The ulster rugby trial

[Milltown Row2]

These guys will walk.

Careful now, Syferus will say you mask is slipping or melted away and Gab will say disturbing!

[Asal Mor]

Mucker it's not just the fact that she took her top off. It's that she wants the jury to believe she did it under intimidation but can't remember who told her to take it off. I've said that 2 or 3 times already though and you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your point.

Seanie, you're getting as bad as Syf for the condescending, self-righteous remarks and it seems to be a theme with one side of the argument in this thread.

Apologies Asal Mor, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you.  I just don't find the claim that she cant remember who told her to, as that important.  Again, it will be up to the jury to determine how much weight they put in that, but I cant imagine someone with all the relevant information and evidence placing much on it.

Sorry Mucker I was a bit stroppy on my way to an 11 hour shift at work. I do think if she'd been told in a threatening enough way to make her take off her top when she didn't want to, that she'd remember though.

[Gabriel_Hurl]

These guys will walk.

Careful now, Syferus will say you mask is slipping or melted away and Gab will say disturbing!

[Asal Mor]

Compliance makes perfect sense in a threatening situation. There doesn't appear to me to have ever been the case made that the alleged victim was in fear of violence or felt threatened. Compliance in a non-threatening situation does not make sense, especially when there were numerous opportunities to ask for help, or extricate from situation.

The most sensible post I've seen on this thread.

[Syferus]

Compliance makes perfect sense in a threatening situation. There doesn't appear to me to have ever been the case made that the alleged victim was in fear of violence or felt threatened. Compliance in a non-threatening situation does not make sense, especially when there were numerous opportunities to ask for help, or extricate from situation.

The most sensible post I've seen on this thread.

Jesus. Do you only quote things that explain how the probable rapists were justified or am I missing a lot of posts?

[Milltown Row2]

Compliance makes perfect sense in a threatening situation. There doesn't appear to me to have ever been the case made that the alleged victim was in fear of violence or felt threatened. Compliance in a non-threatening situation does not make sense, especially when there were numerous opportunities to ask for help, or extricate from situation.

The most sensible post I've seen on this thread.

Jesus. Do you only quote things that explain how the probably rapists were justified or am I missing a lot of posts?

Probably rapists? You not well?

[HiMucker]

Mucker it's not just the fact that she took her top off. It's that she wants the jury to believe she did it under intimidation but can't remember who told her to take it off. I've said that 2 or 3 times already though and you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your point.

Seanie, you're getting as bad as Syf for the condescending, self-righteous remarks and it seems to be a theme with one side of the argument in this thread.

Apologies Asal Mor, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you.  I just don't find the claim that she cant remember who told her to, as that important.  Again, it will be up to the jury to determine how much weight they put in that, but I cant imagine someone with all the relevant information and evidence placing much on it.

Sorry Mucker I was a bit stroppy on my way to an 11 hour shift at work. I do think if she'd been told in a threatening enough way to make her take off her top when she didn't want to, that she'd remember though.

I would tend to agree.  I suppose I am challenging the idea that her taking off the top with out being told to do so in a threatening manner equals consent.

I think there is two main themes in this thread, one is the case itself and what people think the outcome would be, and the other is societal misconceptions, prejudices and views on the various aspects of rape.  Sometimes these are getting mixed together.
For example one poster thinks another is saying he his disturbing because he thinks the accused will get off.  I highly doubt thats why, and he doesn't realise that some of his comments have nothing do with whether they are innocent or guilty and can be construed as "victim blaming", regardless of innocence or guilt regarding the accused.
From what I have read, I would say there is a fair chance they will get off, that doesn't mean they are innocent, but the jury would need to believe beyond reasonable doubt to convict.

[Asal Mor]

Mucker it's not just the fact that she took her top off. It's that she wants the jury to believe she did it under intimidation but can't remember who told her to take it off. I've said that 2 or 3 times already though and you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your point.

Seanie, you're getting as bad as Syf for the condescending, self-righteous remarks and it seems to be a theme with one side of the argument in this thread.

Apologies Asal Mor, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you.  I just don't find the claim that she cant remember who told her to, as that important.  Again, it will be up to the jury to determine how much weight they put in that, but I cant imagine someone with all the relevant information and evidence placing much on it.

Sorry Mucker I was a bit stroppy on my way to an 11 hour shift at work. I do think if she'd been told in a threatening enough way to make her take off her top when she didn't want to, that she'd remember though.

I would tend to agree.  I suppose I am challenging the idea that her taking off the top with out being told to do so in a threatening manner equals consent.

We live in strange times though. A girl follows a guy back to his house, goes to his room -twice, kissing the first time, sex the second time without any apparent aggression or physical force even by the girl's account and seemingly without a sliver of resistance on the girl's part and this is rape?

