Removal of Gaza flag in Croke Park!

[Hardy]

This is a humanitarian cause, not a political one

OK - replace "political" with "humanitarian" in my post and the same logic applies. You can't have free-for-all demonstrations or a play-it-by-ear policy. I don't think the GAA is being callous about Gaza and I don't buy the shite about not offending Sky. It's simply the only tenable policy.

It may be the same logic, but 'standing idly by' becomes more obvious, and much harder to stomach. I wouldn't like to see the day when the GAA and GAA members rejected all charitable appeals en masse because it may offend someone, or open floodgates.

The GAA is only "standing idly by" on one more issue than you. How does your hierarchy of issues take precedence?

I happen to think that Croke Park is the people's park. 

It's the GAA's Park. The people have to pay to get in to see games in it.

And what is the GAA if not the people Rossfan?   

The GAA is not "the people". It is the members of CLCG only. A lot of " the people" who go to support teams are in fact NOT members of the GAA and in effect have no say in how it's run or what decisions it makes at whatever level. They are of course perfectly entitled to comment or criticise those decisions but they have no say in them if they're not members.

Just for the record I think Israel is a rogue State which has built illegal settlements on illegally grabbed land, is denying basic human existence to the people of Gaza, and has committed war crimes in Gaza this summer not to mention on previous occasions and further back the massacres in Lebanon in 1982 etc.

Well good that has cleared that up then as I am a member of CLCG, so therefore should have my voice heard yes?

It seems to me that you're looking for more than having your voice heard, Aoise. You're arguing that your personal opinion should override the policy of the GAA management which, until there's reason to believe otherwise, would seem to have the support of the majority of members.

If you think otherwise, put that motion on your club AGM agenda. That's how you get your voice heard in the GAA.

Hardy what do you think an individual could do in two days?

Throw a few bob to the Red Cross. Call the Israeli embassy. Write to your TD. Protest anywhere you're allowed to.

My club AGM is not until December.  Do you want me to contact Netanyahu and tell him to hold off till then?

Because flying your flag in Croke Park WILL make him call it off?

There is an urgency to this and to be frank, the GAA management have not consulted the people on this so by democratic convention they really don't have the right to tell individual people not to support this particular issue.  What are they basing it on? Its not party political!

I don't know. I know that the way we're supposed to do things is to change policy by the procedure, not just unilaterally flout any rule, policy or procedure we disagree with.

Look, I sympathise with your enthusiasm to highlight the barbarity in Gaza. I just don't think you need to make the GAA the villain and I don't think it's going to make an iota of difference to one child in Gaza if your protest has to be outside the stadium until you have permission to protest inside it. And I think the GAA management's policy, such as it is, is reasonable if only for the reason that hard cases make bad law and I don't want the GAA to have to explain down the line that they had to allow a pro-Israeli demo because they had already allowed a pro-Palestine one. You may say that it would be outrageous to allow a pro-Israeli demo. Well voila! That's the problem and the reason it's unfair to have the GAA and its delegated management trying to make ad hoc decisions on geopolitical issues instead of sporting ones.

[Sidney]

True Sidney.

So, I wonder do the people who think this flag in support of the people of Gaza shouldn't be allowed, thus also think the GAA and the Gardai should have intervened to get the American flags in the crowd at the 2001 All-Ireland football final removed, bearing in mind that it's unlikely that they were being flown in support of the then upcoming invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, which even then had already been well flagged in the media?

[johnneycool]

The GAA has in the not too distant past allowed itself to be a political football, i.e. the visit of Lizzy and the greek lad to Croke Park was all about politics as they might as well have went off to Tallagh stadium so lets not kid ourselves that the GAA is above politics.

If the GAA was above politics then Christy Cooney should have told Mary McAleese where to go when she wanted to show how nationalist Ireland had moved on and was now in friendly mode with our lovely aristocratic neighbours.

Fly your Palestine flag or even your Israeli flag in Croke Park if you want but in no way should the GAA be trying to dictate the narrative to the paying patrons and more than likely paid up members of the association to appease Sky, or whoever sponsors, but IMO I don't think the Murdocks or Sky will give a flying f**k if the place was awash with Palestine flags and the GAA shouldn't feel the need to apologise for it either.

