Joe Brolly

Started by randomtask, July 31, 2011, 05:28:31 PM

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Rossfan

Always respect your moderate views 6th Sam. ( The Angelas are a mirror image of TUV🙄,)
Not sure what you mean by "DUP Supremacy".
Like it or not most Unionists vote for the ****s but all they're doing is leading their electorate back to the 17th Century or at best hankering after the 1950s.
But they aren't supreme any more.

A civic forum, civic nationalism engaging with civic unionism and the 20% middle ground is the way to go.
Meanwhile SF, SDLP  FF, FG and anyone else need to be talking about what shape the new All Ireland entity might take.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Lar Naparka

Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 29, 2021, 11:16:33 AM
Who do the narrow minded extremists think they are going to unite with ?
It may be a wet dream for them to imagine all of Ireland being turned into a one party  South Armagh* like Sinn Féin Socialist Republic.
The 98% who live in the real world (incl most of SF) won't be having that.

*Apologies to any South Armagh people but I had to pick somewhere.

I respect your view Rossfan, but I don't fit into above category and I don't know of any other Irish in the north that do, and herein lies the problem I alluded to. Many in ROI have little or no insight understanding or empathy for the Irish in the North. It suits many to paint us as a cantankerous rabble ( though Angelo doesn't do much to counter that view😂) rather than actively engage with us in tackling DUP supremacy which remains the biggest barrier to progress on this island.
Great stuff!
As a southerner with an above average (for a free stater!) interest in the uification of this island, I appredciate that you represent the majority view amongst Nationalists north of the border- however, you do appreciate that you can come across to many as 'a cantankerous rabble.'
That shouldn't surprise you as it is the cantankeroous elements who grab the headlines.
I can say with conviction that the general view of the political situation north of the border is one of bewilderment.
I guess the majority down here take a simplistic view on northern affairs but...
You had your GFA that everyone (up there) signed up for and there's a clearly defined roadmap for unifiucation aand if evemts pan out as expected, there will be an all-ireland state. Such an entity never existed before, so what's the rush? People down here backed the GFA alll the way- the sectarian articles in our constitution were batted aside by overwhelming mnajorities so Southerners ask, what more can they do?
There's a vague idea that some nationalists are troublemakers, helll bent oin insulting the republic, yet 100% insisting that we shoulld be honoured to joiin u with them.
Your aggro boys will get a rude awakening if unity comes to pass.
They can roar and bawl and beat their drums and nobody will even notice them. After all, if you do a quick statistical check, those so-callled nationalists who want to continue the dogfight with Unioniosts, 'Free Staters' and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all will make uo no more that 2% of the island's population.
Peoplpe down here have an immense amount of latent goodwilll for moderate nationalism and will back unity when cross-community realationships have stablised.
The problem, in brief. for you and those who share your beliefs is that the loud mouths in your midst are delayiing the chances of a "Yes" vote for many years to come more than Arlene @ Co. ever could.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Angelo

Quote from: Rossfan on March 29, 2021, 12:13:20 PM
Always respect your moderate views 6th Sam. ( The Angelas are a mirror image of TUV🙄,)
Not sure what you mean by "DUP Supremacy".
Like it or not most Unionists vote for the ****s but all they're doing is leading their electorate back to the 17th Century or at best hankering after the 1950s.
But they aren't supreme any more.

A civic forum, civic nationalism engaging with civic unionism and the 20% middle ground is the way to go.
Meanwhile SF, SDLP  FF, FG and anyone else need to be talking about what shape the new All Ireland entity might take.

You have much more in common with the TUV than I ever will sunshine.

The truth seems to unsettle you however as does the future of this island.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Angelo

#5778
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 29, 2021, 12:59:47 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 29, 2021, 11:16:33 AM
Who do the narrow minded extremists think they are going to unite with ?
It may be a wet dream for them to imagine all of Ireland being turned into a one party  South Armagh* like Sinn Féin Socialist Republic.
The 98% who live in the real world (incl most of SF) won't be having that.

*Apologies to any South Armagh people but I had to pick somewhere.

