The Paudie O'Se Cup

[APM]

Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking about how Armagh and Roscommon game should have been the final of the second tier competition and that Roscommon don't belong in the race for Sam.

This debate has gained obvious traction and I'd be concerned about where it will end up:

How would we decide who should be in the so-called Super 8s if we moved to this new tiered format. If teams like Roscommon don't belong with the big boys then where do you draw the line.  Kildare were beaten in every game this year in Division 1 this year.  Should they be there. They were beaten by Carlow in their first round of Leinster, but they have went on to be on of the stories of the championship.   What about Cavan, who gave Tyrone a good game this year and like Roscommon have just been promoted to Div 1, having been relegated last year.  What about Meath who nearly knocked out Tyrone this year and have been slumbering in Division 2? 

[Jinxy]

If you want to kill a tiered championship stone-dead, give it a name like 'The Paidi O'Sé Cup'.
FFS, we have perfectly adequate terminology that everyone is comfortable with for this as it is, i.e. Senior, Intermediate and Junior.

[Derry Optimist]

Regarding which teams should take part in a second tier All Ireland football championship I think the solution is quite simple.The Sam Maguire Cup should be confined to those teams who have qualified to be in Division One and Division Two of the following year's National Leagues. Likewise the second tiered competition should consist of those teams which are in the following year's Division Three and Division Four of the Leagues.

That would ensure that, in the main, all teams would be competing in a competition mainly of their own standard and thus more competitive.The present provincial system is totally unfair and inequitable and should not be used as a basis for any Championship structure.

Both competitions should be treated equally in terms of number  of games,marketing and presentation.(In other words each tier one game should be preceded by a tier two game as a curtain raiser)In this way there would be a huge incentive for the "lesser" teams to win the second tier competition, the final of which should be played on All Ireland Senior football final weekend.

[westbound]

Regarding which teams should take part in a second tier All Ireland football championship I think the solution is quite simple.The Sam Maguire Cup should be confined to those teams who have qualified to be in Division One and Division Two of the following year's National Leagues. Likewise the second tiered competition should consist of those teams which are in the following year's Division Three and Division Four of the Leagues.

That would ensure that, in the main, all teams would be competing in a competition mainly of their own standard and thus more competitive.The present provincial system is totally unfair and inequitable and should not be used as a basis for any Championship structure.

Both competitions should be treated equally in terms of number  of games,marketing and presentation.(In other words each tier one game should be preceded by a tier two game as a curtain raiser)In this way there would be a huge incentive for the "lesser" teams to win the second tier competition, the final of which should be played on All Ireland Senior football final weekend.

In advocating this competition, Joe Brolly was using Roscommon as an example of why there should be a second tier competition saying the don't belong in the top tier. But you are suggesting that Roscommon and at least 7 teams ranked lower than them (based on the 2018 league) should be in tier 1.

I don't agree with a second tier competition at all. But if we are saying that Roscommon doesn't belong in the top tier (and based on our performances in the super 8's it's hard to argue that we do!), we are effectively saying that only 7/8 teams belong in the top tier competition. Is that what people want? The sam maguire contested by 8 teams (and I'm ignoring the fact that dublin are ahead of everyone else).

[seafoid]

Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking about how Armagh and Roscommon game should have been the final of the second tier competition and that Roscommon don't belong in the race for Sam.

This debate has gained obvious traction and I'd be concerned about where it will end up:

How would we decide who should be in the so-called Super 8s if we moved to this new tiered format. If teams like Roscommon don't belong with the big boys then where do you draw the line.  Kildare were beaten in every game this year in Division 1 this year.  Should they be there. They were beaten by Carlow in their first round of Leinster, but they have went on to be on of the stories of the championship.   What about Cavan, who gave Tyrone a good game this year and like Roscommon have just been promoted to Div 1, having been relegated last year.  What about Meath who nearly knocked out Tyrone this year and have been slumbering in Division 2?

Meath would be Junior C

[Cunny Funt]

Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking

Stopped reading after that. Nobody with any sense pays any attention to Brolly. I didn't watch the Sunday game last night but i bet he didn't talk about the games and how they were won and lost like he is paid to do.

[pbat]

Do away with Provincial Championships or if each council wants to run one fine but nothing to do with All Ireland. 8 groups of  4 with a team from each league 1-4. Play 3 games and top 2 in each group go into the race for the Sam Maguire, bottom 2 into the Paudi O Se, B,Intermediate whatever you want to call it.

Means at the start of the championship everybody is entered into the All Ireland but in most cases the Division 1 and 2 team will make it into senior championship last 16 though still potential for a surprise from division 3/4 like laois this year.

[APM]

Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking

Stopped reading after that. Nobody with any sense pays any attention to Brolly. I didn't watch the Sunday game last night but i bet he didn't talk about the games and how they were won and lost like he is paid to do.

Lovely manners, not surprising given your moniker! Nice to see you have such an open mind.