Who is "the GAA"? It's you and me. As I keep saying, if you disagree with policy, there's a procedure open to you to have it changed. In the meantime, I'm sorry, but the current policy is the one mandated - i.e, it is de facto the policy of the majority of the membership. On what basis should your (by definition, minority) opinion override that of the majority?

As a matter of interest, what will be the wording of your AGM proposal?

"The GAA" I'm referring to is the central council who make pretty big decisions without going back to you and me.
Do I expect them to ask me of my clubs opinion on every matter, no I don't as that is unworkable but they are still accountable for their actions or inactions.
If a member of the association was asked to remove a flag due to the sensitivities of a certain broadcaster or for any other reason I'd be asking what rule of the association I broke and if the steward did come up with a rule in the official guide I'd be looking to amend it accordingly.

Not sure there is a rule banning people from flying flags or banners in the official guide though!

[Aoise]

The GAA has in the not too distant past allowed itself to be a political football, i.e. the visit of Lizzy and the greek lad to Croke Park was all about politics as they might as well have went off to Tallagh stadium so lets not kid ourselves that the GAA is above politics.

If the GAA was above politics then Christy Cooney should have told Mary McAleese where to go when she wanted to show how nationalist Ireland had moved on and was now in friendly mode with our lovely aristocratic neighbours.

Fly your Palestine flag or even your Israeli flag in Croke Park if you want but in no way should the GAA be trying to dictate the narrative to the paying patrons and more than likely paid up members of the association to appease Sky, or whoever sponsors, but IMO I don't think the Murdocks or Sky will give a flying f**k if the place was awash with Palestine flags and the GAA shouldn't feel the need to apologise for it either.

Who is "the GAA"? It's you and me. As I keep saying, if you disagree with policy, there's a procedure open to you to have it changed. In the meantime, I'm sorry, but the current policy is the one mandated - i.e, it is de facto the policy of the majority of the membership. On what basis should your (by definition, minority) opinion override that of the majority?

As a matter of interest, what will be the wording of your AGM proposal?

"The GAA" I'm referring to is the central council who make pretty big decisions without going back to you and me.
Do I expect them to ask me of my clubs opinion on every matter, no I don't as that is unworkable but they are still accountable for their actions or inactions.
If a member of the association was asked to remove a flag due to the sensitivities of a certain broadcaster or for any other reason I'd be asking what rule of the association I broke and if the steward did come up with a rule in the official guide I'd be looking to amend it accordingly.

Not sure there is a rule banning people from flying flags or banners in the official guide though!

Yes Johnny it would be very interesting to see what rule or procedure they are indeed using?  Does anyone know?  Just so I can have it at hand when attending my AGM in December. ;-)

[Aoise]

This is a humanitarian cause, not a political one

OK - replace "political" with "humanitarian" in my post and the same logic applies. You can't have free-for-all demonstrations or a play-it-by-ear policy. I don't think the GAA is being callous about Gaza and I don't buy the shite about not offending Sky. It's simply the only tenable policy.

It may be the same logic, but 'standing idly by' becomes more obvious, and much harder to stomach. I wouldn't like to see the day when the GAA and GAA members rejected all charitable appeals en masse because it may offend someone, or open floodgates.

The GAA is only "standing idly by" on one more issue than you. How does your hierarchy of issues take precedence?

I happen to think that Croke Park is the people's park. 

It's the GAA's Park. The people have to pay to get in to see games in it.

And what is the GAA if not the people Rossfan?   

The GAA is not "the people". It is the members of CLCG only. A lot of " the people" who go to support teams are in fact NOT members of the GAA and in effect have no say in how it's run or what decisions it makes at whatever level. They are of course perfectly entitled to comment or criticise those decisions but they have no say in them if they're not members.

Just for the record I think Israel is a rogue State which has built illegal settlements on illegally grabbed land, is denying basic human existence to the people of Gaza, and has committed war crimes in Gaza this summer not to mention on previous occasions and further back the massacres in Lebanon in 1982 etc.

Well good that has cleared that up then as I am a member of CLCG, so therefore should have my voice heard yes?

