Author Topic: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's  (Read 7346 times)

Orchard park

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2018, 10:21:49 PM »
The biggest issue tyerevis the Crokes park company cheque underwriting a personal court case.

Dwyers chairman sounds a prize catch doesn't he

Jinxy

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2018, 10:31:53 PM »
You can't have people in positions of authority whose mouths work faster than their brains.
No matter how well-intentioned and hard-working they may be.
I'd say Kimmage's inbox is fit to explode with all the emails he's getting from disgruntled parents, coaches etc. from all over the country.
A significant chunk of those will be people with chips on their shoulder that young Johnny isn't getting picked, but given the number of clubs and volunteers we have, I'd say he will get plenty of mileage out of this yet.
We all know the nonsense that goes on, much of it being low level local politics, but I think we're about to find out how robust our 'complaints procedures' are.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

Hound

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2018, 10:32:17 PM »
The biggest issue tyerevis the Crokes park company cheque underwriting a personal court case.

Dwyers chairman sounds a prize catch doesn't he

I don't have a problem with the GAA footing the bill. The chairman was acting in his role as administrator of the club. It's only right that actions you take in that role are covered by GAA insurance, otherwise nobody would do those roles.

The cheque was written by Garwyn Ireland, who are loss adjusters. So this may not have cost the GAA a penny

However, after been found to have done wrong and payout made, the chairman should clearly be made stand down.

Orchard park

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2018, 10:34:10 PM »
Croke park come clean on it then....

Chairmen that don't act the bollix  don't get sued successfully

gallsman

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2018, 10:34:19 PM »
The biggest issue tyerevis the Crokes park company cheque underwriting a personal court case.

Dwyers chairman sounds a prize catch doesn't he

I don't have a problem with the GAA footing the bill. The chairman was acting in his role as administrator of the club. It's only right that actions you take in that role are covered by GAA insurance, otherwise nobody would do those roles.

The cheque was written by Garwyn Ireland, who are loss adjusters. So this may not have cost the GAA a penny

However, after been found to have done wrong and payout made, the chairman should clearly be made stand down.

The case was around defamation, which was done in a personal capacity. It's specifically clarified in the article that he sued Howley, not the club.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Orchard park

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2018, 10:37:08 PM »
The biggest issue tyerevis the Crokes park company cheque underwriting a personal court case.

Dwyers chairman sounds a prize catch doesn't he

I don't have a problem with the GAA footing the bill. The chairman was acting in his role as administrator of the club. It's only right that actions you take in that role are covered by GAA insurance, otherwise nobody would do those roles.

The cheque was written by Garwyn Ireland, who are loss adjusters. So this may not have cost the GAA a penny

However, after been found to have done wrong and payout made, the chairman should clearly be made stand down.

The case was around defamation, which was done in a personal capacity. It's specifically clarified in the article that he sued Howley, not the club.

Exactly

So how does CP bail him out

Hound

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2018, 10:39:09 PM »
The biggest issue tyerevis the Crokes park company cheque underwriting a personal court case.

Dwyers chairman sounds a prize catch doesn't he

I don't have a problem with the GAA footing the bill. The chairman was acting in his role as administrator of the club. It's only right that actions you take in that role are covered by GAA insurance, otherwise nobody would do those roles.

The cheque was written by Garwyn Ireland, who are loss adjusters. So this may not have cost the GAA a penny

However, after been found to have done wrong and payout made, the chairman should clearly be made stand down.

The case was around defamation, which was done in a personal capacity. It's specifically clarified in the article that he sued Howley, not the club.
But it was said in his role as chairman. The reason he said it was to help his argument for getting rid of "the Driver" as coach of a team.
Doesn't seem to matter he was sued personally. I don't know how exactly the insurance works, but given the Loss Adjusters wrote the cheque, it seems they were happy it was a GAA role he was sued under.
Not defending the chairman, and I would be happy if he himself had to pay it as it was a horrid thing to say, but GAA can't pick and choose when their insurance covers the actions of their administrators.

