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Messages - The Hill is Blue

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1
Anything that develops hurling in Dublin can only be positive. I spent long enough up there in areas that never saw a hurl and if it wasn't for the efforts of the die-hards in clubs like O Tooles and Vincents and some teachers in National schools (often the same diehards) the game would be non-existent on the northside. Gaelscoileanna, particularly at second level gave it a great boost as did the forward-seeing decision to allow Dublin Schools play an amalgamated side in Leinster Colleges. The lure of football was as strong long before any development money was ever put into Dublin. So here's one man hoping that this is an enlightened decision and hoping to see a Dublin team contesting and winning an All-Ireland title in the next few years.

Pat Gilroy and the bags of money he has access to may improve the fortunes of the Dublin senior hurling team but will it fûck develop hurling in any real way.


Underage hurling in Dublin has progressed well over the past twelve years with the minors and U21s winning a number of Leinster titles. The challenge now is to maintain this progress and see the potential of the young players realised at senior level.

Since Dublin's hurlers have not appeared in a senior final since 1961 and have not won one since 1938 I would assume that all lovers of Gaelic games everywhere would wish the county well in their efforts.

2
GAA Discussion / Re: Football Rule Changes
« on: October 02, 2017, 08:03:47 PM »
Financial Doping is the BIG Issue! F***ing S**tloads of money into one county and expecting all the rest to keep up with volunteers makes the whole thing farcical. Not to mention the HOME game farce we have to put up with every year.

Dublin are treated like royalty.

Some serious financial doping being done in Connaught, it a disgrace, wont some think of Leitrim please.

Mayo 1,632,448 compared to Leitrims  378,101. EUR

Crazy stuff.

Look, I know you're not the sharpest tool in the box and with the big step up into secondary school, things cant be easy for you but surely to god even you can figure out why a team who played in the championship over 3 months longer then the other may spend more money.

And that's simplifying it for you. I wouldn't even dare ask you to consider other expenses like underage team, players TRAVELLING to training, stays in Dublin for matches in croke park, etc etc.

Instead of all this money been pumped into Dublin GAA I think consideration should be put into spending a few more bob on the education system in the capital.

We Dubs may not match up to the academic excellence of the average Mayo man - but we are All Ireland champions   :P

3
GAA Discussion / Re: All Ireland Football Final 2017 Mayo V Dublin
« on: September 30, 2017, 05:15:18 PM »
I'm only going by the TV clip, but was the Dubs' cynicism at the end as bad as suggested? I think Ciaran Kilkenny got involved with Keegan, possibly after noticing Keegan throw the GPS at Dean Rock. Other than that I don't see anything too outrageous. Then again, Cormac Costello was acting the maggot I suppose.

Well spotted. I was quite close to that incident.

5
GAA Discussion / Re: We need to talk about Diarmuid
« on: September 30, 2017, 11:59:23 AM »
Claudine and Robbie Keane at Syls v Vincent's game. Claudine's brother was playing for Syls.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sportsfile/status/913851501268922368/photo/1


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The first unbeatable team I was aware of was Kerry.

The first unbeatable team that I was aware of was Galway 1964/1966.  ;)

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Barney Rock goal v Galway 1983

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck1Gncwz96M

8
Are you mad? ""The Dubs are winning because of money" argument doesn't stack up imo. They have won 6 Sams since 1990. "

4 or 5 of them are in the last 6 or 7 years. It absolutely correlates with the revamped approach to Dublin. And the once in the lifetime group of players are slowly being eroded. Bernard Brogan, Diarmuid Connolly, MDMA were all peripheral this year. Cluxton is probably the only real cog from back then, and he's a goalkeeper.

It has become a given among some posters on this forum that Dublin are winning "because of money" when of course there are many factors which can contribute towards the emergence of a successful senior football team. Factors which include:

- Quality of strategic planning and leadership at County Board level
- Active participation by parents at juvenile level
- Dedicated school teachers promoting Gaelic games
- A long-term underage player development strategy
- Participation and leadership by ex-players at club level in encouraging juvenile participation in Gaelic games.
- Quality of the management of under-age and senior county teams.
- Availability of some extraordinarily gifted players.
- Relative weakness of other counties at a given time.
- Luck (without this many of the above factors just don't matter).   

