Military Displays at Croke Park

Started by gallsman, July 28, 2018, 10:20:21 PM

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trailer

Quote from: omaghjoe on July 31, 2018, 04:37:11 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 31, 2018, 04:31:34 PM
Just to really get peoples goats up.

How many GAA members were involved in the Easter Rising. I always thought it was concentrated in Dublin and was quite shambolic in its organisation. Events there after granted had more effect. I don't think it's true that 1000's of GAA members from across the country took place.
Commemorating members involved in the PIRA's campaign in NI isn't something I'd like to associate with. Only a very small minority were involved in violence in NI. To paint it as loads of GAA members were in the PIRA isn't accurate. Therefore having huge commemorations in GAA grounds, I think, is inappropriate.

Perhaps the question should be if "loads" of volunteers were in the GAA

A good gauge might be to compare  percentage of volunteers to the general populace v % of volunteers to GAA involvement.

They'd be interesting figures if they were available.

Therealdonald

Quote from: trailer on August 01, 2018, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 31, 2018, 04:37:11 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 31, 2018, 04:31:34 PM
Just to really get peoples goats up.

How many GAA members were involved in the Easter Rising. I always thought it was concentrated in Dublin and was quite shambolic in its organisation. Events there after granted had more effect. I don't think it's true that 1000's of GAA members from across the country took place.
Commemorating members involved in the PIRA's campaign in NI isn't something I'd like to associate with. Only a very small minority were involved in violence in NI. To paint it as loads of GAA members were in the PIRA isn't accurate. Therefore having huge commemorations in GAA grounds, I think, is inappropriate.

Perhaps the question should be if "loads" of volunteers were in the GAA

A good gauge might be to compare  percentage of volunteers to the general populace v % of volunteers to GAA involvement.

They'd be interesting figures if they were available.

Storm in a teacup here. Fake news. There have been loads of high profile GAA players with army backgrounds, a 1-off won't kill anyone.

Evil Genius

Quote from: omaghjoe on August 01, 2018, 05:00:21 PMIreland's sovereignty is protected mostly by NATO and the UN
Ah jaysus, I'm getting sucked in again, I told myself I shouldn't, but I am....

Anyhow, I think you're overlooking (deliberately?) what is effectively the primary component in the military preservation of the Republic's sovereignty, namely "The Hated Brits"  ;)

Royal Air Force asked to defend Ireland

British combat aircraft will 'shoot down aircraft over Ireland if they are hijacked by terrorists', according to local media.

According to the Irish Examiner, "five well-placed sources in Ireland and one in Britain have pointed to the agreement being in place, with a number saying the Defence Forces was not involved in negotiating it, despite the RAF asking for its inclusion."

Ireland lacks aircraft that can climb high enough or go fast enough to intercept Russian aircraft which came close to Irish airspace on a couple of occasions in 2015, being driven away by British jets.

It is understood that Civil servants from the Irish Department of Defence and Department of Foreign Affairs with the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) entered into a bilateral agreement with British counterparts: the RAF, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Ministry of Defence, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

The agreement reportedly permits the British military to conduct armed operations over Ireland in the event of a terrorist-attack, real or suspected.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-air-force-asked-defend-ireland/

More here: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-414646.html

"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

five points

Quote from: Keyser soze on August 01, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
Heh? Am I picking this up wrong or are you saying the Nazis were left wing???  Every day's a school day on here!!!

Yep, if they have the word socialist in their name and espouse big-state authoritarianism, it should be a giveaway.  :)

Evil Genius

Quote from: trailer on August 01, 2018, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 31, 2018, 04:37:11 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 31, 2018, 04:31:34 PM
Just to really get peoples goats up.

How many GAA members were involved in the Easter Rising. I always thought it was concentrated in Dublin and was quite shambolic in its organisation. Events there after granted had more effect. I don't think it's true that 1000's of GAA members from across the country took place.
Commemorating members involved in the PIRA's campaign in NI isn't something I'd like to associate with. Only a very small minority were involved in violence in NI. To paint it as loads of GAA members were in the PIRA isn't accurate. Therefore having huge commemorations in GAA grounds, I think, is inappropriate.

Perhaps the question should be if "loads" of volunteers were in the GAA

A good gauge might be to compare  percentage of volunteers to the general populace v % of volunteers to GAA involvement.

