The ulster rugby trial

[johnnycool]

One thing that I think is prevalent that also contributes to this culture of elevating young men of school age onto pedestals for sporting achievements on the field.
Schools cup rugby in places like Methody, BRA etc, etc and getting onto the team elevates these lads as almost legends and with that comes the trappings of the jersey pullers on a  night out and all that goes with it beyond that.
The complainant knew that only too well by the correspondence with her friend the day after.
Taking the issue of consent out of it, the girls are pieces of meat, conquests to be bragged about.

For schools cup rugby substitute in McCrory cup, is there any difference in how these young men are lauded in an unhealthy way IMO.

Add in the easy access to porn and it's a recipe for disaster.

[haranguerer]

Re consent, why not? There was long a general societal narrative that sex was something men tried to get and women tried to withhold - it seems to me that is where the consent issues we now have largely originate from. The vast majority of porn depicts both genders enjoying sex - a scenario which is a lot more conducive to positive attitudes to sex and consent as far as I can see.

Re expectations, I can certainly see that AZ. Which brings us back to the need to have, and ensuring all parties are comfortable having,honest conversations about sex and consent

[magpie seanie]

Listen to the podcast......people who know a lot more than most of us having an intelligent conversation.

[Dinny Breen]

Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Sorry but the burden is on you to prove that it does exist.

I see the following as aspects of rape culture.

Ignorance of or deliberate misunderstanding as to what constitutes rape, ie. the tropes about "if a woman doesn't scream, it can't be rape", which the defence QCs in the Belfast trial implied. We've actually had posters here who believed this, and not just the dregs who you'd expect to be ignorant but otherwise good posters who I would have thought this wouldn't have needed to be explained to. Implying or stating that spousal rape cannot exist, as George Hook did.

A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep, and who by definition cannot give consent. On another widely read Irish forum there have been several posters claiming that this is just fine. It's sexual assault at best and outright rape at worst. There was a high profile court case in Ireland not very long ago where a man commited ten such rapes and was sentenced to no jail time whatsoever - it was subsequently appealed and he got 15 months.

A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex. She can.

Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

Humiliation - the "Love Belfast Sluts" meme Blane McIlroy sent around, the demands to publicly out the complainant. The sickening feasting on the Slane Girl video and the attempt to publicly out her.

A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent. It doesn't. Again, this was a line pushed by the defence QCs.

A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent. There should always be a presumption of no consent until it's made clear consent exists.

A belief that "no" doesn't mean no. This has been relentlessly pushed through popular culture, movies etc.

Joking about rape.

Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped. They aren't. There is no such a thing as a woman "asking for it".

Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

Referring to women as animals in language, ie. as a pig in a "spit roast", or a "dog" or a "cow" or a "bitch". Other terms such as "bird", "chick" or "filly" may be less ostensibly hostile but they still portray women as animals.

Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms - "ruined her", "destroyed her", "pumped her", "smashed her," "ploughed her". So much of the language men use surrounding sex is based around violence.

Using deliberately degrading terms for women - "sluts", "whores", "brasses", "slags" etc., while referring to men as "legends", "top shaggers", "swordsmen" etc.

The assumption of male power and male primacy, the notion that what women want is "a real man" (never mind that most men who have this idea are pathetic, weak ignoramuses who have a clue what a real man is).

The assumption that female protest is crazy, irrelevant and illegitimate.

The denial that there is a problem with any of the above.

Subscribing to or engaging with any one of those notions is subscribing to and engaging with rape culture. Obviously the more elements one subscribes to, the more entwined with such a culture one is.

Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

Thought provoking stuff there Sid, not sure I would agree it's a huge portion of men but it's not a small portion either but hard to disagree with much of what you say if any.

[magpie seanie]

Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Sorry but the burden is on you to prove that it does exist.

I see the following as aspects of rape culture.

Ignorance of or deliberate misunderstanding as to what constitutes rape, ie. the tropes about "if a woman doesn't scream, it can't be rape", which the defence QCs in the Belfast trial implied. We've actually had posters here who believed this, and not just the dregs who you'd expect to be ignorant but otherwise good posters who I would have thought this wouldn't have needed to be explained to. Implying or stating that spousal rape cannot exist, as George Hook did.

A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep, and who by definition cannot give consent. On another widely read Irish forum there have been several posters claiming that this is just fine. It's sexual assault at best and outright rape at worst. There was a high profile court case in Ireland not very long ago where a man commited ten such rapes and was sentenced to no jail time whatsoever - it was subsequently appealed and he got 15 months.

A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex. She can.

Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

Humiliation - the "Love Belfast Sluts" meme Blane McIlroy sent around, the demands to publicly out the complainant. The sickening feasting on the Slane Girl video and the attempt to publicly out her.

A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent. It doesn't. Again, this was a line pushed by the defence QCs.

