woman dies for want of a abortion

[Franko]

On abortion, I find it difficult to see how some people can have such strong viewpoints one way or the other. It's an EXTREMELY complex issue and anyone who is 100% in one direction and dismissive of the other simply isn't engaging in an honest discussion imo

As they type these days "+1".

I can't countenance ever accepting these women who claim "bodily autonomy" means that abortion is some kind of human right.  Neither though can countenance people who could watch a woman suffer (and die in some cases) because in principle for them life begins at conception.   I think that there is a halfway house that allows compassion (and even morality!) with due medical supervision etc.

Those that are motivated to campaign seem to be the extremes so I am tending to ignore debates and would certainly not open the door to any of them.  On a personal level, as the father of a boy with Down Syndrome, I have observed too much cuntiness from both groups when they discuss people like my son.

/Jim.

Well put.  Just about covers it for me.

Would add what someone said earlier though - I'd hate to see it become an 'on demand'* service.

*I appreciate the negative connotations of that phrase.

It already is.

For me this is a decision between living within reality or living in a make-believe land where these abortions won't happen at all if we don't legalise is. Governments need to meet the needs of their citizens and abortion is one of those societal needs. We can argue the term limits for it until we're both dead but an 'on demand' service is the only one that actually acknowledges real life.

Nope. It's not in Ireland, and no amount of your bullshittery can make it so today. Just because your heroes across the pond offer it doesn't mean it's right for Ireland. As someone pointed out earlier, a great many people sacrificed their lives to make it that way. Though, the more I read from you, the more I get the sense that you wish they hadn't bothered.

[trueblue1234]

So you are no on abortion full stop?

It's like Jehovah's refusing a blood transfusion to save their life or wife's life or even worse, letting their child possible die. It's a stubborn view and wrong..

Abortion is not religious, it's not black and white.. what needs to be discussed is when it happens, what is the timeline and the criteria for it

Nothing has changed.. you personally have a view.. you are not or will ever be (unless you transgender and develop the ability to give birth!!!) able to put yourself into the shoes of a woman that's been raped and pregnant, you also won't be in the position were you can't mentally look after a child, or face up to the fact of bringing up a child alone..

Abortion is not the only way out of this scenario. No woman should be forced to bring up a child they do not want, both for the good of the child and the mother. But there are other options such as adoption.

And my sister has been the luckiest parent in the world because of adoption... but thats one area.. I've simple view on it.. you can't say that no abortion for any reason is reasonable

I never did say that. In fact in this thread I explained where I felt abortion should be considered. I don't believe that because the woman feels she couldnt raise the child is a reason to terminate the pregnancy. Support can be offered after birth and adoption is always an option. I don't agree with Sys view that abortion on demand is the only option.

[Syferus]

So you are no on abortion full stop?

It's like Jehovah's refusing a blood transfusion to save their life or wife's life or even worse, letting their child possible die. It's a stubborn view and wrong..

Abortion is not religious, it's not black and white.. what needs to be discussed is when it happens, what is the timeline and the criteria for it

Nothing has changed.. you personally have a view.. you are not or will ever be (unless you transgender and develop the ability to give birth!!!) able to put yourself into the shoes of a woman that's been raped and pregnant, you also won't be in the position were you can't mentally look after a child, or face up to the fact of bringing up a child alone..

Abortion is not the only way out of this scenario. No woman should be forced to bring up a child they do not want, both for the good of the child and the mother. But there are other options such as adoption.

And my sister has been the luckiest parent in the world because of adoption... but thats one area.. I've simple view on it.. you can't say that no abortion for any reason is reasonable

I never did say that. In fact in this thread I explained where I felt abortion should be considered. I don't believe that because the woman feels she couldnt raise the child is a reason to terminate the pregnancy. Support can be offered after birth and adoption is always an option. I don't agree with Sys view that abortion on demand is the only option.

Any system that has anything else will just lead to women to fudge the system to get abortions like in every other country. Trying to put a lot of red tape around something like abortion sounds good in principle but in practice we know what will happen.

Face reality, this is a choice between no abortions and abortions being entirely up to the woman. No one who wants an abortion is going to decide not to because they have to say they have depression to get it. Legislate for the world that exsists.

