Poll
Question:
Should Leo Stand down
Option 1: Yay
votes: 30
Option 2: Nay
votes: 10
With investigated upgraded should Leo temporarily stand down?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/gardai-gp-contract-leak-leo-varadkar-5381075-Mar2021/%3famp=1
https://mobile.twitter.com/BowesChay/status/1371043586901483524
I think what is in your second post is the real story here. That politicians leak stuff is well known, albeit Leo got caught red-handed and is now trying to brazen it out. But the fact that he was caught red-handed, information given to major news outlets and they refused to run the story. Well you know that is North Korea stuff.
In answer to the question, he should at a minimum step aside (if this were in a workplace it would be suspended with pay) until the investigation is complete.
Can you imagine what the uproar would be if Mary Lou McDonald were suspected of leaking something - it would be wall to wall coverage.
It's the way of the Political world these days, they all think they're above & beyond the law. Most of the time they are too.
Varadkar should step aside in the exact same way Gerry Adams did when he was under investigation by the PSNI
Oh wait... ;D
He should resign.
His offence is a clear breach of the law, the fairytale spun by his colleagues in govt is pure fantasy stuff. He committed these offences in his position as head of the state to help out his friend, it is cronyism and abuse of power in his position, it is also a clear breach of the law and he hasn't denied doing it - all he has if put forward a fairytale defence. As head of state we are to believe that he clandestinely leaked a confidential document to his friend for the good of the nation without bothering to tell the Minister for health or anyone else in government? It's risible stuff.
As Itchy said though, the biggest story is the how the media have tried to bury this story from Day 1. That is the major scandal here.
As for anyone who doesn't think he should step aside, neo-liberal right wing politics are a blight on the 26 and that is everything Varadkar stands for.
Varadkar's mistake is that he wasn't involved in the murder of an innocent woman, didn't order a human bomb, didn't cover up his brother's paedophilia and didn't eulogise a Nazi collaborator
Had he done any of those things, the Shinnerbots would defend him to the death
Not sure which is more worthy of an eye roll - Varadkar trying to brazen it out, the media doing their best to ignore it, or the acting justice minister doing her best to prejudice a criminal investigation by proclaiming that Leo's leaking of confidential "not for circulation" state documents to his pal was done so "in the public interest". And of course, he'll get away with it. Banana republic.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 10:07:34 AM
Varadkar's mistake is that he wasn't involved in the murder of an innocent woman, didn't order a human bomb, didn't cover up his brother's paedophilia and didn't eulogise a Nazi collaborator
Had he done any of those things, the Shinnerbots would defend him to the death
What's with all the whataboutery? I couldn't give a flying f**k what SF think - along with most of this board. Do you not think he has a case to answer? (and the Irish media as well)
A Shinner complaining about "whataboutery" ;D
A Shinner complaining about "corruption" ;D
What a laugh
Quote from: bennydorano on March 15, 2021, 11:03:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 10:07:34 AM
Varadkar's mistake is that he wasn't involved in the murder of an innocent woman, didn't order a human bomb, didn't cover up his brother's paedophilia and didn't eulogise a Nazi collaborator
Had he done any of those things, the Shinnerbots would defend him to the death
What's with all the whataboutery? I couldn't give a flying f**k what SF think - along with most of this board. Do you not think he has a case to answer? (and the Irish media as well)
Don't feed the troll, Benny.
Shinners think everybody who opposes them is a troll
Shows how in touch with reality they are
The exact same coin as the DUP and the Tories
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 11:21:06 AM
Shinners think everybody who opposes them is a troll
Shows how in touch with reality they are
The exact same coin as the DUP and the Tories
So you're OK with a senior Gov minister breaking the official secrets act by leaking a confidential document to his mate?
No deflection please.
Quote from: johnnycool on March 15, 2021, 11:25:50 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 11:21:06 AM
Shinners think everybody who opposes them is a troll
Shows how in touch with reality they are
The exact same coin as the DUP and the Tories
So you're OK with a senior Gov minister breaking the official secrets act by leaking a confidential document to his mate?
No deflection please.
