Mother and Baby Home Report

[macdanger2]

Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There's a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn't end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.

Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.

Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?

It doesn't matter.

If claims are "fraudulent" as you put it, then ship those people out in a timely manner. Don't leave them and the (majority) of applicants hanging around in limbo for years.

 

[whitey]

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ireland/asylum.php

The "majority" of claims (77%) in 2019 were denied

[Snapchap]

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ireland/asylum.php

The "majority" of claims (77%) in 2019 were denied

So what? Abusing the human rights of the applicants and their families for profit is therefore acceptable?

[whitey]

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ireland/asylum.php

The "majority" of claims (77%) in 2019 were denied

So what? Abusing the human rights of the applicants and their families for profit is therefore acceptable?

The question was posed by a prior poster as  why people weren't outraged by the DP system

I haven't lived in Ireland for almost 35 years so I can't answer that question 

Maybe you can answer the question or start a new thread on the topic

[restorepride]

Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There's a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn't end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.

Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.

Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.

No doubt about that.  Created it, enforced it and used a system that would but MI5 to shame to monitor it - confessions. 

[Orior]

There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

Which schools?

Girls Model, Belfast

http://www.minimodeldaycare.co.uk/

[restorepride]

There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

Which schools?

Girls Model, Belfast

http://www.minimodeldaycare.co.uk/

Why not Boys' Model also?

[restorepride]

There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children's needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child's development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.

[Orior]

There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children's needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child's development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.

None whatsoever, but that is treating the symptom not the cause. The cause being underage sex. Why is sex amongst underage so prevalent? Is it lack of sex education? Or is it sex education? Is it because we've made porn so available to everyone? Is it because 11-12 year old girls think its cool to share naked pics of themselves? Is it what is shown on television?

It seems to me that society has moved from one extreme to the other. There is a happy medium, but I'm not sure how to get there.

[seafoid]

Teenage pregnancy is still a complex issue even though the country is richer and regardless of nation, single mothers with kids are the poorest sector of society. Even in Switzerland it's the same. It's all political.

Ireland pre 1960s was dirt poor, there was no education beyond 6th class for most people, there were very few jobs, the uneducated generally emigrated and there was no sex education.
It's very interesting that when Ireland joined the EEC in 1973 things changed. Female equality rose up in the agenda and the bullshit about illegitimacy became a target.

[Ed Ricketts]

There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children's needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child's development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.

None whatsoever, but that is treating the symptom not the cause. The cause being underage sex. Why is sex amongst underage so prevalent? Is it lack of sex education? Or is it sex education? Is it because we've made porn so available to everyone? Is it because 11-12 year old girls think its cool to share naked pics of themselves? Is it what is shown on television?

It seems to me that society has moved from one extreme to the other. There is a happy medium, but I'm not sure how to get there.

Teenage pregnancy rates in the north have been falling steadily for 20+ years. Your entire thesis is without foundation.

[restorepride]

There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children's needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child's development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.

None whatsoever, but that is treating the symptom not the cause. The cause being underage sex. Why is sex amongst underage so prevalent? Is it lack of sex education? Or is it sex education? Is it because we've made porn so available to everyone? Is it because 11-12 year old girls think its cool to share naked pics of themselves? Is it what is shown on television?

It seems to me that society has moved from one extreme to the other. There is a happy medium, but I'm not sure how to get there.

Teenage pregnancy rates in the north have been falling steadily for 20+ years. Your entire thesis is without foundation.

Totally agree. 

The answer is in bold - mainly brought about by a Catholic upbringing and attending Church Schools, especially Catholic ones. 

[APM]

Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There's a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn't end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.

Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.

Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.

Agree with all of that, but this couldn't have been facilitated without broader society and in particular the enthusiastic support of the pillars of the community (doctors, teachers and large farmers) who the system benefited.   

As they say, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The people who were strong enough to stand up to the church and stand out from the rest of society have to be admired.  The problem for many was the black and white thinking that was so common. If the right thing was considered the wrong thing by the church, then the good men and women who did the right thing, were considered renegades in the eyes of the unthinking populous. 

I remember a priest in our parish talking once about the challenge of greater levels of education versus faith.  The church really benefited from having many in their congregation that questioned nothing to the point of being soft with respect the church and its doctrine.  People talked about how good the nuns were to take in these "fallen women".

The point I am making here is that Irish society cannot absolve itself of these wrongs. The guilt of the church and state is not in question. But priests and nuns, good and bad, all came from Irish families.  Everyone attended mass, paid their dues and even the disgraceful funeral offerings.  From talking to older people, there was definitely an understanding among people, on a number of levels, that what was going on was wrong and those that sent their daughters to these places had to feel a serious sense of guilt.  There were alternatives and many unmarried mothers were supported by their families. 

[Main Street]

I have just read the summary report and delved into the report itself. The report is not fit for purpose, it miserably falls short in important areas .Apart from the truthfully recorded witness accounts not adulterated by pompous commentary or otherwise edited,  the report should be reserved until it is stripped of its patent nonsense and each witness statement confirmed.
The report denies that children were sold, contrary to all accepted wisdom. It denies that mothers were incarcerated against their wishes.  Astonishingly it denies that mothers were physically abused and denies that children were taken forcibly from their mothers.

[seafoid]

https://youtu.be/AWpsOqh8q0M

What counts is the public reaction now. Michael D and Joe Duffy  found the right tone. The money involved isn't going to make a huge difference compared to Covid spending.