Horan favours a two-tier football championship
GAA President John Horan has revealed he hopes to see the introduction of a two-tiered football championship before his term expires.
In a wide-ranging interview in today's Herald, Aogán Ó Fearghail's successor outlined his ambitions for his presidency and they include the splitting of the football championship in two by 2021.
"I would have hopes that we would end up with a two-tiered senior football championship. That would be one of my ambitions.
"I think if we put it together properly, we may get engagement. I think the previous attempt to put together such a competition didn't come to fruition.
"So as part of that review in three years' time, I would hope that we will end up with a two-tiered competition."
http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/282506 (http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/282506)
Thoughts on two tiers vs. three?
It's possible that two tiers may be more palatable to 'weaker' counties, but I think three tiers offers more scope for realistic & sustainable progression.
Still, it's a conversation that needs to happen sooner rather than later so i'm glad he's set his stall out this early.
Yeah, another thread on restructuring.
Seriously though, I look forward to he approaches it, what he comes up with and how it's received.
Agree with Jinxy that this subject needs to be discussed.
3 tiers FOR ALL IRELANDS ONLY. 12-12-8.
Everyone still plays in their Provincials.
It is really common sense at this juncture.
To the counties who either voluntary or involuntary initially end up in a second tier competition,
the GAA hopefully will (and should) commit serious funds to the development of underage football in those counties.
That I believe is the only way forward.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 14, 2018, 12:51:26 PM
Agree with Jinxy that this subject needs to be discussed.
3 tiers FOR ALL IRELANDS ONLY. 12-12-8.
Everyone still plays in their Provincials.
WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?
I don't think a GAA president has much of a say in things like this? He's there to cut ribbons for the openings of new pitches or Cente of excellences and to smile and talk a bit of Irish as cups are presented.
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Senior Semi Finals Seanie? You want the Junior Champions to be parachuted into an All Ireland semi final against Dublin and Mayo say?
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
I'm not sure you can call it progress. Duffy advocated a tiered-championship but there was no support for it.
Quote from: joemamas on March 14, 2018, 01:29:57 PM
It is really common sense at this juncture.
To the counties who either voluntary or involuntary initially end up in a second tier competition,
the GAA hopefully will (and should) commit serious funds to the development of underage football in those counties.
That I believe is the only way forward.
Certainly a big spoonful of sugar will be needed to make the medicine go down and the GPA should be looking for a paid team holiday for the winning players to appease them.
Didn't happen in the hurling though!
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2018, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Senior Semi Finals Seanie? You want the Junior Champions to be parachuted into an All Ireland semi final against Dublin and Mayo say?
OK so - 14, 10 and 8. Junior and Inter Championships have to be played earlier and let the winners into the race for Sam.??
Quote from: Syferus on March 14, 2018, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 14, 2018, 12:51:26 PM
Agree with Jinxy that this subject needs to be discussed.
3 tiers FOR ALL IRELANDS ONLY. 12-12-8.
Everyone still plays in their Provincials.
WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?
Because a lot of folk think/assume that lower tier teams wouldn't be allowed in the Provincials (like the hurley stuff).
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Three tiers equally promoted?
You must have spent a few hours in make believe land.
Whether you like it or not, a tiered system in any sport by its very nature creates a tiered profile. You cannot and should not try to pretend that the completions are equal.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2018, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Senior Semi Finals Seanie? You want the Junior Champions to be parachuted into an All Ireland semi final against Dublin and Mayo say?
This is based on a plan a friend of mine drew up and I misquoted it. Junior champions play intermediate runners up for a spot in the AI semi final. 10/12/12 Senior/Inter/Junior basis (including London, NY and KK or British Champions). At least the team coming through would have won a few championship games and theoretically every county can still win Sam Maguire.
Nothing to fear for the senior teams and counteracts practically all of the arguments against counties having to play at lower tiers.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 14, 2018, 04:31:56 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Three tiers equally promoted?
You must have spent a few hours in make believe land.
Whether you like it or not, a tiered system in any sport by its very nature creates a tiered profile. You cannot and should not try to pretend that the completions are equal.
There are steps the GAA can take to minimise that. Guaranteed live TV coverage for one.
What's your solution?
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2018, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Senior Semi Finals Seanie? You want the Junior Champions to be parachuted into an All Ireland semi final against Dublin and Mayo say?
This is based on a plan a friend of mine drew up and I misquoted it. Junior champions play intermediate runners up for a spot in the AI semi final. 10/12/12 Senior/Inter/Junior basis (including London, NY and KK or British Champions). At least the team coming through would have won a few championship games and theoretically every county can still win Sam Maguire.
Nothing to fear for the senior teams and counteracts practically all of the arguments against counties having to play at lower tiers.
I get you.
I still love the provincials, but if we wanted to have some sort of tiered approach, how about The 16 division 3 and division 4 teams play in a knockout game, with the 8 winners going to play the 8 division 2 teams, and then the 8 winners of that joining the division 1 teams in the last 16.
I just don't like the thoughts of tiers because of what it will do to their exposure and coverage. The players don't want it, and I think a lot of fans don't want it either. I accept a lot of fans do want something, but I think the tiered championship is largely a media construct because they don't want to waste time covering or talking about Carlow, Wicklow or Waterford.
Yes 3 tiers equally promoted. Open up Croke Park for 3682 people who turn up watch the Antrim v Waterford in Pat Spillane Cup. Not going to happen. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
It will need to be voted on by congress. You've more chance of the USA passing meaningful gun legislation than you have of the congress voting for a tiered competition.
The best thing that can happen is that Division 1 teams continuously hammer these weaker counties until the players no longer want to play for them. Unrelenting, unmerciful beatings is all these teams deserve and it must be served up to them in heaps. They're not good enough and should be reminded of that at every single juncture.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2018, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2018, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Senior Semi Finals Seanie? You want the Junior Champions to be parachuted into an All Ireland semi final against Dublin and Mayo say?