Who is to say (or prove) which factor or combination of factors might contribute most to the emergence of a successful team?

Some people are pointing to the fact that Dublin's newer players are evidence that there is something different and new about the emergence of this Dublin team. But it has often been the case that very successful teams generate such an interest among the next generation of players that a number of gifted young players will emerge. There are many examples:

After most of the great Dublin team of the 1950s had retired gifted young players like Des Foley, Mickey Whelan, Paddy Holden and Simon Behan brought Dublin the Sam Maguire in 1963.

The Dublin team of the 70s made way for players like John O'Leary, Ciaran Duff, Barney Rock and Joe McNally, winners in 1983.

The great Meath team of the late 80s was supplemented by players such Graham Geraghty, Trevor Giles, Tommy Dowd and Darren Fay to win in 1996 and 1999.

So the emergence of talented young players on the coattails of a great team is quiet normal and not an indication of a seismic change in anything.   

9
The first unbeatable team I was aware of was Kerry. The second was Liverpool. The third was Shamrock Rovers. And the greatest of these was Shamrock Rovers. Because they were the biggest fish in the smallest pond and they kept on winning. They had an engine that consisted of Byrnes. You would get a pain in your hole listening to Philip Green reporting on them. Eventually the regime collapsed.

Liverpool were a machine. They could win European Cups. You could get Liverpool pyjamas in Galway. That is how good they were. If someone had gone into the playground and said Liverpool would not win the league for 25 years all the lads would have laughed. Ha ha. Very funny.

Kerry won 4 in a row but suffered 2 ambushes in 82 and 83. You were watching the 82 final with your father. The goal was unbelievable. It was like the 96 hurling final. If Offaly are in the mood they can do that sort of thing. Bring a team down to earth.

The 83 mess allowed the Dubs to win a rare Sam.
Kerry came back for another 3 but they could go no further. They were useless in the early 90's.  That is why the Ulster teams could make hay.

Anyone who thinks Dublin will reign for ever and ever hallelujah hallelujah should read up on Prussia. Hegemony is never permanent. Only stupidity is permanent.

Absolutely correct
You got it in one!
 God love poor Seafóid, he is living up to his name. HIs analogies are colourful but very wide of the mark.
Unless the political and economic faces of Ireland change very dramatically, Dublin will keep getting stronger in every sense while gap between it and the rest of the country will continue to widen.
It was a case of primus inter pares, first among equals, for the examples he quoted but when it comes to Dublin vs The Rest, there is one very important difference: Greater Dublin has 40% of the Republic’s population right now but official estimates expect that percentage to rise to 50% by 2040.
Along with its 40% of the people, Dublin has 50% of the nation’s resources, according to Simon Coveney, and the imbalance will continue to increase as time goes by.
One team to represent half the country’s population is unlikely to be toppled from its preeminent position any time soon.

The arguement that Dublin's population "advantage" will inevitably result in them monopolising the football championship is not supported by the evidence. Just look at the relative strengths of the county teams around the country and compare these to their populations.

If we accept that Mayo is the strongest/second strongest team in the country, look at the counties south of the border with bigger populations (apart from Dublin) who are rated below them:

Cork
Galway
Kildare
Limerick
Meath
Tipperary
Donegal
Wexford
Kerry
Wicklow

Bigger populations don't in themselves lead to better teams.




10
GAA Discussion / Re: Ladies GAA Finals
« on: September 24, 2017, 03:33:19 PM »
COYGIB

11
GAA Discussion / Re: All Ireland Football Final 2017 Mayo V Dublin
« on: September 24, 2017, 02:56:43 PM »
A week on from the match and it's just about fading from the memory but then I'm not from Mayo so I imagine that it will take a while longer to get over that defeat. The wooden reaction from Dublin to winning, the cynicism and lack of emotion from management is hard to fathom. I've always admired this Dublin team for the way they play the game but I do agree that they are becoming too formulaic, robotic and frankly uniteresting away from football. It's like they are in an army and have become institutionalised. They have become a team to be admired yet not loved. Mayo on the other hand, although they lost the match, won the hearts and minds of the public even more after last Sunday and I hope when the dust settles that they give it one last collective push to win an AI title.

