Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[seafoid]

I wonder after the IFS branding BOTH Labour and Tory manifesto spending plans as "not credible" does Seafoid still see the IFS part of the neo liberal conspiracy ?

Show me where the IFS supports demand.

The IMF is neoliberal. The ECB is neoliberal. The Fed is neoliberal. The Bank of England is neoliberal. KPMG is neoliberal. EY is neoliberal.  Of course the IFS is neoliberal. It's 2019. 
Neoliberalism isn't a conspiracy. It's the economic system. Big difference.

[gallsman]

Of course, even if you were in any way close to being correct about any of this, your history of antisemitism on the board would (or should) disqualify any reasonable person from even considering being aligned with your views.

(See reference to your previous interest in ScarJo's menstrual rituals)

[Franko]

I wouldn't be as quick as seafoid to suggest that it's the Israeli lobby behind it all but there certainly are wealthy individuals, corporations, media groups and nation states who would stand to lose a lot if Corbyn got into power.

These groups wield influence over a Tory government by throwing money at the right people and that's why they are so terrified of Corbyn getting into power... because despite all his faults (there are many IMO) I don't think he can be bought.

As for providing evidence.  Come off it.  What do you want me to do, post you a link to an email from the Barclay twins to BoJo?  Catch a grip.  The evidence is in front of your eyes but you either don't want to, or are too naive to see it.

A couple of other things;
1.
You need to take yourself a little less seriously - "if you're going to claim that there's a systematic smear campaign, you'd better be able to provide evidence of who's behind it.".  Had I better?  To whom?  You? 

2.
The only shrieking I can see is being done by you.  The rest of us can generally present some sort of opinion here without getting worked up into a swearing frenzy and throwing out insults.

[RadioGAAGAA]

Of course, even if you were in any way close to being correct about any of this, your history of antisemitism on the board would (or should) disqualify any reasonable person from even considering being aligned with your views.

Sorry... what?

So 'cos Seafoid says that the Palestinians are getting an unfair time of it, no one else is allowed to say the same without branding themselves unreasonable?

[Franko]

Rather than frantically googling global research.ca articles, why don't you just refer to the IHRA definition and its accompanying examples directly? They're all very easily accessed and, as you've obviously studied them closely, would understand that they take about 30 seconds to read.

All you are able to do is, continuously, repost (incorrect) opinion pieces. You are a liar.

You are a drama queen.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf
Adopt the following non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism:

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

That definition wouldn't stand up in court. The vagueness is the point.


Accusing Israel of apartheid could qualify as "hatred towards Jews" or towards "Jewish community institutions"
Calling for a Palestinian State and the removal of settlers could be classed as " a certain perception of Jews".

Not forgetting :

"Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.  Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation"

This is the basis upon which they declare Corbyn anti-Semitic.

For f**k's sake.
Israel always has to suppress international law. Always.

Been over this before (on here I think).

The bit in bold is the killer.  The state of Israel is the largest Jewish community institution in the world.

And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

[gallsman]

And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

Jesus Christ, no it doesn't. It states that Jewish community institutions (Israel in your example) can be victims/targets of antisemitism.

It says nothing about criticising Israel being anti-Semitic.

[seafoid]

That you gov poll is making some serious leaps. The Birmingham mail today is reporting 7 labour held seats will be lost in the area to the Tories. Some of these seats have decent Labour majorities but were leave voting seats. They are making the assumption that leave voters will jump Labour to Tory. I can't see it when it comes to putting the X down and if you believe as i do that a good number of leavers will have changed their minds then i don't see the massive swing to the tories the yougov poll is predicting. We will see. However if you google democratic dashboard and a constinuency name it will give you the run down in each area. Make up your own mind. I could be way out but i think the Tory lead narrative is being pushed by them primarily.

The FT had a chart of the 42 seats that YouGov implies the Tories will win. Wrexham, Bolsover, Hyndburn...
The point of such polling is to encourage other people to concede.
The chart will be worth comparing with the election results.