This is based on a plan a friend of mine drew up and I misquoted it. Junior champions play intermediate runners up for a spot in the AI semi final. 10/12/12 Senior/Inter/Junior basis (including London, NY and KK or British Champions). At least the team coming through would have won a few championship games and theoretically every county can still win Sam Maguire.
Nothing to fear for the senior teams and counteracts practically all of the arguments against counties having to play at lower tiers.
I get you.
I still love the provincials, but if we wanted to have some sort of tiered approach, how about The 16 division 3 and division 4 teams play in a knockout game, with the 8 winners going to play the 8 division 2 teams, and then the 8 winners of that joining the division 1 teams in the last 16.
I just don't like the thoughts of tiers because of what it will do to their exposure and coverage. The players don't want it, and I think a lot of fans don't want it either. I accept a lot of fans do want something, but I think the tiered championship is largely a media construct because they don't want to waste time covering or talking about Carlow, Wicklow or Waterford.
I was against it for a long time but reality needs to be faced. Why is the All-Ireland football championship the only non-tiered competition in the GAA? It's crazy.
We need to condense the county season and a tiered championship makes sense - especially if there's a backdoor route that can be accessed by all. I've no objection to playing provincial championships as well if time allows but as separate competitions with no bearing on the All-Ireland.
The players don't want what they saw before - a kiss me arse effort like the Tommy Murphy Cup. If a tiered championship in tandem with a properly structured calendar that supports club and county seasons is on the table I'll bet they'll got for it. County players are club players too.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2018, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Senior Semi Finals Seanie? You want the Junior Champions to be parachuted into an All Ireland semi final against Dublin and Mayo say?
This is based on a plan a friend of mine drew up and I misquoted it. Junior champions play intermediate runners up for a spot in the AI semi final. 10/12/12 Senior/Inter/Junior basis (including London, NY and KK or British Champions). At least the team coming through would have won a few championship games and theoretically every county can still win Sam Maguire.
Nothing to fear for the senior teams and counteracts practically all of the arguments against counties having to play at lower tiers.
Not a bad idea but maybe bring them in sooner, perhaps at the quarter-final stage.
And maybe keep two spots open instead of one, i.e. top two in Inter and Junior play off (1st v 2nd).
That way, you still have a serious shot at getting a day out in the sun, with the realistic chance of taking a big scalp (vs. being landed into a semi-final against Dublin, Mayo or Kerry).
Quote from: Jinxy on March 14, 2018, 04:45:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2018, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Senior Semi Finals Seanie? You want the Junior Champions to be parachuted into an All Ireland semi final against Dublin and Mayo say?
This is based on a plan a friend of mine drew up and I misquoted it. Junior champions play intermediate runners up for a spot in the AI semi final. 10/12/12 Senior/Inter/Junior basis (including London, NY and KK or British Champions). At least the team coming through would have won a few championship games and theoretically every county can still win Sam Maguire.
Nothing to fear for the senior teams and counteracts practically all of the arguments against counties having to play at lower tiers.
Not a bad idea but maybe bring them in sooner, perhaps at the quarter-final stage.
And maybe keep two spots open instead of one, i.e. top two in Inter and Junior play off (1st v 2nd).
That way, you still have a serious shot at getting a day out in the sun, with the realistic chance of taking a big scalp (vs. being landed into a semi-final against Dublin, Mayo or Kerry).
Just think if too many senior teams get through it completely devalues the senior championship in itself so I'd not be in favour of QF's after the individual tier championships.
so bring them in at semi final stage to have the living shite hammered out of them instead ???
You never know.....it mightn't be that bad. Whoever it is will have won a fair few championship games and should be able to give a decent account of themselves. Weaker teams regularly get the shite hammered out of the them by big teams anyway - this actually will minimise that as they won't meet under this system bar the semi finals (which should be teams on the border of senior anyway).
And players want to play against the best - that is for definite.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:56:47 PM
You never know.....it mightn't be that bad. Whoever it is will have won a fair few championship games and should be able to give a decent account of themselves. Weaker teams regularly get the shite hammered out of the them by big teams anyway - this actually will minimise that as they won't meet under this system bar the semi finals (which should be teams on the border of senior anyway).
And players want to play against the best - that is for definite.
Not having a go Seanie but it sort of sounds like the current system isn't too bad, which I agree with. Would the "lesser teams" prefer to win the second/third division championship or have a run through the current qualifers?
If your proposals were carried through at congress in the morning seanie, how would you go about structuring the top tier?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 14, 2018, 05:53:13 PM
If your proposals were carried through at congress in the morning seanie, how would you go about structuring the top tier?
Two groups of 5....4 games each. Something like that. Top two in each group go into senior semi finals. Bottom two into relegation playoff semis with eventual loser going down to intermediate.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 05:03:10 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:56:47 PM
You never know.....it mightn't be that bad. Whoever it is will have won a fair few championship games and should be able to give a decent account of themselves. Weaker teams regularly get the shite hammered out of the them by big teams anyway - this actually will minimise that as they won't meet under this system bar the semi finals (which should be teams on the border of senior anyway).
And players want to play against the best - that is for definite.
Not having a go Seanie but it sort of sounds like the current system isn't too bad, which I agree with. Would the "lesser teams" prefer to win the second/third division championship or have a run through the current qualifers?
Not sure I understand you but I think winning a lower competition in a live televised Croke Park final and then having a crack at a higher ranked team is better than a run in the qualifiers.