Of course not
The point is there's an investigation underway and that should be allowed run its course
Shinners on this thread have
never been against actual corruption or gross misconduct by politicians, they have one rule for Shinners and another rule entirely for everybody else - they hold the most shameless double standards
If they were against corruption or gross misconduct, they certainly wouldn't be voting Sinn Fein
Shinners claiming to be anti-corruption is like a shark claiming to be interested in the safety of swimmers
It's a complete farce
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 11:21:06 AM
Shinners think everybody who opposes them is a troll
Shows how in touch with reality they are
The exact same coin as the DUP and the Tories
You recently accused me of being "into dead children". Of course you a troll. A sub-human one. I look forward to your inevitable permanent ban.
Quote from: Snapchap on March 15, 2021, 11:37:44 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 11:21:06 AM
Shinners think everybody who opposes them is a troll
Shows how in touch with reality they are
The exact same coin as the DUP and the Tories
You recently accused me of being "into dead children". Of course you a troll. A sub-human one. I look forward to your inevitable permanent ban.
Sure, and Ann Travers and Brian Stack are probably "sub-human trolls" too
May I remind you that calling those who disagree with them "sub-human" was
literally what the Nazis did
You realise this, yes?
And demanding others be silenced because you don't like their views has always been the Sinn Fein way
No, you're the only one who has accused me of being "into dead children". And then totally fabricating an accusation against another poster that he accused you of child rape? Of course you are sub-human.
Enough of speaking to you anyway.
@Snapchap
Do you acknowledge that calling others "sub human", as you do, is literally what the Nazis did?
The Monday morning after the story broke about the current Tánaiste and next Taoiseach being under criminal investigation, and the story is No. 15 on the RTÉ News website, no. 8 on the Irish Times, and No. 10 on the Indo. What a joke.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 11:10:28 AM
A Shinner complaining about "whataboutery" ;D
A Shinner complaining about "corruption" ;D
What a laugh
Answers a whataboutery question with more whataboutery. You're just a bit of a big child Sid.
I'm quite clearly not a SF supporter if you read my political posts.
what did he do?
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 15, 2021, 12:04:23 PM
what did he do?
https://villagemagazine.ie/its-a-crime/ (https://villagemagazine.ie/its-a-crime/)
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 15, 2021, 12:04:23 PM
what did he do?
There were two GP organisations negotiating the state contract. The IMO with 99% of GP's agreed a deal. A smaller union, run by a mate of Leo's and subsequently wound up by the fraud squad were still in talks. Leo ordered a copy of the IMO deal and couriered it to his mate. Harris as MoH was not allowed view this document due to its sensitivity
Leo claims his legal advise is that politicians are not considered to be public servants in the State Secrets Act.
Quote from: Snapchap on March 15, 2021, 11:52:01 AM
The Monday morning after the story broke about the current Tánaiste and next Taoiseach being under criminal investigation, and the story is No. 15 on the RTÉ News website, no. 8 on the Irish Times, and No. 10 on the Indo. What a joke.
RTE and the Times are under pressure to explain why they passed on this story
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Sorry but the strategy of Sinn Fein supporters literally any time anything to do with the PIRA or Sinn Fein corruption or murder is brought up is to whatabout, deflect and deny
See what happened when the Paul Quinn story raised its head before the last election
So it's absolutely laughable to see SF supporters complaining here
There's a very serious point here
And that is that Sinn Fein supporters have zero moral authority to call any sort of corruption - alleged or proven - and this case is far from proven
Again, Varadkar's mistake was that he didn't order a human bomb, rob a bank, cover up child sex abuse, cover up murders, or commemorate a Nazi collaborator
Because these are the exact things that Sinn Fein supporters not just tolerate but celebrate
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 15, 2021, 12:04:23 PM
what did he do?
- leaked a confidential contract to his friend who was head of a rival organisation
- messages show his friend and his colleagues saw this as an opportunity to destroy their rival organisation
- did not tell anyone in govt what he was doing
- claims he only did it for the good of the nation which is completely implausible
Also worth noting that the FFG government decided to appoint a former FF senator as independent board member which will investigate the case under the SIPO (Standards in Public Office). Said former FF senator is a former lobbyist for the NAGP (the organisation who the document was leaked to).
