This might seem a bit of a strange statement given the modern focus on stopping the opposition.
But having watched the four quarter-finals this weekend, i'd say we've now got in front of us four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once.
They're also each got a handful of cracking technical footballers who would have graced any team in history.
In my time watching football we've had umpteen great rivalries, and a few very competitive three-ways, but I can't remember four quality sides at once. The fact that there's a gap to Kerry tells you all you need to know, while the rest of Ireland (even Tyrone) have been pushed miles behind.
Yesterday I never wanted to watch football again. Now I can't wait for the semis.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
This might seem a bit of a strange statement given the modern focus on stopping the opposition.
But having watched the four quarter-finals this weekend, i'd say we've now got in front of us four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once.
They're also each got a handful of cracking technical footballers who would have graced any team in history.
In my time watching football we've had umpteen great rivalries, and a few very competitive three-ways, but I can't remember four quality sides at once. The fact that there's a gap to Kerry tells you all you need to know, while the rest of Ireland (even Tyrone) have been pushed miles behind.
Yesterday I never wanted to watch football again. Now I can't wait for the semis.
I don't know about that, but I do like that there is one from each province for the Semi.
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
This might seem a bit of a strange statement given the modern focus on stopping the opposition.
But having watched the four quarter-finals this weekend, i'd say we've now got in front of us four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once.
They're also each got a handful of cracking technical footballers who would have graced any team in history.
In my time watching football we've had umpteen great rivalries, and a few very competitive three-ways, but I can't remember four quality sides at once. The fact that there's a gap to Kerry tells you all you need to know, while the rest of Ireland (even Tyrone) have been pushed miles behind.
Yesterday I never wanted to watch football again. Now I can't wait for the semis.
Master of hypebole!!! Dublin are a one trick pony and when Brogan struggles, Dublin struggle. Mayo are a good team but do they hae the mental strength to get over the line or will they fail like many other Mayo teams? Donegal are a strong physically fit unit who all buy into the 'system' but Kerry were very poor today and had no real leadership. Cork are potentially one of the great teams but might they end up like the great Armagh 1 in a row team? Hardly Vintage era stuff ::)
The one thing about the 4 semi finalists, they are all cynical and negative when needed, Mayo being the least worst of them, if that makes sense. The game has steadily movd away from the basics of how to play the game towards systems and strength. If anything it is the antithesis of a vintage era.
1996-2001 had the Meath-Kerry-Galway-Meath-Kerry-Galway winners, with many battles between them. Mayo could be said to have been the 4'th team in that 4 way rivalry, the 1996 Final and Replay V Meath, beating Kerry in 1996 & losing to them in 1997. Mayo V Galway in Connacht was great stuff in that period and Mayo beating Galway in the 2001 league final.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 05, 2012, 06:43:49 PM
1996-2001 had the Meath-Kerry-Galway-Meath-Kerry-Galway winners, with many battles between them. Mayo could be said to have been the 4'th team in that 4 way rivalry, the 1996 Final and Replay V Meath, beating Kerry in 1996 & losing to them in 1997. Mayo V Galway in Connacht was great stuff in that period and Mayo beating Galway in the 2001 league final.
I would add in the earlier years too. From 1990 to 2000 there were 8 differnt winners, all provinces covered and plenty of grat games and great teams. The quality of the football was exceptional too.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2012, 06:48:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 05, 2012, 06:43:49 PM
1996-2001 had the Meath-Kerry-Galway-Meath-Kerry-Galway winners, with many battles between them. Mayo could be said to have been the 4'th team in that 4 way rivalry, the 1996 Final and Replay V Meath, beating Kerry in 1996 & losing to them in 1997. Mayo V Galway in Connacht was great stuff in that period and Mayo beating Galway in the 2001 league final.
I would add in the earlier years too. From 1990 to 2000 there were 8 differnt winners, all provinces covered and plenty of grat games and great teams. The quality of the football was exceptional too.
Yip, that would bring, Dublin, Kildare, Cork, Down, Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Armagh into the equation as top teams at different stages, also Roscommon, Leitrim, Offaly and Cavan making brief cameos. (Did Laois win a League too!!).
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
well, i actually loled there....
try this one for size myles.... maybe you should sort your own house out and then you won't be losing your best player again to counties that have the wherewithal and the ambition.
for some it's the most difficult thing in the world to accept your own failings, but we live in hope myles, we live in hope.
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
well, i actually loled there....
try this one for size myles.... maybe you should sort your own house out and then you won't be losing your best player again to counties that have the wherewithal and the ambition.
for some it's the most difficult thing in the world to accept your own failings, but we live in hope myles, we live in hope.
It teams like Cavan I worry about as the shite ye play will inevitably be copied by teams short of quality, just like ye were a few years ago. Then we will have more cynical crap like today to watch.
Asa tyrone fan, we had a long period of 'nearly but not quite' and then the golden era, which seems to be coming to a close, maybe already closed.
Through it all, I have always loved to watch Kerry, Mayo, Dublin, Armagh, Galway...there will always be counties that will entertain.
When you have a long period of success you get spoilt - Kerry have been spoilt for years. Tyrone and Armagh have had a deadly 10 years.
