or when they walk out for 3 years.

Ironically, that reply was something of a 'walk-out' from the question at hand, so I may refer you back to said question. How can one party, which has never held the Economy Minister position within an assembly that holds no fiscal power, be responsible for the strength/weakness of the economy?

It is an assembly-no one ministerial position operates in isolation without without first getting passed at the Executive Office

The minister is still the minister ffs. And even if SF ever did hold the position (which, again, they have not to date), how can the minister, or indeed the minister with the hypothetical full support of an executive, be responsible for the strength of the economy when they have no fiscal powers?

Direct Rule then?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 01:26:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:11:54 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?

or when they walk out for 3 years.

Ironically, that reply was something of a 'walk-out' from the question at hand, so I may refer you back to said question. How can one party, which has never held the Economy Minister position within an assembly that holds no fiscal power, be responsible for the strength/weakness of the economy?

It is an assembly-no one ministerial position operates in isolation without without first getting passed at the Executive Office

The minister is still the minister ffs. And even if SF ever did hold the position (which, again, they have not to date), how can the minister, or indeed the minister with the hypothetical full support of an executive, be responsible for the strength of the economy when they have no fiscal powers?

Direct Rule then?

You're doing a lot of dancing on a pinhead here. The discussion wasn't about methods of helping the economy. Rather, it began with you placing the blame for the poor economy in the six counties directly at the door of Sinn Féin. I'm trying to establish your reasoning, given, as I say, that they have never held the Economy Ministry which itself is a part of a 'government' with no fiscal power. So again, how is their fault?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 01:26:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:11:54 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 11:14:18 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 10:20:53 AM
Yep its big boy stuff now, I have my doubts of SF ability. They have not done well here in the north tackling any economic issues.

Call it "the default position" all you want, but how can SF be responsible for the weakness of an economy when the governing body for the area doesn't have any fiscal powers and when the position of Economy Minister since the GFA was signed in 1998, has never yet been held by a nationalist, let alone anyone from SF?

or when they walk out for 3 years.

Ironically, that reply was something of a 'walk-out' from the question at hand, so I may refer you back to said question. How can one party, which has never held the Economy Minister position within an assembly that holds no fiscal power, be responsible for the strength/weakness of the economy?

It is an assembly-no one ministerial position operates in isolation without without first getting passed at the Executive Office

The minister is still the minister ffs. And even if SF ever did hold the position (which, again, they have not to date), how can the minister, or indeed the minister with the hypothetical full support of an executive, be responsible for the strength of the economy when they have no fiscal powers?

Direct Rule then?

You're doing a lot of dancing on a pinhead here. The discussion wasn't about methods of helping the economy. Rather, it began with you placing the blame for the poor economy in the six counties directly at the door of Sinn Féin. I'm trying to establish your reasoning, given, as I say, that they have never held the Economy Ministry which itself is a part of a 'government' with no fiscal power. So again, how is their fault?

I don't care what you were talking about earlier, i'm talking about the economy. So what is the point of SF in the North if we follow your logic, you seem to making a very strong argument for going to Westminster to wield some power there or agreeing direct rule. Both them and the DUP have never produced any financial or strategic plan to work with what they have. The clear east/west divide in the NI has never been addressed-are they out there encouraging inward manufacturing? The only reason they are back in Stormont is because they lost a shit load of votes and the nurses went on strike. Out of their depth, hand out to the Brits
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 02:30:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
I don't care what you were talking about earlier, i'm talking about the economy.
As am I. It was you who brought up the topic. You asid the poor economy was SF's fault. I'm (still) trying to get you to explain how you came to that conclusion.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
So what is the point of SF in the North if we follow your logic, you seem to making a very strong argument for going to Westminster to wield some power there or agreeing direct rule.
No I advocate Irish reunification. Partition will always be economically bad for Ireland. Borders by their very nature are bad for business.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
Both them and the DUP have never produced any financial or strategic plan to work with what they have. The clear east/west divide in the NI has never been addressed-are they out there encouraging inward manufacturing? The only reason they are back in Stormont is because they lost a shit load of votes and the nurses went on strike. Out of their depth, hand out to the Brits
Of course they produce spending plans. They're called budgets and the next one will be produced in around 3 weeks time. But all that is just a case of distributing the money handed over from westminster. You may recall all parties recently complaining that they did not get what they were expecting upon restoration of the assembly? So, again given that they cannot make any fiscal adjustments, AGAIN I find myself asking you how you figure that Sinn Féin are the ones responsible for the strength of the economy when all they, alongside the other executive ministers, can only distribute what they are given and given that the Department of the Economy has only ever been held by the DUP or UUP.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 03:27:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 02:30:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
I don't care what you were talking about earlier, i'm talking about the economy.
As am I. It was you who brought up the topic. You asid the poor economy was SF's fault. I'm (still) trying to get you to explain how you came to that conclusion.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
So what is the point of SF in the North if we follow your logic, you seem to making a very strong argument for going to Westminster to wield some power there or agreeing direct rule.
No I advocate Irish reunification. Partition will always be economically bad for Ireland. Borders by their very nature are bad for business.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
Both them and the DUP have never produced any financial or strategic plan to work with what they have. The clear east/west divide in the NI has never been addressed-are they out there encouraging inward manufacturing? The only reason they are back in Stormont is because they lost a shit load of votes and the nurses went on strike. Out of their depth, hand out to the Brits
Of course they produce spending plans. They're called budgets and the next one will be produced in around 3 weeks time. But all that is just a case of distributing the money handed over from westminster. You may recall all parties recently complaining that they did not get what they were expecting upon restoration of the assembly? So, again given that they cannot make any fiscal adjustments, AGAIN I find myself asking you how you figure that Sinn Féin are the ones responsible for the strength of the economy when all they, alongside the other executive ministers, can only distribute what they are given and given that the Department of the Economy has only ever been held by the DUP or UUP.

You have contradicted yourself a number of times and have basically said SF are powerless to make any economic improvements in NI along with their partners in crime(Dup). So direct rule it is, or do a John Hume and actually get out to the US and get some industry here(Dupont, Seagate etc)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 18, 2020, 03:30:31 PM
That would require grown up maturity and taking chips off shoulders.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 04:13:23 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 03:27:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 02:30:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
I don't care what you were talking about earlier, i'm talking about the economy.
As am I. It was you who brought up the topic. You asid the poor economy was SF's fault. I'm (still) trying to get you to explain how you came to that conclusion.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
So what is the point of SF in the North if we follow your logic, you seem to making a very strong argument for going to Westminster to wield some power there or agreeing direct rule.
No I advocate Irish reunification. Partition will always be economically bad for Ireland. Borders by their very nature are bad for business.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
Both them and the DUP have never produced any financial or strategic plan to work with what they have. The clear east/west divide in the NI has never been addressed-are they out there encouraging inward manufacturing? The only reason they are back in Stormont is because they lost a shit load of votes and the nurses went on strike. Out of their depth, hand out to the Brits
Of course they produce spending plans. They're called budgets and the next one will be produced in around 3 weeks time. But all that is just a case of distributing the money handed over from westminster. You may recall all parties recently complaining that they did not get what they were expecting upon restoration of the assembly? So, again given that they cannot make any fiscal adjustments, AGAIN I find myself asking you how you figure that Sinn Féin are the ones responsible for the strength of the economy when all they, alongside the other executive ministers, can only distribute what they are given and given that the Department of the Economy has only ever been held by the DUP or UUP.

You have contradicted yourself a number of times and have basically said SF are powerless to make any economic improvements in NI along with their partners in crime(Dup). So direct rule it is, or do a John Hume and actually get out to the US and get some industry here(Dupont, Seagate etc)

It's not a contradiction. I have consistently been saying SF are powerless to make any significant improvements to the economy of the six counties. You're the one holding them responsible for the place having a weak economy. I'm at a loss as to how you came to the conclusion that they are to blame given that the assembly has no fiscal powers, and even if it did, they have never held the Economy portfolio. The fact is you are bitterly anti-SF, which is fair enough if that's your position; but don't spout nonsense about how they are responsible for the six counties being an economic basket case. It will always be a basket case for as long as partition exists.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 20, 2020, 11:51:32 PM
4 candidates proposed for Taoiseach today.
All defeated.
Real talking has to start now.
FF/FG/Greens (84 ) or
SF/Lefties/Greens (66) plus 13  various Independents .
Hmmm.....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: AFM on February 21, 2020, 08:11:39 AM
Mr Varadkar tendered his resignation as Taoiseach to President Michael D Higgins last night, but will continue in the role in a caretaker capacity.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0221/1116630-dail-taoiseach/ (https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0221/1116630-dail-taoiseach/)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Joeythelips on February 21, 2020, 08:34:36 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 20, 2020, 11:51:32 PM
4 candidates proposed for Taoiseach today.
All defeated.
Real talking has to start now.
FF/FG/Greens (84 ) or
SF/Lefties/Greens (66) plus 13  various Independents .
Hmmm.....

What happens if none of these can be agreed upon?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on February 21, 2020, 08:40:05 AM
Another election I presume. More than likely fg and ff will do a deal. If there was another election sf would stand more candidates and more than likely be the largest party.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 21, 2020, 08:46:02 AM
Quote from: ardtole on February 21, 2020, 08:40:05 AM
Another election I presume. More than likely fg and ff will do a deal. If there was another election sf would stand more candidates and more than likely be the largest party.

PBP, Independents and Greens would lose seats, there would be no loyalty to the "left"
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 21, 2020, 11:31:16 AM
If another election happens and the Shinners run more than 1 candidate in those places they got more than 1 quota and all their new voters stick with them -
They will likely wipe out the PBPs except Boyd Barrett, some SDp and some leftish Independents.
Of course splitting their own vote could in many instances leave them losing out in some places while in others the 2 SF candidates could be the last 2 standing and only 1 seat left to fill.
Donegal 2.75 quotas, Louth 2.7  - would they run a 3rd candidate?
Waterford  and Dublin SC 2 Quotas
Dublin Bay North, Dublin Central, Dublin NW, Dublin SW, c1.75 Quotas.
Wicklow, Fingal and Wicklow c1.5 Quotas.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on February 21, 2020, 11:59:13 AM
I couldn't see them running 3 candidates in any constituency, after what happened in Donegal at the previous election. There are certainly constituencies where they could field a second candidate, but likely at the expense of other left leaning parties and independents, rather than ff or fg.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 21, 2020, 10:39:56 PM
No comments on here about the Garda Commissioners scandalous comments today? We're not a functioning democracy if we accept that. It's absolutely mental and no one is talking about it!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 21, 2020, 11:56:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 21, 2020, 10:39:56 PM
No comments on here about the Garda Commissioners scandalous comments today? We're not a functioning democracy if we accept that. It's absolutely mental and no one is talking about it!
??
Dunno seanie, what did the hoor say anyway?
I was out of town all day so I haven't been keeping in touch with current affairs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 22, 2020, 12:13:33 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 21, 2020, 11:56:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 21, 2020, 10:39:56 PM
No comments on here about the Garda Commissioners scandalous comments today? We're not a functioning democracy if we accept that. It's absolutely mental and no one is talking about it!
??
Dunno seanie, what did the hoor say anyway?
I was out of town all day so I haven't been keeping in touch with current affairs.
Reckons the Provos are pulling the strings behind the scenes. As seanie says they're scandalous. I've never read/heard any previous Garda Commisioner come out and say that after an election. None of whom were old guard RUC men either.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on February 22, 2020, 12:37:53 AM
It was obvious he was prompted by Varadkar/Martin, reeks of desperation.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2020, 06:14:40 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 03:27:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 18, 2020, 02:30:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
I don't care what you were talking about earlier, i'm talking about the economy.
As am I. It was you who brought up the topic. You asid the poor economy was SF's fault. I'm (still) trying to get you to explain how you came to that conclusion.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
So what is the point of SF in the North if we follow your logic, you seem to making a very strong argument for going to Westminster to wield some power there or agreeing direct rule.
No I advocate Irish reunification. Partition will always be economically bad for Ireland. Borders by their very nature are bad for business.

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 18, 2020, 01:57:22 PM
Both them and the DUP have never produced any financial or strategic plan to work with what they have. The clear east/west divide in the NI has never been addressed-are they out there encouraging inward manufacturing? The only reason they are back in Stormont is because they lost a shit load of votes and the nurses went on strike. Out of their depth, hand out to the Brits
Of course they produce spending plans. They're called budgets and the next one will be produced in around 3 weeks time. But all that is just a case of distributing the money handed over from westminster. You may recall all parties recently complaining that they did not get what they were expecting upon restoration of the assembly? So, again given that they cannot make any fiscal adjustments, AGAIN I find myself asking you how you figure that Sinn Féin are the ones responsible for the strength of the economy when all they, alongside the other executive ministers, can only distribute what they are given and given that the Department of the Economy has only ever been held by the DUP or UUP.

You have contradicted yourself a number of times and have basically said SF are powerless to make any economic improvements in NI along with their partners in crime(Dup). So direct rule it is, or do a John Hume and actually get out to the US and get some industry here(Dupont, Seagate etc)

Remind us how Dupont went again?

And you talk about people contradicting themselves? Jesus f**king Christ.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: bannside on February 22, 2020, 09:20:46 AM
Yea sure,  John Hume knew Du Pont would end up like that! Wise up!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 22, 2020, 12:37:53 AM
It was obvious he was prompted by Varadkar/Martin, reeks of desperation.

+1 the timing of his statement is no coincidence.  Political interference by a Gardai Commissioner is surely unacceptable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 22, 2020, 12:30:05 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 22, 2020, 12:37:53 AM
It was obvious he was prompted by Varadkar/Martin, reeks of desperation.

+1 the timing of his statement is no coincidence.  Political interference by a Gardai Commissioner is surely unacceptable.

Varadkar is his boss (Minister for Defence). Harris was number 2 in the PSNI in 2015 when the report he refers to came out. His comments were wrong on so many levels it's unreal. I feel the constant attacks on SF by people who have ruined the country and shown a callous disregard for people whether it be housing, homelessness, healthcare etc are counter productive anyway at this point. They're only playing to their own crowd to try and legitimise a FF/FG coalition. Many within those parties realise it will be the beginning of the end for one of the two if they go into coalition.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 12:52:20 PM
Wouldnt Black n Tan Flanagan be his Minister ?
Despite the inappropriateness of the comments at this time is the " Army Council" still ruling the roost?
In other words was he simply stating a fact?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 01:00:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 12:52:20 PM
Wouldnt Black n Tan Flanagan be his Minister ?
Despite the inappropriateness of the comments at this time is the " Army Council" still ruling the roost?
In other words was he simply stating a fact?

There's no army, so no army council. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 22, 2020, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 01:00:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 12:52:20 PM
Wouldnt Black n Tan Flanagan be his Minister ?
Despite the inappropriateness of the comments at this time is the " Army Council" still ruling the roost?
In other words was he simply stating a fact?

There's no army, so no army council.

Most of the 'significant' figures are still there, in the background & they're all on the payroll at Stormont. Presumably they're not sitting scratching their holes & ordering up biros & paper clips every day? They're still providing what might be termed insight,  analysis, advice & guidance for the party.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 01:37:03 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 22, 2020, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 01:00:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 12:52:20 PM
Wouldnt Black n Tan Flanagan be his Minister ?
Despite the inappropriateness of the comments at this time is the " Army Council" still ruling the roost?
In other words was he simply stating a fact?

There's no army, so no army council.

Most of the 'significant' figures are still there, in the background & they're all on the payroll at Stormont. Presumably they're not sitting scratching their holes & ordering up biros & paper clips every day? They're still providing what might be termed insight,  analysis, advice & guidance for the party.

So every party has advisors.  The point I'm making is that the war is over, no IRA, no army, no army council.  It is every political party's prerogative to select their advisors.  Martin McGuinness was joint first minister, and arguably the most successful minister Stormont has had.  He wasn't playing ludo for the duration of the troubles. 

FF/FG know the writing is on the wall for them, they're in terminal decline.  Any slur will do for them at this  stage.  Do they think the Irish electorate are thick!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 22, 2020, 03:23:00 PM
At this stage beginning to look like FF/FG/greens. For those parties, it would need to be a brilliant government, otherwise at least 2 of them will get wiped out and Sinn Fein will find themselves in that 35% range Amarach poll suggested, or more, and set to lead next gov, in which case we start to move to a left/right model with whats left of the civil war parties merging.  But a lot could happen in 5 years once the outrage dies down and it would behoove new gov to do a deal with Boris and set a realistic date for a border poll in the middle of this decade. Easier said than done as Boris won't give them the steam of his piss. We also spend more on health per person than nearly any nation on earth and who will be brave enough to take on the various special interests, and we start to get value for money. Same with homeless- we spend a lot with poor end result. Important days ahead.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 22, 2020, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 22, 2020, 12:37:53 AM
It was obvious he was prompted by Varadkar/Martin, reeks of desperation.

+1 the timing of his statement is no coincidence.  Political interference by a Gardai Commissioner is surely unacceptable.
True indeed, his timing was designed to influence the current political  negotiations.  However, he cannot leave things at that- he must now either put up or retract and it's in everybody's interests than he is compelled to produce proof or withdraw his allegations.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: bannside on February 22, 2020, 03:49:37 PM
As if there is any remote chance that he might do either!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 22, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 22, 2020, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 22, 2020, 12:37:53 AM
It was obvious he was prompted by Varadkar/Martin, reeks of desperation.

+1 the timing of his statement is no coincidence.  Political interference by a Gardai Commissioner is surely unacceptable.
True indeed, his timing was designed to influence the current political  negotiations.  However, he cannot leave things at that- he must now either put up or retract and it's in everybody's interests than he is compelled to produce proof or withdraw his allegations.

Theres no doubt either that he was commanded to interfere. A truly shocking turn of events and incredibly dangerous to the health of the peace process. It also shows everyone who has their eyes closed exactly what depths the establishment will stoop to.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 22, 2020, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 22, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 22, 2020, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 22, 2020, 12:37:53 AM
It was obvious he was prompted by Varadkar/Martin, reeks of desperation.

+1 the timing of his statement is no coincidence.  Political interference by a Gardai Commissioner is surely unacceptable.
True indeed, his timing was designed to influence the current political  negotiations.  However, he cannot leave things at that- he must now either put up or retract and it's in everybody's interests than he is compelled to produce proof or withdraw his allegations.

Theres no doubt either that he was commanded to interfere. A truly shocking turn of events and incredibly dangerous to the health of the peace process. It also shows everyone who has their eyes closed exactly what depths the establishment will stoop to.

The question was out there, he answered it. What do you expect?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 22, 2020, 06:22:36 PM
Public rallies next from Sinn Fein. LOL!  A little bit of Trump, a little bit of Maduro.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 06:51:11 PM
What's with these "rallies"?
Are they meant to frighten FF and FG out of nominating a Taoiseach or Independents into voting for MLou as Taoiseach??
Or to convince FF to agree a Coalition with SF?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 22, 2020, 07:00:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 22, 2020, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 22, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 22, 2020, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on February 22, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: ardtole on February 22, 2020, 12:37:53 AM
It was obvious he was prompted by Varadkar/Martin, reeks of desperation.

+1 the timing of his statement is no coincidence.  Political interference by a Gardai Commissioner is surely unacceptable.
True indeed, his timing was designed to influence the current political  negotiations.  However, he cannot leave things at that- he must now either put up or retract and it's in everybody's interests than he is compelled to produce proof or withdraw his allegations.

Theres no doubt either that he was commanded to interfere. A truly shocking turn of events and incredibly dangerous to the health of the peace process. It also shows everyone who has their eyes closed exactly what depths the establishment will stoop to.

The question was out there, he answered it. What do you expect?
I'd expect him to substantiate his allegations.
I somehow doubt that he was making things up and I would imagine that he meant what he said but given the unsettled state of political affairs rights now, it's necessary for him to back up his allegations and to do so without delay.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 22, 2020, 09:26:25 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 21, 2020, 10:39:56 PM
No comments on here about the Garda Commissioners scandalous comments today? We're not a functioning democracy if we accept that. It's absolutely mental and no one is talking about it!

Political policing at the behest of the big two.  They must be seriously rattled.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 11:52:16 PM
Sinn Féin still going with the myth that they "won" the election it seems.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 23, 2020, 12:57:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 11:52:16 PM
Sinn Féin still going with the myth that they "won" the election it seems.

That probably depends on how you define 'won'. In terms of getting most votes they won with SF 535K (37 seats), FF 484K (38 seats) & FG 455K (35 seats). In terms of seats FF could declare themselves as winners but the reality is that there was no clear winner, nothing is ever that black or white. One thing is clear though and that is that SF have a mandate whether people agree with them or not. Those who are SF bashers have absolute tunnel vision when it comes to their opposition to them and nothing will ever change their opinion. They are largely of an older generation who remember the troubles or who have suffered at the hands of the IRA campaign and that is fine. Everyone has their own experiences. However, equally they also have to accept that there is a younger generation of voters who have no recollection of the violence and who have for whatever reason decided to go with SF. It's a frustration and complete lack of empathy from the old established order that has been their downfall and I think some of these people live in a sheltered bubble. They are far removed from ordinary people on the ground.

I certainly don't think SF have all the answers and would be very dubious about whether some of their policies can actually work in the real world but the other parties would be better equipped to try and get their own house in order and work out why there is a complete disconnect rather than continue to obsess over another party. The whole dismissive attitude is only playing into SF's hands. Some of it is genuine worry about the links to the old brigade but some of it is also a class issue and a dismissive 'I'm alright Jack' attitude.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 23, 2020, 07:31:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.
+1
I am in total agreement with you. That's the most objective assessment of the Shinner surge that has been posted here. ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 09:49:05 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 22, 2020, 06:51:11 PM
What's with these "rallies"?
Are they meant to frighten FF and FG out of nominating a Taoiseach or Independents into voting for MLou as Taoiseach??
Or to convince FF to agree a Coalition with SF?

Or are they just SF reps maintaing contact with their base? They are public meetings in hotel rooms. Sinn Féin hold them routinely. As so other parties. There is only a fuss this time because FF/FG and the Dublin media are taking absolutely any opportunity, no matter how utterly trivial, to attack SF. I've seen a number of figures (including one current FF TD) attempt to compare these public meetings to be held by SF to a nazi rally. One former Green TD said it was reminiscent of Nuremberg. One FG TD on twitter who has been busy attacking SF over a public meeting was heavily advertising a previous FG one using the same platform.

Surely, SOMEONE is FF/FG is bound to realise this nonsense is counter-productive?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 10:33:21 AM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

::)

Just how f#@king gullible are you? Wouldn't you say it's strange to hear Drew contradict the findings of the Independent Monitoring Commission since 2008?

"Under PIRA's own rules the Army Council was the body that directed its military campaign. Now that that campaign is well and truly over, the Army Council by deliberate choice is no longer operational or functional."
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ira-army-council-no-longer-operational-say-imc-376165.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ira-army-council-no-longer-operational-say-imc-376165.html)

Furthermore, Drew Harris said he concurs with the position of the PSNI's assessment report. He was referencing a 2015 report which he himself was involved in producing when he was Deputy Chief COnstable of the PSNI (yes - he essentially said he agrees with himself). That report did not say there was an Army Council directing Sinn Féin but rather that "PIRA members believe that the PAC [army council] oversees both PIRA and Sinn Féin with an overarching strategy."

The same year, 2015, the Garda wrote to Padraig McLochlainn TD in response to a question from Padraig. The Garda letter stated:
"An Garda Siochana hold no information or intelligence to support the assertion that the Provisional IRA still maintains it's military structure" (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERYUQsnXsAAyMDh?format=jpg&name=medium (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERYUQsnXsAAyMDh?format=jpg&name=medium))

I'd have thought anyone with anything between their ears would see this for the B.S. story that it is, and moreso, be far more concerned about the past of the man in charge of policing the state. The Dublin/Monaghan bombings - the worst atrocity of the conflict - was carried out by the UVF's Glennane Gang (a gang armed, directed and protected by the British State and almost exclusively made up of members of the British security forces). Harris has gone above and beyond to block investigations into this gang's activities.

The Historical Enquiries Team was set up to investigate such murders, and was intended to be institutionally independent of the RUC and the PSNI in that it was based in England and had no members who had ever been in either of those forces. It did not have to seek leave from the PSNI in relation to its investigations and it had its own finances. However, most Victims Groups had no confidence in it, and doubted it's independence. They were soon vindicated in that belief. In 2010, none other than Drew Harris brought the HET in under his control as head of Crime Operations Branch of the PSNI. He removed investigative functions from HET officers; stripped it of the power to arrest and question suspects, he took control of their budget, and he closed down their thematic investigation unit which was cross referencing the individual investigations for links, patterns and systems drawing out the involvement of RUC personnel and wider collusion. He then wrote to the families of the victims to tell them they would not be getting an investigation. This letter subverted a decade of assurances that the British Government had made that there would be an independent investigation.

Victims families took the matter to court and won, with Mr Justice Tracey criticising the "extreme" abuse of power in trying to cover up what happened. Justice Tracey also stated that this abuse of power by Harris showed that "the state is not genuinely committed" to addressing the concerns of families. Despite all this, Harris made a pledge to defend and protect the reputation of RUC – a totally discredited, sectarian, murderous police force.

To quote Stephen Travers, survivor of the Miami Showband massacre on hearing of the appointment of Harris: "The Fox is now in charge of the hen-house. What a dreadful betrayal of victims who have been consistently blocked and denied access to evidence by his current office."

But who cares, eh? You'd rather talk manufactured nonsense about the "army council"   ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on February 24, 2020, 10:52:23 AM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

So why isn't he and the PSNI doing their job and bringing people in front of the courts for this? You can't have it both ways. Either the Gardaí and/or the PSNI know these people and are not doing their job or there is nothing to this. Which is it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Keyser soze on February 24, 2020, 11:02:20 AM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

What is your definition of a terrorist?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 24, 2020, 11:57:42 AM
Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 24, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

Of course for some it will still be an issue. I don't believe that if there are any figures giving advice in the background that they are still actively directing terrorism. Personally I think it would be best that SF are not admitted into government this time but it is going to happen sooner or later.  Are Fine Gael going to wait until all of the former IRA figures have died off before they will consider going into government then? Some people are so set in their thinking and feel so threatened as the old established order comes under threat, that they simply can't countenance SF in government at any stage be that now or in 15 years time. Unfortunately that is not democracy either.           
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 24, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

Of course for some it will still be an issue. I don't believe that if there are any figures giving advice in the background that they are still actively directing terrorism. Personally I think it would be best that SF are not admitted into government this time but it is going to happen sooner or later.  Are Fine Gael going to wait until all of the former IRA figures have died off before they will consider going into government then? Some people are so set in their thinking and feel so threatened as the old established order comes under threat, that they simply can't countenance SF in government at any stage be that now or in 15 years time. Unfortunately that is not democracy either.         

Surely excluding the most popular party from government is not democracy either? And as for the IRA, you don't seriously think that FG/FF's concern is actually about the IRA? It's extinct FFS. FF & FG are purely concerned about power & self-preservation and that requires stemming the SF tide at all costs and if that means going so far as to risk the peace process by trying desperately to conjure up the IRA at every opportunity, then so be it. They are morally bankrupt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

a) The chief policeman in the free state is a former high ranking member of a disbanded and disgraced police force who were involved in colluding and carrying out sectarian murders and suppressing investigations as victims and their families sought justice
b) The chief policeman's views are not based on any sort of concrete evidence whatsoever, they are his subjective views on what others views actually are and given his background, this makes him very much compromised
c) The timing of these comments are very interesting and do not inspire confidence in the police force in the free state after all its recent controversies

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mackers on February 24, 2020, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.
It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.
The hypocrisy of the FG stance (and the FF one also) is just off the scales.  It's OK for unionists to go into power with SF in the north (Simon Coveney was heavily involved in persuading the DUP to go back into partnership with SF) but a month later they refuse point blank to do the very same thing themselves in the south. Do as I say not as I do. Joke.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 24, 2020, 01:01:37 PM
Quote from: mackers on February 24, 2020, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.
It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.
The hypocrisy of the FG stance (and the FF one also) is just off the scales.  It's OK for unionists to go into power with SF in the north (Simon Coveney was heavily involved in persuading the DUP to go back into partnership with SF) but a month later they refuse point blank to do the very same thing themselves in the south. Do as I say not as I do. Joke.

The GFA dictates that the largest parties from each community have to share power in the north.
There is no such rule in the south, so FG are quite entitled to say they will not share power with SF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Keyser soze on February 24, 2020, 01:40:53 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 11:57:42 AM
Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

By that defiinition is Drew Harris a terrorist?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 24, 2020, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

a) The chief policeman in the free state is a former high ranking member of a disbanded and disgraced police force who were involved in colluding and carrying out sectarian murders and suppressing investigations as victims and their families sought justice
b) The chief policeman's views are not based on any sort of concrete evidence whatsoever, they are his subjective views on what others views actually are and given his background, this makes him very much compromised
c) The timing of these comments are very interesting and do not inspire confidence in the police force in the free state after all its recent controversies

Other senior gardai agree with him.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4182679

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 24, 2020, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 24, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

Of course for some it will still be an issue. I don't believe that if there are any figures giving advice in the background that they are still actively directing terrorism. Personally I think it would be best that SF are not admitted into government this time but it is going to happen sooner or later.  Are Fine Gael going to wait until all of the former IRA figures have died off before they will consider going into government then? Some people are so set in their thinking and feel so threatened as the old established order comes under threat, that they simply can't countenance SF in government at any stage be that now or in 15 years time. Unfortunately that is not democracy either.         

Surely excluding the most popular party from government is not democracy either? And as for the IRA, you don't seriously think that FG/FF's concern is actually about the IRA? It's extinct FFS. FF & FG are purely concerned about power & self-preservation and that requires stemming the SF tide at all costs and if that means going so far as to risk the peace process by trying desperately to conjure up the IRA at every opportunity, then so be it. They are morally bankrupt.

How 'f*&king gullible' are you?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 24, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

Of course for some it will still be an issue. I don't believe that if there are any figures giving advice in the background that they are still actively directing terrorism. Personally I think it would be best that SF are not admitted into government this time but it is going to happen sooner or later.  Are Fine Gael going to wait until all of the former IRA figures have died off before they will consider going into government then? Some people are so set in their thinking and feel so threatened as the old established order comes under threat, that they simply can't countenance SF in government at any stage be that now or in 15 years time. Unfortunately that is not democracy either.         

Surely excluding the most popular party from government is not democracy either? And as for the IRA, you don't seriously think that FG/FF's concern is actually about the IRA? It's extinct FFS. FF & FG are purely concerned about power & self-preservation and that requires stemming the SF tide at all costs and if that means going so far as to risk the peace process by trying desperately to conjure up the IRA at every opportunity, then so be it. They are morally bankrupt.

How 'f*&king gullible' are you?

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 24, 2020, 02:40:02 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 24, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

Of course for some it will still be an issue. I don't believe that if there are any figures giving advice in the background that they are still actively directing terrorism. Personally I think it would be best that SF are not admitted into government this time but it is going to happen sooner or later.  Are Fine Gael going to wait until all of the former IRA figures have died off before they will consider going into government then? Some people are so set in their thinking and feel so threatened as the old established order comes under threat, that they simply can't countenance SF in government at any stage be that now or in 15 years time. Unfortunately that is not democracy either.         

Surely excluding the most popular party from government is not democracy either? And as for the IRA, you don't seriously think that FG/FF's concern is actually about the IRA? It's extinct FFS. FF & FG are purely concerned about power & self-preservation and that requires stemming the SF tide at all costs and if that means going so far as to risk the peace process by trying desperately to conjure up the IRA at every opportunity, then so be it. They are morally bankrupt.

How 'f*&king gullible' are you?

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

We pick and chose when to get upset with people's past. No consistency.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 24, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

Well regardless of what Drew Harris really thinks or what any of us think about him, it's pretty clear that Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson have control and oversight of Sinn Fein in the 6 counties. And given they always go on about being the only party who are both north and south, it's probably safe to assume the 3 lads have a similar arrangement with Mary Lou?

Can you tell us more about the 3 men, just so we know who'll be leading us in the future? There was a journalist on Dunphy's podcast last week who said Howell probably played a part in the IRA laying down their arms, but nothing else really about them (other than going through the evidence of how they seemed to be controlling O'Muilleor)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:45:34 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

a) The chief policeman in the free state is a former high ranking member of a disbanded and disgraced police force who were involved in colluding and carrying out sectarian murders and suppressing investigations as victims and their families sought justice
b) The chief policeman's views are not based on any sort of concrete evidence whatsoever, they are his subjective views on what others views actually are and given his background, this makes him very much compromised
c) The timing of these comments are very interesting and do not inspire confidence in the police force in the free state after all its recent controversies

Other senior gardai agree with him.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%C3%A9in-1.4182679

Padraig MacLochlainn has a letter from Gardai, dated 2015 stating that Gardai do not believe this, so somewhere in subsequent 5 years, the Gardai have changed their mind, without evidence.

Are you intelligent enough to figure out what is happening here?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

Well regardless of what Drew Harris really thinks or what any of us think about him, it's pretty clear that Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson have control and oversight of Sinn Fein in the 6 counties. And given they always go on about being the only party who are both north and south, it's probably safe to assume the 3 lads have a similar arrangement with Mary Lou?

Can you tell us more about the 3 men, just so we know who'll be leading us in the future? There was a journalist on Dunphy's podcast last week who said Howell probably played a part in the IRA laying down their arms, but nothing else really about them (other than going through the evidence of how they seemed to be controlling O'Muilleor)

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 24, 2020, 03:08:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?

Perhaps they did, but nobody wants those days back, do they?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 24, 2020, 03:08:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?

Perhaps they did, but nobody wants those days back, do they?

Have they ever gone away?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

Well regardless of what Drew Harris really thinks or what any of us think about him, it's pretty clear that Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson have control and oversight of Sinn Fein in the 6 counties. And given they always go on about being the only party who are both north and south, it's probably safe to assume the 3 lads have a similar arrangement with Mary Lou?

Can you tell us more about the 3 men, just so we know who'll be leading us in the future? There was a journalist on Dunphy's podcast last week who said Howell probably played a part in the IRA laying down their arms, but nothing else really about them (other than going through the evidence of how they seemed to be controlling O'Muilleor)

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?
Ah whatabouttery!!

It's all grand so because in the past some people had a politician or 2 in their pocket!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:26:18 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

Well regardless of what Drew Harris really thinks or what any of us think about him, it's pretty clear that Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson have control and oversight of Sinn Fein in the 6 counties. And given they always go on about being the only party who are both north and south, it's probably safe to assume the 3 lads have a similar arrangement with Mary Lou?

Can you tell us more about the 3 men, just so we know who'll be leading us in the future? There was a journalist on Dunphy's podcast last week who said Howell probably played a part in the IRA laying down their arms, but nothing else really about them (other than going through the evidence of how they seemed to be controlling O'Muilleor)

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?
Ah whatabouttery!!

It's all grand so because in the past some people had a politician or 2 in their pocket!

I'm trying to clarify and square off your views here, so far I'm getting:

- It's acceptable for political parties to accept bribes from wealthy businessmen that shape government policy and decision making
- It's unaccaeptable for a political party to take consult external advisors on matters that shape government policy and decisions

What you call whataboutery I call balance and context and the balance and the context in this matter says you are a knot of contradictions and your outrage and concerns are both staged and theatrical.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:26:18 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

Well regardless of what Drew Harris really thinks or what any of us think about him, it's pretty clear that Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson have control and oversight of Sinn Fein in the 6 counties. And given they always go on about being the only party who are both north and south, it's probably safe to assume the 3 lads have a similar arrangement with Mary Lou?

Can you tell us more about the 3 men, just so we know who'll be leading us in the future? There was a journalist on Dunphy's podcast last week who said Howell probably played a part in the IRA laying down their arms, but nothing else really about them (other than going through the evidence of how they seemed to be controlling O'Muilleor)

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?
Ah whatabouttery!!

It's all grand so because in the past some people had a politician or 2 in their pocket!

I'm trying to clarify and square off your views here, so far I'm getting:

- It's acceptable for political parties to accept bribes from wealthy businessmen that shape government policy and decision making
- It's unaccaeptable for a political party to take consult external advisors on matters that shape government policy and decisions

What you call whataboutery I call balance and context and the balance and the context in this matter says you are a knot of contradictions and your outrage and concerns are both staged and theatrical.
Where did anyone say it's acceptable for a politician to accept bribes?
It was a great day when Ray Burke and others went to jail. Just not half enough of them were caught.

But back to today! So are you refusing to answer the question about Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson or do you have no clue either about who the leaders and directors of Sinn Fein are?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:26:18 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

Well regardless of what Drew Harris really thinks or what any of us think about him, it's pretty clear that Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson have control and oversight of Sinn Fein in the 6 counties. And given they always go on about being the only party who are both north and south, it's probably safe to assume the 3 lads have a similar arrangement with Mary Lou?

