NFL Division 1 2024

[tyrone08]

Mickey ruined an entire generation of Tyrone footballers from 2008 on. Restricted them in every way. They were playing in a straight jacket. Completely devoid of ambition.

Harte "won" 3 All Irelands but the reality was that that team was a once in a generation team and they were destined to win All Irelands. The question was how many? If Harte hadn't have been there they probably would have won many many more. He refused time and again to pick the best players (Mark Harte has an All Ireland medal) and relied on moments of sheer genius from individuals to get them over the line. As that talent aged he couldn't reinvent or reenergise the team. He had Iron grab on the County and it took some bravery to finally oust him. With the those players freed them went on to secure another All Ireland. An average enough team by all accounts. Imagine what we could've done with in 2010s had players been released from his footballing prison. Without Harte we'd be chasing down double figures in All Irelands. 

Good luck to Derry but if the answer is Harte I fear you're asking the wrong questions.

Some nonsense this. If Tyrone had all these players to be winning All Ireland's how come did they didn't win an U21 ulster championship from 2007 to 20214? They struggled badly at that level which is a much better gauge of players coming through than minor. They had a good team in 2015 and won an all ireland u21 and within 3 years Tyrone were in a senior final with many of that crop involved.

Tyrone got to at least the semi final stage on 4 occasions from 2013 to 2019. The last few years have shown how well Harte did at consistently keeping Tyrone at the top end.

Can you be at the top table while never beating  top 3 team?

Does anyone know if the rte boycotting is still on going ?

[square_ball]

Mickey ruined an entire generation of Tyrone footballers from 2008 on. Restricted them in every way. They were playing in a straight jacket. Completely devoid of ambition.

Harte "won" 3 All Irelands but the reality was that that team was a once in a generation team and they were destined to win All Irelands. The question was how many? If Harte hadn't have been there they probably would have won many many more. He refused time and again to pick the best players (Mark Harte has an All Ireland medal) and relied on moments of sheer genius from individuals to get them over the line. As that talent aged he couldn't reinvent or reenergise the team. He had Iron grab on the County and it took some bravery to finally oust him. With the those players freed them went on to secure another All Ireland. An average enough team by all accounts. Imagine what we could've done with in 2010s had players been released from his footballing prison. Without Harte we'd be chasing down double figures in All Irelands. 

Good luck to Derry but if the answer is Harte I fear you're asking the wrong questions.

Whatever about the rest of your post that is extremely harsh on Mark Harte. He won an all ireland minor and 2 u21s and was on of the best players on those teams. He was one of the top forwards for Errigal when they won a Tyrone and Ulster title in 2002. If his surname wasn't Harte then there would be no questions about him being in the squad.

[trailer]

Mickey ruined an entire generation of Tyrone footballers from 2008 on. Restricted them in every way. They were playing in a straight jacket. Completely devoid of ambition.

Harte "won" 3 All Irelands but the reality was that that team was a once in a generation team and they were destined to win All Irelands. The question was how many? If Harte hadn't have been there they probably would have won many many more. He refused time and again to pick the best players (Mark Harte has an All Ireland medal) and relied on moments of sheer genius from individuals to get them over the line. As that talent aged he couldn't reinvent or reenergise the team. He had Iron grab on the County and it took some bravery to finally oust him. With the those players freed them went on to secure another All Ireland. An average enough team by all accounts. Imagine what we could've done with in 2010s had players been released from his footballing prison. Without Harte we'd be chasing down double figures in All Irelands. 

Good luck to Derry but if the answer is Harte I fear you're asking the wrong questions.

Some nonsense this. If Tyrone had all these players to be winning All Ireland's how come did they didn't win an U21 ulster championship from 2007 to 20214? They struggled badly at that level which is a much better gauge of players coming through than minor. They had a good team in 2015 and won an all ireland u21 and within 3 years Tyrone were in a senior final with many of that crop involved.

Tyrone got to at least the semi final stage on 4 occasions from 2013 to 2019. The last few years have shown how well Harte did at consistently keeping Tyrone at the top end.

AI Under 21 2015
AI Minor titles in 2008 & 2010 Beaten in the 2013 final.

Runners up in Ulster U21 2011 2012 2016

The players were there... the management wasn't.