Donegal are coming through with a style of football that wins games - they dont score 10 goals a game, but when they were tested, neither did Kerry, nor Dublin.
I admire the commitment, dedication, focus and desire that Mcguiness brings to his team, and that the players in turn bring to their game - the style of performance will never take away from the results.
They are a good team that are very hard to beat, and they will have raised the bar just a little higher - most of us may not like it, but we all have to live with it, for this year at least
There is definately a clear top 5. These 4 and kerry, and i reckon kerry would have beaten mayo, cork and dublin today, so don't start believing they are way behind these 4. I like mayo, but they will have be beat dublin before i would rate them any higher than 5th best team in the country
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 08:05:37 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
well, i actually loled there....
try this one for size myles.... maybe you should sort your own house out and then you won't be losing your best player again to counties that have the wherewithal and the ambition.
for some it's the most difficult thing in the world to accept your own failings, but we live in hope myles, we live in hope.
It teams like Cavan I worry about as the shite ye play will inevitably be copied by teams short of quality, just like ye were a few years ago. Then we will have more cynical crap like today to watch.
load of rubbish, cavan have enough players to achieve, you're just using this as an excuse as you don't like how we play and take a permanent defensive position too on what it takes to win at the top level these days. you'll win nothing for a long time until you change your ways.
btw, it was a magnificent game today. and it was because of no small amounts of skill and an intensity made possible by a physicality forged in the slog of training like you actually want it. but you would prefer to stick to your myopic view that has driven one of your players further afield into the arms of another county that runs things that can match his ambition and the level of commitment he prefers to give. you're a sad man myles slagging of folk who want to put the effort in while you champion the pissing about option. sad and a poor excuse for a cavan man.
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 08:54:07 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 08:05:37 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
well, i actually loled there....
try this one for size myles.... maybe you should sort your own house out and then you won't be losing your best player again to counties that have the wherewithal and the ambition.
for some it's the most difficult thing in the world to accept your own failings, but we live in hope myles, we live in hope.
It teams like Cavan I worry about as the shite ye play will inevitably be copied by teams short of quality, just like ye were a few years ago. Then we will have more cynical crap like today to watch.
load of rubbish, cavan have enough players to achieve, you're just using this as an excuse as you don't like how we play and take a permanent defensive position too on what it takes to win at the top level these days. you'll win nothing for a long time until you change your ways.
btw, it was a magnificent game today. and it was because of no small amounts of skill and an intensity made possible by a physicality forged in the slog of training like you actually want it. but you would prefer to stick to your myopic view that has driven one of your players further afield into the arms of another county that runs things that can match his ambition and the level of commitment he prefers to give. you're a sad man myles slagging of folk who want to put the effort in while you champion the pissing about option. sad and a poor excuse for a cavan man.
Cadence lad, you're on a hiding to nothing continuously defending Donegals tactics. Its anti-football, end of. Stop the man first and foremost and then try and do something on the break. A magnificient game it was not, a magnificent result for Donegal it was
Quote from: J OGorman on August 05, 2012, 09:08:20 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 08:54:07 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 08:05:37 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
well, i actually loled there....
try this one for size myles.... maybe you should sort your own house out and then you won't be losing your best player again to counties that have the wherewithal and the ambition.
for some it's the most difficult thing in the world to accept your own failings, but we live in hope myles, we live in hope.
It teams like Cavan I worry about as the shite ye play will inevitably be copied by teams short of quality, just like ye were a few years ago. Then we will have more cynical crap like today to watch.
load of rubbish, cavan have enough players to achieve, you're just using this as an excuse as you don't like how we play and take a permanent defensive position too on what it takes to win at the top level these days. you'll win nothing for a long time until you change your ways.
btw, it was a magnificent game today. and it was because of no small amounts of skill and an intensity made possible by a physicality forged in the slog of training like you actually want it. but you would prefer to stick to your myopic view that has driven one of your players further afield into the arms of another county that runs things that can match his ambition and the level of commitment he prefers to give. you're a sad man myles slagging of folk who want to put the effort in while you champion the pissing about option. sad and a poor excuse for a cavan man.
Cadence lad, you're on a hiding to nothing continuously defending Donegals tactics. Its anti-football, end of. Stop the man first and foremost and then try and do something on the break. A magnificient game it was not, a magnificent result for Donegal it was
i think you'll find it's called defending, shutting the other team down, that other team being kerry. it's cloud-cuckoo-land to think you can't be defensively sound against kerry and expect to come out the right side of the result. and to call how we attacked today as "do something on the break" is disingenuous, at best. kerry shut tyrone down but we counterattacked and mixed it up enough with long diagonal balls to murphy and mcfadden to keep the kerry defence back which gave our counterattacking runners more space. anti-football! try looking at what goes on in the game a bit.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
TG4 showed the 1980 Kerry/ Offaly semi-final a few days ago.
I had been at that game and it was one of the best I had seen-especially the last quarter when Offaly staged a thrilling fightback. However, after watching it again, I believe that type of football has no place in the modern game. It's a pity but that's progress...