I respect your view Rossfan, but I don't fit into above category and I don't know of any other Irish in the north that do, and herein lies the problem I alluded to. Many in ROI have little or no insight understanding or empathy for the Irish in the North. It suits many to paint us as a cantankerous rabble ( though Angelo doesn't do much to counter that view😂) rather than actively engage with us in tackling DUP supremacy which remains the biggest barrier to progress on this island.
Great stuff!
As a southerner with an above average (for a free stater!) interest in the uification of this island, I appredciate that you represent the majority view amongst Nationalists north of the border- however, you do appreciate that you can come across to many as 'a cantankerous rabble.'
That shouldn't surprise you as it is the cantankeroous elements who grab the headlines.
I can say with conviction that the general view of the political situation north of the border is one of bewilderment.
I guess the majority down here take a simplistic view on northern affairs but...
You had your GFA that everyone (up there) signed up for and there's a clearly defined roadmap for unifiucation aand if evemts pan out as expected, there will be an all-ireland state. Such an entity never existed before, so what's the rush? People down here backed the GFA alll the way- the sectarian articles in our constitution were batted aside by overwhelming mnajorities so Southerners ask, what more can they do?
There's a vague idea that some nationalists are troublemakers, helll bent oin insulting the republic, yet 100% insisting that we shoulld be honoured to joiin u with them.
Your aggro boys will get a rude awakening if unity comes to pass.
They can roar and bawl and beat their drums and nobody will even notice them. After all, if you do a quick statistical check, those so-callled nationalists who want to continue the dogfight with Unioniosts, 'Free Staters' and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all will make uo no more that 2% of the island's population.
Peoplpe down here have an immense amount of latent goodwilll for moderate nationalism and will back unity when cross-community realationships have stablised.
The problem, in brief. for you and those who share your beliefs is that the loud mouths in your midst are delayiing the chances of a "Yes" vote for many years to come more than Arlene @ Co. ever could.

On what grounds do those "loudmouths" delay reunification? The fact that freestaters don't want to take ownership of unavoidable fact you abandoned the north and watched on as northern nationalists were brutalized? That it's an uncomfortable truth that they don't want to recognise, maybe it's time for the Free State grow up and show some humility, some acceptance and some contrition for it?

It was wrong what the free state did, indefensible. How about some ownership of that rather than deflection tactics? Rather than talking about everything else other than the free state's willingness to facilitate and enable a sectarian statelet on this island, we talk about that specific matter?
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Cavan19

Quote from: Angelo on March 29, 2021, 01:22:23 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 29, 2021, 12:59:47 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 29, 2021, 11:16:33 AM
Who do the narrow minded extremists think they are going to unite with ?
It may be a wet dream for them to imagine all of Ireland being turned into a one party  South Armagh* like Sinn Féin Socialist Republic.
The 98% who live in the real world (incl most of SF) won't be having that.

*Apologies to any South Armagh people but I had to pick somewhere.

I respect your view Rossfan, but I don't fit into above category and I don't know of any other Irish in the north that do, and herein lies the problem I alluded to. Many in ROI have little or no insight understanding or empathy for the Irish in the North. It suits many to paint us as a cantankerous rabble ( though Angelo doesn't do much to counter that view😂) rather than actively engage with us in tackling DUP supremacy which remains the biggest barrier to progress on this island.
Great stuff!
As a southerner with an above average (for a free stater!) interest in the uification of this island, I appredciate that you represent the majority view amongst Nationalists north of the border- however, you do appreciate that you can come across to many as 'a cantankerous rabble.'
That shouldn't surprise you as it is the cantankeroous elements who grab the headlines.
I can say with conviction that the general view of the political situation north of the border is one of bewilderment.
I guess the majority down here take a simplistic view on northern affairs but...
You had your GFA that everyone (up there) signed up for and there's a clearly defined roadmap for unifiucation aand if evemts pan out as expected, there will be an all-ireland state. Such an entity never existed before, so what's the rush? People down here backed the GFA alll the way- the sectarian articles in our constitution were batted aside by overwhelming mnajorities so Southerners ask, what more can they do?
There's a vague idea that some nationalists are troublemakers, helll bent oin insulting the republic, yet 100% insisting that we shoulld be honoured to joiin u with them.
Your aggro boys will get a rude awakening if unity comes to pass.
They can roar and bawl and beat their drums and nobody will even notice them. After all, if you do a quick statistical check, those so-callled nationalists who want to continue the dogfight with Unioniosts, 'Free Staters' and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all will make uo no more that 2% of the island's population.
Peoplpe down here have an immense amount of latent goodwilll for moderate nationalism and will back unity when cross-community realationships have stablised.
The problem, in brief. for you and those who share your beliefs is that the loud mouths in your midst are delayiing the chances of a "Yes" vote for many years to come more than Arlene @ Co. ever could.