Jinxy

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2018, 10:41:51 PM »
Why would GAA insurance even cover something like defamation?
If you were any use you'd be playing.

gallsman

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2018, 10:42:13 PM »
The biggest issue tyerevis the Crokes park company cheque underwriting a personal court case.

Dwyers chairman sounds a prize catch doesn't he

I don't have a problem with the GAA footing the bill. The chairman was acting in his role as administrator of the club. It's only right that actions you take in that role are covered by GAA insurance, otherwise nobody would do those roles.

The cheque was written by Garwyn Ireland, who are loss adjusters. So this may not have cost the GAA a penny

However, after been found to have done wrong and payout made, the chairman should clearly be made stand down.

The case was around defamation, which was done in a personal capacity. It's specifically clarified in the article that he sued Howley, not the club.
But it was said in his role as chairman. The reason he said it was to help his argument for getting rid of "the Driver" as coach of a team.
Doesn't seem to matter he was sued personally. I don't know how exactly the insurance works, but given the Loss Adjusters wrote the cheque, it seems they were happy it was a GAA role he was sued under.
Not defending the chairman, and I would be happy if he himself had to pay it as it was a horrid thing to say, but GAA can't pick and choose when their insurance covers the actions of their administrators.

He stood up and lied as to why the coach was dismissed. Unless this was agreed by the committee in advance, he did it personally, rather than as a representative of the club.

Regardless, the legal case was the coach Vs Howley, not O'Dwyer's or the wider GAA.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Hound

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2018, 10:46:44 PM »
Why would GAA insurance even cover something like defamation?
Sure talking is most of what a chairman does!

This was a horrible and wrong thing to say, but it was clearly in his role of chairman of the club. And all chairman, secretaries, etc. should be properly covered by insurance in my opinion. But 100% he should be removed from the office.

I've given my opinion, which clearly some disagree with, but I'm bowing out now rather than continuing to repeat myself!

Asal Mor

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2018, 11:04:25 PM »
I think it's a good argument Hound. Maybe the cheque isn't as suspicious as it appeared and it could well be genuine that Ryan felt he couldn't comment publicly on the case. I don't think the article even mentioned what Garwyn Ireland are. As you said, it might not have cost the GAA a penny(though insurance companies always make you pay in the end).

heffo

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2018, 01:45:25 AM »
Why would GAA insurance even cover something like defamation?

I’d imagine it’s a catch all cover for GAA officers that they will be underwritten for issues arising discharging their role (however hairbrained they may be)

trileacman

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2018, 04:26:01 AM »
I thought it was another nothing article from Kimmage about a dispute at club level between two men. Is every coach who was ever ran out of a club to get a full page spread on their grievances in the sindo? “I said, he said” that’s all I see in that article.

It would be very easy to take the taxi drivers word at face value but like any situation I’m sure there’s two sides to this story. The problem with Kimmage’s writing is that conjecture is often presented as fact.

Really?!

Reads like corruption of the highest order to me.

I could spend all night dissecting the piece but I'll give you my top grievances with it.

1. Why is not presented in traditional interview style instead of this quasi-fiction like prose? Why is the parent not simply interviewed and given the chance to present his version of events whilst his account is queried by the journalist? Is that not how these things are done? There's this account of the meeting in 2016.

Quote
A month later, on January 13, 2016, the parents of the (now) under 14 hurlers were invited to meet the club to discuss the new season. It was opened by the chairman, Liam Howley, and a new coaching team was unveiled but the parents were more interested in what had happened to the old coaching team.

Parent: "Before we go forward with any of this, the committee should at least explain why the (last coach was) dismissed?"

Chairman: "(The Driver) was dismissed by the committee."

Parent: "Why?"

Chairman: "Some of the committee members found him difficult to deal with."

Parent: "For what reason, given the success of the hurlers, was he dismissed?"

Chairman: "Two years ago he inappropriately laid his hands on a child."

Parent: "That statement is wholly inappropriate. It is disgraceful. You should be ashamed of yourself. You knocked on his door and asked him to come back to O'Dwyer's, so you clearly have no belief in the accusation you are now making."

