Quinn Insurance in Administration

[LeoMc]

Would it not make sense to back off the Quinns a bit. Let them try to rebuild their business and get people back in work. Lets face it. The £££ is gone and never to be returned. The quinns along with a lot of other people made foolish decisions in the boom and have lost a lot but they are people that are experienced in building business and creating jobs. Let them get back at it I say.

I think this is part of the problem, the £££ were continuing to be moved around after the Judge called a stop. It makes the Quinns look like they are pulling a fast one.

[LeoMc]

Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties? - people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think this is the sticking point, Does Quinn believe they weren't secured but the bank knew they were fecked and then changed the loans to secured against Quinn group assets?

Did the other members of the golden circle cough up?

7 out of 10 are in NAMA.

[supersarsfields]

But were the maple ten not only liable for 25% of their Loans? I think I remember reading something about that.

I'll go have a look.

[oakleafgael]

Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think the issue is around the bit highlighted. My understanding* s as follows:
Quinn owned 3-5% of Anglo and started to buy CFD's (commitments to buy shares) to increase his holding without having to signify his intent. Perfectly legal and providing the shares have gone up in value can be a way to finance your purchase (bit like a 100% mortgage).
By the time he had reached a point where he owned or was committed to 27-28% the CFD's were coming due and the share price was dropping meaning he would not be able to meet his obligation.
Anglo lent him the money to cover this debt and lent €450m to a few of their big clients (the Maple 10) to purchase Anglo shares to try to stabilise the share price.

This is where it gets murky.
There is dispute over what the loans to SQ were against as the shares would not cover it. SQ says the debts were against himself and the Quinn group adn has accepted being made bankrupt and losing his company. Anglo say the debts were against Quinn family assets also. I have heard allegations that the loan documents were doctored though not from a reliable source. This should eventually come out.

The Anglo loans to stabilise the share price are 100% illegal and there will be debate about how much SQ was aware of what was going on there.Seanie Fitz and David Dunne could probably answer this one.

Another element to muddy the waters still further were the "Directors loans" aka the cooking of the books being performed by Anglo in the preceding years. This would have seen a swing of approx 87m in the Anglo books. Would this have been enough to put SQ off investing in the first place?

This is my understanding based on what IO have read and heard and so I am open to correction/ further education.

I think at this stage its well known that there is evidence that the original loan documents where altered by Anglo after signing to change the purpose of the loan to working capital for the Quinn Group.

[seafoid]

Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties? - people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think this is the sticking point, Does Quinn believe they weren't secured but the bank knew they were fecked and then changed the loans to secured against Quinn group assets?

Did the other members of the golden circle cough up?

7 out of 10 are in NAMA.

The other GC members were smarter than the Quinns IMO. They reacted faster to the tsunami.
But they should all be wrung dry of money.

[supersarsfields]

But were the maple ten not only liable for 25% of their Loans? I think I remember reading something about that.

I'll go have a look.

I knew there was something about only paying back a smaller %.

<sup>The Maple 10

Nine of the Maple 10 are now clients of Nama, with the exception of Paddy McKillen. The Maple 10 only had to repay 25 per cent each of the €451m they borrowed in total. Members of the Maple 10 include some of Nama's biggest clients such as Joe O'Reilly, the owner of the Dundrum shopping centre, and Gerry Gannon, the developer. It was a considerable sore point for Quinn when he found out afterwards he was expected to repay 100 per cent of his borrowings, while the Maple 10 had a softer deal. Meanwhile, the Maple 10, who are accused of no wrongdoing, were furious at the bank for leaving them with a bill they believe should have been paid by Quinn.</sup>

[trileacman]

Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.

And after the matter the bookies should change the nature of the bet and pursue them for their car.

[winghalfun]

- Quinn Invested money buying CFDs
- Share price dropped causing a call on the CFD position
- Quinn met with anglo and explained that he was unable to meet the CFD call.
- Decision was made between Anglo, SQ and maple ten to take loans from Anglo to support the call on CFDs
- Anglo share price continued to drop and was nationalised by the State
- Quinn Insurance go into Administration
- Anglo move to take over Quinn Group to recoup loans (Should be pointed out that loan repayments were still being met at this stage)
- Anglo realise they slipped up over a number of Foreign assets where Quinns were still able to control
- Quinns make attempt to run large cases against Anglo loans. Anglo oppose
- Quinn fight anglo over the assets declaring that huge part of the debt was "Illegal"
-  Quinn Family get legal standing by the Irish courts to run the case against anglo on the basis of share support.
- Anglo take out injunctions stopping Quinns moving certain assets within the property portfolio
- Quinns continue to move assets
- Anglo get contempt proceedings done against Quinns
- Anglo senior management get charged with Share support
- Anglo and Quinn still at loggerhead over assets

That's my attempt. And I'm trying to be as unbias as possible there. So if anyone else has steps that they feel I've missed or anything, it's not intentionally and let me know.

Yes. I have a question.
Is there any point in that sequence of events that Sean Quinn or his advisors could have went - f**K , this is going tits up. Lets cut our losses and get out of here?

[trileacman]

- Quinn Invested money buying CFDs
- Share price dropped causing a call on the CFD position
- Quinn met with anglo and explained that he was unable to meet the CFD call.
- Decision was made between Anglo, SQ and maple ten to take loans from Anglo to support the call on CFDs
- Anglo share price continued to drop and was nationalised by the State
- Quinn Insurance go into Administration
- Anglo move to take over Quinn Group to recoup loans (Should be pointed out that loan repayments were still being met at this stage)
- Anglo realise they slipped up over a number of Foreign assets where Quinns were still able to control
- Quinns make attempt to run large cases against Anglo loans. Anglo oppose
- Quinn fight anglo over the assets declaring that huge part of the debt was "Illegal"
-  Quinn Family get legal standing by the Irish courts to run the case against anglo on the basis of share support.
- Anglo take out injunctions stopping Quinns moving certain assets within the property portfolio
- Quinns continue to move assets
- Anglo get contempt proceedings done against Quinns
- Anglo senior management get charged with Share support
- Anglo and Quinn still at loggerhead over assets

That's my attempt. And I'm trying to be as unbias as possible there. So if anyone else has steps that they feel I've missed or anything, it's not intentionally and let me know.

Yes. I have a question.
Is there any point in that sequence of events that Sean Quinn or his advisors could have went - f**K , this is going tits up. Lets cut our losses and get out of here?

Yeah after the CFD's went South he should have walked away, went double or nothing on it and lost.

[boojangles]

For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

[deiseach]

I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

Say it ain't so!

[boojangles]

I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

Say it ain't so!

I never thought I'd see the day.

[Rossfan]

For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

When a Bank tries to get back some of the money they're owed to save the taxpayer any one that tries to stop that be they Quinns,O'Rourkes or any one else are nothing but total cnuts and traitors to their Country.

[Hardy]

For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

There's a finite amount of estimation in the universe, so it's important for the conversation of estimation to record that he's gone down in mine.

[seafoid]

For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

Kernan and O'Rourke both lost large amounts of money riding the Tiger.
Very disappointing to see Boylan in there saluting Quinn while disabled kids in Meath are having their funding cut because of Quinn.  It's not Mickey Harte's jurisdiction and HMG sponsors the wee 6 so he can afford to be very generous in his support.