Derry must win an AI this year. They have gone out and got their big name manager. They have put out a real statement of intent. Anything else than a clean sweep League, Ulster and AI will be a failure.

[trailer]

Mickey ruined an entire generation of Tyrone footballers from 2008 on. Restricted them in every way. They were playing in a straight jacket. Completely devoid of ambition.

Harte "won" 3 All Irelands but the reality was that that team was a once in a generation team and they were destined to win All Irelands. The question was how many? If Harte hadn't have been there they probably would have won many many more. He refused time and again to pick the best players (Mark Harte has an All Ireland medal) and relied on moments of sheer genius from individuals to get them over the line. As that talent aged he couldn't reinvent or reenergise the team. He had Iron grab on the County and it took some bravery to finally oust him. With the those players freed them went on to secure another All Ireland. An average enough team by all accounts. Imagine what we could've done with in 2010s had players been released from his footballing prison. Without Harte we'd be chasing down double figures in All Irelands. 

Good luck to Derry but if the answer is Harte I fear you're asking the wrong questions.

Whatever about the rest of your post that is extremely harsh on Mark Harte. He won an all ireland minor and 2 u21s and was on of the best players on those teams. He was one of the top forwards for Errigal when they won a Tyrone and Ulster title in 2002. If his surname wasn't Harte then there would be no questions about him being in the squad.

Canavan, Dooher, Mulligan, Cavlan, McGuigan, O'Neill, McGinley. He was very fortunate.
He took a lot of frees in those Minor and U21 teams.

[Blowitupref]

I don't want to win the NFL or Ulster this year.

Tailor training after the NFL to peak for the All Ireland QFs. A loss to Donegal will get the knives out for everyone about "Glen lads back too early" "no depth" "no forwards" "Mickey Harte shouldn't have taken the Derry job" etc.

Nobody better at a siege mentality than Mickey Harte.

The one problem with that is Mickey never likes to lose games ever so I imagine we'll just be flat to the mat from now until we get beat!

The other problem is mickey hasnt beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo in 10 years in a championship match.

Would the last time this happened not be 2008 AI final? I could be missing a game, but the big gripe towards the end in Tyrone was how long we had went without cracking these 3 in championship. I can't remember a more recent one, possibly a Mayo game I'm forgetting?

You're right, 2008 was his last Championship win in Croke Park against a genuine contender. He also struggled after going more defensive (post Donegal defeats) to find the right balance between defence and attack. Both of which made him an interesting choice for a Derry side trying to kick on by winning big games against the top teams and trying to find the right balance between defence and attack.

Is there a case to be made that Tyrone were a little off the top teams in the country at that time?Tyrone fans were spoilt from 2003 to 2008 going from never winning an all Ireland to 3 in 6 years and with that comes a demand for more success.Canavan their greatest ever player was coming to end and mulligan,mcguigan and o Neill were top class at their peak in those years.they didn't have anywhere near close to as good a forward line in the years that followed.

Yeah there is a case to be made and it's the standard response but I don't think it stands up to serious scrutiny. I'd say 2008 was Mickey's finest hour (so far 😁) in terms of management as he won an AI with McGuigan with reduced vision, fitness and mobility, Mugsy out of sorts and on the bench, SON not there but for a very late cameo and Canavan long gone. It was a real team achievement and the next couple of years looked rosy with that team still growing, SON back and Mugsy re-focused, and AI winning minor teams from 2004 and 2008. Instead he tried to go back to the pre 2008 model and failed badly in very winnable big games in 2009 and 2010.

The team was getting old in 2011 and 2012 (although he hadn't refreshed it properly if I'm being harsh) so I'd write those off. There were then a few seasons when he did well to stay pretty competitive with a less talented panel and I wouldn't question those defeats at all.

The new team 2016 onwards he made a mess of with an overly defensive model. Humiliating defeat against the Dubs in 2017 when the game was over after 5 minutes due to there being no plan other than ultra defence. Nothing wrong with losing to that team but the manner of it was terrible. Following year he threw 3 years of work out the window on AI final day by trying to go out all out attack with a team who had been drilled on mass defence. Over by half time. You wondered the following year when wr led Kerry were things coming together. Came apart second half trying to defend a lead.

Was no coincidence in 2021 players saying they loved Mickey etc but now felt free to express themselves on the big day and take on scores.