Chairman: "How do you know that I knocked on his door?"

Parent: "He told me . . . Did you consult any of the parents about this?"

Chairman: "We have a committee to organise these matters. They don't consult with parents."

Parent: "What procedure did the committee use to dismiss the coaching staff for the hurlers?"

Chairman: "The committee voted on it."

Parent: "I'm asking you a simple question. What procedure did the committee use before making the decision to sack the most successful coaching team that club have had in years? For example, did you consult with the parents?"

Chairman: "We have a committee. We don't consult with parents."

Parent: "I am asking you as chairman of O'Dwyer's for the fourth time, what procedures did the committee use before dismissing this coaching team?"

Chairman: "They voted on it."

Parent: "Okay, you answered the question. There was no procedure."

Chairman: "Okay."

I mean is this a word for word account from the meeting? Was the precise nature of remarks recorded in the minutes and provided to Kimmage or is this simply an involved party's recollection of a meeting held 2 years ago? If it is why isn't it attributed to the person/persons who recounted it?



2. There's this.

Quote
His wife had urged him to stay calm but Howley's comments had pushed him to the edge. He stood-up and fixed the chairman with a gaze: "I'm going to make sure you regret every word you've said."

Obliviously "the driver" has made this a personal vendetta against Howley and it's clear through out the piece; by trying to sue him directly, by being pissy about the apology not being worded as he wanted, by running to Kimmage to air this disagreement as publicly as possible against Howley (but obviously clinging to his own anonymity). To me it reeks of resentment, bitterness and a desire for revenge and that leads me to doubt was he as innocent a party in this as he claims and would this barely concealed bitterness not lead him to distort the facts to paint Howley in as poor a light as possible.

3. There's this bizzare, almost irrelevant, account in the middle.

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Meet the Parent. For 15 months he has been compiling a dossier on some trends at O'Dwyer's:

What right-minded individual "compiles a dossier" on the rows within a underage team, especially some mysterious exchange between a mother and coach? And why the pseudonym "the parent", is he a former G-man or something? If he's recounting the truth why hide it behind a pseudonym, it's O'Dwyers GAA club we're dealing with here, not the Scilian mafia.

Quote
Case A

A mother is watching from her car at an underage practice match as her son goes to ground and starts crying. She jumps from the car and comes running onto the field to check that he's okay.

"Did you see that?" she says, addressing the coach. "He was punched in the stomach!"

"No, that didn't happen" the coach replies.

"I saw it!" she says.

"It didn't happen," he insists.

But the strike is confirmed when she's walking back to her car. "I saw it," a woman on the sideline observes. "He was definitely punched."

Another night. She watches her son playing really well but he's upset when he returns to the car: "I scored more goals than anyone else and the coaches said well done to everyone but not to me."

"Don't worry," she says. "I'm sure they didn't mean it."

But she's not sure.

So who's the coach here? Who's the parent? Is this the taxi driver who's the coach here having the row, I'm confused by this bit. Anyway Kimmage goes on to say that this woman emailed the chairman of Dublin County Board to complain that the coach said well done to the other kids and not her kid and this is evidence of mistreatment of her child. Now if she sent it to me you'd be sure I'd not be dignifying it with a response, in fact I'd find it very hard to to email her back telling her not to be so precious about her son.

Quote
Case B

The mother of a young footballer and his coach are arguing on the sideline. It's no big deal. There's nothing to see here. It's how the coach likes to do business. "If there are issues let me know and we won't have a problem," he had said. There are some issues. She lets him know. He doesn't take it very well. And now there's a problem.

Apart from the opening line that paragraph is as clear as mud. It's incredibly ambiguous, so much so that all it achieves is that the reader's mind is free to interpret it with as much prejudice as they can muster. What are the issues? What does she let him know? How does he not take it well? What's the problem? There's more known about the dark side of the moon than there is about this altercation on the sideline of a pitch.

Quote
It is perhaps just a coincidence that her son is no longer deemed worthy of the 'Player of the Week' award. It is perhaps just a coincidence that while other kids are being greeted like the Messiah her boy is being ignored.