On what grounds do those "loudmouths" delay reunification? The fact that freestaters don't want to take ownership of unavoidable fact you abandoned the north and watched on as northern nationalists were brutalized? That it's an uncomfortable truth that they don't want to recognise, maybe it's time for the Free State grow up and show some humility, some acceptance and some contrition for it?

It was wrong what the free state did, indefensible. How about some ownership of that rather than deflection tactics? Rather than talking about everything else other than the free state's willingness to facilitate and enable a sectarian statelet on this island, we talk about that specific matter?

I wasn't even born, well not old enough to remember the troubles in the North.

I would like a United Ireland but reading some of the comments here i would suggest that some look forward instead of backwards. The past is history to a lot of people on this Island and the bitterness for some will never go away but it will not help get a united ireland.

I'm not going to get into a conversation on this with anyway just wanted to give a small input.

Angelo

Quote from: Cavan19 on March 29, 2021, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 29, 2021, 01:22:23 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 29, 2021, 12:59:47 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 29, 2021, 11:16:33 AM
Who do the narrow minded extremists think they are going to unite with ?
It may be a wet dream for them to imagine all of Ireland being turned into a one party  South Armagh* like Sinn Féin Socialist Republic.
The 98% who live in the real world (incl most of SF) won't be having that.

*Apologies to any South Armagh people but I had to pick somewhere.

I respect your view Rossfan, but I don't fit into above category and I don't know of any other Irish in the north that do, and herein lies the problem I alluded to. Many in ROI have little or no insight understanding or empathy for the Irish in the North. It suits many to paint us as a cantankerous rabble ( though Angelo doesn't do much to counter that view😂) rather than actively engage with us in tackling DUP supremacy which remains the biggest barrier to progress on this island.
Great stuff!
As a southerner with an above average (for a free stater!) interest in the uification of this island, I appredciate that you represent the majority view amongst Nationalists north of the border- however, you do appreciate that you can come across to many as 'a cantankerous rabble.'
That shouldn't surprise you as it is the cantankeroous elements who grab the headlines.
I can say with conviction that the general view of the political situation north of the border is one of bewilderment.
I guess the majority down here take a simplistic view on northern affairs but...
You had your GFA that everyone (up there) signed up for and there's a clearly defined roadmap for unifiucation aand if evemts pan out as expected, there will be an all-ireland state. Such an entity never existed before, so what's the rush? People down here backed the GFA alll the way- the sectarian articles in our constitution were batted aside by overwhelming mnajorities so Southerners ask, what more can they do?
There's a vague idea that some nationalists are troublemakers, helll bent oin insulting the republic, yet 100% insisting that we shoulld be honoured to joiin u with them.
Your aggro boys will get a rude awakening if unity comes to pass.
They can roar and bawl and beat their drums and nobody will even notice them. After all, if you do a quick statistical check, those so-callled nationalists who want to continue the dogfight with Unioniosts, 'Free Staters' and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all will make uo no more that 2% of the island's population.
Peoplpe down here have an immense amount of latent goodwilll for moderate nationalism and will back unity when cross-community realationships have stablised.
The problem, in brief. for you and those who share your beliefs is that the loud mouths in your midst are delayiing the chances of a "Yes" vote for many years to come more than Arlene @ Co. ever could.

On what grounds do those "loudmouths" delay reunification? The fact that freestaters don't want to take ownership of unavoidable fact you abandoned the north and watched on as northern nationalists were brutalized? That it's an uncomfortable truth that they don't want to recognise, maybe it's time for the Free State grow up and show some humility, some acceptance and some contrition for it?

It was wrong what the free state did, indefensible. How about some ownership of that rather than deflection tactics? Rather than talking about everything else other than the free state's willingness to facilitate and enable a sectarian statelet on this island, we talk about that specific matter?

I wasn't even born, well not old enough to remember the troubles in the North.

I would like a United Ireland but reading some of the comments here i would suggest that some look forward instead of backwards. The past is history to a lot of people on this Island and the bitterness for some will never go away but it will not help get a united ireland.

I'm not going to get into a conversation on this with anyway just wanted to give a small input.

It's fine when we are asked to look forward but when you have the usual suspects who keep bringing the past up then telling us to look forward when it's their own murky past in the conversation crosshairs then that's a different story.