How often does a bottom 10 say have a "run in the Qualifiers "
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 05:03:10 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:56:47 PM
You never know.....it mightn't be that bad. Whoever it is will have won a fair few championship games and should be able to give a decent account of themselves. Weaker teams regularly get the shite hammered out of the them by big teams anyway - this actually will minimise that as they won't meet under this system bar the semi finals (which should be teams on the border of senior anyway).
And players want to play against the best - that is for definite.
Not having a go Seanie but it sort of sounds like the current system isn't too bad, which I agree with. Would the "lesser teams" prefer to win the second/third division championship or have a run through the current qualifers?
I was actually thinking the same thing after I posted about having 6 senior teams and two inter/junior teams in the quarter finals, which is probably more or less how it pans out at the moment.
Maybe it's more about the journey than the destination!
We'll still end up with the same teams at the business end of the championship, but we needn't be bored to tears in the process.
I still think the tiered system gives 'weaker' teams something tangible to play for, and that's hugely important.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 14, 2018, 04:31:56 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Three tiers equally promoted?
You must have spent a few hours in make believe land.
Whether you like it or not, a tiered system in any sport by its very nature creates a tiered profile. You cannot and should not try to pretend that the completions are equal.
There are steps the GAA can take to minimise that. Guaranteed live TV coverage for one.
What's your solution?
The media doe not create the product though.
The media's ability to market/promote/hype a product is directly related to its ability to catch public interest. If the interest is there, it can snowball. If not, it melts.
The GAA might be able to force RTE to show tier 3 games, for a tenure anyway. But when all this does is televise poorly attended events that sponsors have no interest in, which mainstream media bury their match reports for, and nobody anywhere is talking about it, then the GAA might be forced to acknowledge that equality is unsustainable.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 14, 2018, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 14, 2018, 04:31:56 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 14, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
Three tiers equally promoted and with the junior and intermediate champions getting back into the senior All-Ireland semi finals is my favoured approach. This is progress though. I'm very hopeful for this President.
Three tiers equally promoted?
You must have spent a few hours in make believe land.
Whether you like it or not, a tiered system in any sport by its very nature creates a tiered profile. You cannot and should not try to pretend that the completions are equal.
There are steps the GAA can take to minimise that. Guaranteed live TV coverage for one.
What's your solution?
The media doe not create the product though.
The media's ability to market/promote/hype a product is directly related to its ability to catch public interest. If the interest is there, it can snowball. If not, it melts.
The GAA might be able to force RTE to show tier 3 games, for a tenure anyway. But when all this does is televise poorly attended events that sponsors have no interest in, which mainstream media bury their match reports for, and nobody anywhere is talking about it, then the GAA might be forced to acknowledge that equality is unsustainable.
Or they might not. It could work out and lads in Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Wicklow, Leitrim etc might want to play football for their county and get that elusive big day in Croke Park for themselves and their supporters.
If attendances are the worry the games can be packaged with other ties to "justify" opening Croke Park. The only limitations are our imaginations. At present we've a championship that's a farce until the quarter finals and maybe even a few of them are poor. With the exception of the semi finals teams of fairly even ability should be meeting and even the semi finals will contain one team that's senior the following year.
How much media coverage did Carlow V Leitrim get last year?
(Apart from SKY Facebook thingy)
How many of the 1st and 2nd round Qualifiers get more than 2,000 paying "patrons"?
Only for the Rhubarbs were dumped out of Connacht early the last 2 years it's doubtful the first 2 Rounds would have brought more than 20,000 to the 16 games.
How about 3 groups of 4 in Senior, top 2 in each plus Junior and Inter Champions play Qtr Finals?
Seanie our only limitation is not imagination. It's population.
And I'm guessing you are seriously overestimating the number of people who would watch Liatroim v Waterford playing a D3 championship match.
I reckon the combined TV audience and stadium attendance wouldn't fill a large nightclub.
Why would RTE, or any media outlet be interested in such things?
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
So the only thing holding anyone back is money
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
Absolutely not .
Organisation is probably the key but money helps that organisation.
I would imagine the division 1 counties would also have the largest expenditure of gaa teams per annum.
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.
Teams must earn the right to play at the top table. No one is out crying asking for Oxford Utd to be let into the Champions League. The worst 20 teams must sort themselves out. Patrons want to watch the best teams, playing each other in meaningful games in the summer.
No-one wants to watch Waterford V Leitrim no matter how much money you throw at, nor how much TV coverage you give it. If these two sides were in the backyard playing most people wouldn't open the curtains. Therein is the problem. We're trying to sell games no-one cares about.
Quote from: trailer on March 14, 2018, 09:29:45 PM
Teams must earn the right to play at the top table. No one is out crying asking for Oxford Utd to be let into the Champions League. The worst 20 teams must sort themselves out. Patrons want to watch the best teams, playing each other in meaningful games in the summer.
No-one wants to watch Waterford V Leitrim no matter how much money you throw at, nor how much TV coverage you give it. If these two sides were in the backyard playing most people wouldn't open the curtains. Therein is the problem. We're trying to sell games no-one cares about.
Meaningful games....
Being honest we have had one meaningful game for the past 3 seasons
Dublin v Mayo
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.
Football is far healthier than hurling. Only a half dozen or so counties even care about hurling at this stage.
Quote from: Syferus on March 14, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.
Football is far healthier than hurling. Only a half dozen or so counties even care about hurling at this stage.
Cork, Limerick, Clare, Galway, Tipp, Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford both care and might beat each other.
Quote from: armaghniac on March 14, 2018, 09:41:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 14, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.
Football is far healthier than hurling. Only a half dozen or so counties even care about hurling at this stage.
Cork, Limerick, Clare, Galway, Tipp, Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford both care and might beat each other.
And yet no one outside those counties really cares a jot. Just look at the state of the hurling board here if you want some anecdotal evidence.
How come no County has just a single Club Championship?
