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Take what you like out of the whole post is it? Nice work my laddy!

"We are Rovers" go look it up and read it kid, then come back with your straight facts!

What's that supposed to mean, you were asked a question and you said they deserved a government funded stadium because they were a successful team. Is that your position? I can only presume that "We are Rovers" is a book, might I suggest to you that you check out more than one view before deciding on what the truth is. By it's title I'd say the book is very much a SR favoured view.

Well first off they are the most successful Football club in the whole of this island

Well that is reason enough for the government to pay for the stadium. Well on that basis I presume many of the country's other successful sports teams can look forward to this government largesse in the not too distant future.

They were unfairly thrown out of Milltown

I seem to remember the owners of Miltown bemoaning the fact that if all the people who protested about the sale of Miltown actually went to the ground for matches then they wouldn't have to sell it.

No i most certainly am not taking the piss kid...

Oh right, sorry I just thought you were doing an impression of what a GAA man might consider the typical LOI supporter to be. What with the poor spelling (fiernace) and the unnecessary abuse of some fictional rural GAA club (They deserve way more than some ***** little GAA club out in the middle of nowhere). But it seems you were serious, if you want to discuss the issues or find out why some GAA people object to this situation then you are more than welcome but it seems from your first post that you only posted to get a reaction.

I know your taking the piss, right?

Lynchbhoy, I like every other pro-grant poster (from what I can gather) on this site is against the GAA going professional. You claim these improvements are just a natural progression and to a degree you're right but the fact that players organised themselves and put pressure on the GAA quickened the process. More importantly many of the improvements that occurred at inter-county level found their way down to club level also.
                    Again lets not get off point here and argue about little issues, the point I'm making is that there is no reason to feel that these grants are the thin edge of any wedge. What IC players have got is IMO fair and others would agree, the expenses that players get may be over and above what they actually spend but again most won't lose sleep over that. However if there is a clear indication that certain people are trying to force the GAA down the road of professionalism then they would find themselves on the outside looking in.
                               Maybe the majority of GAA people are against this grant but a significant minority are in favour of it IMO. But the general feeling amongst GAA people that I know is one of indifference. That wouldn't be the case if we were talking about the GAA paying this money. So I can't see how anyone thinks this will lead to the ruination of the GAA and no-one who says it will, can explain to the rest of us how.

I'm afraid I have to go now hhnb but you'll notice that I said most 'anti-gpa' posters were claiming to speak on behalf of the grassroots and all of them arte talking about some future doomsday dcenario that will definately come to pass if these grants are accepted. As an anti-grant man you never once (that I can recall) questioned the validity of any of these claims based on factual proof. Yet when I post something which I subsequently qualify you claim I'm pulling facts out of my ass. So if you didn't claim to talk on behalf of the grassroots or use the thin edge of the wedge argument yourself you certainly supported those who did, and both those views are as factually unsupportable as what you pulled me up on.

Well apparently the Mayo board have met since their public rejection of the grants and the issue wasn't even raised (not an indication that they are bristling with indignation). There is no evidence either way to conclusively prove what the majority of GAA supporters think. But from people I speak to on the ground, it either doesn't interest them much or they are ok with it. Those who are vehemently opposed to this are making themselves heard the loudest, but that is always the way, as usual there is a silent majority out there. And I'd wager most of them just want to get on with playing side of it, they aren't too bothered whether the players get this grant or not.
                            But I don't think we should get into a debate about a side issue especially one with no conclusion. The main point of my post was that we have nothing to fear from these grants and that this isn't the thin edge of anything, well not unless we as an organisation democratically vote for it.

Well apparently the Mayo board have met since their public rejection of the grants and the issue wasn't even raised (not an indication that they are bristling with indignation). There is no evidence either way to conclusively prove what the majority of GAA supporters think. But from people I speak to on the ground, it either doesn't interest them much or they are ok with it. Those who are vehemently opposed to this are making themselves heard the loudest, but that is always the way, as usual there is a silent majority out there. And I'd wager most of them just want to get on with playing side of it, they aren't too bothered whether the players get this grant or not.
                            But I don't think we should get into a debate about a side issue especially one with no conclusion. The main point of my post was that we have nothing to fear from these grants and that this isn't the thin edge of anything, well not unless we as an organisation democratically vote for it.

