The ulster rugby trial

[Keyser soze]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Well from what has been reported as being the texts and whatsapps what evidence have you seen that would make you think that Harrison is likely to be convicted?

Because the evidence is indisputable that he deleted loads of them thus hindering the police investigation.  The texts were deleted because he didn't want others to see them.  Do we believe that it happened because he re-set his phone (his reason)?  He's the only one charged with perverting the course of justice (I think).

I was guessing that's why he was charged but wasn't sure. It was either that or police believed he had given a deliberately false account of the actions of others in order to help their case. I hadn't seen either reported though.

From a technical point of view I would imagine police either saw the WhatsApp messages originally or they were still present on someone else's phone? Otherwise how could they prove messages were deleted?

I'm not sure, but Hedworth/Hepworth?? the prosecution QC told the jury that though they had the substance of the texts and WhatsApps they couldn't be sure of the chronology because they'd been deleted.

Can you [or indeed anyone] remember when this happened as I cannot recollect deleted texts being mentioned before.

[johnneycool]

Your theory immediately falls down because it assumes societal norms applying to likely rapists. If you're capable of rape you're more than capable of being callous and casual about it after the fact.

I'll bow to your greater knowledge of the criminal mind.

You must be a psychologist as well as a legal expert. How do you get time to post on here?

[magpie seanie]

I just dont know how some people on here can say these guys are guilty, we dont know and will never know as we werent there; They may be but....

Rape is terrible but so is lying - and im not saying she is lying, but she wouldnt be the first; Just imagine for one minute she is lying.....u cant deny she would have good cause to lie ..

Just a different perspective, i dont and will never know what happened so wont come to conclussions

Where do you start with this?

[Milltown Row2]

Human nature being what it is, if the jury don't believe the defendants it will make a conviction more likely. That being said they will be reminded umpteen times over the next few weeks that the defendants must have the benefit of the doubt and don't have to be believed and that even if they think the defendants are lying that in and of itself is not enough for them to convict. That will also be drummed into them.

Strangely and I seem to be in the minority here but I actually think the texts and WhatsApp help the defendants to a degree because I would imagine the defence will paint them as conversations of fellas who didn't belief what had happened the night before was non consensual. I would have been far more corncerned about them if I was a defendant if they said things like'we better get our stories straight' or 'everyone say she consented'. Again I caveat this post with not having seen all the evidence.

That was my initial thoughts as well. I think Harrison refers to the complainant saying it was not consensual but I imagine the defence will try to paint the picture that it was regret after the fact as per Olding's statement. Its a complete mess and I have no idea what way this  should or will go.

I do think it actually strengthens the case for anonymity for all participants. If the defendants had not been named there would be limited interest in the case. In the scenario where the guys are found not guilty that's only fair. But I also think it would help the other party as there would be limited media interest in who the complainant was. As it stands now I think it is likely that her name would  get out which helps no-one. And if it a guilty verdict, I would imagine its easier to maintain that anonymity for her (should she decide) because there has not been such media attention. I know there is an argument that other victims/witnesses  are more likely to come forward if the accused is named etc but on balance i think it would be better to have all this out of the media.

When there is a systematic and societal bias against rape victims even coming forward I have little issue with names being made public once charged. If the police and the state didn't beleive a rape happened it wouldn't reach that point to begin with. It again goes without saying that a not guilty verdict does not equal innocence or a right to pick up their lives as if nothing occurred.

I am amused by the hand wringing in this thread over them being named despite it being common in many other types of cases. Do you realise the bias you're propigating here?

Beaut!

[AQMP]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Well from what has been reported as being the texts and whatsapps what evidence have you seen that would make you think that Harrison is likely to be convicted?

Because the evidence is indisputable that he deleted loads of them thus hindering the police investigation.  The texts were deleted because he didn't want others to see them.  Do we believe that it happened because he re-set his phone (his reason)?  He's the only one charged with perverting the course of justice (I think).

I was guessing that's why he was charged but wasn't sure. It was either that or police believed he had given a deliberately false account of the actions of others in order to help their case. I hadn't seen either reported though.

From a technical point of view I would imagine police either saw the WhatsApp messages originally or they were still present on someone else's phone? Otherwise how could they prove messages were deleted?

I'm not sure, but Hedworth/Hepworth?? the prosecution QC told the jury that though they had the substance of the texts and WhatsApps they couldn't be sure of the chronology because they'd been deleted.

Can you [or indeed anyone] remember when this happened as I cannot recollect deleted texts being mentioned before.

Just to be accurate Newstalk reported yesterday "The court heard a series of texts between Rory Harrison and Blane McIlroy were deleted".  Didn't mention Jackson or Olding deleting texts.  Harrison is also charged with withholding information.

[magpie seanie]

The PSNI are having a nightmare with what's been out in court over the past few days. Sounds like they didn't take this serious at all - 17 days to collect Olding's clothes from the night? Obviously the fella would have washed them.

You've got it wrong.

It was McIlroy's clothes....McIlroy who the alleged victim said never touched her. Hence understandable the police were less interested in his clothing.