A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent. There should always be a presumption of no consent until it's made clear consent exists.

A belief that "no" doesn't mean no. This has been relentlessly pushed through popular culture, movies etc.

Joking about rape.

Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped. They aren't. There is no such a thing as a woman "asking for it".

Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

Referring to women as animals in language, ie. as a pig in a "spit roast", or a "dog" or a "cow" or a "bitch". Other terms such as "bird", "chick" or "filly" may be less ostensibly hostile but they still portray women as animals.

Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms - "ruined her", "destroyed her", "pumped her", "smashed her," "ploughed her". So much of the language men use surrounding sex is based around violence.

Using deliberately degrading terms for women - "sluts", "whores", "brasses", "slags" etc., while referring to men as "legends", "top shaggers", "swordsmen" etc.

The assumption of male power and male primacy, the notion that what women want is "a real man" (never mind that most men who have this idea are pathetic, weak ignoramuses who have a clue what a real man is).

The assumption that female protest is crazy, irrelevant and illegitimate.

The denial that there is a problem with any of the above.

Subscribing to or engaging with any one of those notions is subscribing to and engaging with rape culture. Obviously the more elements one subscribes to, the more entwined with such a culture one is.

Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

Good post.

[sid waddell]

Thought provoking stuff there Sid, not sure I would agree it's a huge portion of men but it's not a small portion either but hard to disagree with much of what you say if any.

I'd be surprised if many posters here don't currently or haven't in the past subscribed to at least some of those beliefs or engage(d) in some of those behaviours.

Certainly I know I have.

[Dinny Breen]

Thought provoking stuff there Sid, not sure I would agree it's a huge portion of men but it's not a small portion either but hard to disagree with much of what you say if any.

I'd be surprised if many posters here don't currently or haven't in the past subscribed to at least some of those beliefs or engage(d) in some of those behaviours.

Certainly I know I have.

Yep I know I have too. Hard not to be reflective reading through it.

[brokencrossbar1]

Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Sorry but the burden is on you to prove that it does exist.

I see the following as aspects of rape culture.

Ignorance of or deliberate misunderstanding as to what constitutes rape, ie. the tropes about "if a woman doesn't scream, it can't be rape", which the defence QCs in the Belfast trial implied. We've actually had posters here who believed this, and not just the dregs who you'd expect to be ignorant but otherwise good posters who I would have thought this wouldn't have needed to be explained to. Implying or stating that spousal rape cannot exist, as George Hook did.

A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep, and who by definition cannot give consent. On another widely read Irish forum there have been several posters claiming that this is just fine. It's sexual assault at best and outright rape at worst. There was a high profile court case in Ireland not very long ago where a man commited ten such rapes and was sentenced to no jail time whatsoever - it was subsequently appealed and he got 15 months.

A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex. She can.

Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

Humiliation - the "Love Belfast Sluts" meme Blane McIlroy sent around, the demands to publicly out the complainant. The sickening feasting on the Slane Girl video and the attempt to publicly out her.

A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent. It doesn't. Again, this was a line pushed by the defence QCs.

A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent. There should always be a presumption of no consent until it's made clear consent exists.

A belief that "no" doesn't mean no. This has been relentlessly pushed through popular culture, movies etc.

Joking about rape.

Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped. They aren't. There is no such a thing as a woman "asking for it".

Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

Referring to women as animals in language, ie. as a pig in a "spit roast", or a "dog" or a "cow" or a "bitch". Other terms such as "bird", "chick" or "filly" may be less ostensibly hostile but they still portray women as animals.

Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms - "ruined her", "destroyed her", "pumped her", "smashed her," "ploughed her". So much of the language men use surrounding sex is based around violence.

Using deliberately degrading terms for women - "sluts", "whores", "brasses", "slags" etc., while referring to men as "legends", "top shaggers", "swordsmen" etc.

The assumption of male power and male primacy, the notion that what women want is "a real man" (never mind that most men who have this idea are pathetic, weak ignoramuses who have a clue what a real man is).

The assumption that female protest is crazy, irrelevant and illegitimate.

The denial that there is a problem with any of the above.

Subscribing to or engaging with any one of those notions is subscribing to and engaging with rape culture. Obviously the more elements one subscribes to, the more entwined with such a culture one is.

Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

Thought provoking stuff there Sid, not sure I would agree it's a huge portion of men but it's not a small portion either but hard to disagree with much of what you say if any.

It is thought provoking and I'd agree that most of us have thought the same way in some circumstances. I'm not sure it makes a 'rape culture ' though. It's a culture of disrespect more than what you suggest.

[magpie seanie]

Thought provoking stuff there Sid, not sure I would agree it's a huge portion of men but it's not a small portion either but hard to disagree with much of what you say if any.

I'd be surprised if many posters here don't currently or haven't in the past subscribed to at least some of those beliefs or engage(d) in some of those behaviours.

