Armagh vs Laois

[brokencrossbar1]

Just to clarify not questioning Tony's credentials but his attitude on here certainly represents those fans who take nothing to do with their clubs.

As for cross they are an institution of the gaa, I pray every year someone in armagh beats them, cos god knows over the years there have been and still are teams that could and should! But they are the standard bearers not just in Armagh and Ulster but in Ireland. Why would you want to leave that to go and play crab football with Armagh?

And people use this stick to beat us yet year on year we do,  once the club scene is over.  If we have a successful year and go the whole way to the AI Final we then lose 5-6 players year on year to Armagh,  they don't play club games nor train with the club very often.  To doubt the Cross players commitment to Armagh when they are with Armagh is wrong

[illdecide]

Just to clarify not questioning Tony's credentials but his attitude on here certainly represents those fans who take nothing to do with their clubs.

As for cross they are an institution of the gaa, I pray every year someone in armagh beats them, cos god knows over the years there have been and still are teams that could and should! But they are the standard bearers not just in Armagh and Ulster but in Ireland. Why would you want to leave that to go and play crab football with Armagh?

And people use this stick to beat us yet year on year we do,  once the club scene is over.  If we have a successful year and go the whole way to the AI Final we then lose 5-6 players year on year to Armagh,  they don't play club games nor train with the club very often.  To doubt the Cross players commitment to Armagh when they are with Armagh is wrong

In fairness there is really only one person questioning their commitment everyone else knows the craic

[T Fearon]

I don't have the time to actively involve myself in club football much these days,but did so for long enough,when I had more energy and less responsibility.

I still think players with the ability should prioritise their county careers.Compare the attendances at the AI Senior County Finals and Club Finals to see what means more.

[Beffs]

An all Ireland senior club medal is the best thing you can win as a GAA player. County is great but I don't think many players would rather win Sam before an AI Senior Club title. So this county who or take priority talk is utter 5hite talk.

Hope cross can go the whole way again.

Not true. It may be true for you, but you can't speak for 2000 odd inter county players. If it were true, how come so many inter county players are happy to put their club careers on hold for 8 months of the year, in pursuit of Sam?

If a club title was the number 1 goal for all of them, wouldn't hordes of the top players be choosing to remain with their clubs for the summer, instead of going off on inter county duty? The fact that they don't, shows what the priorities are for 99% of them.

[TF15]

They put it aside 1) because you can play both 2) playing for the county will improve you as a player 3) it's a special honour to play county and pit your wits with the cream of other counties.

But if it was stated before they joined a county panel you can no longer play for your club again until your county career is over I'd say my view would be given substantial weight by the responses. Winning with your friends, family and community is incredibly special. Winning SAM may be more glamorous nationwide but not more meaningful in my opinion.

Maybe my view isn't totally universal but anyone I've ever spoke to about this issue felt the same, including many county players.

[TF15]

In worse news for you Armagh men, Ethan Rafferty went off with what I read us a hamstring injury. It soesent rain but it pours, grim times at the minute.

[Applesisapples]

An all Ireland senior club medal is the best thing you can win as a GAA player. County is great but I don't think many players would rather win Sam before an AI Senior Club title. So this county who or take priority talk is utter 5hite talk.

Hope cross can go the whole way again.

Not true. It may be true for you, but you can't speak for 2000 odd inter county players. If it were true, how come so many inter county players are happy to put their club careers on hold for 8 months of the year, in pursuit of Sam?

If a club title was the number 1 goal for all of them, wouldn't hordes of the top players be choosing to remain with their clubs for the summer, instead of going off on inter county duty? The fact that they don't, shows what the priorities are for 99% of them.

The difference between Cross and most clubs is the prospect of success and holding your place in the team. What other club team would have left a player like Jamie Clarke on the bench when he returned to training? I know from my club's perspective if a player like that returned he would walk straight into the team. in most clubs the county player or players if they have two or three are streets ahead of their colleagues in terms of ability which means they are needed. The development squad system imo whilst good for developing county players also creates a situation in many cases where young players eager to succeed feel a greater affinity to the county than the club and from an early age prioritise county over club. Clubs accept this because they are talented players. Cross don't have that problem because in part they have a greater depth of talent and as BCB has said they also have a system for developing talent that is as good as the county's and a community cohesion that is enviable. In the case of Armagh the players from Cross on the county panel have the same level of control that a county player would normally have over his club. This doesn't mean that all county players do not have loyalty to their club or Cross players to the county, its just that they have choice and control. This is a theory of mine from observation over many years and I accept their will be exceptions.

[thebandit]

This club v county thing is a very interesting debate but actually a bit of a bluff in the exact case of Armagh. There are not many Cross players that are actually chosen to take the field for Armagh anyway. So if Cross abdicated now how many of their players would be put in the starting Armagh team? Probably James Morgan is the only guaranteed starter. Then Tony Kernan, Kyle Carragher, and David McKenna might (but only might) get a chance.

There is not half an Armagh side waiting to come back. I think Cross are great ambassadors for Armagh and I wish Down had a club side that could deliver us All-Ireland titles in a fallow period of county football

No Paul Hughes???