Quote from: trailer on March 14, 2018, 09:29:45 PM
Teams must earn the right to play at the top table. No one is out crying asking for Oxford Utd to be let into the Champions League. The worst 20 teams must sort themselves out. Patrons want to watch the best teams, playing each other in meaningful games in the summer.
No-one wants to watch Waterford V Leitrim no matter how much money you throw at, nor how much TV coverage you give it. If these two sides were in the backyard playing most people wouldn't open the curtains. Therein is the problem. We're trying to sell games no-one cares about.
So you're basically reinforcing FermGael's point of view by saying nobody will care about a third tier in your second paragraph.
Can we just not handicap the stronger counties to bring them back into the chasing pack?
If it's the dead rubbers that are annoying everyone why don't we just give Dublin a bye to the all Ireland final and Kerry a bye to the ai semi final? Surely then every match before that would matter a lot.
The tiered hurling system has shrunk the hurling heartlands down to the zealots. Look at the Antrim apathy and tell me that a tiered structure will do anything other than capitulate the division 3 sides.
Handicap the stronger teams. Don't hide proud footballing counties like Fermanagh, Clare, Sligo, Louth, Westmeath, Antrim, Wexford, Offaly like their best efforts are something we are ashamed of.
Or we could do a simple, previously used strategy by moving Dublin out of Leinster for a few seasons. Send them to Ballybofey or Castlebar in the pissing rain in May or Killarney in June. No need to tear up 125 years of tradition and breathe new life into the Leinster championship.
We done it for galway to Leinster in the hurling, I don't see the harm in for a year or 2 taking Dublin out of Leinster.
Quote from: Syferus on March 14, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.
Football is far healthier than hurling. Only a half dozen or so counties even care about hurling at this stage.
Only decent part of the the Sunday Game before August is the hurling and the theme music
So many different views on this and people jump up and down when it isn't simply fixed.
My view on it is that you need to bring the players and spectators of the counties you'd be demoting with you. Rossfan alludes to club championships not being one-tiered and he's right, if we were starting from scratch. If we were starting from scratch we wouldn't have provincial championships either. But we're starting from where we currently are and, the last I heard, there was no appetite for this type of change.
By all means ask the question again, try to sell something along what Rossfan/Magpie Seanie are saying about letting the junior/intermediate champions back in, but I don't think for a second we can rely on the media to promote a lower-tiered championships, no matter how often some of them becry elitism in the game.
It's mainly a cultural thing that regardless of the lack of hope of success, everyone wants to see a route in front of them right through to the AI final. As someone mentioned earlier, it's the journey rather than the prize.
Quote from: trileacman on March 14, 2018, 10:33:22 PM
Or we could do a simple, previously used strategy by moving Dublin out of Leinster for a few seasons. Send them to Ballybofey or Castlebar in the pissing rain in May or Killarney in June. No need to tear up 125 years of tradition and breathe new life into the Leinster championship.
We done it for galway to Leinster in the hurling, I don't see the harm in for a year or 2 taking Dublin out of Leinster.
I love how so many people on this forum think that Dublin would have a hard time dealing with rain and/or wind.
That said, not a bad suggestion. I'd say a lot of Dublin people would be in favour of it.
It's obvious from this thread alone that we're not quite agreed/clear on what the problem that a tiered championship (or the super 8s for that matter) is trying to solve. Until we know what the problem is, it's impossible to assess the merits of any proposed solution.
Quote from: armaghniac on March 14, 2018, 09:41:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 14, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.
Football is far healthier than hurling. Only a half dozen or so counties even care about hurling at this stage.
Cork, Limerick, Clare, Galway, Tipp, Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford both care and might beat each other.
We most certainly care. Just a pity that as soon as we're getting our shit together that there's a strong chance of relegation to tier two. Unless of course we beat one of Galway, Kilkenny, Wexford or Dublin. I give us a chance, it's a pity that there's no promotion relegation playoff for Leinster. It appears that no one would give a shit if we're relegated, yet the Munster counties have a cushion, making Kerry's chances of participating in the top tier almost impossible.
I apologise for cursing/swearing. I'm just passionate about my county, and the system is BULLSHIT.
When I hear of moving Counties to other Provinces (in football not that other stuff) or making 4 Artificial 8 team "regions" I know it's time to go Senior/Inter/Junior.
Quote from: macdanger2 on March 15, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
It's obvious from this thread alone that we're not quite agreed/clear on what the problem that a tiered championship (or the super 8s for that matter) is trying to solve. Until we know what the problem is, it's impossible to assess the merits of any proposed solution.
The problem that people are trying to solve is to make the county game more equal. But to be honest they're clean mad. 32 counties of disparate populations and football cultures are never going to find an even keel, and trying to force an "equal status" on Fermanagh because that's what Sligo want, really isn't fair either.
The problem that people
should be trying to solve is the length of the county season. Asking players to commit for 7 months for 9 games is the real issue. Continually trying to prop up the lower echelons of county ball, when those same players could be enjoying club football, is the real issue.
So do we abolish the weaker County teams?
Or just let them have 1 knock out game in the year?
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 09:20:59 AM
So do we abolish the weaker County teams?
Or just let them have 1 knock out game in the year?
No, we truncate the season for all county teams, mainly by running off the provincial championships in 4 weeks of May. So the players of all counties (but mostly beneficial for smaller counties) aren't dragging their county seasons out unnecessarily. They can return to their clubs and enjoy competitive football for the rest of the summer.
I firmly believe that the pecking order in terms of gravitas for a footballer should be 1. County championship, 2. Club championship. We don't need a ball of shite competition trying to find its way beneath those two competitions.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 09:18:38 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on March 15, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
It's obvious from this thread alone that we're not quite agreed/clear on what the problem that a tiered championship (or the super 8s for that matter) is trying to solve. Until we know what the problem is, it's impossible to assess the merits of any proposed solution.