They'd be interesting figures if they were available.
It is estimated that there were approximately 2,500 Republican volunteers who actively participated in the Easter Rising:
http://ireland-calling.com/lifestyle/participants-in-easter-rising-1916/
It should not be surprising if it were proven that a significant number of these were also in the GAA.

However, over 200,000 Irishmen volunteered to fight in WWI. And even discounting the proportion of those who were Unionists from Ulster (a minority of the 200k, if a sizeable one), it is inconceivable that a significant number of these weren't also GAA members. Indeed, from simple mathematics, it is possible that as many as 50 x times the number of GAA members fought in the World War as in The Rising.

Of course, subsequent events meant that such a truth was unwelcome in many quarters of Irish Nationalism and the GAA etc, and so history was largely re-written to suit.

But with the passage of time, the "certainties" of the past are being revisited from the objectivity of distance, and the record is beginning to be updated.

I quoted this article earlier, but repeat it for the benefit of those who did not read it first time - it's interesting stuff (imo):
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/from-gaelic-fields-to-poppy-fields-the-gaa-s-hidden-part-in-the-great-war-1.3476517
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: five points on August 01, 2018, 05:55:13 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on August 01, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
Heh? Am I picking this up wrong or are you saying the Nazis were left wing???  Every day's a school day on here!!!

Yep, if they have the word socialist in their name and espouse big-state authoritarianism, it should be a giveaway.  :)
Sorry, but you're talking nonsense.

Briefly, when Hitler was demobbed after 1918, he drifted around aimlessly looking for some purpose after the army. German politics was in a state of absolute chaos around then with literally dozens (if not more) of small parties from right across the political spectrum all jostling to establish an influence. In particular, the Bolshviks and Communists were prominent, what with the success of the Russian Revolution in 1917, leading to the inevitable backlash from right wing parties.

Hitler happened to latch onto the tiny German Workers' Party ("DAP") in 1919, probably because its leader was virulently anti-Communist, anti-Establishment and anti-Semitic and within a year or two, had taken control and renamed it the National Socialist German Worker's Party ("NSDAP"). From there he proceed to establish an essentially Fascist ideology (after the Italian model of Mussolini) which was obviously very anti-Left Wing, but cannot be easily assumed to be conversely Right Wing, either.

This is because whilst the Far Right purports (at least) to eschew Governmental interference in everyday life, Hitler was also a nationalist totalitarian, who believed it was his destiny to direct the German people to their rightful place as governors of Europe in an expanded Germany.

Anyhow, the fact of the Nazi Party having the term "Socialist" and "Workers" in its official title is a coincidental anachronism - the key is that they were "National(ist)" and "German" i.e. Fascist.

"Here endeth the history lesson for today".

Sorry.  :(
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Rossfan

The word "Nazi" is an abbreviation of the German for National Socialist .
A lot easier than writing or saying the full mouthful ......

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

trailer

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 01, 2018, 06:02:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 01, 2018, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 31, 2018, 04:37:11 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 31, 2018, 04:31:34 PM
Just to really get peoples goats up.

How many GAA members were involved in the Easter Rising. I always thought it was concentrated in Dublin and was quite shambolic in its organisation. Events there after granted had more effect. I don't think it's true that 1000's of GAA members from across the country took place.
Commemorating members involved in the PIRA's campaign in NI isn't something I'd like to associate with. Only a very small minority were involved in violence in NI. To paint it as loads of GAA members were in the PIRA isn't accurate. Therefore having huge commemorations in GAA grounds, I think, is inappropriate.

Perhaps the question should be if "loads" of volunteers were in the GAA

A good gauge might be to compare  percentage of volunteers to the general populace v % of volunteers to GAA involvement.

They'd be interesting figures if they were available.
It is estimated that there were approximately 2,500 Republican volunteers who actively participated in the Easter Rising:
http://ireland-calling.com/lifestyle/participants-in-easter-rising-1916/
It should not be surprising if it were proven that a significant number of these were also in the GAA.

However, over 200,000 Irishmen volunteered to fight in WWI. And even discounting the proportion of those who were Unionists from Ulster (a minority of the 200k, if a sizeable one), it is inconceivable that a significant number of these weren't also GAA members. Indeed, from simple mathematics, it is possible that as many as 50 x times the number of GAA members fought in the World War as in The Rising.