It's alright for some to trash the IRA but they don't want to look at the fact their state did nothing when innocent nationalists were being beaten off the streets, shot dead in broad daylight and burned out their homes by or with the help of the state forces up north.

You lose all rights to lecture and pontificate when you did nothing to stop that.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

6th sam

Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.

Rossfan

I remember back when I was a gasúinín 1982 or so.
My mother asked me to deliver a parcel to a neighbour that she'd brought from town.
I went in, News came on the radio and after about 90 seconds he turned it off.
"Nothin on the News but the fkn North, mornin noon and night. Tow the fkn place out onto the Atlantic and sink it ta fk" he thundered.
I'd say he was representative of a significant minority.

I suspect that exasperation continued till 1998 and the GFA which would be viewed as them shower seeing some sense, even if it took up so much of the time of 2 Governments and a US President to make them see it.

Note - the above are not my views, just a snapshot of how many see ye ;)
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Lar Naparka

Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 03:27:39 PM
Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.
For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.) ;D
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

6th sam

Quote from: Rossfan on March 29, 2021, 04:02:35 PM
I remember back when I was a gasúinín 1982 or so.
My mother asked me to deliver a parcel to a neighbour that she'd brought from town.
I went in, News came on the radio and after about 90 seconds he turned it off.
"Nothin on the News but the fkn North, mornin noon and night. Tow the fkn place out onto the Atlantic and sink it ta fk" he thundered.
I'd say he was representative of a significant minority.

I suspect that exasperation continued till 1998 and the GFA which would be viewed as them shower seeing some sense, even if it took up so much of the time of 2 Governments and a US President to make them see it.

Note - the above are not my views, just a snapshot of how many see ye ;)

Thanks Ross, a refreshing bit of honesty. The expressed view above is what  Irish up here  resent, in much the same way as southerners rightly resent the view of many here that you sold us out.

6th sam

Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 29, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 03:27:39 PM
Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.
For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.) ;D

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.

Itchy

Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 06:24:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 29, 2021, 04:02:35 PM
I remember back when I was a gasúinín 1982 or so.
My mother asked me to deliver a parcel to a neighbour that she'd brought from town.
I went in, News came on the radio and after about 90 seconds he turned it off.
"Nothin on the News but the fkn North, mornin noon and night. Tow the fkn place out onto the Atlantic and sink it ta fk" he thundered.
I'd say he was representative of a significant minority.

I suspect that exasperation continued till 1998 and the GFA which would be viewed as them shower seeing some sense, even if it took up so much of the time of 2 Governments and a US President to make them see it.

Note - the above are not my views, just a snapshot of how many see ye ;)

Thanks Ross, a refreshing bit of honesty. The expressed view above is what  Irish up here  resent, in much the same way as southerners rightly resent the view of many here that you sold us out.

I tbink Rossfan anecdote of the village idiot in some village in Roscommon doesn't really tell me anything

Lar Naparka

#5787
Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 06:39:02 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 29, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 03:27:39 PM
Lar naparka, I totally empathise with the viewpoint of those in ROI who are concerned about taking the North on board, but your post completely represents the attitude that grinds with the Irish in the North, absolutely no attempt to empathise with Irish up North who have suffered. It is very easy to say you respect "moderate nationalist" as if it's a badge of honour , the fact that you perhaps don't understand is that most who suffered are not "moderate nationalists". The SDLP have contributed well on occasions , but they are mainly derived from that section of the Irish population up here who have suffered less. To give yourself some feedback, your post comes across to me as sneering , disdainful, and patronising to those in a different part of the Island who consider themselves as Irish as you but rarely have that recognised.
Pre 1916 those that considered themselves Irish in Fermanagh for example endured the famine in the same way as those from monaghan did, but they didn't rid themselves of British rule. In addition their best lands were taken off them in the plantation, and handed to British . Those that  were city dwellers had little chance of employment and many were burned out of their homes. They had to
Live in a sectarian state where their Irishness was devalued . This was mostly ignored by the ROI as they were too busy trying to develop their fledging state( and failing pretty badly under many parameters). As Rossfan has alluded to , I'm neither cantankerous nor a rabble rouser , I'm just hoping for recognition from ROI that their support for The Irish in the Northern state has been limited. Rightly we are expected to reflect on our contribution to the conflict , but so must you.
You should also reflect that I have family members , who are moderate northern nationalists who live in the South and they often comment on a palpable antagonism towards them as northerners and a lack of empathy or insight or interest. Calling that out doesn't make me cantankerous, and I've no animosity to southerners, quite the contrary.
For starters I regret very much that you take anything I've said as 'sneering , disdainful, and patronising.' and I certainly never implied that you or the vast majority of Nationalist are a cantankerous rabble.
Yet, you seem to be one of those who harbour a deep sense of resentment that the south didn't come to your aid and you were left to fight on your own.
Yet damn all of you ever wondered why the Nationalists, north and south, fought as one against the Tanks and the might of the British army and the south then turned around and ditched you..
Do you really think it was a case of, "I'm alright Jack?"