Wooden reaction? Would you rather Jim Gavin ran on to the field and completely ignored Rockford? Would you rather they didn't commiserate with the Mayo lads? You say wooden I say respectful.

I presume Gavin has devoted countless hours over the last year to winning an AI title with Dublin and last Sunday was the culmination of all this work. The season was over, he could have been a bit more open in his interviews but instead it was like he was still reading from a pre prepared script. Cluxton the same. If you can't enjoy the moment after a long season then ultimately what is the point. It was almost like Monday was the first day of next season and he didn't want to let his guard down again. Don't get me wrong I admire Gavin and he has done a remarkable job but if they want to be a team that the public can really enjoy and relate to then there has to be room for a little self expression from his players. Instead they appear to be living in a bubble of over professionalism.


I can assure you that Dublin supporters are very happy with the way Dublin players and management present themselves. These lads are not circus ponies who should be expected to perform for the media whenever required.

Dublin supports prefer to focus on the magnificent achievements of their extraordinary team.
Dublin are not Melchester Rovers. They are something duller. If Carlsberg made boring it would be Cluxton.

I'd like to see you stand up in front of eighty thousand people in Croke Park. I suspect that like most of us you wouldn't sparkle. It's a pity that you can't focus on the fact that Stephen Cluxton is one of the most influential footballers of our generation - or is that too hard for you to acknowledge?

12
GAA Discussion / Re: All Ireland Football Final 2017 Mayo V Dublin
« on: September 24, 2017, 01:27:35 PM »
A week on from the match and it's just about fading from the memory but then I'm not from Mayo so I imagine that it will take a while longer to get over that defeat. The wooden reaction from Dublin to winning, the cynicism and lack of emotion from management is hard to fathom. I've always admired this Dublin team for the way they play the game but I do agree that they are becoming too formulaic, robotic and frankly uniteresting away from football. It's like they are in an army and have become institutionalised. They have become a team to be admired yet not loved. Mayo on the other hand, although they lost the match, won the hearts and minds of the public even more after last Sunday and I hope when the dust settles that they give it one last collective push to win an AI title.

Wooden reaction? Would you rather Jim Gavin ran on to the field and completely ignored Rockford? Would you rather they didn't commiserate with the Mayo lads? You say wooden I say respectful.

I presume Gavin has devoted countless hours over the last year to winning an AI title with Dublin and last Sunday was the culmination of all this work. The season was over, he could have been a bit more open in his interviews but instead it was like he was still reading from a pre prepared script. Cluxton the same. If you can't enjoy the moment after a long season then ultimately what is the point. It was almost like Monday was the first day of next season and he didn't want to let his guard down again. Don't get me wrong I admire Gavin and he has done a remarkable job but if they want to be a team that the public can really enjoy and relate to then there has to be room for a little self expression from his players. Instead they appear to be living in a bubble of over professionalism.


I can assure you that Dublin supporters are very happy with the way Dublin players and management present themselves. These lads are not circus ponies who should be expected to perform for the media whenever required.

Dublin supports prefer to focus on the magnificent achievements of their extraordinary team.

13
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: September 24, 2017, 12:28:43 PM »


Keith Duggan in The Irish Times:

New-look Dublin have wiped the smile off the country’s face

Fifteen years ago, when there was heady talk of using the River Liffey to split Dublin into two North and South Dublin fortresses, among the voices expressing concern and outrage came a thoughtful observation by Tommy Lyons, who had the head-wrecking task of managing the Dubs at the time.

“The country by and large loves Dublin to be there or thereabouts but don’t want them winning anything. They like to keep them in isolation and that is what’s happened. That’s our tribal warfare and that’s what keeps the association thriving.”

He hit the nail on the head. In 2002, everyone agreed that the Dubs were indeed ‘box office’; guaranteed to pack Croke Park in the dog days of August and illuminating Dorset St with a blustery localised expectation. To national delight, they could usually be relied upon to crash and burn at some stage, allowing their flintier brethren from down the country to do the actual winning and speechifying.

In 2002, Dublin had been All-Ireland champions just once since Kevin Heffernan’s swansong All-Ireland of 1983. The main point of the review committee was to make the capital’s burgeoning population more manageable for the GAA; the thinking was that handling a million-plus people was simply too many sandwiches for any one county board to make.