You had two top-class teams who battled it out to the end and, by the standards of the time, the game was played in a clean, sporting manner.
A ref nowadays wouldn't tolerate some of the tackling and off the ball incidents in that game and I'll add that football then was a lot cleaner than it used to be back in Catch & Kick times.
Take a look at this Youtube clip and you'll see what I mean. It's a clip from the '75 AI final between the superpowers of the '70s, Kerry and Dublin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9VY7BKKCw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9VY7BKKCw)
Nobody passed any remarks; even Mick O'Hehir, the commentator, saw nothing strange as Mickey Ned O'Sullivan lay unconscious on the ground. Kerry were awarded a 14 yard free and everyone, bar poor Mickey Ned, got on with the game.
That was what passed for football in the so-called Golden Era.
Kerry, Dublin and Offaly were great sides but only when judged against the standards of their time.
Donegal today might not have the same number of talented players as any of those teams but they'd more than make up for it with their superior fitness, coaching and teamwork etc.
Their style of play may not be pretty but I'm sure Jim McGuinness & co. don't give a damn.
Winning is the name of the game and I don't see catch and kick ever making a comeback.
I have nothing but admiration for Donegal after witnessing the hammering they took in Crossmaglen two short years ago. The turnaround which they have achieved under Jim McGuinness is nothing short of miraculous.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
This might seem a bit of a strange statement given the modern focus on stopping the opposition.
But having watched the four quarter-finals this weekend, i'd say we've now got in front of us four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once.
They're also each got a handful of cracking technical footballers who would have graced any team in history.
In my time watching football we've had umpteen great rivalries, and a few very competitive three-ways, but I can't remember four quality sides at once. The fact that there's a gap to Kerry tells you all you need to know, while the rest of Ireland (even Tyrone) have been pushed miles behind.
Yesterday I never wanted to watch football again. Now I can't wait for the semis.
Master of hypebole!!! Dublin are a one trick pony and when Brogan struggles, Dublin struggle. Mayo are a good team but do they hae the mental strength to get over the line or will they fail like many other Mayo teams? Donegal are a strong physically fit unit who all buy into the 'system' but Kerry were very poor today and had no real leadership. Cork are potentially one of the great teams but might they end up like the great Armagh 1 in a row team? Hardly Vintage era stuff ::)
The one thing about the 4 semi finalists, they are all cynical and negative when needed, Mayo being the least worst of them, if that makes sense. The game has steadily movd away from the basics of how to play the game towards systems and strength. If anything it is the antithesis of a vintage era.
Pure hyperbole - except I phrased it 'are we entering?' rather than we are in.
I'd agree that Dublin are the weaker side in this equation. But then again they've won 752 of the last 753 Leinster titles, so mut be a better than average side. And while they lack flair, if they were to play an All Star select every week, you know they'd still be in the mix in the last 5 minutes - their fitness, athleticism and commitment makes up for other shortfalls.
Mayo are the new kids in all this for me. But what I saw yesterday was a team that bossed Down in every aspect of football; any team that has done this in the past decade has gone on to pick up silverware. I couldn't believe how discreetly cynical they were - it was almost Kerry-esque.
Time will tell, but I think we're in for a cracking few years of these four bating' the sh1te out of each other at Croke.
Give me Donegal v Kerry any day of the week, fabulous sport.
Are Mayo really one of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware teams in the history of football? That actually made me laugh!
Are our players' physiques aligned to AFL now more than ever?
But then you've wee McHugh buzzing about I suppose.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 05, 2012, 11:34:45 PM
Are Mayo really one of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware teams in the history of football? That actually made me laugh!
And why did that make you laugh? Go on tell us? Share the Joke. :P
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 05, 2012, 11:34:45 PM
Are Mayo really one of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware teams in the history of football? That actually made me laugh!
Time will tell Benny. While not trying to deny Down's weaknesses, Mayo just made Down look like children yesterday. Probably of more importance is that last year they stood up to Cork and won. The current Cork team is the most athletic I've ever seen in football. Only a very athletic team could have done that.
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 05, 2012, 11:59:56 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 05, 2012, 11:34:45 PM
Are Mayo really one of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware teams in the history of football? That actually made me laugh!
And why did that make you laugh? Go on tell us? Share the Joke. :P
We must have different senses of humour - but I find exaggeration on this scale quite funny. This is a decent Mayo team who struggled to beat Sligo and beat a very poor Down team. Their arse fell out in the all Ireland semi final again last year when Kerry thumped them by 9 points - hardly the best display of tactical awareness. If this Mayo team go on to actually win something I may change my mind but if someone said to you in a pub tonight that Mayo were one of the most disciplined and tactically aware teams IN HISTORY - would you not laugh at them. No? Ok - maybe it's just me. :P
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 06, 2012, 12:47:28 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 05, 2012, 11:59:56 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 05, 2012, 11:34:45 PM
Are Mayo really one of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware teams in the history of football? That actually made me laugh!
