Ashers cake controversy.

Started by T Fearon, November 07, 2014, 06:36:39 PM

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Fiodoir Ard Mhacha

Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...
"Something wrong with your eyes?....
Yes, they're sensitive to questions!"

Insane Bolt

Quote from: BennyCake on October 10, 2018, 03:24:41 PM
By the way, have Sesame Street declared that bert and ernie are in fact gay? If not, then they should sue yer man for character assassination

Apparently Bert and Ernie are fully paid up members of the UDP......not the DUP😜

armaghniac

Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor Éire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Main Street

#543
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on October 10, 2018, 07:15:43 PM
I always thought this was pretty clear cut.

Refusing to serve someone for being gay is illegal.

Refusing to produce a cake supporting changing a particular law, not illegal.

Am I missing something?

/Jim.
It's that simple  and now that it has been explained by the supreme court judges you'd wonder why it took so long. I was aware that an individual employee  could conscientiously object to work on such a political/social slogan without censure from the employer but I wasn't too sure about the bakery as a business entity having the civil right to conscientiously object based on the same objections.

BennyCake

Quote from: armaghniac on October 10, 2018, 07:56:18 PM
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor Éire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

Yup, my thinking too

trileacman

I've studied this a bit further and had another thought.

Say you work for Ashers and someone comes in and orders a "leave the EU" cake, can you, as an employee, refuse to bake the cake at the owners request on the grounds it's objectionable to your political beliefs? If you get fired for your stance do you then have grounds for unfair dismissal?
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tonto1888

Quote from: armaghniac on October 10, 2018, 07:56:18 PM
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor Éire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

What exactly is sordid about it?

David McKeown

It's definitely not simple. The Supreme Court overturned the lower courts on the basis that they had to wide a definition for dissociable discrimination (which I've incorrectly referred to above as indirect discrimination). Particularly in this instance where the Supreme Court held people who are not gay may request such a slogan on a cake in order to support friends or family who are. In which case you can't say that those wanting such a slogan on a cake will always or almost always be members of protected class. Annoyingly though the court stopped well short of explaining exactly how wide the definition should be using a very narrow definition as an example as opposed to an explanation. To me that begs the question what if Mr Lee has requested a picture of himself with the words "proud to be gay". It's not clear to me from the judgement if a refusal by Ashers to make such a cake would have been discriminatory.

This is further compounded by the judgement suggesting the definition of dissociable descrimination may be wider for political opinion but again failing to define its width.

Finally the judgement discussed how Ashers may not have breached discrimination legislation relating to political opinion because of their own convention rights but it remains silent on whether or not the same protections would have been available had they considered discrimination legislation relating to sexual orientation which is made against a different legislative framework.

All in all I have to say I thought it was a particularly interesting case with potentially very wide ramifications.

After reading it I'm still stuck on the point I made near the start of this thread.

Refusing to provide a service to someone simply because they are a member of a protected class is wrong.

Refusing to make or sell a product but of the nature of that product is not. For example halal food.

Refusing to provide a service that is almost exclusively only going to be requested by members of a protected class is still somewhat of a grey area.

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Main Street

Quote from: hardstation on October 10, 2018, 09:19:27 PM
Quote from: trileacman on October 10, 2018, 09:14:14 PM
I've studied this a bit further and had another thought.

Say you work for Ashers and someone comes in and orders a "leave the EU" cake, can you, as an employee, refuse to bake the cake at the owners request on the grounds it's objectionable to your political beliefs? If you get fired for your stance do you then have grounds for unfair dismissal?
You didn't adhere to company policy. We tell you what to bake, with our ingredients, on our time and with our name stamped on the box. That's what we pay you to do. Nothing else.
The issue is not as black and white as the simplistic scenario you paint. If the employee is well known to be an avowed remainer and the employer is known to be supporting brexit,  then what's your interpretation? perhaps a deliberate attempt to provoke?
to humiliate?  that's discrimination, both are enough grounds to reinstate the employee or/and exact damages.

This cake slogan was not just an innocent approach, it was a deliberate attempt to provoke people who were already well known to hold deep beliefs to the contrary.

Franko

Quote from: David McKeown on October 10, 2018, 10:02:46 PM
It's definitely not simple. The Supreme Court overturned the lower courts on the basis that they had to wide a definition for dissociable discrimination (which I've incorrectly referred to above as indirect discrimination). Particularly in this instance where the Supreme Court held people who are not gay may request such a slogan on a cake in order to support friends or family who are. In which case you can't say that those wanting such a slogan on a cake will always or almost always be members of protected class. Annoyingly though the court stopped well short of explaining exactly how wide the definition should be using a very narrow definition as an example as opposed to an explanation. To me that begs the question what if Mr Lee has requested a picture of himself with the words "proud to be gay". It's not clear to me from the judgement if a refusal by Ashers to make such a cake would have been discriminatory.

This is further compounded by the judgement suggesting the definition of dissociable descrimination may be wider for political opinion but again failing to define its width.

Finally the judgement discussed how Ashers may not have breached discrimination legislation relating to political opinion because of their own convention rights but it remains silent on whether or not the same protections would have been available had they considered discrimination legislation relating to sexual orientation which is made against a different legislative framework.

All in all I have to say I thought it was a particularly interesting case with potentially very wide ramifications.

After reading it I'm still stuck on the point I made near the start of this thread.

Refusing to provide a service to someone simply because they are a member of a protected class is wrong.

Refusing to make or sell a product but of the nature of that product is not. For example halal food.

Refusing to provide a service that is almost exclusively only going to be requested by members of a protected class is still somewhat of a grey area.

Not to be picky here but surely halal food would fall squarely into the third category also?

PS.  Big fan of your work on this site David.  Your posts are always well reasoned and fact based, which is a breath of fresh air.

Gold

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on October 10, 2018, 07:17:40 PM
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness
"Cheeky Charlie McKenna..."

armaghniac

Quote from: Gold on October 10, 2018, 11:47:51 PM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on October 10, 2018, 07:17:40 PM
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness

While this thread seems to be regarded as an opportunity for some to engage in gratuitous insults of people, this case has nothing to do with God or the belief in same. 

This was a deliberate attempt to get people to endorse the political campaign of their opponents and that is the issue.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

HiMucker

Quote from: armaghniac on October 11, 2018, 01:25:23 AM
Quote from: Gold on October 10, 2018, 11:47:51 PM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on October 10, 2018, 07:17:40 PM
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness

While this thread seems to be regarded as an opportunity for some to engage in gratuitous insults of people, this case has nothing to do with God or the belief in same. 

This was a deliberate attempt to get people to endorse the political campaign of their opponents and that is the issue.
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....

tonto1888

Quote from: HiMucker on October 11, 2018, 09:01:46 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 11, 2018, 01:25:23 AM
Quote from: Gold on October 10, 2018, 11:47:51 PM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on October 10, 2018, 07:17:40 PM
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness

While this thread seems to be regarded as an opportunity for some to engage in gratuitous insults of people, this case has nothing to do with God or the belief in same. 

This was a deliberate attempt to get people to endorse the political campaign of their opponents and that is the issue.
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....

Took the words out of my mouth

johnnycool

Quote from: armaghniac on October 10, 2018, 07:56:18 PM
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor Éire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

But is the converse of that also true?

We use a print company that also prints leaflets for the DUP.

Am I to discern from the fact that because they print DUP party literature that they also have that political mindset and I should pull my business from them in protest?