Israel Attack Humanitarian Ship, 10 men killed

[Ulick]

from a realpolitik perspective this is going to backfire badly in the international community. Israel relies on the US almost completely and the article in the nytimes http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01policy.html?hpw is actually a reasonable reflection of the position in which Obama administration finds itself with regard to its own constituents. With Mitchell's initiative due to kick off so soon- Gaza is now back in the spotlight and a tough stance to defend.
From the Israeli internal political perspective, in order to court public opinion this was almost inevitable, a fact that seems to be "justifiable".

If you were interested in the pure political capital  here what if you step back for a bit and ask did anyone involved in the planning of this expedition expect that this group would make it to gaza and successfully distribute supplies? What chance of success did they give it- and was this made clear to all onboard? If you were organizing this trip and this was your cause, was it better to succeed or fail in this fashion? Does the international outcry justify the lives lost and the others put at risk?

Israel's position on Gaza is disgraceful personally I wonder if there were better ways of drawing attention to tht fact...

I just wonder if the 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza strip have the space to step back and consider the RealPolitik of the situation.

From listening to Mairead Maguire on the radio this morning they calculated a 1 in 5 chance of getting through and they were all aware of this. Success for them is about breaking the blockade and showing solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza, not necessarily on the amount of aid they manage to get through. 

[Main Street]

What does anyone expect from Obama?  The US president will always be a puppet of the power-brokers in the US most of whom are Jewish!

I can't help but think that we have this the wrong way round. Israel is a puppet of the US and the West in general. Nobody could give a f**k about the Jewish right to their own State or the Zionist wackos. Israel is one big Embassy and Military Base slap bang in the middle of one of the wealthiest parts of the world. It is mantained to suit the west not to suit the Jews.

That is naive. No Israeli government would ever be the same sort of altar boy that the British Blair government seemed to be to the US Bush government. The Jewish superiority complex is just too powerful a factor to discount.
Second, no Israeli government would be inclined to gamble with the lives of Jewish Israeli citizens to the extent that you are suggesting.

[heganboy]

Success for them is about breaking the blockade and showing solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza.

actually success is having the blockade broken- doesn't matter how or by whom- which was kind of my point

if success was 1 in 5 what was people killed 4 in 5? who decides if those are appropriate risks?

[Maiden1]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/7660232/Frankie-Boyle-letter-about-BBC-in-full.html

[Ulick]

Success for them is about breaking the blockade and showing solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza.

actually success is having the blockade broken- doesn't matter how or by whom- which was kind of my point

if success was 1 in 5 what was people killed 4 in 5? who decides if those are appropriate risks?

No, 4 in 5 chance they wouldn't be allowed through. I don't think anyone believed the even the US-backed Israeli military would open up on unarmed non-Palestinians civilians - more fool them, eh?

[Zapatista]

That is naive. No Israeli government would ever be the same sort of altar boy that the British Blair government seemed to be to the US Bush government. The Jewish superiority complex is just too powerful a factor to discount.
Second, no Israeli government would be inclined to gamble with the lives of Jewish Israeli citizens to the extent that you are suggesting.

Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more. Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to.

If it's a case that their is a huge Jewish lobby in the US backed by the right wing Christian Lobby and almost every other pressure group in the US then it strengthens my point. These are US citizens (as opposed to Israeli Jews) with interests in Israel which they are protecting and would gamble the lives of every Arab, Jew and Christian in the middle East if they felt the need. We can look to the US and see Obama if we want but that isn't all that's there.

[johnneycool]

Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more. Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to.

Let them you mean.

[Zapatista]

Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more. Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to.

Let them you mean.

Ooh swerve ball

[seafoid]

It doesn't make sense what the Israelis did here.  They have an extremely well oiled propaganda machine and usually have a they started it argument before they go in all guns blazing, even if for all the thousands of rockets they claim are being fired at Israel none ever seem to hit a built up area (considering how much of Israel is a built up area).  Do the Israelis have a bigger strategy or are they just saying now 'F&*k you all we will do what we want and we don't care about PR exercises or how it looks anymore'.

Israel had to stop those ships from getting to Gaza and unloading their cargos. It is a ghetto that is being maintained by Israel and they want it kept that way. It is the beginning of the end for the Israeli occupation if those shops are allowed in, so they were stopped.