It seems to me that you're looking for more than having your voice heard, Aoise. You're arguing that your personal opinion should override the policy of the GAA management which, until there's reason to believe otherwise, would seem to have the support of the majority of members.

If you think otherwise, put that motion on your club AGM agenda. That's how you get your voice heard in the GAA.

Hardy what do you think an individual could do in two days?

Throw a few bob to the Red Cross. Call the Israeli embassy. Write to your TD. Protest anywhere you're allowed to.

My club AGM is not until December.  Do you want me to contact Netanyahu and tell him to hold off till then?

Because flying your flag in Croke Park WILL make him call it off?

There is an urgency to this and to be frank, the GAA management have not consulted the people on this so by democratic convention they really don't have the right to tell individual people not to support this particular issue.  What are they basing it on? Its not party political!

I don't know. I know that the way we're supposed to do things is to change policy by the procedure, not just unilaterally flout any rule, policy or procedure we disagree with.

Look, I sympathise with your enthusiasm to highlight the barbarity in Gaza. I just don't think you need to make the GAA the villain and I don't think it's going to make an iota of difference to one child in Gaza if your protest has to be outside the stadium until you have permission to protest inside it. And I think the GAA management's policy, such as it is, is reasonable if only for the reason that hard cases make bad law and I don't want the GAA to have to explain down the line that they had to allow a pro-Israeli demo because they had already allowed a pro-Palestine one. You may say that it would be outrageous to allow a pro-Israeli demo. Well voila! That's the problem and the reason it's unfair to have the GAA and its delegated management trying to make ad hoc decisions on geopolitical issues instead of sporting ones.

Look Hardy, stop trying to complicate things for God's sake.  Its a humanitarian cause that should offend no-one.  If anyone is offended by a humanitarian cause (can't even believe I'm writing that)  then they need to go and ask themselves some questions.  Stop deflecting by talking about policies and procedures which up until now no-one has paid a blind bit of heed to, thats if they even exist outside of 'party' politics.  You are seeming overly pedantic on this.  Its up to each individual what they do.  No-one is forcing it!

[Syferus]

Has this thread not sufficiently convinced you this is hardly the black and white issue you thought it was to begin with, Aoise? There's little sense of a unified voice against the GAA deciding what flags it wants paraded in its stands or of the value of mingling geopolitics with sport.

[whitey]

I'm not into politics at all but I certainly disagree with what's happening over there and I'd support anything that would stop it but any rallies or support should be kept away from inside of any sports grounds. I want to see plenty of Armagh flags and I still grin at the tongue and cheek flag from the Garvaghy Rd men on tour but that's as far as it should go and all other flags and emblems should be kept for another day for a rally or protest...

+1

No you wouldn't support anything that was happening to stop it as you have an issue with an innocent flag in Croke Park!  So how would you support anything when you have a problem with this? So stop being disingenuous and just tell the truth, people just don't care!  I'll accept that but don't use this sport is apolitical nonsense - it doesn't make sense considering the majority of people in the country are outraged by this.  Just out of curiosity, why is it such a problem if a flag opposing the slaughter of innocence is taken into Croke Park?  Explain why those people who want to are in the wrong?

Aoise...contrary to what most posters on here think.....there are 2 sides to this conflict

The mere suggestion of a dissenting show of solidarity for the Israeli side was met with an "Id have a word in their ear"  comment from a pro Palestinian supporter.

In fairness he did follow up and say he would be non confrontational, BUT I think any fair minded person could see this cpuld spiral out of control very quickly

You are right, there are 2 sides Whitey.  One that is the fourth biggest military power in the world, the other who are getting slaughtered on a daily basis.  How in the name of God could this spiral out of control?  This is a humanitarian issue, why would someone get offended at anyone showing  support for people who are being killed?  I just don't get it!  I thought that at least Irish people could show that regardless of the contextual history in Palestine, that what is happening is wrong - pure and simple!  Do you think what is happening to the people of Gaza is right?

Aoise.....I have already had more than enough to say on the other thread so let's keep this about the flags. Here's my point-(a) what happens if a counter demonstrations takes place?  (It's unlikely but possible) (b) what happens if someone shows up with an Hamas flag or a Hezbollah flag as happened within the last week at other demonstrations Can you imagine the damage that would do to the GAA worldwide?