Of course, subsequent events meant that such a truth was unwelcome in many quarters of Irish Nationalism and the GAA etc, and so history was largely re-written to suit.

But with the passage of time, the "certainties" of the past are being revisited from the objectivity of distance, and the record is beginning to be updated.

I quoted this article earlier, but repeat it for the benefit of those who did not read it first time - it's interesting stuff (imo):
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/from-gaelic-fields-to-poppy-fields-the-gaa-s-hidden-part-in-the-great-war-1.3476517

Thanks for sharing EG. As I suspected many more fought on the British / Allied side rather than being involved in the Easter Rising. Indeed it also highlights that even at that time the politicising of the GAA was an issue.
Many on both sides here in the North would do well to remember that. I believe the GAA is a force for good in people's lives and should not be used as some sort of political football by either Nationalism or Unionism. Yes our games are Irish and traditions are Irish, but they should not be viewed as a vehicle for Nationalism, rather they should be taken at face value for what they are, sporting activities. No more than Shinty being a sporting Scottish game.

 

trailer

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 01, 2018, 06:19:00 PM
Quote from: five points on August 01, 2018, 05:55:13 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on August 01, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
Heh? Am I picking this up wrong or are you saying the Nazis were left wing???  Every day's a school day on here!!!

Yep, if they have the word socialist in their name and espouse big-state authoritarianism, it should be a giveaway.  :)
Sorry, but you're talking nonsense.

Briefly, when Hitler was demobbed after 1918, he drifted around aimlessly looking for some purpose after the army. German politics was in a state of absolute chaos around then with literally dozens (if not more) of small parties from right across the political spectrum all jostling to establish an influence. In particular, the Bolshviks and Communists were prominent, what with the success of the Russian Revolution in 1917, leading to the inevitable backlash from right wing parties.

Hitler happened to latch onto the tiny German Workers' Party ("DAP") in 1919, probably because its leader was virulently anti-Communist, anti-Establishment and anti-Semitic and within a year or two, had taken control and renamed it the National Socialist German Worker's Party ("NSDAP"). From there he proceed to establish an essentially Fascist ideology (after the Italian model of Mussolini) which was obviously very anti-Left Wing, but cannot be easily assumed to be conversely Right Wing, either.

This is because whilst the Far Right purports (at least) to eschew Governmental interference in everyday life, Hitler was also a nationalist totalitarian, who believed it was his destiny to direct the German people to their rightful place as governors of Europe in an expanded Germany.

Anyhow, the fact of the Nazi Party having the term "Socialist" and "Workers" in its official title is a coincidental anachronism - the key is that they were "National(ist)" and "German" i.e. Fascist.

"Here endeth the history lesson for today".

Sorry.  :(

Fascism is on the right. There is an ongoing agenda to pin it on the left as some sort of extreme socialism. That is not true.


omaghjoe

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 01, 2018, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 01, 2018, 05:00:21 PMIreland's sovereignty is protected mostly by NATO and the UN
Ah jaysus, I'm getting sucked in again, I told myself I shouldn't, but I am....

Anyhow, I think you're overlooking (deliberately?) what is effectively the primary component in the military preservation of the Republic's sovereignty, namely "The Hated Brits"  ;)

Royal Air Force asked to defend Ireland

British combat aircraft will 'shoot down aircraft over Ireland if they are hijacked by terrorists', according to local media.

According to the Irish Examiner, "five well-placed sources in Ireland and one in Britain have pointed to the agreement being in place, with a number saying the Defence Forces was not involved in negotiating it, despite the RAF asking for its inclusion."

Ireland lacks aircraft that can climb high enough or go fast enough to intercept Russian aircraft which came close to Irish airspace on a couple of occasions in 2015, being driven away by British jets.

It is understood that Civil servants from the Irish Department of Defence and Department of Foreign Affairs with the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) entered into a bilateral agreement with British counterparts: the RAF, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Ministry of Defence, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

The agreement reportedly permits the British military to conduct armed operations over Ireland in the event of a terrorist-attack, real or suspected.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-air-force-asked-defend-ireland/

More here: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-414646.html

Not at all avoiding it but its fairly obvious they would be providing the bulk of it due to their proximity. Fairly confident they would be (and have been) providing protection regardless whether it was asked for or not due to the strategic importance of Ireland. The presence of a hostile military on the island of Ireland would simply not be tolerated by the Brits and NATO, whether that military was invited by Ireland or was invading it would be irrelevant to them.

five points

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 01, 2018, 06:19:00 PM
Quote from: five points on August 01, 2018, 05:55:13 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on August 01, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
Heh? Am I picking this up wrong or are you saying the Nazis were left wing???  Every day's a school day on here!!!

