Quinn Insurance in Administration

[sammymaguire]

As this has run on and on, I've forgotten the question. 

The Rally in Ballyconnell was in support of Sean Quinn.  Support in what?  In the bit from Mickey Harte, he was talking about a leaflet that gives the true story. Does anyone have a copy of this leaflet?

That's just my take on it though and I have to make it clear that my views do not represent the Trillick GAA, Tyrone GAA or the national GAA body. I am not expressing the opinion for all members of the UFU or Irvinestown credit union. I would ask the media not to protray the St Scires class of 1995 in a negative light either.

quality!!      

Never has this quote from John Paul Getty been more appropriate.
"If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."

Because they shouldn't have given it to you in the first place!!! 

[rrhf]

I would love to see a rally like this as support on one hand yes for Sean Quinn undoubtedly, but also the start of a mobilisation movement against the government mismanagement of the banking problems, the lack of legal action on those responsible for running the banks into insolvency and the lack of responsibility taken on the part of the Banking and Government for their shady alliance which has put the the fallout onto the taxpayer, business people, property developers etc. 

[deiseach]

I would love to see a rally like this as support on one hand yes for Sean Quinn undoubtedly, but also the start of a mobilisation movement against the government mismanagement of the banking problems, the lack of legal action on those responsible for running the banks into insolvency and the lack of responsibility taken on the part of the Banking and Government for their shady alliance which has put the the fallout onto the taxpayer, business people, property developers etc.

Maybe the organisers of the rally for Seán Quinn could set the ball rolling, they've got a ready-made constituency. I'm sure Mickey et al would only be too delighted to lend their (purely personal, of course) support for such a principled stand

[supersarsfields]

Just in the nature of balance here's a nice article with quotes from a GAA person slamming SQ support.

http://www.herald.ie/news/gaa-celebs-slammed-for-backing-quinn-as-4000-turn-out-for-rally-3183936.html

Now I'm a Quinn supporter so I don't agree with his views. But he's entitled to have them. And I don't take it as representative of the GAA that everyone is anti-Quinn just because of his comments.

Very true. However there is a difference between the GAA or a unit of it taking a stance on the matter which on either side no one is doing (other than Teemore as far as I know) with individual members free to make up their own minds, and the organisers of a rally ensuring that a significant make up of high-profile supporters are prominent figures within the GAA. Whatever the protestations and the motivations of those people in question, the ensuring scene is one of "If it walks like a duck, and quack likes a duck..." then it'll leave an impression in some peoples minds. It isn't possible to square together accusing those that the likes of Kernan, Boylan, Harte, O'Rourke etc. should not have been there because they were "GAA men" (which I am sure in any case would make up a large amount of the crowd there anyway), but also ignore the bleedin' obvious. I wasn't born yesterday. I am of the mindset that those I have mentioned spoke in their own personal capacity and made no attempt to represent anyone else other than themselves, but I just have a combination of being cynical and sick & tired of elements of the GAA being used by others for their own gain. The whole thing reeks of the Westminster election in 2001 in West Tyrone where both the SDLP and Sinn Fein made deliberate courting attempts at the GAA in the area to win votes. The Quinn case is a civil matter, and neither those who are supportive of Sean Quinn and those who aren't should be attempting to use the GAA to bolster their case either directly or indirectly - there are enough divisions within the association without trying to create more of them.

The people were prob approached because of their higher profile that the normal man in the street, and because all had have been supporters of the Quinns. I don't disagree on that. That's a standard practice when you're trying to get you're voice heard.
But each was making their stance of their own back, without GAA representation. Just because some people don't like that doesn't mean they should have refused to take part. Nor should people within the GAA have put pressure not to attend. The fact is that these people agree with the stance of the Quinns. The fact that they are members of the GAA shouldn't prevent them from demonstrating that support.

[orangeman]

A judge at Dublin Commercial Court has expressed concern about a missing 32m euros in rental income from a Moscow property owned by Sean Quinn's family.

The former Anglo Irish Bank is looking to retrieve the money.

Judge Peter Kelly also reduced the monthly allowance for the Quinn children.

They had been allowed 2,000 euros each per week, but this was reduced to a monthly combined total of just over 30,000 euros.