You couldn't make the transparent levels of corruption and cronyism up here.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Sorry but the strategy of Sinn Fein supporters literally any time anything to do with the PIRA or Sinn Fein corruption or murder is brought up is to whatabout, deflect and deny
See what happened when the Paul Quinn story raised its head before the last election
So it's absolutely laughable to see SF supporters complaining here
There's a very serious point here
And that is that Sinn Fein supporters have zero moral authority to call any sort of corruption - alleged or proven - and this case is far from proven
Again, Varadkar's mistake was that he didn't order a human bomb, rob a bank, cover up child sex abuse, cover up murders, or commemorate a Nazi collaborator
Because these are the exact things that Sinn Fein supporters not just tolerate but celebrate
Did you criticise those posters for their whataboutery, deflection and denials? Or were you happy enough for them to do so and believed it was an good debating strategy?
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on March 15, 2021, 12:12:35 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 15, 2021, 12:04:23 PM
what did he do?
Leo claims his legal advise is that politicians are not considered to be public servants in the State Secrets Act.
He also claims his motives in doing this was to "sew harmony" which does not hold up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Sorry but the strategy of Sinn Fein supporters literally any time anything to do with the PIRA or Sinn Fein corruption or murder is brought up is to whatabout, deflect and deny
See what happened when the Paul Quinn story raised its head before the last election
So it's absolutely laughable to see SF supporters complaining here
There's a very serious point here
And that is that Sinn Fein supporters have zero moral authority to call any sort of corruption - alleged or proven - and this case is far from proven
Again, Varadkar's mistake was that he didn't order a human bomb, rob a bank, cover up child sex abuse, cover up murders, or commemorate a Nazi collaborator
Because these are the exact things that Sinn Fein supporters not just tolerate but celebrate
Did you criticise those posters for their whataboutery, deflection and denials? Or were you happy enough for them to do so and believed it was an good debating strategy?
Shinners believe it's a good deflection strategy
That's why they do it
Sinn Feiners believe there should be one rule for themselves and another for everybody else
It's perfectly legitimate for people to believe Varadkar should resign if he is proven to done something that merits resigning
I would be of that opinion myself
The point is, Shinners
only believe that
others should face consequences for wrongdoing
They believe that Sinn Fein should be immune not just from consequences for corruption and crime, the consequences of murder and gross misconduct etc. but that nobody should have the right to even talk about it
That's what makes their fake concern about alleged corruption so laughable
The brazen hypocrisy and shamelessness
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Sorry but the strategy of Sinn Fein supporters literally any time anything to do with the PIRA or Sinn Fein corruption or murder is brought up is to whatabout, deflect and deny
See what happened when the Paul Quinn story raised its head before the last election
So it's absolutely laughable to see SF supporters complaining here
There's a very serious point here
And that is that Sinn Fein supporters have zero moral authority to call any sort of corruption - alleged or proven - and this case is far from proven
Again, Varadkar's mistake was that he didn't order a human bomb, rob a bank, cover up child sex abuse, cover up murders, or commemorate a Nazi collaborator
Because these are the exact things that Sinn Fein supporters not just tolerate but celebrate
Did you criticise those posters for their whataboutery, deflection and denials? Or were you happy enough for them to do so and believed it was an good debating strategy?
Shinners believe it's a good deflection strategy
That's why they do it
Sinn Feiners believe there should be one rule for themselves and another for everybody else
It's perfectly legitimate for people to believe Varadkar should resign if he is proven to done something that merits resigning
I would be of that opinion myself
The point is, Shinners only believe that others should face consequences for wrongdoing
They believe that Sinn Fein should be immune not just from consequences for corruption and crime, the consequences of murder and gross misconduct etc. but that nobody should have the right to even talk about it
That's what makes their fake concern about alleged corruption so laughable
The brazen hypocrisy and shamelessness
I didn't ask what Shinners think of that. I'm trying to see your motivation for the posts you've made on this thread. Do you think whataboutery, denial and deflection helps discussion?