Can you tell us more about the 3 men, just so we know who'll be leading us in the future? There was a journalist on Dunphy's podcast last week who said Howell probably played a part in the IRA laying down their arms, but nothing else really about them (other than going through the evidence of how they seemed to be controlling O'Muilleor)

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?
Ah whatabouttery!!

It's all grand so because in the past some people had a politician or 2 in their pocket!

I'm trying to clarify and square off your views here, so far I'm getting:

- It's acceptable for political parties to accept bribes from wealthy businessmen that shape government policy and decision making
- It's unaccaeptable for a political party to take consult external advisors on matters that shape government policy and decisions

What you call whataboutery I call balance and context and the balance and the context in this matter says you are a knot of contradictions and your outrage and concerns are both staged and theatrical.
Where did anyone say it's acceptable for a politician to accept bribes?
It was a great day when Ray Burke and others went to jail. Just not half enough of them were caught.

But back to today! So are you refusing to answer the question about Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson or do you have no clue either about who the leaders and directors of Sinn Fein are?

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:39:19 PM

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?
your whattaboutery and refusal to answer the question is getting very boring. Don't reply to me and leave it to someone else if you can't answer the question. Maybe you just don't know. That's fine, but please go off on your tangents on some other thread rather than in response to me! 

I don't know that I have any issue with Ted Howell. The Dunphy podcast was the first I heard of him. I want to learn more about the future co-leader of our country so I can decide for myself. The issue doesn't seem a surprise to the Shinners on here so I'm sure someone can have a go.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 24, 2020, 03:55:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:26:18 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 02:09:36 PM

My question stands. Drew Harris basically said he agrees with HIS OWN report from when he was PSNI deputy chief. That report DID NOT say that an army council controls SF, but that individual IRA people believe that an army council oversees SF. So the story has been deliberately skewed to deliver a false narrative. So only the dishonest or the stupid are claiming that he said he believes SF are controlled by an army council. Which is it in your case?

And again, why aren't you concerned by Drew Harris' past, considering his current position?

Well regardless of what Drew Harris really thinks or what any of us think about him, it's pretty clear that Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson have control and oversight of Sinn Fein in the 6 counties. And given they always go on about being the only party who are both north and south, it's probably safe to assume the 3 lads have a similar arrangement with Mary Lou?

Can you tell us more about the 3 men, just so we know who'll be leading us in the future? There was a journalist on Dunphy's podcast last week who said Howell probably played a part in the IRA laying down their arms, but nothing else really about them (other than going through the evidence of how they seemed to be controlling O'Muilleor)

Is it safe to assume that the likes of Denis O'Brien, Larry Goodman, Ben Dunne etc have had control and oversight of previous Irish governments?
Ah whatabouttery!!

It's all grand so because in the past some people had a politician or 2 in their pocket!

I'm trying to clarify and square off your views here, so far I'm getting:

- It's acceptable for political parties to accept bribes from wealthy businessmen that shape government policy and decision making
- It's unaccaeptable for a political party to take consult external advisors on matters that shape government policy and decisions

What you call whataboutery I call balance and context and the balance and the context in this matter says you are a knot of contradictions and your outrage and concerns are both staged and theatrical.
Where did anyone say it's acceptable for a politician to accept bribes?
It was a great day when Ray Burke and others went to jail. Just not half enough of them were caught.

But back to today! So are you refusing to answer the question about Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson or do you have no clue either about who the leaders and directors of Sinn Fein are?

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?

Not enough is known about this.

But we know that Denis O'Brien controls a large part of the Irish media and whilst Leo spoke rather hysterically today about SF trying to bully and intimidate their way into government, you could argue that Denis O'Brien through the power of his legal team has done similar to frighten off anybody who dare scrutinise him.     
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:56:32 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:39:19 PM

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?
your whattaboutery and refusal to answer the question is getting very boring. Don't reply to me and leave it to someone else if you can't answer the question. Maybe you just don't know. That's fine, but please go off on your tangents on some other thread rather than in response to me! 

I don't know that I have any issue with Ted Howell. The Dunphy podcast was the first I heard of him. I want to learn more about the future co-leader of our country so I can decide for myself. The issue doesn't seem a surprise to the Shinners on here so I'm sure someone can have a go.

It's balance and context, you're just a bit too dim to be able to square off your contradictions.

What we can see here is that you are absolutely steadfast in your reluctance to look at the two establishment parties down South and the decades of corruption that they have engaged in.

I haven't avoided any question. I have stated I don't have an issue with SF consulting people like Ted Howell (that's a reiteration) -  you do, which is confusing given your reluctance to address decades of corruption in both FF and FG and how the people who the strings for those parties, who historically have been wealthy businessmen with brown envelopers, offshore accounts and other gifts.

It's a huge contradiction, I can't help that you aren't able to explain your rationale behind that contradiction but feel free to try again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 04:06:53 PM
The idea that Michael Martin, the man who had his wife lodge money from a property developer into her account and subsequently doesn't remember introducing said property developer to then Taoiseach Bertie Aherne despite the meetings being recorded in diaries, is worried about the democratic practices of SF and who runs the party is risible.

Said property developer then made illegal payments to said Taoiseach.

And he has a problem with who might be running other parties.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 24, 2020, 04:09:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:56:32 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:39:19 PM

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?
your whattaboutery and refusal to answer the question is getting very boring. Don't reply to me and leave it to someone else if you can't answer the question. Maybe you just don't know. That's fine, but please go off on your tangents on some other thread rather than in response to me! 

I don't know that I have any issue with Ted Howell. The Dunphy podcast was the first I heard of him. I want to learn more about the future co-leader of our country so I can decide for myself. The issue doesn't seem a surprise to the Shinners on here so I'm sure someone can have a go.

It's balance and context, you're just a bit too dim to be able to square off your contradictions.

What we can see here is that you are absolutely steadfast in your reluctance to look at the two establishment parties down South and the decades of corruption that they have engaged in.

I haven't avoided any question. I have stated I don't have an issue with SF consulting people like Ted Howell (that's a reiteration) -  you do, which is confusing given your reluctance to address decades of corruption in both FF and FG and how the people who the strings for those parties, who historically have been wealthy businessmen with brown envelopers, offshore accounts and other gifts.

It's a huge contradiction, I can't help that you aren't able to explain your rationale behind that contradiction but feel free to try again.
Jeezus, you're a boring fooker.
You've bored everyone to death on the NFL1 thread by replying 57 times that your lad should not have got a red. Just because 57 people disagree with you doesn't mean you have to reply every time to repeat the same shite. Everyone knows your view. Leave it alone.
Likewise, here I know you think that FF and FG have had decades of corruption. I don't disagree but I could not care less what you think about TDs who were corrupt from any party.
If they're sent to jail then I will cheer from the rooftops.

I am interested in learning more about our future co-leaders Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson. Is Ted more important than the other two? You seem to be focusing on him (I hope he's not on to you). But you probably know nothing about them, so if that's the case leave it to someone else please, or go back to boring everyone to death on the Div 1 thread.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: BennyCake on February 24, 2020, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2020, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 24, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 22, 2020, 05:43:11 PM
Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

Of course for some it will still be an issue. I don't believe that if there are any figures giving advice in the background that they are still actively directing terrorism. Personally I think it would be best that SF are not admitted into government this time but it is going to happen sooner or later.  Are Fine Gael going to wait until all of the former IRA figures have died off before they will consider going into government then? Some people are so set in their thinking and feel so threatened as the old established order comes under threat, that they simply can't countenance SF in government at any stage be that now or in 15 years time. Unfortunately that is not democracy either.         

Surely excluding the most popular party from government is not democracy either? And as for the IRA, you don't seriously think that FG/FF's concern is actually about the IRA? It's extinct FFS. FF & FG are purely concerned about power & self-preservation and that requires stemming the SF tide at all costs and if that means going so far as to risk the peace process by trying desperately to conjure up the IRA at every opportunity, then so be it. They are morally bankrupt.

Yup, totally agree.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 04:15:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 04:09:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:56:32 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 24, 2020, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 03:39:19 PM

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?
your whattaboutery and refusal to answer the question is getting very boring. Don't reply to me and leave it to someone else if you can't answer the question. Maybe you just don't know. That's fine, but please go off on your tangents on some other thread rather than in response to me! 

I don't know that I have any issue with Ted Howell. The Dunphy podcast was the first I heard of him. I want to learn more about the future co-leader of our country so I can decide for myself. The issue doesn't seem a surprise to the Shinners on here so I'm sure someone can have a go.

It's balance and context, you're just a bit too dim to be able to square off your contradictions.

What we can see here is that you are absolutely steadfast in your reluctance to look at the two establishment parties down South and the decades of corruption that they have engaged in.

I haven't avoided any question. I have stated I don't have an issue with SF consulting people like Ted Howell (that's a reiteration) -  you do, which is confusing given your reluctance to address decades of corruption in both FF and FG and how the people who the strings for those parties, who historically have been wealthy businessmen with brown envelopers, offshore accounts and other gifts.

It's a huge contradiction, I can't help that you aren't able to explain your rationale behind that contradiction but feel free to try again.
Jeezus, you're a boring fooker.
You've bored everyone to death on the NFL1 thread by replying 57 times that your lad should not have got a red. Just because 57 people disagree with you doesn't mean you have to reply every time to repeat the same shite. Everyone knows your view. Leave it alone.
Likewise, here I know you think that FF and FG have had decades of corruption. I don't disagree but I could not care less what you think about TDs who were corrupt from any party.
If they're sent to jail then I will cheer from the rooftops.

I am interested in learning more about our future co-leaders Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson. Is Ted more important than the other two? You seem to be focusing on him (I hope he's not on to you). But you probably know nothing about them, so if that's the case leave it to someone else please, or go back to boring everyone to death on the Div 1 thread.

You could not care less about FF FG corruption. I already gathered that but nice at the same time for you to admit it.

I don't see it as a huge issue, they seem to be trusted by the party for the advice and consultation.

Leo Varadkar spends half a million on his spin doctors a year, are you worried about that?

All I have pointed out is that your focus is extremely odd, you seem to not give a jot about corruption and you get incredibly hostile and abusive when this is brought into the debate.

Maybe you should go and have a cup of tea, sweetheart.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: BennyCake on February 24, 2020, 04:17:58 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 11:57:42 AM
Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 24, 2020, 04:17:58 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 11:57:42 AM
Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?

Careful now, the establishment shills will accuse you of whataboutery.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 24, 2020, 05:37:10 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 24, 2020, 04:17:58 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 11:57:42 AM
Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?
He terrorised the fck out of the RIC and the Cairo gang among others.
He was acting on behalf of Dáil Éireann representing a majority of the Irish people who voted for a pro Independence party.
That's in the past like 1970-1998.
Anyway why isnt Maryloo trying to convert enough of those who abstained or voted against her Taoiseach nomination rather than having rallies?
There are 6 SPD, 9 "Regional Group" Indos 5 Matty McGrath Group Indos and 12 Greens.
That's 32 plus the 45 who voted for her.
Try and get Labour to abstain on the Taoiseach vote and she wins 77-76.
Maybe try and get Harkin and Fitzmaurice to vote for her or abstain. That's 77 or 79 v 74.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 24, 2020, 05:47:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 24, 2020, 05:37:10 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 24, 2020, 04:17:58 PM
Quote from: mouview on February 24, 2020, 11:57:42 AM
Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?
He terrorised the fck out of the RIC and the Cairo gang among others.
He was acting on behalf of Dáil Éireann representing a majority of the Irish people who voted for a pro Independence party.
That's in the past like 1970-1998.
Anyway why isnt Maryloo trying to convert enough of those who abstained or voted against her Taoiseach nomination rather than having rallies?
There are 6 SPD, 9 "Regional Group" Indos 5 Matty McGrath Group Indos and 12 Greens.
That's 32 plus the 45 who voted for her.
Try and get Labour to abstain on the Taoiseach vote and she wins 77-76.
Maybe try and get Harkin and Fitzmaurice to vote for her or abstain. That's 77 or 79 v 74.

Don't forget the civilians and informants too.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 24, 2020, 05:57:50 PM
Rallies are fine so long as they are not a protest against our parliamentary democracy. Fianna Fáil often were the most popular party in the 40%+ range but were denied a place in government due to a coalition of FG and Labour. Mary Lou could indeed be Taoiseach if SF can get rest on board but I suspect after meeting the Greens discovered their worst fears: they are Fine Gaelers on Bikes, as the Phoenix memorably put it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 24, 2020, 06:48:34 PM
And around 14 Independents are dissident FFrs and FGrs.
However compromise is part of politics and compromise she (or Ted Howell or whoever ;D) will have to do if she wants to be Taoiseach as tgere are only 57 leftish TDs in the Dáil.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 25, 2020, 12:08:47 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 24, 2020, 05:57:50 PM
Rallies are fine so long as they are not a protest against our parliamentary democracy. Fianna Fáil often were the most popular party in the 40%+ range but were denied a place in government due to a coalition of FG and Labour. Mary Lou could indeed be Taoiseach if SF can get rest on board but I suspect after meeting the Greens discovered their worst fears: they are Fine Gaelers on Bikes, as the Phoenix memorably put it.

;D ;D ;D
One of the most accurate characterisations of an Irish political party ive heard in a wile
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 09:36:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 24, 2020, 06:48:34 PM
And around 14 Independents are dissident FFrs and FGrs.
However compromise is part of politics and compromise she (or Ted Howell or whoever ;D) will have to do if she wants to be Taoiseach as tgere are only 57 leftish TDs in the Dáil.

Your underlying point stands but I can get into the 70's on leftish TD's without stretching it too much. SF + Green + SD + Lab+ PbP = 66. Plus Toibín*, Joan Collins, Catherine Connolly, Thomas Pringle, Carol Nolan*, Michael McNamara. That's 73 though I accept SF would have trouble with their former members*. I'd expect Harkin and and Cathal Berry to be easy to get onside in terms of policy. It starts to get difficult after that though a lot of the former FF/FG cohort and well as the right wingers like Grealish would do a deal with anyone. So I don't think SF's prospects of leading a government are totally dead but when you do the numbers it gets harder. Especially with Labour going out on strike in favour of their former coalition partners.

If the Greens go in with FF/FG I'll never give them a vote again. I also believe a FF/FG led government, while awful, would guarantee a left wing government next time. And destroy one or both of those parties. Which is a good second prize.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 25, 2020, 09:56:47 AM
A FF/FG/Greens Government which would take serious steps to deal with the housing crisis and get on with implementing Sláintecare might well send SF back to their 15% or worse.
However the chances of FF/FG doing the above are slim based on the last 3 years.
They'd need to "CHANGE"
But in the meantime SF need to do more than repeating  the mantra "people voted for change'.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Ya - I'd put the chances of FF/FG/Green delivering on Housing, Healthcare and the environment at about 10%. I'd give a SF government about a 40% chance of delivering assuming they got the stability needed to take the decisions needed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 25, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Ya - I'd put the chances of FF/FG/Green delivering on Housing, Healthcare and the environment at about 10%. I'd give a SF government about a 40% chance of delivering assuming they got the stability needed to take the decisions needed.

10% too generous for the former. 40% for the latter.

The Greens and Green-influenced FF/FG want no new housing, anywhere. SF want new state-built housing but the state hasn't the funds and borrowing tens of billions more is no longer an option since 2010.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 04:51:55 PM
Quote from: five points on February 25, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Ya - I'd put the chances of FF/FG/Green delivering on Housing, Healthcare and the environment at about 10%. I'd give a SF government about a 40% chance of delivering assuming they got the stability needed to take the decisions needed.

10% too generous for the former. 40% for the latter.

The Greens and Green-influenced FF/FG want no new housing, anywhere. SF want new state-built housing but the state hasn't the funds and borrowing tens of billions more is no longer an option since 2010.

I'm an optimist!

I understand there's €6.7 Billion available by running a smaller surplus and investing monies received from NAMA and not paying down the National Debt with it. Obviously all dependent on everything not going tits up which hasn't been helped by Leo's facilitation of Boris Johnson's re-election with a pretend deal when he was dead in a ditch.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 25, 2020, 05:17:23 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 04:51:55 PM
Quote from: five points on February 25, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Ya - I'd put the chances of FF/FG/Green delivering on Housing, Healthcare and the environment at about 10%. I'd give a SF government about a 40% chance of delivering assuming they got the stability needed to take the decisions needed.

10% too generous for the former. 40% for the latter.

The Greens and Green-influenced FF/FG want no new housing, anywhere. SF want new state-built housing but the state hasn't the funds and borrowing tens of billions more is no longer an option since 2010.

I'm an optimist!

I understand there's €6.7 Billion available by running a smaller surplus and investing monies received from NAMA and not paying down the National Debt with it. Obviously all dependent on everything not going tits up which hasn't been helped by Leo's facilitation of Boris Johnson's re-election with a pretend deal when he was dead in a ditch.

Not using Nama money for the debt is the same as borrowing. There would be more for housing if SF weren't determined to give handouts to their supporters, for example they voted to reduce the property tax in Dublin city council intead of using the money for homeless shelters or housing. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 25, 2020, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 04:51:55 PM

I'm an optimist!

I understand there's €6.7 Billion available by running a smaller surplus and investing monies received from NAMA and not paying down the National Debt with it. Obviously all dependent on everything not going tits up which hasn't been helped by Leo's facilitation of Boris Johnson's re-election with a pretend deal when he was dead in a ditch.

Just for perspective, €6.7bn would build 25,800 houses at a standard build cost of €250,000 a pop. (The experience of the Children's Hospital suggests that's probably optimistic.) I reckon that's way too little to solve the housing crisis and we need at least 4 times that number of new homes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 25, 2020, 05:35:01 PM
Some pages back I threw in a few ideas that would get those who can afford mortgages (about 66% of rental costs in the east and other urban areas) buying without costing the State anything.
Also how NAMA could build lots of affordable houses for people not able for the full Commercial market again at no cost to the State - quite the contrary as VAT and a site cost would leave them with €€€€a.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 25, 2020, 06:14:47 PM
Quote from: five points on February 25, 2020, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 25, 2020, 04:51:55 PM

I'm an optimist!

I understand there's €6.7 Billion available by running a smaller surplus and investing monies received from NAMA and not paying down the National Debt with it. Obviously all dependent on everything not going tits up which hasn't been helped by Leo's facilitation of Boris Johnson's re-election with a pretend deal when he was dead in a ditch.

Just for perspective, €6.7bn would build 25,800 houses at a standard build cost of €250,000 a pop. (The experience of the Children's Hospital suggests that's probably optimistic.) I reckon that's way too little to solve the housing crisis and we need at least 4 times that number of new homes.

The problem cannot be solved in 5 years, whatever chancer is in power, unless the Coronavirus is really bad.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 25, 2020, 09:30:16 PM
Michael Fitzmaurice and Marian Harkin joining a "Technical Group" with Pringle, McNamara, Joan Collins and the Connolly lady from Galway.
6 votes for Maryloo?
Leo and Mícheál met today. To meet again some time in the future as FG are letting FF off to try and form a Government.

Update26/2 - there wont be any nominations for Taoiseach on 5th March per RTÉ news tonight.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 27, 2020, 08:25:04 AM
So with all the Shinners on here, there's still not one that can give some information on Mary Lou's bosses Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson?

Your are the kings of whatabouterry though!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 09:23:09 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 27, 2020, 08:25:04 AM
So with all the Shinners on here, there's still not one that can give some information on Mary Lou's bosses Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson?

Your are the kings of whatabouterry though!

They're senior party advisers like Alasdair Campbell to Tony Blair, Cummins to Boris and Denis O'Brien to Charley Haughey..
8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 27, 2020, 09:33:30 AM
Sinn Féin had one of their information meetings/rallies in Newry last night.
Not too many Dáil votes there though.
Meanwhile the FF and FG playing hard to get  courtship has advanced to exchanging policy documents next week.
Presumably the end result will be FG reluctantly "in the National interest" voting for Martin as Taoiseach (or preferably abstaining if MM get 63 votes on board) and then voting on an issue by issue basis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 27, 2020, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 09:23:09 AM

They're senior party advisers like Alasdair Campbell to Tony Blair, Cummins to Boris and Denis O'Brien to Charley Haughey..
8)

What's the link between Denis O'Brien and Charlie Haughey? Genuine question.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: north_antrim_hound on February 27, 2020, 10:23:45 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 27, 2020, 09:33:30 AM
Sinn Féin had one of their information meetings/rallies in Newry last night.
Not too many Dáil votes there though.
Meanwhile the FF and FG playing hard to get  courtship has advanced to exchanging policy documents next week.
Presumably the end result will be FG reluctantly "in the National interest" voting for Martin as Taoiseach (or preferably abstaining if MM get 63 votes on board) and then voting on an issue by issue basis.

That seems to be the plan, get back in and throw up some house quick and sort out a few hospital beds before the next elections  to keep the disgruntled masses from migrating to SF again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:27:00 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 09:23:09 AM

They're senior party advisers like Alasdair Campbell to Tony Blair, Cummins to Boris and Denis O'Brien to Charley Haughey..
8)

What's the link between Denis O'Brien and Charlie Haughey? Genuine question.

Denis assisted Charlie and Michael Lowry in advising on Mobile phone licenses being awarded in Ireland which just so happened to be his company....

Have a wee look at the Moriarty Tribunal

Beware of another Rainbow (or Grand as they might call it) Coalition
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 27, 2020, 10:33:30 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:27:00 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 09:58:52 AM

What's the link between Denis O'Brien and Charlie Haughey? Genuine question.

Denis assisted Charlie and Michael Lowry in advising on Mobile phone licenses being awarded in Ireland which just so happened to be his company....

Have a wee look at the Moriarty Tribunal

Beware of another Rainbow (or Grand as they might call it) Coalition

Haughey was gone from office in February 1992. Lowry only became a minister in December 1994.

The competition for the the second mobile phone licence took place in 1995 and was won by O'Brien's Esat Digifone. Haughey had nothing whatsoever to do with this.



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:35:07 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 10:33:30 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:27:00 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 09:58:52 AM

What's the link between Denis O'Brien and Charlie Haughey? Genuine question.

Denis assisted Charlie and Michael Lowry in advising on Mobile phone licenses being awarded in Ireland which just so happened to be his company....

Have a wee look at the Moriarty Tribunal

Beware of another Rainbow (or Grand as they might call it) Coalition

Haughey was gone from office in February 1992. Lowry only became a minister in December 1994.

The competition for the the second mobile phone licence took place in 1995 and was won by O'Brien's Esat Digifone. Haughey had nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Your right, apologies, it was the Dunnes he liked instead
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 11:12:21 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:35:07 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 10:33:30 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:27:00 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 09:58:52 AM

What's the link between Denis O'Brien and Charlie Haughey? Genuine question.

Denis assisted Charlie and Michael Lowry in advising on Mobile phone licenses being awarded in Ireland which just so happened to be his company....

Have a wee look at the Moriarty Tribunal

Beware of another Rainbow (or Grand as they might call it) Coalition

Haughey was gone from office in February 1992. Lowry only became a minister in December 1994.

The competition for the the second mobile phone licence took place in 1995 and was won by O'Brien's Esat Digifone. Haughey had nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Your right, apologies, it was the Dunnes he liked instead

No need to apologise.

FF and FG are so intertwined in corruption it can be very hard to keep track of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Keyser soze on February 27, 2020, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 27, 2020, 08:25:04 AM
So with all the Shinners on here, there's still not one that can give some information on Mary Lou's bosses Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson?

Your are the kings of whatabouterry though!

Well you seem to be the one in the know about how these 3 people are controlling SF so why don't you produce the evidence?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 11:12:21 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:35:07 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 10:33:30 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 10:27:00 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 09:58:52 AM

What's the link between Denis O'Brien and Charlie Haughey? Genuine question.

Denis assisted Charlie and Michael Lowry in advising on Mobile phone licenses being awarded in Ireland which just so happened to be his company....

Have a wee look at the Moriarty Tribunal

Beware of another Rainbow (or Grand as they might call it) Coalition

Haughey was gone from office in February 1992. Lowry only became a minister in December 1994.

The competition for the the second mobile phone licence took place in 1995 and was won by O'Brien's Esat Digifone. Haughey had nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Your right, apologies, it was the Dunnes he liked instead

No need to apologise.

FF and FG are so intertwined in corruption it can be very hard to keep track of it.

Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 11:26:39 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 27, 2020, 08:25:04 AM
So with all the Shinners on here, there's still not one that can give some information on Mary Lou's bosses Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson?

Your are the kings of whatabouterry though!

You are the king of contradictions.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...

Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...

Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...

Harping on about?

Why are you trying to bury talk about state corruption that has been endemic with the two establishment parties in the 26 since its conception?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...

Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...

Harping on about?

Why are you trying to bury talk about state corruption that has been endemic with the two establishment parties in the 26 since its conception?

Rebutting something is hardly burying it, although it escapes me what the precise problem is with burying something that is factually incorrect.

The idea of the Shinners presenting themselves as some sort of anti-corruption movement is funny though. Two words: Priory Hall.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:59:36 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...


Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...

this was all going on in the 90's, the ceasefire happened in 1994 albeit the Canary Wharf bomb went off after that with the GFA in 1998, but somehow the Army Council is relevant in 2020 yet the goings on in FF and FG during the same time period isn't.

To sum it up Old IRA good, New IRA bad.

Shinners have enough holes in their manifesto without throwing out the same old tired diatribe.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 12:15:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...

Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...

Harping on about?

Why are you trying to bury talk about state corruption that has been endemic with the two establishment parties in the 26 since its conception?

Rebutting something is hardly burying it, although it escapes me what the precise problem is with burying something that is factually incorrect.

The idea of the Shinners presenting themselves as some sort of anti-corruption movement is funny though. Two words: Priory Hall.

You haven't rebutted it, you have said there is no need to discuss it.

It's extremely pertinent that there is a sickening culture of corruption in the two establishment parties in the 26 and you think it shouldn't be discussed, that's what you've said - no rebuttal - just a stance not to discuss it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 27, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:59:36 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...


Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...

this was all going on in the 90's, the ceasefire happened in 1994 albeit the Canary Wharf bomb went off after that with the GFA in 1998, but somehow the Army Council is relevant in 2020 yet the goings on in FF and FG during the same time period isn't.

To sum it up Old IRA good, New IRA bad.

Shinners have enough holes in their manifesto without throwing out the same old tired diatribe.

The Old IRA were just as sh*t as the Provos and all the other modern successors. It is impossible for a country to bomb and shoot its way to prosperity. The 26 counties didn't recover from the War of Independence until about 1970.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 27, 2020, 01:15:49 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 27, 2020, 12:15:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:48:05 AM
Rebutting something is hardly burying it, although it escapes me what the precise problem is with burying something that is factually incorrect.

The idea of the Shinners presenting themselves as some sort of anti-corruption movement is funny though. Two words: Priory Hall.

You haven't rebutted it, you have said there is no need to discuss it.

It's extremely pertinent that there is a sickening culture of corruption in the two establishment parties in the 26 and you think it shouldn't be discussed, that's what you've said - no rebuttal - just a stance not to discuss it.

When you're discussing a politician who is almost 30 years out of power and half of that period dead, you're in the realms of history. There is most certainly no need to not discuss history, but history has its limits in terms of current and future affairs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 27, 2020, 02:27:13 PM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:59:36 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...


Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...

this was all going on in the 90's, the ceasefire happened in 1994 albeit the Canary Wharf bomb went off after that with the GFA in 1998, but somehow the Army Council is relevant in 2020 yet the goings on in FF and FG during the same time period isn't.

To sum it up Old IRA good, New IRA bad.

Shinners have enough holes in their manifesto without throwing out the same old tired diatribe.

The Old IRA were just as sh*t as the Provos and all the other modern successors. It is impossible for a country to bomb and shoot its way to prosperity. The 26 counties didn't recover from the War of Independence until about 1970.
Unfortunately, that is very true. All of my grandparents were shinners and all backed Dev during the civil war  and every one of them said that not all of the IRA and their supporters were noble freedom fighters, prepared to die for the Cause.
There were plenty who were more me feiners than sinn feiners- to put it mildly. I'm talking about east Mayo but I've no reason to think that other places were much different. A few farms changed under mysterious circumstances. Money that was collected for the cause and levies imposed on shopkeepers and on other business people were diverted along the way and some patriots wound up far richer at the end of the Troubles than  they were at the beginning.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 02:32:58 PM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:59:36 AM
Quote from: five points on February 27, 2020, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
Indeed.
Between Ansbacher accounts for tax avoidance and hidden payments from god knows where, Mahon tribunal, Moriarty tribunal, Beef tribunal and whatever else the integrity of FF and FG are very much dubious to say the least.

At least the legal class got very rich on the back of it all, so every cloud and all that!

but Army Council blah blah blah...


Absolutely no harm in making a mistake, but harping on at this stage about Haughey and Ansbacher accounts is a bit old hat by now. O'Brien and Lowry less so as they're both still in public life.

Then there are those who enriched themselves on the back on the armed 'struggle'...

this was all going on in the 90's, the ceasefire happened in 1994 albeit the Canary Wharf bomb went off after that with the GFA in 1998, but somehow the Army Council is relevant in 2020 yet the goings on in FF and FG during the same time period isn't.

To sum it up Old IRA good, New IRA bad.

Shinners have enough holes in their manifesto without throwing out the same old tired diatribe.

The Old IRA were just as sh*t as the Provos and all the other modern successors. It is impossible for a country to bomb and shoot its way to prosperity. The 26 counties didn't recover from the War of Independence until about 1970.

The Old IRA, like the New IRA were people of their time and circumstances, the only difference being 60 odd years in history.

Those times and circumstances have changed thankfully, so lets do grown up politicking without the cheap shots from those in glass houses is all that I'm saying.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 27, 2020, 02:38:55 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 27, 2020, 02:32:58 PM
The Old IRA, like the New IRA were people of their time and circumstances, the only difference being 60 odd years in history.

Those times and circumstances have changed thankfully, so lets do grown up politicking without the cheap shots from those in glass houses is all that I'm saying.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 27, 2020, 03:36:07 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on February 27, 2020, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: Hound on February 27, 2020, 08:25:04 AM
So with all the Shinners on here, there's still not one that can give some information on Mary Lou's bosses Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson?

Your are the kings of whatabouterry though!

Well you seem to be the one in the know about how these 3 people are controlling SF so why don't you produce the evidence?

I'm certainly not in the know about Sinn Fein! But did you read the evidence from the Cash for Ash enquiry?

A great example of the DUP and SF working together actually. Both enjoy ripping off the UK exchequer!

The scandal was completely DUP led, but SF helped keep it going for a bit longer than they should have. It was clear from the evidence provided that Sinn Fein needed permission from the three amigos before making any decisions. SF say they are one All Ireland party (to be commended), so it's hardly likely the 3 lads only look after the northern end.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 29, 2020, 09:53:29 PM
FF and FG definitely to form an Governnent so

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/sinn-fein-surges-ahead-of-fianna-fail-in-first-post-election-opinion-poll-39002641.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on March 01, 2020, 10:56:47 PM
The most enjoyable thing about polls like that is it is showing the print media of this country that sold their souls that the people dont give a flying f**k what they write.

I see Ogra FF have voted against a Coalition with FG, will we see a split in FF? I imagine O Cuiv is not alone in saying that Martin is very wrong to rule out talking to Sinn Fein.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on March 02, 2020, 11:30:17 AM
Surely the time has come Fianna Fail to disband, with absence of identity their support base will deteriorate in numbers according to the death rate and those entering infirmed elderly state.
Fine Gael will always get new members according to traditional demographics and could swallow up what passes for Fiana Fail poliitics without a hiccup.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on March 02, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
Talk now that there will be votes for Taoiseach on Thursday.
Presumably only Martin and McDonald will be proposed (and defeated) ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: playwiththewind1st on March 02, 2020, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 02, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
Talk now that there will be votes for Taoiseach on Thursday.
Presumably only Martin and McDonald will be proposed (and defeated) ?

Arlene Foster - compromise candidate!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on April 04, 2020, 12:26:48 AM
Counting in the Seanad election complete.
Seems FF have 16, Blueshirts 12, Shinners 5 (incl E McCallion) Indos 9
Didnt check the rest. New Taoiseach will nominate 11.
Dont know if it matters any more but Alan Kelly will be the new Labour leader.
Will hardly be a success as he tells it as it is ......unless that will be the way to go in the post Covid world?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on April 04, 2020, 10:27:30 AM
There should be another election once the all Irelands are over.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 04, 2020, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 04, 2020, 12:26:48 AM
Counting in the Seanad election complete.
Seems FF have 16, Blueshirts 12, Shinners 5 (incl E McCallion) Indos 9
Didnt check the rest. New Taoiseach will nominate 11.
Dont know if it matters any more but Alan Kelly will ne the bee Labour leader.
Will hardly be a success as he tells it as it is ......unless that will be the way to go in the post Covid world?

Elisha, wtf, Sinn féin nepotism at its greatest. Well good luck to yous
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: northsideboy on April 04, 2020, 03:29:50 PM
Whats the scéal there? She did particularly poorly in the Westminster election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on April 04, 2020, 04:45:45 PM
No handy numbers left in the 6 Cos I suppose.
Hopefully LeoMícheál will renominate that Marshall chap so as  to have a Unionist voice there again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: bennydorano on April 04, 2020, 05:26:12 PM
Assuming that's the fella from Markethill he was in the papers on Thursday saying it was very unlikely he'd be reselected, he wasn't too impressed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on April 04, 2020, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 04, 2020, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 04, 2020, 12:26:48 AM
Counting in the Seanad election complete.
Seems FF have 16, Blueshirts 12, Shinners 5 (incl E McCallion) Indos 9
Didnt check the rest. New Taoiseach will nominate 11.
Dont know if it matters any more but Alan Kelly will ne the bee Labour leader.
Will hardly be a success as he tells it as it is ......unless that will be the way to go in the post Covid world?

Elisha, wtf, Sinn féin nepotism at its greatest. Well good luck to yous

They don't even try to hide it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: APM on April 04, 2020, 10:10:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on April 04, 2020, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 04, 2020, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 04, 2020, 12:26:48 AM
Counting in the Seanad election complete.
Seems FF have 16, Blueshirts 12, Shinners 5 (incl E McCallion) Indos 9
Didnt check the rest. New Taoiseach will nominate 11.
Dont know if it matters any more but Alan Kelly will ne the bee Labour leader.
Will hardly be a success as he tells it as it is ......unless that will be the way to go in the post Covid world?

Elisha, wtf, Sinn féin nepotism at its greatest. Well good luck to yous

They don't even try to hide it.

They are only following a long tradition of Irish Politics.  The entire history of southern politics has been littered with nepotism and some fairly ropey politicians along with some good ones.   

Bernard Cowan, Barry Cowan, Brian Cowan
Sean Lemass, Noel Lemass, Eileen Lemass
Charlie Haughey, Sean Haughey
Patrick Lenihan, Brian Lenihan, Snr and Jr, Conor Lenihan, Mary O'Rourke
Phelim Calleary, Sean Calleary, Dara Calleary
P Flynn, Beverley Cooper Flynn
The Healy Raes
Shane McEntee, Helen McEntee
John Bruton, Richard Bruton
Oliver J Flannagan, Charlie Flannagan
Enda Kenny, Henry Kenny
Eamon O'Cuiv, Eamon de Valera

Same in the North:

The Dodds Family
The Paisley Family
Carmel Hanna, Claire Hanna
Mark Durkan, Mark H Durkan
Roy Beggs, Roy Beggs Jnr
Alex Maskey, Paul Maskey

I could go on, but that would require more thinking than I could be bothered with on a Saturday night. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on April 04, 2020, 10:48:13 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on April 04, 2020, 05:26:12 PM
Assuming that's the fella from Markethill he was in the papers on Thursday saying it was very unlikely he'd be reselected, he wasn't too impressed.

He was a "Brexit" person, perhaps they should appoint a "medical" person in the present scenario.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hardy on April 05, 2020, 11:10:48 AM
Quote from: APM on April 04, 2020, 10:10:50 PM


They are only following a long tradition of Irish Politics.  The entire history of southern politics has been littered with nepotism and some fairly ropey politicians along with some good ones.   

The Healy Raes


Every time I'm tempted to laugh at the Yanks for electing Trump, I remember the Healy-Raes.
Danny Healy-Rae thanks China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOBjXm_X7Ao&t=4m45s)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on April 05, 2020, 11:25:40 AM
Quote from: Hardy on April 05, 2020, 11:10:48 AM
Quote from: APM on April 04, 2020, 10:10:50 PM


They are only following a long tradition of Irish Politics.  The entire history of southern politics has been littered with nepotism and some fairly ropey politicians along with some good ones.   

The Healy Raes


Every time I'm tempted to laugh at the Yanks for electing Trump, I remember the Healy-Raes.
Danny Healy-Rae thanks China (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOBjXm_X7Ao&t=4m45s)

The eh eh eh eh PPE shtuff that we need
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Saffrongael on April 05, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
Quote from: APM on April 04, 2020, 10:10:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on April 04, 2020, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 04, 2020, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 04, 2020, 12:26:48 AM
Counting in the Seanad election complete.
Seems FF have 16, Blueshirts 12, Shinners 5 (incl E McCallion) Indos 9
Didnt check the rest. New Taoiseach will nominate 11.
Dont know if it matters any more but Alan Kelly will ne the bee Labour leader.
Will hardly be a success as he tells it as it is ......unless that will be the way to go in the post Covid world?