And why did that make you laugh? Go on tell us? Share the Joke. :P
We must have different senses of humour - but I find exaggeration on this scale quite funny. This is a decent Mayo team who struggled to beat Sligo and beat a very poor Down team. Their arse fell out in the all Ireland semi final again last year when Kerry thumped them by 9 points - hardly the best display of tactical awareness. If this Mayo team go on to actually win something I may change my mind but if someone said to you in a pub tonight that Mayo were one of the most disciplined and tactically aware teams IN HISTORY - would you not laugh at them. No? Ok - maybe it's just me. :P
Fair enough! Being honest i missed the IN HISTORY bit, The first time around. They are definitely not that. But you must admit they are a bit cuter than Mayo teams of old. Peace
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
This might seem a bit of a strange statement given the modern focus on stopping the opposition.
But having watched the four quarter-finals this weekend, i'd say we've now got in front of us four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once.
They're also each got a handful of cracking technical footballers who would have graced any team in history.
In my time watching football we've had umpteen great rivalries, and a few very competitive three-ways, but I can't remember four quality sides at once. The fact that there's a gap to Kerry tells you all you need to know, while the rest of Ireland (even Tyrone) have been pushed miles behind.
Yesterday I never wanted to watch football again. Now I can't wait for the semis.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I found this weekends games poor viewing.
The closeness in the last few minutes of the Donegal-Kerry game made it briefly interesting but I saw no great sporting spectacle.
Might be an Olympic effect but it all seemed petty and irrelevant with more gamesmanship than sportsmanship.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 11:28:27 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
This might seem a bit of a strange statement given the modern focus on stopping the opposition.
But having watched the four quarter-finals this weekend, i'd say we've now got in front of us four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once.
They're also each got a handful of cracking technical footballers who would have graced any team in history.
In my time watching football we've had umpteen great rivalries, and a few very competitive three-ways, but I can't remember four quality sides at once. The fact that there's a gap to Kerry tells you all you need to know, while the rest of Ireland (even Tyrone) have been pushed miles behind.
Yesterday I never wanted to watch football again. Now I can't wait for the semis.
Master of hypebole!!! Dublin are a one trick pony and when Brogan struggles, Dublin struggle. Mayo are a good team but do they hae the mental strength to get over the line or will they fail like many other Mayo teams? Donegal are a strong physically fit unit who all buy into the 'system' but Kerry were very poor today and had no real leadership. Cork are potentially one of the great teams but might they end up like the great Armagh 1 in a row team? Hardly Vintage era stuff ::)
The one thing about the 4 semi finalists, they are all cynical and negative when needed, Mayo being the least worst of them, if that makes sense. The game has steadily movd away from the basics of how to play the game towards systems and strength. If anything it is the antithesis of a vintage era.
Pure hyperbole - except I phrased it 'are we entering?' rather than we are in.
I'd agree that Dublin are the weaker side in this equation. But then again they've won 752 of the last 753 Leinster titles, so mut be a better than average side. And while they lack flair, if they were to play an All Star select every week, you know they'd still be in the mix in the last 5 minutes - their fitness, athleticism and commitment makes up for other shortfalls.
Mayo are the new kids in all this for me. But what I saw yesterday was a team that bossed Down in every aspect of football; any team that has done this in the past decade has gone on to pick up silverware. I couldn't believe how discreetly cynical they were - it was almost Kerry-esque.
Time will tell, but I think we're in for a cracking few years of these four bating' the sh1te out of each other at Croke.
It is hyperbole to say we have "four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once". I firmly believe that the Donegal team of 1992 was far beyond the current bumch in terms of pure ability but also in terms of physique. Maybe they are not gym monkey bar bell eating monsters but the half back line alone of Reid, Gavigan and Shovlin were much more physically imposing and I would contend just as fit as the current line, the midfield was much stronger, the HF line of the 2 McHughs and Manus Boyle were far smarter than the current incumbents and they worked just as hard and as for the FF line, Murphy is a poors Tony Boyle. He may be as good as him in time but Boyle was one of the best FF of the last 30 odd years. I also would rate Declan Bonner ahead of McFadden. Up to this year and to a lesser extent last year McFadden was very much a sunshine footballer. He is playing well now but I still believe that he is there for the taking.
The current Mayo team is good but I would still rate the team of the early to mid 90's a stronger unit. They were within a bounce of a ball and a row from beating a very good Meath team which had a great mix of the old and new Meath. They were mentally weak as a result but they were a better group of footballers and under the Tanned one were very fit.
Like I said about Dublin they are a one trick pony and very much a confidence team who will play very well in space but their exertions over the last 18 months are catching up with them.
Cork are probably the closest thing potentially to a great team but they need to put at least 1 more Sam on the sideboard before they can be considered that.
Wobbler I actually thought you could see beyond the media spin on things. We have a change in our games which has moved away from the bases that the best of the game is founded on. In my view we are moving in the complete opposite direction from a vintage era.
QuoteWobbler I actually thought you could see beyond the media spin on things. We have a change in our games which has moved away from the bases that the best of the game is founded on. In my view we are moving in the complete opposite direction from a vintage era.
Ah hold on.
I'll rephrase from here.
How about: Are we about to enter a vintage era in terms of football competitiveness?
Not: Are we about to enter a vintage era in terms of football quality?
