Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[BennyCake]

Giving weaker teams only one chance in the championship has been unsuccessfully tried before.

In 2007, Division 4 teams were eliminated from the championship if they lost in the provinces.

I recall that the Dublin v Offaly in that year's Leinster semi-final was one such match, where Offaly knew they would be out if they lost, and lose they did.

Nobody cared about the Tommy Cooper Cup that year, and nor did they care any other year.

The rule was scrapped after one year.

The Tommy Cooper Cup ended very quickly. Just like that!

Is that the door?

[lenny]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.

[APM]

If Leitrim hurlers played Kilkenny I dread to think what the score would be. Likewise any of the Christy Ring or Nicky Rackard teams.  The gap between the top tier and the others in hurling is vast. 

Derry (bottom tier in National League and 25th place) ran Tyrone (3rd Place in Division 1) to 6 points in the first round of the Championship. Down, 19th place in the National League ran Mayo (2nd and League Winners) to 4 points in the qualifiers.  Longford (21st) were less competitive v Tyrone (3rd) in the qualifiers, but the margin of victory for Tyrone was only four points. 

Roscommon finished in 25th place in the hurling league.  Can you imagine Roscommon (25th in the hurling league) holding Clare, Wexford or Tipp to four points, even if they did ease up in the last 10 minutes?

[Esmarelda]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.

The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.

[lenny]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.

The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.

We've had that for over a hundred years. There are quite a few teams out there who have never won anything in that time. The problem is they develop in the league but then get tanked in the championship because it's way above their level.

[priceyreilly]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.

The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.

We've had that for over a hundred years. There are quite a few teams out there who have never won anything in that time. The problem is they develop in the league but then get tanked in the championship because it's way above their level.

21 different counties have won provincial titles since 1992. The Tommy Murphy Cup was rejected a decade ago. Time to move on.

[johnnycool]

If Leitrim hurlers played Kilkenny I dread to think what the score would be. Likewise any of the Christy Ring or Nicky Rackard teams.  The gap between the top tier and the others in hurling is vast. 

Derry (bottom tier in National League and 25th place) ran Tyrone (3rd Place in Division 1) to 6 points in the first round of the Championship. Down, 19th place in the National League ran Mayo (2nd and League Winners) to 4 points in the qualifiers.  Longford (21st) were less competitive v Tyrone (3rd) in the qualifiers, but the margin of victory for Tyrone was only four points. 

Roscommon finished in 25th place in the hurling league.  Can you imagine Roscommon (25th in the hurling league) holding Clare, Wexford or Tipp to four points, even if they did ease up in the last 10 minutes?

I get your point in terms of disparity but 4 points isn't a big deal in hurling whereas it takes an awful lot more to get 4 points in football. They are not the same thing between the two sports.

And I'm not going to mention lesser teams setting up ultra defensively to keep the margin down but ultimately the result is never in doubt.  It wouldn't matter if Roscommon hurlers lined all 14 outfield players inside their own half, teams like kilkenny would still cut through them like a knife through butter.

Hurling doesn't hid that disparity as well as football can but the disparity is still there.

[blewuporstuffed]

Rather than an out an out two tier system , I would be more in favour of a ' FA Cup' style championship draw where the teams in the lower divisions enter the competition earlier.

So we would have:
preliminary round

New York v team drawn from Div 4,
if you are drawn in preliminary round one year, you are not in the draw for it the following year  to try and make it fairer

Qualifier Round 1
Div 4 teams (pot 1)v Div 3 teams (pot 2)

Qualifier Round 2
Qualifier round 1 winners (pot 1)v Div 2 teams (pot 2)

Qualifier Round 3
Qualifier round 2 winners (pot 1) v Div 1 teams (pot 2)

Super 8s
2 groups of 4 teams ,just like we have now, but selected from an open draw of the 8 qualified teams.

I would play the provincial championships as a stand alone cup competition, not directly linked to the All Ireland series. Make them worth winning in their own right. Finals played as two 'super Sundays' before the AI series begins. Eg Live on TV Ulster final 2pm, Leinster final 4 pm, with the same for Munster & Connacht  the following Sunday

Scrap the preseason mckenna cups etc and start the league earlier
Ditch the league finals. If you finish top of your division you are 'Div league champions'  etc

What this set up would give us is:

A link between league performance and championship, making the league more competitive and meaningful.
A chance for every county to be involved in the latter stages of the championship, while still insuring the smaller counties get competitive games and a realistic chance to progress
More exposure for the lesser teams. (LIVE TV coverage of games from Q R1, QR2 etc)
A fairer way for teams to reach the later stages of the championship
A return to do or die, knock out football for the Ireland series and the potential for upsets and shocks.
Every county would be guaranteed:
7 national league games, at least 1 provincial championship game, at least 1 All Ireland series game.

The key is though, of that All Ireland series game, for every county, it is one they can realistically aspire to winning and aim for.
Progress in the national league would see you moving up the qualifier draw making it it easier to reach the later stages of the All Ireland series and
the Super 8 stage.

[The Boy Wonder]

blewuporstuffed's proposed system above is the best I have seen.
This would be an excellent solution.

[seafoid]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.

The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.

We've had that for over a hundred years. There are quite a few teams out there who have never won anything in that time. The problem is they develop in the league but then get tanked in the championship because it's way above their level.

21 different counties have won provincial titles since 1992. The Tommy Murphy Cup was rejected a decade ago. Time to move on.

Attendances are the GAA's key metric and they have been falling for several years.
It doesn't matter than the TM cup was rejected. That was then. This is now

[Esmarelda]

I like parts of blewuporstuffed's proposal but I think relegating the provincials to a stand alone competition isn't a runner. Teams want to win their provincial championship because it's worth winning. If it's not linked to the All-Ireland series then the stronger teams won't care about it and so the smaller teams winning it becomes less significant.

[blewuporstuffed]

I like parts of blewuporstuffed's proposal but I think relegating the provincials to a stand alone competition isn't a runner. Teams want to win their provincial championship because it's worth winning. If it's not linked to the All-Ireland series then the stronger teams won't care about it and so the smaller teams winning it becomes less significant.

I know that is going to be the big stumbling block for a lot of people, but i really think if we want meaningful reform of the championship structure we have no choice.
It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.
The provincials have lost a  we e bit of their appeal for the bigger counties as it is anyway.
It certainly may not sit well with the traditionalists, but I think its a better overall solution than a tiered championship or the current format

[five points]

It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.

It will always be easier for some on the basis that they are bigger and more populous than other counties.

[blewuporstuffed]

It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.

It will always be easier for some on the basis that they are bigger and more populous than other counties.

Thats a completely different thing though.
What i mean is, how easy the route is for cork/kerry to reach the super 8s as opposed to say an ulster county.

[Keyser soze]

It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.

It will always be easier for some on the basis that they are bigger and more populous than other counties.

Thats a completely different thing though.
What i mean is, how easy the route is for cork/kerry to reach the super 8s as opposed to say an ulster county.

The same as for Waterford Clare or Tipp I would say.