Elisha, wtf, Sinn féin nepotism at its greatest. Well good luck to yous

They don't even try to hide it.

They are only following a long tradition of Irish Politics.  The entire history of southern politics has been littered with nepotism and some fairly ropey politicians along with some good ones.   

Bernard Cowan, Barry Cowan, Brian Cowan
Sean Lemass, Noel Lemass, Eileen Lemass
Charlie Haughey, Sean Haughey
Patrick Lenihan, Brian Lenihan, Snr and Jr, Conor Lenihan, Mary O'Rourke
Phelim Calleary, Sean Calleary, Dara Calleary
P Flynn, Beverley Cooper Flynn
The Healy Raes
Shane McEntee, Helen McEntee
John Bruton, Richard Bruton
Oliver J Flannagan, Charlie Flannagan
Enda Kenny, Henry Kenny
Eamon O'Cuiv, Eamon de Valera

Same in the North:

The Dodds Family
The Paisley Family
Carmel Hanna, Claire Hanna
Mark Durkan, Mark H Durkan
Roy Beggs, Roy Beggs Jnr
Alex Maskey, Paul Maskey

I could go on, but that would require more thinking than I could be bothered with on a Saturday night.

You can add another Maskey to that list, Conor Maskey, who SF placed into the vacant John Finucane Belfast City Council seat
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on April 16, 2020, 02:31:45 PM
Are FF and FG merging now?

8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on April 16, 2020, 04:41:18 PM
Not till the 100th Anniversary of the split on the Treaty...Jan 22?
They need at least 8 more TDs to join them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 16, 2020, 05:16:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 16, 2020, 04:41:18 PM
Not till the 100th Anniversary of the split on the Treaty...Jan 22?
They need at least 8 more TDs to join them.

Twas a long peace process. Any funding going for thst sort of thing
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on April 16, 2020, 05:21:52 PM
The Brits must owe us around €750Bn in reparations anyway?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 16, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 16, 2020, 05:21:52 PM
The Brits must owe us around €750Bn in reparations anyway?

At least
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on April 16, 2020, 10:17:13 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on April 16, 2020, 02:31:45 PM
Are FF and FG merging now?

8)

Per Brendan Behan, the first item on the agenda of their newly formed government will be the split.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on April 17, 2020, 08:41:24 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 04, 2020, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 04, 2020, 12:26:48 AM
Counting in the Seanad election complete.
Seems FF have 16, Blueshirts 12, Shinners 5 (incl E McCallion) Indos 9
Didnt check the rest. New Taoiseach will nominate 11.
Dont know if it matters any more but Alan Kelly will ne the bee Labour leader.
Will hardly be a success as he tells it as it is ......unless that will be the way to go in the post Covid world?

Elisha, wtf, Sinn féin nepotism at its greatest. Well good luck to yous
Not condoning it but all parties do this, Dodds as an MLA for example. But McCallion and her aunt Martina are the biggest problem SF have in Derry.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on June 11, 2020, 09:25:03 PM
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1271056823714545664

Eamon Ryan in hot water for this with some amongst his own party. Could be just me but I can't see a whole pile wrong with it, he was retelling the story of a kid who was racially abused
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tyrdub on June 12, 2020, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 16, 2020, 05:21:52 PM
The Brits must owe us around €750Bn in reparations anyway?

That's only a billion per year, give or take.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2020, 04:32:23 PM
Looks like there might be white smoke?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0614/1147306-government-formation-talks/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on June 14, 2020, 05:28:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2020, 04:32:23 PM
Looks like there might be white smoke?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0614/1147306-government-formation-talks/

Long way to go I'd say. Would want to be seriously good for Green Party membership to give it the 2/3rd majority it needs. It surely must include a major stimulus package to get the economy going again, but it the right, sustainable direction.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: skeog on June 14, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
Sinn Fein will do well in opposition expect Mary Lou to be Taoiseach in 2025.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 14, 2020, 05:28:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2020, 04:32:23 PM
Looks like there might be white smoke?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0614/1147306-government-formation-talks/

Long way to go I'd say. Would want to be seriously good for Green Party membership to give it the 2/3rd majority it needs. It surely must include a major stimulus package to get the economy going again, but it the right, sustainable direction.
I'd expect the Greens to go for it with Ms Martin negotiating it?
Although 2 thirds will be tough going.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/here-are-the-main-elements-of-the-deal-for-government-formation-1005228.html

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: bennydorano on June 27, 2020, 11:44:54 AM
Does this not all feel a bit tawdry?? I'm no fan off SF but it feels a bit off. A rotten borough.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 11:58:45 AM
3 Parties who got 51% of the votes got 51% of the seats and are coming together to form a Government.
Happens all over Europe most of the time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on June 27, 2020, 01:42:10 PM
Indeed, whether you agree with it or not it's pretty much how democracy does and should work.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on June 27, 2020, 01:44:09 PM
This government represents the majority, not SF, although they do try and give the impression that somehow most people want them when they do not.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 27, 2020, 01:55:18 PM
SF will do well in opposition. May well get a higher proportion of first preference votes at the next election too as the recession from covid19 hits.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 27, 2020, 02:16:43 PM
Mad to think the Greens are part of government when they were nearly wiped out in the 2011 general election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: 6th sam on June 27, 2020, 03:51:31 PM
Smacks as a sense of desperation from
Michael Martin to be Taoiseach , and not to be the only FF leader not to be Taoiseach. Much as FF have a chequered past, almost all their previous leaders had a slight Grá for the North and emphasised with those of us North of the border who are Irish . The last 2 leaders Cowan and Martin have shown little understanding or empathy with the North, and it's cost them votes amongst many of their supporters with a republican leaning. Getting into  bed with FG in last Dáil didn't serve them well, and actually going into coalition with them will lose FF further support.
Martin is becoming Taoiseach at a very challenging time, on the back of Leo whose performance as Taoiseach has been poor in the main, but remains the darling of the media. The media won't be as easy on Martin.
SF will no doubt relish the prospect of getting the boot into MichAel in opposition, as opposed to having to lead from a minority position, with tough decisions to make. I imagine Mary Lou will want to play a canny game , in the knowledge that any remaining self respecting republicans in FF could now gravitate towards SF. If SF are serious about UI they and other Politicians need to put forward realistic proposals on how an All-Island solution would look. UK are at the stage   Where they would happily unload NI. And many from a unionist background will be attracted by the most favourable economic future , so SF need to seriously up
Their game in terms of a realistic and unifying roadmap for the future.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 05:01:33 PM
Favourable economic future and SF in the one sentence .....
Did I not read that the Programme for Government includes an Office for All Ireland Affairs??
Comhaontas Glas are an AI Party.
Martin and Cowan not having empathy with the North would be representative of their age group and locations.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on June 27, 2020, 05:22:34 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on June 27, 2020, 03:51:31 PM
If SF are serious about UI they and other Politicians need to put forward realistic proposals on how an All-Island solution would look. UK are at the stage 

The problem is that they are not serious about a UI. At the stage the main obstacle to a UI is how you pay for it, yet SF keep making it harder to pay for with their free money policies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: 6th sam on June 27, 2020, 05:29:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 05:01:33 PM
Favourable economic future and SF in the one sentence .....
Did I not read that the Programme for Government includes an Office for All Ireland Affairs??
Comhaontas Glas are an AI Party.
Martin and Cowan not having empathy with the North would be representative of their age group and locations.

In terms of FG , by their very nature ,They are partitionists , Tbf  Leo Varadkar doesn't try to hide this. The problem for FF is they claim
To be UI party but have now joined forces with FG, who don't have that outlook. That will undoubtedly result in a further erosion of their core electoral support. Martin is prepared to jeopardise that to egotistically seize the opportunity to  become Taoiseach at a very challenging time for the island. He has given very little indication that he's capable of meeting a challenge of that size . That said this coalition is a broad church , and the input of the greens will be crucial in delivering real change.
ROI as an economy has benefitted enormously from multinational companies and as a result scored well on most economic parameters, can this coalition translate that economic advantage into areas of need:poverty,homelessness/health ?......the record of FF/FG in that regard has been poor, the new government must put our relative wealth to better use
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:27:34 PM
Seems the new Unit is called the "Shared Ireland Unit" and is part of the Department of the Taoiseach.
Since 1970 hasn't been much difference between FF and FG on the North except a bit of grandstanding by Haughey while in opposition and Bruton not overly pursuing the peace process in the mid 90s.
I see they stuck that smarmy know it all p***k Donnelly with Health. Is it a Machivellian plot to put a halt to his gallop?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 27, 2020, 07:37:41 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:27:34 PM
Seems the new Unit is called the "Shared Ireland Unit" and is part of the Department of the Taoiseach.
Since 1970 hasn't been much difference between FF and FG on the North except a bit of grandstanding by Haughey while in opposition and Bruton not overly pursuing the peace process in the mid 90s.
I see they stuck that smarmy know it all p***k Donnelly with Health. Is it a Machivellian plot to put a halt to his gallop?

And not one senior minister west of the Shannon. Oh and that asshole Eamon Ryan as transport minister.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:50:01 PM
No more P Flynn type roads for Mayo...
Or grants for Prenty Vanity projects.
East and South is where it's at :-\
Where the numbers are. Cork elects as many TDs as Connacht while Dublin elects over twice as many.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on June 27, 2020, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:50:01 PM
No more P Flynn type roads for Mayo...
Or grants for Prenty Vanity projects.
East and South is where it's at :-\
Where the numbers are. Cork elects as many TDs as Connacht while Dublin elects over twice as many.

Sure they know the westerners won't mind and will vote for them anyway. They are like bet dogs
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 27, 2020, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 27, 2020, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:50:01 PM
No more P Flynn type roads for Mayo...
Or grants for Prenty Vanity projects.
East and South is where it's at :-\
Where the numbers are. Cork elects as many TDs as Connacht while Dublin elects over twice as many.

Sure they know the westerners won't mind and will vote for them anyway. They are like bet dogs
Too many independents west of Shannon
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on June 27, 2020, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on June 27, 2020, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 27, 2020, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:50:01 PM
No more P Flynn type roads for Mayo...
Or grants for Prenty Vanity projects.
East and South is where it's at :-\
Where the numbers are. Cork elects as many TDs as Connacht while Dublin elects over twice as many.

Sure they know the westerners won't mind and will vote for them anyway. They are like bet dogs
Too many independents west of Shannon

Too many wankers west of the Shannon, chief of which are the Healy-Raes!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on June 27, 2020, 10:02:55 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 27, 2020, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on June 27, 2020, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 27, 2020, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:50:01 PM
No more P Flynn type roads for Mayo...
Or grants for Prenty Vanity projects.
East and South is where it's at :-\
Where the numbers are. Cork elects as many TDs as Connacht while Dublin elects over twice as many.

Sure they know the westerners won't mind and will vote for them anyway. They are like bet dogs
Too many independents west of Shannon

Too many wankers west of the Shannon, chief of which are the Healy-Raes!

How's your geography, chief?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 10:07:24 PM
 :D :D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 27, 2020, 10:08:19 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on June 27, 2020, 10:02:55 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 27, 2020, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on June 27, 2020, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 27, 2020, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2020, 07:50:01 PM
No more P Flynn type roads for Mayo...
Or grants for Prenty Vanity projects.
East and South is where it's at :-\
Where the numbers are. Cork elects as many TDs as Connacht while Dublin elects over twice as many.

Sure they know the westerners won't mind and will vote for them anyway. They are like bet dogs
Too many independents west of Shannon

Too many wankers west of the Shannon, chief of which are the Healy-Raes!

How's your geography, chief?

;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on June 28, 2020, 12:18:24 AM
Dara Calleary was shafted completely. FF deputy leader and didn't get a senior ministry job.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on June 28, 2020, 12:40:46 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 28, 2020, 12:18:24 AM
Dara Calleary was shafted completely. FF deputy leader and didn't get a senior ministry job.

Yeah, that was a big shock for him. At the cabinet table but I'd say he expected more
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on June 28, 2020, 01:03:47 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 28, 2020, 12:40:46 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 28, 2020, 12:18:24 AM
Dara Calleary was shafted completely. FF deputy leader and didn't get a senior ministry job.

Yeah, that was a big shock for him. At the cabinet table but I'd say he expected more
It shows Martin isn't just a pretty face. Calleary, and O'Callaghan especially, were just a few who were put firmly in their places.I don't know much about Calleary and his intentions to go further, if you follow me, but O'Callaghan was openly touting his chances of replacing Martin if the coalition talks failed.
Martin will need to keep an eye on the malcontents in his party but I'd say he is well able for them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 28, 2020, 07:12:46 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 28, 2020, 01:03:47 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 28, 2020, 12:40:46 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 28, 2020, 12:18:24 AM
Dara Calleary was shafted completely. FF deputy leader and didn't get a senior ministry job.

Yeah, that was a big shock for him. At the cabinet table but I'd say he expected more
It shows Martin isn't just a pretty face. Calleary, and O'Callaghan especially, were just a few who were put firmly in their places.I don't know much about Calleary and his intentions to go further, if you follow me, but O'Callaghan was openly touting his chances of replacing Martin if the coalition talks failed.
Martin will need to keep an eye on the malcontents in his party but I'd say he is well able for them.

I don't know if there's many malcontents within FF. Afterall they were expected to win around 55 to 60 seats according to political analysts. If there are any, MM would be gone on 9th of February imo.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on June 28, 2020, 08:57:51 PM
Regina Doherty to head up the Seanad having campaigned to abolish it. Laughable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 28, 2020, 09:29:17 PM
Why?
The people voted to keep it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on June 28, 2020, 09:35:56 PM
Gran Coalition is a new style for Ireland.

FF plus FG was regularly 70% + in the past but that is over.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 28, 2020, 09:39:31 PM
43% this year.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 04:28:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 28, 2020, 09:29:17 PM
Why?
The people voted to keep it.

Its called principles or having a position on something. She could have easily said No Thanks but no she is just another money grabbing useless career politician.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 28, 2020, 01:03:47 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 28, 2020, 12:40:46 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on June 28, 2020, 12:18:24 AM
Dara Calleary was shafted completely. FF deputy leader and didn't get a senior ministry job.

Yeah, that was a big shock for him. At the cabinet table but I'd say he expected more
It shows Martin isn't just a pretty face. Calleary, and O'Callaghan especially, were just a few who were put firmly in their places.I don't know much about Calleary and his intentions to go further, if you follow me, but O'Callaghan was openly touting his chances of replacing Martin if the coalition talks failed.
Martin will need to keep an eye on the malcontents in his party but I'd say he is well able for them.

So your saying Martin is vindictive and is more inclined to self preservation than putting the best people in place? You seem to be quite impressed with this approach or maybe I am wrong saying that. Of all the politicians in the south I think Michael Martin is one of the least impressive I have ever witnessed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 29, 2020, 06:36:17 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 04:28:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 28, 2020, 09:29:17 PM
Why?
The people voted to keep it.

Its called principles or having a position on something. She could have easily said No Thanks but no she is just another money grabbing useless career politician.
How Principled are you ?
If you gave in €10 in a shop and got change of €20 would you hand back the extra?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on June 29, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Well done to Micheál Martin who had the pleasure of nominating the first Traveller Eileen Flynn to the Senate, one of 11 nominated,
his only non-party political nominee.
'Ms Flynn is a community development worker with the National Traveller Women's Forum.
She is also a human rights activist who has campaigned on several social issues including homelessness; same-sex marriage, abortion and hate crime.The Women's Council of Ireland and Traveller's rights campaign group Pavee Point have both hailed her appointment as "historic".
In a series of tweets after her nomination, Ms Flynn said: "I have worked all my life to break barriers and challenge inequality."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504)


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on June 29, 2020, 11:40:18 PM
What a pity they didnt also nominate Marshall or someone from the unionist perspective in the North.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 11:56:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 29, 2020, 06:36:17 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 04:28:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 28, 2020, 09:29:17 PM
Why?
The people voted to keep it.

Its called principles or having a position on something. She could have easily said No Thanks but no she is just another money grabbing useless career politician.
How Principled are you ?
If you gave in €10 in a shop and got change of €20 would you hand back the extra?

Yes I would actually.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 11:58:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 29, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Well done to Micheál Martin who had the pleasure of nominating the first Traveller Eileen Flynn to the Senate, one of 11 nominated,
his only non-party political nominee.
'Ms Flynn is a community development worker with the National Traveller Women's Forum.
She is also a human rights activist who has campaigned on several social issues including homelessness; same-sex marriage, abortion and hate crime.The Women's Council of Ireland and Traveller's rights campaign group Pavee Point have both hailed her appointment as "historic".
In a series of tweets after her nomination, Ms Flynn said: "I have worked all my life to break barriers and challenge inequality."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504)

Reminds me of the black kid in Southpark.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on June 30, 2020, 01:26:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 11:58:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 29, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Well done to Micheál Martin who had the pleasure of nominating the first Traveller Eileen Flynn to the Senate, one of 11 nominated,
his only non-party political nominee.
'Ms Flynn is a community development worker with the National Traveller Women's Forum.
She is also a human rights activist who has campaigned on several social issues including homelessness; same-sex marriage, abortion and hate crime.The Women's Council of Ireland and Traveller's rights campaign group Pavee Point have both hailed her appointment as "historic".
In a series of tweets after her nomination, Ms Flynn said: "I have worked all my life to break barriers and challenge inequality."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504)

Reminds me of the black kid in Southpark.
I haven't a clue what that means as I haven't watched any of Southpark, but if you choose to let an American tv cartoon  drama define your social outlook then good luck to you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Capt Pat on June 30, 2020, 06:54:49 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 30, 2020, 01:26:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 11:58:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 29, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Well done to Micheál Martin who had the pleasure of nominating the first Traveller Eileen Flynn to the Senate, one of 11 nominated,
his only non-party political nominee.
'Ms Flynn is a community development worker with the National Traveller Women's Forum.
She is also a human rights activist who has campaigned on several social issues including homelessness; same-sex marriage, abortion and hate crime.The Women's Council of Ireland and Traveller's rights campaign group Pavee Point have both hailed her appointment as "historic".
In a series of tweets after her nomination, Ms Flynn said: "I have worked all my life to break barriers and challenge inequality."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504)

Reminds me of the black kid in Southpark.
I haven't a clue what that means as I haven't watched any of Southpark, but if you choose to let an American tv cartoon  drama define your social outlook then good luck to you.

The black kid in southpark is called token. I think he is trying to say the nomination of the traveller lady is a token nomination.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on June 30, 2020, 09:50:50 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 30, 2020, 01:26:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 11:58:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 29, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Well done to Micheál Martin who had the pleasure of nominating the first Traveller Eileen Flynn to the Senate, one of 11 nominated,
his only non-party political nominee.
'Ms Flynn is a community development worker with the National Traveller Women's Forum.
She is also a human rights activist who has campaigned on several social issues including homelessness; same-sex marriage, abortion and hate crime.The Women's Council of Ireland and Traveller's rights campaign group Pavee Point have both hailed her appointment as "historic".
In a series of tweets after her nomination, Ms Flynn said: "I have worked all my life to break barriers and challenge inequality."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504)

Reminds me of the black kid in Southpark.
I haven't a clue what that means as I haven't watched any of Southpark, but if you choose to let an American tv cartoon  drama define your social outlook then good luck to you.

Southpark is a social satire in many ways, I wouldnt call it a cartoon. But Capt Pat is correct. What has FF or FG ever done for travellers? Nominating one to a useless place like the Seanad is tokenism. 12 men and 4 women at the cabinet table is a much better reflection of the reality of todays government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on June 30, 2020, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 30, 2020, 09:50:50 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 30, 2020, 01:26:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on June 29, 2020, 11:58:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 29, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Well done to Micheál Martin who had the pleasure of nominating the first Traveller Eileen Flynn to the Senate, one of 11 nominated,
his only non-party political nominee.
'Ms Flynn is a community development worker with the National Traveller Women's Forum.
She is also a human rights activist who has campaigned on several social issues including homelessness; same-sex marriage, abortion and hate crime.The Women's Council of Ireland and Traveller's rights campaign group Pavee Point have both hailed her appointment as "historic".
In a series of tweets after her nomination, Ms Flynn said: "I have worked all my life to break barriers and challenge inequality."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53212504)

Reminds me of the black kid in Southpark.
I haven't a clue what that means as I haven't watched any of Southpark, but if you choose to let an American tv cartoon  drama define your social outlook then good luck to you.

Southpark is a social satire in many ways, I wouldnt call it a cartoon. But Capt Pat is correct. What has FF or FG ever done for travellers? Nominating one to a useless place like the Seanad is tokenism. 12 men and 4 women at the cabinet table is a much better reflection of the reality of todays government.
The fact that the nomination is reported in a very detailed article in the european edition of the BBC world news is significant in itself. In racist Ireland the first Traveller has made it to the Senate.
In the article there are indicators that it's a well deserved merited hard earned nomination   and she will pump it for all its worth.
She herself is more than qualified and "she stood for election to the Seanad earlier this year and very narrowly missed out on a seat. Next time around she has a better chance to get elected herself or/and go fo a Dail seat as well.

The article mentions a published seanad report earlier this year  into Travellers experience of "stigma, longstanding prejudice, discrimination, racism, social exclusion and identity erosion".
'The report's first recommendation was to "reserve a seat in the Seanad for Travellers in the form of a taoiseach's nominee'.

Last time around Varadkar nominated a northern Unionist as is/was tradition (nominate a northerer). The media speculation this time  centred around which northerner MM would nominate. I assume something was altered in Michael Martin's considerations, the token northern ambassador was dropped and  Eileen was nominated instead.




Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:39:19 AM
So it seems that Barry Cowens drink driving story was leaked to the media by his party colleague Thomas Byrne as he was mad at Cowen getting a ministerial post instead of him. The tweet below is from one of Thomas Byrnes canvassers Ken McFadden

https://twitter.com/unspeakable28/status/1280975847445401600

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 09, 2020, 08:45:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:39:19 AM
So it seems that Barry Cowens drink driving story was leaked to the media by his party colleague Thomas Byrne as he was mad at Cowen getting a ministerial post instead of him. The tweet below is from one of Thomas Byrnes canvassers Ken McFadden

https://twitter.com/unspeakable28/status/1280975847445401600

Crazy if true, so Byrne knew but Martin didn't?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 09:23:44 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 09, 2020, 08:45:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:39:19 AM
So it seems that Barry Cowens drink driving story was leaked to the media by his party colleague Thomas Byrne as he was mad at Cowen getting a ministerial post instead of him. The tweet below is from one of Thomas Byrnes canvassers Ken McFadden

https://twitter.com/unspeakable28/status/1280975847445401600

Crazy if true, so Byrne knew but Martin didn't?

There is a generation of people who have not witnesses FF i government, I hope they are ready for 5 years of this. Acting like spoilt children.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on July 09, 2020, 09:58:24 AM
You could have a point Itchy if every other party and politician wasn't exactly as infantile. Politics has always been childish but I truly despair of it now in the social media age. It has completely ceased to be about anything other than the right soundbite
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 09:58:55 AM
I see Flaherty the new FF TD in Longford has been apologising too (been a busy week of politicians apologising)
He wrote letters to Court in support for 3 " individuals" who were partaking in Longford criminal feud activities.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 11:45:05 AM
Quote from: Boycey on July 09, 2020, 09:58:24 AM
You could have a point Itchy if every other party and politician wasn't exactly as infantile. Politics has always been childish but I truly despair of it now in the social media age. It has completely ceased to be about anything other than the right soundbite

I dont accept that every other party is similarily infantile as this, this is a new low even for FF. What you are doing there is whataboutery of a kind, they are all as bad as each other so why bother call any of it out. Knifing your own colleague in the back because he got promoted ahead of you? Even his own canvasser called him out on that act.

Now go to Independent.ie and see what the top story is today - you guessed it, A SF TD in 2013 did the same. Not a mention of the allegation above.

My point with all this is that I have no issue with a man or woman making a mistake, but the way they are treated by the media in this country is shocking. One rule for one and another for the others. Anyone who doesnt think that the media in Ireland tried to change the course of the last election for example is an idiot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
You might give some examples of the "media trying to change the course if the last election"
Remember that SF only had 42 or was it 45? candidates.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 12:34:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
You might give some examples of the "media trying to change the course if the last election"
Remember that SF only had 42 or was it 45? candidates.

I never said they were fully successful as people are getting wise to it.

Resurrecting the case of Paul Quinn that occurred in 2007. No mention before election and no mention after. Used the mans poor mother for political gain.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 09, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
You might give some examples of the "media trying to change the course if the last election"
Remember that SF only had 42 or was it 45? candidates.

I'm no Shinner, but the Indo refused to publish opinion polls because they didn't like the results of them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:19:17 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 09, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
You might give some examples of the "media trying to change the course if the last election"
Remember that SF only had 42 or was it 45? candidates.

I'm no Shinner, but the Indo refused to publish opinion polls because they didn't like the results of them.

Its the way the world works. CNN democrat, Fox Republican.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: HiMucker on July 09, 2020, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:19:17 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 09, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
You might give some examples of the "media trying to change the course if the last election"
Remember that SF only had 42 or was it 45? candidates.

I'm no Shinner, but the Indo refused to publish opinion polls because they didn't like the results of them.

Its the way the world works. CNN democrat, Fox Republican.
As biased as a fox news or CNN is, I don't ever recall them not publishing opinion polls. In fact Fox news opinion polls is one of their few credible attributes. Rte like the BBC is an out and out state propaganda broadcast machine
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 09, 2020, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

I doubt it, in relation to Quinn. I doubt if anyone in office for SF was there, they may "know" who did it but sure the PSNI and Gardai likely know that already, but have no proof.

Robert McCartney would be another matter.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:47:58 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 09, 2020, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:19:17 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 09, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
You might give some examples of the "media trying to change the course if the last election"
Remember that SF only had 42 or was it 45? candidates.

I'm no Shinner, but the Indo refused to publish opinion polls because they didn't like the results of them.

Its the way the world works. CNN democrat, Fox Republican.
As biased as a fox news or CNN is, I don't ever recall them not publishing opinion polls. In fact Fox news opinion polls is one of their few credible attributes. Rte like the BBC is an out and out state propaganda broadcast machine

A newspaper can choose however to add whatever story they see fit. In this instance it probably done the Indo more reputational damage than good, especially when the results were widely available at the click of a button. No information was withheld from the public through state control.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 02:51:42 PM
More FF apologising :o

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/i-deeply-regret-unfounded-accusations-against-mary-lou-fianna-fail-td-apologises-as-defamation-case-settles-39353512.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 09:04:43 PM
So it appears a jealous FF junior minister leaked a story to the media about a senior FF minister and a FF activist is willing to swear on the bible he heard this and it gets no mainstream media coverage???
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: From the Bunker on July 09, 2020, 09:07:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 09:04:43 PM
So it appears a jealous FF junior minister leaked a story to the media about a senior FF minister and a FF activist is willing to swear on the bible he heard this and it gets no mainstream media coverage???

Of course not. It does not involved SF! I'm no SF supporter, but that's the way it goes!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 09:15:07 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 09, 2020, 09:07:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 09:04:43 PM
So it appears a jealous FF junior minister leaked a story to the media about a senior FF minister and a FF activist is willing to swear on the bible he heard this and it gets no mainstream media coverage???

Of course not. It does not involved SF! I'm no SF supporter, but that's the way it goes!

I agree that's the way it goes, but amazingly there are quite a few who deny that is the case and its a fair playing field.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

There was no slur on them to say they were used and you'd have to be a complete moron to think i put any slur on them
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

There was no slur on them to say they were used and you'd have to be a complete moron to think i put any slur on them

It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

There was no slur on them to say they were used and you'd have to be a complete moron to think i put any slur on them

It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

The point I was making is that this was dragged up in the middle of an election after SF started polling strongly. The crime happened in 2007, 13 years earlier. The Southern Media for a decade barely reported on it. Then suddenly they started - have you the intelligence to ask yourself why that is?

I know the Quinns and others, on both sides I might add, continue to search for justice. But do you think it was some sort of incredible coincidence that the Quinns got a breakthrough with the Southern media in the middle of a general election after a decade of getting nowhere. And just so you can stop insinuating I am an apologist for the crime itself, the crime was carried out by the scum of the earth in a cowardly way and I hope those responsible are found and put in jail to rot for the rest of their lives. But yes, the media connived with FF/FG to drag up an old case to try to effect the election result, thats exactly what I am saying.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer

What did he say that was wrong out of interest?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:15:53 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

There was no slur on them to say they were used and you'd have to be a complete moron to think i put any slur on them

It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

The point I was making is that this was dragged up in the middle of an election after SF started polling strongly. The crime happened in 2007, 13 years earlier. The Southern Media for a decade barely reported on it. Then suddenly they started - have you the intelligence to ask yourself why that is?

I know the Quinns and others, on both sides I might add, continue to search for justice. But do you think it was some sort of incredible coincidence that the Quinns got a breakthrough with the Southern media in the middle of a general election after a decade of getting nowhere. And just so you can stop insinuating I am an apologist for the crime itself, the crime was carried out by the scum of the earth in a cowardly way and I hope those responsible are found and put in jail to rot for the rest of their lives. But yes, the media connived with FF/FG to drag up an old case to try to effect the election result, thats exactly what I am saying.

Our Finance Minister has the answers.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:17:42 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer

What did he say that was wrong out of interest?

I never claimed he said anything wrong. I was just worried he had inadvertently overlooked the recent activity on the SDLP thread.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 10, 2020, 10:21:51 AM
Why are the free state government refusing to release information that could help secure a prosecution against the British soldier who murdered Aidan McAnespie?

The McAnespie family have been looking for Charlie Flanagan to release the independent Garda report into the killing but the Irish government have hidden behind a load of bullshit reasons in not doing so.

It takes a brass neck to moan and moralise about the killing of Paul Quinn when the fee state government is actively obstructing the chance of prosecuting a British soldier who shot an unarmed civilian in the back and killed him.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

There was no slur on them to say they were used and you'd have to be a complete moron to think i put any slur on them

It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

The point I was making is that this was dragged up in the middle of an election after SF started polling strongly. The crime happened in 2007, 13 years earlier. The Southern Media for a decade barely reported on it. Then suddenly they started - have you the intelligence to ask yourself why that is?

I know the Quinns and others, on both sides I might add, continue to search for justice. But do you think it was some sort of incredible coincidence that the Quinns got a breakthrough with the Southern media in the middle of a general election after a decade of getting nowhere. And just so you can stop insinuating I am an apologist for the crime itself, the crime was carried out by the scum of the earth in a cowardly way and I hope those responsible are found and put in jail to rot for the rest of their lives. But yes, the media connived with FF/FG to drag up an old case to try to effect the election result, thats exactly what I am saying.

Because it is not true. SF are peddling this line about the media conniving with FF/FG to sully their good name. It's Donald Trumpesque it really is. The idea that it was only brought up at election time is wrong.
Breege Quinn has done 100s of interview since 2007 trying get justice for her son.
Also this bullshit SF line that the Quinns and others on both sides continue to search for justice... SF know exactly who with in the IRA carried out that murder, just like Deirdre Hegarty knew who killed Robert McCartney but never helped the investigation. Hegarty was in the bar.. and then denied that she was.. a man was murdered..a father.. murdered like. He didn't get bate up or a black eye..he was actually murdered and she denied being on the premises. Come on. For God's sake this isn't acceptable of a party of government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 10, 2020, 11:08:47 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

Have the indo run one Quinn family story since the election? Or Stack family?

I don't think its a slur to say the media ditched them the second they weren't useful.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:10:37 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

There was no slur on them to say they were used and you'd have to be a complete moron to think i put any slur on them

It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

The point I was making is that this was dragged up in the middle of an election after SF started polling strongly. The crime happened in 2007, 13 years earlier. The Southern Media for a decade barely reported on it. Then suddenly they started - have you the intelligence to ask yourself why that is?

I know the Quinns and others, on both sides I might add, continue to search for justice. But do you think it was some sort of incredible coincidence that the Quinns got a breakthrough with the Southern media in the middle of a general election after a decade of getting nowhere. And just so you can stop insinuating I am an apologist for the crime itself, the crime was carried out by the scum of the earth in a cowardly way and I hope those responsible are found and put in jail to rot for the rest of their lives. But yes, the media connived with FF/FG to drag up an old case to try to effect the election result, thats exactly what I am saying.

Because it is not true. SF are peddling this line about the media conniving with FF/FG to sully their good name. It's Donald Trumpesque it really is. The idea that it was only brought up at election time is wrong.
Breege Quinn has done 100s of interview since 2007 trying get justice for her son.
Also this bullshit SF line that the Quinns and others on both sides continue to search for justice... SF know exactly who with in the IRA carried out that murder, just like Deirdre Hegarty knew who killed Robert McCartney but never helped the investigation. Hegarty was in the bar.. and then denied that she was.. a man was murdered..a father.. murdered like. He didn't get bate up or a black eye..he was actually murdered and she denied being on the premises. Come on. For God's sake this isn't acceptable of a party of government.

You are so blinded by hatred of SF you cant even see I am not even talking about the same thing you are. I assume you are north of the border too because you have to be blind or stupid to not see how the media in the south tried to influence the election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 10, 2020, 11:08:47 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

Have the indo run one Quinn family story since the election? Or Stack family?

I don't think its a slur to say the media ditched them the second they weren't useful.

The media kind of been busy with a few other big stories in fairness and any Newspaper has been running on half power for last few months. Look I'm not defending the papers but Breege Quinn has constantly and consistently been doing interviews since her son was murdered and she is not a FF/FG/print media/establishment lacky and to suggest that is wrong.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.

That's exactly what a certain Mr Donald Trump says about the American media. It's like saying how dare they scrutinise us. How dare they print these bad headlines. How dare they bring up the involvement of SF and IRA members in Murders. How dare they challenge our sanitised imagine! FAKE NEWS!

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:55:19 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.

That's exactly what a certain Mr Donald Trump says about the American media. It's like saying how dare they scrutinise us. How dare they print these bad headlines. How dare they bring up the involvement of SF and IRA members in Murders. How dare they challenge our sanitised imagine! FAKE NEWS!

Accusses me of being like Donald Trump and says "Fake News" at the end of his post. Conversation over, not enough time in the world to debate with morons.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:55:19 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.

That's exactly what a certain Mr Donald Trump says about the American media. It's like saying how dare they scrutinise us. How dare they print these bad headlines. How dare they bring up the involvement of SF and IRA members in Murders. How dare they challenge our sanitised imagine! FAKE NEWS!

Accusses me of being like Donald Trump and says "Fake News" at the end of his post. Conversation over, not enough time in the world to debate with morons.

You've picked that up wrong. I was saying in the context of what DT says about media and how it's the same approach you and SF have taken.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 10, 2020, 12:29:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.
100%
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 02:10:45 PM
Yes Mary Lou would have run more candidates, had the largest party and formed the best government in the history of the Irish state only for the establishment/media/FF/FG*

*Delete as applicable

The parallels with Donald Trump's strategy are uncanny.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 02:24:01 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 02:10:45 PM
Yes Mary Lou would have run more candidates, had the largest party and formed the best government in the history of the Irish state only for the establishment/media/FF/FG*

*Delete as applicable

The parallels with Donald Trump's strategy are uncanny.

Tell me where I said that you complete moron. No wonder the SDLP dont know what way is up with eejits like you in their midst
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 02:39:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 02:24:01 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 02:10:45 PM
Yes Mary Lou would have run more candidates, had the largest party and formed the best government in the history of the Irish state only for the establishment/media/FF/FG*

*Delete as applicable

The parallels with Donald Trump's strategy are uncanny.

Tell me where I said that you complete moron. No wonder the SDLP dont know what way is up with eejits like you in their midst

I never said that you said it. You need to get over yourself, not everything I post is directed at you lol. 

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on July 10, 2020, 07:24:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.
I thought the unusual element about the election campaign was that as the polls rose for Sinn Fein, the noise from FF & FG rose in response, but the more they railed in the media, the more the polls rose even higher for SF. The usual throw mud at Sinn Fein tactic, traditionally a target as easy to hit as a barn door, backfired. It became somewhat comical when it was pointed out to FF and FG that the desired result was not being achieved and clearly backfiring, yet they continued to throw mud.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 11:21:27 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 10, 2020, 07:24:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.
I thought the unusual element about the election campaign was that as the polls rose for Sinn Fein, the noise from FF & FG rose in response, but the more they railed in the media, the more the polls rose even higher for SF. The usual throw mud at Sinn Fein tactic, traditionally a target as easy to hit as a barn door, backfired. It became somewhat comical when it was pointed out to FF and FG that the desired result was not being achieved and clearly backfiring, yet they continued to throw mud.

