Time for a post-catholic Ireland

[sid waddell]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.

Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".

I gather you live in the US.

Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.

Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.

Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.

Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.

[Eamonnca1]

Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:

1. Light and the cosmos

The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.

While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.

The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).

Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature

Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.

3. Philosophy and theology

Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.

4. Education and the university system

Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.

Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.

5. Art and architecture

Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.

6. Law and jurisprudence

The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.

7. Language

The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.

8. Music

Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).

Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.

9. The status of women

Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).

Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.

The Galileo episode is probably one of the most misunderstood, and the catholic church was a bit maligned for it IMHO. They didn't object to his findings, they believed him. What they objected to was him going public with them without going through them first, they figured that the public needed time to adjust to the idea and the church was in a better position to handle it.

And yes, the church did set up a lot of scientific research later on. To this day the Catholic church deserves credit as being a Christian denomination that doesn't fight against the science of evolutionary biology, they accept evolution.

[Eamonnca1]

Congratulations by the way, dont tell me your posting this on honeymoon Eammon?

Ha! Thanks. Honeymoon's done and dusted. Had a relaxing weekend up in Squaw Valley. It's a winter ski resort but it's beautiful up there in the summer too.

[The Iceman]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.

Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".

I gather you live in the US.

Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.

Racism - check.   Because you put a check against something doesn't mean you're right. Such a sweeping statement, please educate us somewhere on the foundation of this Sid?
Prejudice against immigrants - check.  You live in Ireland right? No prejudice there against immigrants? Or is it only them catholics who don't like them? I'm an immigrant in America. I did it the right way and I had no bother. America has been good to me. I speak from personal experience.
Climate change denial - check.   I believe in climate change. I don't know how you blame religion on that one - again please explain?
Poor education - check. Christianity started education - please explain how religion is to blame for poor education?
Opposition to abortion - check.  There are many atheists and agnostics who oppose abortion, including on this board
Opposition to transgender rights - check. Please prove to me scientifically that Transgenderism is real and that man can be a woman just because he thinks so
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.  Again please provide support for this claim?
Opposition to proper social security - check. See above
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check. See above
The gun lobby - check. You're losing all credibility here....
Neo-conservatism - check. by definition? how?
The pro-Israel lobby - check. "christians" are completely divided on this around the world

Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.  please.....

Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.

Really? Please educate us all on how these issues are based on religion? Do these issues exist outside of a religious country? Are they only in Ireland and the U.S? Religion is the common denominator? Or are people?
Again I don't need to change your mind. I just can't let you post tripe and not call it out.

[Puckoon]

Congratulations by the way, dont tell me your posting this on honeymoon Eammon?

Ha! Thanks. Honeymoon's done and dusted. Had a relaxing weekend up in Squaw Valley. It's a winter ski resort but it's beautiful up there in the summer too.

Can't believe you bought a Groupon for your honeymoon.

You can take the man out of Armagh...

Congrats!

[gallsman]

Christianity started education...

What?

[omaghjoe]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.

Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".

I gather you live in the US.

Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.

Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.

Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.

Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.

The Catholic church opposed racism, the global diversity of the church should be an example of this

Immigration is complicated but in the USA the Catholic church supported Obamas immigration reform

The Pope keeps harping on that we aren't doing enough about climate change.

Catholic church is broadly associated with excellence in education.

Opposed to the taking of life for convenience sake obliviously

Not sure that the Catholic church has a defined position on transgenderism perhaps you know the position?

Going by the amount of hospitals ran by Catholic orders

The rest of these I find hilarious:

Catholic church supports the Gun lobby, Neo conservatism, Pro-Isreal EH?

I'm pretty sure the Catholic church was one of the earliest opponents of slavery and is probably the biggest driver in removing its acceptance both in the West and in regions were it became the dominant religion.

[omaghjoe]

Christianity started education...

What?

Pinpointing that would be difficult but we know that Islam invented Universities and Catholicism borrowed the idea and extended them to Western civilization

[omaghjoe]

Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:

1. Light and the cosmos

The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.

While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.

The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).

Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature

Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.

3. Philosophy and theology

Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.

4. Education and the university system

Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.

Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.

5. Art and architecture

Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.

6. Law and jurisprudence

The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.

7. Language

The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.

8. Music

Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).

Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.

9. The status of women

Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).

Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.

The Galileo episode is probably one of the most misunderstood, and the catholic church was a bit maligned for it IMHO. They didn't object to his findings, they believed him. What they objected to was him going public with them without going through them first, they figured that the public needed time to adjust to the idea and the church was in a better position to handle it.

And yes, the church did set up a lot of scientific research later on. To this day the Catholic church deserves credit as being a Christian denomination that doesn't fight against the science of evolutionary biology, they accept evolution.

Didn't he specifically say the Pope was wrong or something, and it was more like a personal vendetta.

His house arrest was shameful, tho it did have an upside for kinematics I think

[Puckoon]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

[The Iceman]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

[Esmarelda]

Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.

I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.

Joe, are you being disingenuous?

If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.

No... are you Esm?

A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality

Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?

No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way

And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.

Let's assume you're right for the minute and that "good behaviour" can be linked back to religious teachings. What relevance does that have to people's view on Catholocism as a whole in today's society. Surely one can reject something while accepting that it has its good points?

[gallsman]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

How is this anything to do with freedom of religion being impinged? Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort. Pure Trumpian whataboutery.

[The Iceman]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

How is this anything to do with freedom of religion being impinged? Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort. Pure Trumpian whataboutery.

Why don't you answer some of the questions instead of posing your own?
It's a genuine concern. What role does religion have in your ideal Ireland?

[gallsman]

In the running of the state apparatus? Absolutely none whatsoever.

In the private lives on individual citizens? Whatever they want it too.

This really isn't difficult. Why are you banging on about freedom of religion? Nobody is suggesting you should be denied the right to practice your religion in the slightest.