Quote from: thewobbler on August 06, 2012, 10:19:51 AM
QuoteWobbler I actually thought you could see beyond the media spin on things. We have a change in our games which has moved away from the bases that the best of the game is founded on. In my view we are moving in the complete opposite direction from a vintage era.
Ah hold on.
I'll rephrase from here.
How about: Are we about to enter a vintage era in terms of football competitiveness?
Not: Are we about to enter a vintage era in terms of football quality?
Well then say what you mean! As for an era of football competitiveness at the weekend 2 of the losing QF's lost by 12 and 13 points, I would hardly call that competitive! Kerry should have been kicked out the gate but at the heel of the hunt Donegal relied on a lucky goal to really give them a cushion! See it for what it is, its not a golden age!
BCB, what I've been getting at all along is that we might have a "big four" for a few years rather than a "big three" or a "big two".
Teams getting slapped in quarter finals has been a feature since day one. Being able to predict semi-final winners has normally been a formality.
There's no formality about this year's pairings. Any of the four could win the AI, not just because they're still in it, but because they have the raw materials.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 06, 2012, 10:29:54 AM
BCB, what I've been getting at all along is that we might have a "big four" for a few years rather than a "big three" or a "big two".
Teams getting slapped in quarter finals has been a feature since day one. Being able to predict semi-final winners has normally been a formality.
There's no formality about this year's pairings. Any of the four could win the AI, not just because they're still in it, but because they have the raw materials.
What the weekends games has shown me is that there is very little inspiring going on. Mayo beat a very inept Down team who have no clue how to defend, Dublin struggled past a hard working but limited Laois team who had very little cutting edge up front, Donegal beat a Kerry team that had a serious case of premature ejeculation against Tyrone and blew their load a week early. COrk to me put in the only real convincing display over the weekend, I don't see these teams making a 'big 4' as you describe it.
Can anyone remember the all ireland finals of 87/88/90/92/94/95/97/99/ they were all crap. 2004, 2006, were poor as well. Even the kings of the club game Cross play much watchable football these days than they did in the 90s / 2000s wins.
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 08:54:07 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 08:05:37 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
well, i actually loled there....
try this one for size myles.... maybe you should sort your own house out and then you won't be losing your best player again to counties that have the wherewithal and the ambition.
for some it's the most difficult thing in the world to accept your own failings, but we live in hope myles, we live in hope.
It teams like Cavan I worry about as the shite ye play will inevitably be copied by teams short of quality, just like ye were a few years ago. Then we will have more cynical crap like today to watch.
load of rubbish, cavan have enough players to achieve, you're just using this as an excuse as you don't like how we play and take a permanent defensive position too on what it takes to win at the top level these days. you'll win nothing for a long time until you change your ways.
btw, it was a magnificent game today. and it was because of no small amounts of skill and an intensity made possible by a physicality forged in the slog of training like you actually want it. but you would prefer to stick to your myopic view that has driven one of your players further afield into the arms of another county that runs things that can match his ambition and the level of commitment he prefers to give. you're a sad man myles slagging of folk who want to put the effort in while you champion the pissing about option. sad and a poor excuse for a cavan man.
Its seldom I've read such a disjointed post veering from one topic to another without making any coherent argument.
My point is this. To beat negative cynical football played by gym monkeys, you must become cynical and negative and spend 4 years in the gym. Kerry were every bit as cynical as Donegal today as they were against Tyrone. As a neutral, I don't want to see football reduced to this and I'm afraid your own county are pioneers in this new "style" of football which is a race to the bottom. In a few years Football will resemble rugby league.
Counties like my own who are starved of success will start to copy the Donegals on this world but how do you better it. Perhaps demand your players quit their day jobs and spend all year in the gym, sign their lives to the new fitness guru? Who knows how this next step will manifest itself. The GAA community must ask itself is this what we want football to become? Some rules need to be introduced to stop this, what they are I don't know.
Since you brought up the Seanie Johnston, another example of what is wrong with football. He betrayed his club and his county, togged out in Breffni park in a Kildare jersey against his own and has blackened the name of Kildare GAA all around the country - not just in Cavan. And for what??? To get 3 sub appearances in games that were already over, all introductions greeted by jeers from opposing fans, in his search for a medal. He got exactly what he deserved yesterday - nothing.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 06, 2012, 10:19:51 AM
QuoteWobbler I actually thought you could see beyond the media spin on things. We have a change in our games which has moved away from the bases that the best of the game is founded on. In my view we are moving in the complete opposite direction from a vintage era.
Ah hold on.
I'll rephrase from here.
How about: Are we about to enter a vintage era in terms of football competitiveness?
Not: Are we about to enter a vintage era in terms of football quality?
Junior club championships can be competitive and it doesnt mean the standard of football is any good. Is the current era any more competitive than the mid 2000s when Tyrone, Kerry, Armagh and Dublin had some great games? I've yet to see a game in the current era to match the intensity, skill and tactical awareness that these teams served up in their pomp.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 06, 2012, 10:04:42 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 11:28:27 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 05, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
This might seem a bit of a strange statement given the modern focus on stopping the opposition.