Now Derry folk can say bitter Tyrone people etc but there's nothing there I wasn't saying on  Tyrone threads for a few years before Mickey moved on. I've a massive respect for the man in so many ways, but he made a lot of mistakes from 2008 onwards. Perhaps he has learned from those, perhaps the hunger from the Derry players will make a difference and coupled with Mickey's experience will drive them on. But the questions are valid.

You don't concede 2-17 in game by playing ultra defensive. Was at that match and Tyrone were awful defensively.

[Derryman forever]

Mickey ruined an entire generation of Tyrone footballers from 2008 on. Restricted them in every way. They were playing in a straight jacket. Completely devoid of ambition.

Harte "won" 3 All Irelands but the reality was that that team was a once in a generation team and they were destined to win All Irelands. The question was how many? If Harte hadn't have been there they probably would have won many many more. He refused time and again to pick the best players (Mark Harte has an All Ireland medal) and relied on moments of sheer genius from individuals to get them over the line. As that talent aged he couldn't reinvent or reenergise the team. He had Iron grab on the County and it took some bravery to finally oust him. With the those players freed them went on to secure another All Ireland. An average enough team by all accounts. Imagine what we could've done with in 2010s had players been released from his footballing prison. Without Harte we'd be chasing down double figures in All Irelands. 

Good luck to Derry but if the answer is Harte I fear you're asking the wrong questions.

Some nonsense this. If Tyrone had all these players to be winning All Ireland's how come did they didn't win an U21 ulster championship from 2007 to 20214? They struggled badly at that level which is a much better gauge of players coming through than minor. They had a good team in 2015 and won an all ireland u21 and within 3 years Tyrone were in a senior final with many of that crop involved.

Tyrone got to at least the semi final stage on 4 occasions from 2013 to 2019. The last few years have shown how well Harte did at consistently keeping Tyrone at the top end.

AI Under 21 2015
AI Minor titles in 2008 & 2010 Beaten in the 2013 final.

Runners up in Ulster U21 2011 2012 2016

The players were there... the management wasn't.

Derry must win an AI this year. They have gone out and got their big name manager. They have put out a real statement of intent. Anything else than a clean sweep League, Ulster and AI will be a failure.

They would need to bring home the FA cup and Premiership too.

[trailer]

I don't want to win the NFL or Ulster this year.

Tailor training after the NFL to peak for the All Ireland QFs. A loss to Donegal will get the knives out for everyone about "Glen lads back too early" "no depth" "no forwards" "Mickey Harte shouldn't have taken the Derry job" etc.

Nobody better at a siege mentality than Mickey Harte.

The one problem with that is Mickey never likes to lose games ever so I imagine we'll just be flat to the mat from now until we get beat!

The other problem is mickey hasnt beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo in 10 years in a championship match.

Would the last time this happened not be 2008 AI final? I could be missing a game, but the big gripe towards the end in Tyrone was how long we had went without cracking these 3 in championship. I can't remember a more recent one, possibly a Mayo game I'm forgetting?

You're right, 2008 was his last Championship win in Croke Park against a genuine contender. He also struggled after going more defensive (post Donegal defeats) to find the right balance between defence and attack. Both of which made him an interesting choice for a Derry side trying to kick on by winning big games against the top teams and trying to find the right balance between defence and attack.

Is there a case to be made that Tyrone were a little off the top teams in the country at that time?Tyrone fans were spoilt from 2003 to 2008 going from never winning an all Ireland to 3 in 6 years and with that comes a demand for more success.Canavan their greatest ever player was coming to end and mulligan,mcguigan and o Neill were top class at their peak in those years.they didn't have anywhere near close to as good a forward line in the years that followed.

Yeah there is a case to be made and it's the standard response but I don't think it stands up to serious scrutiny. I'd say 2008 was Mickey's finest hour (so far 😁) in terms of management as he won an AI with McGuigan with reduced vision, fitness and mobility, Mugsy out of sorts and on the bench, SON not there but for a very late cameo and Canavan long gone. It was a real team achievement and the next couple of years looked rosy with that team still growing, SON back and Mugsy re-focused, and AI winning minor teams from 2004 and 2008. Instead he tried to go back to the pre 2008 model and failed badly in very winnable big games in 2009 and 2010.

