Paul Kimmage article about Athenry club dispute.

[AZOffaly]

We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

[Itchy]

We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

My club do something similar, the problem doesn't come from the parents with us. It comes from dinosaurs on the committee who think that winning at U12 is something to crow about. Thankfully we are weeding these guys out of coaching positions one by one (as their own kids get older) and we are working hard to get the right people involved at U6 and upwards from there. We actually have former county players involved at U6/U8/U10 who are now parents which is great and even better they are bought into the idea that its not all about winning. Unfortunately some of our neighbouring clubs we play in blitz's at U8 and U10 are hell bent on beating us (since no scores are kept i'm not sure on the point) but I am confident ours is a longer term plan which will work out well.

[Jinxy]

Yeah, most people will say the main thing is that the kids enjoy themselves but human beings are competitive animals, and that includes the kids themselves (once they go beyond a certain age anyway).
That's why you need a structure there to enforce (for want of a better word) fairness and give all the kids the chance to participate.
I remember I was the fastest runner in 5th class in my primary school and this other lad transferred in from another school that was faster than me!
Despite his best efforts, we could never be friends. 
Haven't seen him in years, but if I met him out and about now, I'd probably challenge him to a race.

[AZOffaly]

Yeah, most people will say the main thing is that the kids enjoy themselves but human beings are competitive animals, and that includes the kids themselves (once they go beyond a certain age anyway).
That's why you need a structure there to enforce (for want of a better word) fairness and give all the kids the chance to participate.
I remember I was the fastest runner in 5th class in my primary school and this other lad transferred in from another school that was faster than me!
Despite his best efforts, we could never be friends. 
Haven't seen him in years, but if I met him out and about now, I'd probably challenge him to a race.

Nothing wrong with being competitive. The kids have to learn that too. And they are naturally that way anyway, so you need to not coach that out of them. However, you can make sure that as coaches you show that competitiveness is fine, but you don't abuse people, refs, opposition or players. You don't whinge when you lose, and you don't gloat when you win. You are there to set an example of how to be competitive, and win in the right manner, and take your loss and learn from it too.

Try to win every game, but don't make decisions in the boardroom that maximise your chances of winning an U12, but minimises your chances of winning or even fielding a team when they are older.

[heffo]

Athenry didn't cover themselves in glory with how they handled the complaint by any means but Kimmage shouldn't have named the two people involved.

Having been a Juv Chair, Club Chair and lots of other county and national positions, I can honestly say that about 80% of issues I encountered in all that time were from pushy parents who felt their son/daughter were too good to play on a B team or their teammates on their own team weren't good enough for their son/daughter.

[manfromdelmonte]

Athenry didn't cover themselves in glory with how they handled the complaint by any means but Kimmage shouldn't have named the two people involved.

Having been a Juv Chair, Club Chair and lots of other county and national positions, I can honestly say that about 80% of issues I encountered in all that time were from pushy parents who felt their son/daughter were too good to play on a B team or their teammates on their own team weren't good enough for their son/daughter.

exactly
the parents just need to let the kids get on with playing and enjoying the games

[Jinxy]

Another thing that bugs me about the article.
Kimmage opens with the following quote:

No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where would we be?"

- George Orwell,

''Animal Farm'

Can someone explain the relevance of this to me?
Who is Comrade Napoleon in this case, the GAA?

[manfromdelmonte]

Another thing that bugs me about the article.
Kimmage opens with the following quote:

No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where would we be?"

- George Orwell,

''Animal Farm'

Can someone explain the relevance of this to me?
Who is Comrade Napoleon in this case, the GAA?

The ignorant coaches or club officers?

[trailer]

Another thing that bugs me about the article.
Kimmage opens with the following quote:

No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where would we be?"

- George Orwell,

''Animal Farm'

Can someone explain the relevance of this to me?
Who is Comrade Napoleon in this case, the GAA?

The ignorant coaches or club officers?

I think he means the club chairperson in this instance. Although does that make him George Orwell? I wouldn't be surprised. He's a drug cheat and they tend to be jumped up.

[Jinxy]

As far as I can see, Croke Park has responded appropriately in this instance.
They would have been the obvious choice for Napoleon otherwise.
I dunno...

[thewobbler]

We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

My club do something similar, the problem doesn't come from the parents with us. It comes from dinosaurs on the committee who think that winning at U12 is something to crow about. Thankfully we are weeding these guys out of coaching positions one by one (as their own kids get older) and we are working hard to get the right people involved at U6 and upwards from there. We actually have former county players involved at U6/U8/U10 who are now parents which is great and even better they are bought into the idea that its not all about winning. Unfortunately some of our neighbouring clubs we play in blitz's at U8 and U10 are hell bent on beating us (since no scores are kept i'm not sure on the point) but I am confident ours is a longer term plan which will work out well.

This is quite the insulting point of view Itchy.

My experience is that it's not committee "dinosaurs" who are hell bent on winning trophies at under-12 level, but it's the 10 and 11 year old boys.