Far from a victim blaming culture I think we live in a victim worshipping culture where the girl is praised for being courageous and PJ's and Olding's careers are finished regardless of the likelihood they will be found not guilty(you never know though in the current culture)and even though they don't seem to have forced themselves on the girl in any way and she doesn't seem to have indicated to them in any way that she wasn't consenting to what they were doing.

I don't think the girl is lying exactly, I just think she's convinced herself she's a victim through shame and humiliation and being told she's a victim by those around her. I suspect she drunkenly went along with it until the 3rd guy walked in and felt disgusted by what had happened almost immediately. That's her own mistake though.

[Syferus]

Mucker it's not just the fact that she took her top off. It's that she wants the jury to believe she did it under intimidation but can't remember who told her to take it off. I've said that 2 or 3 times already though and you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your point.

Seanie, you're getting as bad as Syf for the condescending, self-righteous remarks and it seems to be a theme with one side of the argument in this thread.

Apologies Asal Mor, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you.  I just don't find the claim that she cant remember who told her to, as that important.  Again, it will be up to the jury to determine how much weight they put in that, but I cant imagine someone with all the relevant information and evidence placing much on it.

Sorry Mucker I was a bit stroppy on my way to an 11 hour shift at work. I do think if she'd been told in a threatening enough way to make her take off her top when she didn't want to, that she'd remember though.

I would tend to agree.  I suppose I am challenging the idea that her taking off the top with out being told to do so in a threatening manner equals consent.

We live in strange times though. A girl follows a guy back to his house, goes to his room -twice, kissing the first time, sex the second time without any apparent aggression or physical force even by the girl's account and seemingly without a sliver of resistance on the girl's part and this is rape?

Far from a victim blaming culture I think we live in a victim worshipping culture where the girl is praised for being courageous and PJ's and Olding's careers are finished regardless of the likelihood they will be found not guilty(you never know though in the current culture)and even though they don't seem to have forced themselves on the girl in any way and she doesn't seem to have indicated to them in any way that she wasn't consenting to what they were doing.

I don't think the girl is lying exactly, I just think she's convinced herself she's a victim through shame and humiliation and being told she's a victim by those around her. I suspect she drunkenly went along with it until the 3rd guy walked in and felt disgusted by what had happened almost immediately. That's her own mistake though.

You are a creepy, regressive excuse for a man.

If anyone really thinks they are not living in a society that is entirely weighted towards the patriarchy their sheer ignorance disqualifies them from having a meaningful opinion on rape victims, who are mainly female. "Rape worshipping culture" may be one of the most horrendous things yet posted on this forum (and that's saying something) because it's so painfully obvious it's being said with a straight face. You then go on to somehow pretend that the alleged rapists' inconsistent, scarcely believable and plaintively self-serving police interviews paint a truthful picture of events that night. Even a child could punch a thousand holes in your attempted hypothesis.

Writing a literal fan fiction of how the rape victim convinced herself of being raped because of "shame and humiliation" just to attempt to disguise your own bias against rape victims behind a flimsy veneer of reasoning is frankly abhorrent and has no place in this or any discussion.

[Asal Mor]

You're so hysterical you misquote me then proclaim it to be one of the most horrific things you've seen on the board. Pull yourself together man.

The point I was making was that if someone claims they are a victim of a rape they become unquestionable and are immediately lauded as courageous by the likes of you while the accused are already rapists in the eyes of progressive people like yourself and even if found not guilty are ruined.

I can see inconsistencies on both sides. You can only see them on one.

[Milltown Row2]

Syferus is disturbing

[Asal Mor]

Lots of people who try to pass themselves off as victims are victims of nothing more than their own decisions.

We saw it in the Harvey Weinstein case where there were some genuine victims of the man who were deserving of sympathy and retribution/compensation and some who were gold diggers happy to consent and take the money and fame at the time, also trying to pass themselves off as courageous victims of sexual abuse.

[Owen Brannigan]

You're so hysterical you misquote me then proclaim it to be one of the most horrific things you've seen on the board. Pull yourself together man.

The point I was making was that if someone claims they are a victim of a rape they become unquestionable and are immediately lauded as courageous by the likes of you while the accused are already rapists in the eyes of progressive people like yourself and even if found not guilty are ruined.

I can see inconsistencies on both sides. You can only see them on one.

+1

[RedHand88]

Syferus will of course issue a full unconditional apology if they are found not guilty.

[CiKe]

Syferus, sensitive subject but genuine question here.

Is there someone close to you who has been raped or sexually abused? I don't know what the hell happened that night, and my only sources for what went on are this board and Frank Greaney, but as I said earlier am leaning towards number three being the turning point. If that was the case it would make the guys innocent and not only, "not guilty".

On the limited info (second hand), it seems very difficult to me to reach a decision beyond reasonable doubt. Hence curiosity as to how you can  come down so clearly on one side.