Israel has backed itself into a corner over Gaza. The siege punishes the people rather than Hamas and is a failure. Israel can't back down because it has no plan B. When the siege eventually collapses Hamas win a massive PR boost along the lines of what happened when Hezbollah kicked Israel out of Lebanon in 2000.  Ha'aretz wrote yesterday that the Israeli people support the punishment of the people of Gaza because of the hostage Shalit. It's like something out of WW2. Israel can only lose in this case.  Apartheid is going nowhere.

[Main Street]

Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more.

Danger? most Israelis would differ in the interpretation of where danger lurks.
Israelis are aware of the  1.000 or so rockets fired recently enough by the Hezbullah into israeli civilian areas.
Some people want to blame Israel simply because they have acquired the requisite strength to defend itself. That type of reasoning does not impress me, nor does it impress Israelis. Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.

Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to

That utter bull. Are you serious?
What on earth leads to believe that nonsense?
You are really not in tune with the the Israeli government policy or mindset. Did you see Israel get involved in the Gulf wars?
You also need to brush up on Israel military strategy. They are not stupid, when it comes to battle they are one of the most effective military strategists on the planet and certainly rolling into declaring war against Iran would be regarded as extreme folly. The nuclear deterrent is deemed sufficient.
Israel military strategy is to avoid their own casualties, both military and citizen, always has been. However their military methods inflict disproportionate damage and are oft ruthless.

[Hardy]

Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more.

Danger? most Israelis would differ in the interpretation of where danger lurks.
Israelis are aware of the  1.000 or so rockets fired recently enough by the Hezbullah into israeli civilian areas.
Some people want to blame Israel simply because they have acquired the requisite strength to defend itself. That type of reasoning does not impress me, nor does it impress Israelis. Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.

Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to

That utter bull. Are you serious?
What on earth leads to believe that nonsense?

Perhaps their previous form?

[Ulick]

Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.

Why then do they keep electing even more hard-line governments every time they go to the polls?

[Ulick]

Gaza aid flotilla activists talk of beatings, electric shocks

By Elena Becatoros, Kirsten Grieshaber, The Associated Press

Last Updated: June 1, 2010 8:40am


BERLIN — Pro-Palestinian activists returning to Europe said Israeli commandos used stun guns on passengers and beat them during the deadly raid on an aid flotilla that was trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza. One woman said her aid ship "turned into a lake of blood."

Five Germans, six Greeks and several others — among them a Turkish woman and her 1-year-old baby — were released Tuesday, but Israel barred access to hundreds of other activists seized during the raid Monday that killed at least nine people and wounded dozens.

Israel sent commandos onto six ships carrying nearly 700 activists, and there have been conflicting accounts of what happened during the assault. Most of those killed were aboard the Turkish-flagged ship Mavi Marmara.

Norman Paech, a former member of Germany's Left Party who was aboard the Marmara, said the ship was surrounded by small Israeli assault boats about 4:30 a.m. Monday morning.

"Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from helicopters above us dropped down on board," Paech said. "The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were extremely brutal."

The Israeli government says its soldiers were defending themselves, and has released video showing soldiers in riot gear being struck by activists with sticks — and one soldier appears to have been shoved into the water. Israel says the activists were armed with metal rods, knives, slingshots and two pistols snatched from the troops.

When asked about the Israeli video, Paech said he only saw three activists resisting.

"They had no knives, no axes, only sticks that they used to defend themselves," Paech said at a news conference in Berlin at the Reichstag, where the lower house of parliament meets, after he and four other Germans returned Tuesday from Tel Aviv.

Still, he said, he could "not rule out" that others used weapons somewhere else on the boat.

Matthias Jochheim, a German doctor on board the Marmara, said he saw four dead activists who had been killed by gunshots.

"There were at least another 50 injured and an Egyptian doctor told me that he saw a fifth dead activist," said Jochheim, who helped attend to the wounded.

Turkey said four Turkish citizens were confirmed dead and another five dead were also believed to be Turks, although Israeli authorities were still trying to confirm their nationalities.

Jochheim said most victims, including the injured, seemed to be Turkish activists who had hired the Marmara and were on deck when Israeli soldiers boarded.

German Left Party lawmaker Inge Hoeger, who was also on the Marmara, condemned the raid as a "war crime."

"We felt like we were in the middle of a war, like we'd been kidnapped," said Hoeger. "What the Israelis did is a violation of international law."

Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin told reporters in Istanbul that she and her baby son were hiding in her cabin's bathroom on the Mavi Marmara when the Israeli soldiers rappelled onto the ship.