They didn't collect Olding's clothes because they felt there was no need to......he had admitted ejaculating in his statement.

[magpie seanie]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Well from what has been reported as being the texts and whatsapps what evidence have you seen that would make you think that Harrison is likely to be convicted?

Because the evidence is indisputable that he deleted loads of them thus hindering the police investigation.  The texts were deleted because he didn't want others to see them.  Do we believe that it happened because he re-set his phone (his reason)?  He's the only one charged with perverting the course of justice (I think).

I was guessing that's why he was charged but wasn't sure. It was either that or police believed he had given a deliberately false account of the actions of others in order to help their case. I hadn't seen either reported though.

From a technical point of view I would imagine police either saw the WhatsApp messages originally or they were still present on someone else's phone? Otherwise how could they prove messages were deleted?

I'm not sure, but Hedworth/Hepworth?? the prosecution QC told the jury that though they had the substance of the texts and WhatsApps they couldn't be sure of the chronology because they'd been deleted.

Can you [or indeed anyone] remember when this happened as I cannot recollect deleted texts being mentioned before.

Just to be accurate Newstalk reported yesterday "The court heard a series of texts between Rory Harrison and Blane McIlroy were deleted".  Didn't mention Jackson or Olding deleting texts.  Harrison is also charged with withholding information.

The reports on news bulletins have been chronically bad. Seems no logic to the stuff they cherry pick and decide to include.

[Franko]

Human nature being what it is, if the jury don't believe the defendants it will make a conviction more likely. That being said they will be reminded umpteen times over the next few weeks that the defendants must have the benefit of the doubt and don't have to be believed and that even if they think the defendants are lying that in and of itself is not enough for them to convict. That will also be drummed into them.

Strangely and I seem to be in the minority here but I actually think the texts and WhatsApp help the defendants to a degree because I would imagine the defence will paint them as conversations of fellas who didn't belief what had happened the night before was non consensual. I would have been far more corncerned about them if I was a defendant if they said things like'we better get our stories straight' or 'everyone say she consented'. Again I caveat this post with not having seen all the evidence.

That was my initial thoughts as well. I think Harrison refers to the complainant saying it was not consensual but I imagine the defence will try to paint the picture that it was regret after the fact as per Olding's statement. Its a complete mess and I have no idea what way this  should or will go.

I do think it actually strengthens the case for anonymity for all participants. If the defendants had not been named there would be limited interest in the case. In the scenario where the guys are found not guilty that's only fair. But I also think it would help the other party as there would be limited media interest in who the complainant was. As it stands now I think it is likely that her name would  get out which helps no-one. And if it a guilty verdict, I would imagine its easier to maintain that anonymity for her (should she decide) because there has not been such media attention. I know there is an argument that other victims/witnesses  are more likely to come forward if the accused is named etc but on balance i think it would be better to have all this out of the media.

When there is a systematic and societal bias against rape victims even coming forward I have little issue with names being made public once charged. If the police and the state didn't beleive a rape happened it wouldn't reach that point to begin with. It again goes without saying that a not guilty verdict does not equal innocence or a right to pick up their lives as if nothing occurred.

I am amused by the hand wringing in this thread over them being named despite it being common in many other types of cases. Do you realise the bias you're propigating here?

You see this is where you let yourself down and expose the fact that you actually couldn't give a flying fcuk about the alleged victim here.  Anyone with half a brain would know that this case wouldn't have been given a second glance by the media if the defendants hadn't been such high profile people.

That being the case, this girl would have been spared the torture of having read and listen to the most intimate discussions about her being conducted on the front page of every newspaper and being the headline story in every news bulletin.  This trial and the associated reporting also has to have planted a seed of doubt into the mind of anyone thinking of coming forward in similar circumstances.

Of course, the defendants would have also been spared being vilified by every halfwit attention seeker in the street before being convicted of any wrongdoing.  And we all know someone in that bracket.

[Taylor]

I just dont know how some people on here can say these guys are guilty, we dont know and will never know as we werent there; They may be but....

Rape is terrible but so is lying - and im not saying she is lying, but she wouldnt be the first; Just imagine for one minute she is lying.....u cant deny she would have good cause to lie ..

Just a different perspective, i dont and will never know what happened so wont come to conclussions

Where do you start with this?

Wherever you wish MS.

Sweeper is just asking a question and offering a view.........assume he will be shot to pieces very soon by our resident legal experts, qualified psychologists etc

[Maiden1]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Well from what has been reported as being the texts and whatsapps what evidence have you seen that would make you think that Harrison is likely to be convicted?

Because the evidence is indisputable that he deleted loads of them thus hindering the police investigation.  The texts were deleted because he didn't want others to see them.  Do we believe that it happened because he re-set his phone (his reason)?  He's the only one charged with perverting the course of justice (I think).

I was guessing that's why he was charged but wasn't sure. It was either that or police believed he had given a deliberately false account of the actions of others in order to help their case. I hadn't seen either reported though.