I'm really curious here: What do you know about the Irish Civil War?
Very little I would guess and the same applies to the vast majority of northern nationalists. Families were split down the middle and brothers fought fathers with more hatred that was ever felt for the Tans.
The bitterness still lingers on to this day.
How could anyone expect those in the south to 'do something' when the factions wouldn't do business with shopkeepers, doctors, dentists and the likes that belonged to the other side?
For generations, they wouldn't attend the other side's funerals. More people were killed in this conflict that lasted less than a year than were killed in the almost 40 years of your Troubles.
To cap it all, De Valera refused to continue paying British Treasury loans as they fell due  and the British retaliated by blocking agricultural produce from the south.
This 'Economic War' lasted during most of the 30s and well and truly banjaxed the southern economy and then WW11 came along and nearly finished us off altogether.
The boat to Holyhead was the only way out of trouble and in my own county, Mayo, the population had fallen by over one third in the period between the Treaty and the 1960s.
Do you seriously believe that the people of Mayoi or anywhere else had the luxury to come to your aid?

BTW, nobody yet on this board or anywhere else has ever tried to spell out what they feel the south could have done to 'come to your aid.' Dozens of half-starved Paddies on bicycles without tyres and shaking hay forks or turf spades would be about the height of it. Yet, it seems to me that few if any northern Nationalists ever give thought as to why their southern kinsmen did not 'do something.'
You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you?
(I'd be more willing to consider what you may say if you leave stuff like Southern bastards, partionists and the likes out of it.) ;D

When you fear that I'll resort to name calling, you're wrong.
When You guess I know very little about the Civil war and leaving Mayo for Holyhead, you're wrong.
When you suspect I have a deep sense of resentment towards the South you're also wrong, and obviously you don't read my posts which display a genuine respect for the development of ROI.
When you imply that I expected ROI to invade to help us out, you're again wrong, all I want is a recognition that there may be a problem with the antagonistic view you and other southerners express towards your fellow countrymen.
There's a problem with etymology here- the precise meaning of words. I imagine you don't wander off course and neither do I so I'll just say that people in the North take a more literal meaning out of a sentence than those in the South are inclined to do.
That's by way of saying I would never dream of expecting you to resort to name calling or of linking in with the 'cantankerous rabble' in any way.
I did ask you a direct question, "You seem to be an articulate guy to me. Would you spell out what you think the South could have done to help you? "
This was in the context of what I had been saying about the name callers and sabre rattlers that get all Nationalists a bad name down south. After all, you seem genuinely upset that southerners have a very low regard for the northern nationalists and I thought I had gone to great lengths to explain why.
So the last sentence in brackets had an emoji attached as a feeble attempt at humour- I was looking for your genuine, no nonsense reason for feeling the South didn't like all Nationaliast north of the border.
God, I thought I had gone into detail on that subject and I did say that I'd find nothing wrong with 95% or thereabouts of the Nationalist upp North. Ross gave you one good reason why people down south are fed up hearing about endless trouble in the north. Others on the board have chipped in and yet in your last sentence to me you still feel that we have an antagonist view of our fellow country men.
I don't expect the  'cantankerous rabble' to pay attention to anything I say but I expected more understanding from you. If myself, Ross and other posters haven't given you reasons aplenty, there's no point in going further.
You tell me that I am wrong in a number of cases but you failed to answer the questions I put to you every time so I could hardly be anything but wrong!
I did not ask you if you had heard of the Civil War. (Same goes for mass emigration.
In both cases I wanted to know what you knew about them.)
What I wanted to know was what you knew of the troubles the republic had gone through and did you think  the Republic should have been able, somehow, to do something for their northern brethren?
In brief, Ross have given one reason why the republic are short on sympathy for our northern fellow-country men and I have given you plenty of others. If that's not enough, there's the little matter of picking up the tab if unification ever comes to pass.  Who will pay the bills when the British depart?
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Itchy

Lar - maybe properly investigste the dublin and monaghan bombing and tell everyone who did it.