I get it - you don't like Joe Brolly.  What difference does it make whether my post was prompted by something said by Joe Brolly or Joe Bloggs.  My first line could have been that John Horan is going to look at a tiered championship.  Would that have made my post any more valid?

[mrdeeds]

By Joe's logic 6 will play for Sam and 27 for the Paidi cup.

[J70]

You could enter those who don't make the Super 8 into the Paudi Cup, but would the likes of say, Mayo this year, have any interest? Seriously doubt it.

So the earlier posited 8 groups of 4, top two into Sam and rest into Paudi might work.

Although, again, given only three games each in a group, there is always a chance a perceived top tier team might not make the Sam section in a particular year and so wouldn't bother their arse.

Maybe home and away games against everyone in the group to ensure the cream rises? Then each county gets a minimum seven championship games each summer, with the finalists getting ten.

[Blue Island]

Do away with Provincial Championships or if each council wants to run one fine but nothing to do with All Ireland. 8 groups of  4 with a team from each league 1-4. Play 3 games and top 2 in each group go into the race for the Sam Maguire, bottom 2 into the Paudi O Se, B,Intermediate whatever you want to call it.

Means at the start of the championship everybody is entered into the All Ireland but in most cases the Division 1 and 2 team will make it into senior championship last 16 though still potential for a surprise from division 3/4 like laois this year.

This makes some sense, albeit there still is a big emotional attachment for the provincial championship.

This idea of a tiered championship should only be considered if those that are likely to be in the second tier are in favour. I doubt they would be.

If there is a tiered system you are effectively forcing a player to play a secondary competition simply because of where they were born. I am aware that happens at club level, but I am sick of that argument. If you are county standard, you can play junior championship for your club, but at least you will ultimately have an outlet for your talent at County level. There is no where else to go for an inter county player.

If you were a player like Matty Forde for instance, under some of the proposals he would rarely, if ever, play in the Sam Maguire. The logical thing to do in circumstance where a great player is denied senior championship is allow them to transfer. That's the last thing anyone would want.

Mismatches have always occurred and there was not much said about it. People just moan about it because they have to watch it on TV more regularly now. In a proposal like pbat's everyone has their day out, but the GAA can sell the rights to the latter stages and then we can all stop moaning.

[APM]

By Joe's logic 6 will play for Sam and 27 for the Paidi cup.

This is where I'm at and I think tiering doesn't solve any of the problems it is meant to solve, but creates a whole lot of other issues! Let's be clear -
there is no super 8 - in recent years there has been one super team and one plausible challenger!

Let's say you took the teams in Division 1 this year, and the two promoted teams, that leaves 10.

• Super 1 (Dublin)
• Elite 3 or 4  Galway, Tyrone, Monaghan and maybe Donegal
• Very good 2 or 3: Kerry, Mayo, maybe Kildare
• Decent: Roscommon, Cavan

So if we are saying that having a tiered competition will reduce the number of mismatches, then consider the number of hammerings within this small group this year and last year:
Last year:
Dublin bt Monaghan by 10pts
Dublin bt Tyrone by 12 pts
Mayo bt Roscommon by 16pts
Kerry bt Galway by 8pts
Tyrone bt Roscommon by 18pts
Roscommon bt Galway by 9pts

Also, teams from outside this top group were recently beaten by teams that wouldn't make it into the top 10. 
Carlow bt Kildare in 2018
Armagh bt Kildare in 2017
Tipp bt Cavan in 2017
Fermanagh bt Monaghan in 2018

Two years ago, Monaghan were beaten by Longford. 

Less about football now is on the day.  That used to be one of the real beauties of the game - sure its all on the day! Its more predictable these days and there is no doubt that is affecting attendances.  But when you do get an underdog winning, it is very special. Carlow beating Kildare this year was one of the highlights of the season. However, there can be as much of a gap between the teams ranked in 1 to 8, and the teams ranked 5 to 20.  I think when you realise that, you come to the conclusion that having a tiered championship isn't the answer. However, it might give RTE an excuse to show fewer games. 

[Syferus]

Most teams from 2-18 could beat each other if the wind is blowing the right way with injuries, inclination and referees. Dublin are literally the only team immune from that, simply because they are ridiculously deep and ridiculously better than everyone.

Brolly's just talking his usual shíte to generate some publicity amidst a complete PR failure in the Super 8. Very few are excited about senior IC football right now.

[APM]

Most teams from 2-18 could beat each other if the wind is blowing the right way with injuries, inclination and referees. Dublin are literally the only team immune from that, simply because they are ridiculously deep and ridiculously better than everyone.

Brolly's just talking his usual shíte to generate some publicity amidst a complete PR failure in the Super 8. Very few are excited about senior IC football right now.

Broadly agree - concern is that this has got traction and there seems to be a momentum towards it.  You really wouldn't know what kind of shit the GAA hierarchy would come up with next, given that these are people that brought us the Sky Deal and the Super 8s!

[BennyCake]

Three words - OPEN f**king DRAW!!!