But having watched the four quarter-finals this weekend, i'd say we've now got in front of us four of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware sides in the history of the game together at once.
They're also each got a handful of cracking technical footballers who would have graced any team in history.
In my time watching football we've had umpteen great rivalries, and a few very competitive three-ways, but I can't remember four quality sides at once. The fact that there's a gap to Kerry tells you all you need to know, while the rest of Ireland (even Tyrone) have been pushed miles behind.
Yesterday I never wanted to watch football again. Now I can't wait for the semis.
Master of hypebole!!! Dublin are a one trick pony and when Brogan struggles, Dublin struggle. Mayo are a good team but do they hae the mental strength to get over the line or will they fail like many other Mayo teams? Donegal are a strong physically fit unit who all buy into the 'system' but Kerry were very poor today and had no real leadership. Cork are potentially one of the great teams but might they end up like the great Armagh 1 in a row team? Hardly Vintage era stuff ::)
The one thing about the 4 semi finalists, they are all cynical and negative when needed, Mayo being the least worst of them, if that makes sense. The game has steadily movd away from the basics of how to play the game towards systems and strength. If anything it is the antithesis of a vintage era.
Pure hyperbole - except I phrased it 'are we entering?' rather than we are in.
I'd agree that Dublin are the weaker side in this equation. But then again they've won 752 of the last 753 Leinster titles, so mut be a better than average side. And while they lack flair, if they were to play an All Star select every week, you know they'd still be in the mix in the last 5 minutes - their fitness, athleticism and commitment makes up for other shortfalls.
Mayo are the new kids in all this for me. But what I saw yesterday was a team that bossed Down in every aspect of football; any team that has done this in the past decade has gone on to pick up silverware. I couldn't believe how discreetly cynical they were - it was almost Kerry-esque.
Time will tell, but I think we're in for a cracking few years of these four bating' the sh1te out of each other at Croke.
The current Mayo team is good but I would still rate the team of the early to mid 90's a stronger unit. They were within a bounce of a ball and a row from beating a very good Meath team which had a great mix of the old and new Meath. They were mentally weak as a result but they were a better group of footballers and under the Tanned one were very fit.
I think you mean the mid to late 90' Mayo team. The Early to mid 90's team got a couple of good scalpings from Cork in 93, Galway in '95, Leitrim in 94 and Donegal in '92. I'd go into more detail about those games, but it would only bring back bad memories to my Mayo bretheren. Jez, Maughan deserves great credit to have got us to the stanard he did in one year in '96.
You're right, the team from 1996 onwards.
The sooner rule are brought in and implemented that stop the cynical tackling/fouling etc that goes on the sooner the game will be opened up and it can go back to players knowing how to defend properly and work on attacking more....
Sin bin and yellow card for third man or off the ball tackles - 14 men for 10 minutes. red card for second sin bin.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 06, 2012, 12:47:28 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 05, 2012, 11:59:56 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 05, 2012, 11:34:45 PM
Are Mayo really one of the most athletic, disciplined and tactically aware teams in the history of football? That actually made me laugh!
And why did that make you laugh? Go on tell us? Share the Joke. :P
We must have different senses of humour - but I find exaggeration on this scale quite funny. This is a decent Mayo team who struggled to beat Sligo and beat a very poor Down team. Their arse fell out in the all Ireland semi final again last year when Kerry thumped them by 9 points - hardly the best display of tactical awareness. If this Mayo team go on to actually win something I may change my mind but if someone said to you in a pub tonight that Mayo were one of the most disciplined and tactically aware teams IN HISTORY - would you not laugh at them. No? Ok - maybe it's just me. :P
Remind me how they got on the previous year please. No actually don't, because it was an absolute shambles... Horan deserves as much credit as Maughan for getting the 'buzz' back in Mayo football. Saying that we could lose the next day. But it's nice been in the last 4 for 2 years running for the first time since 1997.
I've never suggested that Mayo weren't a good team, Farrandeelin, and I agree Horan is doing a grand job. What I was commenting on was the complete over exaggeration that was stated and I'm sure you'd agree that it's a bit early to be lauding this Mayo team just yet?
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 06, 2012, 03:48:48 PM
I've never suggested that Mayo weren't a good team, Farrandeelin, and I agree Horan is doing a grand job. What I was commenting on was the complete over exaggeration that was stated and I'm sure you'd agree that it's a bit early to be lauding this Mayo team just yet?
+1 Who do we think we are, feckn Kildare!
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 06, 2012, 11:43:32 AM
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 08:54:07 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 08:05:37 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 05, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
We've entered the realm of cynical defensive football, in fact the idea that the word foot is used in the name of the game is ridiculous. A tight finish might be exciting but in terms of the more skillful team winning, that is out the window. I ask what is next, what is the next "guru" going to demand of players to win. The problem with this negative Donegal style is that to beat it you need to play the same or similar game.
well, i actually loled there....
try this one for size myles.... maybe you should sort your own house out and then you won't be losing your best player again to counties that have the wherewithal and the ambition.
for some it's the most difficult thing in the world to accept your own failings, but we live in hope myles, we live in hope.