The team was getting old in 2011 and 2012 (although he hadn't refreshed it properly if I'm being harsh) so I'd write those off. There were then a few seasons when he did well to stay pretty competitive with a less talented panel and I wouldn't question those defeats at all.

The new team 2016 onwards he made a mess of with an overly defensive model. Humiliating defeat against the Dubs in 2017 when the game was over after 5 minutes due to there being no plan other than ultra defence. Nothing wrong with losing to that team but the manner of it was terrible. Following year he threw 3 years of work out the window on AI final day by trying to go out all out attack with a team who had been drilled on mass defence. Over by half time. You wondered the following year when wr led Kerry were things coming together. Came apart second half trying to defend a lead.

Was no coincidence in 2021 players saying they loved Mickey etc but now felt free to express themselves on the big day and take on scores.

Now Derry folk can say bitter Tyrone people etc but there's nothing there I wasn't saying on  Tyrone threads for a few years before Mickey moved on. I've a massive respect for the man in so many ways, but he made a lot of mistakes from 2008 onwards. Perhaps he has learned from those, perhaps the hunger from the Derry players will make a difference and coupled with Mickey's experience will drive them on. But the questions are valid.

You don't concede 2-17 in game by playing ultra defensive. Was at that match and Tyrone were awful defensively.

Harte set them up to be defensive. And it worked for first 20 mins. Then Morgan's poor kick out gifted them a goal followed by the defence giving away a penalty. Tyrone weren't setup to chase the lead and ended up getting beat again as was typical of Harte's teams in big games.

[square_ball]

Mickey ruined an entire generation of Tyrone footballers from 2008 on. Restricted them in every way. They were playing in a straight jacket. Completely devoid of ambition.

Harte "won" 3 All Irelands but the reality was that that team was a once in a generation team and they were destined to win All Irelands. The question was how many? If Harte hadn't have been there they probably would have won many many more. He refused time and again to pick the best players (Mark Harte has an All Ireland medal) and relied on moments of sheer genius from individuals to get them over the line. As that talent aged he couldn't reinvent or reenergise the team. He had Iron grab on the County and it took some bravery to finally oust him. With the those players freed them went on to secure another All Ireland. An average enough team by all accounts. Imagine what we could've done with in 2010s had players been released from his footballing prison. Without Harte we'd be chasing down double figures in All Irelands. 

Good luck to Derry but if the answer is Harte I fear you're asking the wrong questions.

Whatever about the rest of your post that is extremely harsh on Mark Harte. He won an all ireland minor and 2 u21s and was on of the best players on those teams. He was one of the top forwards for Errigal when they won a Tyrone and Ulster title in 2002. If his surname wasn't Harte then there would be no questions about him being in the squad.

Canavan, Dooher, Mulligan, Cavlan, McGuigan, O'Neill, McGinley. He was very fortunate.
He took a lot of frees in those Minor and U21 teams.

So squads only carry 7 forwards? He barely started a game. He was a squad player at that time which he was more than worthy of being.

[Main Street]

Tyrone adinfinitis has broken out again, it's regurgitating and is on the rampage devouring pages and pages.

[Captain Obvious]

The old tired players win games, managers lose them. Harte had youse basking at the top table pretty much his entire stint. Minor and u21 before. The entitlement dripping off you is incredible. Current management team has delivered an All Ireland and there not getting the backing now too. How many at the Roscommon game, and a smattering at CP on Sunday?

Incredible indeed. Strong argument to be made that Tyrone would have zero Senior All-Ireland titles to their name but for Mickey Harte and even in 2021 it was basically the side Mickey built.

Tyrone heads not happy that he's joined Derry with the objective to win the All-Ireland with them in the next few years is one thing but trying to downplay what Harte has achieved for Tyrone is ridiculous.

[93-DY-SAM]

Mickey ruined an entire generation of Tyrone footballers from 2008 on. Restricted them in every way. They were playing in a straight jacket. Completely devoid of ambition.