From a technical point of view I would imagine police either saw the WhatsApp messages originally or they were still present on someone else's phone? Otherwise how could they prove messages were deleted?

https://www.recovery-android.com/retrieve-whatsapp-from-android.html#solution2

[Taylor]

The PSNI are having a nightmare with what's been out in court over the past few days. Sounds like they didn't take this serious at all - 17 days to collect Olding's clothes from the night? Obviously the fella would have washed them.

You've got it wrong.

It was McIlroy's clothes....McIlroy who the alleged victim said never touched her. Hence understandable the police were less interested in his clothing.

They didn't collect Olding's clothes because they felt there was no need to......he had admitted ejaculating in his statement.

The PSNI are coming out of this tainted and their behaviour throws up more questions than it gives answers.

Why would they go to Les Kiss first?

Why not ask/get for McIlroys clothes immediately instead of 17 days later?

Seems they didnt take this girls claims seriously at the beginning because of who it was against which in itself is a disgrace

[Keyser soze]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Well from what has been reported as being the texts and whatsapps what evidence have you seen that would make you think that Harrison is likely to be convicted?

Because the evidence is indisputable that he deleted loads of them thus hindering the police investigation.  The texts were deleted because he didn't want others to see them.  Do we believe that it happened because he re-set his phone (his reason)?  He's the only one charged with perverting the course of justice (I think).

I was guessing that's why he was charged but wasn't sure. It was either that or police believed he had given a deliberately false account of the actions of others in order to help their case. I hadn't seen either reported though.

From a technical point of view I would imagine police either saw the WhatsApp messages originally or they were still present on someone else's phone? Otherwise how could they prove messages were deleted?

I'm not sure, but Hedworth/Hepworth?? the prosecution QC told the jury that though they had the substance of the texts and WhatsApps they couldn't be sure of the chronology because they'd been deleted.

Can you [or indeed anyone] remember when this happened as I cannot recollect deleted texts being mentioned before.

Just to be accurate Newstalk reported yesterday "The court heard a series of texts between Rory Harrison and Blane McIlroy were deleted".  Didn't mention Jackson or Olding deleting texts.  Harrison is also charged with withholding information.

Oh right didn't see that at all, I've just read the report in the Irish News about the texting and there is no mention of texts being deleted in it. 

Why isn't McIlroy being charged with withholding information and perverting course of justice also then if a series of texts between them were deleted? Not expecting you to know the answer to that AQMP..... Syf probably will tho lol

[magpie seanie]

I just dont know how some people on here can say these guys are guilty, we dont know and will never know as we werent there; They may be but....

Rape is terrible but so is lying - and im not saying she is lying, but she wouldnt be the first; Just imagine for one minute she is lying.....u cant deny she would have good cause to lie ..

Just a different perspective, i dont and will never know what happened so wont come to conclussions

Where do you start with this?

Wherever you wish MS.

Sweeper is just asking a question and offering a view.........assume he will be shot to pieces very soon by our resident legal experts, qualified psychologists etc

What's the question exactly?

[Taylor]

I just dont know how some people on here can say these guys are guilty, we dont know and will never know as we werent there; They may be but....

Rape is terrible but so is lying - and im not saying she is lying, but she wouldnt be the first; Just imagine for one minute she is lying.....u cant deny she would have good cause to lie ..

Just a different perspective, i dont and will never know what happened so wont come to conclussions

Where do you start with this?

Wherever you wish MS.

Sweeper is just asking a question and offering a view.........assume he will be shot to pieces very soon by our resident legal experts, qualified psychologists etc

What's the question exactly?

He missed the ? at the end of the second sentence

[AQMP]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Well from what has been reported as being the texts and whatsapps what evidence have you seen that would make you think that Harrison is likely to be convicted?

Because the evidence is indisputable that he deleted loads of them thus hindering the police investigation.  The texts were deleted because he didn't want others to see them.  Do we believe that it happened because he re-set his phone (his reason)?  He's the only one charged with perverting the course of justice (I think).

I was guessing that's why he was charged but wasn't sure. It was either that or police believed he had given a deliberately false account of the actions of others in order to help their case. I hadn't seen either reported though.

From a technical point of view I would imagine police either saw the WhatsApp messages originally or they were still present on someone else's phone? Otherwise how could they prove messages were deleted?

I'm not sure, but Hedworth/Hepworth?? the prosecution QC told the jury that though they had the substance of the texts and WhatsApps they couldn't be sure of the chronology because they'd been deleted.

Can you [or indeed anyone] remember when this happened as I cannot recollect deleted texts being mentioned before.

Just to be accurate Newstalk reported yesterday "The court heard a series of texts between Rory Harrison and Blane McIlroy were deleted".  Didn't mention Jackson or Olding deleting texts.  Harrison is also charged with withholding information.

Oh right didn't see that at all, I've just read the report in the Irish News about the texting and there is no mention of texts being deleted in it. 

Why isn't McIlroy being charged with withholding information and perverting course of justice also then if a series of texts between them were deleted? Not expecting you to know the answer to that AQMP..... Syf probably will tho lol

Not sure on the charges KS.  Actually I wonder why McIlroy hasn't been charged with something more serious than exposure (or maybe that's a more serious charge that covers a range of activity).  He admitted engaging in sexual activity with the alleged victim (oral sex I think)