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:30:33 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Sorry but the strategy of Sinn Fein supporters literally any time anything to do with the PIRA or Sinn Fein corruption or murder is brought up is to whatabout, deflect and deny
See what happened when the Paul Quinn story raised its head before the last election
So it's absolutely laughable to see SF supporters complaining here
There's a very serious point here
And that is that Sinn Fein supporters have zero moral authority to call any sort of corruption - alleged or proven - and this case is far from proven
Again, Varadkar's mistake was that he didn't order a human bomb, rob a bank, cover up child sex abuse, cover up murders, or commemorate a Nazi collaborator
Because these are the exact things that Sinn Fein supporters not just tolerate but celebrate
Did you criticise those posters for their whataboutery, deflection and denials? Or were you happy enough for them to do so and believed it was an good debating strategy?
Shinners believe it's a good deflection strategy
That's why they do it
Sinn Feiners believe there should be one rule for themselves and another for everybody else
It's perfectly legitimate for people to believe Varadkar should resign if he is proven to done something that merits resigning
I would be of that opinion myself
The point is, Shinners only believe that others should face consequences for wrongdoing
They believe that Sinn Fein should be immune not just from consequences for corruption and crime, the consequences of murder and gross misconduct etc. but that nobody should have the right to even talk about it
That's what makes their fake concern about alleged corruption so laughable
The brazen hypocrisy and shamelessness
I didn't ask what Shinners think of that. I'm trying to see your motivation for the posts you've made on this thread. Do you think whataboutery, denial and deflection helps discussion?
What's my motivation?
To expose the blatant and shameless hypocrisy of Shinners as regards corruption and wrongdoing
And I am doing just that
Shinners don't care one jot about corruption and wrongdoing by politicians
If they did, they wouldn't be Shinners
Preening, sanctimonious, virtue signalling hypocrites
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/garda%C3%AD-set-to-send-file-on-varadkar-leak-to-the-dpp-1.4510220?mode=amp
File will go to the DPP. Seems to hinge on whether he would have gained snd if his mate doing so falls under the legislation
If posters want to engage in unhinged, incoherent SF bashing there is a thread with 520 pages of such nonsensical and embittered tripe already on the board here with with them regular posters topping it up every so often.
Here is said thread.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=15128.0
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:34:40 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:30:33 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Sorry but the strategy of Sinn Fein supporters literally any time anything to do with the PIRA or Sinn Fein corruption or murder is brought up is to whatabout, deflect and deny
See what happened when the Paul Quinn story raised its head before the last election
So it's absolutely laughable to see SF supporters complaining here
There's a very serious point here
And that is that Sinn Fein supporters have zero moral authority to call any sort of corruption - alleged or proven - and this case is far from proven
Again, Varadkar's mistake was that he didn't order a human bomb, rob a bank, cover up child sex abuse, cover up murders, or commemorate a Nazi collaborator
Because these are the exact things that Sinn Fein supporters not just tolerate but celebrate
Did you criticise those posters for their whataboutery, deflection and denials? Or were you happy enough for them to do so and believed it was an good debating strategy?
Shinners believe it's a good deflection strategy
That's why they do it
Sinn Feiners believe there should be one rule for themselves and another for everybody else
It's perfectly legitimate for people to believe Varadkar should resign if he is proven to done something that merits resigning
I would be of that opinion myself
The point is, Shinners only believe that others should face consequences for wrongdoing
They believe that Sinn Fein should be immune not just from consequences for corruption and crime, the consequences of murder and gross misconduct etc. but that nobody should have the right to even talk about it
That's what makes their fake concern about alleged corruption so laughable
The brazen hypocrisy and shamelessness
I didn't ask what Shinners think of that. I'm trying to see your motivation for the posts you've made on this thread. Do you think whataboutery, denial and deflection helps discussion?
What's my motivation?
To expose the blatant and shameless hypocrisy of Shinners as regards corruption and wrongdoing
And I am doing just that
Shinners don't care one jot about corruption and wrongdoing by politicians
If they did, they wouldn't be Shinners
Preening, sanctimonious, virtue signalling hypocrites
So to hell with any debate on matters as long as you get to dictate the agenda on the board?