Harte "won" 3 All Irelands but the reality was that that team was a once in a generation team and they were destined to win All Irelands. The question was how many? If Harte hadn't have been there they probably would have won many many more. He refused time and again to pick the best players (Mark Harte has an All Ireland medal) and relied on moments of sheer genius from individuals to get them over the line. As that talent aged he couldn't reinvent or reenergise the team. He had Iron grab on the County and it took some bravery to finally oust him. With the those players freed them went on to secure another All Ireland. An average enough team by all accounts. Imagine what we could've done with in 2010s had players been released from his footballing prison. Without Harte we'd be chasing down double figures in All Irelands. 

Good luck to Derry but if the answer is Harte I fear you're asking the wrong questions.

Some nonsense this. If Tyrone had all these players to be winning All Ireland's how come did they didn't win an U21 ulster championship from 2007 to 20214? They struggled badly at that level which is a much better gauge of players coming through than minor. They had a good team in 2015 and won an all ireland u21 and within 3 years Tyrone were in a senior final with many of that crop involved.

Tyrone got to at least the semi final stage on 4 occasions from 2013 to 2019. The last few years have shown how well Harte did at consistently keeping Tyrone at the top end.

AI Under 21 2015
AI Minor titles in 2008 & 2010 Beaten in the 2013 final.

Runners up in Ulster U21 2011 2012 2016

The players were there... the management wasn't.

Derry must win an AI this year. They have gone out and got their big name manager. They have put out a real statement of intent. Anything else than a clean sweep League, Ulster and AI will be a failure.

They would need to bring home the FA cup and Premiership too.

Throw in the Champions League and several golds at the Olympics as well.

[HiMucker]

I don't want to win the NFL or Ulster this year.

Tailor training after the NFL to peak for the All Ireland QFs. A loss to Donegal will get the knives out for everyone about "Glen lads back too early" "no depth" "no forwards" "Mickey Harte shouldn't have taken the Derry job" etc.

Nobody better at a siege mentality than Mickey Harte.

The one problem with that is Mickey never likes to lose games ever so I imagine we'll just be flat to the mat from now until we get beat!

The other problem is mickey hasnt beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo in 10 years in a championship match.

Would the last time this happened not be 2008 AI final? I could be missing a game, but the big gripe towards the end in Tyrone was how long we had went without cracking these 3 in championship. I can't remember a more recent one, possibly a Mayo game I'm forgetting?

You're right, 2008 was his last Championship win in Croke Park against a genuine contender. He also struggled after going more defensive (post Donegal defeats) to find the right balance between defence and attack. Both of which made him an interesting choice for a Derry side trying to kick on by winning big games against the top teams and trying to find the right balance between defence and attack.

Is there a case to be made that Tyrone were a little off the top teams in the country at that time?Tyrone fans were spoilt from 2003 to 2008 going from never winning an all Ireland to 3 in 6 years and with that comes a demand for more success.Canavan their greatest ever player was coming to end and mulligan,mcguigan and o Neill were top class at their peak in those years.they didn't have anywhere near close to as good a forward line in the years that followed.

Yeah there is a case to be made and it's the standard response but I don't think it stands up to serious scrutiny. I'd say 2008 was Mickey's finest hour (so far 😁) in terms of management as he won an AI with McGuigan with reduced vision, fitness and mobility, Mugsy out of sorts and on the bench, SON not there but for a very late cameo and Canavan long gone. It was a real team achievement and the next couple of years looked rosy with that team still growing, SON back and Mugsy re-focused, and AI winning minor teams from 2004 and 2008. Instead he tried to go back to the pre 2008 model and failed badly in very winnable big games in 2009 and 2010.

The team was getting old in 2011 and 2012 (although he hadn't refreshed it properly if I'm being harsh) so I'd write those off. There were then a few seasons when he did well to stay pretty competitive with a less talented panel and I wouldn't question those defeats at all.

The new team 2016 onwards he made a mess of with an overly defensive model. Humiliating defeat against the Dubs in 2017 when the game was over after 5 minutes due to there being no plan other than ultra defence. Nothing wrong with losing to that team but the manner of it was terrible. Following year he threw 3 years of work out the window on AI final day by trying to go out all out attack with a team who had been drilled on mass defence. Over by half time. You wondered the following year when wr led Kerry were things coming together. Came apart second half trying to defend a lead.

Was no coincidence in 2021 players saying they loved Mickey etc but now felt free to express themselves on the big day and take on scores.

