Catholics make up 78% of free state population.👍👍👍

[omaghjoe]

You may die to regret this

Why would one regret an honestly held opinion?

If the god of the bible is real, are we not supposed to use our intellectual gifts/talents to the best of our ability?

Is the person who comes to the honestly held opinion that its all a pile of bollocks in worse shape than the person who doesn't give any of it much thought at all, but merely coasts along on what they were indoctrinated with as a young child?

But if your dead and you are able to regret (or not) something... then....theres an afterlife


On your other point if you used your intellectual ability you would indeed realise that many version of what is real are possible, unless of course you've been indoctrinated into thinking that one of them is for sure real...?

Let's not complicate or obfuscate a straightforward question Joe. Tony is saying that someone may come to regret a lack of faith if they were to die and find they were mistaken. I'm merely asking how someone could be subject to such harsh consequences for an honestly held opinion and asking why someone who did have faith merely because they'd never challenged it beyond what they were taught as a child should fair better?

What harsh consequences?

Seriously?

Damnation and hellfire.

Millennia in some penitential purgatory.

Whatever the consequence of unbelief in whatever god one is talking about, in this case, Tony's christian god.

Anyway ..So your telling me that with so many telling you there is the supernatural, the undeniable possibility that there is one, your former belief that there was one. You wouldn't regret in choosing to believe there is defo none, even when you also had a third (and admittedly) probably more logical choice to say maybe there is?

I don't choose to believe or disbelieve anything. It is a judgment call.

Which is my point.

Now your adding things on that may be the case but it depends on your faith, who knows. Who said anything about consequences? I was talking about it from a more personal viewpoint but thinking about it maybe I was assuming we still have an ego in the here after, apologies if there was confusion.

Anyway you've professed atheism here before so I was alluding to your honestly held belief / disbelief in that....? So are you saying that you've shifted your position on it?

Er... no... in my opinion, which I did not choose, gods don't exist. Which makes me an atheist.

You didn't choose your opinion? so...... you dont believe in freewill either?

As I say I would like to see your rationale on that "opinion" because the only logical one is that God's may exist or they may not. Taking one or other of those two sides further involves a belief.

[omaghjoe]

Whats wrong with that? A simple plea for mercy for all sinners

How can everyone be a sinner? It''s nuts

Do you remember nothing Seafoid?

Our bodies are just vessels riddled by temptations like selfishness, egos, and envy, therefore we are inherently all sinners. In fact that first line is probably sinning against you as its somewhat belittling you, but I'll leave it in as an example of how easy it is to sin.

Maybe you should ask yourself or a priest about what these lines are trying to say rather than declare it nuts just straight off.
It comes across like you have a very closed mind. Like you have a paradigm that you are not going to deviate from maybe?

If God made us like that Joe how is it our fault? Why do.other religions not have the concept of sin?

Other religions dont have the concept of sin? What are you talking about of course they do

I dunno why he gave us bodies like this Seafoid you'll have to ask him yourself. Perhaps it was the only way that he could get a vessel for us to experience this world and gave us freewill, through generations of evolution.

[J70]

You may die to regret this

Why would one regret an honestly held opinion?

If the god of the bible is real, are we not supposed to use our intellectual gifts/talents to the best of our ability?

Is the person who comes to the honestly held opinion that its all a pile of bollocks in worse shape than the person who doesn't give any of it much thought at all, but merely coasts along on what they were indoctrinated with as a young child?

But if your dead and you are able to regret (or not) something... then....theres an afterlife


On your other point if you used your intellectual ability you would indeed realise that many version of what is real are possible, unless of course you've been indoctrinated into thinking that one of them is for sure real...?

Let's not complicate or obfuscate a straightforward question Joe. Tony is saying that someone may come to regret a lack of faith if they were to die and find they were mistaken. I'm merely asking how someone could be subject to such harsh consequences for an honestly held opinion and asking why someone who did have faith merely because they'd never challenged it beyond what they were taught as a child should fair better?

What harsh consequences?

Seriously?

Damnation and hellfire.

Millennia in some penitential purgatory.

Whatever the consequence of unbelief in whatever god one is talking about, in this case, Tony's christian god.

Anyway ..So your telling me that with so many telling you there is the supernatural, the undeniable possibility that there is one, your former belief that there was one. You wouldn't regret in choosing to believe there is defo none, even when you also had a third (and admittedly) probably more logical choice to say maybe there is?

I don't choose to believe or disbelieve anything. It is a judgment call.

Which is my point.

Now your adding things on that may be the case but it depends on your faith, who knows. Who said anything about consequences? I was talking about it from a more personal viewpoint but thinking about it maybe I was assuming we still have an ego in the here after, apologies if there was confusion.