[seafoid]

There I go absolutely f**king nothing Absolutely zero of what you've postedhas anything to do with labelling anyone who supports Palestinian rights as anti-Semitic. I don't know if you're deliberately obtuse or just so filled with bigotry that you actually can't see the difference

The examples you've pulled from it are fascinating though, particularly the one about not applying standards to Israel that would not be expected or demanded of any other nation. You have some sort of problem with this, or deem it in some way unreasonable?

Calling what Israel does apartheid/demanding the removal of Jewish settlers/Calling for sanctions against Israel- all of these would be classed as "anti Semitic" by Zionists under the IHRA definition.
The definition is too ludicrous to be sustainable.

[seafoid]

Of course, even if you were in any way close to being correct about any of this, your history of antisemitism on the board would (or should) disqualify any reasonable person from even considering being aligned with your views.

Sorry... what?

So 'cos Seafoid says that the Palestinians are getting an unfair time of it, no one else is allowed to say the same without branding themselves unreasonable?

No. Those are the rules.

[seafoid]

I wouldn't be as quick as seafoid to suggest that it's the Israeli lobby behind it all but there certainly are wealthy individuals, corporations, media groups and nation states who would stand to lose a lot if Corbyn got into power.

These groups wield influence over a Tory government by throwing money at the right people and that's why they are so terrified of Corbyn getting into power... because despite all his faults (there are many IMO) I don't think he can be bought.

As for providing evidence.  Come off it.  What do you want me to do, post you a link to an email from the Barclay twins to BoJo?  Catch a grip.  The evidence is in front of your eyes but you either don't want to, or are too naive to see it.

A couple of other things;
1.
You need to take yourself a little less seriously - "if you're going to claim that there's a systematic smear campaign, you'd better be able to provide evidence of who's behind it.".  Had I better?  To whom?  You? 

2.
The only shrieking I can see is being done by you.  The rest of us can generally present some sort of opinion here without getting worked up into a swearing frenzy and throwing out insults.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/fr/news/israeli-diplomat-sought-set-labour-group-undermine-crazy-corbyn-1016879568

[smelmoth]

Time for Johnson to expose himself to proper scrutiny.

He runs from scrutiny and his manifesto certainly was environmentally friendly in terms of how little paper it used.

I would like to see him pressed on these issues.

When will we not have a requirement for food banks?
When will the housing crisis be resolved (the number of houses available for rental, the condition of the properties inside and out and the affordability of the property in rental/purchase terms for ordinary workers?)
When will universal credit be operation to a level that there will be no sudden drop income that necessitates recourse to food banks or missed rent/mortgage payments?
When will wage levels hit living wage levels in each regional economy in UK?
When will NHS get the funding required to meet each of the respective waiting time targets?
When will the social care funding model be resolved?
What steps will be take to address failing public transport providers?
Will the state subsidise state infrastructure providers (water, power, postal, broadband) and allow investor dividends at the same time?
Will NHS bargaining power be reduced when negotiating with US pharma?
Will animal welfare standards be reduced?
Will food quality standards be reduced?
Will there be any change to corporation tax or the top rate of income tax prior to the above issues being resolved?
When will the report on Russian influence on UK elections be published in an unredacted form?

It seems incredible that he has been able to run from these issues for so long and to run a government, manifesto and campaign that don't even pretend to address the real problems

[seafoid]

I think that he is a poor leader and that he is having a bad campaign.

[Owenmoresider]

I think that he is a poor leader and that he is having a bad campaign.

Yes you have mentioned that once or twice alright.

[sid waddell]

Of course Israel and pro-Israel interests are behind the smears on Corbyn and his supporters.

It's the oldest trick in the book. Look at what they've done to Ilhan Omar in the US while ignoring the litany of virulent anti-Semitism from Trump and the Republicans.