Now Derry folk can say bitter Tyrone people etc but there's nothing there I wasn't saying on  Tyrone threads for a few years before Mickey moved on. I've a massive respect for the man in so many ways, but he made a lot of mistakes from 2008 onwards. Perhaps he has learned from those, perhaps the hunger from the Derry players will make a difference and coupled with Mickey's experience will drive them on. But the questions are valid.

You don't concede 2-17 in game by playing ultra defensive. Was at that match and Tyrone were awful defensively.

Harte set them up to be defensive. And it worked for first 20 mins. Then Morgan's poor kick out gifted them a goal followed by the defence giving away a penalty. Tyrone weren't setup to chase the lead and ended up getting beat again as was typical of Harte's teams in big games.

I'm confused, was it Hartes fault you were beat or Morgans or the defences fault?

[God14]

Its still so surreal to sit here & read all the Derry wans biggin' up Mickeys achievements as Tyrone Manager...

[Blowitupref]

I don't want to win the NFL or Ulster this year.

Tailor training after the NFL to peak for the All Ireland QFs. A loss to Donegal will get the knives out for everyone about "Glen lads back too early" "no depth" "no forwards" "Mickey Harte shouldn't have taken the Derry job" etc.

Nobody better at a siege mentality than Mickey Harte.

The one problem with that is Mickey never likes to lose games ever so I imagine we'll just be flat to the mat from now until we get beat!

The other problem is mickey hasnt beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo in 10 years in a championship match.

Would the last time this happened not be 2008 AI final? I could be missing a game, but the big gripe towards the end in Tyrone was how long we had went without cracking these 3 in championship. I can't remember a more recent one, possibly a Mayo game I'm forgetting?

You're right, 2008 was his last Championship win in Croke Park against a genuine contender. He also struggled after going more defensive (post Donegal defeats) to find the right balance between defence and attack. Both of which made him an interesting choice for a Derry side trying to kick on by winning big games against the top teams and trying to find the right balance between defence and attack.

Is there a case to be made that Tyrone were a little off the top teams in the country at that time?Tyrone fans were spoilt from 2003 to 2008 going from never winning an all Ireland to 3 in 6 years and with that comes a demand for more success.Canavan their greatest ever player was coming to end and mulligan,mcguigan and o Neill were top class at their peak in those years.they didn't have anywhere near close to as good a forward line in the years that followed.

Yeah there is a case to be made and it's the standard response but I don't think it stands up to serious scrutiny. I'd say 2008 was Mickey's finest hour (so far 😁) in terms of management as he won an AI with McGuigan with reduced vision, fitness and mobility, Mugsy out of sorts and on the bench, SON not there but for a very late cameo and Canavan long gone. It was a real team achievement and the next couple of years looked rosy with that team still growing, SON back and Mugsy re-focused, and AI winning minor teams from 2004 and 2008. Instead he tried to go back to the pre 2008 model and failed badly in very winnable big games in 2009 and 2010.

The team was getting old in 2011 and 2012 (although he hadn't refreshed it properly if I'm being harsh) so I'd write those off. There were then a few seasons when he did well to stay pretty competitive with a less talented panel and I wouldn't question those defeats at all.

The new team 2016 onwards he made a mess of with an overly defensive model. Humiliating defeat against the Dubs in 2017 when the game was over after 5 minutes due to there being no plan other than ultra defence. Nothing wrong with losing to that team but the manner of it was terrible. Following year he threw 3 years of work out the window on AI final day by trying to go out all out attack with a team who had been drilled on mass defence. Over by half time. You wondered the following year when wr led Kerry were things coming together. Came apart second half trying to defend a lead.

Was no coincidence in 2021 players saying they loved Mickey etc but now felt free to express themselves on the big day and take on scores.

Now Derry folk can say bitter Tyrone people etc but there's nothing there I wasn't saying on  Tyrone threads for a few years before Mickey moved on. I've a massive respect for the man in so many ways, but he made a lot of mistakes from 2008 onwards. Perhaps he has learned from those, perhaps the hunger from the Derry players will make a difference and coupled with Mickey's experience will drive them on. But the questions are valid.

You don't concede 2-17 in game by playing ultra defensive. Was at that match and Tyrone were awful defensively.