"The ship turned into a lake of blood," Cetin said.

"I was one of the first victims to be released because I had a child," she told reporters, but "they confiscated everything, our telephones, laptops are all gone."

She returned home after Israeli officials warned that jail would be too harsh for her baby. Her husband — the ship's engineer — was still being held by Israeli authorities.

"We were aware of the possible danger" in joining the trip, Cetin said. "But there are thousands of babies in Gaza. If we had reached Gaza, we would have played with them and taken them food."

Some 400 Turkish activists were on the six-ship flotilla, along with more than 30 Greeks and people from some 20 other nations including Germany, the U.S., France, Sweden and Russia.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used," said Greek activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the ship Sfendoni.

Gielalis, who also returned home Tuesday, said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel and a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye by Israeli soldiers.

"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he told reporters.

German lawmaker Hoeger said the women aboard the Marmara were locked into a big room below deck during the raid — but it was not clear if Israeli soldiers or activists had locked them away.

"Later, the Israeli soldiers let us go outside, one by one," Hoeger recalled. "We were checked and our personal belongings were taken away. Then we were handcuffed with cable retainers and brought to the upper deck."

"They were obviously looking for weapons. They raided and slashed all the suitcases of all passengers and everything was all over the place," Hoeger said.

Aris Papadokostopoulos, who was aboard the ship Free Mediterranean that carried mainly Greek and Swedish activists, said the flotilla was about 80 miles (130 kilometres) off the coast of Gaza in international waters when the raid occurred.

"The Turkish ship was in front of us ... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.

Aboard the other boats, he said, commandos beat activists, but nobody was gravely injured. He said no one resisted the Israeli soldiers who boarded the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building materials and medicine.

"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks," he said.

Activists from Greece and Germany said the Israeli Army demanded that they sign deportation papers and those who refused were taken on buses to prisons in the Negev Desert.

Israeli officials say about 50 of the 679 activists aboard the flotilla were taken to Israel's international airport for deportation. The others, they said, have refused to identify themselves and will remain in detention in a prison in southern Israel.

Civil engineer Thanassis Petrogiannis said he had joined the flotilla to help rebuild destroyed Palestinian homes. He said while in Israeli custody, authorities had demanded he sign a paper written in Hebrew. He refused and was eventually given another document that he signed.

"Everyone who didn't sign is in jail," he said.

The German Foreign Office said it was still trying to track down six citizens and Greece was demanding that the other Greek citizens still in custody be repatriated as soon as possible.

Turkey was sending three ambulance planes to Israel to pick up 20 more Turkish activists who were wounded in the operation.

[Ulick]

Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists
First eyewitness accounts of raid contradict version put out by Israeli officials

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

[Zapatista]

Danger? most Israelis would differ in the interpretation of where danger lurks.
Israelis are aware of the  1.000 or so rockets fired recently enough by the Hezbullah into israeli civilian areas.
Some people want to blame Israel simply because they have acquired the requisite strength to defend itself. That type of reasoning does not impress me, nor does it impress Israelis. Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.

I don't give a f**k who it is impressing. My problem is not with Israel defending themselevs but with actions like boarding a boat with humanitarian aid and civilians on board and shooting them dead. My problem is that in order to punish Hamas Israel are willing to kill the entire population of Gaza.

That utter bull. Are you serious?
What on earth leads to believe that nonsense?
You are really not in tune with the the Israeli government policy or mindset. Did you see Israel get involved in the Gulf wars?
You also need to brush up on Israel military strategy. They are not stupid, when it comes to battle they are one of the most effective military strategists on the planet and certainly rolling into declaring war against Iran would be regarded as extreme folly. The nuclear deterrent is deemed sufficient.
Israel military strategy is to avoid their own casualties, both military and citizen, always has been. However their military methods inflict disproportionate damage and are oft ruthless.

No I'm not in tune with the mindset of the Israeli Government. As I have said before I believe Israel as a state to be a puppet of the West and the US in particular.

Israel in the Gulf war http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Gulf_War.html all at the request of the US.

The Nuclear deterrent was sufficient untill Iran started moving towards Nuclear capability. If Israel want to return to the Nuclear deterrent then the will obviously need to be certain Iran won't achieve it. How do you think they might go about that?

Israel avoid their own casulties as they are fighting people with hand held rocket devices and stones while they have the most modern equipment on the planwet at their disposal.