Using the dirty old river as a clean divide, it was possible to dream up a scenario in which there were two city teams.

“People must remember that even if Dublin is split it will still be the two biggest counties in terms of its population” said Peter Quinn, chair of the review.

Diarmuid Connolly was 15-years-old when that review came out. James McCarthy was 12. Neither teenager could have had much of a living memory reference to the notion of Dublin winning All-Irelands. The GAA and government rush to fund Dublin GAA had already begun. But you have to assume that by then, hundreds of volunteer coaching hours had already gone into the training of both Connolly and McCarthy and their peers.

In 2002, Connolly’s club, St Vincent’s, was locked in a time-trap. The club hadn’t won a Dublin senior title since 1984. Whatever money was going into the development and future welfare of Dublin football didn’t really matter to whoever it was in Vincent’s that worked with the ten-year-old Connolly on developing the unblemished kicking technique that featured in Sunday’s final.

And it is well documented that Paddy Christie, who was Dublin’s full back in 2002, saw that nothing was happening to bring kids through in Ballymun so he took it on himself to organise underage training. Among the players that wandered along were Dean Rock, Philly McMahon and James McCarthy. It’s impossible to prove this, but there is a decent argument to be made that if those three players – just those three – decided Gaelic football wasn’t for them, then Dublin would not have won any of its recent All-Irelands.

Lavish theatre

In 2002, Dublin beat Donegal in the All-Ireland quarter-final after a replay. There was a sense that the Dubs were going somewhere; that they were a coming force. But then they went and fell apart against Joe Kernan’s fabulous Armagh side in the All-Ireland semi-final. That game was a vivid manifestation of the point that Lyons had made in January. Armagh had come along and made a bonfire of Dublin vanities and around the country, everybody loved it.

The Dubs were like this lavish theatre, providing the stadium, the pubs, the shady car-parking arrangements and the Greek chorus on the Hill. But when the pressure came, they cracked up.

They looked scared of Armagh; scared of their muscles and scared of their ambition. Armagh won and that segued into the Tyrone-Armagh era and in the subsequent years, the Dublin North and South idea was quietly shelved as a succession of counties delighted in giving the city boys from both sides of the river their comeuppance. And the country was just fine with this arrangement.

It could go on forever.

They can’t really say this in Kerry but deep down, there must be a feeling in the Kingdom that they let the genie out of the bottle in that All-Ireland final of 2011. Dublin’s enormous potential as an All-Ireland serial winner was there for everyone to see. But the more they failed, the more defined their role as glamorous losers seemed to be. Kerry didn’t close out that game and the Dubs caught them with a late brilliant rush through the gates and since then, everything has changed.

The dominance of Dublin under Jim Gavin has led to a nationwide conclusion that the beast has finally been stirred. The population and heavy financial backing and corporate appeal have led to the mathematical equation of limitless All-Irelands in their future.

But that possible future diminishes the achievement of this year’s team. Also, there is a nagging sense that if you take out just a handful of people from the Dublin GAA scene just now – Jim Gavin, Pat Gilroy, John Costello, Stephen Cluxton, McCarthy and Connolly – they simply won’t be replaced. Not ‘take out’ in a Tony Soprano sense but just imagine Dublin without their on-field and off-field influences and maybe the big monster doesn’t look quite as scary; maybe the composure piece doesn’t look quite as composed.

It could well be that Dublin will go on to complete a five-in-a-row. And it stands to reason that if such a densely populated county improves its city coaching structure so that the best 30 kids every year are identified and given the best training and funnelled through so that two or maybe three progress to the Dublin senior squad, then they should be a perpetual force; should quickly catch Kerry’s all-time horde of All-Irelands and realise their potential as the most dominant team in the country.

The fear that the GAA has created something beyond its control may well be proven true. And in the future years, it could be borne out that no other county can live with the best that Dublin offer.

But right now, in 2017, this Dublin team has emerged from a culture of falling short to national delight. They have turned it around. There are nameless people all over the city who will believe that the unpaid hours they gave to Cian O’Sullivan or to Cluxton or to Eoghan O’Gara have, in a small intangible way, contributed to this dynastic run.

So Dublin are no longer there or thereabouts. Dublin are there to stay. Nobody seems sure how to respond. Splitting the county should no more be an option in Dublin than it is for Kerry. The lure of the GAA is playing for your county, not playing for half of it.