Anyway you've professed atheism here before so I was alluding to your honestly held belief / disbelief in that....? So are you saying that you've shifted your position on it?

Er... no... in my opinion, which I did not choose, gods don't exist. Which makes me an atheist.

You didn't choose your opinion? so...... you dont believe in freewill either?

As I say I would like to see your rationale on that "opinion" because the only logical one is that God's may exist or they may not. Taking one or other of those two sides further involves a belief.

I'm not seeing the apparent conflict between coming to a conclusion and free will.

And I never said belief is not involved. I said I don't see how one "chooses" a belief.

Are you suggesting I can sit down now over lunch and choose to believe in deities? Or that Tony can just decide to be an atheist?

[seafoid]

The point is,according to scripture belief in God is an essential requirement for salvation,not the capacity to rationalise or use intellect.Quite simply and logically then,dying without belief in God (if he in fact exists and scripture is true) has disastrous consequences for such individuals.

Well then god is an irrational, egomaniac.

Trump-type figure.

How can one choose to believe?

The Christian God is vindictive. The Hindu God Ganesh is much more decent

[omaghjoe]

You may die to regret this

Why would one regret an honestly held opinion?

If the god of the bible is real, are we not supposed to use our intellectual gifts/talents to the best of our ability?

Is the person who comes to the honestly held opinion that its all a pile of bollocks in worse shape than the person who doesn't give any of it much thought at all, but merely coasts along on what they were indoctrinated with as a young child?

But if your dead and you are able to regret (or not) something... then....theres an afterlife


On your other point if you used your intellectual ability you would indeed realise that many version of what is real are possible, unless of course you've been indoctrinated into thinking that one of them is for sure real...?

Let's not complicate or obfuscate a straightforward question Joe. Tony is saying that someone may come to regret a lack of faith if they were to die and find they were mistaken. I'm merely asking how someone could be subject to such harsh consequences for an honestly held opinion and asking why someone who did have faith merely because they'd never challenged it beyond what they were taught as a child should fair better?

What harsh consequences?

Seriously?

Damnation and hellfire.

Millennia in some penitential purgatory.

Whatever the consequence of unbelief in whatever god one is talking about, in this case, Tony's christian god.

Anyway ..So your telling me that with so many telling you there is the supernatural, the undeniable possibility that there is one, your former belief that there was one. You wouldn't regret in choosing to believe there is defo none, even when you also had a third (and admittedly) probably more logical choice to say maybe there is?

I don't choose to believe or disbelieve anything. It is a judgment call.

Which is my point.

Now your adding things on that may be the case but it depends on your faith, who knows. Who said anything about consequences? I was talking about it from a more personal viewpoint but thinking about it maybe I was assuming we still have an ego in the here after, apologies if there was confusion.

Anyway you've professed atheism here before so I was alluding to your honestly held belief / disbelief in that....? So are you saying that you've shifted your position on it?

Er... no... in my opinion, which I did not choose, gods don't exist. Which makes me an atheist.

You didn't choose your opinion? so...... you dont believe in freewill either?

As I say I would like to see your rationale on that "opinion" because the only logical one is that God's may exist or they may not. Taking one or other of those two sides further involves a belief.

I'm not seeing the apparent conflict between coming to a conclusion and free will.

And I never said belief is not involved. I said I don't see how one "chooses" a belief.

Are you suggesting I can sit down now over lunch and choose to believe in deities? Or that Tony can just decide to be an atheist?

You said it wasn't a choice, so if you dont have a choice then you dont have free will...no?

You also said above that you dont believe or disbelieve anything, which as I pointed couldn't be true as it would be impossible to hold an opinion on anything.

Course its a choice to believe (or not) in the non physical, Tony's even said as much before. I even had that Eureka moment your talking about, in one moment I gave into my own intuition, I could choose not to tomorrow who knows
So yes you can, and if you say you can't then it appears you dont believe you have freewill.

It seems to me that there is a lot of inconsistencies in what your saying J70 perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

[T Fearon]

How can the God who sacrificed his son on a cross,out of love for mankind,be described as vindictive?

[Hardy]

How can the God who sacrificed his son on a cross,out of love for mankind,be described as vindictive?

Maybe the answer is in the question.

[T Fearon]

It's not.Given that God is made up of the Holy Trinity he in effect took on the suffering of the crucifixion on himself,out of love for mankind,thus offering salvation to all

[mrdeeds]

So God gave up his son (who is himself) as the ultimate sacrafice even though he was going to rise up into heaven anyway. Yeah sure.

[seafoid]

Whatever about salvation I acknowledge the job God  has done,but he has met minimum expectations domestically,for which lavish praise is not due in my opinion. The Iona Institute will always spin the numbers. This has unbelievably exceeded the praise lavished on the Holy Spirit who exceeded all expectations last year.