Silver hill

Quote from: 6th sam on March 29, 2021, 11:10:14 AM
Quote from: Angelo on March 29, 2021, 10:31:19 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 28, 2021, 09:07:12 PM
The "I hate Free Staters" mob are basically Ian O'Doherty, Eoghan Harris and Ruth Dudley Edwards repackaged in green

The lot of them should be banished to a windswept island off the Atlantic coast where they can bitch at each other like Ted Crilly and Dick Byrne

Ah you're projecting now and actually parroting my accurate summations of your illogical and emotional Eoghan Harris type diatribes. Just like Eoghan Harris you can't leave emotion one side. This bit of Brolly's article hits the nail on the head from me when it comes to Free State revisionism on The Troubles:

When the Peace Agreement was signed, the DUP rejected it, then destroyed David Trimble (painting him as a traitor to Ulster) and progressive unionism. As soon as that was done, Paisley U-turned and became First Minister. In spite of the DUP, we are enjoying the most spectacularly successful peace process in modern history. They have had an opportunity in the 25 years since to create a stable Northern Ireland, but they couldn't. This is because they are not so much a political party as an emotion.

As historian Brendan O'Leary explains in his masterwork on the North, the North is not a state, or even a province. It is instead an unworkable fantasy based on unionist supremacy. A ragbag of a place whose raison d'etre has always been to rub the Catholics' noses in it. We have lived through systematic discrimination, electoral fraud, deprivation of the vote, violent repression of civil rights, shoot to kill, massacres of innocent civilians without consequence (Bloody Sunday, Glenanne, Ballymurphy) and so on. If children in the Republic were taught that in 1971, thousands of Catholic men were rounded up and detained in a detention camp outside Belfast without charge or trial for up to three years, they would think you were joking. Doesn't that only happen in Russia?

In 1976, after a music night at the Bellaghy club, my parents and a few friends, including my Aunt Maura, who was on the lookout for a man at the time, were stopped by a UDR patrol. My father was taken over the hill out of sight and three shots rang out. Then Packie Kealey (a fiddler). Then Lawrence Mulholland. When car lights appeared on the horizon, the soldiers got back in their Land Rover and drove off. My Aunt Maura said: "Your mother was heavily pregnant with Aine. We ran over the hill in hysterics. We thought they were dead. They were all alive. Just badly beaten." Subsequently, the men were awarded £5,000 in damages at Magherafelt District Court. No one was ever charged. This was normal life for us.

The Republic turned a blind eye. As writer and historian Paul Larkin put it recently, the only explanation for the hysterical Southern response to anyone talking honestly about the North "is self shame - a phenomenon well attested in post-colonial societies". It is a sense of guilt that comes from them having sat on their hands as the horrors unfolded. Much easier to blame Sinn Féin and the IRA than to call out the root causes.


Hard to disagree with any of that. The Free State had all the time in the world to do something positive for the north but the same sense of entitlement that saw it for them to sell out the 6 counties in the 1920s existed then and still exists today. Acknowledgement and contrition for that really needs to be forthcoming.

Much as I don't agree with Angelo's approach on a number of issues , and antagonism towards "the freestate" is counterproductive, ROI politicians and media in the main have little insight or empathy for the North. Ironically many appear to have more affinity and respect for DUP types than the Irish in the North. FF have had a few exceptions , Albert , and even Charlie and Bertie🤦🏻‍♂️ , whilst Coveney and Peter Barry were the only FG politicians who appeared to have any concern for the Irish in the North.

Angelo , will no doubt be shot down with vigour, as usual , but I would genuinely agree that many in ROI need to reflect on neglect of their fellow countrymen, standing idly by for the first 50 years of horrendous discrimination in NI, and in the last 50 years failing to confront the continuing supremacy of many DUP politicians and their followers . Their vigorous condemnation of IRA atrocities ( and rightly so ) if not matched by calling out unionist supremacy , and trying better to understand the Irish in the North, (as opposed to treating us with disdain), comes across as party political.

Well said 6th Sam, great post, nail on head.