Author Topic: Ulsters perspective on coaching  (Read 2037 times)

manfromdelmonte

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 11:32:11 PM »
Fast ball and good forwards will beat most defensive systems

Jayop

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2018, 11:58:02 PM »
Fast ball and good forwards will beat most defensive systems

And most attacking systems!!  :)

Cunny Funt

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 12:04:02 AM »
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.

What utter nonsense. Donegal took defensive football to the highest plane it's ever been seen from a top level team. Cavan were ultra defensive before Mattie took over and Monaghan are equally as defensive as Tyrone, they just had a pure class forward inside at all time that Tyrone have been missing.
Tyrone in the business end of the championship as it's called by some were on different level to others with their defensive system in 2003 v Fermanagh 0-5, V Kerry 0-6 and v Armagh 0-9 is all that was conceded on route to winning that All Ireland.

Donegal in 2012 in comparison conceded 1-10,1-11,0-13 in their quarter,semi and All Ireland final that year.

greatpoint

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 12:41:11 AM »
Anyone who had Tyrone or Monaghan hyped up for All-Ireland success in recent years only has themselves to blame.

blewuporstuffed

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 09:01:48 AM »
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.

What utter nonsense. Donegal took defensive football to the highest plane it's ever been seen from a top level team. Cavan were ultra defensive before Mattie took over and Monaghan are equally as defensive as Tyrone, they just had a pure class forward inside at all time that Tyrone have been missing.
Tyrone in the business end of the championship as it's called by some were on different level to others with their defensive system in 2003 v Fermanagh 0-5, V Kerry 0-6 and v Armagh 0-9 is all that was conceded on route to winning that All Ireland.

Donegal in 2012 in comparison conceded 1-10,1-11,0-13 in their quarter,semi and All Ireland final that year.

Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.
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blewuporstuffed

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2018, 09:07:43 AM »
So your blaming "constant rule changes"  isn't right.

Maybe defenders were better coached or taught how to tackle back in the old days?

Do you honestly believe that?

My point is a defender will now quite regularly get sent off for 2/3 pretty innocuous fouls in a game that may not have earned so much as a second glance in the past. Scoreable frees are now much easier to 'earn'
We have changed the game to the point where we now almost expect a 'tick' or a card of some colour for pretty much every foul given.
You can not defend in the same way as you did 10 years ago. Defenders simply cannot take the risk. This has led to the inevitable tactic of bringing extra men back to help out.
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haranguerer

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2018, 09:40:38 AM »
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?

haranguerer

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2018, 09:43:43 AM »
So your blaming "constant rule changes"  isn't right.

Maybe defenders were better coached or taught how to tackle back in the old days?


This is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever seen on the board. Defensive play now is light years ahead of where it was in the past, even the recent past. Tackling is infinitely more disciplined, due to refs blowing quicker, and advantage, all of which makes for a much better game.

If you think the current crop of poor games is a permanent malaise, then well and good, but it isn't down to the defensive play, which has improved immeasurably - its down to attacking play not being focused on (for now)

blewuporstuffed

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2018, 09:46:24 AM »
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?

Agree with you 100% here
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sambostar

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2018, 10:40:31 AM »
have to laugh at the way the game in the "old days" is viewed through such rose-tinted glasses. I flicked through and found re-run of the 1987 and 1988 AI Finals between Cork and Meath on eirSport over the last few nights. It was awful to watch. Low-scoring with lads horsing the ball as hard as they could down the other end of the pitch. The standard of free-taking was muck too off the ground - the likes of Stafford regularly not able to reach the posts with a free from the 45 off the ground. Compare that to the likes of Rock or Murphy or Beggan kicking frees off the ground currently.

Difference back then was the commentators & pundits weren't just focussed on running down the game they were watching or fixated on talking about the general "state" of the game.

Itchy

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2018, 11:21:34 AM »
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?

Agree with you 100% here

Agree too. There are slight different shades of what teams are doing but basically it is the same principle. The difference in Donegal and Fermanagh is that Donegal have the players to break with speed and power and the forwards to drive in early ball to if they can. Fermanagh dont have the same options so their counters are much slower and patient and risk adverse.

