Time for a post-catholic Ireland

[omaghjoe]

Sorry I meant neechay
 

[Eamonnca1]

Did I see someone gathering sticks on Sunday? Stone that man to death outside the gates of the city!

Earlier I saw someone calling his father a fool. He shall be put to death. And he who striketh his father shall surely be put to death! Leviticus says so, and that's the basis of western law!

Old Testament .
Christianity/Catholicism based on New Testament.
Would have expected a smart buck like you to know that.

Oh I've heard people cherry-pick from Old and New Testaments to suit whatever ideology they're pushing. I'm quite familiar with the "ah but the OT doesn't apply to me, guv" excuse.

[Eamonnca1]

I always get a good laugh at people claiming that the law of the land is based on biblical legends. Take the Ten Commandments, which some eejits in America think are significant enough that they deserve to be put on display in big sheets of granite in the courthouse where they probably think they're being enforced:

• "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me" - Not enshrined in civil or criminal law
• "You shall not make for yourself an idol" - Perfectly legal to make an idol
• "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God" - Perfectly legal to swear the bit out
• "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" - Not many laws in place enforcing this in a lot of western countries now
• "Honor your Father and Mother" - Not enshrined in law
• "You shall not kill/murder*" - Enshrined in law, flouted in a dwindling number of death penalty countries most of which are outside western "Christendom"
• "You shall not commit adultery" - Not enshrined in law in western countries
• "You shall not steal" - Enshrined in law
• "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" - Enshrined in law if you're under oath, but slander and libel are civil matters where the penalties are financial
• "You shall not covet your neighbor's house" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws
• "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws

[omaghjoe]

I always get a good laugh at people claiming that the law of the land is based on biblical legends. Take the Ten Commandments, which some eejits in America think are significant enough that they deserve to be put on display in big sheets of granite in the courthouse where they probably think they're being enforced:

• "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me" - Not enshrined in civil or criminal law
• "You shall not make for yourself an idol" - Perfectly legal to make an idol
• "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God" - Perfectly legal to swear the bit out
• "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" - Not many laws in place enforcing this in a lot of western countries now
• "Honor your Father and Mother" - Not enshrined in law
• "You shall not kill/murder*" - Enshrined in law, flouted in a dwindling number of death penalty countries most of which are outside western "Christendom"
• "You shall not commit adultery" - Not enshrined in law in western countries
• "You shall not steal" - Enshrined in law
• "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" - Enshrined in law if you're under oath, but slander and libel are civil matters where the penalties are financial
• "You shall not covet your neighbor's house" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws
• "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws

Not sure if  any anthropologist would deny the influence that religion has in the formation of civilization and continues to have even in countries that the majority profess irreligious. I guess its hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes

I think we all know it is considered generally socially unacceptable to:
Swear: we all do it of course but that's actually probably part of the reason why we do it
Have false idols: Money being the most obvious.
Honour our parents
Commit adultery: and it actually does impact your position during divorce proceeding in effect the terms of a legal contract have been breached
Covet your neighbour's wife
Covet your neighbour's possessions: although this is probably more for your own self esteem and inner balance
Sunday is also still the main day which we are most likely  not to be working and most likely to spend doing something we believe life is for, for most of us that means family.

Congratulations by the way, dont tell me your posting this on honeymoon Eammon?

[seafoid]

Before the  Famine people were pretty relaxed about sex. Marriage happened young and there were lots of kids. Female sexuality was not an issue. There may even have been gays, lesbians, bacon and tomato.

After the Famine catholics were traumatised. Children died in front of their parents. The population was slashed.  Female sexuality  was policed by civil society including the holy Catholic and most apostolic church. No marriage without land. Extreme patriarchy. No sexual expression.
No homosexuality. No abortion. No single  mothers. No tampons
The Catholic church followed the people on that. It worked for a long time. Pilgrimages and holy water and first holy communion and Jesus and Mary assist me now and in my last agony and candles and Thuribles plus incense.

It could have had a different role for the last 170 years but it didn't.  It can be anything. It just has to find a different model.

 When Columbanus was running the show in the 7th century the model was excellence. Nobody fucked with Columbanus. 

[Rois]

When Columbanus was running the show in the 7th century the model was excellence. Nobody fucked with Columbanus.

So maybe the Columban order should take over the Catholic parishes in Ireland? They have Columbanus at the heart of their ethos. Bobbio - I will get there some day 

[seafoid]

When Columbanus was running the show in the 7th century the model was excellence. Nobody fucked with Columbanus.

So maybe the Columban order should take over the Catholic parishes in Ireland? They have Columbanus at the heart of their ethos. Bobbio - I will get there some day 

I would love to go there too.
Bobbio lasted over a thousand years.
Maynooth less than 200.