So stop whinging that there is no precedent or indication of direction...you are wrong !

Bullshit, plain and simple. I remember having a class debate in school about whether the GAA should go professional or not, that was at least 15 years ago. I'm sure some people spoke about the possibility before that and I'm sure people will talk about 15, 50, 150 years from now.
                When I played minor football I got a hamstring injury and the club didn't want to pay for the physio treatment, now the minor team have a physio present at any championship match and any club player who needs treatment gets it without any question. So of course things change and move on and yes things will change in the future BUT PROFESSIONALISM, WHERE GAA PLAYERS GET PAID BY THE GAA FOR PLAYING GAA CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF THE DEMOCRATIC WILL OF THE ORGAINISATION SUPPORTS IT.
                 The majority of changes that have come about for players in the last 15 years or so have been for the better. The world is constantly changing and there has often been conflict in many walks of life to secure the rights of various groups. When workers started orgainising themselves and demanding better working conditions, they didn't continue agitating after reasonable working conditions were granted did they? If the GAA work with players meet reasonable demands then there is no reason why players will continue to look for more.

Jesus are we back to pulling facts from our arses again. Where did you get that from?

There have been no polls to find this out so its purely opinion and the truth is neither side know the proportions of members who support them, so lets stop trotting out what you want to believe as truth.

I just saw this after I had written most of the above so you'll see I agree with you that we don't really know, but you are one to talk about pulling things from your arse, most of the anti-grants post have been based on how they are talking for the majority of the grassroots and about what is definately going to happen in the future. When I ask people to lay out how professionalism is going to come to pass only tram can even offer an opinion. Talk about pulling facts from your arse.

Well I think any organisation needs to feel that they have both support and a justifiable cause before they can consider striking. Despite what some on here might say, a large proportion of the GAA community either supported or were indifferent to the grants proposal. The vast majority of GAA people are vehemently opposed to professionalism and I think this is true of many IC players also (your friend being an example). So if some, at least, IC players are against professionalism and 99% of the membership are, what leverage do the GPA have to force it through? If some players went on strike on the grounds of professionalism they would be ignored and counties would field without them, most of them wouldn't be long coming back I'm sure. Remember these guys have to live amongst the rest of us and the GAA has been central to their lives, they wouldn't risk losing that over an issue they can't win.

Well that's fair enough, I argued(as did many others) that TD had a case and it should be heard. Now they've lost, so for TD and all other interested parties it is time to move on. I've no real interest in SR but I hope that they and all the GAA clubs in that area can successfully co-exist. I'm sure the population is big enough for them all to get what they need.

Bingobus, this is just the thin edge of the wedge argument again and as DFS points out the GPA have agreed that the GAA have no responsibility to pay the money if the govt. stop doing so. This is publicly stated and in writing so I can't see where the GPA can argue otherwise. Besides a rule change would definitely be required if the GAA were to pay players out of there own pockets. And this would require a vote and I think it is abundantly clear that if this were to happen what the result would be.

Well RadioGAAGAA maybe you something I don't, I hope you are wrong about this. But if you are right I'll be the first to acknowledge it.

RadioGAAGAA do you not have any appreciation of how different a grant from the government is and the GAA themselves paying players to play.
I'll give you a quick illustration, if we are next door neighbours but don't know one another very well, and you call to my house looking for a pint of milk, I'd give it to you without any problem. If you called to my house the following day looking for a €10,000 loan I'd refuse. Using your logic the fact that I gave you a pint of milk(the grant) should also mean I'd give you the €10,000 (professionalism). Can you not see that the GAA can support the govt. giving players grants while at the same time know that they'll never pay players themselves. And please don't start on that 'we are paying them already craic', that is just your opinion, not fact.
Dessie Farrell, Nickey Brennan or anyone else can't bring professionalism to the GAA, it's only when people like you, me and other grassroots members decide that we want professionalism can it happen.