[Rois]

I have three points to add at this stage:

I don't think a doctor should be guilty of a criminal offence if they try to save their patient's life if the patient or their next of kin wants them to be saved.

As a 30-something I have a lot more confidence that I could have handled an unplanned pregnancy as a youngster, but I prob wouldn't have had that confidence then. Depending on the question asked, my vote (if I had one) may have changed between the age of, say, 22 and 32.

I have no idea how you would legislate for abortion in the case of rape without effectively providing termination on demand. How is someone supposed to decide whether a conception happened as a result of rape within the timeframes being mentioned, and who is that someone who decides? Doctor? Judge? Garda? If you just accept the word of the alleged victim, then it could effectively become like the UK. And by saying that it sounds like I don't have any human feelings but I do. There are, of course, genuine cases, but people may in desperation say what is necessary if they thought no one else would get in trouble.

[trueblue1234]

I don't agree with you. And Nor do I believe that if the choice is Abortion on demand that it would be passed.

[Syferus]

I don't agree with you. And Nor do I believe that if the choice is Abortion on demand that it would be passed.

You're about to be proven wrong so.

[trueblue1234]

I don't agree with you. And Nor do I believe that if the choice is Abortion on demand that it would be passed.

You're about to be proven wrong so.

I remember you being equally adamant about something a Tyrone minor was aledged to have done only to be shown up. I'll take my chances.

[Syferus]

I don't agree with you. And Nor do I believe that if the choice is Abortion on demand that it would be passed.

You're about to be proven wrong so.

I remember you being equally adamant about something a Tyrone minor was aledged to have done only to be shown up. I'll take my chances.

Bonner definitely made that up, said no one ever. Look ladeen, stick to the topic.

[trueblue1234]

I don't agree with you. And Nor do I believe that if the choice is Abortion on demand that it would be passed.

You're about to be proven wrong so.

I remember you being equally adamant about something a Tyrone minor was aledged to have done only to be shown up. I'll take my chances.

Bonner definitely made that up, said no one ever. Look ladeen, stick to the topic.

The topic is your jumping to conclusions and being wrong. My point is valid.

[macdanger2]

I don't agree with you. And Nor do I believe that if the choice is Abortion on demand that it would be passed.

You're about to be proven wrong so.

Your attitude on this reminds me of some democrats before the election of Trump. Beware of believing too much in the echo chamber of your own social media circles. I think this referendum will be won by 55% or less either way

[Syferus]

I don't agree with you. And Nor do I believe that if the choice is Abortion on demand that it would be passed.

You're about to be proven wrong so.

Your attitude on this reminds me of some democrats before the election of Trump. Beware of believing too much in the echo chamber of your own social media circles. I think this referendum will be won by 55% or less either way

55% is a ten point differential, that's a landslide in a two horse race. The current margin is over double that. As I said before the margins are so heavily in favour of repeal complacency and the younger demographic of repeal voters (hence not bothering to vote) is the only concern. The repeal side should forget about the pro-life tit-for-tat and focus its efforts on a get out the vote campaign.

And Hillary never had a 28% lead three months before the election, Mac..

[omaghjoe]

IS there any law that has never been broken?
or better still...
Is there any law that is not regularly broken?

The purpose of a law is to draw a line in the sand not to build an insurmountable barrier.

That line can usually be easily crossed by anyone if they want to, and is regularly crossed for almost all laws.

All laws have scenario where you could argue that they are ok to be broken: from jay walking to murder.
No law is 100% wrong every time it occurs.

[omaghjoe]

Id possibly vote to repeal the 8th myself if that's all it was... And that's where the polls are at.

But sure didn't Leo say they'd be going for the 12 weeks on demand afterwards? That's a whole different ball game.

The 12weeks thing will happen if the referendum is passed you can be rest assured of that. Backed up with the mantra "sure it happens anyway, we need to facilitate for it somehow"

But that reasoning falls on it face pretty quickly as demonstrated above.

[RedHand88]

I never understood the "sure it happens anyway" school of thought. Doesn't justify it.

[gallsman]

I never understood the "sure it happens anyway" school of thought. Doesn't justify it.

Pretty easy to understand. It happens anyway, you can't stop it happening therefore better to legislate for and regulate it.