The ulster rugby trial

[AQMP]

Given all heard to date, am I alone in believing that the jury will be divided on the verdict and there won't be a second trial given the current media interest?

If this forum is anything to go by, the make-up of the jury and their personal beliefs around what is consent and what is rape will be key.

Call me old fashioned but the fact that another girl walked in and thought the oral sex looked consensual(I don't understand how you could orally rape someone without physical threat or force since she's the one performing the act on the man, it's not passive) and the fact that the alleged victim had this chance to stop things and didn't would have me going not guilty.

I also find it strange that she didn't mention this witness coming in during her police interview, only after the interview had been  completed. I imagine they go through these things in great detail during an interview and it seems a huge omission. There are inconsistencies on both sides and those who are forgiving the girl's omissions due to trauma are making no such allowances for the accused.

For all the pontificating about the texts and WhatsApp messages(and they do sound like arseholes) these actually support their version of events and don't hint at any fear they had done anything wrong.

Then again, these lads do sound obnoxious enough to have raped someone without realising it but I believe that anyone who can't see that  there's reasonable doubt is prejudiced and had their mind made up from the start.

You've got a point here AM.  The more I think about this the more I think that no matter what the judge directs the jury to do it might come down to:

"If she didn't fight back she must have consented" - Not Guilty v. "They're a bunch of dirty middle class self entitled pricks who are at this all the time and have eventually been caught on, hell slap it up them" with a side order of "what are those two cnuts doing sleeping in the same bed three nights a week?" - Guilty as Fcuk

If the defendants take the stand that all might change.  I'd say the prosecution are praying that Rory Harrison gives evidence.  He has the demeanour of someone who's about to burst out crying and drop everyone in it!

[seafoid]

There are omissions for trauma and then the Jackson denying sex even took place. That's not an omission. If proven, it's a lie.

Did he think that cause he couldn't get it up that he didn't have sex? Dry humping and using the hand was his statement ?

I think this will be key. The fact that he claims he couldn't get it up and there doesn't seem to be much  medical evidence to back up sex, fluid etc. The internal vaginal would suggest that this was caused by something scrapping her, a nail or a ring for example, which would back up PJs assertion of using his hand. Although one witness says she saw them having sex she does not confirm that she saw penetration. She saw the motion of sex but cannot categorically confirm it. I think without clear medical evidence of sex having taken place then it will be very hard to prove beyond doubt that they had sex and therefore will be sufficient in my opinion to raise doubt. The WhatsApp messages are not good but they are circumstancial and can be played as lads being lads.

I think so far there are just too many inconsistencies and even though they have a lot of inconsistencies too I just don't know.

She definitely didn't see him using his hand

When see looked in she didn't! But no semen from Jackson also to think about

No lead in the pencil is one thing but it is very different to the Jackson 5.

[gallsman]

There are omissions for trauma and then the Jackson denying sex even took place. That's not an omission. If proven, it's a lie.

Did he think that cause he couldn't get it up that he didn't have sex? Dry humping and using the hand was his statement ?

I think this will be key. The fact that he claims he couldn't get it up and there doesn't seem to be much  medical evidence to back up sex, fluid etc. The internal vaginal would suggest that this was caused by something scrapping her, a nail or a ring for example, which would back up PJs assertion of using his hand. Although one witness says she saw them having sex she does not confirm that she saw penetration. She saw the motion of sex but cannot categorically confirm it. I think without clear medical evidence of sex having taken place then it will be very hard to prove beyond doubt that they had sex and therefore will be sufficient in my opinion to raise doubt. The WhatsApp messages are not good but they are circumstancial and can be played as lads being lads.

I think so far there are just too many inconsistencies and even though they have a lot of inconsistencies too I just don't know.

The WhatsApp's aren't circumstantial. The following day, in their own words, the lads referred to a spit roast. This is then corroborated by the evidence from the witness.

Anyone who thinks Jackson decided to dry humping her because he couldn't get it up is absolutely kidding themselves.