The problem that people are trying to solve is to make the county game more equal. But to be honest they're clean mad. 32 counties of disparate populations and football cultures are never going to find an even keel, and trying to force an "equal status" on Fermanagh because that's what Sligo want, really isn't fair either.
The problem that people should be trying to solve is the length of the county season. Asking players to commit for 7 months for 9 games is the real issue. Continually trying to prop up the lower echelons of county ball, when those same players could be enjoying club football, is the real issue.
Where do you get the seven months and nine games from? A team that plays nine games (seven league and two championship games) will play two months of league football and (I think) will have played their two championship games in a month.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 09:18:38 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on March 15, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
It's obvious from this thread alone that we're not quite agreed/clear on what the problem that a tiered championship (or the super 8s for that matter) is trying to solve. Until we know what the problem is, it's impossible to assess the merits of any proposed solution.
The problem that people are trying to solve is to make the county game more equal. But to be honest they're clean mad. 32 counties of disparate populations and football cultures are never going to find an even keel, and trying to force an "equal status" on Fermanagh because that's what Sligo want, really isn't fair either.
The problem that people should be trying to solve is the length of the county season. Asking players to commit for 7 months for 9 games is the real issue. Continually trying to prop up the lower echelons of county ball, when those same players could be enjoying club football, is the real issue.
Where do you get the seven months and nine games from? A team that plays nine games (seven league and two championship games) will play two months of league football and (I think) will have played their two championship games in a month.
R1 of the qualifiers is 9th June. The latest any county team would have been back in training is first week of January. So apologies, 6 months and 9 games.
Put all 32 counties into 8 groups of 4.
Top 2 in each go forward into 4 groups of 4 in the senior championship.
Bottom 2 in each group who then go into a intermediate championship where their are 4 groups of 4.
Teams play each other once; Home, away & neutral venue in each group game.
All counties guaranteed 6 group games with 3 at 1st stage then another 3 at 2nd stage.
Winners of intermediate championship get a play off to qualify for the 1/4 final with the worst performing 2nd team in Senior championship group.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 09:55:11 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 09:18:38 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on March 15, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
It's obvious from this thread alone that we're not quite agreed/clear on what the problem that a tiered championship (or the super 8s for that matter) is trying to solve. Until we know what the problem is, it's impossible to assess the merits of any proposed solution.
The problem that people are trying to solve is to make the county game more equal. But to be honest they're clean mad. 32 counties of disparate populations and football cultures are never going to find an even keel, and trying to force an "equal status" on Fermanagh because that's what Sligo want, really isn't fair either.
The problem that people should be trying to solve is the length of the county season. Asking players to commit for 7 months for 9 games is the real issue. Continually trying to prop up the lower echelons of county ball, when those same players could be enjoying club football, is the real issue.
Where do you get the seven months and nine games from? A team that plays nine games (seven league and two championship games) will play two months of league football and (I think) will have played their two championship games in a month.
R1 of the qualifiers is 9th June. The latest any county team would have been back in training is first week of January. So apologies, 6 months and 9 games.
Ah right, I thought you meant game time only. But if you're starting from when they begin training, you should include the January tournaments and the club games they'll be playing in April, no?
Quote from: Maroon Manc on March 15, 2018, 10:01:40 AM
Put all 32 counties into 8 groups of 4.
Top 2 in each go forward into 4 groups of 4 in the senior championship.
Bottom 2 in each group who then go into a intermediate championship where their are 4 groups of 4.
Teams play each other once; Home, away & neutral venue in each group game.
All counties guaranteed 6 group games with 3 at 1st stage then another 3 at 2nd stage.
Winners of intermediate championship get a play off to qualify for the 1/4 final with the worst performing 2nd team in Senior championship group.
Put all 32 counties into 8 groups of 4. If you don't seed this then the knockout stages become a joke. If you do seed it then the group stages become a joke.
Top 2 in each go forward into 4 groups of 4 in the senior championship.If there's one thing we can learn from the Champions League, it's that a second group stage is a stay of execution, and does nothing but heighten boredom.
Bottom 2 in each group who then go into a intermediate championship where their are 4 groups of 4.Oh great, our clubs will be delighted that their county-standard players are now missing for a further 3 weeks, to play in a competition they've no interest in winning. Our county board treasurer is delighted too... another month of £15k a week costs to run a senior county team, except now, what's left of our panel is competing in a competition they don't want to win.
All counties guaranteed 6 group games with 3 at 1st stage then another 3 at 2nd stage.There's nothing quite like a series of mismatches and dead rubbers with half-interested players, to get excited about.
Winners of intermediate championship get a play off to qualify for the 1/4 final with the worst performing 2nd team in Senior championship group.Woopee, a county that previously shown this season that they're not good enough to win an AI, gets a bonus opportunity to prove it all again.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 10:12:58 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 09:55:11 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 09:18:38 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on March 15, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
It's obvious from this thread alone that we're not quite agreed/clear on what the problem that a tiered championship (or the super 8s for that matter) is trying to solve. Until we know what the problem is, it's impossible to assess the merits of any proposed solution.
The problem that people are trying to solve is to make the county game more equal. But to be honest they're clean mad. 32 counties of disparate populations and football cultures are never going to find an even keel, and trying to force an "equal status" on Fermanagh because that's what Sligo want, really isn't fair either.
The problem that people should be trying to solve is the length of the county season. Asking players to commit for 7 months for 9 games is the real issue. Continually trying to prop up the lower echelons of county ball, when those same players could be enjoying club football, is the real issue.
Where do you get the seven months and nine games from? A team that plays nine games (seven league and two championship games) will play two months of league football and (I think) will have played their two championship games in a month.