Grow up.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
So Leo is guilty of corruption?
Shinners calling on others to "grow up" is quite the irony
Preventing children from growing up was something the PIRA were expert at
When Slab Murphy was convicted of mass tax evasion, Gerry Adams' only response was to call him a "good Republican"
Shows how much SF care about corruption
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/slab-murphy-a-good-republican-despite-jailing-gerry-adams-1.2554445
Quote from: tiempo on March 15, 2021, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
So Leo is guilty of corruption?
No
That's why there's an investigation
Do you believe in due process?
Quote from: tiempo on March 15, 2021, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
So Leo is guilty of corruption?
By any political theory definition yes. No question.
By the legal definition tbc.
But the reality is the Tainiste and future Taoiseach is under criminal investigation.
Quote from: johnnycool on March 15, 2021, 11:25:50 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 11:21:06 AM
Shinners think everybody who opposes them is a troll
Shows how in touch with reality they are
The exact same coin as the DUP and the Tories
So you're OK with a senior Gov minister breaking the official secrets act by leaking a confidential document to his mate?
No deflection please.
Can a member of Government even break the Official Secrets Act. It appears to be written in a way (by Haughey I believe) that members of government are exempt. It was mainly written to put Public Servants on notice. The act is at pains to say members of government are not included in public servants. On top of that it was written in a way that gave members of government far too much power to be non-transparent. But it looks like it gave them similar power to share. It will be interesting to see where this goes but don't see anything in OSA that he broke.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:47:33 PM
Shinners calling on others to "grow up" is quite the irony
Preventing children from growing up was something the PIRA were expert at
When Slab Murphy was convicted of mass tax evasion, Gerry Adams' only response was to call him a "good Republican"
Shows how much SF care about corruption
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/slab-murphy-a-good-republican-despite-jailing-gerry-adams-1.2554445
You really should grow up. If not for your own sanity then to help everyone else on this board that we don't have to discuss only what you want us to.
Your posts today have been those of a spoilt child that wants to always decide what game is being played and throws the head up when they don't they way. You only want to allow debate on things you want to debate. For someone who is so left wing, I find that staggering.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:56:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:47:33 PM
Shinners calling on others to "grow up" is quite the irony
Preventing children from growing up was something the PIRA were expert at
When Slab Murphy was convicted of mass tax evasion, Gerry Adams' only response was to call him a "good Republican"
Shows how much SF care about corruption
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/slab-murphy-a-good-republican-despite-jailing-gerry-adams-1.2554445
You really should grow up. If not for your own sanity then to help everyone else on this board that we don't have to discuss only what you want us to.
Your posts today have been those of a spoilt child that wants to always decide what game is being played and throws the head up when they don't they way. You only want to allow debate on things you want to debate. For someone who is so left wing, I find that staggering.
Shinners have behaving like spoilt children on this forum for many, many years
The modus operandi of Shinners is exactly what you describe there
The points I have raised here have not been rebutted
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:59:44 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:56:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:47:33 PM
Shinners calling on others to "grow up" is quite the irony
Preventing children from growing up was something the PIRA were expert at
When Slab Murphy was convicted of mass tax evasion, Gerry Adams' only response was to call him a "good Republican"
Shows how much SF care about corruption
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/slab-murphy-a-good-republican-despite-jailing-gerry-adams-1.2554445
You really should grow up. If not for your own sanity then to help everyone else on this board that we don't have to discuss only what you want us to.
Your posts today have been those of a spoilt child that wants to always decide what game is being played and throws the head up when they don't they way. You only want to allow debate on things you want to debate. For someone who is so left wing, I find that staggering.
Shinners have behaving like spoilt children on this forum for many, many years
The modus operandi of Shinners is exactly what you describe there
The points I have raised here have not been rebutted
So you are happy acting like a spoilt child now. Grand so, It's what I expected to be honest. Feel free to take your ball home with you anytime.
I'll avoid saying anything about the Shinners lest I get accused of being a bot.