If you're worried about damaging the GAA worldwide I would say so long as no one shows up with the Stars and Stripes all will be ok. When all is said and done the USA is the biggest killer and warmonger on the planet. Just ask the Vietnamese or Iraqis (among others) and they'll tell you. Hezbollah and Hamas are small fry in the grand scheme of things. You need to take off your Red, White and Blue

No one in the Republican movement seems too worried about the Vietnamese when they're over here fundraising though-LOL.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/jerome-reilly-sinn-fein-war-chest-swells-as-global-ties-pay-big-dividends-26828222.html

The hypocrisy ids nauseating to say the least

[thewobbler]

No point Syferus. Left him at it 5 pages ago. He is clear in own his convictions, so the rest of us MUST BE WRONG.

[dferg]

Has this thread not sufficiently convinced you this is hardly the black and white issue you thought it was to begin with, Aoise? There's little sense of a unified voice against the GAA deciding what flags it wants paraded in its stands or of the value of mingling geopolitics with sport.

Is there any topic anywhere that everyone agrees on?  The GAA (whoever they are) doesn't have to endorse it any more than they have to endorse John Hogan and his John 3:7 banner.

No point Syferus. Left him at it 5 pages ago. He is clear in own his convictions, so the rest of us MUST BE WRONG.

You say the rest of us must be wrong, like it is Aoise vs everyone else on gaaboard.  It is clearly not.  Some people agree with Aoise some don't.

[macdanger2]

No point Syferus. Left him at it 5 pages ago. He is clear in own his convictions, so the rest of us MUST BE WRONG.

Time for a straw poll

[Aoise]

No point Syferus. Left him at it 5 pages ago. He is clear in own his convictions, so the rest of us MUST BE WRONG.

Not so sure everyone agrees with you on the flags issue to be fair.

Also, I am not a fascist.  I have said on numerous occasions that it is up to everyone individually what they do - obviously.  I am not trying to make anyone feel bad about not bringing a flag, I am simply responding to those who are telling me and others that we are wrong for bringing one.  I hope you can be reasonable and see the difference in that!

[Syferus]

No point Syferus. Left him at it 5 pages ago. He is clear in own his convictions, so the rest of us MUST BE WRONG.

Not so sure everyone agrees with you on the flags issue to be fair.

Also, I am not a fascist.  I have said on numerous occasions that it is up to everyone individually what they do - obviously.  I am not trying to make anyone feel bad about not bringing a flag, I am simply responding to those who are telling me and others that we are wrong for bringing one.  I hope you can be reasonable and see the difference in that!

So you're a libertarian. Unfortunately for you Ireland and the GAA isn't.

[Aoise]

No point Syferus. Left him at it 5 pages ago. He is clear in own his convictions, so the rest of us MUST BE WRONG.

Not so sure everyone agrees with you on the flags issue to be fair.

Also, I am not a fascist.  I have said on numerous occasions that it is up to everyone individually what they do - obviously.  I am not trying to make anyone feel bad about not bringing a flag, I am simply responding to those who are telling me and others that we are wrong for bringing one.  I hope you can be reasonable and see the difference in that!

So you're a libertarian. Unfortunately for you Ireland and the GAA isn't.

There are two strands of libertarianism, neither of which I adhere to strictly.  Ideological boxes do not interest me.  But please explain to me in your mind exactly what Ireland and the GAA is?  And what did you mean by that in relation to the Gazan issue in Croke Park?

[ardal]

What exactly will displaying Palestinian flags at a match in Croke Park do to help the poor people in Gaza?
A flying picket following every Government Minister might just have a bit more ( although of no practical use really) effect on the morons who abstained in that UN vote.

It's on TV. Further highlighting the homicide, showing solidarity to a massive audience, encouraging others to take a stand. It's not as if the Republic of Ireland hasn't passively remonstrated about actions outside it's political control before.

[Sidney]

Again I ask those in favour of the removal of the "We Stand With Gaza" flag, whether they would have been in favour of GAA officials and Gardai stepping in to remove American flags at the 2001 All-Ireland football final, 12 days after September 11th?