I agree tram but I don't think it is either likely or at least anymore so because of the grants. Like I say not only would you need a group of businessmen willing and able to fund it but all the players would need to be on board and what is a good deal for one lad could be a bad one for another.  Some posters keep saying this (the grant) is the thin edge of the wedge but a proper professional structure in the GAA needs the support of the vast majority of the membership and that isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future.
                   You can certainly question whether IC players deserve the grant as opposed to club players or other athletes. And I'd agree that the GPA have come across poorly during this debate but the principle of amateurism or the thin edge of the wedge are not sustainable arguments against this grant.    

They will get increases through the same way as they got the grants. "Don't pay us more, we don't play."

So you think that anytime the GPA want something they can just stamp their feet and the GAA will fold. It is your position that professionalism will come about by the GPA threathening to strike. And you called me niave.

Ok Tram this is how you proposed that professionalism could come into the GAA

I would say the main fear is that a foothold to professionalism has already been obtained regardless of the source of funds. I asked the €25,000 question because I would say quite a few players could live solely each year on such a payment without much extravagance, maybe not in some places but certainly in plenty of others, while the rest would in effect be semi-pro in all but name, working on a day job on something else and not necessarily full time. From reading between the lines, am I right in saying that you would still regard players receiving this sum of money (€25,000 p.a.) as amateur, and not requiring an amendment to Rule 11? If so, it's one that for me is hard to fathom because as I've already said many players could live on such a sum alone. You then effectively get a state subsidised pro-sports platform which still defines itself as amateur. And pro-sports don't have to be wallowing in megabucks like the English Premier soccer league, many pro sports bodies see its competitors play on small wages.

Now while the above situation is unlikely, another one is where claims of hypocrisy is laid and is more plausible. A wealthy businessman, or a number of them bunched together, may decide to offer say a panel of 20-24 players  €15,000 each plus bonuses & perks e.g. mortgage paid each month, on progression in the championship on the condition of (a) giving up all other full-time work and (b) not playing football for their club or at the very least the bare minimum they have to e.g. championship games only. This would be in addition of doing promotional work for said business' e.g. in adverts. In other words, live the life of a full time pro athlete. Now this money doesn't directly involve the GAA or even its county boards, but is paid direct to the players involved. This to me in terms of ethos lies in a similar fashion with the grants deal struck, only amplified a lot more and doesn't involve the government but private business concerns. Does the rule of amateurism still realistically count? To me its as good as dissolved without having to touch the Official Guide. I'm sure the counter-claim will be that managers are already getting this and have been for years. I've already explained myself on this and I don't intend repeating it, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Now I think we agree that the Govt. are not going to pay GAA players anything like €25000, so we'll move onto the next possibility. A consortium of business people coming together is a possibility, but that doesn't make the GAA a professional sport. As it stands now or at any time in the past a group of individuals could have come together to fund a full-time county panel, but it's never happened, and I can't see it being anymore likely because of the grant.
                               I said your suggestion was unrealistic and I stand by that, first off any player would need a living wage which is at least €25,000, for guys with families even that sum may not be enough. But at 25K by 25 players that's over 600K, not small money for any consortium to pay especially when the panel will play for free anyway. Or what about players who are doctors, physios, farmers, business owners etc. are they going to take career breaks for €25000 (approx.) per year. I don't see too many players accepting that they can't play for their clubs take career breaks based on the loose arrangement of a group of businessmen paying them basic money for an in determined amount of time.
                Also tram neither of your two suggestions are based on the GAA paying players out of their own funds or players all across the country becoming full time professionals. We can argue all night about whether a particular group of businessmen would pay players in a particular county but I think you'd accept that 32 counties wouldn't secure such largesse from local businessmen. Or any county would get it on a consistent basis.