I had to laugh at the shite brolly and co were writing about the great change in Cavan from defensive football to attack. Total nonsense of the highest order.

Blowitupref

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2018, 12:15:21 PM »
The tactical blueprint for this ultra defensive low risk football began with Jimmy McGuinness and there have been subtle variations of this style of play ever since by clubs and counties all over the land, not just Ulster. At least McGuinness was a visionary with his own ideas and convictions even if it was often putrid stuff to watch.

There are far too many 'super coaches' with big egos who over estimate their own influence. Low risk safe possession based football will often prevent you from getting embarrassed against better opposition but ultimately it is players who will decide who wins matches.   

What’s wrong with this?

It's horrible to watch, I thought that much was obvious. If I want to watch slow lateral build up play I'll watch the rugby super league but it's not a spectacle I enjoy.

It's based on the fear of making a mistake when in possession and a 'don't give the ball away at all costs' mentality for fear of what might happen when the possession is turned over. It leads to players overplaying laterally and backwards just for the sake of keeping the ball, with absolutely no purpose or attacking intent.

The worst excesses of it lead to little or no kicking until inside the scoring zone and any player who kicks it away needlessly will be hauled in front of the video analysis committee the following Tuesday to be reprimanded by management. The game is ruled by stats and over analysis, just look at the GAA section of a newspaper after a match and witness the countless stats about no of possessions, no of attacks etc etc as an example of how rigid the game has become. It has become a whole industry in itself though and players do concern themselves with stats and ratings when analysing performance. All of this stuff is mind numbingly boring however and often creates robotic pre programmed players unable to think on their feet.

Whilst I agree there are a fair amount of bullshit merchants making a killing on blagging a defensive systems in club football, in intercounty football were resources are so unevenly spread amongst the counties then it’s utter nonsense to suggest that the team with less resources at its disposal shouldn’t avail of tactics to give them the best chance of being competitive. You seriously can’t prefer to watch Kerry beat Clare by 30 odd points rather than Fermanagh utilising their gameplan to turn over Monaghan? If Fermanagh went toe to toe with Donegal in the Ulster final then they’d get done over by 20 points. They just don’t have the resources to man mark McBreaty and Murphy or the fire power to out score them. So what would be your plan then to make them competitive if they don’t go defensive, try to keep the game close and grab enough scores in a low scoring game to sneak it? I for one will find that much more intriguing than a 30 point wash out.
this. Carlow are getting it tight for their style. But it got them to a Leinster semi, which is a significant aachievement for them. To me the 6 county sides haven't progressed the tactics and kicked on, and with the players they have, they should. Donegal did, a bit, but the big boys figured it out.

I think the blanket is a spent tactic and we will see a change in the medium term away from it.

Jesus wept, 2nd time in a day.. So are you freestaters gonna run with the 6 counties now instead of Ulster?!

Because defensive football and the blanket is a 6 county invention that still dominates. Monaghan and Cavan didn't partake, so you can't state it's an Ulster thing.

I'm not having a pop. Just I expect more from Tyrone and Armagh than I do Carlow. The pioneers of this style should be evolving it, and they aren't. Someone referenced Catanaccio earlier. The Italian lock defence. It has been tweaked and improved for 60 years, and it always allowed  a basis for attacking flair. Donegal tried the 2.0, mixed results.

What utter nonsense. Donegal took defensive football to the highest plane it's ever been seen from a top level team. Cavan were ultra defensive before Mattie took over and Monaghan are equally as defensive as Tyrone, they just had a pure class forward inside at all time that Tyrone have been missing.
Tyrone in the business end of the championship as it's called by some were on different level to others with their defensive system in 2003 v Fermanagh 0-5, V Kerry 0-6 and v Armagh 0-9 is all that was conceded on route to winning that All Ireland.

Donegal in 2012 in comparison conceded 1-10,1-11,0-13 in their quarter,semi and All Ireland final that year.

Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Scores Tyrone conceded in 2003 says they were fairly good in the defensive department. Why are Tyrone conceding big scores nowadays is it because that ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling is no longer there?
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bigarsedkeeper

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2018, 05:25:03 PM »
Such a load of shite.

Most teams are playing the same way (or are trying to), or have the basis of their play in that defensive set up - the difference is the bigger counties have mastered the defensive part and are able to break at speed which makes it a different game to watch. Other counties have more laboured forward play, but it too will develop. Compare donegal 2011 with 2012 - the foundations were laid in 2011, and built on in 2012.

In the monaghan v fermanagh game, contrary to the popular narrative, there were occasions in the game where every player, except the fermanagh goalie, were in the monaghan half of the pitch. Doesn't fit the lazy narrative tho, does it?

Agree with you 100% here

Agree too. There are slight different shades of what teams are doing but basically it is the same principle. The difference in Donegal and Fermanagh is that Donegal have the players to break with speed and power and the forwards to drive in early ball to if they can. Fermanagh dont have the same options so their counters are much slower and patient and risk adverse.

I had to laugh at the shite brolly and co were writing about the great change in Cavan from defensive football to attack. Total nonsense of the highest order.

100% right. Even the Dubs - they're just better at it. If you have the players to break quickly and 1 or 2 very good players up front it looks completely different. I saw on Twitter Brolly talking about Murphy, McBrearty and Brennan up front - Murphy is closer to centre half back than full forward.

They have a point in that if Kerry, Galway or Mayo try to be defensive they'll never beat the Dubs but if any other team goes attacking the Dubs they'll be ripped apart.

Therealdonald

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 06:59:39 PM »
So your blaming "constant rule changes"  isn't right.

Maybe defenders were better coached or taught how to tackle back in the old days?


This is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever seen on the board. Defensive play now is light years ahead of where it was in the past, even the recent past. Tackling is infinitely more disciplined, due to refs blowing quicker, and advantage, all of which makes for a much better game.

If you think the current crop of poor games is a permanent malaise, then well and good, but it isn't down to the defensive play, which has improved immeasurably - its down to attacking play not being focused on (for now)

Hmm I think you need to be more specific when comparing defensive play though. I think group defensive play has improved with much more turnovers from 2 and 3 men surrounding the player and bottling him up.

On the other hand though I think defenders as a whole are far worse now in 1 on 1 situations than they would have been in years gone by. I agree that the rules are somewhat bent towards more attacking play, but refs have got a lot cuter about certain tricks that forwards may have had in order to buy a free.

Its a lazy analysis btw to blame this on Ulster football, or recent Ulster football, in the 16 All-Ireland's played since 2002 (not counting replays) there has been 33-406 scored, which equates to 2-25 between the two teams. in the preceeding 16 finals there was 18-354 scored which equates to 1-22 scored between the two teams.

So if an outsider was to go by just pure stats and scores, he would consider the past 16 years as infinitely more impressive and high scoring than the supposed golden years in the 90s. Just food for thought.

Dont listen to the pundits. Think for yourselves.

Jayop

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Re: Ulsters perspective on coaching
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 08:28:55 PM »
Anyone that thinks the football Tyrone played 03-08 was anything like the defensive style that is played by them and other sides now, need to go back and re-watch some of the videos.

Tyrone 03, brought a ferocious hunger and intensity to their tackling but to say they where a defensive team back then is utter utter nonsense.
Donegal where the first team i seen to go ultra defensive,with 13/14 men behind the ball and  and play on the counter attack, with a lot of teams following suit since.

Armagh & Tyrone in the 00s were a completely different animal.

Exactly. If a team went out and played now the way Tyrone played the day they were called puke football they'd be lauded as a great attacking outfit. They pressed up on everything, tackled with 2/3 men in the opposition 45 the entire game. That was how they defended and it was a system, but it's black and white compared to the defensive systems employed by almost every county now. No players then turned and ran back to their own 45, they turned and ran towards whoever had the ball and tried to wrestle it off them.