[supersarsfields]

In fairness they would be looking to bolster the impact of the rally so would be looking to public figures. The Quinn family's contacts within the GAA meant they were an obvious option. The local representatives are lacking a spine to keep them upright, prefering to whisper support without taking any public action.

[armaghniac]

Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

[Rossfan]

A judge at Dublin Commercial Court has expressed concern about a missing 32m euros in rental income from a Moscow property owned by Sean Quinn's family.

The former Anglo Irish Bank is looking to retrieve the money.

Judge Peter Kelly also reduced the monthly allowance for the Quinn children.

They had been allowed 2,000 euros each per week, but this was reduced to a monthly combined total of just over 30,000 euros.

I hope the poor put upon unfairly treated devils can manage to survive.
The cnuts should be allowed €188 per week each  , means tested of course.

[johnneycool]

Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties? - people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think this is the sticking point, Does Quinn believe they weren't secured but the bank knew they were fecked and then changed the loans to secured against Quinn group assets?

Did the other members of the golden circle cough up?

[EC Unique]

Would it not make sense to back off the Quinns a bit. Let them try to rebuild their business and get people back in work. Lets face it. The £££ is gone and never to be returned. The quinns along with a lot of other people made foolish decisions in the boom and have lost a lot but they are people that are experienced in building business and creating jobs. Let them get back at it I say.

[seafoid]

Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.

[supersarsfields]

Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I'll try Armaghniac, but it's confusing.

- Quinn Invested money buying CFDs
- Share price dropped causing a call on the CFD position
- Quinn met with anglo and explained that he was unable to meet the CFD call.
- Decision was made between Anglo, SQ and maple ten to take loans from Anglo to support the call on CFDs
- Anglo share price continued to drop and was nationalised by the State
- Quinn Insurance go into Administration
- Anglo move to take over Quinn Group to recoup loans (Should be pointed out that loan repayments were still being met at this stage)
- Anglo realise they slipped up over a number of Foreign assets where Quinns were still able to control
- Quinns make attempt to run large cases against Anglo loans. Anglo oppose
- Quinn fight anglo over the assets declaring that huge part of the debt was "Illegal"
-  Quinn Family get legal standing by the Irish courts to run the case against anglo on the basis of share support.
- Anglo take out injunctions stopping Quinns moving certain assets within the property portfolio
- Quinns continue to move assets
- Anglo get contempt proceedings done against Quinns
- Anglo senior management get charged with Share support
- Anglo and Quinn still at loggerhead over assets

That's my attempt. And I'm trying to be as unbias as possible there. So if anyone else has steps that they feel I've missed or anything, it's not intentionally and let me know.

[deiseach]

Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.

But not if they're from the Border area.

[LeoMc]

Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think the issue is around the bit highlighted. My understanding* s as follows:
Quinn owned 3-5% of Anglo and started to buy CFD's (commitments to buy shares) to increase his holding without having to signify his intent. Perfectly legal and providing the shares have gone up in value can be a way to finance your purchase (bit like a 100% mortgage).
By the time he had reached a point where he owned or was committed to 27-28% the CFD's were coming due and the share price was dropping meaning he would not be able to meet his obligation.
Anglo lent him the money to cover this debt and lent €450m to a few of their big clients (the Maple 10) to purchase Anglo shares to try to stabilise the share price.

This is where it gets murky.
There is dispute over what the loans to SQ were against as the shares would not cover it. SQ says the debts were against himself and the Quinn group adn has accepted being made bankrupt and losing his company. Anglo say the debts were against Quinn family assets also. I have heard allegations that the loan documents were doctored though not from a reliable source. This should eventually come out.

The Anglo loans to stabilise the share price are 100% illegal and there will be debate about how much SQ was aware of what was going on there.Seanie Fitz and David Dunne could probably answer this one.

Another element to muddy the waters still further were the "Directors loans" aka the cooking of the books being performed by Anglo in the preceding years. This would have seen a swing of approx 87m in the Anglo books. Would this have been enough to put SQ off investing in the first place?

This is my understanding based on what IO have read and heard and so I am open to correction/ further education.

[orangeman]

Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.

But not if they're from the Border area.

And in particular if they're one of the Quinns, ever worked for the Quinns or feel the slightest bit of sympatht for the Quinns. Anyone who bought Blue circle instead of the white Quinn bag gets their do back as well.