I've said it for a long time, let SF take the reins, stand back and watch the disaster unfold. No British govt or public services to prop them up
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 11, 2020, 09:56:04 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 11:21:27 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 10, 2020, 07:24:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.
I thought the unusual element about the election campaign was that as the polls rose for Sinn Fein, the noise from FF & FG rose in response, but the more they railed in the media, the more the polls rose even higher for SF. The usual throw mud at Sinn Fein tactic, traditionally a target as easy to hit as a barn door, backfired. It became somewhat comical when it was pointed out to FF and FG that the desired result was not being achieved and clearly backfiring, yet they continued to throw mud.

I've said it for a long time, let SF take the reins, stand back and watch the disaster unfold. No British govt or public services to prop them up

Says the man who votes fir a party that are Sinn Fein minus abortion. Lol
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 11, 2020, 11:08:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 11, 2020, 09:56:04 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 11:21:27 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 10, 2020, 07:24:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2020, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The media/FF/FG obviously did a poor job as Shinners went from 11% of the vote in May 2019 to 24% in Feb 2020.
Meanwhile Angelo comes straight from whataboutry bot school making allegations about something called "free state government".

Yes, that is partially true. When SF started polling very strongly, the big guns were rolled out. Quinn case was thrown out etc. The Media, like most of us, were caught napping by the resurgence in the SF vote. I actually think they probably did do some damage as if they played fair SF could have done even better. The other thing of course was that SF were caught themselves and didnt field enough candidates.

But none of that is really the point I am making, the point is that the mainstream media in this country is bought and they are not independent and no better than Fox news in the states. Especially that Indo rag.
I thought the unusual element about the election campaign was that as the polls rose for Sinn Fein, the noise from FF & FG rose in response, but the more they railed in the media, the more the polls rose even higher for SF. The usual throw mud at Sinn Fein tactic, traditionally a target as easy to hit as a barn door, backfired. It became somewhat comical when it was pointed out to FF and FG that the desired result was not being achieved and clearly backfiring, yet they continued to throw mud.

I've said it for a long time, let SF take the reins, stand back and watch the disaster unfold. No British govt or public services to prop them up

Says the man who votes fir a party that are Sinn Fein minus abortion. Lol

Jesus delayed response there  ::). Take a wee rest will you it's sat night, bonfires to be burnt too
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:10:56 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer

What did he say that was wrong out of interest?

He said the media weren't using the Quinn family to influence the election. If he really believes that (and I don't think anyone could believe he really does), then he is bryond naive and has no credibility talking about politics whatsoever.

Not sure what way he would explain the complete disinterest the media have had in the Quinns since the election ended. Or indeed before the election.

He also takes issue with Conor Murphy saying the murder was part of a crininal feud. The media hounded Murphy through the election for an apology. Yet, the British Government itself said in their IMF report that their intelligence suggested it was a criminal feud. No campaign for them to apologise though.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 02:28:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:10:56 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer

What did he say that was wrong out of interest?

He said the media weren't using the Quinn family to influence the election. If he really believes that (and I don't think anyone could believe he really does), then he is bryond naive and has no credibility talking about politics whatsoever.

Not sure what way he would explain the complete disinterest the media have had in the Quinns since the election ended. Or indeed before the election.

He also takes issue with Conor Murphy saying the murder was part of a crininal feud. The media hounded Murphy through the election for an apology. Yet, the British Government itself said in their IMF report that their intelligence suggested it was a criminal feud. No campaign for them to apologise though.

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2017/1123/922337-rte-investigates-wall-of-silence/

A 2 second check on Google disapproves your absolute disgraceful comment.

Murphy knows who killed him, criminals within the IRA
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 09, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: five points on July 09, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
True but if a gang of savage murderous thugs hadn't broken every bone in the chap's body in the process of murdering him with crowbars..... 
Mrs Quinn was more than glad of the opportunity to highlight what the savage thugs did to her son.

The gang of thugs (exactly what they are) that carried out the murder werent standing for election 13 years later in the south. It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result.

But those with vital information on the murder are in office for SF

If that is true (I doubt it is) they were in office in 2017 and 2018 and 2019. Why wait until the middle of a general election? Coincidence was it?

No coincidence but unresolved political scandals often become topical again at election time.  This sort of thing has been going on for my lifetime. The comings and goings of the 1970 Arms Trial used bother Charlie Haughey in elections campaigns in the 80s.

I dont recall it being brought up by media in such a sustained manner. Not the only example I could give you either and I think you know that full well.

Briege Quinn and the Quinn family have constantly and consistently fought to keep Paul's murder in the public eye and to suggest it has coincidence or it has been used to political point score is a slur on the Quinns. It is the modus operandi of SF and the Provo family. Deflect, start a whispering campaign, link the person murdered with crime and criminality, anything to deflect from what they did. SF and the IRA have a long, long, list of absolutely heinous crimes against the very communities they say that they protect. People would do well to remember this when they vote for them. 
Your slur on the Quinn family is absolutely disgraceful and you should retract it. They weren't and aren't being used.

So have the McAnespie family and the free state government are still unwilling to release a garda report on the murder of Aidan McAnespie.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 12, 2020, 03:00:13 PM
Whataboutry.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 12, 2020, 03:00:13 PM
Whataboutry.

That's usually how hypocrites try and spin balance
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 03:34:01 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43144010

FG sit on report and refuse to release it which could secure a conviction on a British soldier who shot dead an unarmed man in the back.

Why are FG helping facilitate crimes by the British military on this Ireland?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 12, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Speaking of Quinns, another forgotten horrific crime...

Remembering the 3 young Quinn brothers who were burned to death on this day 1998 because they were Catholics. Richard 11, Mark 9 and Jason 7. RIP

https://twitter.com/IrishUnity/status/1282249503890972673?s=19
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 12, 2020, 07:42:01 PM
Awful event.
All because a crowd of bigots weren't getting their way.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:27:01 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 02:28:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:10:56 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer

What did he say that was wrong out of interest?

He said the media weren't using the Quinn family to influence the election. If he really believes that (and I don't think anyone could believe he really does), then he is bryond naive and has no credibility talking about politics whatsoever.

Not sure what way he would explain the complete disinterest the media have had in the Quinns since the election ended. Or indeed before the election.

He also takes issue with Conor Murphy saying the murder was part of a crininal feud. The media hounded Murphy through the election for an apology. Yet, the British Government itself said in their IMF report that their intelligence suggested it was a criminal feud. No campaign for them to apologise though.

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2017/1123/922337-rte-investigates-wall-of-silence/

A 2 second check on Google disapproves your absolute disgraceful comment.

Murphy knows who killed him, criminals within the IRA

Disgraceful comment? Away an cop yourself on.

Why is it "a disgraceful comment" to simply state the fact that the British government's own IMC report said the murder was related to criminality?

It's exact wording was:

"The killing was clearly contrary to the instructions and strategy of the leadership of PIRA. It was also contrary to the interests of PIRA and to those of Sinn Féin. We are aware of no evidence linking the leadership of PIRA to the incident...We think that the attack on Paul Quinn was planned and carried out by local people and that it arose from local disputes. Whatever the immediate reason for the killing certain aspects of these disputes go back some time and were not unconnected with continuing illegal activity...The fact that some local members or former members or associates of the organization were involved in the incident does not in our view justify attributing it to the IRA".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 09:37:39 PM
Nobody wants to comment on the free state government obstructing the McAnespie family and their attempt to get justice?

The free state government have been consistently soft on British state sponsored terrorism on this island yet get indignant about those who were the victims of that state terrorism fighting back.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on July 12, 2020, 09:56:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 09:37:39 PM
Nobody wants to comment on the free state government obstructing the McAnespie family and their attempt to get justice?

The free state government have been consistently soft on British state sponsored terrorism on this island yet get indignant about those who were the victims of that state terrorism fighting back.

Charlie and the lads were more interested in celebrating the Black and Tans.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.

I think it's very pertinent when people are screaming blue murder over SF and Pual Quinn when successive free state governments have actively tried to suppress justice for victims of British state terrorism on this island.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:02:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:27:01 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 02:28:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:10:56 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer

What did he say that was wrong out of interest?

He said the media weren't using the Quinn family to influence the election. If he really believes that (and I don't think anyone could believe he really does), then he is bryond naive and has no credibility talking about politics whatsoever.

Not sure what way he would explain the complete disinterest the media have had in the Quinns since the election ended. Or indeed before the election.

He also takes issue with Conor Murphy saying the murder was part of a crininal feud. The media hounded Murphy through the election for an apology. Yet, the British Government itself said in their IMF report that their intelligence suggested it was a criminal feud. No campaign for them to apologise though.

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2017/1123/922337-rte-investigates-wall-of-silence/

A 2 second check on Google disapproves your absolute disgraceful comment.

Murphy knows who killed him, criminals within the IRA

Disgraceful comment? Away an cop yourself on.

Why is it "a disgraceful comment" to simply state the fact that the British government's own IMC report said the murder was related to criminality?

It's exact wording was:

"The killing was clearly contrary to the instructions and strategy of the leadership of PIRA. It was also contrary to the interests of PIRA and to those of Sinn Féin. We are aware of no evidence linking the leadership of PIRA to the incident...We think that the attack on Paul Quinn was planned and carried out by local people and that it arose from local disputes. Whatever the immediate reason for the killing certain aspects of these disputes go back some time and were not unconnected with continuing illegal activity...The fact that some local members or former members or associates of the organization were involved in the incident does not in our view justify attributing it to the IRA".

Both of us could go on here all night searching internet for evidence of this and that. At end of the day, the Quinn's have never been far from the news at anytime , ok more so during an election, but why would that be wrong? The Quinn's know the IRA and and people well known to Murphy killed their son. Everybody deep down believes that.The Quinn family welcomed the extra interest in the story and it's perfectly normal in a normal society for media to challenge anyone in politics who has links to criminal gangs.

All this stuff about the southern media just seems like veiled support for the killers or their protectors
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.

I think it's very pertinent when people are screaming blue murder over SF and Pual Quinn when successive free state governments have actively tried to suppress justice for victims of British state terrorism on this island.

Your head is fried sur
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:08:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.

I think it's very pertinent when people are screaming blue murder over SF and Pual Quinn when successive free state governments have actively tried to suppress justice for victims of British state terrorism on this island.

Your head is fried sur

Do you not think there is something utterly wrong with a government minister actively obstructing a family's quest for justice of an unarmed man who was shot in the back and killed by an occupying soldier?

The bottom line is the Free State establishment could not give a single toss about an innocent nationalist who lost their lives at the hands of the Brits or Loyalists.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:08:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.

I think it's very pertinent when people are screaming blue murder over SF and Pual Quinn when successive free state governments have actively tried to suppress justice for victims of British state terrorism on this island.

Your head is fried sur

Do you not think there is something utterly wrong with a government minister actively obstructing a family's quest for justice of an unarmed man who was shot in the back and killed by an occupying soldier?

The bottom line is the Free State establishment could not give a single toss about an innocent nationalist who lost their lives at the hands of the Brits or Loyalists.

Absolutely not. But I can't see link with the IRA murder of Paul Quinn
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on July 12, 2020, 11:01:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:08:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.

I think it's very pertinent when people are screaming blue murder over SF and Pual Quinn when successive free state governments have actively tried to suppress justice for victims of British state terrorism on this island.

Your head is fried sur

Do you not think there is something utterly wrong with a government minister actively obstructing a family's quest for justice of an unarmed man who was shot in the back and killed by an occupying soldier?

The bottom line is the Free State establishment could not give a single toss about an innocent nationalist who lost their lives at the hands of the Brits or Loyalists.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-51031136 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-51031136)
Former soldier to stand trial for shooting

Speaking afterwards, Aidan McAnespie's brother Vincent welcomed the decision.

"The family is very happy after such a long process of waiting to get to this stage that the judge has strongly come out firmly saying that yes - there is a case to be answered," he said.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 11:05:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 12, 2020, 11:01:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:08:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.

I think it's very pertinent when people are screaming blue murder over SF and Pual Quinn when successive free state governments have actively tried to suppress justice for victims of British state terrorism on this island.

Your head is fried sur

Do you not think there is something utterly wrong with a government minister actively obstructing a family's quest for justice of an unarmed man who was shot in the back and killed by an occupying soldier?

The bottom line is the Free State establishment could not give a single toss about an innocent nationalist who lost their lives at the hands of the Brits or Loyalists.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-51031136 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-51031136)
Former soldier to stand trial for shooting

Speaking afterwards, Aidan McAnespie's brother Vincent welcomed the decision.

"The family is very happy after such a long process of waiting to get to this stage that the judge has strongly come out firmly saying that yes - there is a case to be answered," he said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43144010

The report could be absolutely vital in securing a conviction but the Free State government will not release it.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 11:06:21 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:02:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:27:01 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 02:28:06 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 09:10:56 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2020, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on July 10, 2020, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
It was a cynical attempt to influence the election. They might as well have dragged up Haugheys gun running. The point is, you have to admit this was a cynical media attempt to influence the election result

Here you clearly state that the media was using Paul Quinn's murder to influence the election. That is straight out the provo playbook. The establishment are against us!
Paul Quinn was murdered by the IRA and Conor Murphy said it was criminality and criminals who fell out, when it wasn't. The Quinn's have consistently fought for justice, similar to the McCartney sisters and the whispering campaign, intimidation and lies that have been spread about both families is absolutely disgraceful.
SF have their own set of rules that they play by.

I think you're wanted over on the SDLP thread Trailer

What did he say that was wrong out of interest?

He said the media weren't using the Quinn family to influence the election. If he really believes that (and I don't think anyone could believe he really does), then he is bryond naive and has no credibility talking about politics whatsoever.

Not sure what way he would explain the complete disinterest the media have had in the Quinns since the election ended. Or indeed before the election.

He also takes issue with Conor Murphy saying the murder was part of a crininal feud. The media hounded Murphy through the election for an apology. Yet, the British Government itself said in their IMF report that their intelligence suggested it was a criminal feud. No campaign for them to apologise though.

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2017/1123/922337-rte-investigates-wall-of-silence/

A 2 second check on Google disapproves your absolute disgraceful comment.

Murphy knows who killed him, criminals within the IRA

Disgraceful comment? Away an cop yourself on.

Why is it "a disgraceful comment" to simply state the fact that the British government's own IMC report said the murder was related to criminality?

It's exact wording was:

"The killing was clearly contrary to the instructions and strategy of the leadership of PIRA. It was also contrary to the interests of PIRA and to those of Sinn Féin. We are aware of no evidence linking the leadership of PIRA to the incident...We think that the attack on Paul Quinn was planned and carried out by local people and that it arose from local disputes. Whatever the immediate reason for the killing certain aspects of these disputes go back some time and were not unconnected with continuing illegal activity...The fact that some local members or former members or associates of the organization were involved in the incident does not in our view justify attributing it to the IRA".

Both of us could go on here all night searching internet for evidence of this and that. At end of the day, the Quinn's have never been far from the news at anytime , ok more so during an election, but why would that be wrong? The Quinn's know the IRA and and people well known to Murphy killed their son. Everybody deep down believes that.The Quinn family welcomed the extra interest in the story and it's perfectly normal in a normal society for media to challenge anyone in politics who has links to criminal gangs.

All this stuff about the southern media just seems like veiled support for the killers or their protectors

What a load of guff. You accused me of making a "dispicable comment" purely because I pointed out the fact that the British Government's IMC report said it was not an IRA murder and was rooted in a local criminal feud.

So yes, we both can search for internet results for evidence of this and that, but no point throwing a hissy fit when its pointed out that no matter how many websites you visit, according to those actually investigating the murder, the IRA had far less involvement (and organisationally/leadership level had no involvement) in it than you'd like them to have had.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 11:06:54 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

The former FG minister for justice is complicit in frustrating the McAnespie family and their bid for justice.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 11:16:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

Nobody standing in the election has ever been suggested by anybody as having been involved in the Quinn murder either.

But if it's SF as a party that you are trying to link to the murder, and if Aidan McAnespie isn't a good enough parallel for you, well then Fine Gael too were standing in the election, and that party led the cover up of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings - the single greatest loss of life of the conflict, covered up by the FG/Lab government of the day. Are they ever challenged on that by the media at any election time?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on July 12, 2020, 11:31:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 11:05:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 12, 2020, 11:01:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:08:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 12, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
You don't really want comment you just want a platform to rant.

I think it's very pertinent when people are screaming blue murder over SF and Pual Quinn when successive free state governments have actively tried to suppress justice for victims of British state terrorism on this island.

Your head is fried sur

Do you not think there is something utterly wrong with a government minister actively obstructing a family's quest for justice of an unarmed man who was shot in the back and killed by an occupying soldier?

The bottom line is the Free State establishment could not give a single toss about an innocent nationalist who lost their lives at the hands of the Brits or Loyalists.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-51031136 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-51031136)
Former soldier to stand trial for shooting

Speaking afterwards, Aidan McAnespie's brother Vincent welcomed the decision.

"The family is very happy after such a long process of waiting to get to this stage that the judge has strongly come out firmly saying that yes - there is a case to be answered," he said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43144010

The report could be absolutely vital in securing a conviction but the Free State government will not release it.
I don't disagree with your sentimets re the supresssion of the report on McAnespie's murder. And as soon as SF hit some high point  in the election polls the southern media and opposition politicians  dragged up the grusome murder of Quinn  solely for political mud purposes.
My point was that it had no effect on the polls for Sinn Fein, while they railed about this grusome murder the polls still rose for SF.
The southern opposition to SF will have to debate SF on a current political issue platform, whatever gruesome event that happened in the north no longer has any currency in the south with the new generation and neither have the allegations of hidden hands of mysterious puppet master  northern provo godfathers
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 13, 2020, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 11:16:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

Nobody standing in the election has ever been suggested by anybody as having been involved in the Quinn murder either.

But if it's SF as a party that you are trying to link to the murder, and if Aidan McAnespie isn't a good enough parallel for you, well then Fine Gael too were standing in the election, and that party led the cover up of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings - the single greatest loss of life of the conflict, covered up by the FG/Lab government of the day. Are they ever challenged on that by the media at any election time?
Seriously.what a load of balls hi. Sin é
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 12:51:00 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 11:06:54 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

The former FG minister for justice is complicit in frustrating the McAnespie family and their bid for justice.
There is I believe going to be a trial of a soldier for the killing of poor Aidan.
That trial will be decided on the evidence presented to the trial.
The 26 Co Minister for Justice or the Gardai will hardly be calied to give evidence as they wern't witnesses to the awful event.

Meanwhile SF increased their vote by 2.4 from May 2019 to Feb 2020.
I suspect most of the extra 14% weren't born before the ceasefire in 1994 and certainly not before 1985.
Few of them would be old enough to recall the Quinn murder either.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:06:14 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 12:51:00 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 11:06:54 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

The former FG minister for justice is complicit in frustrating the McAnespie family and their bid for justice.
There is I believe going to be a trial of a soldier for the killing of poor Aidan.
That trial will be decided on the evidence presented to the trial.
The 26 Co Minister for Justice or the Gardai will hardly be calied to give evidence as they wern't witnesses to the awful event.

Meanwhile SF increased their vote by 2.4 from May 2019 to Feb 2020.
I suspect most of the extra 14% weren't born before the ceasefire in 1994 and certainly not before 1985.
Few of them would be old enough to recall the Quinn murder either.

But free staters are well versed in moralising about the troubles when it wasn't them who were subjected to harassment, violence and intimidation by state security forces so maybe they should keep their sanctimony to themselves?

It's easy from the cheap seats.

The McAnespie family were desperate to get that report released as it greatly increases their chances of a conviction. Why are the Free State government so intent on covering up British state sponsored murders on this island? Maybe you should examine that?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:15:15 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:06:14 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 12:51:00 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 11:06:54 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

The former FG minister for justice is complicit in frustrating the McAnespie family and their bid for justice.
There is I believe going to be a trial of a soldier for the killing of poor Aidan.
That trial will be decided on the evidence presented to the trial.
The 26 Co Minister for Justice or the Gardai will hardly be calied to give evidence as they wern't witnesses to the awful event.

Meanwhile SF increased their vote by 2.4 from May 2019 to Feb 2020.
I suspect most of the extra 14% weren't born before the ceasefire in 1994 and certainly not before 1985.
Few of them would be old enough to recall the Quinn murder either.

But free staters are well versed in moralising about the troubles when it wasn't them who were subjected to harassment, violence and intimidation by state security forces so maybe they should keep their sanctimony to themselves?

It's easy from the cheap seats.

The McAnespie family were desperate to get that report released as it greatly increases their chances of a conviction. Why are the Free State government so intent on covering up British state sponsored murders on this island? Maybe you should examine that?

You are posing a question that was answered already, in the bit in bold above.

There is nobody down here who doesn't want to see justice done for the McAnespie murder.

If the soldier who fired at him, or any of his colleagues, supporters or apologists, stood for election or lectured us on standards and morality, we'd take a dim view of it, just as many of us do of the provos who committed, support and apologise for similar atrocities.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 13, 2020, 10:22:41 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:15:15 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:06:14 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 12:51:00 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 12, 2020, 11:06:54 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

The former FG minister for justice is complicit in frustrating the McAnespie family and their bid for justice.
There is I believe going to be a trial of a soldier for the killing of poor Aidan.
That trial will be decided on the evidence presented to the trial.
The 26 Co Minister for Justice or the Gardai will hardly be calied to give evidence as they wern't witnesses to the awful event.

Meanwhile SF increased their vote by 2.4 from May 2019 to Feb 2020.
I suspect most of the extra 14% weren't born before the ceasefire in 1994 and certainly not before 1985.
Few of them would be old enough to recall the Quinn murder either.

But free staters are well versed in moralising about the troubles when it wasn't them who were subjected to harassment, violence and intimidation by state security forces so maybe they should keep their sanctimony to themselves?

It's easy from the cheap seats.

The McAnespie family were desperate to get that report released as it greatly increases their chances of a conviction. Why are the Free State government so intent on covering up British state sponsored murders on this island? Maybe you should examine that?

You are posing a question that was answered already, in the bit in bold above.

There is nobody down here who doesn't want to see justice done for the McAnespie murder.

If the soldier who fired at him, or any of his colleagues, supporters or apologists, stood for election or lectured us on standards and morality, we'd take a dim view of it, just as many of us do of the provos who committed, support and apologise for similar atrocities.

+1
Also contrast this with how SF conducted themselves regarding the murder of Jerry McCabe constantly calling for his murders to be released early.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial. Or it may be that the contents of the report might damage the chances of a trial happening in the first place?

Given the circumstances of the case, I don't for a second accept that anyone in positions of power down here wants to cover it up, any more that they'd want to cover up the Enniskillen or Omagh bombings.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial.

How would releasing an independent report carried out at the time prejudice a trial?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial.

How would releasing an independent report carried out at the time prejudice a trial?

You'll have to answer that yourself. It is a possibility.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:37:18 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial.

How would releasing an independent report carried out at the time prejudice a trial?

You'll have to answer that yourself. It is a possibility.

That's the reasoning you gave and you can't even stand behind it. Just sums up your double standards.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:37:18 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:32:28 AM

How would releasing an independent report carried out at the time prejudice a trial?

You'll have to answer that yourself. It is a possibility.

That's the reasoning you gave and you can't even stand behind it. Just sums up your double standards.

It's a statement of fact FFS. A defective report if published in the public domain could mess up an entire prosecution case. Look at the mess of the Guerin report into Garda corruption.  No prosecution case would survive a similar shambles.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:37:18 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:32:28 AM

How would releasing an independent report carried out at the time prejudice a trial?

You'll have to answer that yourself. It is a possibility.

That's the reasoning you gave and you can't even stand behind it. Just sums up your double standards.

It's a statement of fact FFS. A defective report if published in the public domain could mess up an entire prosecution case. Look at the mess of the Guerin report into Garda corruption.  No prosecution case would survive a similar shambles.

Utterly, utterly absurd.

It's an independent Garda report into the killing of McAnespie that was conducted at the time. It is absolutely vital that is released and heard and the McAnespie family and their legal team are desperate for it to be released. Do you think their legal team want to mess up the prosecution?

You really are a special type of halfwit.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:48:27 AM

Utterly, utterly absurd.

It's an independent Garda report into the killing of McAnespie that was conducted at the time. It is absolutely vital that is released and heard and the McAnespie family and their legal team are desperate for it to be released. Do you think their legal team want to mess up the prosecution?

You really are a special type of halfwit.

That's ok if you want it that way but I am not going down the road of insulting you.

You can debate this with yourself and find out your answers yourself.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 11:22:05 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:48:27 AM

Utterly, utterly absurd.

It's an independent Garda report into the killing of McAnespie that was conducted at the time. It is absolutely vital that is released and heard and the McAnespie family and their legal team are desperate for it to be released. Do you think their legal team want to mess up the prosecution?

You really are a special type of halfwit.

That's ok if you want it that way but I am not going down the road of insulting you.

You can debate this with yourself and find out your answers yourself.

I'm not insulting you. I'm just drawing light to your idiotic comments which you are explaining, idiotically.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:30:33 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 11:22:05 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 10:48:27 AM

Utterly, utterly absurd.

It's an independent Garda report into the killing of McAnespie that was conducted at the time. It is absolutely vital that is released and heard and the McAnespie family and their legal team are desperate for it to be released. Do you think their legal team want to mess up the prosecution?

You really are a special type of halfwit.

That's ok if you want it that way but I am not going down the road of insulting you.

You can debate this with yourself and find out your answers yourself.

I'm not insulting you. I'm just drawing light to your idiotic comments which you are explaining, idiotically.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 11:26:31 AM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know
I'd say that was enough.

I think if it didnt implicate the Gardai/government or their friends north of the border in something that doesnt smell good it would have been released. Protecting them is more important than getting justice for Aidan McAnespie. And that is why it is hypocrisy for the media to drag up one murder and ignore another. Anyone with half a brain knows that the southern media were out to stop Sinn Fein and were ably supplied with information by FF/FG TD.

Just like Thomas Byrne squealed on his colleage Barry Cowen to the Indo like a petulant child, a story that no southern media outlets seems to have picked up at all - how strange!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Just like Thomas Byrne squealed on his colleage Barry Cowen to the Indo like a petulant child, a story that no southern media outlets seems to have picked up at all - how strange!
Not strange at all, just a reflection of our defamation laws.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 12:07:08 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Just like Thomas Byrne squealed on his colleage Barry Cowen to the Indo like a petulant child, a story that no southern media outlets seems to have picked up at all - how strange!
Not strange at all, just a reflection of our defamation laws.

They have no problems rolling the dice on defamation laws when it comes to SF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 12:14:32 PM
You might give is a few real examples please ?

And try and avoid the use of the obsolete term "free state".
That was abolished in 1937 and is usually only used by Northern extremists lecturing the people they claim they want to unite with.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on July 13, 2020, 01:22:00 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 12:14:32 PM
You might give is a few real examples please ?

And try and avoid the use of the obsolete term "free state".
That was abolished in 1937 and is usually only used by Northern extremists lecturing the people they claim they want to unite with.
+1
'nuff said!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 01:24:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 12:14:32 PM
You might give is a few real examples please ?

And try and avoid the use of the obsolete term "free state".
That was abolished in 1937 and is usually only used by Northern extremists lecturing the people they claim they want to unite with.

Real examples of what?

It's the free state to me. Partitionists like yourself might not understand that republicans will view the two states on this island as illegitimate.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Just like Thomas Byrne squealed on his colleage Barry Cowen to the Indo like a petulant child, a story that no southern media outlets seems to have picked up at all - how strange!
Not strange at all, just a reflection of our defamation laws.

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain. But sure you know that well.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 01:45:41 PM
So Angelo Sinn Féin and Aontú arent"republicans" then?
They stand for election to and take their seats in Dáil and Assembly.
I trust those "republicans" who view the 26 and 6 as being "illegitimate" don't use any of the States' facilities like schools or take pensions or Social welfare etc from such bodies.

I take it you haven't heard of the GFA or the referendums held afterwards to endorse it?

I asked you for examples of media defaming Sinn Féin as you said they have no problem doing so.

Can't help wondering have you finished primary school yet?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain.

It might well be if the allegation turns out to be false, does irrecoverable harm to Byrne's career or reputation and that harm is shown to have been magnified by a media outlet publishing it without adequate verification.

Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
But sure you know that well.

No, IANAL and never claim to be such.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:25:39 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain.

It might well be if the allegation turns out to be false, does irrecoverable harm to Byrne's career or reputation and that harm is shown to have been magnified by a media outlet publishing it without adequate verification.

Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
But sure you know that well.

No, IANAL and never claim to be such.

Defamation laws have never bothered them running stories about SF politicians. So why should it it they are FF or FG.

The Grace case involving Michael Noonan was swept away without a dickie bird. The allegations there are absolutely scandalous but the media have no interest in it. Why?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:28:25 PM
Anyway the Byrne story is on the Irish Times home page today. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/thomas-byrne-denies-being-source-of-barry-cowen-drink-driving-story-1.4303184

And ditto on the Independent. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/minister-denies-being-source-of-revelations-about-barry-cowens-drink-driving-39363078.html

Another conspiracy theory gone to dust. Who wudda thunk it?  8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 02:32:27 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 13, 2020, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 12, 2020, 11:16:14 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 12, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 12, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
I'm assuming that his point is that it is as relevant to a 26 county election (if not more relevant) as Paul Quinn's murder is but that it doesn't receive anywhere near the same media coverage.

Much better put. But I'm not sure anyone standing in elections in 26 had any connection to the McAnespie murder, I think the comparison is very weak.

Nobody standing in the election has ever been suggested by anybody as having been involved in the Quinn murder either.

But if it's SF as a party that you are trying to link to the murder, and if Aidan McAnespie isn't a good enough parallel for you, well then Fine Gael too were standing in the election, and that party led the cover up of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings - the single greatest loss of life of the conflict, covered up by the FG/Lab government of the day. Are they ever challenged on that by the media at any election time?
Seriously.what a load of balls hi. Sin é

What bit is balls? Are you denying that FG covered up the truth of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings? Or is it that you only believe SF should face questions about the conflict at election time?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial. Or it may be that the contents of the report might damage the chances of a trial happening in the first place?

Given the circumstances of the case, I don't for a second accept that anyone in positions of power down here wants to cover it up, any more that they'd want to cover up the Enniskillen or Omagh bombings.

How do you explain the FG/Lab Government's reaction to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings which was nothing short of a cover up?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:25:39 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain.

It might well be if the allegation turns out to be false, does irrecoverable harm to Byrne's career or reputation and that harm is shown to have been magnified by a media outlet publishing it without adequate verification.

Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
But sure you know that well.

No, IANAL and never claim to be such.

Defamation laws have never bothered them running stories about SF politicians. So why should it it they are FF or FG.

The Grace case involving Michael Noonan was swept away without a dickie bird. The allegations there are absolutely scandalous but the media have no interest in it. Why?
What stories about SF politicians?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:48:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:25:39 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain.

It might well be if the allegation turns out to be false, does irrecoverable harm to Byrne's career or reputation and that harm is shown to have been magnified by a media outlet publishing it without adequate verification.

Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
But sure you know that well.

No, IANAL and never claim to be such.

Defamation laws have never bothered them running stories about SF politicians. So why should it it they are FF or FG.

The Grace case involving Michael Noonan was swept away without a dickie bird. The allegations there are absolutely scandalous but the media have no interest in it. Why?
What stories about SF politicians?

There's been tonnes of defamatory stories relating to Gerry Adams and the IRA that he could instigate legal action against at any point.

It doesn't stop them running them at any point whatsoever. I'd love to find out what sort of bubble you live in.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:53:16 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial. Or it may be that the contents of the report might damage the chances of a trial happening in the first place?

Given the circumstances of the case, I don't for a second accept that anyone in positions of power down here wants to cover it up, any more that they'd want to cover up the Enniskillen or Omagh bombings.

How do you explain the FG/Lab Government's reaction to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings which was nothing short of a cover up?

It's not just the FG/Labour gov at that time. It is every single successive Free State government since which has shown utterly zero interest in achieving justice for the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan.

Look at all we have found out about British intelligence, the FRU, Captain Nairac, the Glennane Gang and how far and wide collusion spread in the other. All those factors have been shown to be somewhere linked to the Dublin Monaghan bombings and there is zero appetite from the successive Free State governments since then to pursue that justice.

The biggest act of terrorism in the free state's history and they have no interest in finding the answers because it leads to British state.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial. Or it may be that the contents of the report might damage the chances of a trial happening in the first place?

Given the circumstances of the case, I don't for a second accept that anyone in positions of power down here wants to cover it up, any more that they'd want to cover up the Enniskillen or Omagh bombings.

How do you explain the FG/Lab Government's reaction to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings which was nothing short of a cover up?

You've answered your own question.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 03:04:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:48:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:25:39 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain.

It might well be if the allegation turns out to be false, does irrecoverable harm to Byrne's career or reputation and that harm is shown to have been magnified by a media outlet publishing it without adequate verification.

Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
But sure you know that well.

No, IANAL and never claim to be such.

Defamation laws have never bothered them running stories about SF politicians. So why should it it they are FF or FG.

The Grace case involving Michael Noonan was swept away without a dickie bird. The allegations there are absolutely scandalous but the media have no interest in it. Why?
What stories about SF politicians?

There's been tonnes of defamatory stories relating to Gerry Adams and the IRA that he could instigate legal action against at any point.


So why doesn't he then?

You might provide an example of say 2  such stories please?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 03:21:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 03:04:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:48:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 02:25:39 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain.

It might well be if the allegation turns out to be false, does irrecoverable harm to Byrne's career or reputation and that harm is shown to have been magnified by a media outlet publishing it without adequate verification.

Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
But sure you know that well.

No, IANAL and never claim to be such.

Defamation laws have never bothered them running stories about SF politicians. So why should it it they are FF or FG.

The Grace case involving Michael Noonan was swept away without a dickie bird. The allegations there are absolutely scandalous but the media have no interest in it. Why?
What stories about SF politicians?

There's been tonnes of defamatory stories relating to Gerry Adams and the IRA that he could instigate legal action against at any point.


So why doesn't he then?

You might provide an example of say 2  such stories please?

He has and he can.


https://www.thejournal.ie/lmfm-apology-gerry-adams-4707944-Jul2019/

https://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/gerry-adams-claims-he-wasnt-in-the-ira-and-threatens-to-sue-the-herald-14893

He is currently in legal action against the BBC over allegations they made on Spotlight. He has taken action against the Independent and Belfast Telegraph before, among others.

You must live in a bubble.

Defamation is not the reason for the media ignoring bad news stories about the establishment parties.

The Grace case is one of the biggest scandals you could think about involving a Government minister and has been effectively buried by the media. It has been frustrated as Noonan is elderly and in poor health, they want to stall it for whatever remains of his life
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 13, 2020, 03:26:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 03:21:16 PM
The Grace case is one of the biggest scandals you could think about involving a Government minister and has been effectively buried by the media. It has been frustrated as Noonan is elderly and in poor health, they want to stall it for whatever remains of his life

First I've heard of that and there seems to be nothing online about it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:28:25 PM
Anyway the Byrne story is on the Irish Times home page today. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/thomas-byrne-denies-being-source-of-barry-cowen-drink-driving-story-1.4303184

And ditto on the Independent. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/minister-denies-being-source-of-revelations-about-barry-cowens-drink-driving-39363078.html

Another conspiracy theory gone to dust. Who wudda thunk it?  8)

Yes, by coincidence it has broken today - 5 days after the allegations were made. Now why would it have taken 5 days?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 03:26:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 03:21:16 PM
The Grace case is one of the biggest scandals you could think about involving a Government minister and has been effectively buried by the media. It has been frustrated as Noonan is elderly and in poor health, they want to stall it for whatever remains of his life

First I've heard of that and there seems to be nothing online about it.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/michael-noonan-my-health-is-fine-35076409.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 05:41:23 PM
So Gerry got
an apology;
a case he took thrown out and
didnt proceed with his threat to sue another paper.

That Tom Oliver case tells us a lot about what the Provos were like.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 05:51:53 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 13, 2020, 10:28:08 AM

To be fair, I don't think the question has been answered at all. The question, as far as I am reading, is why do they refuse to release the report (therefore helping to cover up state sponsored murder....)?

I don't know enough about that but it may be to avoid prejudicing a trial. Or it may be that the contents of the report might damage the chances of a trial happening in the first place?

Given the circumstances of the case, I don't for a second accept that anyone in positions of power down here wants to cover it up, any more that they'd want to cover up the Enniskillen or Omagh bombings.

How do you explain the FG/Lab Government's reaction to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings which was nothing short of a cover up?

You've answered your own question.

No I haven't. You have implied/said that there couldn't be a cover up of the McAnespie Case/Enniskillen bomb/Omagh etc in the south because you can't think that there is any good reason why the southern establishment would want to be involved in a cover up.

So why do you think they covered up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 06:06:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 05:41:23 PM
So Gerry got
an apology;
a case he took thrown out and
didnt proceed with his threat to sue another paper.

That Tom Oliver case tells us a lot about what the Provos were like.