Funny how the media doesn't mention actual instances of anti-Semitism from opponents of Corbyn within Labour.

Like, the guy who's the actual spokesman for an organisation called Labour Against Anti-Semitism, Euan Philipps, who isn't Jewish, called Corbyn supporting journalist Eleanor Penny, who is Jewish, "a blackshirt".

Labour MP Siobhan McDonagh said that "to be anti-capitalist automatically makes you anti-Semitic". That's a classic anti-Semitic trope.

Neither of these two instances of actual anti-Semtism are ever cited by the media. Why? Because Philipps and McDonagh both hate Corbyn.

It would disturb the narrative.

Have a look at the Tories even. There's a litany of anti-Semitism there. Boris Johnson continually commissioned a virulent anti-Semite, Taki Theodoracopulos, to write anti-Semitic propaganda for The Spectator when he was editor - Theodoracopoulos still writes for The Spectator!

Jacob Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, Andrew Bridgen, James Cleverley, all use or have used anti-Semitic tropes. A Tory candidate in this election had to stand down for being caught out as a Holocaust denier!

Yet none of this is cited by the press as evidence of the Tories having an anti-Semtism problem, which they actually have.

The only prominent Tory to be accused of being an anti-Semite in my memory is Alan Duncan, who categorically is not an anti-Semite. Why was he accused? Because, rarely for a Tory, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the Israel/Palestine situation and spoke out forcefully against Israel's disgraceful bombing of Gaza in 2014 which killed thousands, and over 500 children.

An Israeli diplomat was literally caught on hidden camera by Al Jazeera saying that he had to be "taken down".

If you're in any sort of prominent position in politics or the media and publicly oppose Israeli policy, it is very likely you will be smeared as an anti-Semite.

[under the bar]

Of course Israel and pro-Israel interests are behind the smears on Corbyn and his supporters.

It's the oldest trick in the book. Look at what they've done to Ilhan Omar in the US while ignoring the litany of virulent anti-Semitism from Trump and the Republicans.

Funny how the media doesn't mention actual instances of anti-Semitism from opponents of Corbyn within Labour.

Like, the guy who's the actual spokesman for an organisation called Labour Against Anti-Semitism, Euan Philipps, who isn't Jewish, called Corbyn supporting journalist Eleanor Penny, who is Jewish, "a blackshirt".

Labour MP Siobhan McDonagh said that "to be anti-capitalist automatically makes you anti-Semitic". That's a classic anti-Semitic trope.

Neither of these two instances of actual anti-Semtism are ever cited by the media. Why? Because Philipps and McDonagh both hate Corbyn.

It would disturb the narrative.

Have a look at the Tories even. There's a litany of anti-Semitism there. Boris Johnson continually commissioned a virulent anti-Semite, Taki Theodoracopulos, to write anti-Semitic propaganda for The Spectator when he was editor - Theodoracopoulos still writes for The Spectator!

Jacob Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, Andrew Bridgen, James Cleverley, all use or have used anti-Semitic tropes. A Tory candidate in this election had to stand down for being caught out as a Holocaust denier!

Yet none of this is cited by the press as evidence of the Tories having an anti-Semtism problem, which they actually have.

The only prominent Tory to be accused of being an anti-Semite in my memory is Alan Duncan, who categorically is not an anti-Semite. Why was he accused? Because, rarely for a Tory, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the Israel/Palestine situation and spoke out forcefully against Israel's disgraceful bombing of Gaza in 2014 which killed thousands, and over 500 children.

An Israeli diplomat was literally caught on hidden camera by Al Jazeera saying that he had to be "taken down".

If you're in any sort of prominent position in politics or the media and publicly oppose Israeli policy, it is very likely you will be smeared as an anti-Semite.

+1
Didn't the Israeli government attempt to get the UN definition of anti-semitism changed to any criticism of the Israel or its actions such as the murder of innocent Palestinians?