Certainly I know I have.

Yep I know I have too. Hard not to be reflective reading through it.

Sadly must admit I have at times in the past also. I'd hope never to repeat them.

As I mentioned in my post and BCB mentions also I think the term "rape culture" is inaccurate or inappropriate but it's certainly a culture of disrespect and inequality. I know lots of guys who simply do not and will never see women as equal. I only realised this about some lads I know a long time in recent times....it seems the poor jokes we made were somehow actually true for them.

[AZOffaly]

That's what I'd suggest too bcb. But to be honest I think anyone who doesn't understand No means No, and who thinks performing sex acts on a sleeping woman, or who thinks that marital rape is not a thing, like domestic violence, is hardly reflective of a culture. I can't believe those beliefs are widespread enough to be called a 'culture'.

The lack of respect in the language used, the expectations and behaviours, even entirely consensual, is probably more of a culture than any 'rape' culture.

[haranguerer]

A rape culture suggests a culture which tolerates rape. That doesn't apply to our culture, even if you wish to split it by gender.

The list is food for thought, and raises some deplorable behaviours - it is not however, by any stretch of the imagination, evidence of a rape culture.

[Milltown Row2]

Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Sorry but the burden is on you to prove that it does exist.

I see the following as aspects of rape culture.

Ignorance of or deliberate misunderstanding as to what constitutes rape, ie. the tropes about "if a woman doesn't scream, it can't be rape", which the defence QCs in the Belfast trial implied. We've actually had posters here who believed this, and not just the dregs who you'd expect to be ignorant but otherwise good posters who I would have thought this wouldn't have needed to be explained to. Implying or stating that spousal rape cannot exist, as George Hook did.

A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep, and who by definition cannot give consent. On another widely read Irish forum there have been several posters claiming that this is just fine. It's sexual assault at best and outright rape at worst. There was a high profile court case in Ireland not very long ago where a man commited ten such rapes and was sentenced to no jail time whatsoever - it was subsequently appealed and he got 15 months.

A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex. She can.

Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

Humiliation - the "Love Belfast Sluts" meme Blane McIlroy sent around, the demands to publicly out the complainant. The sickening feasting on the Slane Girl video and the attempt to publicly out her.

A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent. It doesn't. Again, this was a line pushed by the defence QCs.

A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent. There should always be a presumption of no consent until it's made clear consent exists.

A belief that "no" doesn't mean no. This has been relentlessly pushed through popular culture, movies etc.

Joking about rape.

Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped. They aren't. There is no such a thing as a woman "asking for it".

Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

Referring to women as animals in language, ie. as a pig in a "spit roast", or a "dog" or a "cow" or a "bitch". Other terms such as "bird", "chick" or "filly" may be less ostensibly hostile but they still portray women as animals.

Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms - "ruined her", "destroyed her", "pumped her", "smashed her," "ploughed her". So much of the language men use surrounding sex is based around violence.

Using deliberately degrading terms for women - "sluts", "whores", "brasses", "slags" etc., while referring to men as "legends", "top shaggers", "swordsmen" etc.

The assumption of male power and male primacy, the notion that what women want is "a real man" (never mind that most men who have this idea are pathetic, weak ignoramuses who have a clue what a real man is).

The assumption that female protest is crazy, irrelevant and illegitimate.

The denial that there is a problem with any of the above.

Subscribing to or engaging with any one of those notions is subscribing to and engaging with rape culture. Obviously the more elements one subscribes to, the more entwined with such a culture one is.

Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

Good post.

The amount of right thinking males do not think like that, there has been neanderthal's who will always be like that, but its a very small minority who would stand to all of those points..

As for the posters on here that subscribe to those points I think you'll find in the main they don't.. they may have a slight variation on them but to claim that a person is in denial if he/she doesnt agree with all of those points in all of their entirety is daft..

There is no rape culture, there is no acceptence of rape buy anyone, by the same token anyone that takes somebody to court for a rape allegation/charge needs to prove she was raped, and what is the best way to to do that? If someone made an allegation against you how would you go about that? would you defend yourself or just accept it?

Also Ive heard a woman say she would ruin a person and another said she was shagged that hard she couldnt walk for a week!! women also talk about the size of dicks, believe it and how good they are with it!! As for making out she was telling lies, I think you'll find there were some lies by all involved.. this was already highlighted throughout the case

[sid waddell]

Indeed. I posted the one on boards.ie.

[sid waddell]

I find it very, ahem, "interesting" that so many men deny there is such a thing as rape culture.

Who denies this?

Ahem

There is no rape culture, there is no acceptence of rape buy anyone,

[sid waddell]

Indeed. I posted the one on boards.ie.

So why were you using a different handle to your normal one then? The staff and admins there don't take too kindly to people having multiple accounts.

As far as I know this isn't a forum handle inquisition thread.