The Ballyseedy killings and Dunmanway massacre tells us a lot what the old IRA were like.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 06:51:27 PM
Whatabout.....
Ballyseedy was done by your favourites - "freestaters" ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 06:56:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 06:51:27 PM
Whatabout.....
Ballyseedy was done by your favourites - "freestaters" ;D
When you raise Tom Oliver out of the blue, can you really accuse anyone of indulging in "whataboutery"?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 07:01:23 PM
Angelo had posted a link which concerned the Tom Oliver abduction, torture and murder😉.
Seems it was another Steaknife treacherous evil deed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 06:51:27 PM
Whatabout.....
Ballyseedy was done by your favourites - "freestaters" ;D

Once again your double standards are exposed.

The pro and anti treaty were both factions of the old IRA and the bloody mindedness of the civil war is also the legacy of the old IRA.

As much as the free staters like to pick and choose their moments, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on July 13, 2020, 07:50:44 PM
Which one of  pro / anti  was it who betrayed Robert Emmet?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 07:54:08 PM
I don't recall saying I agreed with those 2 events you whatabouted.
The old IRA to Spring 1922 were fighting for what the people voted for.
The FS Army were doing the same from the Election in April/May 1922.
I condemn both events.
Do you condemn what was done to Mr Oliver?

Once again please note the Irish Free State was abolished 31/12/1937.
Stop the incorrect labelling of the people who live in the 26 Counties.
It's the lines of you will cause any Unity referendum to be lost in the 26.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on July 13, 2020, 09:21:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 07:54:08 PM
I don't recall saying I agreed with those 2 events you whatabouted.
The old IRA to Spring 1922 were fighting for what the people voted for.
The FS Army were doing the same from the Election in April/May 1922.
I condemn both events.
Do you condemn what was done to Mr Oliver?

Once again please note the Irish Free State was abolished 31/12/1937.
Stop the incorrect labelling of the people who live in the 26 Counties.
It's the lines of you will cause any Unity referendum to be lost in the 26.

I can't absolve you of your free state shame.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 11:26:55 PM
Do you condemn what was done to Mr Oliver?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 14, 2020, 10:10:47 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 05:51:53 PM


No I haven't. You have implied/said that there couldn't be a cover up of the McAnespie Case/Enniskillen bomb/Omagh etc in the south because you can't think that there is any good reason why the southern establishment would want to be involved in a cover up.

I did neither and you know that, otherwise you wouldn't have used "implied/said" as an each way bet.

Quote from: Snapchap on July 13, 2020, 05:51:53 PM


So why do you think they covered up the Dublin/Monaghan bombings?
Because their hands were dirty in the latter?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 14, 2020, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:28:25 PM
Anyway the Byrne story is on the Irish Times home page today. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/thomas-byrne-denies-being-source-of-barry-cowen-drink-driving-story-1.4303184

And ditto on the Independent. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/minister-denies-being-source-of-revelations-about-barry-cowens-drink-driving-39363078.html

Another conspiracy theory gone to dust. Who wudda thunk it?  8)

Yes, by coincidence it has broken today - 5 days after the allegations were made. Now why would it have taken 5 days?

Because Thomas Byrne chose yesterday to deny it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:28:25 PM
Anyway the Byrne story is on the Irish Times home page today. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/thomas-byrne-denies-being-source-of-barry-cowen-drink-driving-story-1.4303184

And ditto on the Independent. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/minister-denies-being-source-of-revelations-about-barry-cowens-drink-driving-39363078.html

Another conspiracy theory gone to dust. Who wudda thunk it?  8)

Yes, by coincidence it has broken today - 5 days after the allegations were made. Now why would it have taken 5 days?

Because Thomas Byrne chose yesterday to deny it.

So it was only a story when he denied it but not when he was accused of it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 14, 2020, 01:22:44 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 02:28:25 PM
Anyway the Byrne story is on the Irish Times home page today. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/thomas-byrne-denies-being-source-of-barry-cowen-drink-driving-story-1.4303184

And ditto on the Independent. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/minister-denies-being-source-of-revelations-about-barry-cowens-drink-driving-39363078.html

Another conspiracy theory gone to dust. Who wudda thunk it?  8)

Yes, by coincidence it has broken today - 5 days after the allegations were made. Now why would it have taken 5 days?

Because Thomas Byrne chose yesterday to deny it.

So it was only a story when he denied it but not when he was accused of it?
I presume so.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2020, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2020, 11:26:55 PM
Do you condemn what was done to Mr Oliver?
I'll take it as a no then and that Angelo approves of the abduction, torture and murder of Mr Oliver.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 14, 2020, 04:52:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Just like Thomas Byrne squealed on his colleage Barry Cowen to the Indo like a petulant child, a story that no southern media outlets seems to have picked up at all - how strange!
Not strange at all, just a reflection of our defamation laws.

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain. But sure you know that well.
It is if its false, and he is denying it.

The Cowen clan seem to have a drink problem.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 04:54:43 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 14, 2020, 04:52:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Just like Thomas Byrne squealed on his colleage Barry Cowen to the Indo like a petulant child, a story that no southern media outlets seems to have picked up at all - how strange!
Not strange at all, just a reflection of our defamation laws.

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain. But sure you know that well.
It is if its false, and he is denying it.

The Cowen clan seem to have a drink problem.

You dont think it is a story in itself that a FF TD basically tried to sabotage a fellow FF TD our of jealousy by leaking incriminating info to the media. Youd have to have a deep hatred of SF to not accept the reality of the two faces of the Irish media here.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 14, 2020, 06:02:32 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?

Compared to what?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2020, 09:06:57 PM
Barry Cowen has been sacked as Agriculture Minister
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:47:06 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?

Even they couldn't bury this latest shitfest  ;)

Cowen sacked, Thomas byrne did some job on him.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on July 14, 2020, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:47:06 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?

Even they couldn't bury this latest shitfest  ;)

Cowen sacked, Thomas byrne did some job on him.

If he was a Shinner u would have blamed the media  ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 14, 2020, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:47:06 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?

Even they couldn't bury this latest shitfest  ;)

Cowen sacked, Thomas byrne did some job on him.

If he was a Shinner u would have blamed the media  ;)

Cowan made a mistake, I'm more disgusted with the slimeball Byrne. Try to keep up.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on July 14, 2020, 10:11:25 PM
Not even close to the point I was trying to make, but I suppose if I'm explaining I'm not winning so I'll leave alone..
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on July 14, 2020, 10:13:27 PM
Wait til they announce the pubs not opening for another 4 weeks tomorrow, government satisfaction will go through the floor.... People care about the important things in life
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 12:18:31 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 04:54:43 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 14, 2020, 04:52:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: five points on July 13, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
Just like Thomas Byrne squealed on his colleage Barry Cowen to the Indo like a petulant child, a story that no southern media outlets seems to have picked up at all - how strange!
Not strange at all, just a reflection of our defamation laws.

Its not defamation to report what one of Thomas Byrnes activists put up on twitter hence putting it into the public domain. But sure you know that well.
It is if its false, and he is denying it.

The Cowen clan seem to have a drink problem.

You dont think it is a story in itself that a FF TD basically tried to sabotage a fellow FF TD our of jealousy by leaking incriminating info to the media. Youd have to have a deep hatred of SF to not accept the reality of the two faces of the Irish media here.

Of course I do. But a randomer saying something on Twitter doesn't mean the press can just run the story.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 12:20:44 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 14, 2020, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:47:06 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?

Even they couldn't bury this latest shitfest  ;)

Cowen sacked, Thomas byrne did some job on him.

If he was a Shinner u would have blamed the media  ;)

Cowan made a mistake, I'm more disgusted with the slimeball Byrne. Try to keep up.

Which mistake?

Drink driving?
Speeding?
Driving on a provisional with no plates or accompanying driver?
Keeping it out of the press?
Lying to Martin about it?
Refusing to answer questions in the house?
Calling the Garda liars?
Claiming full driving expenses plus a train pass while off the road?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2020, 01:24:47 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 12:20:44 AM
Which mistake?

Drink driving?
Speeding?
Driving on a provisional with no plates or accompanying driver?
Keeping it out of the press?
Lying to Martin about it?
Refusing to answer questions in the house?
Calling the Garda liars?
Claiming full driving expenses plus a train pass while off the road?

That's the point. One incident and he would have got away with the apology. Every dog and one bite and all that.
But he was at it for years, which is a pattern of behaviour.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: fearbrags on July 15, 2020, 04:03:25 AM
https://gript.ie/ff-activist-thomas-byrne-shafted-cowen/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on July 15, 2020, 09:31:17 AM
Probably be replaced by a Green. All animals culled let the fields go wild, everyone get naked, smoke some grass and howl at the moon.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2020, 10:16:25 AM
What were you smoking?
FF will be keeping the agriculture post.
Must be a lot more involved than just the over the limit for him to be sacked as opposed to "stepping aside".
FF certainly arent boring anyway.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 11:33:55 AM
Quote from: Rudi on July 15, 2020, 09:31:17 AM
Probably be replaced by a Green. All animals culled let the fields go wild, everyone get naked, smoke some grass and howl at the moon.
Absolutely not. Martin will fill this role carefully to 'heal' the party. Definitely someone from the country and western wing who is loyal but wavering.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on July 15, 2020, 11:36:49 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 11:33:55 AM
Quote from: Rudi on July 15, 2020, 09:31:17 AM
Probably be replaced by a Green. All animals culled let the fields go wild, everyone get naked, smoke some grass and howl at the moon.
Absolutely not. Martin will fill this role carefully to 'heal' the party. Definitely someone from the country and western wing who is loyal but wavering.

Jaysus I know, twas a joke :o88
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 15, 2020, 11:39:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 12:20:44 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 14, 2020, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:47:06 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?

Even they couldn't bury this latest shitfest  ;)

Cowen sacked, Thomas byrne did some job on him.

If he was a Shinner u would have blamed the media  ;)

Cowan made a mistake, I'm more disgusted with the slimeball Byrne. Try to keep up.

Which mistake?

Drink driving?
Speeding?
Driving on a provisional with no plates or accompanying driver?
Keeping it out of the press?
Lying to Martin about it?
Refusing to answer questions in the house?
Calling the Garda liars?
Claiming full driving expenses plus a train pass while off the road?

When I wrote my comment I only new about Drink Driving, that he'd had a ban for 3 months. The rest I am only hearing now. So if that is all true (IF) then he did get what he deserved. What did An Taoiseach know about this I wonder before this week
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 15, 2020, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on July 15, 2020, 04:03:25 AM
https://gript.ie/ff-activist-thomas-byrne-shafted-cowen/

Apparently that wasn't newsworthy until Thomas Byrne denied it and Ken McFadden is a "some randomer on twitter"
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 15, 2020, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on July 15, 2020, 04:03:25 AM
https://gript.ie/ff-activist-thomas-byrne-shafted-cowen/

Apparently that wasn't newsworthy until Thomas Byrne denied it and Ken McFadden is a "some randomer on twitter"

Look at your source. An extremiat blog.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 15, 2020, 12:39:42 PM
Extremist my nelly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rudi on July 15, 2020, 01:32:34 PM
Callery back in the hot tub tonight with Martin. Callery is spineless, should have told Martin to feck off, if he wasnt deemed good enough first time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on July 15, 2020, 01:51:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 15, 2020, 11:39:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 12:20:44 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 14, 2020, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 14, 2020, 09:47:06 PM
Quote from: five points on July 14, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Some of the lads here would pick a fight with their own shadow. Is there anyone who doesn't think the Irish media are sh1t?

Even they couldn't bury this latest shitfest  ;)

Cowen sacked, Thomas byrne did some job on him.

If he was a Shinner u would have blamed the media  ;)

Cowan made a mistake, I'm more disgusted with the slimeball Byrne. Try to keep up.

Which mistake?

Drink driving?
Speeding?
Driving on a provisional with no plates or accompanying driver?
Keeping it out of the press?
Lying to Martin about it?
Refusing to answer questions in the house?
Calling the Garda liars?
Claiming full driving expenses plus a train pass while off the road?

When I wrote my comment I only new about Drink Driving, that he'd had a ban for 3 months. The rest I am only hearing now. So if that is all true (IF) then he did get what he deserved. What did An Taoiseach know about this I wonder before this week

True. SDLP's 'sister' party in a mess after 2 weeks. Firstly Dara C looking for a big gig but no joy, then no ministers in the west and north-west etc.

Then the Cowan situation with added spice with Byrne and correct Itchy, what did MM know about it at the time and more recently? He looked very sheepish when grilled by MLMD yesterday, as if he knew there's a storm brewing.

Very bad start for SDLP/Fianna Gael.  The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 02:06:14 PM
Is Cowan gone?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2020, 02:44:07 PM
Everyone happy, Mayo get their Minister and a Junior for the mIdlands.
----------------------------------

Dara Calleary has been appointed Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine after Barry Cowen was sacked last night by the Taoiseach Micheál Martin.
Mr Calleary had been Chief Whip and Junior Minister for the Gaeltacht until his appointment this afternoon.
Junior Minister at the Department of Finance Jack Chambers has been promoted to take over Mr Calleary's role as Government Chief Whip.
Laois/Offaly TD Sean Fleming has been appointed Minister of State at the Department of Finance to fill Mr Chambers' role.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: five points on July 15, 2020, 12:39:42 PM
Extremist my nelly.
Youth Defence aren't extremist?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 02:06:14 PM
Is Cowan gone?
Yes. And has engaged lawyers to ensure he gets a ministerial pension.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 15, 2020, 02:50:55 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: five points on July 15, 2020, 12:39:42 PM
Extremist my nelly.
Youth Defence aren't extremist?

Do they even exist anymore? McGuirk isn't a member anyway and never was.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 15, 2020, 03:24:02 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: five points on July 15, 2020, 12:39:42 PM
Extremist my nelly.
Youth Defence aren't extremist?

Lad, he may or may not have extreme views on some things but that article is basically laying out a few simple facts. Just because you don't like the truth doesn't make the author an extremist
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 03:24:43 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 02:06:14 PM
Is Cowan gone?
Yes. And has engaged lawyers to ensure he gets a ministerial pension.

Goes without saying in a public body.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 15, 2020, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 02:06:14 PM
Is Cowan gone?
Yes. And has engaged lawyers to ensure he gets a ministerial pension.

If he has, they've duped him and he should ask for his money back.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/just-how-are-ministers-pensions-worked-out-1.559289

QuoteA number of positions attract a pension entitlement over and above that earned by a TD or senator. These positions are taoiseach, tánaiste, minister, attorney general and ceann comhairle (called "ministerial" offices for pension purposes) and minister of state, leas cheann comhairle, cathaoirleach, leas-chathaoirleach and leader of the Seanad (called "secretarial" posts for pension purposes).

To receive this pension entitlement you have to have served for at least two years in one of these offices.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 15, 2020, 03:46:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 03:24:43 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 02:06:14 PM
Is Cowan gone?
Yes. And has engaged lawyers to ensure he gets a ministerial pension.

Goes without saying in a public body.

Maybe it is unfair dismissal he is after? He made a big tweet crying about his treatment as soon as it was announced
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 15, 2020, 04:01:56 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 15, 2020, 03:46:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 03:24:43 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on July 15, 2020, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on July 15, 2020, 02:06:14 PM
Is Cowan gone?
Yes. And has engaged lawyers to ensure he gets a ministerial pension.

Goes without saying in a public body.

Maybe it is unfair dismissal he is after? He made a big tweet crying about his treatment as soon as it was announced

There's no such thing when you're a minister.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on July 15, 2020, 05:54:03 PM
Michael Martin looked a little more Putinish  this morning. Still aways to go for him though.

If that over-entitled arrogant culchie Cowen is representative of the current Fianna Fail stock, it's no wonder they're a dying breed.
Either that or the culling of Cowan will make them stronger.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on July 15, 2020, 10:18:06 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 15, 2020, 05:54:03 PM
Michael Martin looked a little more Putinish  this morning. Still aways to go for him though.

If that over-entitled arrogant culchie Cowen is representative of the current Fianna Fail stock, it's no wonder they're a dying breed.
Either that or the culling of Cowan will make them stronger.

If all they have coming up through the ranks is Jack Chambers, Fianna Fail have a lot of difficult days ahead.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on July 15, 2020, 10:46:41 PM
This Cowan boy sounds like a proper clown.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2020, 11:31:02 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 15, 2020, 05:54:03 PM
If that over-entitled arrogant culchie Cowen is representative of the current Fianna Fail stock, it's no wonder they're a dying breed.
Either that or the culling of Cowan will make them stronger.

WTF was he at? He clearly is a complete eejit or had no intention of making a ministerial career. Doing a driving test takes an hour, any serious person would have attended to that before long before running for election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 16, 2020, 01:25:11 AM
Quote from: five points on January 10, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.

The climate issue is not bogus, but the idea that is caused by Irish agriculture is.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on July 16, 2020, 09:52:54 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 16, 2020, 01:25:11 AM
Quote from: five points on January 10, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.

The climate issue is not bogus, but the idea that is caused by Irish agriculture is.

I don't disagree but the notion that there is a climate emergency is also IMHO bogus. The fact that a real emergency has materialised in the meantime underlines that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 16, 2020, 10:08:10 PM
Full story on Ken mcfadden tweet

https://gript.ie/exclusive-thomas-byrne-betrayed-barry-cowen-and-me-as-well/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 16, 2020, 10:26:53 PM
Micky Martin seems to have spread sweetness and light round Stormont today.
Even got the NS Ministerial back running again.
Executive looking for €€€€€a I suspect.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Blowitupref on July 16, 2020, 11:39:38 PM
https://www.balls.ie/amp/the-rewind/watch-green-party-leader-eamon-ryan-has-to-be-woken-up-to-take-part-in-dail-vote-440820?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Never beat the deeler on July 16, 2020, 11:55:37 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 16, 2020, 11:39:38 PM
https://www.balls.ie/amp/the-rewind/watch-green-party-leader-eamon-ryan-has-to-be-woken-up-to-take-part-in-dail-vote-440820?

We had a guy at work that was found sleeping in his ute on site.
He was sacked
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 17, 2020, 07:34:01 AM
 :Why was the place so empty.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 17, 2020, 09:33:29 AM
He wasn't the only TD asleep either. They were voting on a motion relating to pay low paid workers. Then you get what you vote for Ireland.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 21, 2020, 07:26:01 AM
Quite the scandal down south.

Judging by Twitter, the electorate are absolutely seething.

Gov on very shaky ground now, one more scandal or mess up away from collapsing you would feel. It's the death knell for FF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 21, 2020, 07:53:55 AM
Was there a need to change government during the pandemic? the new lads are like the tories e.g lack leadership and prone to embarrassing moments.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 08:39:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 21, 2020, 07:26:01 AM
Quite the scandal down south.

Judging by Twitter, the electorate are absolutely seething.

Gov on very shaky ground now, one more scandal or mess up away from collapsing you would feel. It's the death knell for FF.

I have to say even I am amazed at the sheer incompetence of this governement - one leader asleep in the Dail, idioitic inconsistent and illogical new rules on COVID, a health minister talking gibberish about trampolines (he is surely due a jump to a new party soon) and now a gang of them breaking their own rules blatently. Unbelievable.

What is shocking is that an RTE employee like Sean O Rourke is so cozy with the FF'ers and yet gets to slag off other parties on the national broadcaster, another fine example of the so called impartial national broadcaster in action.

And then Phil Hogan, lets see did he quarantine properly after returning from Belgium. No doubt the arrogant bollix will claim he has diplomatic immunity or something like that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on August 21, 2020, 08:43:52 AM
Seán O'Rourke is retired.
Phil Hogan has questions to ask.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 08:53:48 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 21, 2020, 08:43:52 AM
Seán O'Rourke is retired.
Phil Hogan has questions to ask.

Yes, I know he is retired but I think the mask has dropped anyway. If he truly was asking FF the hard questions over the years would he be this cosy with them? I dont think so.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 09:04:15 AM
Sean O'Rourke gave the game away about his politics during the 8th Amendment referendum campaign when he let the scumbags of the pro-death "pro-life" campaign away with murder

So no surprise that he was in attendance in Clifden
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 21, 2020, 09:12:46 AM
Quote from: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 08:39:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 21, 2020, 07:26:01 AM
Quite the scandal down south.

Judging by Twitter, the electorate are absolutely seething.

Gov on very shaky ground now, one more scandal or mess up away from collapsing you would feel. It's the death knell for FF.

I have to say even I am amazed at the sheer incompetence of this governement - one leader asleep in the Dail, idioitic inconsistent and illogical new rules on COVID, a health minister talking gibberish about trampolines (he is surely due a jump to a new party soon) and now a gang of them breaking their own rules blatently. Unbelievable.

What is shocking is that an RTE employee like Sean O Rourke is so cozy with the FF'ers and yet gets to slag off other parties on the national broadcaster, another fine example of the so called impartial national broadcaster in action.

And then Phil Hogan, lets see did he quarantine properly after returning from Belgium. No doubt the arrogant bollix will claim he has diplomatic immunity or something like that.

The most shocking thing was the O'Rourke one for me. The state broadcaster is joined at the hip with FFG and are not objective in their reporting. This proves it. O'Rourke was meant to be an impartial broadcaster on a current affairs show, in reality he was a FFG press officer, having heard his show in the past, this is no surprise.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 10:23:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 21, 2020, 09:12:46 AM
Quote from: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 08:39:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 21, 2020, 07:26:01 AM
Quite the scandal down south.

Judging by Twitter, the electorate are absolutely seething.

Gov on very shaky ground now, one more scandal or mess up away from collapsing you would feel. It's the death knell for FF.

I have to say even I am amazed at the sheer incompetence of this governement - one leader asleep in the Dail, idioitic inconsistent and illogical new rules on COVID, a health minister talking gibberish about trampolines (he is surely due a jump to a new party soon) and now a gang of them breaking their own rules blatently. Unbelievable.

What is shocking is that an RTE employee like Sean O Rourke is so cozy with the FF'ers and yet gets to slag off other parties on the national broadcaster, another fine example of the so called impartial national broadcaster in action.

And then Phil Hogan, lets see did he quarantine properly after returning from Belgium. No doubt the arrogant bollix will claim he has diplomatic immunity or something like that.

The most shocking thing was the O'Rourke one for me. The state broadcaster is joined at the hip with FFG and are not objective in their reporting. This proves it. O'Rourke was meant to be an impartial broadcaster on a current affairs show, in reality he was a FFG press officer, having heard his show in the past, this is no surprise.

Fianna Gael, RTÉ and the Indo etc. are part of what is commonly known as the establishment.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:37:01 AM
After the hammering the Shinners got over Bobby Storey's funeral I wonder what the reaction will be....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:41:48 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:37:01 AM
After the hammering the Shinners got over Bobby Storey's funeral I wonder what the reaction will be....
David Cullinane was on RTE radio there a few minutes ago demanding the resignations of those who were at the event in Clifden

He's not wrong about that

But then he should be demanding the resignations of his own party leadership

Is he demanding the resignations of MaryLou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill?

Is he f**k

The sheer brass neck of Cullinane is breathtaking, but then this is the guy who shouted "Up The RA" after the election

McDonald and O'Neill will be cannier than Cullinane and will keep their heads down during this

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on August 21, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:37:01 AM
After the hammering the Shinners got over Bobby Storey's funeral I wonder what the reaction will be....

According to Donal O'Keeffe "it's depressing to see the FF/FG/Green Government follow Sinn Fein's Bobby Storey example...."

Didn't take long to rope them into it some way
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 21, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:37:01 AM
After the hammering the Shinners got over Bobby Storey's funeral I wonder what the reaction will be....

According to Donal O'Keeffe "it's depressing to see the FF/FG/Green Government follow Sinn Fein's Bobby Storey example...."

Didn't take long to rope them into it some way
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules

So anything Sinn Fein say over this is the purest hypocrisy

They gave a two fingers to all those who observed the rules

They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:52:04 AM
Anyone who attends any event should be held accountable. Attending a funeral was bad. Attending a lavish event, to make deals, shake hands and basically thumb noses at the rest of the plebs is an affront to every single person who has made sacrifices and shows the FFG for what they are. Sleeveens of the highest order with no integrity or morals. A real case of f**k you from them
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 21, 2020, 11:53:29 AM
Phil Hogan appears to think he's done nothing wrong as he only attended the event on the "clear understanding" from the organisers and the hotel that they had been assured by the Irish Hotels Federation that the event was in line with guidelines. As if the fecking Irish Hotels Federation is responsible or accountable here ffs!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 01:58:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 21, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:37:01 AM
After the hammering the Shinners got over Bobby Storey's funeral I wonder what the reaction will be....

According to Donal O'Keeffe "it's depressing to see the FF/FG/Green Government follow Sinn Fein's Bobby Storey example...."

Didn't take long to rope them into it some way
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules

So anything Sinn Fein say over this is the purest hypocrisy

They gave a two fingers to all those who observed the rules

They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden

Indoor vrs Outdoor, Indoor way way worse.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on August 21, 2020, 02:05:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 21, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:37:01 AM
After the hammering the Shinners got over Bobby Storey's funeral I wonder what the reaction will be....

According to Donal O'Keeffe "it's depressing to see the FF/FG/Green Government follow Sinn Fein's Bobby Storey example...."

Didn't take long to rope them into it some way
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules

So anything Sinn Fein say over this is the purest hypocrisy

They gave a two fingers to all those who observed the rules

They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden

Now that Cullinane has waded in with digs I would agree but had they kept their mouth shut there is no reason at all to bring them into it.  If the sitting government of the day are following the example of the opposition party they don't think are capable to run the country in the first place, even as part of a coalition, then what does that say about the government? 

The apologies today are embarrassing. If you turn up to an event in good faith and see it isn't following the guidelines, then you leave.  Anything other than that is just guff because you were caught rotten
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:08:17 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 01:58:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 21, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 21, 2020, 10:37:01 AM
After the hammering the Shinners got over Bobby Storey's funeral I wonder what the reaction will be....

According to Donal O'Keeffe "it's depressing to see the FF/FG/Green Government follow Sinn Fein's Bobby Storey example...."

Didn't take long to rope them into it some way
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules

So anything Sinn Fein say over this is the purest hypocrisy

They gave a two fingers to all those who observed the rules

They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden

Indoor vrs Outdoor, Indoor way way worse.
Sorry, that's not the way it works

Dominic Cummings was outdoors

You either care about the rules or you don't

And Sinn Fein didn't, neither did the golf jolliers

The problem with a lot of SF supporters online is that they immediately retreat into "protect the party" mode and dispense with critical thinking when something like this comes along

Ironically it's actually making FF look less bad in comparison because their guy resigned straight off the bat -  and making FF look less bad by comparison is some feat
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on August 21, 2020, 03:01:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

There's plenty of hypocrisy to go around for everyone to take their fare share if it..

The Shinners were bang out of order over the Storey funeral and there is no justifying their actions even if it was the death of one of the party members, but holy lord, a golf dinner indoors with 100 odd people at in all from the great and good of the ruling elites in law, banking and politics.
Wrong on so many levels.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always

So let me get this straight:

1. News today is dominated with the revelation that a succession of FFGers were caught out breaching the lockdown rules they had literally only just implemented
2. Your immediate reaction is to post a series of repeated, lengthy attacks on SF
3. I attempt to remind you about today's news story and simply remind you that it centres around FFG and their attendance at the golf event.
4. You reply with another lengthy attack of SF and accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection"??

I tip my hat to you sir. That takes some brass balls.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 03:27:10 PM
Shinners deserve many a kicking but today is not the day for it.

The great and the bad of FF FG Court Judge and others were so wrong on so many fronts over this disgraceful episode.
Arrogant ..  we make the rules but they dont apply to us
Insulting to all those who lost loved ones and couldn't have proper Irish funerals, Weddings, Communions Confurnations kids Birthday parties all cancelled or limited to a few family members.
100 people can't attend an open air sport fixture, peopke in 3 Counties can't even leave their Counties....
But the privileged ones can do what the fkn well like.
Apparently organised by Donie Cassidy who must be around 80 yet over 70s are told to stay at home.
Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and a right 2 fingers to all of us who have had our lives put on hold since mid March as well as all who got the ailment or who died from it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always

So let me get this straight:

1. News today is dominated with the revelation that a succession of FFGers were caught out breaching the lockdown rules they had literally only just implemented
2. Your immediate reaction is to post a series of repeated, lengthy attacks on SF
3. I attempt to remind you about today's news story and simply remind you that it centres around FFG and their attendance at the golf event.
4. You reply with another lengthy attack of SF and accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection"??

I tip my hat to you sir. That takes some brass balls.

Don't be worried by the Fianna Gael bot. Probably sent out by hq to deflect.

I wonder how long this government will last?

One more and it could be curtains.  I wonder who'll be appointed to the minister's role now - any disgruntled TDs that didn't get a gig last time out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 03:47:43 PM
McConologue from Donegal is the favourite.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always

So let me get this straight:

1. News today is dominated with the revelation that a succession of FFGers were caught out breaching the lockdown rules they had literally only just implemented
2. Your immediate reaction is to post a series of repeated, lengthy attacks on SF
3. I attempt to remind you about today's news story and simply remind you that it centres around FFG and their attendance at the golf event.
4. You reply with another lengthy attack of SF and accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection"??

I tip my hat to you sir. That takes some brass balls.

It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example




Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 03:55:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 03:47:43 PM
McConologue from Donegal is the favourite.

Fianna Gael couldn't get a minister from the coastal seaboard the first time but now it's the complete opposite.

#muppets

Mickey Martin needs to step down.  Clearly not up to the job.

It's been a complete farce from day 1.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always

So let me get this straight:

1. News today is dominated with the revelation that a succession of FFGers were caught out breaching the lockdown rules they had literally only just implemented
2. Your immediate reaction is to post a series of repeated, lengthy attacks on SF
3. I attempt to remind you about today's news story and simply remind you that it centres around FFG and their attendance at the golf event.
4. You reply with another lengthy attack of SF and accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection"??

I tip my hat to you sir. That takes some brass balls.

Don't be worried by the Fianna Gael bot. Probably sent out by hq to deflect.

I wonder how long this government will last?

One more and it could be curtains.  I wonder who'll be appointed to the minister's role now - any disgruntled TDs that didn't get a gig last time out.
"The Fianna Gael bot"

Deary me

Never voted for a Fianna Fail or Fine Gael candidate in me life, never will

I voted number one for Sinn Fein at two successive general elections - 2011 and 2016 (Eoin O'Broin in Dublin Mid-West)

No longer, because it's become increasingly clear the party is full of shit and cares only about party (I gave O'Broin and Mark Ward a 5 and 6 in 2020 if you must know)

Gave the two Fine Gael candidates the bottom two preferences on my ballot and left the two Fianna Fail candidates blank

Again, like another poster here, you need to read what Hannah Arendt wrote - one of the biggest tricks of the totalitarian elites of the 1920s and 1930s was to turn statements of fact into questions of motive

Shinners hate facts, so play the victim card at every opportunity, even where they are blatantly in the wrong



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 03:27:10 PM
Shinners deserve many a kicking but today is not the day for it.

The great and the bad of FF FG Court Judge and others were so wrong on so many fronts over this disgraceful episode.
Arrogant ..  we make the rules but they dont apply to us
Insulting to all those who lost loved ones and couldn't have proper Irish funerals, Weddings, Communions Confurnations kids Birthday parties all cancelled or limited to a few family members.
100 people can't attend an open air sport fixture, peopke in 3 Counties can't even leave their Counties....
But the privileged ones can do what the fkn well like.
Apparently organised by Donie Cassidy who must be around 80 yet over 70s are told to stay at home.
Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and a right 2 fingers to all of us who have had our lives put on hold since mid March as well as all who got the ailment or who died from it.
The Shinners did the same thing as the other gobshites you mention, so can have no complaint for being lumped in with them - it's the same issue and the same stor(e)y
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 04:07:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always

So let me get this straight:

1. News today is dominated with the revelation that a succession of FFGers were caught out breaching the lockdown rules they had literally only just implemented
2. Your immediate reaction is to post a series of repeated, lengthy attacks on SF
3. I attempt to remind you about today's news story and simply remind you that it centres around FFG and their attendance at the golf event.
4. You reply with another lengthy attack of SF and accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection"??

I tip my hat to you sir. That takes some brass balls.

Don't be worried by the Fianna Gael bot. Probably sent out by hq to deflect.

I wonder how long this government will last?

One more and it could be curtains.  I wonder who'll be appointed to the minister's role now - any disgruntled TDs that didn't get a gig last time out.
"The Fianna Gael bot"

Deary me

Never voted for a Fianna Fail or Fine Gael candidate in me life, never will

I voted number one for Sinn Fein at two successive general elections - 2011 and 2016 (Eoin O'Broin in Dublin Mid-West)

No longer, because it's become increasingly clear the party is full of shit and cares only about party (I gave O'Broin and Mark Ward a 5 and 6 in 2020 if you must know)

Gave the two Fine Gael candidates the bottom two preferences on my ballot and left the two Fianna Fail candidates blank

Again, like another poster here, you need to read what Hannah Arendt wrote - one of the biggest tricks of the totalitarian elites of the 1920s and 1930s was to turn statements of fact into questions of motive

Shinners hate facts, so play the victim card at every opportunity, even where they are blatantly in the wrong

Me thinks you doth protest too much

#fiannagael bot
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Dire Ear on August 21, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Sid's sad
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:19:50 PM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 04:07:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always

So let me get this straight:

1. News today is dominated with the revelation that a succession of FFGers were caught out breaching the lockdown rules they had literally only just implemented
2. Your immediate reaction is to post a series of repeated, lengthy attacks on SF
3. I attempt to remind you about today's news story and simply remind you that it centres around FFG and their attendance at the golf event.
4. You reply with another lengthy attack of SF and accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection"??

I tip my hat to you sir. That takes some brass balls.

Don't be worried by the Fianna Gael bot. Probably sent out by hq to deflect.

I wonder how long this government will last?

One more and it could be curtains.  I wonder who'll be appointed to the minister's role now - any disgruntled TDs that didn't get a gig last time out.
"The Fianna Gael bot"

Deary me

Never voted for a Fianna Fail or Fine Gael candidate in me life, never will

I voted number one for Sinn Fein at two successive general elections - 2011 and 2016 (Eoin O'Broin in Dublin Mid-West)

No longer, because it's become increasingly clear the party is full of shit and cares only about party (I gave O'Broin and Mark Ward a 5 and 6 in 2020 if you must know)

Gave the two Fine Gael candidates the bottom two preferences on my ballot and left the two Fianna Fail candidates blank

Again, like another poster here, you need to read what Hannah Arendt wrote - one of the biggest tricks of the totalitarian elites of the 1920s and 1930s was to turn statements of fact into questions of motive

Shinners hate facts, so play the victim card at every opportunity, even where they are blatantly in the wrong

Me thinks you doth protest too much

#fiannagael bot

As I suspected, you have zero argument

Sinn Fein have obviously decided the best strategy for them is to flash a two fingers sign at the families of the dead, who had to make heartbreaking sacrifices to stay within the rules

Not much change from their history there, you'd have to say
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:27:46 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on August 21, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Sid's sad
You might think I'm sad but what's a lot sadder is politicians (FF, FG, SF) and online party operatives (only SF here as far as I can see) giving a two fingers to the families of the dead, and everybody else who has observed the rules

And all for a bank robber







Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example

Reading the above reaction to today's news from Sid - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Golf event that's dominating today's news was attending by SF figures.

You know, I actually pointed out to Sid that the event was in actual fact attended by a series of FFG figures (and not by any SF figures). His response was to accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection".

Sid's some craic.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 21, 2020, 04:33:16 PM
It's amazing how people are focusing on Bobby Storey's funeral during this.

Shortly before, after or around Storey's funeral and the fallout. The FG Minister for Justice and a whole host of other public representatives, members of the Gardai all breached the corresponding guidelines at the the funeral of the Garda down in Mayo and there was barely a dicky bird about in the 26 press.

Free Staters would sicken you with their sanctimony.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example

Reading the above reaction to today's news from Sid - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Golf event that's dominating today's news was attending by SF figures.

You know, I actually pointed out to Sid that the event was in actual fact attended by a series of FFG figures (and not by any SF figures). His response was to accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection".

Sid's some craic.

Sinn Fein leadership are guilty of the exact same thing

You think it's an issue when others do it

But you couldn't care less when Sinn Fein do it

Which just shows your supposed concern over what happened in Clifden is completely false, you don't actually care about what happened, you only care about who was involved so you can score political points

Whereas I demand the same standards from people across parties as regards obeying the rules

I don't hold double standards on this

You do

That's classic Trumpism
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 06:58:15 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:19:50 PM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 04:07:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:56:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Sinn Fein are worse as it was their leadership who broke the rules
Dara Calleary is the FF deputy leader.

Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
They are completely fair game to be brought up in relation to what happened in Clifden
By the same token, wouldn't you suggest that those FFGers like Neale Richmond who were all over twitter like a rash after the Storey funeral, but who are being silent as mice today, are fair game? I see the only tweet written by Neale since this story has broken, is about how nice a walk it is around Lough Hyne in Co. Cork  ::)
Mary Lou McDonald is the Sinn Fein leader

Michelle O'Neill is the NI leader of Sinn Fein

Have a go at whoever you want, there's hypocrisy within FG for sure, but SF are really deep into the rabbit hole of hypocrisy here and it's not a conspiracy or an "anti-Sinn Fein media" thing, it's more than fair game to bring it up

Sid, you seem more annoyed at SF today than at the government which flaunted the rules that it had quite literally only just set. I'm sorry to break it to you, but SF ain't the story today.

SF are by far the biggest hypocrites of all in this

Their leaders brazenly flouted the rules

Yet SF people don't care, while simultaneously calling on others to resign on national media, RTE Radio 1

They can call on others to resign when they call on their own party leaders to resign

They can talk when they cut out the one rule for SF, another rule for everybody else nonsense

Fair?

Why should there be one rule for SF, and another rule for everybody else?

Answer that

I thank you for proving my point so speedily and emphatically. Once again, the story today isn't SF. I know you wish it was. But it's just not.
Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection - it's quite instructive to see which political figures Sinn Fein people model their responses on

One rule for SF, another rule for others

And a deliberate two fingers to the families of the dead who adhered to the rules -  just like the two fingers those in Clifden gave

At least Calleary (FF) and Buttimer (FG) had a small modicum of decency and resigned

Which Sinn Fein would never allow to happen - because with Sinn Fein, it's party first - always

So let me get this straight:

1. News today is dominated with the revelation that a succession of FFGers were caught out breaching the lockdown rules they had literally only just implemented
2. Your immediate reaction is to post a series of repeated, lengthy attacks on SF
3. I attempt to remind you about today's news story and simply remind you that it centres around FFG and their attendance at the golf event.
4. You reply with another lengthy attack of SF and accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection"??

I tip my hat to you sir. That takes some brass balls.

Don't be worried by the Fianna Gael bot. Probably sent out by hq to deflect.

I wonder how long this government will last?

One more and it could be curtains.  I wonder who'll be appointed to the minister's role now - any disgruntled TDs that didn't get a gig last time out.
"The Fianna Gael bot"

Deary me

Never voted for a Fianna Fail or Fine Gael candidate in me life, never will

I voted number one for Sinn Fein at two successive general elections - 2011 and 2016 (Eoin O'Broin in Dublin Mid-West)

No longer, because it's become increasingly clear the party is full of shit and cares only about party (I gave O'Broin and Mark Ward a 5 and 6 in 2020 if you must know)

Gave the two Fine Gael candidates the bottom two preferences on my ballot and left the two Fianna Fail candidates blank

Again, like another poster here, you need to read what Hannah Arendt wrote - one of the biggest tricks of the totalitarian elites of the 1920s and 1930s was to turn statements of fact into questions of motive

Shinners hate facts, so play the victim card at every opportunity, even where they are blatantly in the wrong

Me thinks you doth protest too much

#fiannagael bot

As I suspected, you have zero argument

Sinn Fein have obviously decided the best strategy for them is to flash a two fingers sign at the families of the dead, who had to make heartbreaking sacrifices to stay within the rules

Not much change from their history there, you'd have to say

The thing is there was over 80 of them there...O'Rourke the ex-RTÉ muppet, Hogan, a high ranking judge and the two who have been named.

A nice wee cosy cartel - the old boys club playing golf together. A real cabal of the establishment.

F*#k the establishment.

The key question is, who else was there? Are the other 70+ named.  It's be interesting to see who else is in the cabal.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 21, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example

Reading the above reaction to today's news from Sid - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Golf event that's dominating today's news was attending by SF figures.

You know, I actually pointed out to Sid that the event was in actual fact attended by a series of FFG figures (and not by any SF figures). His response was to accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection".

Sid's some craic.

Sinn Fein leadership are guilty of the exact same thing

You think it's an issue when others do it

But you couldn't care less when Sinn Fein do it

Which just shows your supposed concern over what happened in Clifden is completely false, you don't actually care about what happened, you only care about who was involved so you can score political points

Whereas I demand the same standards from people across parties as regards obeying the rules

I don't hold double standards on this

You do

That's classic Trumpism

Well said
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Chief on August 21, 2020, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 21, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example

Reading the above reaction to today's news from Sid - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Golf event that's dominating today's news was attending by SF figures.

You know, I actually pointed out to Sid that the event was in actual fact attended by a series of FFG figures (and not by any SF figures). His response was to accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection".

Sid's some craic.

Sinn Fein leadership are guilty of the exact same thing

You think it's an issue when others do it

But you couldn't care less when Sinn Fein do it

Which just shows your supposed concern over what happened in Clifden is completely false, you don't actually care about what happened, you only care about who was involved so you can score political points

Whereas I demand the same standards from people across parties as regards obeying the rules

I don't hold double standards on this

You do

That's classic Trumpism

Well said

Both were wrong - no question.

But in terms of the spectrum - bad choices at a funeral seem more understandable than bad choices at a golf event.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 08:11:36 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 21, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example

Reading the above reaction to today's news from Sid - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Golf event that's dominating today's news was attending by SF figures.

You know, I actually pointed out to Sid that the event was in actual fact attended by a series of FFG figures (and not by any SF figures). His response was to accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection".

Sid's some craic.

Sinn Fein leadership are guilty of the exact same thing

You think it's an issue when others do it

But you couldn't care less when Sinn Fein do it

Which just shows your supposed concern over what happened in Clifden is completely false, you don't actually care about what happened, you only care about who was involved so you can score political points

Whereas I demand the same standards from people across parties as regards obeying the rules

I don't hold double standards on this

You do

That's classic Trumpism

Well said

"You're only interested in scoring political points....its Trump style deflection".

This from a man who has spent his day desperately trying to convince the world that "Golfgate" is a SF scandal and not a FFG one!

An absolutely outstanding example of having zero self-awareness and of how there are some grown adults around that still just don't understand the concept of irony! Bravo, Sid! Bravo!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 08:11:36 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 21, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example

Reading the above reaction to today's news from Sid - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Golf event that's dominating today's news was attending by SF figures.

You know, I actually pointed out to Sid that the event was in actual fact attended by a series of FFG figures (and not by any SF figures). His response was to accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection".

Sid's some craic.

Sinn Fein leadership are guilty of the exact same thing

You think it's an issue when others do it

But you couldn't care less when Sinn Fein do it

Which just shows your supposed concern over what happened in Clifden is completely false, you don't actually care about what happened, you only care about who was involved so you can score political points

Whereas I demand the same standards from people across parties as regards obeying the rules

I don't hold double standards on this

You do

That's classic Trumpism

Well said

"You're only interested in scoring political points....its Trump style deflection".

This from a man who has spent his day desperately trying to convince the world that "Golfgate" is a SF scandal and not a FFG one!

An absolutely outstanding example of having zero self-awareness and of how there are some grown adults around that still just don't understand the concept of irony! Bravo, Sid! Bravo!

You still don't get it

You and Sinn Fein hold double standards - that what is unacceptable for others should be acceptable for Sinn Fein

And you're somehow deeply offended by me pointing out the breathtaking ludicrousness, shamelessness and entitlement of this position

You and Sinn Fein do not care about the rules on movement

You cannot hold the above position and care about the rules on movement

You only care about weaponising them for political gain

What happened in Clifden, what Dominic Cummings did and what Sinn Fein did with the Bobby Storey funeral are all the same thing - flagrant breaches of the rules

You cannot object to one without objecting to the others

Some of us actually take the rules seriously - you don't

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 21, 2020, 09:37:20 PM
Seen a lot of well known SF members in Derry City somehow turn it around on SDLP today on twitter.Pack of wains whole lot of them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 09:46:11 PM
Sorry Sid, but walking outdoors in a funeral procession is not the same as 80 people indoors at a function. If you knew anything at all about this you would know that but you don't, just another empty vessel talking shite.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: hardstation on August 21, 2020, 09:16:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 03:27:10 PM
Shinners deserve many a kicking but today is not the day for it.

The great and the bad of FF FG Court Judge and others were so wrong on so many fronts over this disgraceful episode.
Arrogant ..  we make the rules but they dont apply to us
Insulting to all those who lost loved ones and couldn't have proper Irish funerals, Weddings, Communions Confurnations kids Birthday parties all cancelled or limited to a few family members.
100 people can't attend an open air sport fixture, peopke in 3 Counties can't even leave their Counties....
But the privileged ones can do what the fkn well like.
Apparently organised by Donie Cassidy who must be around 80 yet over 70s are told to stay at home.
Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and a right 2 fingers to all of us who have had our lives put on hold since mid March as well as all who got the ailment or who died from it.
The Shinners did the same thing as the other gobshites you mention, so can have no complaint for being lumped in with them - it's the same issue and the same stor(e)y
I wonder have the Whataboutery police been disbanded? It wouldn't be a bad thing.

Is there such a thing as an anti-Shinnerbot? Someone who finds a way to attack them no matter which party has fcuked up.
Whataboutery is an attempt to completely deflect away from your own bad behaviour by talking about that of others

It is an attempt to protect yourself by deflection

But nobody's defending or protecting those who behaved so atrociously in Clifden - there is no defence

So there's no whataboutery

The whataboutery here is, as usual from the Sinn Fein supporters, who refuse to acknowledge that their leadership is guilty of the same thing they are in uproar over when others do it

The concept of what is happening here is quite simple - if you yourself are guilty of the same thing you are crying foul over, you yourself are fair game for being exposed

The SF defences here are reminiscent of the Tory defences of Dominic Cummings - "it was outdoor", "look over there", "it's different"

But it isn't different - it's the same

Calleary and Buttimer have resigned, Hogan and Woulfe should resign, FF and FG are rightly getting it in the neck

But how can you hold a government to account when you are as bad, and actually worse because with with SF there's zero accountability at all, at least with FF and FG two of those involved have resigned - they have paid a price for their disgraceful behaviour

And I haven't seen armies of FF and FG bots and trolls defending the disgraceful behaviour of those involved like you get with SF - maybe that's because whatever you think of FF and FG, they aren't cults and the majority of their supporters actually recognise that what happened was disgraceful

Like, what's the difference between Micheal Martin's position now and that of Neil Lennon when that Celtic player went rogue and went off to Spain? I didn't see Lennon getting it in the neck - perhaps that's because Lennon didn't give the go ahead for that player to travel and the player did it entirely off his own bat - neither did Martin give the go ahead for Calleary to attend that golf society jolly

This government has been a shambles so far but I have some sympathy for Martin even though I despise FF - he is a decent man who is being badly let down by his party, which is the most limited in terms of ability I've ever seen in government here, and contains copious amounts of that traditional FF pigheadedness within it






Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 21, 2020, 10:00:24 PM
Quote from: hardstation on August 21, 2020, 09:43:51 PM
And it goes on....a Shinnerbot reacted, let's make it about them.

Shinnerbot?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 10:03:43 PM
I see Paudge Connolly ex TD and now a Monaghan Councillor was one of the 80.
Allegations he came home from a golf outing in Spain a few days before heading for Clifden so no 14 day quarantine.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 10:06:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 08:11:36 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 21, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 04:39:57 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
It's blindingly obvious you don't give two hoots about the rules, and neither does Sinn Fein

The way Shinnerbots defend themselves is by going full Trump - refusing to answer simple questions, claiming one rule for the them, another rule entirely for everybody else

The above is a classic example

Reading the above reaction to today's news from Sid - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Golf event that's dominating today's news was attending by SF figures.

You know, I actually pointed out to Sid that the event was in actual fact attended by a series of FFG figures (and not by any SF figures). His response was to accuse me of "Pathetic, Trump/Boris Johnson-style deflection".

Sid's some craic.

Sinn Fein leadership are guilty of the exact same thing

You think it's an issue when others do it

But you couldn't care less when Sinn Fein do it

Which just shows your supposed concern over what happened in Clifden is completely false, you don't actually care about what happened, you only care about who was involved so you can score political points

Whereas I demand the same standards from people across parties as regards obeying the rules

I don't hold double standards on this

You do

That's classic Trumpism

Well said

"You're only interested in scoring political points....its Trump style deflection".

This from a man who has spent his day desperately trying to convince the world that "Golfgate" is a SF scandal and not a FFG one!

An absolutely outstanding example of having zero self-awareness and of how there are some grown adults around that still just don't understand the concept of irony! Bravo, Sid! Bravo!

You still don't get it

You and Sinn Fein hold double standards - that what is unacceptable for others should be acceptable for Sinn Fein

And you're somehow deeply offended by me pointing out the breathtaking ludicrousness, shamelessness and entitlement of this position

You and Sinn Fein do not care about the rules on movement

You cannot hold the above position and care about the rules on movement

You only care about weaponising them for political gain

What happened in Clifden, what Dominic Cummings did and what Sinn Fein did with the Bobby Storey funeral are all the same thing - flagrant breaches of the rules

You cannot object to one without objecting to the others

Some of us actually take the rules seriously - you don't

On the contrary, Sid. You just don't get it. You have repeatedly accused me of not taking the rules seriously/defending the SF restriction breaches at the funeral; when in reality I believe SFs breaches at the funeral were unnecessary, stupid and irresponsible. Albeit not anywhere near as unnesessary, stupid and irresponsible as attending an indoor function with your golf cronies just two nights after drafting the new rules which attendance at the function breached.

When you take umbridge and someone stating that the 'Golfgate' scandal is a FFG story, and repeatedly try to divert the discussion on to a funeral in Belfast back in June, then your attempts to accuse anyone of whataboutery are not even laughable; they are just bizzare.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:09:07 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 21, 2020, 09:46:11 PM
Sorry Sid, but walking outdoors in a funeral procession is not the same as 80 people indoors at a function. If you knew anything at all about this you would know that but you don't, just another empty vessel talking shite.
Sinn Fein broke the rules as regards how many were allowed in the church

They broke the rules as regards distancing outside, posing for selfies etc.

They opted to have a massive funeral cortege with resulting massive crowds on the road - which they knew full well would happen - they did this as a show of strength, and to hell with social distancing

They could have stopped the massive cortege, and they could have said in no uncertain terms that people should not gather in large numbers which could not be distanced - they did not do this - because they wanted those crowds

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/michelle-o-neill-rejects-claim-she-breached-covid-19-rules-at-bobby-storey-funeral-1.4293455

It is also understood social distancing arrangements were put in place inside the church, with mourners spread three to a pew, but more mourners were in attendance on Tuesday than were permitted under the regulations in force.

On Wednesday evening, the diocese of Down and Connor issued a statement clarifying that at the time of the funeral the rules were that only 10 people were permitted inside the church for the funeral Mass, and that notification of changes to the guidance was not received until after the funeral, on Tuesday evening.



https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/07/03/news/michelle-o-neill-claims-clergy-had-lack-of-understanding-on-funeral-size-guidance-1995248/

It is understood the diocese believed that funeral services on Tuesday should also have been limited to family members.

According to both Stormont's Covid-19 regulations and guidance outlined on Executive websites on Tuesday, friends of deceased people could only attend their funerals if members of their family or household did not attend.

Members of Mr Storey's family did attend on Tuesday.

This guidance remained on the NI Direct website yesterday but by today it has been changed to make no reference to limiting services to family members.

Around 120 people were inside St Agnes' Church for Mr Storey's funeral on Tuesday, including several high profile Sinn Féin members, including Ms O'Neill
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:17:55 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 10:06:28 PM

On the contrary, Sid. You just don't get it. You have repeatedly accused me of not taking the rules seriously/defending the SF restriction breaches at the funeral; when in reality I believe SFs breaches at the funeral were unnecessary, stupid and irresponsible. Albeit not anywhere near as unnesessary, stupid and irresponsible as attending an indoor function with your golf cronies just two nights after drafting the new rules which attendance at the function breached.

When you take umbridge and someone stating that the 'Golfgate' scandal is a FFG story, and repeatedly try to divert the discussion on to a funeral in Belfast back in June, then your attempts to accuse anyone of whataboutery are not even laughable; they are just bizzare.
And there it is

You finally admit that SF broke the rules

So where's the accountability?

This is exactly the point about Clifden - accountability and resignations were necessary

I've voted no.1 for SF twice in general elections and always give my top votes to left candidates - FF and FG have always, always been at the very bottom of my list in terms of preferences since I first had a vote in 2002 - so I cannot be accused of shilling for either party, because I've very little time for either party
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 10:30:35 PM
Quote from: Peter LaFleur on August 21, 2020, 10:25:42 PM
Voting left does not hide your west brit views Sid.Keep it up.We need a laugh.
Thanks for that well thought out argument

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Zazz on August 21, 2020, 10:38:30 PM
Sinn Fein = Irelands Trumpists
(https://i.ibb.co/ypG3s52/37196860640-108a275bb1-z.jpg)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 10:45:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 10:03:43 PM
I see Paudge Connolly ex TD and now a Monaghan Councillor was one of the 80.
Allegations he came home from a golf outing in Spain a few days before heading for Clifden so no 14 day quarantine.

Hopefully the full list will come out soon.

I'm sure the Indo will be all over it: I'll wait for their pullout on it on Sunday!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Zazz on August 21, 2020, 10:57:29 PM
Quote from: hardstation on August 21, 2020, 10:43:58 PM
Quote from: Zazz on August 21, 2020, 10:38:30 PM
Sinn Fein = Irelands Trumpists
(https://i.ibb.co/ypG3s52/37196860640-108a275bb1-z.jpg)

Have you any other interests? You seemed to be very interested in the gold mining in Greencastle about 3 years ago. How's that going?

You have just done the second on that list.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 11:03:54 PM
Quite the lengthy series of posts about a funeral in Belfast back in June in reaction to yesterdays "golfgate" scandal, Sid.

And yet you continue to accuse anyone who tries to actually talk about 'Golfgate' of engaging in whataboutery.

Staggering.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 11:03:54 PM
Quite the lengthy series of posts about a funeral in Belfast back in June in reaction to yesterdays "golfgate" scandal, Sid.

And yet you continue to accuse anyone who tries to actually talk about 'Golfgate' of engaging in whataboutery.

Staggering.

The cabal and establishment of Fianna Gael are at it again.

A few years back, we had the infamous Galway tents...these days it's the Galway golf club.

Nothing has changed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 11:23:19 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 11:03:54 PM
Quite the lengthy series of posts about a funeral in Belfast back in June in reaction to yesterdays "golfgate" scandal, Sid.

And yet you continue to accuse anyone who tries to actually talk about 'Golfgate' of engaging in whataboutery.

Staggering.
If you find a perfectly legitimate and accurate summation of Sinn Fein's total hypocrisy on this issue to be "staggering", it's clear you badly need to get out of your SF bubble

No wonder Sinn Feiners despise journalism as a concept, and journalists - SF hate scrutiny and don't believe it should apply to them

These would be the same journalists who exposed what happened with the golf jolly





Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 11:34:22 PM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 11:03:54 PM
Quite the lengthy series of posts about a funeral in Belfast back in June in reaction to yesterdays "golfgate" scandal, Sid.

And yet you continue to accuse anyone who tries to actually talk about 'Golfgate' of engaging in whataboutery.

Staggering.

The cabal and establishment of Fianna Gael are at it again.

A few years back, we had the infamous Galway tents...these days it's the Galway golf club.

Nothing has changed.
Sinn Fein are as bad and worse than anybody, with less accountability

Sinn Fein have been the "establishment" for 13 years now, so you better get used to it

In terms of a "cabal", the word applies to Sinn Fein far more than it does to any other party, given that the central plank of their ideology remains, to this day, an unfailing belief that the Provisional IRA's three decades long campaign of violence and murder, including against civilians, was justified

Sinn Fein may now claim that Enniskillen and Warrington and the Shankill Road bomb and all the rest were wrong, but there will always be a place in the tent for those who committed such atrocities, and no place in Sinn Fein for those who believe the Provisional IRA campaign of violence and murder was wrong

You're doing a splendid job of proving that graphic above to be correct by the way



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 11:59:13 PM
Just take a few weeks off Sid and give us all a break.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 21, 2020, 11:59:41 PM
My God. He's managed to shoehorn the Ra into it!! ;D


[EVERYONE:] "Hey Sid, did you hear the news? A host of FF and FG figures breached the very Covid restriction rules that they themselves set only days earlier, by attending a golf society dinner?

[SID]: "WHAT?!! HOW DARE SINN FÉIN!!

[EVERYONE]: "No it was FF and FG politicians this time."

[SID]: "Stop deflecting!! I want to talk about a funeral two months ago!"

[EVERYONE]: "Yeah we remember that, but this is a whole new story. FG and FF politicians breached their own lockdown rules so its kinda really a story about FF and FG."

[SID]: "Yeah but...but....the Ra!"
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 22, 2020, 12:17:32 AM
Quote from: marty34 on August 21, 2020, 10:45:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 21, 2020, 10:03:43 PM
I see Paudge Connolly ex TD and now a Monaghan Councillor was one of the 80.
Allegations he came home from a golf outing in Spain a few days before heading for Clifden so no 14 day quarantine.

Hopefully the full list will come out soon.

I'm sure the Indo will be all over it: I'll wait for their pullout on it on Sunday!!
Seamus Wolfe High Court Judge
Pat McCartan Judge and one time Stickie/Workers Party etc
Áine (ex FF Junior Minister) Brady, her husband Gerry once a FF TD and Councillor and the original Bradys Ham. Both residents of locked down Kildare.
Sean O'Rourke ex RTÉ journalist.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 22, 2020, 08:18:18 AM
Ignoring the whole Covid breaches, the event very much highlights the inherent corruption that is in place between the Irish establishment and the elite.

Politicians from the establishment parties
Judges
RTE broadcasters
Banking lobbyists
etc
etc

All schmoozing about greasing each others wheels, it would make you sick.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rois on August 22, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
I was a spectator at the Ryder Cup, Gleneagles, 2014.
Martin McGuinness walked past me inside the ropes down the fairway towards the first green on the first day of competition, following Rory McIlroy's entourage. You couldn't buy that access, you'd have had to be invited.

So don't be naive, it is not just the establishment parties at that sort of craic.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 22, 2020, 09:58:20 AM
Jaysus

Bubbles are terrible thing in politics

https://twitter.com/jfjohnston/status/1297078087226740737

QuoteMandy Johnston
@jfjohnston
CEO
@offshoreireland
Irish Offshore Operators' Association. Former Government Press Secretary & Political Advisor. I have some views they are personal.

I'm going to say what everyone else is thinking. Phil Hogan should get a pass. He was as wrong as everyone else, he should say sorry, but the reality is that his position is too important for Ireland in a no deal Brexit landscape.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Denn Forever on August 22, 2020, 11:18:51 AM
Can't have an election or we'd have to share power with SF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 22, 2020, 11:58:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 22, 2020, 09:58:20 AM
Jaysus

Bubbles are terrible thing in politics

https://twitter.com/jfjohnston/status/1297078087226740737

QuoteMandy Johnston
@jfjohnston
CEO
@offshoreireland
Irish Offshore Operators' Association. Former Government Press Secretary & Political Advisor. I have some views they are personal.

I'm going to say what everyone else is thinking. Phil Hogan should get a pass. He was as wrong as everyone else, he should say sorry, but the reality is that his position is too important for Ireland in a no deal Brexit landscape.

Looks like tweet has been deleted...
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 22, 2020, 12:47:27 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on August 22, 2020, 11:18:51 AM
Can't have an election or we'd have to share power with SF.

Bring it on.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 22, 2020, 05:39:13 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-councillor-apologises-over-lanzarote-holiday-39470068.html

Sinn Féin and Social Democrats???
Nah can't be true ....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 01:46:29 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.
I'd guess it was because the funeral of Garda Horkan observed social distancing protocols whereas the Storey funeral had 120 people in the church when there was supposed to be 10

Normally the Taoiseach and the President would be present at the funeral of a Garda who was murdered but they were not on this occasion, only the Minister for Justice was

Also I would say the fact that Horkan was a Garda murdered while on duty - while Storey was a bank robber - would probably have something to do with the respective reactions

The very fact that you using whataboutery as regards the Horkan funeral is an admission that the Storey one broke the rules

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 02:12:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 01:46:29 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.
I'd guess it was because the funeral of Garda Horkan observed social distancing protocols whereas the Storey funeral had 120 people in the church when there was supposed to be 10

Normally the Taoiseach and the President would be present at the funeral of a Garda who was murdered but they were not on this occasion, only the Minister for Justice was

Also I would say the fact that Horkan was a Garda murdered while on duty - while Storey was a bank robber - would probably have something to do with the respective reactions

The very fact that you using whataboutery as regards the Horkan funeral is an admission that the Storey one broke the rules

You'd guess wrong.

The funeral of the Garda was covered live on TV and it was pretty easy to discern from the pictures that the numbers in the church clearly breached the guidelines.

Here's a video of it, you can do a headcount if you want going in.

https://www.facebook.com/rtenews/videos/funeral-of-detective-garda-colm-horkan/281698266273810/

25 was the limit, if you can count there are a lot more of 25 entering the church there.

So, WRONG and there is actually completely unequivocal and irrefutable evidence there that there were breaches in the church at that funeral.

Yet not a dickie bird about it. If you are going to come on here and make false equivalency then you should pay attention to proof that contradicts your claims and a lack of proof that fails to support your other double standards.

This funeral was attended by numerous members of the Gardai Siochana and the Minister for Justice, those charged with upholding this.

There's a huge difference between a funeral service and a golf society piss up.

It's an absolutely bizarre path you are pursuing here.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 02:17:14 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/d62T8GT/Capture.png)

If you want to do a headcount, then be my guest Sid - and that's only a portion of the church.

It's conclusive proof that the funeral did not adhere to guidelines on funeral services.

I await your retraction.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 23, 2020, 02:33:48 PM
Dear Angelo,
Seeing as we're on a whataboutery exercise....
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question....
Do you condemn it condone the murder of Tom Oliver?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 02:55:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 23, 2020, 02:33:48 PM
Dear Angelo,
Seeing as we're on a whataboutery exercise....
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question....
Do you condemn it condone the murder of Tom Oliver?

Absolutely.

I also condemn the 100 or so the FF/IRA FG/IRA disappeared in the War of Independence.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/the-100-disappearances-by-the-ira-during-the-irish-revolution-1.4191565

Yesterday was also the 98th anniversary of FF/IRA murdering the leader of FG/IRA.

You'll notice Mrs Lindsay doesn't quite grab the same attention as Jean McConville does from the Free State establishment.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
So we now know Sinn Fein supporters don't actually care about breaking the rules, given they believe it's fine for the Sinn Fein leadership to do so

Given that, why aren't they calling for Dara Calleary and Jerry Buttimer to be reinstated?

Double standards

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
So we now know Sinn Fein supporters don't actually care about breaking the rules, given they believe it's fine for the Sinn Fein leadership to do so

Given that, why aren't they calling for Dara Calleary and Jerry Buttimer to be reinstated?

Double standards

The only double standards on display here are from you.

You have ignored concrete proof that contradicts your assertion that guidelines were adhered to at the Garda funeral in Mayo.

You have cited speculation as confirmation that guidelines were ignored at Bobby Storey's funeral.

All you have done is show that the facts are irrelevant when it comes to you exercising your biased agenda.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
So we now know Sinn Fein supporters don't actually care about breaking the rules, given they believe it's fine for the Sinn Fein leadership to do so

Given that, why aren't they calling for Dara Calleary and Jerry Buttimer to be reinstated?

Double standards

The only double standards on display here are from you.

You have ignored concrete proof that contradicts your assertion that guidelines were adhered to at the Garda funeral in Mayo.

You have cited speculation as confirmation that guidelines were ignored at Bobby Storey's funeral.

All you have done is show that the facts are irrelevant when it comes to you exercising your biased agenda.

Eh, yeah, whatever

120 people attended Storey's funeral when there were supposed to be 10

Sinn Fein broke the rules

If you're calling for Calleary, Buttimer, Hogan, Woulfe and the rest to resign, you can't tenably defend Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill not resigning - they broke the rules

If you aren't calling for McDonald and O'Neill to resign - and you're not - you should be calling for Calleary and Buttimer to be reinstated, and defending Hogan and Woulfe

SF's position is laughable, at least FF and FG's is consistent
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:52:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
So we now know Sinn Fein supporters don't actually care about breaking the rules, given they believe it's fine for the Sinn Fein leadership to do so

Given that, why aren't they calling for Dara Calleary and Jerry Buttimer to be reinstated?

Double standards

The only double standards on display here are from you.

You have ignored concrete proof that contradicts your assertion that guidelines were adhered to at the Garda funeral in Mayo.

You have cited speculation as confirmation that guidelines were ignored at Bobby Storey's funeral.

All you have done is show that the facts are irrelevant when it comes to you exercising your biased agenda.

Eh, yeah, whatever

120 people attended Storey's funeral when there were supposed to be 10

Sinn Fein broke the rules

If you're calling for Calleary, Buttimer, Hogan, Woulfe and the rest to resign, you can't tenably defend Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill not resigning - they broke the rules

If you aren't calling for McDonald and O'Neill to resign - and you're not - you should be calling for Calleary and Buttimer to be reinstated, and defending Hogan and Woulfe

SF's position is laughable, at least FF and FG's is consistent

"Whatever"

Good point, well argued.

You're still dealing in supposition as regards Bobby Storey's funeral and you were trying to tell us the Garda funeral was compliant with guidelines when there is concrete proof, it wasn't.

The Garda funeral and Bobby Storey's funeral are comparable. There was outcry about the Minister for Justice and sizable Garda presence at the Garda funeral, there was huge outcry in the Free State about a funeral in the O6 on the basis of supposition.

And here you are, decrying Bobby Storey's funeral, ignoring the Garda's funeral in the wake of the Free State establishment blatantly ignoring their own guidelines at a golfing piss up.

Maybe you should step back and look at how absurd, whatever point it is that you are making, is.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 05:05:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:52:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
So we now know Sinn Fein supporters don't actually care about breaking the rules, given they believe it's fine for the Sinn Fein leadership to do so

Given that, why aren't they calling for Dara Calleary and Jerry Buttimer to be reinstated?

Double standards

The only double standards on display here are from you.

You have ignored concrete proof that contradicts your assertion that guidelines were adhered to at the Garda funeral in Mayo.

You have cited speculation as confirmation that guidelines were ignored at Bobby Storey's funeral.

All you have done is show that the facts are irrelevant when it comes to you exercising your biased agenda.

Eh, yeah, whatever

120 people attended Storey's funeral when there were supposed to be 10

Sinn Fein broke the rules

If you're calling for Calleary, Buttimer, Hogan, Woulfe and the rest to resign, you can't tenably defend Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill not resigning - they broke the rules

If you aren't calling for McDonald and O'Neill to resign - and you're not - you should be calling for Calleary and Buttimer to be reinstated, and defending Hogan and Woulfe

SF's position is laughable, at least FF and FG's is consistent

"Whatever"

Good point, well argued.

You're still dealing in supposition as regards Bobby Storey's funeral and you were trying to tell us the Garda funeral was compliant with guidelines when there is concrete proof, it wasn't.

The Garda funeral and Bobby Storey's funeral are comparable. There was outcry about the Minister for Justice and sizable Garda presence at the Garda funeral, there was huge outcry in the Free State about a funeral in the O6 on the basis of supposition.

And here you are, decrying Bobby Storey's funeral, ignoring the Garda's funeral in the wake of the Free State establishment blatantly ignoring their own guidelines at a golfing piss up.

Maybe you should step back and look at how absurd, whatever point it is that you are making, is.
You're the person that says Garda Horkan's funeral is a problem

Yet you say the Storey funeral is fine

So, let me get this straight, the Horkan funeral and the golf jolly in Clifden are both offside - but the Storey funeral is grand

One contained Sinn Fein people, the others didn't

Like, the double standards are totally hilarious, you're not even remotely hiding it

One rule for Sinn Fein, another entirely for everybody else

Lolz

How the fook can SF be taken seriously with this sort of nonsense
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 05:05:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:52:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
So we now know Sinn Fein supporters don't actually care about breaking the rules, given they believe it's fine for the Sinn Fein leadership to do so

Given that, why aren't they calling for Dara Calleary and Jerry Buttimer to be reinstated?

Double standards

The only double standards on display here are from you.

You have ignored concrete proof that contradicts your assertion that guidelines were adhered to at the Garda funeral in Mayo.

You have cited speculation as confirmation that guidelines were ignored at Bobby Storey's funeral.

All you have done is show that the facts are irrelevant when it comes to you exercising your biased agenda.

Eh, yeah, whatever

120 people attended Storey's funeral when there were supposed to be 10

Sinn Fein broke the rules

If you're calling for Calleary, Buttimer, Hogan, Woulfe and the rest to resign, you can't tenably defend Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill not resigning - they broke the rules

If you aren't calling for McDonald and O'Neill to resign - and you're not - you should be calling for Calleary and Buttimer to be reinstated, and defending Hogan and Woulfe

SF's position is laughable, at least FF and FG's is consistent

"Whatever"

Good point, well argued.

You're still dealing in supposition as regards Bobby Storey's funeral and you were trying to tell us the Garda funeral was compliant with guidelines when there is concrete proof, it wasn't.

The Garda funeral and Bobby Storey's funeral are comparable. There was outcry about the Minister for Justice and sizable Garda presence at the Garda funeral, there was huge outcry in the Free State about a funeral in the O6 on the basis of supposition.

And here you are, decrying Bobby Storey's funeral, ignoring the Garda's funeral in the wake of the Free State establishment blatantly ignoring their own guidelines at a golfing piss up.

Maybe you should step back and look at how absurd, whatever point it is that you are making, is.
You're the person that says Garda Horkan's funeral is a problem

Yet you say the Storey funeral is fine

So, let me get this straight, the Horkan funeral and the golf jolly in Clifden are both offside - but the Storey funeral is grand

One contained Sinn Fein people, the others didn't

Like, the double standards are totally hilarious, you're not even remotely hiding it

One rule for Sinn Fein, another entirely for everybody else

Lolz

How the fook can SF be taken seriously with this sort of nonsense

Completely incorrect.

I offered up the Garda's funeral as comparable to that of Bobby Storey's. There is more concrete proof of breaches at the funeral of the Garda than there is at Bobby Storey's funeral.

Both incidents happened on a similar timeline, the Bobby Storey funeral got serious traction with the free state media and the SF top brass were hounded to resign by that particular cohort, yet there was no outcry at all with regard to the Garda's funeral - where there was no concrete proof. Bobby Storey was a stalwart of SF and republicanism and would have been a close personal friend of Gerry Adams and Gerry Kelly and would have been well known and associated with Doherty, MON and MLMcD.

Would the likes of Drew Harris or Charlie Flanagan have ever even met the Garda in question? Probably not.

In any case I'm not decrying one and defending the other, viewpoints with regard these funerals and potential breaches should be viewed in a like for like manner. The Bobby Storey funeral was pilloried by the free state media, the Garda's one did not receive one word of condemnation for any potential breaches. I think the only double standard is those who decried SF for the Storey funeral but did not criticise the Gardai or Charlie Flanagan for any breaches at that funeral.

I don't think either are in any comparable to top ranking politicians breaching the newly laid down guidelines they helped introduce to socialise at a golfing piss up half way across the country, some of the coming from places which were under a lockdown. ]

You've got to ask yourself why you are trying to compare something not comparable from months ago with an event that has happened this past week, while trying to defend the Garda's funeral at the same time. It reeks of a biased agenda and all the evidence points toward that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on August 23, 2020, 06:58:12 PM
There is no comparison. In the Garda funeral the leaders made an obvious point of staying in Dublin. In the Belfast funeral SF as a party deliberately chose to send its leaders, again to make a point that SF is more important than preventing disease.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 07:47:29 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 23, 2020, 06:58:12 PM
There is no comparison. In the Garda funeral the leaders made an obvious point of staying in Dublin. In the Belfast funeral SF as a party deliberately chose to send its leaders, again to make a point that SF is more important than preventing disease.

That's absolutely absurd.

The Minister for Justice was there, the head of the Garda Siochana was there, they did not make a point of staying in Dublin. Neither of them knew the deceased on a personal level. There was a gigantic Garda presence there who took over the funeral.

It's a preposterous point you're making.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
So once again, no argument except Trump-style gaslighting as has been the case from you throughout this thread

It's no wonder SF are compared to Trump with behaviour like that

Populists are completely unable to debate, and completely unable to admit when they're wrong

The cult ethic is strong
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:00:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
So once again, no argument except Trump-style gaslighting as has been the case from you throughout this thread

It's no wonder SF are compared to Trump with behaviour like that

Populists are completely unable to debate, and completely unable to admit when they're wrong

The cult ethic is strong

Lad don't waste your time. I figured out recently here in Derry that Twitter and Gaa board is no refection of what folk think. Most are starting to catch on to SF
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:00:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
So once again, no argument except Trump-style gaslighting as has been the case from you throughout this thread

It's no wonder SF are compared to Trump with behaviour like that

Populists are completely unable to debate, and completely unable to admit when they're wrong

The cult ethic is strong

Lad don't waste your time. I figured out recently here in Derry that Twitter and Gaa board is no refection of what folk think. Most are starting to catch on to SF

lol Another who thinks this weeks story is about SF instead of FFG!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:34:23 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:00:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
So once again, no argument except Trump-style gaslighting as has been the case from you throughout this thread

It's no wonder SF are compared to Trump with behaviour like that

Populists are completely unable to debate, and completely unable to admit when they're wrong

The cult ethic is strong

Lad don't waste your time. I figured out recently here in Derry that Twitter and Gaa board is no refection of what folk think. Most are starting to catch on to SF

lol Another who thinks this weeks story is about SF instead of FFG!