So now, the GAA needs a strategic review to offer solutions as to how to at least keep the illusion of a national competition alive. A quick glance at the provincial and national winners scroll shows that nothing has really changed. Laois have won a single Leinster senior championship since 1945. Louth have not won in Leinster since 1957, Wexford since 1945 and Offaly since 1997.

Their fortunes have not been affected by Dublin’s surge. It was always Dublin’s world: they just didn’t know it. All that has happened in the last five years is that Dublin have gotten serious and nobody is laughing now.




14
...
THe 2016 census showed modest increases in all counties bar Mayo but don’t let that fool you. The flood of non-nationals moving into all parts of Ireland during the period 2011-2016 brought up the figures and masked the drop of in the native populations of those counties. Dublin grows bigger and stronger while the western seaboard is losing ground all the time and the GAA membership reflects this in both instances, rural downwards and urban upwards.
...

Tut, tut... you mean non-Irish nationals surely? Or are you stating that these individuals are nationals of nowhere? :P
Fear, you are having a really sloooow day!
You should know that in common parlance, the term I used means what I meant it to mean, if you know what I mean.
Most of us are bright enough to know that those non Irish nationals are natives of some country and it's tautology to emphasise that fact.

I hear you Lar, loud and clear, however this non-national is a lazy negative term that sickens my hole: why not something positive like overseas national? In these xenophobically febrile times there are too many boneheads just chomping at the racist bit to denigrate our fellow travellers with anything that denotes a substandard status, we should not indulge!

And tough, tough luck on Sunday last a chara ;)

Young people with connections abroad are playing Gaelic games throughout the country. Last Sunday we saw young Devidas Uosis perform at the highest level for the Kerry minors.

15
GAA Discussion / Re: All Ireland Football Final 2017 Mayo V Dublin
« on: September 21, 2017, 10:02:50 AM »
I think I've had three reasonable answers to the questions I posed and thanks to those who took the trouble to reply.
The attitude to the negative policies of some, especially northern, counties was my main interest.
It seems all of us believe that the end justifies the means and that whatever it takes to win comes before entertaining anyone. Now, Dub supporters by and large were very critical of Tyrone  and their negative tactics in the semi, forgetting it seems that Mickey &co. were more afraid of losing rather that confident of winning.
They played the way that gave them the best prospect of winning as they couldn't hope to match the Dubs if they went toe to toe. It was a case of damage limitation before the ref threw the ball in. They knew they weren't going to score much but they concentrated on trying to prevent Dublin scoring more than them and feck the spectacle.
I imagine Mayo is the only county that wouldn't go on the back foot when playing Dublin but I may be biased here. However, I don't think so.
@The Greatest.
No, I don't blame the Dubs for Mayo's defeats in any year you care to mention. I wasn't referring to Mayo in any sense. It's just that the Hill is Blue fella always struck me as a reasonable individual but the stuff he came out with in his last post astounded me. Talk about cliches and generalisations!  I get a lot of that stuff in my local alright but I was curious to see how many Dubs would think the way he does.

Lar, I'm puzzled as to which post of mine you're referring.

I think he's mixing you up with someone else
Lar, stay with the program. its Hill16 Blues and I wouldn't be really putting much thought into what that jackass say.
You are right Criost, I mistook the troll for one of the more sensible posters on this forum.
This goes back to a post on page 33, before the game, when I answered a query from Wildweasel , looking for info on Mayo's training expenses.(Or something like that.)
 I gave him the figures for both Mayo and Dublin, which I'm confident are correct.
Imagine my surprise when The Hill is Blue replied saying it was time to cut out the bitching and enjoy the prospect of the game.
As there wasn't an iota of bitching in my post, this was the last reply I expected from him. Then when I saw "Hill" and "Blue" in the troll's post, I jumped to a wrong conclusion. Bejaysus, I thought if The Hill is Blue is thinking like that, what's going on on the Dublin side of the divide?
I suppose you could take this as a backhanded compliment  as I know it wasn't likely for him to stoop that low. I
jumped to the wrong conclusion and decided to see what genuine Dub supporters thought about what had been posted here.

Fair dues to you Lar  ;)

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