R1 of the qualifiers is 9th June. The latest any county team would have been back in training is first week of January. So apologies, 6 months and 9 games.
Ah right, I thought you meant game time only. But if you're starting from when they begin training, you should include the January tournaments and the club games they'll be playing in April, no?
Probably should. Though these are more friendlies than competitive matches.
Quote from: Syferus on March 14, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: longballin on March 14, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: FermGael on March 14, 2018, 08:39:30 PM
You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube before the top 8 teams really started playing.
Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.
If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.
WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... :o
We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.
untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.
Football is far healthier than hurling. Only a half dozen or so counties even care about hurling at this stage.
There are 8 serious hurling counties capable of competing -Cork, Tipp, KK, Galway, Clare, Deise, Limerick, Wexford
There are less than 8 serious football counties capable of competing at the moment - Down, Armagh, Derry, Meath, Offaly and Kildare are all in the dumps
Football is a mess.
Here goes. Football only for now. I've listed the problems as I think many people see them. Then the proposed solution. The Pros counteract the problems as I see them. Then I've listed the Cons which finally I respond to.
Problems:
1. Intercounty season is too long and has a detrimental impact on clubs and club players who make up the vast majority of players in the GAA.
2. No realistic hope of 90% of entrants in the All-Ireland football championship winning the competition.
3. Provincial championships unequal (easier path to AIQF's for Connacht/Munster counties) and again offer most counties little chance of winning something.*
4. Weaker teams can get drawn against strong teams in provincial or qualifier games which result in mismatches which are no good for either party.
5. Very few if any meaningful matches in football championship from May to August. (Note: meaningful - means competitive between teams of even or close to even ability and with the result having an importance).
Proposed solution: Tiered Championship as mentioned above.
Pros:
1. Can be scheduled in a shorter time frame. Truncate intercounty season.
2. Doesn't increase the number of teams who can win the All-Ireland, certainly not initially.
3. Removes unequal path to All Ireland later stages. All counties would have reasonable aspirations to win at their level. Provincial championships can be retained and run off concurrently if felt necessary.
4. Few if any mismatches.
5. Virtually all games will be meaningful. Losing any particular game could derail your entire season.
Cons:
A. Opposition to a tiered football championship has been registered by players.
B. Counties "demoted" to lower tiers as opposed to all starting at same level currently.
C. Potential lack of media interest in lower tiers.
D. Break with tradition especially removal of provincial championships either totally or as a pathway to All-Ireland.
E. Speculation that better teams will just become better and the elite will move further and further ahead.
Response to Cons:
A. I believe that opposition is largely due to the poor efforts at introducing the Tommy Murphy Cup and the tiered championships in hurling. Tommy Murphy Cup was a losers competition. Hurling championships are very different as there is a vast chasm in terms of ability between top tier and even second tier. I believe a proposal such as the one we're talking about would meet with a favourable response from players.
B. Pathway back into All-Ireland semi finals means the demotion can be short circuited by winning games. Also, promotion/relegation must exist between tiers to reward improvement/penalise poor performance.
C. This is beyond control of GAA but I'd guess the coverage of Carlow v. Wicklow in tier 3 now wouldn't be less than the same game in the Leinster Championship. GAA should insist on live coverage of finals of each tier (like rugby do with womens and U20) which would be an improvement for most of the weaker counties....being on TV in a meaningful game rather than the occasional appearance as canon fodder.
D. Difficult for many to accept but I'd argue that this system has been outgrown. Potential to retain provincial championships as standalone competitions if the desire is there.
E. Certainly I don't feel this system would worsen the situation in this regard and might even improve it. It's a concern that won't be addressed by championship structures in my opinion.
A. I believe that opposition is largely due to the poor efforts at introducing the Tommy Murphy Cup and the tiered championships in hurling. Tommy Murphy Cup was a losers competition. Hurling championships are very different as there is a vast chasm in terms of ability between top tier and even second tier. I believe a proposal such as the one we're talking about would meet with a favourable response from players.
But there's no evidence of a favourable response. I've yet to hear of a single county player from a "lower 16" county in favour of a tiered Championship.
If this was a business plan you'd be required to benchmark - and the strategy you're recommending is very similar to that which was applied in hurling. Which has done almost nothing for the sport apart from a) increase the chasm, b) force county boards in lower counties to continue spending heavily to support teams which have little to no public following, and c) increase the likelihood of the major 8 counties going semi-pro.
This is beyond control of GAA but I'd guess the coverage of Carlow v. Wicklow in tier 3 now wouldn't be less than the same game in the Leinster Championship. GAA should insist on live coverage of finals of each tier (like rugby do with womens and U20) which would be an improvement for most of the weaker counties....being on TV in a meaningful game rather than the occasional appearance as canon fodder.
You are comparing apples and pears. Public broadcasters have a public service remit which includes televising minority sports. Women's rugby is a minority sport. Rugby has been very clever to play to this remit. Gaelic Football cannot argue on any level that forcing D3 games to be televised is helping broadcasters fulfil that remit.
E. Certainly I don't feel this system would worsen the situation in this regard and might even improve it. It's a concern that won't be addressed by championship structures in my opinion.
What you're trying to achieve here (give smaller counties more suitable football, and an opportunity to improve year-on-year, would be much more practical to implement through higher-profile national league. Merging the concepts of league and championship football, imho, muddies both, and produces a weaker end product.
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.
The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?
Yeah, those guys who for some reason rejected a motion that would make their votes transparent.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?
How many players attend Club AGMs?
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:22:46 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?
How many players attend Club AGMs?
As many as want to. Such decisions are most likely taken at a monthly meeting though.
I find it a bit strange that there's a need for the CPA to exist when so few players go through the club route if they have grievances.
What percentage of players want to go to Club AGMS?