Harte set them up to be defensive. And it worked for first 20 mins. Then Morgan's poor kick out gifted them a goal followed by the defence giving away a penalty. Tyrone weren't setup to chase the lead and ended up getting beat again as was typical of Harte's teams in big games.

The first 20 mins set the tone for the heavy defeat and big score conceded. 1-8 to 0-4 it was. Ultra defensive isn't standing around marking space and not laying a glove on Dublins main players that day.

[tbrick18]

I don't want to win the NFL or Ulster this year.

Tailor training after the NFL to peak for the All Ireland QFs. A loss to Donegal will get the knives out for everyone about "Glen lads back too early" "no depth" "no forwards" "Mickey Harte shouldn't have taken the Derry job" etc.

Nobody better at a siege mentality than Mickey Harte.

The one problem with that is Mickey never likes to lose games ever so I imagine we'll just be flat to the mat from now until we get beat!

The other problem is mickey hasnt beaten Kerry, Dublin or Mayo in 10 years in a championship match.

Would the last time this happened not be 2008 AI final? I could be missing a game, but the big gripe towards the end in Tyrone was how long we had went without cracking these 3 in championship. I can't remember a more recent one, possibly a Mayo game I'm forgetting?

You're right, 2008 was his last Championship win in Croke Park against a genuine contender. He also struggled after going more defensive (post Donegal defeats) to find the right balance between defence and attack. Both of which made him an interesting choice for a Derry side trying to kick on by winning big games against the top teams and trying to find the right balance between defence and attack.

Is there a case to be made that Tyrone were a little off the top teams in the country at that time?Tyrone fans were spoilt from 2003 to 2008 going from never winning an all Ireland to 3 in 6 years and with that comes a demand for more success.Canavan their greatest ever player was coming to end and mulligan,mcguigan and o Neill were top class at their peak in those years.they didn't have anywhere near close to as good a forward line in the years that followed.

Yeah there is a case to be made and it's the standard response but I don't think it stands up to serious scrutiny. I'd say 2008 was Mickey's finest hour (so far 😁) in terms of management as he won an AI with McGuigan with reduced vision, fitness and mobility, Mugsy out of sorts and on the bench, SON not there but for a very late cameo and Canavan long gone. It was a real team achievement and the next couple of years looked rosy with that team still growing, SON back and Mugsy re-focused, and AI winning minor teams from 2004 and 2008. Instead he tried to go back to the pre 2008 model and failed badly in very winnable big games in 2009 and 2010.

The team was getting old in 2011 and 2012 (although he hadn't refreshed it properly if I'm being harsh) so I'd write those off. There were then a few seasons when he did well to stay pretty competitive with a less talented panel and I wouldn't question those defeats at all.

The new team 2016 onwards he made a mess of with an overly defensive model. Humiliating defeat against the Dubs in 2017 when the game was over after 5 minutes due to there being no plan other than ultra defence. Nothing wrong with losing to that team but the manner of it was terrible. Following year he threw 3 years of work out the window on AI final day by trying to go out all out attack with a team who had been drilled on mass defence. Over by half time. You wondered the following year when wr led Kerry were things coming together. Came apart second half trying to defend a lead.

Was no coincidence in 2021 players saying they loved Mickey etc but now felt free to express themselves on the big day and take on scores.

Now Derry folk can say bitter Tyrone people etc but there's nothing there I wasn't saying on  Tyrone threads for a few years before Mickey moved on. I've a massive respect for the man in so many ways, but he made a lot of mistakes from 2008 onwards. Perhaps he has learned from those, perhaps the hunger from the Derry players will make a difference and coupled with Mickey's experience will drive them on. But the questions are valid.

You don't concede 2-17 in game by playing ultra defensive. Was at that match and Tyrone were awful defensively.

Harte set them up to be defensive. And it worked for first 20 mins. Then Morgan's poor kick out gifted them a goal followed by the defence giving away a penalty. Tyrone weren't setup to chase the lead and ended up getting beat again as was typical of Harte's teams in big games.

I'm confused, was it Hartes fault you were beat or Morgans or the defences fault?

It was the players fault when they won. Harte's fault they were beat. And Morgan's fault downstream from Harte's fault for picking him in a defence who gave away a penalty. There's probably a finger of blame to be pointed at Dublin too for being so good.