I didn't say that and I couldn't give 2 monkies fecks about them. But the hypocrisy of and arrogance SF is astounding, and oh very visible to most.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on August 23, 2020, 10:47:49 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:34:23 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:00:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
So once again, no argument except Trump-style gaslighting as has been the case from you throughout this thread

It's no wonder SF are compared to Trump with behaviour like that

Populists are completely unable to debate, and completely unable to admit when they're wrong

The cult ethic is strong

Lad don't waste your time. I figured out recently here in Derry that Twitter and Gaa board is no refection of what folk think. Most are starting to catch on to SF

lol Another who thinks this weeks story is about SF instead of FFG!

I didn't say that and I couldn't give 2 monkies fecks about them. But the hypocrisy of and arrogance SF is astounding, and oh very visible to most.

Says the former SF supporter who doesn't think women should make decisions about their own bodies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 11:31:44 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 23, 2020, 10:47:49 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:34:23 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:00:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
So once again, no argument except Trump-style gaslighting as has been the case from you throughout this thread

It's no wonder SF are compared to Trump with behaviour like that

Populists are completely unable to debate, and completely unable to admit when they're wrong

The cult ethic is strong

Lad don't waste your time. I figured out recently here in Derry that Twitter and Gaa board is no refection of what folk think. Most are starting to catch on to SF

lol Another who thinks this weeks story is about SF instead of FFG!

I didn't say that and I couldn't give 2 monkies fecks about them. But the hypocrisy of and arrogance SF is astounding, and oh very visible to most.

Says the former SF supporter who doesn't think women should make decisions about their own bodies.

Your sense of relevancy is a wee bit off. Oh and yes once a party changes it's policies most mature people review and make a decision to stick or twist. Your last message really and truly clears up the absolute inability of many SF supporters to click out of the trance. And my view on SF is not solely linked to their refusal to deny a conscience vote to members like every other party. Tá an liosta fada
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 11:38:56 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 23, 2020, 10:47:49 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:34:23 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 23, 2020, 10:00:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 06:41:08 PM
Angelo, since the establishment's big golfing feast, poor Sid has been working himself to the point of exhaustion trying to get people talking about a funeral in Belfast back in June instead.

Don't let him.

It'll drive him up the walls :)
So once again, no argument except Trump-style gaslighting as has been the case from you throughout this thread

It's no wonder SF are compared to Trump with behaviour like that

Populists are completely unable to debate, and completely unable to admit when they're wrong

The cult ethic is strong

Lad don't waste your time. I figured out recently here in Derry that Twitter and Gaa board is no refection of what folk think. Most are starting to catch on to SF

lol Another who thinks this weeks story is about SF instead of FFG!

I didn't say that and I couldn't give 2 monkies fecks about them. But the hypocrisy of and arrogance SF is astounding, and oh very visible to most.

Says the former SF supporter who doesn't think women should make decisions about their own bodies.
I wonder what current SF supporter Angelo thinks about this
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 11:57:24 PM
Sid, I appreciate that you're a blueshirt who has been desperately embarrassed by the behaviour of FG and now your only option it's to try take the heat off them by refusing to talk about the actual story at hand. And Fear Bun na Sceilpe, I appreciate that you have no apparent hobbies or interests beyond insufferably whining about SF, but I feel obliged to offer you both yet another gentle reminder (because I can see you're both struggling to grasp this) but this week's big news story actually isn't about SF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 24, 2020, 12:01:26 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 11:57:24 PM
Sid, I appreciate that you're a blueshirt who has been desperately embarrassed by the behaviour of FG and now your only option it's to try take the heat off them by refusing to talk about the actual story at hand. And Fear Bun na Sceilpe, I appreciate that you have no apparent hobbies or interests beyond insufferably whining about SF, but I feel obliged to offer you both yet another gentle reminder (because I can see you're both struggling to grasp this) but this week's big news story actually isn't about SF.

That's weakest response I've ever seen. Bíodh ciall agat agus tar ar ais i mo chasa ar scor ar bith le rud éigin a dhéanann ciall. In short wise up, you've run out of stuff to say that makes any sense. wtf do you do but defend them
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 12:07:04 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 11:57:24 PM
Sid, I appreciate that you're a blueshirt who has been desperately embarrassed by the behaviour of FG
You're making a fool of yourself

Your post is as stupid as it would be if I called you an apologist for the LVF

It's six year old standard stuff

It's a really bad reflection on Sinn Fein when this is the level of "debating" used by their supporters
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 24, 2020, 07:46:56 AM
Tantrum over gents? Shall we get back to FFG/Golfgate?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on August 24, 2020, 08:03:15 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 24, 2020, 12:01:26 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 23, 2020, 11:57:24 PM
Sid, I appreciate that you're a blueshirt who has been desperately embarrassed by the behaviour of FG and now your only option it's to try take the heat off them by refusing to talk about the actual story at hand. And Fear Bun na Sceilpe, I appreciate that you have no apparent hobbies or interests beyond insufferably whining about SF, but I feel obliged to offer you both yet another gentle reminder (because I can see you're both struggling to grasp this) but this week's big news story actually isn't about SF.

That's weakest response I've ever seen. Bíodh ciall agat agus tar ar ais i mo chasa ar scor ar bith le rud éigin a dhéanann ciall. In short wise up, you've run out of stuff to say that makes any sense. wtf do you do but defend them

"What do I do but defend them?" You won't have to scroll back too many posts to see me refer to their social distancing breaches at Bobby Storey's funeral in June as "unnecessary, stupid and irresponsible".

So again, your (and Sids) attempts to class me as defending SFs every action are as daft as your laughably transparent attempts to divert 'Golfgate' into being a story all about SF. I mean FFS, that clown Sid even managed, in a way that would make Jim Allister blush, to shoehorn the IRA into Golfgate story!!lol
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on August 24, 2020, 10:34:37 AM
Any more names of the 'big hitters' of the 80+ who attended the the establishment's annual hooley?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on August 24, 2020, 11:00:21 AM
Quote from: marty34 on August 24, 2020, 10:34:37 AM
Any more names of the 'big hitters' of the 80+ who attended the the establishment's annual hooley?

Inda Kinny even knew it was a bad idea, played the golf and took off home..

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 24, 2020, 11:12:18 AM
Quote from: marty34 on August 24, 2020, 10:34:37 AM
Any more names of the 'big hitters' of the 80+ who attended the the establishment's annual hooley?
Moroccan ambassador!!
Brian Hayes ex FG TD and MEP, now a CEO of a Banking association of some sort.
Paudge Connolly ex Independent TD from Monaghan.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on August 24, 2020, 11:37:49 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 24, 2020, 11:12:18 AM
Quote from: marty34 on August 24, 2020, 10:34:37 AM
Any more names of the 'big hitters' of the 80+ who attended the the establishment's annual hooley?
Moroccan ambassador!!
Brian Hayes ex FG TD and MEP, now a CEO of a Banking association of some sort.
Paudge Connolly ex Independent TD from Monaghan.

And of course Connolly was only back from Spain so he was taking the double p¦ss.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on August 24, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.

It would seem like the answer here is no.

PS just for clarity:
Bobby Storey's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
Garda Horkan's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
The Golf Bash - VERY WRONG - there should be more resignations

Would you agree with the above Sid (et al)?  If you disagree, please present your rationale, with particular emphasis on how this doesn't then make you a raging hypocrite with an agenda.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.

It would seem like the answer here is no.

PS just for clarity:
Bobby Storey's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
Garda Horkan's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
The Golf Bash - VERY WRONG - there should be more resignations

Would you agree with the above Sid (et al)?  If you disagree, please present your rationale, with particular emphasis on how this doesn't then make you a raging hypocrite with an agenda.
Horkan's funeral didn't break the rules, though, Storey's did, and deliberately so

It had 12 times more people inside the church than it was supposed to

You also didn't specify who you wanted to resign from the Horkan funeral, funny that

FF and FG have more integrity than SF and more respect for front line workers - it's mad, but that's the way it is

McDonald and O'Neill gave a two fingers to front line workers - absolutely laughing through their teeth at them

In terms of raging hypocrisy, SF are the masters, and your post was a classic example

Trump style deflection and whinging form their cultists here like you simply won't cut it

Face up to the fact McDonald and O'Neill should resign
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on August 24, 2020, 01:29:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.

It would seem like the answer here is no.

PS just for clarity:
Bobby Storey's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
Garda Horkan's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
The Golf Bash - VERY WRONG - there should be more resignations

Would you agree with the above Sid (et al)?  If you disagree, please present your rationale, with particular emphasis on how this doesn't then make you a raging hypocrite with an agenda.
Horkan's funeral didn't break the rules, though, Storey's did, and deliberately so

It had 12 times more people inside the church than it was supposed to

You also didn't specify who you wanted to resign from the Horkan funeral, funny that

FF and FG have more integrity than SF and more respect for front line workers - it's mad, but that's the way it is

McDonald and O'Neill gave a two fingers to front line workers - absolutely laughing through their teeth at them

In terms of raging hypocrisy, SF are the masters, and your post was a classic example

Trump style deflection and whinging form their cultists here like you simply won't cut it

Face up to the fact McDonald and O'Neill should resign

;D Where to start here...

Posits that irrefutable facts are wrong
Presents opinions as facts
Presents no evidence to back up these 'facts'
Evades direct questions
Insults the person asking the questions

That's just about as 'Trumpian' as it gets.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:35:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.

It would seem like the answer here is no.

PS just for clarity:
Bobby Storey's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
Garda Horkan's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
The Golf Bash - VERY WRONG - there should be more resignations

Would you agree with the above Sid (et al)?  If you disagree, please present your rationale, with particular emphasis on how this doesn't then make you a raging hypocrite with an agenda.
Horkan's funeral didn't break the rules, though, Storey's did, and deliberately so

It had 12 times more people inside the church than it was supposed to

You also didn't specify who you wanted to resign from the Horkan funeral, funny that

FF and FG have more integrity than SF and more respect for front line workers - it's mad, but that's the way it is

McDonald and O'Neill gave a two fingers to front line workers - absolutely laughing through their teeth at them

In terms of raging hypocrisy, SF are the masters, and your post was a classic example

Trump style deflection and whinging form their cultists here like you simply won't cut it

Face up to the fact McDonald and O'Neill should resign

Horkan's funeral clearly did break the guidelines.

It's absolutely absurd you're denying it when it did - take your head out of your ass, the proof is there.

To compound matters, you are then using speculation to claim something you don't know happened, did.

Any more fabrications you'd like to spew?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 02:45:23 PM
SF supporters still giving the two fingers to frontline workers and everybody else who obeyed the guidelines

Unbelievable arrogance

You couldn't make it up

This really is an object lesson in what to expect should they ever get into government, excuses, excuses, excuses

Oh wait, we actually know that already from the north

And Trump style whinging and bleating from their child-like cultists when they're called out on it





Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on August 24, 2020, 03:17:36 PM
While I'd love to see Hogan getting the road for being such an arrogant twat, I saw Jim Callaghan quoted as saying Ireland would likely lose the post of Trade Commissioner if he does. It's a sickener having to look at him for the next few years but it would probably be in the best interests of the country to have him stay in the job
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on August 24, 2020, 03:25:21 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 02:45:23 PM
SF/FF/FG supporters still giving the two fingers to frontline workers and everybody else who obeyed the guidelines

Unbelievable arrogance

You couldn't make it up

This really is an object lesson in what to expect should they ever get into government, excuses, excuses, excuses

Oh wait, we actually know that already from the north

And Trump style whinging and bleating from their child-like cultists when they're called out on it

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 03:26:41 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 24, 2020, 03:17:36 PM
While I'd love to see Hogan getting the road for being such an arrogant twat, I saw Jim Callaghan quoted as saying Ireland would likely lose the post of Trade Commissioner if he does. It's a sickener having to look at him for the next few years but it would probably be in the best interests of the country to have him stay in the job
A larger problem is that if Hogan doesn't go it will be exploited by the far right nutcases to drive anti-EU sentiment in Ireland, and drive disillusionment with politics in general

He needs to go

It's not as if Ireland is short of options in terms of nominations to the commission, Coveney, Varadkar or Mairead McGuinness would all be well up to the job, all are more able politicians than Hogan

Fianna Fail's indiscretions over the last 30 years are all remembered - Haughey's "thanks big fella", Ray Burke's "line in the sand", Pee Flynn moaning about running three houses, McCreevy's "if I have it, I spend it", Liam Lawlor's piss taking, Bertie Ahern claiming he didn't have a bank account and asking why people "didn't commit suicide" if they weren't wearing the green jersey, the financial crash and the shambolic way they handled it

All those have added up to turn them into a toxic party and Cowen and Calleary have reinforced that within weeks of them taking power again

Politics in this country is at a point where full blown toxic populism could take hold, and if it does, it'll be because people like Hogan didn't go

There has to be accountability

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on August 24, 2020, 04:47:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 03:26:41 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 24, 2020, 03:17:36 PM
While I'd love to see Hogan getting the road for being such an arrogant twat, I saw Jim Callaghan quoted as saying Ireland would likely lose the post of Trade Commissioner if he does. It's a sickener having to look at him for the next few years but it would probably be in the best interests of the country to have him stay in the job
A larger problem is that if Hogan doesn't go it will be exploited by the far right nutcases to drive anti-EU sentiment in Ireland, and drive disillusionment with politics in general

He needs to go

It's not as if Ireland is short of options in terms of nominations to the commission, Coveney, Varadkar or Mairead McGuinness would all be well up to the job, all are more able politicians than Hogan


The quote from JOC was this:

QuoteMr O'Callaghan said we need to recognise this is an issue about what is in the national interest, rather than just punishing Mr Hogan for a stupid mistake.

He said Mr Hogan is the EU Trade Commissioner, and so if he resigns, the likelihood is Ireland loses that portfolio, and we will lose a huge advantage in terms of Brexit talks

So while there are certainly more able people than PH, the others would not get the Trade portfolio according to JOC. They'd presumably get a less influential portfolio.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on August 24, 2020, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 01:29:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.

It would seem like the answer here is no.

PS just for clarity:
Bobby Storey's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
Garda Horkan's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
The Golf Bash - VERY WRONG - there should be more resignations

Would you agree with the above Sid (et al)?  If you disagree, please present your rationale, with particular emphasis on how this doesn't then make you a raging hypocrite with an agenda.
Horkan's funeral didn't break the rules, though, Storey's did, and deliberately so

It had 12 times more people inside the church than it was supposed to

You also didn't specify who you wanted to resign from the Horkan funeral, funny that

FF and FG have more integrity than SF and more respect for front line workers - it's mad, but that's the way it is

McDonald and O'Neill gave a two fingers to front line workers - absolutely laughing through their teeth at them

In terms of raging hypocrisy, SF are the masters, and your post was a classic example

Trump style deflection and whinging form their cultists here like you simply won't cut it

Face up to the fact McDonald and O'Neill should resign

;D Where to start here...

Posits that irrefutable facts are wrong
Presents opinions as facts
Presents no evidence to back up these 'facts'
Evades direct questions
Insults the person asking the questions

That's just about as 'Trumpian' as it gets.

We can now add;

Refuse to engage when called out on it.

The thing is, you can throw all the tantrums and insults you like here.  Repeating dogmatic phrases and learned lines won't change anyone's mind, it'll just make people less likely to take you seriously.  Ironically, given your politics, you're a bit like Gemma O'Doherty in that regard.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 01:29:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.

It would seem like the answer here is no.

PS just for clarity:
Bobby Storey's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
Garda Horkan's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
The Golf Bash - VERY WRONG - there should be more resignations

Would you agree with the above Sid (et al)?  If you disagree, please present your rationale, with particular emphasis on how this doesn't then make you a raging hypocrite with an agenda.
Horkan's funeral didn't break the rules, though, Storey's did, and deliberately so

It had 12 times more people inside the church than it was supposed to

You also didn't specify who you wanted to resign from the Horkan funeral, funny that

FF and FG have more integrity than SF and more respect for front line workers - it's mad, but that's the way it is

McDonald and O'Neill gave a two fingers to front line workers - absolutely laughing through their teeth at them

In terms of raging hypocrisy, SF are the masters, and your post was a classic example

Trump style deflection and whinging form their cultists here like you simply won't cut it

Face up to the fact McDonald and O'Neill should resign

;D Where to start here...

Posits that irrefutable facts are wrong
Presents opinions as facts
Presents no evidence to back up these 'facts'
Evades direct questions
Insults the person asking the questions

That's just about as 'Trumpian' as it gets.

We can now add;

Refuse to engage when called out on it.

The thing is, you can throw all the tantrums and insults you like here.  Repeating dogmatic phrases and learned lines won't change anyone's mind, it'll just make people less likely to take you seriously.  Ironically, given your politics, you're a bit like Gemma O'Doherty in that regard.
Projection is a terrible thing

You are guilty of everything you list there

Listing your own faults and then baselessly accusing others of them in the absence of an argument is not debating

Being an angry Shinnerbot is not debating

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on August 25, 2020, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 01:29:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 24, 2020, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 24, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 23, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Can anyone explain why there was not widespread outrage at the funeral of the Garda in Mayo by the free state establishment when they got themselves in such a tizzy over Bobby Storey's funeral.

It would seem like the answer here is no.

PS just for clarity:
Bobby Storey's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
Garda Horkan's Funeral - WRONG - there should have been resignations
The Golf Bash - VERY WRONG - there should be more resignations

Would you agree with the above Sid (et al)?  If you disagree, please present your rationale, with particular emphasis on how this doesn't then make you a raging hypocrite with an agenda.
Horkan's funeral didn't break the rules, though, Storey's did, and deliberately so

It had 12 times more people inside the church than it was supposed to

You also didn't specify who you wanted to resign from the Horkan funeral, funny that

FF and FG have more integrity than SF and more respect for front line workers - it's mad, but that's the way it is

McDonald and O'Neill gave a two fingers to front line workers - absolutely laughing through their teeth at them

In terms of raging hypocrisy, SF are the masters, and your post was a classic example

Trump style deflection and whinging form their cultists here like you simply won't cut it

Face up to the fact McDonald and O'Neill should resign

;D Where to start here...

Posits that irrefutable facts are wrong
Presents opinions as facts
Presents no evidence to back up these 'facts'
Evades direct questions
Insults the person asking the questions

That's just about as 'Trumpian' as it gets.

We can now add;

Refuse to engage when called out on it.

The thing is, you can throw all the tantrums and insults you like here.  Repeating dogmatic phrases and learned lines won't change anyone's mind, it'll just make people less likely to take you seriously.  Ironically, given your politics, you're a bit like Gemma O'Doherty in that regard.
Projection is a terrible thing

You are guilty of everything you list there

Listing your own faults and then baselessly accusing others of them in the absence of an argument is not debating

Being an angry Shinnerbot is not debating

You've tried to use this type of response previously when called out on your nonsense.

It is as weak now as it was then.

People know a spoofer with an agenda when they see one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 25, 2020, 10:05:39 AM
It took you 15 hours to come up with that?

Sinn Fein broke the rules. 120 people attended a funeral at which there was supposed to be 10.

The Horkan funeral didn't break the rules.

If Sinn Fein are calling on Calleary, Buttimer, Hogan and Woulfe to resign, Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill should resign too, by their own logic they are not fit to hold office because they broke the rules.

And there's nothing more to say.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Franko on August 25, 2020, 10:15:19 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 25, 2020, 10:05:39 AM
It took you 15 hours to come up with that?

Sinn Fein broke the rules. 120 people attended a funeral at which there was supposed to be 10.

The Horkan funeral didn't break the rules.

If Sinn Fein are calling on Calleary, Buttimer, Hogan and Woulfe to resign, Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill should resign too, by their own logic they are not fit to hold office because they broke the rules.

And there's nothing more to say.

;D ;D

Sorry to disappoint, didn't realise you had me on the clock.  Did you sit up all night?

Some of us have other things to be doing other than angrily bashing out comments on an online forum.

I see you are set on continuing on the same Trump-esqe trajectory.

No worries, I'll leave it at that.  I'll even let you get the last word if it lets you get some sleep.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 25, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Franko on August 25, 2020, 10:15:19 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 25, 2020, 10:05:39 AM
It took you 15 hours to come up with that?

Sinn Fein broke the rules. 120 people attended a funeral at which there was supposed to be 10.

The Horkan funeral didn't break the rules.

If Sinn Fein are calling on Calleary, Buttimer, Hogan and Woulfe to resign, Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill should resign too, by their own logic they are not fit to hold office because they broke the rules.

And there's nothing more to say.

;D ;D

Sorry to disappoint, didn't realise you had me on the clock.  Did you sit up all night?

Some of us have other things to be doing other than angrily bashing out comments on an online forum.

I see you are set on continuing on the same Trump-esqe trajectory.

No worries, I'll leave it at that.  I'll even let you get the last word if it lets you get some sleep.

Back with the projectile trolling, I see. Bye now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 25, 2020, 11:27:33 AM
Von der Leyen demanding a report from Hogan detailing his movements and the circumstances in which they took place.

He's increasingly fooked.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 25, 2020, 11:41:48 AM
Even if he somehow hangs on he's a dead man walking.
His day is done.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on August 25, 2020, 10:19:52 PM
Hogan surely gone after the govt statement
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 26, 2020, 07:59:04 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 25, 2020, 10:19:52 PM
Hogan surely gone after the govt statement
A government can't sack their commissioner, each commissioner is supposed to be independent of their own country and make decisions with a European hat rather than an Irish (or wherever) hat. So apparently the thinking is that allowing countries to fire their own commissioners could jeopardise that.

But the commission president can fire a commissioner. According to Dunphy's podcast, only one commissioner has ever been fired (a Maltese for corruption/bribery). So Big Phil would be in exalted company! 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on August 26, 2020, 09:44:20 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 07:59:04 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 25, 2020, 10:19:52 PM
Hogan surely gone after the govt statement
A government can't sack their commissioner, each commissioner is supposed to be independent of their own country and make decisions with a European hat rather than an Irish (or wherever) hat. So apparently the thinking is that allowing countries to fire their own commissioners could jeopardise that.

But the commission president can fire a commissioner. According to Dunphy's podcast, only one commissioner has ever been fired (a Maltese for corruption/bribery). So Big Phil would be in exalted company!

That statement has to put serious pressure the commission president on though. As I said earlier, I'd like him gone for his arrogance on the one hand but I'd like him kept to give us as much influence as possible during the Brexit trade negotiations.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:20:04 AM
I don't think the commission will call on Hogan to resign, this isn't mispractice in office, each of the things he is accused of are things that would lead to other people resigning if that precedent was set. He isn't like Colleary, he attended the event and didn't organise it and did not have any particular knowledge of the regulations.
Let's say the President of the GAA was to attend some event where the Minister of Sport was speaking, and he said that he had be assured that the rules were followed and expected that the presence of the minister ensured that.
I don't think the government wants him to resign, they are merely sounding tough.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 10:32:35 AM
The Government are in the comfy position that they can damn Hogan all day long knowing only the EU Commission can dump him.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:50:55 AM
https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/08/26/easy-pickings-3/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 26, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to

Yes, we heard you the first time.

Quote from: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.

What have you learned since Monday that has shifted things from "more than likely paid for by the taxpayer" to staying with certainty that it was an event "subsidised by the taxpayer"?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 26, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to

Yes, we heard you the first time.

Quote from: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.

What have you learned since Monday that has shifted things from "more than likely paid for by the taxpayer" to staying with certainty that it was an event "subsidised by the taxpayer"?

So we can decipher that you are happy that the establishment parties are mingling with judges, baking lobbyists, heads of vulture funds, current affairs broadcasters etc when both parties have a long history of shady dealings and corruption with wealthy private individuals?

Surely this is a cause of concern?

Or maybe you think this is perfectly good optics, you saw fit enough to respond so why don't you tell us what you think because my feelings are on record.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 01:01:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 26, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to

Yes, we heard you the first time.

Quote from: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.

What have you learned since Monday that has shifted things from "more than likely paid for by the taxpayer" to staying with certainty that it was an event "subsidised by the taxpayer"?

So we can decipher that you are happy that the establishment parties are mingling with judges, baking lobbyists, heads of vulture funds, current affairs broadcasters etc when both parties have a long history of shady dealings and corruption with wealthy private individuals?

Surely this is a cause of concern?

Or maybe you think this is perfectly good optics, you saw fit enough to respond so why don't you tell us what you think because my feelings are on record.

Does your workplace have a golf event or similar? Mine does, I think it also has a squash club although that is too energetic for me.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
I wondevwhat age Angelo is? I suspect around 16?
The establishments of all Countries have always been mingling together at social events since time immemorial.

From my limited knowledge of Golf Societies there's a membership fee and they pay to play on different courses and pay for social events which are often subsidised by the Society from the fees.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 26, 2020, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
I wondevwhat age Angelo is? I suspect around 16?
The establishments of all Countries have always been mingling together at social events since time immemorial.

From my limited knowledge of Golf Societies there's a membership fee and they pay to play on different courses and pay for social events which are often subsidised by the Society from the fees.
Absolutely. Although the one I do have a problem with is the Supreme Court judge. I don't think he should be gallivanting with current government ministers, or even TDs. But it's good the courts are investigating him.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
I wondevwhat age Angelo is? I suspect around 16?
The establishments of all Countries have always been mingling together at social events since time immemorial.

From my limited knowledge of Golf Societies there's a membership fee and they pay to play on different courses and pay for social events which are often subsidised by the Society from the fees.
Absolutely. Although the one I do have a problem with is the Supreme Court judge. I don't think he should be gallivanting with current government ministers, or even TDs. But it's good the courts are investigating him.

Just the judge?

What about a current affairs presenter from the state broadcaster?
A banking lobbyist?
Directors from a vulture fund?

All mixing, lobbying and greasing poles with Government Ministers and officials. It absolutely reeks, another extension of the FF tent in Galway and another insight into the mechanisms of the FFG mindset.

Puppets for Larry Goodman, Dennis O'Brien, large MNCs, banks and vulture funds. They are the people who influence policy in the 26, the FFG politicians are just the whores who sell their wares to implement those policies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 26, 2020, 02:45:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
I wondevwhat age Angelo is? I suspect around 16?
The establishments of all Countries have always been mingling together at social events since time immemorial.

From my limited knowledge of Golf Societies there's a membership fee and they pay to play on different courses and pay for social events which are often subsidised by the Society from the fees.
Absolutely. Although the one I do have a problem with is the Supreme Court judge. I don't think he should be gallivanting with current government ministers, or even TDs. But it's good the courts are investigating him.

Just the judge?

What about a current affairs presenter from the state broadcaster?
A banking lobbyist?
Directors from a vulture fund?

All mixing, lobbying and greasing poles with Government Ministers and officials. It absolutely reeks, another extension of the FF tent in Galway and another insight into the mechanisms of the FFG mindset.

Puppets for Larry Goodman, Dennis O'Brien, large MNCs, banks and vulture funds. They are the people who influence policy in the 26, the FFG politicians are just the whores who sell their wares to implement those policies.
I haven't seen the full list of attendees (is it online anywhere?), I thought there was only one minister, who was duly fired, and 2/3 senators who got reprimanded, and have little influence anyway.

The RTÉ guy is retired I thought. And any chance of future work with RTE has gone up in flames.

Business people mingling with politicians (or mainly ex-politicians in this case) is hardly news.

Is Pearse Doherty the shadow finance minister now? I guarantee whoever it is will be guest speaker at a large number of business events over the coming 2 years (even if they are held virtually), run by big business, accountants, lawyers and/or banks. That's the way it works. Doesn't mean there are brown paper bags being passed around (anymore anyway!). Equally SF have been building friendships across media platforms too.

So, other than Covid, and the judge, I don't there was anything untoward about the guest list, from the limited pieces I've seen (caveat that I haven't seen the full list)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 04:17:53 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 02:45:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
I wondevwhat age Angelo is? I suspect around 16?
The establishments of all Countries have always been mingling together at social events since time immemorial.

From my limited knowledge of Golf Societies there's a membership fee and they pay to play on different courses and pay for social events which are often subsidised by the Society from the fees.
Absolutely. Although the one I do have a problem with is the Supreme Court judge. I don't think he should be gallivanting with current government ministers, or even TDs. But it's good the courts are investigating him.

Just the judge?

What about a current affairs presenter from the state broadcaster?
A banking lobbyist?
Directors from a vulture fund?

All mixing, lobbying and greasing poles with Government Ministers and officials. It absolutely reeks, another extension of the FF tent in Galway and another insight into the mechanisms of the FFG mindset.

Puppets for Larry Goodman, Dennis O'Brien, large MNCs, banks and vulture funds. They are the people who influence policy in the 26, the FFG politicians are just the whores who sell their wares to implement those policies.
I haven't seen the full list of attendees (is it online anywhere?), I thought there was only one minister, who was duly fired, and 2/3 senators who got reprimanded, and have little influence anyway.

The RTÉ guy is retired I thought. And any chance of future work with RTE has gone up in flames.

Business people mingling with politicians (or mainly ex-politicians in this case) is hardly news.

Is Pearse Doherty the shadow finance minister now? I guarantee whoever it is will be guest speaker at a large number of business events over the coming 2 years (even if they are held virtually), run by big business, accountants, lawyers and/or banks. That's the way it works. Doesn't mean there are brown paper bags being passed around (anymore anyway!). Equally SF have been building friendships across media platforms too.

So, other than Covid, and the judge, I don't there was anything untoward about the guest list, from the limited pieces I've seen (caveat that I haven't seen the full list)

The RTE guy is the epitome of an establishment shill, so it was absolutely no surprise to see he was schmoozing around with FFG figures at an Oireachtas golf event. I think it shows the kind of cesspit RTE is, they had the sister of a high ranking FF TD chairing the key live TV debate before the election, clambering over everyone to "let Michael Martin speak" with softy, softy questions laid on for him before the last election.

Brian Hayes, ex FG TD and MEP was there in his current role as president of some baking lobbying group, his three guests are said to have been directors from a vulture fund called Promontoria.

It's certainly very bad optics for a social umbrella of Government to be wining and dining all these people of vested interests, wealth and influence together.

The Covid angle shows the arrogance of these people.

But the bigger story here is the type of circle you have at a state social outing. It's not good optics for government or the politicians to be mixing in these type of circles, particularly when the two main representative parties (FF & FG) have a long shadowy history of corruption and underhand dealings.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: bannside on August 26, 2020, 04:25:43 PM
As opposed to which political party exactly that could inspire confidence that all matters would be upfront above board, wholly transparent and not a sign in sight of an underhand deal?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: bannside on August 26, 2020, 04:25:43 PM
As opposed to which political party exactly that could inspire confidence that all matters would be upfront above board, wholly transparent and not a sign in sight of an underhand deal?

There are parties out there who are not mired in political corruption scandals like FFG. There are political parties out there not joined at the hip with people like Larry Goodman and Denis O'Brien, property developers and banks and their own interests.

This is fundamentally what political parties and politicians should be held to account for.

The 26 now has a Taoiseach that took bungs from property developers and political commentators and media broadcasters didn't find this matter of public interest in the run-up to the last election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dublin7 on August 26, 2020, 07:01:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: bannside on August 26, 2020, 04:25:43 PM
As opposed to which political party exactly that could inspire confidence that all matters would be upfront above board, wholly transparent and not a sign in sight of an underhand deal?

There are parties out there who are not mired in political corruption scandals like FFG. There are political parties out there not joined at the hip with people like Larry Goodman and Denis O'Brien, property developers and banks and their own interests.

This is fundamentally what political parties and politicians should be held to account for.

The 26 now has a Taoiseach that took bungs from property developers and political commentators and media broadcasters didn't find this matter of public interest in the run-up to the last election.

There are political parties out there who have been joined at the hip with paramilitary organisations. Does that not bother you?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 07:37:10 PM
Media reporting that Hogan is to resign this evening.
Hadn't much option.
I wonder will Leo head for Brussels or will FF have 1st choice.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.

There is quite rightly anger and outrage towards them when they do that for a glorified golf piss up while asking everyone else to fall in.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cunny Funt on August 26, 2020, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 07:37:10 PM
Media reporting that Hogan is to resign this evening.
Hadn't much option.
I wonder will Leo head for Brussels or will FF have 1st choice.

He should have resigned straight away. A total idiot to let this drag out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 26, 2020, 09:10:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 07:37:10 PM
Media reporting that Hogan is to resign this evening.
Hadn't much option.
I wonder will Leo head for Brussels or will FF have 1st choice.

So we're not "losing" a commissioner then?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rois on August 26, 2020, 09:11:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 04:17:53 PM

Brian Hayes, ex FG TD and MEP was there in his current role as president of some baking lobbying group, his three guests are said to have been directors from a vulture fund called Promontoria.

That's our Cerberus friends
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on August 26, 2020, 09:32:32 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 26, 2020, 09:10:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 07:37:10 PM
Media reporting that Hogan is to resign this evening.
Hadn't much option.
I wonder will Leo head for Brussels or will FF have 1st choice.

So we're not "losing" a commissioner then?

No guarantee we'll keep that. While what he did was wrong, but think we were silly to leave EU in disarray and effectively hand a victory to the Brits in the middle of Brexit negotiations. They will be glad to see the thick ignorant bollocks gone. It's similar to the way we forced Albert Reynolds to resign. He had to go - but we let the peace process get effed up to ensure we got his head. It was a bad mistake yet we are forcing kids and teachers back to school next week. I think we have outwitted ourselves on this one. I'm not a fan of his, or Reynolds previously - but they were still the best men for important jobs at the time. You had DUP calling for Michelle O'Neil's head too, which would have been disaster for new Stormont regime. Needs to be some middle ground in these matters.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on August 26, 2020, 10:15:47 PM
Hogan comes across as a knob but was it really necessary to hound him out of the commission? He didn't represent the Irish people directly. It's completely different to Calleary who helped decide on the regulations as part of government.

The common argument on Twitter seemed to be there can't be one rule for the elite and another for us. Is the precedent now that any breach of covid guidelines must result in people losing their job? What if the gardaí call to a house party this weekend and find 40 people inside?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:33:02 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 26, 2020, 10:15:47 PM
Hogan comes across as a knob but was it really necessary to hound him out of the commission? He didn't represent the Irish people directly. It's completely different to Calleary who helped decide on the regulations as part of government.

The common argument on Twitter seemed to be there can't be one rule for the elite and another for us. Is the precedent now that any breach of covid guidelines must result in people losing their job? What if the gardaí call to a house party this weekend and find 40 people inside?
The Commission put out a statement immediately after it came known that he was at the event  (based on information they received from Hogan or Hogan's people) that contained half truths (or you could go as far as lies).
I would say that did not go down well at all and probably carried even more weight than him breaching Covid guidelines.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:43:42 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.

All part of the establishment, the vast majority of those in attendance were tied to FFG.

If you can spot a few high profile SF members at golf piss ups then be sure to pass them on and they should certainly be considering their positions.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on August 26, 2020, 10:45:53 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:33:02 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 26, 2020, 10:15:47 PM
Hogan comes across as a knob but was it really necessary to hound him out of the commission? He didn't represent the Irish people directly. It's completely different to Calleary who helped decide on the regulations as part of government.

The common argument on Twitter seemed to be there can't be one rule for the elite and another for us. Is the precedent now that any breach of covid guidelines must result in people losing their job? What if the gardaí call to a house party this weekend and find 40 people inside?
The Commission put out a statement immediately after it came known that he was at the event  (based on information they received from Hogan or Hogan's people) that contained half truths (or you could go as far as lies).
I would say that did not go down well at all and probably carried even more weight than him breaching Covid guidelines.

Apparently Phil applying for the WTO job after only being trade commissioner a wet week didn't endear him to the commission either
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:49:32 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 26, 2020, 10:45:53 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:33:02 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 26, 2020, 10:15:47 PM
Hogan comes across as a knob but was it really necessary to hound him out of the commission? He didn't represent the Irish people directly. It's completely different to Calleary who helped decide on the regulations as part of government.

The common argument on Twitter seemed to be there can't be one rule for the elite and another for us. Is the precedent now that any breach of covid guidelines must result in people losing their job? What if the gardaí call to a house party this weekend and find 40 people inside?
The Commission put out a statement immediately after it came known that he was at the event  (based on information they received from Hogan or Hogan's people) that contained half truths (or you could go as far as lies).
I would say that did not go down well at all and probably carried even more weight than him breaching Covid guidelines.