To me this is just another jilted mother, pissy that her son isn't getting enough "player of the week" awards. How can a man who exposed Armstrong as a serial drugs cheat commit this trivial affair to print as some sort of example of a festering "scandal" in the GAA?
 
Quote
The mother writes a letter to the O'Dwyer's games promotions officer and arranges to meet the club's child welfare officer to discuss how her son has been treated. The meeting is cancelled by text an hour before they are scheduled to sit down. She then receives a letter from the club secretary:

"The Executive Committee followed the GAA Code of Behaviour guidelines and passed your letter to the Children's Officers of the Club for consideration. It is their decision that this is not a child welfare issue. The Executive Committee supports their decision."

The mother makes several attempts to contact Aileen Connolly, the Dublin County Board children's officer but there is no response. Her son leaves the club and joins Fingallians.

A child not receiving enough "player of the week" awards is not a child welfare issue. Children's officers and DCB children's officers are busy trying to prevent sexual assaults or physical or verbal abuse of kids. FFS they haven't time to be dealing with your moany complaints.


Quote
Case C

Three months after they became the first team to win a hurling league for the club, 15 boys have withdrawn from the O'Dwyer's under 14s. Seven have written letters to the County Board:

"Hi, my name is *****. I am 12 years old. My coaches voted me the most improved player of the year. Last year we went unbeaten and won our league. This year my two coaches got sacked by the club and I have no team to play with.

"I love hurling and I don't know what to do. I'm annoyed at the club because I played under (the Driver and his assistant) for eight years. My Dad says I'm not allowed to transfer to a new club. The people who sacked my coaches are a bunch of shams and have never seen us play. Can you please talk to them and tell them to make the club better?"

Maybe it's me but can many of you imagine, in this day and age, 12 year old boys sitting down to write letters of grievances to the DCB? I mean if it's of their own volition why wouldn't they email them, or contact them on FB or something that kids use nowadays. I can't imagine them coming up with the idea of doing it so I'd be suspicious a parent suggested that they should do it and give them a hand at it. And that looks quite like exploitation to me.

Quote
The Parent was starting to despair until he turned on the radio one morning, Today with Sean O'Rourke, and heard a guy from the GAA making a lot of sense: "We must remember - particularly when we are talking about young people - that we are developing them not just as players but as people that will go out in society," Gearóid ó Maoilmhichíl told O'Rourke. "And if they learn something good that's developmental . . . they will transfer that in later life as well."

Gearóid ó Maoilmhichíl is the national children's officer at the GAA. The Parent sent him a letter by email:

Gearoid a Chara,

I determined to attempt to get in touch with you after hearing your interview on RTE . . . I thought you sounded very sincere on the issue . . . I believe that two of my children and my wife have been extremely badly treated by members of the O'Dwyer's GAA Club . . . I believe that I can clearly demonstrate that such behaviour by O'Dwyer's has become endemic within that club and that this behaviour has seriously negatively impacted on numerous children, parents, coaches and members not to mention Gaelic Games in the area.

I further believe that this appalling culture has been allowed to fester within O'Dwyer's club due to the apparent total indifference of the Dublin GAA County Board. I've attached numerous complaints from people to the County Board. You will note that in the vast majority of cases the parents complaints have, to date, been totally ignored to the extent that in most cases the parents never even received an acknowledgement that their complaint had been received.

Yet on 14th February 2016, the O'Dwyer's secretary sent an email to parents claiming that O'Dwyer's had the complete support of the County Board in this matter. My concerns therefore are twofold: (1) Numerous issues with O'Dwyer's . . . (2) The almost total apparent indifference to these issues, when parents have made complaints to the County Board.

Quote
Our children just want to play Gaelic Games. I request that the Office of the National Juvenile Officer step-in and assist us, or at least listen to us and give us some advice. I fully realise there are numerous complex issues involved in all of this. For the sake of our children, I would very much like to meet with you as soon as possible to see if some arrangement can be made to allow our children to continue with their love of playing Gaelic Games.