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 11:13:53 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.
The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?
They weren't brought in to generate revenue per se. They were brought in to address the problem that counties were training for 6 months for 1 match. Its biggest failing is that it (unnecessarily) elongated the span of the county season, and has made the issue of county player availability more prominent across Ireland.
The solution was, is and always has been to raise the profile of the league, and give smaller counties a platform to incrementally improve.
The league as a competition has improved over the past 15 years. But it's still such a poor cousin.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 12:02:26 PM
What percentage of players want to go to Club AGMS?
A much smaller percentage than that of players who complain endlessly about being shafted by county boards.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:04:42 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 11:13:53 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.
The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?
They weren't brought in to generate revenue per se. They were brought in to address the problem that counties were training for 6 months for 1 match. Its biggest failing is that it (unnecessarily) elongated the span of the county season, and has made the issue of county player availability more prominent across Ireland.
The solution was, is and always has been to raise the profile of the league, and give smaller counties a platform to incrementally improve.
The league as a competition has improved over the past 15 years. But it's still such a poor cousin.
Wobbler, I think that was the 'public' reason. I think the real reason was the one I gave. As it happens, I agree 100% with you about the league.
But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:08:36 PM
But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters.
I wouldn't agree it's a win for the players, or not all of them at least.
It has removed the do or die element from championship, which has led to this 'The Championship Doesn't Start until August' stuff.
It has prolonged the season needlessly for a large percentage of teams.
It has negated the effects of the shock result in the provincials.
As far as I can see, the main beneficiaries are the big boys. Now you have to beat them twice to kill them off. Imagine if Tipperary or Cork beat Kerry in Munster. They should be gone, not stroll into a Super 8 via the back door.
I understand the awful finality of a bad day at the office for a competing team, but to me that was always part of the thrill of championship.
In saying that, I do recognise the value it has had for teams like Tipperary in their development. It's not all bad, but a stronger league with a knockout championship would suit me fine.
The league is a tremendous competition (football and hurling). The time of year is the major factor that makes it inferior to the championship in my opinion.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 15, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
The league is a tremendous competition (football and hurling). The time of year is the major factor that makes it inferior to the championship in my opinion.
I agree.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.
I'll clarify. In my initial post I stated this incorrectly. Junior champions should enter a playoff with Intermediate runners up for a semi final spot (effectively a quarter final).
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:08:36 PM
But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters.
I wouldn't agree it's a win for the players, or not all of them at least.
It has removed the do or die element from championship, which has led to this 'The Championship Doesn't Start until August' stuff.
It has prolonged the season needlessly for a large percentage of teams.
It has negated the effects of the shock result in the provincials.
As far as I can see, the main beneficiaries are the big boys. Now you have to beat them twice to kill them off. Imagine if Tipperary or Cork beat Kerry in Munster. They should be gone, not stroll into a Super 8 via the back door.
I understand the awful finality of a bad day at the office for a competing team, but to me that was always part of the thrill of championship.
In saying that, I do recognise the value it has had for teams like Tipperary in their development. It's not all bad, but a stronger league with a knockout championship would suit me fine.
How do you make the league stronger though?
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League. Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 11:13:53 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.
The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?
I would say the qualifiers were initially a success when they were introduced way back in 2001. People were sick to death of usual shite and maybe watching one competitive game every two weeks.
Problem is that over the past five years or so divergence between top 10 or 12 and the rest has increased immeasurably. After twenty years of it nothing wrong with tweaking it again.
There is no quick solution, it truly could take five years or more.
As I mentioned on Page 1, if GAA are serious about attempting to close the gap, they will need to come out with a plan alongside new system to pour funds into counties that initially do not end up in top tier(s).
Unfortunately, the elephant in the room is money. Do you really think a "career manager" (maybe a bit unfair), currently managing a division 3 or 4 team, will come out and support a system that may cut the available funds to properly train a count team by a third or in half, because those teams initially may not be playing for Sam ? .
I think the starting point should be to accept that there is no perfect structure that will please everyone.
You could come up with an amazing solution to the existing problems with the inter-county structure, but how will that affect the clubs?
We have too many moving parts.
Too many people playing for too many teams.
The optimal solution will require compromise.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League. Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.
And extend the players unavailability to the clubs? And those who propose letting junior champions into senior semis/quarters, does that not defeat the tiered approach? To re-insert Rossfan's club championship argument, how many counties allow junior teams a pathway to win senior championships?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 15, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League. Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.
And extend the players unavailability to the clubs? And those who propose letting junior champions into senior semis/quarters, does that not defeat the tiered approach? To re-insert Rossfan's club championship argument, how many counties allow junior teams a pathway to win senior championships?
why would it extend the unavailability? They are unavailable for the duration of the league as it is, and before the championship starts, and while they wait for a qualifier exit. If the competitions ran side by side, you wouldn't be without them that much longer.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 11:20:39 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?
Yeah, those guys who for some reason rejected a motion that would make their votes transparent.
Exactly those guys. Now all club players should demand answers. Or rather, they should have attended the meetings before congress to inform themselves as to what way their club rep was going to vote.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on March 15, 2018, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:08:36 PM
But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters.
I wouldn't agree it's a win for the players, or not all of them at least.
It has removed the do or die element from championship, which has led to this 'The Championship Doesn't Start until August' stuff.
It has prolonged the season needlessly for a large percentage of teams.
It has negated the effects of the shock result in the provincials.
As far as I can see, the main beneficiaries are the big boys. Now you have to beat them twice to kill them off. Imagine if Tipperary or Cork beat Kerry in Munster. They should be gone, not stroll into a Super 8 via the back door.
I understand the awful finality of a bad day at the office for a competing team, but to me that was always part of the thrill of championship.