Young Oisin O'Neill will feature for Armagh seniors in 2017 I'd say

[Over the Bar]

Utter dung.  Have you even played at senior level???

[Il Bomber Destro]

Well said ziggy. No better feeling than winning a championship with your club.

Although Tony is on the wind up, he represents a section of Armagh fans who follow the county team but have next to nothing to do with their clubs. This is probably because armagh club football isn't the most enticing and with the success of late 90s-late 00s there has been an emergence of Armagh fan who don't follow the club scene at all (not that you can blame them). Go to any club championship match in armagh you will see feck all compared to other counties but when the county side are playing you'll always get a fair sized crowd home or away. A lot of those people take for granted the importance of the club

I don't believe I am doing this but Tony is different from a lot of the New Age Armagh fans in that he has a history of supporting the county and his club in Tir na nOg.  The one thing I would say though is he is opinions are reflective of many of the New Age fans as well.  The thing is that we are streets ahead of the rest of the clubs in what we are doing and the players, no doubt, see that at first hand.  It is very difficult for some of them to commit when they don't see the level of preparation, coaching etc that they expect.  The one thing I would say though is that history has shown that Cross players have been the bedrock of most of the successful Armagh teams throughout history and to doubt our clubs commitment to the Armagh cause is false and insulting.  Every team that has won a national title for Armagh has had a minimum 2 Cross men.  We have provided more county All Stars than any other cub.  We have provided our facilities for the use of the county on many occasions and when they had no ground we were the club that were able to keep that side of the thing running.  We are no different in many ways than any other club who would do that if they were able to but to suggest that we don't support the county is wrong.

Do you think that if a Cross man was in charge of the county team that they would get a much bigger commitment from the Crossmaglen players?

In a way you can understand that players who aren't getting regular playing time would rather be with their clubs and would be feeling a lot of pressure from them to ditch the county, particularly when they are down so many first choice players through being unavailable.

If every Cross player made himself available for Armagh at the minute, I would speculate that they would have 11 on the county panel - Hearty, Hughes, Rushe, McKeown, Morgan, Aaron Kernan, Hanratty, Oisin O'Neill, Tony Kernan, Clarke and Carragher. Of those players I would say Hearty, Morgan, two Kernans and Clarke would be definite starters and I think Carragher, Hughes and O'Neill would be pushing hard for places as well and would see involvement. The likes of Rushe, McKeown and Hanratty would probably be more squad depth and would struggle to get minutes. Now, I know Hearty and Aaron Kernan have retired so fair enough but I do think that the success and dedication to the club has serious repercussions for the county team in Armagh.

[smelmoth]

Do you think that if a Cross man was in charge of the county team that they would get a much bigger commitment from the Crossmaglen players?

The Cross contender to manage is Tony McEntee. If he was the Armagh manager the Cross players and a few more would be upping their commitment.

In a way you can understand that players who aren't getting regular playing time would rather be with their clubs and would be feeling a lot of pressure from them to ditch the county, particularly when they are down so many first choice players through being unavailable

True of all clubs - i accept that might be the point you are making

If every Cross player made himself available for Armagh at the minute, I would speculate that they would have 11 on the county panel - Hearty, Hughes, Rushe, McKeown, Morgan, Aaron Kernan, Hanratty, Oisin O'Neill, Tony Kernan, Clarke and Carragher. Of those players I would say Hearty, Morgan, two Kernans and Clarke would be definite starters and I think Carragher, Hughes and O'Neill would be pushing hard for places as well and would see involvement. The likes of Rushe, McKeown and Hanratty would probably be more squad depth and would struggle to get minutes. Now, I know Hearty and Aaron Kernan have retired so fair enough but I do think that the success and dedication to the club has serious repercussions for the county team in Armagh.

I think we are struggling for a top flight keeper. The most convincing contender since Hearty was Geohegan but I am not sure if he is available. But Hearty was creaking in his last days in the Armagh jersey. Too many mistakes and bad decisions. Cannot see how you would make him a starter.
I agree that Rushe and O'Neill should be called up. It might be a bit early for them, especially O'Neill but being around the set up can't do any harm as long as they are allowed to play for the clubs when the club season gets going.
Aaron is retired. Get used to it. Clarke is not in the running for the time being. 
Hanratty is tried and tested but at county level, failed the test.
Hughes, McKeown & Carragher are worth a call especially the first 2 when we are light on defenders.
Morgan is a cert but Tony is at a stage where he might decide to let it go

[Il Bomber Destro]

Do you think that if a Cross man was in charge of the county team that they would get a much bigger commitment from the Crossmaglen players?

The Cross contender to manage is Tony McEntee. If he was the Armagh manager the Cross players and a few more would be upping their commitment.