It teams like Cavan I worry about as the shite ye play will inevitably be copied by teams short of quality, just like ye were a few years ago. Then we will have more cynical crap like today to watch.
load of rubbish, cavan have enough players to achieve, you're just using this as an excuse as you don't like how we play and take a permanent defensive position too on what it takes to win at the top level these days. you'll win nothing for a long time until you change your ways.
btw, it was a magnificent game today. and it was because of no small amounts of skill and an intensity made possible by a physicality forged in the slog of training like you actually want it. but you would prefer to stick to your myopic view that has driven one of your players further afield into the arms of another county that runs things that can match his ambition and the level of commitment he prefers to give. you're a sad man myles slagging of folk who want to put the effort in while you champion the pissing about option. sad and a poor excuse for a cavan man.
Its seldom I've read such a disjointed post veering from one topic to another without making any coherent argument.
My point is this. To beat negative cynical football played by gym monkeys, you must become cynical and negative and spend 4 years in the gym. Kerry were every bit as cynical as Donegal today as they were against Tyrone. As a neutral, I don't want to see football reduced to this and I'm afraid your own county are pioneers in this new "style" of football which is a race to the bottom. In a few years Football will resemble rugby league.
Counties like my own who are starved of success will start to copy the Donegals on this world but how do you better it. Perhaps demand your players quit their day jobs and spend all year in the gym, sign their lives to the new fitness guru? Who knows how this next step will manifest itself. The GAA community must ask itself is this what we want football to become? Some rules need to be introduced to stop this, what they are I don't know.
Since you brought up the Seanie Johnston, another example of what is wrong with football. He betrayed his club and his county, togged out in Breffni park in a Kildare jersey against his own and has blackened the name of Kildare GAA all around the country - not just in Cavan. And for what??? To get 3 sub appearances in games that were already over, all introductions greeted by jeers from opposing fans, in his search for a medal. He got exactly what he deserved yesterday - nothing.
whatever myles, with your conservative traditionalist position, using the same oul rationalisations over and over... gym monkeys, fitness guru, death of the game, like the game hasn't been evolving for years and what you're actually seeing is a very good manager who has figured out a way to challenge for honours.
tbh with you, the reason i'm pissed off with your attitude is i'm half cavan and have a soft spot for the county. sort your own shit out... take some responsibility for your own failings. would sj have left had cavan their house in order? very easy to blame a player who wants to achieve things and test himself at the top level. look at it from a player's point of view, one that wants to be as best as he can be. he's not such a scoundrel then.
i hope there are more modern thinkers about the game in cavan than you because it's a county i'd love to see do well.
Half Cavan or not you clearly haven't the slightest clue why Sean Johnston left Cavan.
has he spoken why he left? links please.
Quote from: cadence on August 06, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
has he spoken why he left? links please.
Find your own "links" whatever good they are, the dogs on the street in Cavan know what went on and if there was a rotten culture in Cavan Johnston was at the centre of it.But up in Donegal ye know full well what happens when a few bad apples are stuck in the middle of the county panel.
ah naw, you're right myles. there was me thinking you were creating fictitious and spiteful rumours to deflect attention away from the reality. it's not the case at all that the predominant and governing cavan attitude is stubbornly stuck in the past and you're a fine example of that. i apologise.
it would be ridiculous to suggest, you being the guardian of "traditional" (non-cynical even) football, that you'd slander the name of a player who merely wants to play for a county who are serious about winning things to defend your own embittered agenda.
how noble of you.
Quote from: cadence on August 06, 2012, 09:01:38 PM
ah naw, you're right myles. there was me thinking you were creating fictitious and spiteful rumours to deflect attention away from the reality. it's not the case at all that the predominant and governing cavan attitude is stubbornly stuck in the past and you're a fine example of that. i apologise.
it would be ridiculous to suggest, you being the guardian of "traditional" (non-cynical even) football, that you'd slander the name of a player who merely wants to play for a county who are serious about winning things to defend your own embittered agenda.
how noble of you.
What a moron you are, you do realise Johnston was not selected to be in the 2012 panel, hence his departure to Kildare - where he sits on the bench. What "rumour" have I put on here that is not true. You in Donegal took nearly 100 years to win a provincial title and now you think ye are pioneers of football - what a laugh. You have just resorted to reduce football to a game of rugby league where the "skill" of it is to break tackles and recycle the ball. You might as well use an oval ball since you have already been using rugby coaches. If the shite you put forward as football is allowed to flourish then people will simply stop watching. It is in the interests of the wider GAA family to have an attractive game so we can win the hearts and minds of the next generation of kids. Soccer had the same problem with time wasting back passes and they outlawed it, the GAA need to do something similar. I really hope Cork win the semi as I'd hate to see any team be rewarded for such muck. Anyway, I imagine it is pointless making a case which is for the betterment of the GAA to you as you are only interested in looking inwards.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 06, 2012, 09:29:39 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 06, 2012, 09:01:38 PM
ah naw, you're right myles. there was me thinking you were creating fictitious and spiteful rumours to deflect attention away from the reality. it's not the case at all that the predominant and governing cavan attitude is stubbornly stuck in the past and you're a fine example of that. i apologise.
it would be ridiculous to suggest, you being the guardian of "traditional" (non-cynical even) football, that you'd slander the name of a player who merely wants to play for a county who are serious about winning things to defend your own embittered agenda.
how noble of you.