[manfromdelmonte]

We don't actually know how many religions behaved in the past
How they treated their followers or how their head honchos used their status

[magpie seanie]

It's the judgemental nature of the Catholic church and it's most pious members that is such a massive contradiction. Live your own lives. Try to live and good life and if possible help others who may not be as fortunate as yourself. Leave the judging to the man above as per the Catholic church teaching.

It isn't rocket science. No need for a tenth of the bullshit.

[guy crouchback]

Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?

Guy, I agree with most of what you're saying but isn't considering yourself catholic but not agreeing with many aspects of it a complete contradiction?

I agree with many of the teachings of the church yet I don't believe. That does make me a catholic?

[/b][/i]

oh a complete contradiction, that's what i could never understand, i'd discuss it with people and they would outline what they believe and what they dont believe and id say to them ''what you are describing as your perfect situation is almost exactly the teachings of the Anglican church, why dont you just join them''  and they would break  their shite laughing at me and say 'ah no,no,no, 'i'm a catholic i could never do that'.
then I'd call them all the hypocrites under the sun and they would shrug their shoulders and say some along the lines of ''sure wasn't Jesus a hypocrite didn't he turn water into wine and anyway you have to turn the other cheek''

as for control of the schools, this is the institutional church's last stand, they will cling onto this with all their diminishing might.
they have the upper hand here too as they own the buildings and the land so they will be hard to shift.

[Farrandeelin]

Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?

Guy, I agree with most of what you're saying but isn't considering yourself catholic but not agreeing with many aspects of it a complete contradiction?

I agree with many of the teachings of the church yet I don't believe. That does make me a catholic?

[/b][/i]

oh a complete contradiction, that's what i could never understand, i'd discuss it with people and they would outline what they believe and what they dont believe and id say to them ''what you are describing as your perfect situation is almost exactly the teachings of the Anglican church, why dont you just join them''  and they would break  their shite laughing at me and say 'ah no,no,no, 'i'm a catholic i could never do that'.
then I'd call them all the hypocrites under the sun and they would shrug their shoulders and say some along the lines of ''sure wasn't Jesus a hypocrite didn't he turn water into wine and anyway you have to turn the other cheek''

as for control of the schools, this is the institutional church's last stand, they will cling onto this with all their diminishing might.
they have the upper hand here too as they own the buildings and the land so they will be hard to shift.

And that's the problem too imo. Past generations of Irish people were shall I say 'persecuted' by this denomination. It's often said the Irish remained Catholic despite Rome, not because of it.

I think said explanation gives one of the reasons why.

[Esmarelda]

Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.

I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.

Joe, are you being disingenuous?

If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.

No... are you Esm?

A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality

Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?

[easytiger95]

I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.

I got married last week in a civil ceremony in a perfectly nice location. Our officiant was a mate of mine who got "ordained" in something like the "Universal Life Church" that meets the bare minimum legal standard to let people become ministers to perform civil ceremonies. You fill out a form, pay a small fee, send it off, and they send you a certificate saying you're a minister. So at our ceremony we had it set up exactly as we wanted and there was no mention of Jesus or God or any of that crew. He signed the paperwork and we filed it with the county. Job done. No need for a big elaborate mass or a church or any of that nonsense.

What's the story in Ireland for people that want civil ceremonies? Is there a limited number of places where you can go to host them?

Congratulations Eamonn, well done.

I've been to a few civil ceremonies, and I don't think there is any restriction, as long as the owner of the venue is ok with it.

[armaghniac]

I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.

I got married last week in a civil ceremony in a perfectly nice location. Our officiant was a mate of mine who got "ordained" in something like the "Universal Life Church" that meets the bare minimum legal standard to let people become ministers to perform civil ceremonies. You fill out a form, pay a small fee, send it off, and they send you a certificate saying you're a minister. So at our ceremony we had it set up exactly as we wanted and there was no mention of Jesus or God or any of that crew. He signed the paperwork and we filed it with the county. Job done. No need for a big elaborate mass or a church or any of that nonsense.

What's the story in Ireland for people that want civil ceremonies? Is there a limited number of places where you can go to host them?

Congratulations Eamonn, well done.

I've been to a few civil ceremonies, and I don't think there is any restriction, as long as the owner of the venue is ok with it.

It has to be open to the public so that someone can do the whole Dustin Hoffman thing and run off with the bride.

[The Iceman]

Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:

1. Light and the cosmos

The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.

While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.

The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).

Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature

Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.

3. Philosophy and theology

Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.

4. Education and the university system

Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.

Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.

5. Art and architecture

Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.

6. Law and jurisprudence

The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.

7. Language

The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.

8. Music

Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).

Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.

9. The status of women

Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).

Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.