In a way you can understand that players who aren't getting regular playing time would rather be with their clubs and would be feeling a lot of pressure from them to ditch the county, particularly when they are down so many first choice players through being unavailable

True of all clubs - i accept that might be the point you are making

If every Cross player made himself available for Armagh at the minute, I would speculate that they would have 11 on the county panel - Hearty, Hughes, Rushe, McKeown, Morgan, Aaron Kernan, Hanratty, Oisin O'Neill, Tony Kernan, Clarke and Carragher. Of those players I would say Hearty, Morgan, two Kernans and Clarke would be definite starters and I think Carragher, Hughes and O'Neill would be pushing hard for places as well and would see involvement. The likes of Rushe, McKeown and Hanratty would probably be more squad depth and would struggle to get minutes. Now, I know Hearty and Aaron Kernan have retired so fair enough but I do think that the success and dedication to the club has serious repercussions for the county team in Armagh.

I think we are struggling for a top flight keeper. The most convincing contender since Hearty was Geohegan but I am not sure if he is available. But Hearty was creaking in his last days in the Armagh jersey. Too many mistakes and bad decisions. Cannot see how you would make him a starter.
I agree that Rushe and O'Neill should be called up. It might be a bit early for them, especially O'Neill but being around the set up can't do any harm as long as they are allowed to play for the clubs when the club season gets going.
Aaron is retired. Get used to it. Clarke is not in the running for the time being. 
Hanratty is tried and tested but at county level, failed the test.
Hughes, McKeown & Carragher are worth a call especially the first 2 when we are light on defenders.
Morgan is a cert but Tony is at a stage where he might decide to let it go

I still don't think there is a better keeper in Armagh than Hearty. If Armagh had a decent keeper they would have made an All Ireland semi-final in 2014. It's not a position that requires any real fitness, his save against Douglas in the first half was very good on Saturday. Maybe it's more of the malaise of goalkeeping options in Armagh but I would think he is the best option still available having seen the incumbents since he retired.

Hanratty might be tried and tested but from the squads and team lists I've seen from Armagh this year, they only seem to have two actual midfielders int he squad - Findon and Rafferty.

As for the club thing, I think a lot more pressure would be exerted on the Cross lads than say for any other club team with county players. If they have 10-11 key players away from their clubs for the guts of 7-8 months with the county side, then they are going to be exerting a lot more pressure on the lads who are maybe not guaranteed starters. It seems that some of those lads just aren't prepared to bide their time.

I think we saw it to a degree last season with Tyrone when Dwayne Quinn and PJ Lavery left the squad, there was clearly some pressure on these lads from the club I feel. Lavery had actually been involved in most of the league games but I don't think he started any of them, Quinn only played against Cork but he was the first choice reserve corner back and was only an injury of suspension away from getting in. These two lads weren't willing to bide their time and at the end of the day it's up to the individual. Tyrone can withstand these kind of withdrawals but I don't think Armagh can.

In recent years, Armagh seem to have had a lot of the better players in the county not giving the commitment. I do think the potential is there for them to do much better than they have been. I don't think 2014 was a fluke run for them at all, they just happened to have the vast bulk of the best players fit and committed and were sticking to a good gameplan.

When I look at the Ulster teams over the last 5/6 years I feel that Derry, Armagh and Down should have been doing an awful lot better with the players in the county. There has been something wrong with these counties in terms of players not putting the commitment in that the other Ulster counties have got. You can point to Down and say that some of those players were getting on which they were and I think the future for them looks bleak as the players aren't there for them now.

Look at Down after 2010 for instance, it was probably that team's peak but they still had another window of 3-4 years where they could have got an Ulster Championship but a lot of those lads just seemed to pack it in after that, some of them with injury and others like they just had given the ghost up.

Guys like Rodgers, Gordon, McComiskey, King, Hughes, Rafferty (all top players)played very little county football after 2010 and as well as losing Marty Clarke it really put an end to them. Some of them were injuries but others seemed to just be commitment. Maybe it's harder for Ulster teams to see the light at the end of the tunnel because to win an Ulster title is so difficult. Down, Fermanagh, Donegal and Derry all made All Ireland semi-finals in the 2001-2010 period yet were never able to win a provincial title during that time. I think that might be a reason why some of these guys downed tools and called an early day on it.

[PAULD123]

Guys like Rodgers, Gordon, McComiskey, King, Hughes, Rafferty (all top players)played very little county football after 2010 and as well as losing Marty Clarke...

Down lost a lot of players but apart from King every one you mentioned above was lost  to injury or emigration, of our 2010 squad:

Gordon - Broken foot
Rafferty - Groin (never played again)
Garvey - Terrible eye injury at work
King - Accountancy exams and career demands
Fitzpatrick - Emigrated (but did return)
Hughes - Back injury
McComiskey - Slipped disc
John Clarke - retired
Marty Clarke - emigrated (Aussie rules)
Rodgers - Cruciate
Murtagh - Knee
Doyle - Knee

Only McVeigh, McCartan, McKernan, Poland, Coulter stayed as regulars. A load of those players above were in an out but never fully fit. Commitment was not the problem. Now a lot of time has passed but we are missing McComiskey, Gordon, King, McParland, Laverty who no longer want to play and that is a sad indictment of the attitude of recent managers and the style of football played. So now YES there is a commitment problem.

Would Armagh perhaps be heading down the same line? - First injuries causing teh problem then gradually the rubbish football approach combined with huge demands meaning commitment fading too? or perhaps too much is being made of one man's desire to live his life a bit.