[Asal Mor]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

[gallsman]

Anyone, and I mean anyone, on this board who claims that in the event of ever not getting it up, they've just humped way at someone with a flaccid knob should be laughed out of the place.

These are relatively well known (very well known in some circumstances) sportspeople. They'd have absolutely no problem getting their holes as and when they wanted. There's no way in hell they'd be lying about it to try and look cool in front of the lads.

[brokencrossbar1]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

That's my opinion on it....lads still half cut from the night before. A lot of laddish attitudes that occur weekend after weekend. The lack of semen or any fluid in her vagina is not good for the prosecution.

[DuffleKing]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

That's my opinion on it....lads still half cut from the night before. A lot of laddish attitudes that occur weekend after weekend. The lack of semen or any fluid in her vagina is not good for the prosecution.

This is how I see it also. I find it very difficult to believe that a jury will convict on the evidence thus far and given that any remaining evidence will now be presented by the defence I think this can only end one way.

[gallsman]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

That's my opinion on it....lads still half cut from the night before. A lot of laddish attitudes that occur weekend after weekend. The lack of semen or any fluid in her vagina is not good for the prosecution.

This is how I see it also. I find it very difficult to believe that a jury will convict on the evidence thus far and given that any remaining evidence will now be presented by the defence I think this can only end one way.

That works both ways though. Any defence witnesses, if they have any, will be cross examined by the prosecution.

[Avondhu star]

Defence might apply to have the case dismissed at this point
The attitude of the Judge who has looked at the participants since the start mightnt agree.
In that case the Judges summing up will be
vital

[seafoid]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

That's my opinion on it....lads still half cut from the night before. A lot of laddish attitudes that occur weekend after weekend. The lack of semen or any fluid in her vagina is not good for the prosecution.

Surely she could have been raped even if he didn't ejaculate

[brokencrossbar1]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

That's my opinion on it....lads still half cut from the night before. A lot of laddish attitudes that occur weekend after weekend. The lack of semen or any fluid in her vagina is not good for the prosecution.

Surely she could have been raped even if he didn't ejaculate

Yes but there is other bodily fluid that will possibly pass. Not saying it's absolute but it can happen. It weakens the prosecution case.

[Wildweasel74]

The fact that this thread has reached a 100pgs is embarrassing, you lads nothing to do all day? I don remember a in depth thread on a gaa footballer dog fighting or anything else that bring a gaa into serious disrepute, but we all good for a i believe  / i don't believe thread on a rape case involving rugby players. How about just read the papers and leave it at that!

[Frank_The_Tank]

The fact that this thread has reached a 100pgs is embarrassing, you lads nothing to do all day? I don remember a in depth thread on a gaa footballer dog fighting or anything else that bring a gaa into serious disrepute, but we all good for a i believe  / i don't believe thread on a rape case involving rugby players. How about just read the papers and leave it at that!

why feel the need to come on to the thread and add to it then? 

[seafoid]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

That's my opinion on it....lads still half cut from the night before. A lot of laddish attitudes that occur weekend after weekend. The lack of semen or any fluid in her vagina is not good for the prosecution.

Surely she could have been raped even if he didn't ejaculate

Yes but there is other bodily fluid that will possibly pass. Not saying it's absolute but it can happen. It weakens the prosecution case.

Rape is pretty simple though. Penetration without consent.

[David McKeown]

Mcillroy also claimed to have had sex with her in WhatsApp messages, though according to the girl he never touched her. Childish boasts between themselves can't imo be taken to mean much.
As for PJ not getting it up and having to improvise, it happens.

That's my opinion on it....lads still half cut from the night before. A lot of laddish attitudes that occur weekend after weekend. The lack of semen or any fluid in her vagina is not good for the prosecution.

Surely she could have been raped even if he didn't ejaculate

Yes but there is other bodily fluid that will possibly pass. Not saying it's absolute but it can happen. It weakens the prosecution case.

Rape is pretty simple though. Penetration without consent.

Your forgetting a step there.