Apparently Phil applying for the WTO job after only being trade commissioner a wet week didn't endear him to the commission either
Yep. Finally got too big for his boots!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: sid waddell on August 26, 2020, 11:37:21 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 26, 2020, 10:15:47 PM
Hogan comes across as a knob but was it really necessary to hound him out of the commission? He didn't represent the Irish people directly. It's completely different to Calleary who helped decide on the regulations as part of government.

The common argument on Twitter seemed to be there can't be one rule for the elite and another for us. Is the precedent now that any breach of covid guidelines must result in people losing their job? What if the gardaí call to a house party this weekend and find 40 people inside?
This is an argument which is basically the same as the "where does it stop" nonsense when the statue of the slave trader in Bristol was pulled down

Anybody in an important political position or tasked with an important role in public policy formulation has a duty to uphold the rules and face the consequences if they flagrantly break them - because they are the people tasked with legislating as well persuading everybody else that they should uphold them



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 11:48:44 PM
Coveney being tipped to replace him with Irish Government asking Commission to leave us with the Trade portfolio.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on August 27, 2020, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2020, 11:48:44 PM
Coveney being tipped to replace him with Irish Government asking Commission to leave us with the Trade portfolio.

Wouldn't be a bad outcome if we could get him back to national politics once his stint is over.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.

Calleary wasn't fired, he resigned his ministry and deputy leadership, but he remains a sitting TD.  Not many people who get "fired" remain on €96k a year. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:04:51 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 26, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to

Yes, we heard you the first time.

Quote from: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.

What have you learned since Monday that has shifted things from "more than likely paid for by the taxpayer" to staying with certainty that it was an event "subsidised by the taxpayer"?

So we can decipher that you are happy that the establishment parties are mingling with judges, baking lobbyists, heads of vulture funds, current affairs broadcasters etc when both parties have a long history of shady dealings and corruption with wealthy private individuals?

Surely this is a cause of concern?

Or maybe you think this is perfectly good optics, you saw fit enough to respond so why don't you tell us what you think because my feelings are on record.

You'd have to be really, really stupid (or perhaps simply have an agenda) to "decipher" that from my highly encrypted post.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 27, 2020, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.

Calleary wasn't fired, he resigned his ministry and deputy leadership, but he remains a sitting TD.  Not many people who get "fired" remain on €96k a year.
He was 100% fired from the ministerial job he was appointed to and from the deputy leadership.
He can't be fired from the position he was elected to by his constituents (for this anyway) until the next election. But it's a big reduction in salary and monumental reduction in future pension entitlements, so he's been hit hard.

Wouldn't be keen on Coveney going to Europe. Not too many really impressive TDS around, but he's definitely one of them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:12:29 AM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 26, 2020, 10:15:47 PM
Hogan comes across as a knob but was it really necessary to hound him out of the commission? He didn't represent the Irish people directly. It's completely different to Calleary who helped decide on the regulations as part of government.

The common argument on Twitter seemed to be there can't be one rule for the elite and another for us. Is the precedent now that any breach of covid guidelines must result in people losing their job? What if the gardaí call to a house party this weekend and find 40 people inside?

If Hogan was to have any chance to survive and have people on side with the "f**k the p***k but we need him at the table" angle he should have come out immediately with a clear list of all his movements since returning to the country and offered a full apology.

Instead, he drip fed statements over a number of days trying to lay the blame at the door of others (the hotels federation ffs) and clearly withheld information (that was inevitably going to emerge anyway) in case it compromised him further. In doing that he lost all sympathy.

He wasn't hounded out of office. He fucked up time and again and people simply asked him to be held up account like any other Joe soap would expect to be.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:04:51 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 26, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to

Yes, we heard you the first time.

Quote from: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.

What have you learned since Monday that has shifted things from "more than likely paid for by the taxpayer" to staying with certainty that it was an event "subsidised by the taxpayer"?

So we can decipher that you are happy that the establishment parties are mingling with judges, baking lobbyists, heads of vulture funds, current affairs broadcasters etc when both parties have a long history of shady dealings and corruption with wealthy private individuals?

Surely this is a cause of concern?

Or maybe you think this is perfectly good optics, you saw fit enough to respond so why don't you tell us what you think because my feelings are on record.

You'd have to be really, really stupid (or perhaps simply have an agenda) to "decipher" that from my highly encrypted post.

Well you have once again failed to offer an opinion, only an attempt to stifle that line of discussion.

The floor is yours if you have any backbone?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on August 27, 2020, 09:35:40 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:12:29 AM

If Hogan was to have any chance to survive and have people on side with the "f**k the p***k but we need him at the table" angle he should have come out immediately with a clear list of all his movements since returning to the country and offered a full apology.

Instead, he drip fed statements over a number of days trying to lay the blame at the door of others (the hotels federation ffs) and clearly withheld information (that was inevitably going to emerge anyway) in case it compromised him further. In doing that he lost all sympathy.

He wasn't hounded out of office. He fucked up time and again and Pele simply asked him to be held up account like any other Joe soap would expect to be.

I agree with all of this. I suspect he had something to hide that meant he couldn't come clean with a list of his movements across the country. I have no idea what this might have been although the old saying Cherchez la femme is usually useful in such cases.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 27, 2020, 09:38:45 AM
I suspect he's hiding Shergar and went to check on him.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.

Calleary wasn't fired, he resigned his ministry and deputy leadership, but he remains a sitting TD.  Not many people who get "fired" remain on €96k a year.
He was 100% fired from the ministerial job he was appointed to and from the deputy leadership.
He can't be fired from the position he was elected to by his constituents (for this anyway) until the next election. But it's a big reduction in salary and monumental reduction in future pension entitlements, so he's been hit hard.

Wouldn't be keen on Coveney going to Europe. Not too many really impressive TDS around, but he's definitely one of them.

Can you put up an article there where it says he was fired?  Any I have seen say he resigned voluntarily.  And if his transgression was bad enough to resign a ministry and position within the party, was it not big enough to resign as a TD also and allow the people who voted him in to decide whether they want to keep him or not?  Though I suspect they know the answer to that so don't want to take the risk.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:04:51 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 26, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to

Yes, we heard you the first time.

Quote from: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.

What have you learned since Monday that has shifted things from "more than likely paid for by the taxpayer" to staying with certainty that it was an event "subsidised by the taxpayer"?

So we can decipher that you are happy that the establishment parties are mingling with judges, baking lobbyists, heads of vulture funds, current affairs broadcasters etc when both parties have a long history of shady dealings and corruption with wealthy private individuals?

Surely this is a cause of concern?

Or maybe you think this is perfectly good optics, you saw fit enough to respond so why don't you tell us what you think because my feelings are on record.

You'd have to be really, really stupid (or perhaps simply have an agenda) to "decipher" that from my highly encrypted post.

Well you have once again failed to offer an opinion, only an attempt to stifle that line of discussion.

The floor is yours if you have any backbone?

What am I supposed to be offering an opinion on? My original point was that you were raising yourself by copying and pasting the same post from a couple of days previously.

You then suggested that I'm happy with all the cosy relationships you described. (Completely unrelated to my point in case you can't work it out)

I then pointed out that you'd have to be really f**king stupid to come to that conclusion?

Is it your intelligence you want my opinion on?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on August 27, 2020, 11:30:19 AM
A comment on RTE this morning about Hogan's resignation 

"he left big shoes to fill".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 27, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: Main Street on August 27, 2020, 11:30:19 AM
A comment on RTE this morning about Hogan's resignation 

"he left big shoes to fill".

A number of EU officials saying the same thing. Could Mairead McGuinness be his successor or would that throw the EU parliament into disarray?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 12:56:31 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 27, 2020, 09:04:51 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 26, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
The big story really should be the public unearthing of Gov ministers, establishment party TDs and senators, court judgers, banking lobbyists and heads of vulture funds all mingling at an event subsidised for by the tax payer.

It just shows you the inner workings of FFG and how inherently corrupt they are and the type of people they serve and answer to

Yes, we heard you the first time.

Quote from: Angelo on August 24, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
The big story for me is FFG political figures, judges, current affairs broadcaster, bankers, vulture fund heads and all the rest cosying up with each other a slimey little event more than likely paid for by the taxpayer. It just shows you how inherently corrupt FFG are and the arrogance that they have that restrictions don't apply to him, particularly when it comes to an opulent piss up.

What have you learned since Monday that has shifted things from "more than likely paid for by the taxpayer" to staying with certainty that it was an event "subsidised by the taxpayer"?

So we can decipher that you are happy that the establishment parties are mingling with judges, baking lobbyists, heads of vulture funds, current affairs broadcasters etc when both parties have a long history of shady dealings and corruption with wealthy private individuals?

Surely this is a cause of concern?

Or maybe you think this is perfectly good optics, you saw fit enough to respond so why don't you tell us what you think because my feelings are on record.

You'd have to be really, really stupid (or perhaps simply have an agenda) to "decipher" that from my highly encrypted post.

Well you have once again failed to offer an opinion, only an attempt to stifle that line of discussion.

The floor is yours if you have any backbone?

What am I supposed to be offering an opinion on? My original point was that you were raising yourself by copying and pasting the same post from a couple of days previously.

You then suggested that I'm happy with all the cosy relationships you described. (Completely unrelated to my point in case you can't work it out)

I then pointed out that you'd have to be really f**king stupid to come to that conclusion?

Is it your intelligence you want my opinion on?

You could offer an opinion on the point you tried to stifle but it seems you are living up the old adage of "an empty vessel makes the most noise".

I think you need to have a semblance of intelligence before you could comment on others, so you're certainly unqualified to offer anything there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on August 27, 2020, 12:58:13 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 27, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: Main Street on August 27, 2020, 11:30:19 AM
A comment on RTE this morning about Hogan's resignation 

"he left big shoes to fill".

A number of EU officials saying the same thing. Could Mairead McGuinness be his successor or would that throw the EU parliament into disarray?
if I have to explain the humour, then it ain't funny.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 27, 2020, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.

Calleary wasn't fired, he resigned his ministry and deputy leadership, but he remains a sitting TD.  Not many people who get "fired" remain on €96k a year.
He was 100% fired from the ministerial job he was appointed to and from the deputy leadership.
He can't be fired from the position he was elected to by his constituents (for this anyway) until the next election. But it's a big reduction in salary and monumental reduction in future pension entitlements, so he's been hit hard.

Wouldn't be keen on Coveney going to Europe. Not too many really impressive TDS around, but he's definitely one of them.

Can you put up an article there where it says he was fired?  Any I have seen say he resigned voluntarily.  And if his transgression was bad enough to resign a ministry and position within the party, was it not big enough to resign as a TD also and allow the people who voted him in to decide whether they want to keep him or not?  Though I suspect they know the answer to that so don't want to take the risk.
FFS, he was told to resign. Probably a 30 second conversation with both parties knowing there was only one possible outcome. The man lost his ministerial job and the wages and pension that go with it, which was completely correct given the position he held and that he was involved in approving the revised lockdown provisions just a day or two earlier.

Saying he should resign his seat is completely disproportionate to the 'crime' committed. He's lost power, he's lost influence, he's lost a lot of money, but he hasn't actually committed a crime that should send him to the dole queue. Unless you think everyone who breaks govt advice on Covid should lose their jobs!

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.

Calleary wasn't fired, he resigned his ministry and deputy leadership, but he remains a sitting TD.  Not many people who get "fired" remain on €96k a year.
He was 100% fired from the ministerial job he was appointed to and from the deputy leadership.
He can't be fired from the position he was elected to by his constituents (for this anyway) until the next election. But it's a big reduction in salary and monumental reduction in future pension entitlements, so he's been hit hard.

Wouldn't be keen on Coveney going to Europe. Not too many really impressive TDS around, but he's definitely one of them.

Can you put up an article there where it says he was fired?  Any I have seen say he resigned voluntarily.  And if his transgression was bad enough to resign a ministry and position within the party, was it not big enough to resign as a TD also and allow the people who voted him in to decide whether they want to keep him or not?  Though I suspect they know the answer to that so don't want to take the risk.
FFS, he was told to resign. Probably a 30 second conversation with both parties knowing there was only one possible outcome. The man lost his ministerial job and the wages and pension that go with it, which was completely correct given the position he held and that he was involved in approving the revised lockdown provisions just a day or two earlier.

Saying he should resign his seat is completely disproportionate to the 'crime' committed. He's lost power, he's lost influence, he's lost a lot of money, but he hasn't actually committed a crime that should send him to the dole queue. Unless you think everyone who breaks govt advice on Covid should lose their jobs!

He's hardly lost a lot of money.

He's on a 96k per annum job with huge tax free expenses on top of that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 04:18:35 PM
Losing a ministerial salary and associated pension entitlements is a lot of money, would you not agree?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 04:18:35 PM
Losing a ministerial salary and associated pension entitlements is a lot of money, would you not agree?

He's been a TD for a decade plus.

He's already a millionaire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on August 27, 2020, 04:53:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 04:18:35 PM
Losing a ministerial salary and associated pension entitlements is a lot of money, would you not agree?

He's been a TD for a decade plus.

He's already a millionaire.

How does that compute? Earning the guts of a hundred grand a year for 10 years plus most certainly does not make one a millionaire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 27, 2020, 05:46:54 PM
Dont be so silly 5 points.
Angelo is always right about everything ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 05:49:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 04:18:35 PM
Losing a ministerial salary and associated pension entitlements is a lot of money, would you not agree?

He's been a TD for a decade plus.

He's already a millionaire.

Are you familiar with income tax?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 27, 2020, 07:18:52 PM
No tax, PRSI USC or Pension deductions in a cave in Tyrone ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Crete Boom on August 27, 2020, 07:36:33 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 04:18:35 PM
Losing a ministerial salary and associated pension entitlements is a lot of money, would you not agree?

Does he get a ministerial pension for being junior  labour minister for a couple of years the last time FF were in government?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 11:27:30 PM
Quote from: five points on August 27, 2020, 04:53:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 27, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 04:18:35 PM
Losing a ministerial salary and associated pension entitlements is a lot of money, would you not agree?

He's been a TD for a decade plus.

He's already a millionaire.

How does that compute? Earning the guts of a hundred grand a year for 10 years plus most certainly does not make one a millionaire.

Well in excess of 100k when you put in their expenses and additional allowances.

100k a year for 14 years = c€1.4m
Probably additional tax free expenses of in the region of €500k
Other allowances probably in the region of a few hundred k

Along with a bumper pension tied up whenever he calls it a day.

Unless he has a chronic gambling problem or has a messy divorce, he's a millionaire.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 27, 2020, 11:40:02 PM
He doesn't pay tax Prsi etc.
He lives in a cave, gets free grub and drink and never spends a cent.
Leaves his wife and children penniless.
And obviously gets his pension paid in advance.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 07:24:48 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 27, 2020, 11:40:02 PM
He doesn't pay tax Prsi etc.
He lives in a cave, gets free grub and drink and never spends a cent.
Leaves his wife and children penniless.
And obviously gets his pension paid in advance.

Are you accussing him of being negligent with money? Because I don't see how he should be on the breadline on over 100k+ a year for the past 14 years. Not to mention that he was born into money, third generation TD in his family.

Only the most idiotic sort of gombeen would be playing the poor mouth for a long serving FFG TD who comes from a political dynasty. It's flabbergasting.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 07:32:13 AM
Since when were being a millionaire and "not being on the breadline" the same thing??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on August 28, 2020, 08:34:02 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 26, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 26, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 26, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
Phil should offer and Ursula should refuse. Then he should go back to kicking the British.

Will the hotel be prosecuted? That's the real issue here, businesses all over the country taking the piss and no action being taken against them, from meat plants to restaurants.

The real issue is the hotel?

FFS, what level of shill are you? The people in attendance are the ones tasked with implementing legislation, upholding it and bringing people to account for it and they thought they were all above it.


Because the people responsible for implementing legislation have generally not done so, and so hotels, pubs, meat factories etc are not brought to account. Even the rules for people coming into the country are poorly defined.

The people responsible for implementing legislation were down in Galway, flouting their own laws at a golf piss up.

And you think the big story is the hotel?
'The people responsible for the new rules"????
There was one member of government who was part of the cabinet that approved the new rules and badly at fault and rightly fired. But only one.

The hotel definitely has to be looked at given they supposedly guaranteed that the new rules were being undertaken. Albeit everyone does have to take personal responsibility too.

It wasn't just ex-FF and ex-FG politicians, there were Independents, Labour and Workers Party reps there too it seems. From the list on wiki the average age seemed to be approaching 60.

I'll look forward to giving you details of Sinn Fein politicians attending business functions over the next couple of years to see if your outrage at politicians (even though it was mostly former politicians in this case) entertaining with business people continues.

Calleary wasn't fired, he resigned his ministry and deputy leadership, but he remains a sitting TD.  Not many people who get "fired" remain on €96k a year.
He was 100% fired from the ministerial job he was appointed to and from the deputy leadership.
He can't be fired from the position he was elected to by his constituents (for this anyway) until the next election. But it's a big reduction in salary and monumental reduction in future pension entitlements, so he's been hit hard.

Wouldn't be keen on Coveney going to Europe. Not too many really impressive TDS around, but he's definitely one of them.

Can you put up an article there where it says he was fired?  Any I have seen say he resigned voluntarily.  And if his transgression was bad enough to resign a ministry and position within the party, was it not big enough to resign as a TD also and allow the people who voted him in to decide whether they want to keep him or not?  Though I suspect they know the answer to that so don't want to take the risk.
FFS, he was told to resign. Probably a 30 second conversation with both parties knowing there was only one possible outcome. The man lost his ministerial job and the wages and pension that go with it, which was completely correct given the position he held and that he was involved in approving the revised lockdown provisions just a day or two earlier.

Saying he should resign his seat is completely disproportionate to the 'crime' committed. He's lost power, he's lost influence, he's lost a lot of money, but he hasn't actually committed a crime that should send him to the dole queue. Unless you think everyone who breaks govt advice on Covid should lose their jobs!

Someone who goes into a shop without a mask or stays in a bar for 110 minutes shouldn't lose their job as an accountant or librarian or whatever, but they are liable for a €2,500 fine.  How many of these were dished out to the attendees? I do see though, a big difference in that and a person who is involved in drafting and voting for laws, who then doesn't follow them themselves.  That I think is fair game.  If I did something similar in my own job it would be gross misconduct and I would be straight out the door, not into a fall back position of €96k a year.

As for the losing power, influence and a lot of money, if that is what he got into politics for then the fewer of those types in power the better imo.  And that is across the entire Dáil and the island for that matter. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 28, 2020, 10:12:46 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 07:32:13 AM
Since when were being a millionaire and "not being on the breadline" the same thing??
Angelo is pure comedy gold😄
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on August 28, 2020, 10:30:03 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 28, 2020, 08:34:02 AM

Someone who goes into a shop without a mask or stays in a bar for 110 minutes shouldn't lose their job as an accountant or librarian or whatever, but they are liable for a €2,500 fine. 

Not true by the way. The max fine upon conviction is indeed €2,500 but the level of the fine and its imposition or otherwise in each case is up to a judge to decide based on the facts of the case.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 07:32:13 AM
Since when were being a millionaire and "not being on the breadline" the same thing??

When someone cited the hardship he has fallen on since he lost his ministerial job.

The less you contribute, the smarter you come across.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on August 28, 2020, 10:55:06 AM
Quote from: five points on August 28, 2020, 10:30:03 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 28, 2020, 08:34:02 AM

Someone who goes into a shop without a mask or stays in a bar for 110 minutes shouldn't lose their job as an accountant or librarian or whatever, but they are liable for a €2,500 fine. 

Not true by the way. The max fine upon conviction is indeed €2,500 but the level of the fine and its imposition or otherwise in each case is up to a judge to decide based on the facts of the case.

Fair enough but should a judge decide, then the person in the shop without a mask could have to pay €2,500 no?

Are the facts of the case in Clifden in dispute?  I would have thought stepping down from a prominent role in government would be a firm enough admission of guilt to then lead to a fine under the law.  Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be the potential for 81 x €2,500 in fines there.  I wonder how many people were fined by the guards for being outside their county boundary at the beginning of the lockdown?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on August 28, 2020, 11:01:34 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 28, 2020, 10:55:06 AM
Quote from: five points on August 28, 2020, 10:30:03 AM
Quote from: andoireabu on August 28, 2020, 08:34:02 AM

Someone who goes into a shop without a mask or stays in a bar for 110 minutes shouldn't lose their job as an accountant or librarian or whatever, but they are liable for a €2,500 fine. 

Not true by the way. The max fine upon conviction is indeed €2,500 but the level of the fine and its imposition or otherwise in each case is up to a judge to decide based on the facts of the case.

Fair enough but should a judge decide, then the person in the shop without a mask could have to pay €2,500 no?

Yes, subject to appeals etc, but suffice to say that our laws are riddled with huge fines that are rarely if ever imposed in practice.

Quote
Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be the potential for 81 x €2,500 in fines there.
In theory, yes. In reality, no. Any Guard who dared serve Mrs Killilea, who is both mourning her husband and recovering from cancer, with a €2,500 fine for attending an event to which she was invited would get his ears burned by both a judge and his superiors.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 07:32:13 AM
Since when were being a millionaire and "not being on the breadline" the same thing??

When someone cited the hardship he has fallen on since he lost his ministerial job.

The less you contribute, the smarter you come across.

Who cited that? You're just making shit up now.

Painfully and pathetically transparent. Quite boring really.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 11:36:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 07:32:13 AM
Since when were being a millionaire and "not being on the breadline" the same thing??

When someone cited the hardship he has fallen on since he lost his ministerial job.

The less you contribute, the smarter you come across.

Who cited that? You're just making shit up now.

Painfully and pathetically transparent. Quite boring really.

Incorrect as per usual....

Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 09:06:36 AM

He was 100% fired from the ministerial job he was appointed to and from the deputy leadership.
He can't be fired from the position he was elected to by his constituents (for this anyway) until the next election. But it's a big reduction in salary and monumental reduction in future pension entitlements, so he's been hit hard.

Wouldn't be keen on Coveney going to Europe. Not too many really impressive TDS around, but he's definitely one of them.

Quote from: Hound on August 27, 2020, 01:46:03 PM

Saying he should resign his seat is completely disproportionate to the 'crime' committed. He's lost power, he's lost influence, he's lost a lot of money, but he hasn't actually committed a crime that should send him to the dole queue. Unless you think everyone who breaks govt advice on Covid should lose their jobs!

Quote from: MayoBuck on August 27, 2020, 04:18:35 PM
Losing a ministerial salary and associated pension entitlements is a lot of money, would you not agree?

I did tell you earlier that the more you contribute the more you out yourself as incredibly dim. Whether it is basic arithmetic or general comprehension, you seem to struggle which is why you seem to settle at sniping from the sideline rather than offering anything substantive.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 02:04:01 PM
Saying someone has lost money is not the same as saying someone "has fallen on hardship". Nobody had claimed Calleary is out on O'Connell Bridge begging for change. They've simply pointed out the fact that he has lost a fair whack as a result of his resignation.

I don't know why I bother as you clearly understand that simple fact (my 7 year old niece can process that if X-Y=Z, then Z<X for all positive values of X and Y so in pretty certain you can) but it wouldn't really suit your agenda, would it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on August 29, 2020, 09:23:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 02:04:01 PM
Saying someone has lost money is not the same as saying someone "has fallen on hardship". Nobody had claimed Calleary is out on O'Connell Bridge begging for change. They've simply pointed out the fact that he has lost a fair whack as a result of his resignation.

I don't know why I bother as you clearly understand that simple fact (my 7 year old niece can process that if X-Y=Z, then Z<X for all positive values of X and Y so in pretty certain you can) but it wouldn't really suit your agenda, would it?
Completely right. A waste of time engaging with him, as he's a moron. And worse, a liar. One for the ignore list.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:29:12 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 02:04:01 PM
Saying someone has lost money is not the same as saying someone "has fallen on hardship". Nobody had claimed Calleary is out on O'Connell Bridge begging for change. They've simply pointed out the fact that he has lost a fair whack as a result of his resignation.

I don't know why I bother as you clearly understand that simple fact (my 7 year old niece can process that if X-Y=Z, then Z<X for all positive values of X and Y so in pretty certain you can) but it wouldn't really suit your agenda, would it?

Calleary did wrong and lost his minister's job, quite rightly. Chaps on here trying to garner sympathy for a guy reverting back to a 100k+ job after extremely poor judgement and arrogance in a public office just shows the mentality of the FS.

The guy is a millionaire, born into money and still has an extremely well compensated job and massive pension entitlements. I don't feel one bit sorry for him and I think elected public representatives should be held to a higher account.

Hound crying for him just shoes the type of moron who cases a vote down there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on August 30, 2020, 10:28:20 AM
Quote from: Hound on August 29, 2020, 09:23:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 02:04:01 PM
Saying someone has lost money is not the same as saying someone "has fallen on hardship". Nobody had claimed Calleary is out on O'Connell Bridge begging for change. They've simply pointed out the fact that he has lost a fair whack as a result of his resignation.

I don't know why I bother as you clearly understand that simple fact (my 7 year old niece can process that if X-Y=Z, then Z<X for all positive values of X and Y so in pretty certain you can) but it wouldn't really suit your agenda, would it?
Completely right. A waste of time engaging with him, as he's a moron. And worse, a liar. One for the ignore list.
You'd miss a few good laughs every day if you put him/her on the ignore list.
Pure comedy gold ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on August 30, 2020, 11:31:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:29:12 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 02:04:01 PM
Saying someone has lost money is not the same as saying someone "has fallen on hardship". Nobody had claimed Calleary is out on O'Connell Bridge begging for change. They've simply pointed out the fact that he has lost a fair whack as a result of his resignation.

I don't know why I bother as you clearly understand that simple fact (my 7 year old niece can process that if X-Y=Z, then Z<X for all positive values of X and Y so in pretty certain you can) but it wouldn't really suit your agenda, would it?

Calleary did wrong and lost his minister's job, quite rightly. Chaps on here trying to garner sympathy for a guy reverting back to a 100k+ job after extremely poor judgement and arrogance in a public office just shows the mentality of the FS.

The guy is a millionaire, born into money and still has an extremely well compensated job and massive pension entitlements. I don't feel one bit sorry for him and I think elected public representatives should be held to a higher account.

Hound crying for him just shoes the type of moron who cases a vote down there.

Nobody is crying for him. Nobody is trying to garner sympathy. You're talking absolute shite and showing yourself to be an utter twat in doing so.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 30, 2020, 11:31:05 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:29:12 AM
Quote from: gallsman on August 28, 2020, 02:04:01 PM
Saying someone has lost money is not the same as saying someone "has fallen on hardship". Nobody had claimed Calleary is out on O'Connell Bridge begging for change. They've simply pointed out the fact that he has lost a fair whack as a result of his resignation.

I don't know why I bother as you clearly understand that simple fact (my 7 year old niece can process that if X-Y=Z, then Z<X for all positive values of X and Y so in pretty certain you can) but it wouldn't really suit your agenda, would it?

Calleary did wrong and lost his minister's job, quite rightly. Chaps on here trying to garner sympathy for a guy reverting back to a 100k+ job after extremely poor judgement and arrogance in a public office just shows the mentality of the FS.

The guy is a millionaire, born into money and still has an extremely well compensated job and massive pension entitlements. I don't feel one bit sorry for him and I think elected public representatives should be held to a higher account.

Hound crying for him just shoes the type of moron who cases a vote down there.

Nobody is crying for him. Nobody is trying to garner sympathy. You're talking absolute shite and showing yourself to be an utter twat in doing so.

Hound was trying to garner sympathy, decrying that he lost a load of money. He's a millionaire, we shouldn't be feeling any sympathy for him. And if you don't agree with that then ask yourself why is it you're here arguing it? The lady doth protest too much I think.

Don't be getting hissy now because you're getting found out talking through your hoop.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on October 01, 2020, 04:57:18 PM
It was a smart move for the Labour Party to get the contract from RTE as the first party of  opposition
That will keep all 6 Labour TDs busy. Kelly the party leader has got himself  the primetime gig on the Today program and O'Riordan on Drivetime.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on October 01, 2020, 05:22:48 PM
Quote from: Main Street on October 01, 2020, 04:57:18 PM
It was a smart move for the Labour Party to get the contract from RTE as the first party of  opposition
That will keep all 6 Labour TDs busy. Kelly the party leader has got himself  the primetime gig on the Today program and O'Riordan on Drivetime.

Wasn't RTE full of stickies at one point like Joe Duffy and Charlie Bird?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on October 01, 2020, 09:18:13 PM
So it turns out that judge's work mate doesn't think he did anything wrong, grand so
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2021, 05:24:30 PM
Golfgate resurfacing

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/0217/1197732-golf-galway-covid/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 17, 2021, 05:59:36 PM
Surely the bigger news in the Transistor under criminal investigation and barely a question asked by the free state press. Miriam O'Callaghan had him on last night and didn't see fit to ask him if she should stand aside until the case was concluded.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on July 09, 2021, 10:36:38 AM
For the politics nerds, here's a link to love tallying from the count centre in Dublin Bay South
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YiEnNrYEFWirEiW7mmgxxnpM-MVxGrxqfkIjPx71I_Y/htmlview?pru=AAABeq6g7WQ*s6b_V98qG5xa2buDXXzCJQ (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YiEnNrYEFWirEiW7mmgxxnpM-MVxGrxqfkIjPx71I_Y/htmlview?pru=AAABeq6g7WQ*s6b_V98qG5xa2buDXXzCJQ)

Fine Gael taking a bit of stick for a tweet last night, essentially scaremongering that working class areas were showing a high turnout
https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/1413236568475701248 (https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/1413236568475701248)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Armagh18 on July 09, 2021, 10:41:34 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 09, 2021, 10:36:38 AM
For the politics nerds, here's a link to love tallying from the count centre in Dublin Bay South
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YiEnNrYEFWirEiW7mmgxxnpM-MVxGrxqfkIjPx71I_Y/htmlview?pru=AAABeq6g7WQ*s6b_V98qG5xa2buDXXzCJQ (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YiEnNrYEFWirEiW7mmgxxnpM-MVxGrxqfkIjPx71I_Y/htmlview?pru=AAABeq6g7WQ*s6b_V98qG5xa2buDXXzCJQ)

Fine Gael taking a bit of stick for a tweet last night, essentially scaremongering that working class areas were showing a high turnout
https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/1413236568475701248 (https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/1413236568475701248)
They would actually make you sick to your stomach.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 11:13:27 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on July 09, 2021, 10:36:38 AM
For the politics nerds, here's a link to love tallying from the count centre in Dublin Bay South
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YiEnNrYEFWirEiW7mmgxxnpM-MVxGrxqfkIjPx71I_Y/htmlview?pru=AAABeq6g7WQ*s6b_V98qG5xa2buDXXzCJQ (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YiEnNrYEFWirEiW7mmgxxnpM-MVxGrxqfkIjPx71I_Y/htmlview?pru=AAABeq6g7WQ*s6b_V98qG5xa2buDXXzCJQ)

Bacik looks good here, she is getting a fair vote is all districts, whereas Boylan will get little enough in the tax paying districts. When the minor candidates are eliminated, Bacik will pick up a bit more and when Boylan is eliminated she will pass Geoghegan.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 09, 2021, 11:38:03 AM
Yep the Trinity College Senator would suit well heeled parts of Dublin.

This bellend at it again

https://m.independent.ie/videos/dublin-by-election-candidate-has-stand-off-with-gardai-after-refusing-to-wear-mask-40632823.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on July 09, 2021, 02:40:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 09, 2021, 11:38:03 AM
Yep the Trinity College Senator would suit well heeled parts of Dublin.

This bellend at it again

https://m.independent.ie/videos/dublin-by-election-candidate-has-stand-off-with-gardai-after-refusing-to-wear-mask-40632823.html

Bacik has burnt plenty of bridges in her time. No way in hell is she appealing to Fine Gael voters. I've never been her biggest fan (the university constituencies are a Victorian relic) but she's Labour through and through.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 09, 2021, 04:09:26 PM
FF are finished is all I know.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.

Sinn Féins makey upey colition of the left not working ?

Sinn Féin threw some weight behind Boland who has consistently underachieved
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 10:32:12 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.

Sinn Féins makey upey colition of the left not working ?

Sinn Féin threw some weight behind Boland who has consistently underachieved

FG had a moderate day. But they might have rather happy to see Labour come back into the picture, they were a relatively sane party FG that could do business with.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on July 10, 2021, 08:32:15 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bacik-wins-byelection-comfortably-as-most-voters-stay-at-home-1.4616352

The party's Dublin Bay South TD and director of elections, Jim O'Callaghan, acknowledged it was a very disappointing day for FF. He said the Government needs to be more radical in dealing with housing. "I don't think Fianna Fáil understand the scale of the problem in housing yet."

Asked about Taoiseach Micheál Martin's future and whether Mr Martin he should lead the party into the next general election, Mr O'Callaghan said "it depends on when the general election is. We'll have to think about it."
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 10, 2021, 09:54:52 AM
RTÉ delirious as a stereotypical Dublin 4 Smoked salmon Socialist wins a seat in Dublin 4 and surrounding well heeled territory.
And of course the old Trinners connection to boot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RedHand88 on July 10, 2021, 10:36:43 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 10, 2021, 09:54:52 AM
RTÉ delirious as a stereotypical Dublin 4 Smoked salmon Socialist wins a seat in Dublin 4 and surrounding well heeled territory.
And of course the old Trinners connection to boot.

Smoked salmon socialist. Will definitely be using that one again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on July 10, 2021, 11:07:51 AM
It was common term here some years ago😄
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 10, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.

Sinn Féins makey upey colition of the left not working ?

Sinn Féin threw some weight behind Boland who has consistently underachieved

That was a by election old bean. So despite your glee, SF likely to take a seat there next time out which I dont think will be too far away as FF are soon likely to have to find a reason to bail on the coalition or they face total destruction. And is Lynn Boylan not Boland. How did your gang of the religious right get on, will ye be taking a seat next time out?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2021, 12:45:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.

Sinn Féins makey upey colition of the left not working ?

Sinn Féin threw some weight behind Boland who has consistently underachieved

That was a by election old bean. So despite your glee, SF likely to take a seat there next time out which I dont think will be too far away as FF are soon likely to have to find a reason to bail on the coalition or they face total destruction. And is Lynn Boylan not Boland. How did your gang of the religious right get on, will ye be taking a seat next time out?

Haven't been at mass in years mucker. And aontú aren't on the right either.keep up. Boland has been a big flop
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: gallsman on July 10, 2021, 05:42:37 PM
Had never come across Justin Barrett being called "Litler" before. Magnificent stuff.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: JoG2 on July 10, 2021, 06:10:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2021, 12:45:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.

Sinn Féins makey upey colition of the left not working ?

Sinn Féin threw some weight behind Boland who has consistently underachieved

That was a by election old bean. So despite your glee, SF likely to take a seat there next time out which I dont think will be too far away as FF are soon likely to have to find a reason to bail on the coalition or they face total destruction. And is Lynn Boylan not Boland. How did your gang of the religious right get on, will ye be taking a seat next time out?

Haven't been at mass in years mucker. And aontú aren't on the right either.keep up. Boland has been a big flop

Is that binlid McCloskey still a member of the Aontú party? Sides with every right wing looney on the Island
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2021, 10:16:52 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on July 10, 2021, 06:10:17 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2021, 12:45:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.

Sinn Féins makey upey colition of the left not working ?

Sinn Féin threw some weight behind Boland who has consistently underachieved

That was a by election old bean. So despite your glee, SF likely to take a seat there next time out which I dont think will be too far away as FF are soon likely to have to find a reason to bail on the coalition or they face total destruction. And is Lynn Boylan not Boland. How did your gang of the religious right get on, will ye be taking a seat next time out?

Haven't been at mass in years mucker. And aontú aren't on the right either.keep up. Boland has been a big flop

Is that binlid McCloskey still a member of the Aontú party? Sides with every right wing looney on the Island

Naw Tobin got rid of her fir that reason "Parted Ways"
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: imtommygunn on July 10, 2021, 10:25:46 PM
That Dolores whatever you call her is some piece of work. Bonkers.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on July 10, 2021, 11:11:22 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 10, 2021, 12:45:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 10, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 09, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
As I said Bacik won. A lot of the SF votes did not transfer, whether that represents a dislike of Bacik or a lack of understanding of the electoral system, I am not sure.

Sinn Féins makey upey colition of the left not working ?

Sinn Féin threw some weight behind Boland who has consistently underachieved

That was a by election old bean. So despite your glee, SF likely to take a seat there next time out which I dont think will be too far away as FF are soon likely to have to find a reason to bail on the coalition or they face total destruction. And is Lynn Boylan not Boland. How did your gang of the religious right get on, will ye be taking a seat next time out?

Haven't been at mass in years mucker. And aontú aren't on the right either.keep up. Boland has been a big flop

They are on the right. But we can agree to disagree, how'd they poll yesterday?