And the pressure point that every club endures is when the needs of more-promising and more-competitive young players, locks horns with the needs of less-promising and less-competitive young players. That's when parents on both sides start to bare their teeth, or throw their toys out of the pram.

A committee can't actually win in this situation, as there will always be a tranche if young players disaffected by the direction taken. But I would say this. Young players with competitive instincts are innately much more likely to play and enjoy the game when it actually does get competitive - at u14, u16, minor, adult - so there is a clear longer-term benefit in making sure they get their full enjoyment out of u12 Gaelic Football.

I hope your club's policy of "winning isn't everything, in fact it's really not important at all", ends up paying dividends for you, I genuinely do. But personally I'd be wary, as efforts to please everyone rarely result in pleasing anyone.

[Jinxy]

You'll always get some parents trying to live vicariously through their kids, who think any perceived 'failure' reflects on them.
A bit of common sense is all that's required in most cases to resolve issues, but I think people are increasingly likely to go to war at the drop of a hat instead of just approaching someone for a face-to-face chat.
We are probably all guilty of losing the head as players, mentors and spectators at some stage.
You need to let the blood cool down before you try and address the cause of the conflict.
In small, rural communities there can be plenty of other variables that feed into the mix, "I never liked that fella" etc., which exacerbate the problem.
My father fell out with our senior manager years ago after he took my brother off in a big game.
Now, it was a truly bizarre decision at the time, but they'd barely talk to each other to this day.
Pride & loyalty to family are at the root of most of these internecine feuds.

[Itchy]

We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

My club do something similar, the problem doesn't come from the parents with us. It comes from dinosaurs on the committee who think that winning at U12 is something to crow about. Thankfully we are weeding these guys out of coaching positions one by one (as their own kids get older) and we are working hard to get the right people involved at U6 and upwards from there. We actually have former county players involved at U6/U8/U10 who are now parents which is great and even better they are bought into the idea that its not all about winning. Unfortunately some of our neighbouring clubs we play in blitz's at U8 and U10 are hell bent on beating us (since no scores are kept i'm not sure on the point) but I am confident ours is a longer term plan which will work out well.

This is quite the insulting point of view Itchy.

My experience is that it's not committee "dinosaurs" who are hell bent on winning trophies at under-12 level, but it's the 10 and 11 year old boys.

And the pressure point that every club endures is when the needs of more-promising and more-competitive young players, locks horns with the needs of less-promising and less-competitive young players. That's when parents on both sides start to bare their teeth, or throw their toys out of the pram.

A committee can't actually win in this situation, as there will always be a tranche if young players disaffected by the direction taken. But I would say this. Young players with competitive instincts are innately much more likely to play and enjoy the game when it actually does get competitive - at u14, u16, minor, adult - so there is a clear longer-term benefit in making sure they get their full enjoyment out of u12 Gaelic Football.

I hope your club's policy of "winning isn't everything, in fact it's really not important at all", ends up paying dividends for you, I genuinely do. But personally I'd be wary, as efforts to please everyone rarely result in pleasing anyone.

I dont know the size of your club wobbler but it is a numbers game for us. Example at U12 we have maybe 18 boys. Its 11 a side I think or maybe 13 a side. Either way its 5-7 subs. Each sub must get a substantion amount of playing time in our team to keep them interested and invested in the team. We do this as long term it will be 15 a side and even if we keep everyone playing thats only 3 subs. If we piss off 3/4 kids at underage we wont have a team. I am not even allowing for the natural drop outs who just have no interest - best will in the world there will always be 1/2 like that.

So we give everyone a decent shot on the field

-to make sure we have players coming through so we can field at next age groups.
-its our duty as a community club to look after all our children, weak and strong.
-to give kids a chance to develop. If you think every child has shown their full potential at 12 you know nothing.
- Even if a kids isnt going to be a top player, we want to keep them involved in our club as we need volunteers, coaches etc.

I never said we dont care about winning, it is just not the be all and end all.

The Dinosaur reference was to some committee members in our club, so unless you are in our club I am not sure what you find insulting. These are people who think you should only play your best 13 every game and give the useless ones 30 seconds at the end. You might win an U12 final but what about all the other points above. Stone age thinking and I make no apology for call it that.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

There are GAA guidelines for Child protection:

http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/

If a club, member or GAAboard contributor doesn't agree with them they should work to get them changed.  However, no of these parties can decide that any particular guideline is not important ("A few fcuks never hurt anyone", "my club does X").  Once they get away with that then all guidelines are up for arbitrary dismissal by an individual or club.

These are are hard-learnt issues in Ireland.  That is why this is a hugely serious issue.

/Jim.

[trailer]

There are GAA guidelines for Child protection:

http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/

If a club, member or GAAboard contributor doesn't agree with them they should work to get them changed.  However, no of these parties can decide that any particular guideline is not important ("A few fcuks never hurt anyone", "my club does X").  Once they get away with that then all guidelines are up for arbitrary dismissal by an individual or club.

These are are hard-learnt issues in Ireland.  That is why this is a hugely serious issue.

/Jim.

A good point. I never thought of it like that.