It's been clear enough at the start that this lad has personal involvement in this debacle and it doesn't seem that, despite his insistence, it's his wife and kids at the forefront of the disagreement (at least I think it's clear, it's hard to f**king know who's involved in what story in this maze of pseudonyms.) So it's pretty cynical to say it's his wife and kids who've been treated shabbily when it's mainly himself throwing himself in the middle of AGM disagreements. There's also all this "our children" horseshit that's just gombeen spake straight from the Healy-Rae or Michael Martin vernacular.


4. There's this inference that there's something shady about future DG Tom Ryan getting back to this fella about his problem which is strange given that if you contacted the GAA with a problem would ya not be delighted such a senior figure was involving himself in your complaint.

There's also an inference that the cheque was some dodgy scam coming from a 3rd party, Hound has clarified that issue possibly.

There's an inference that Ryan refusing to speak on the matter is further evidence of a high level conspiracy in the GAA echelons against the O'Dwyers GAA, 2015, U-13 hurling management team (or OGTFUTHMT for short). Perhaps this can be explained by the fact that the taxi man contacted Tom Ryan through a confidential helpline and as such is bound by the terms of the confidential helpline not to discuss the terms of the case with the first national newspaper who phones his office. I can easily imagine the GAA's legal team, having just recently shelled out 20k in defamation compo, telling the involved parties to keep their gobs shut for the foreseeable future for fear the court-happy complainant would seek further damages if they tried to spin their side of proceedings.



Maybe it's just me but I find it a storm in a teacup. I could write a tome exceeding the volume of "War And Peace" entitled "the manager, player and family fallouts of Trillick GAA" if I wanted so I don't see this event as terribly newsworthy, especially for a national newspaper with such a predominant circulation. Moreover I see it as an incredibly cynical manoevere by all involved, the complainants, the GAA top brass politicians, Kimmage, by using kids to further their own ends. The complaints tell ya they're "doing it for the children" rather than defending their own bruised egos. The GAA brass are throwing about the cliche of "developing them not just as players but as people that will go out in society" as they scale the corporation ladder. Kimmage is using the affair to create scandal, controversy and of course an increase in circulation and his own personal relevance.

The truth is none of them give a rats ass about kids.
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thewobbler

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2018, 07:51:32 AM »
What I don’t like about this article, much as I didn’t like about his previous one, is that he would like to convince the reader that this is a GAA issue, when my belief is that this is the sort of personality clash which haunts every voluntary organisation from time-to-time.

He has run this story over the dozens, maybe hundreds, of similar petty disputes that he has compiled, because he managed to find a link to top brass. Which only exists because the GAA has a grievance procedure that actually lead all the way there.

The one thing though that strikes/worries me here is that the lack of opportunity for children to transfer from a club they’re disaffected with, is probably the biggest factor in a clash of heads going from a sneaky headbutt to a year long vendetta.

If as an association we want to prevent these circumstances arising, then we need a more expedient way to close it out i.e. should a patent be willing to pay a set fee, which would be set as a deterrent for trivial issues, but not a roadblock for major ones, their case for transfer can be held and judged by an independent central officer, who has the power of immediate decision. Maybe €500 or so.


Asal Mor

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Re: Kimmage article about the scandal at O Dwyer's
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2018, 09:02:22 AM »
Trileacman - excellent post and I'd agree with most of it. Certainly, some of the complaints about how the team was run do sound like the typical "my son is the centre of the universe, why can't you see that?" stuff, that happen in all clubs in all sports.

The accusation was very maliciously worded though and I don't think the "driver" was being pissy about the wording of the apology. He'd specifically said that he didn't want the club to foot the bill for Howley's carry on, but Howley made it sound like it had.

I think you're right about Ryan refusing to comment because this had arisen through the confidential helpline and as wobbler said,  the link to top brass exists only exists because the complaints procedure leads to them, which is a good thing.

I feel a bit taken in by the way the article was written and having read some of the posts here, think that aside from Howley, the other GAA officials involved, did nothing wrong here.