Yep, if they have the word socialist in their name and espouse big-state authoritarianism, it should be a giveaway.  :)
Sorry, but you're talking nonsense.

Briefly, when Hitler was demobbed after 1918, he drifted around aimlessly looking for some purpose after the army. German politics was in a state of absolute chaos around then with literally dozens (if not more) of small parties from right across the political spectrum all jostling to establish an influence. In particular, the Bolshviks and Communists were prominent, what with the success of the Russian Revolution in 1917, leading to the inevitable backlash from right wing parties.

Hitler happened to latch onto the tiny German Workers' Party ("DAP") in 1919, probably because its leader was virulently anti-Communist, anti-Establishment and anti-Semitic and within a year or two, had taken control and renamed it the National Socialist German Worker's Party ("NSDAP"). From there he proceed to establish an essentially Fascist ideology (after the Italian model of Mussolini) which was obviously very anti-Left Wing, but cannot be easily assumed to be conversely Right Wing, either.

This is because whilst the Far Right purports (at least) to eschew Governmental interference in everyday life, Hitler was also a nationalist totalitarian, who believed it was his destiny to direct the German people to their rightful place as governors of Europe in an expanded Germany.

Anyhow, the fact of the Nazi Party having the term "Socialist" and "Workers" in its official title is a coincidental anachronism - the key is that they were "National(ist)" and "German" i.e. Fascist.

"Here endeth the history lesson for today".

Sorry.  :(

You still haven't explained how big-state authoritarianism can be classed as right-wing, which (last time I checked) is the ideology of individualism.

As for Hitler, why exactly did he rename the DAP as he did? 

Hitler's main grievance with Russian-style socialism was neither its methods nor its philosophy of the subservience of the individual to the state, but his perception that it was run by "the Jews" as he put it. The fact that he infected his version of socialism with notions of racial superiority is rather beside the point.

shark

Quote from: omaghjoe on August 01, 2018, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 01, 2018, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 01, 2018, 05:00:21 PMIreland's sovereignty is protected mostly by NATO and the UN
Ah jaysus, I'm getting sucked in again, I told myself I shouldn't, but I am....

Anyhow, I think you're overlooking (deliberately?) what is effectively the primary component in the military preservation of the Republic's sovereignty, namely "The Hated Brits"  ;)

Royal Air Force asked to defend Ireland

British combat aircraft will 'shoot down aircraft over Ireland if they are hijacked by terrorists', according to local media.

According to the Irish Examiner, "five well-placed sources in Ireland and one in Britain have pointed to the agreement being in place, with a number saying the Defence Forces was not involved in negotiating it, despite the RAF asking for its inclusion."

Ireland lacks aircraft that can climb high enough or go fast enough to intercept Russian aircraft which came close to Irish airspace on a couple of occasions in 2015, being driven away by British jets.

It is understood that Civil servants from the Irish Department of Defence and Department of Foreign Affairs with the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) entered into a bilateral agreement with British counterparts: the RAF, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Ministry of Defence, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

The agreement reportedly permits the British military to conduct armed operations over Ireland in the event of a terrorist-attack, real or suspected.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-air-force-asked-defend-ireland/

More here: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-414646.html

Not at all avoiding it but its fairly obvious they would be providing the bulk of it due to their proximity. Fairly confident they would be (and have been) providing protection regardless whether it was asked for or not due to the strategic importance of Ireland. The presence of a hostile military on the island of Ireland would simply not be tolerated by the Brits and NATO, whether that military was invited by Ireland or was invading it would be irrelevant to them.

It has been agreed upon formally. We have had a military MOU with the UK since 2015.

http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/DEFMemorandum_of_Understanding_between_the_UK_and_Ireland_on_the_enhancement_of_bilateral_engagement_on_certain_aspects_of_defence_and_security_co-operation19012015_174233.pdf

The Irish taxpayer is only interesting in free-riding when it comes to security and defence. Any government that tried to properly fund this area would be hammered for it.