What a moron you are, you do realise Johnston was not selected to be in the 2012 panel, hence his departure to Kildare - where he sits on the bench. What "rumour" have I put on here that is not true. You in Donegal took nearly 100 years to win a provincial title and now you think ye are pioneers of football - what a laugh. You have just resorted to reduce football to a game of rugby league where the "skill" of it is to break tackles and recycle the ball. You might as well use an oval ball since you have already been using rugby coaches. If the shite you put forward as football is allowed to flourish then people will simply stop watching. It is in the interests of the wider GAA family to have an attractive game so we can win the hearts and minds of the next generation of kids. Soccer had the same problem with time wasting back passes and they outlawed it, the GAA need to do something similar. I really hope Cork win the semi as I'd hate to see any team be rewarded for such muck. Anyway, I imagine it is pointless making a case which is for the betterment of the GAA to you as you are only interested in looking inwards.
ah just as i suspected. the upstarts donegal having the cheek to be successful galls you. bitter much?! when did donegal folk ever say we were pioneers of anything! more myths from myles surprise surprise.
btw, what planet are you on re sj? difficult to maintain his motivation and form when he knows cavan football is aimless and going nowhere and can't keep the talent it has had still playing the game. but there is no recognition of this in cavan.
http://www.anglocelt.ie/sport/gaelicfootball/articles/2012/07/25/4011462-end-to-end-cavan-must-retain-their-young-talent-to-have-any-hope/
it's as if something mysterious has cursed the county when really the problem is very simple. stop living in the past and make the best use of your talent. mcguinness is taken though.
i'm sure sj doesn't need lecturing on the values of the game, he's well aware of the taboo he was breaking. says a lot about how cavan are being run that he felt he had to break that taboo to test himself at the top level.
the only way to keep your talent is to motivate them. and the only was to do that is to get your shit together and give them something to train for.
re inwardness, you might benefit from trying a wee bit of self-reflection... think about whether you're spinning myths to bolster your ego and defend you bitterness for others because you are pissed off at how you're doing, or whether you are actually the guardian of football.
despite a mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise regarding your own county's current failings, you stick to defending your immediate reactionary position and insist the way you're approaching things is good for football.
stuck in the past much?
Quote from: cadence on August 06, 2012, 09:01:38 PM
ah naw, you're right myles. there was me thinking you were creating fictitious and spiteful rumours to deflect attention away from the reality. it's not the case at all that the predominant and governing cavan attitude is stubbornly stuck in the past and you're a fine example of that. i apologise.
it would be ridiculous to suggest, you being the guardian of "traditional" (non-cynical even) football, that you'd slander the name of a player who merely wants to play for a county who are serious about winning things to defend your own embittered agenda.
how noble of you.
surely you don't mean the bit in bold? If so, I'll stick with the past also :o
Quote from: J OGorman on August 06, 2012, 10:36:47 PM
Quote from: cadence on August 06, 2012, 09:01:38 PM
ah naw, you're right myles. there was me thinking you were creating fictitious and spiteful rumours to deflect attention away from the reality. it's not the case at all that the predominant and governing cavan attitude is stubbornly stuck in the past and you're a fine example of that. i apologise.
it would be ridiculous to suggest, you being the guardian of "traditional" (non-cynical even) football, that you'd slander the name of a player who merely wants to play for a county who are serious about winning things to defend your own embittered agenda.
how noble of you.
surely you don't mean the bit in bold? If so, I'll stick with the past also :o
no surprises there then. :D
I think it is pointless trying to debate with you as you refuse to engage on the issue. We have lots of problems in Cavan and everyone knows and admits that but how is that relative when discussing Donegals destruction of football. We discuss Cavan on the Cavan thread you are welcome to come in and advise us on how to deal with primadonna mercenaries anytime.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 06, 2012, 11:11:47 PM
I think it is pointless trying to debate with you as you refuse to engage on the issue. We have lots of problems in Cavan and everyone knows and admits that but how is that relative when discussing Donegals destruction of football. We discuss Cavan on the Cavan thread you are welcome to come in and advise us on how to deal with primadonna mercenaries anytime.
myles, as usual, no self-reflection whatsoever from you. i don't accept your argument that we play anti-football, puke football, whatever it's being called. anyone that has watched us play this season knows we are much more of a threat going forward and anyone that knows anything about donegal football knows we are maximising on the traditional donegal short passing game. we've always played the short passing and running game, it's just much more noticeable these days because our target numbers up front are more limited.
on the rugby league criticism... now i'm not aware of if we have sought insights from rugby league, but so what? if it makes our running game slicker what's the big deal? + it's hardly the first time football has sought to learn from other sports.
as for the donegal's destruction of football, i'd have thought it would be more prudent of you to be mindful of the demise of cavan football and get your house in order. i admire a man who proudly sticks to his guns, but jesus, have a day off will yah.