In saying that, I do recognise the value it has had for teams like Tipperary in their development. It's not all bad, but a stronger league with a knockout championship would suit me fine.
How do you make the league stronger though?
I think it actually has become a lot stronger in recent years.
It's taken very seriously now.
Genuine fans know it's probably the best football they'll see all year.
As Seanie said, if you take that format and stick it in the middle of summer, there would be massive levels of interest, across all divisions.
People are actively looking for things to do when the weather is good, particularly events where they can bring the whole family along.
Regular home games would do an awful lot to get kids interested and develop that sense of connection.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 15, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League. Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.
And extend the players unavailability to the clubs? And those who propose letting junior champions into senior semis/quarters, does that not defeat the tiered approach? To re-insert Rossfan's club championship argument, how many counties allow junior teams a pathway to win senior championships?
I'd argue that this is different and that's what a new solution is warranted but if I'm not wrong....junior, intermediate and senior clubs play in the divisional senior championships in Kerry...isn't that right?
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 15, 2018, 12:45:32 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 15, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League. Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.
And extend the players unavailability to the clubs? And those who propose letting junior champions into senior semis/quarters, does that not defeat the tiered approach? To re-insert Rossfan's club championship argument, how many counties allow junior teams a pathway to win senior championships?
I'd argue that this is different and that's what a new solution is warranted but if I'm not wrong....junior, intermediate and senior clubs play in the divisional senior championships in Kerry...isn't that right?
they do Seanie, but the Divisional 'senior' championship is a completely different tournament to the County Championship. What you are proposing is the equivalent of say Dromid Pearses (win Junior) play off against Intermediate club for a spot in the County Senior Semi final.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League. Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.
I agree, I've suggested before their played concurrently.
I do like blowing my own trumpet; but a few years on and this still makes a better attempt at solving problems than anything I've seen:
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
Ok chaps -
Play the NFL March to June with Provincial Championships interspersed.
17 weekends to play 11 rounds of games.
Club Leagues can be held during those months with opt in or opt out games for County players as decided by Co Boards.
No League Finals - Top team win the Division.
Instead of calling it the NFL restyle it as Div 1 Championship etc.
Limit the AI to the 4 Provincial Champions and the top 2 teams in each Division of the League.
Also, eliminate all pre-season competitions.
The likes of Martin Breheny & Co., i.e. vested interests in the media, are always going on about the GAA surrendering the Autumn/Winter period to soccer and rugby coverage.
Load of nonsense.
Late Spring and Summer is when everyone should be playing the bulk of their football.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?
Yes indeed. And Santa Claus was chairing the county board meeting and all.
Quote from: Owenmoresider on March 15, 2018, 02:27:51 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?
Yes indeed. And Santa Claus was chairing the county board meeting and all.
And therein lies the problem. Why not test out the theory of it how it works rather than mock it from afar? The answer is, because it's easier.
Is Esmarelda a biteen innocent? ?
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 04:47:19 PM
Is Esmarelda a biteen innocent? ?
I thought you were better than that Rossfan. :-[
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 01:20:27 PM
Ok chaps -
Play the NFL March to June with Provincial Championships interspersed.
17 weekends to play 11 rounds of games.
Club Leagues can be held during those months with opt in or opt out games for County players as decided by Co Boards.
No League Finals - Top team win the Division.
Instead of calling it the NFL restyle it as Div 1 Championship etc.
Limit the AI to the 4 Provincial Champions and the top 2 teams in each Division of the League.
The most ridiculous suggestion I've seen to date, looks like you've looked at the past 2 years and thought how can I devise a championship that doesn't involve Mayo. ;D
Running the league and championship concurrently is something to consider.
If the league was played in the summer with good weather attendances would rocket.
The big issues for me are that too much is demanded of county players and clubs are still getting a raw deal.
Corporate Park cannot continue to increase the size of the inter championship and say they are pro club. Impossible.
Two tier championships are a non runner for the ones excluded - heresy!
Look at the coverage and interest in the Rackard Cup, Lory Meagher Cup and to a lesser extent the Christy Ring Cup. Teams are virtually ignored and the games don't come on the radar Do we want that in football where we do in fact have a much more balanced competition...... yeah I know what you are thinking... but take out the top 4 and the rest aren't that far apart on any given day.
For all the criticism they get, the provincial championships matter - 4 serious titles to be won and the provincial councils are much more in touch with grassroots than Corporate Park.
If we are serious about the importance of the club there is only one solution - reduce the number fo inter county games and so reduce the length of that season.
Return to knockout championship - when the top 4 are beaten they beaten and give hope back to everyone else!
Run the league alongside the championship, market it properly and you will increase attendances to negate the loss of income from the reduction on qualifier games etc.....
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 01:15:24 PM
I do like blowing my own trumpet; but a few years on and this still makes a better attempt at solving problems than anything I've seen:
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
Correct. The best idea I have seen, and I suspect the best I will see.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on March 15, 2018, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 01:15:24 PM
I do like blowing my own trumpet; but a few years on and this still makes a better attempt at solving problems than anything I've seen:
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
Correct. The best idea I have seen, and I suspect the best I will see.
Yeah it's good.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 01:15:24 PM
I do like blowing my own trumpet; but a few years on and this still makes a better attempt at solving problems than anything I've seen:
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
A rare moment of brilliance.
I see five competing forces in the debate here.
1: Coporate GAA. Wants to sideline the clubs and shite counties to maximise revenue from the high profile teams.
2: Clubs. Want to abolish the intercounty season so Jimmy the chain-smoking corner-back has a former county man to drag him to a county final win.
3: County players/managers. Want to play/manage at inter-county level.
4: Media. Wants more high profile matches so they can further their own interests/exposure/agenda, similar to corporate GAA in that they wield an inordinate amount of influence on the debate.
And 5......?????
The Dubs.