I suspect God himself will be judged ultimately on how he performs in Europe.Especially on church attendances.

[Eamonnca1]

It's not.Given that God is made up of the Holy Trinity he in effect took on the suffering of the crucifixion on himself,out of love for mankind,thus offering salvation to all

He sent himself, to sacrifice himself, to appease himself.

Makes perfect sense.

[michaelg]

It's not.Given that God is made up of the Holy Trinity he in effect took on the suffering of the crucifixion on himself,out of love for mankind,thus offering salvation to all

He sent himself, to sacrifice himself, to appease himself.

Makes perfect sense.

Who manned the cloud when he was down on earth?

[J70]

You may die to regret this

Why would one regret an honestly held opinion?

If the god of the bible is real, are we not supposed to use our intellectual gifts/talents to the best of our ability?

Is the person who comes to the honestly held opinion that its all a pile of bollocks in worse shape than the person who doesn't give any of it much thought at all, but merely coasts along on what they were indoctrinated with as a young child?

But if your dead and you are able to regret (or not) something... then....theres an afterlife


On your other point if you used your intellectual ability you would indeed realise that many version of what is real are possible, unless of course you've been indoctrinated into thinking that one of them is for sure real...?

Let's not complicate or obfuscate a straightforward question Joe. Tony is saying that someone may come to regret a lack of faith if they were to die and find they were mistaken. I'm merely asking how someone could be subject to such harsh consequences for an honestly held opinion and asking why someone who did have faith merely because they'd never challenged it beyond what they were taught as a child should fair better?

What harsh consequences?

Seriously?

Damnation and hellfire.

Millennia in some penitential purgatory.

Whatever the consequence of unbelief in whatever god one is talking about, in this case, Tony's christian god.

Anyway ..So your telling me that with so many telling you there is the supernatural, the undeniable possibility that there is one, your former belief that there was one. You wouldn't regret in choosing to believe there is defo none, even when you also had a third (and admittedly) probably more logical choice to say maybe there is?

I don't choose to believe or disbelieve anything. It is a judgment call.

Which is my point.

Now your adding things on that may be the case but it depends on your faith, who knows. Who said anything about consequences? I was talking about it from a more personal viewpoint but thinking about it maybe I was assuming we still have an ego in the here after, apologies if there was confusion.

Anyway you've professed atheism here before so I was alluding to your honestly held belief / disbelief in that....? So are you saying that you've shifted your position on it?

Er... no... in my opinion, which I did not choose, gods don't exist. Which makes me an atheist.

You didn't choose your opinion? so...... you dont believe in freewill either?

As I say I would like to see your rationale on that "opinion" because the only logical one is that God's may exist or they may not. Taking one or other of those two sides further involves a belief.

I'm not seeing the apparent conflict between coming to a conclusion and free will.

And I never said belief is not involved. I said I don't see how one "chooses" a belief.

Are you suggesting I can sit down now over lunch and choose to believe in deities? Or that Tony can just decide to be an atheist?

You said it wasn't a choice, so if you dont have a choice then you dont have free will...no?

You also said above that you dont believe or disbelieve anything, which as I pointed couldn't be true as it would be impossible to hold an opinion on anything.

Course its a choice to believe (or not) in the non physical, Tony's even said as much before. I even had that Eureka moment your talking about, in one moment I gave into my own intuition, I could choose not to tomorrow who knows
So yes you can, and if you say you can't then it appears you dont believe you have freewill.

It seems to me that there is a lot of inconsistencies in what your saying J70 perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

Joe, you are misquoting me, presumably unintentionally.

I did not say I don't believe or disbelieve anything. I said I don't CHOOSE to believe or disbelieve anything.

And sorry, but it's NOT a choice. One forms an opinion or makes a judgement by weighing the evidence and using reason and logic. How I am supposed to just choose to believe in the existence of gods or some specific god is beyond me. Your "giving in to your intuition", whatever that entailed or means, doesn't change that.

I don't see any inconsistency Joe. Same, simple, straightforward point over and over. Which I stand by.

[Esmarelda]

omaghjoe and J70, if I may enter the debate, I think what J70 is saying is that he has assessed all the evidence, as he sees it, and has decided that it is very unlikely that there is a deity and so he considers himself an atheist.

I'm in the same boat.

omaghjoe feels that there is a deity. This feeling exists due to some inexplicable reason(s). I'm unsure of how that translates over to a specific deity, i.e. Yahweh, Jesus Christ etc.

I've stopped using the word "believe" in these discussions as I find it hard to define, as I think your discussion to this point has highlighted.

[seafoid]

People are more educated and have access to more information than peasants in the 7th century did. It is not surprising that faith is under pressure.
Catholicism has very little to offer modern women.