There is some smell off this story. The smell is so deep that it won't go away. Even the way it appeared in yesterday's papers has a bang off it. I would think someone decided that the best course of action would be damage limitation and get the story out. Would the guards have said publicly that they were upgrading it to a criminal investigation. I doubt it very much.
There's no point in talking about innocent until proven guilty either. Varadkar has (reluctantly) admitted that he did it but he has come up with a c**k and bull story to justify it. I doubt many really believe his story. In particular I doubt very much that the rank and fie in FF believe him but they are too afraid to do anything because they are so low in the opinion polls. Village magazine have goaded him to the sue them but he hasn't done so. That in itself tells all you need to know if you are willing to open your eyes and accept what is staring you in the face.
Look at how Varadkar has treated his own government colleagues over the years. Francis Fitzgerald had to resign the Justice portfolio for a lot less. While the trail doesn't go back directly to Varadkar FF lost 2 agriculture ministers last year for less but for whatever reason Varadkar seems to be untouchable. The party of law and order my arse. To cap it all we have the stand in Justice Minister publicly standing square with him on TV yesterday. Can they not see how bad a look that is ? Laws are only for the little people it seems
Apparently the opposition has to wait a further two months to propose a vote of no confidence against Varadkar.
But as Itchy said on the first page.
The primary issue for me is how the mainstream media in the state including the state broadcaster has done everything in its power to suppress or minimise the coverage on this issue.
This is also worth reading on how the FFG Greens government decided to investigate matters in a fair and independent manner.......
https://www.thejournal.ie/dail-approves-geraldine-feeney-sipo-5271609-Nov2020/
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 10:07:34 AM
Varadkar's mistake is that he wasn't involved in the murder of an innocent woman, didn't order a human bomb, didn't cover up his brother's paedophilia and didn't eulogise a Nazi collaborator
Had he done any of those things, the Shinnerbots would defend him to the death
And just like that things go to shit again
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Seems like very few people care
Sinn Fein have been less than vocal anyway and that's hardly a surprise given they have no moral authority whatsoever to call out corruption
Though maybe they could use some of the Northern Bank money to fund their own "investigation"
You're trying to do one of two things Sid.
Trying to wind up SF posters, and don't give a sh!t if you side track another thread to do so just so you can point score.
Trying to supress discussion about the actual issue by trying to use distracting whataboutery.
Neither is an addition to the board and you are acting like a complete child.
Sorry but the strategy of Sinn Fein supporters literally any time anything to do with the PIRA or Sinn Fein corruption or murder is brought up is to whatabout, deflect and deny
See what happened when the Paul Quinn story raised its head before the last election
So it's absolutely laughable to see SF supporters complaining here
There's a very serious point here
And that is that Sinn Fein supporters have zero moral authority to call any sort of corruption - alleged or proven - and this case is far from proven
Again, Varadkar's mistake was that he didn't order a human bomb, rob a bank, cover up child sex abuse, cover up murders, or commemorate a Nazi collaborator
Because these are the exact things that Sinn Fein supporters not just tolerate but celebrate
Whereas you turn everything into SF bashing
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
This is just an incredible comment.
I would certainly hope politicians don't go around leaking confidential contracts to their friends and associates who have vested interests in those documents.
And I would certainly hope that they are punished if they are exposed doing so.
Obviously you are pro-corruption?
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
That's not the point. I don't think the inference here is that Leo gained anything personally but rather it was the recipient that stood to gain. Who knows what his motivation was to leak it. Leo claims he is exempt from the officials secrets act but there's doubt over that too. Whether or not it goes to court remains to be seen but no matter what happens now he is badly damaged by the whole thing. The label #Leotheleak has stuck and he can't even deny it. I doubt very much that he'll be Taoiseach again.
In July, the leaders of the four other main parties in Stormont all called for Michelle O'Neill to stand aside as SF leader while she was under police investigation
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/sinn-fein-isolated-every-other-executive-party-calls-michelle-oneill-quit-over-flagrant-breaches-2902544
Sinn Féin isolated as every other Executive party calls on Michelle O'Neill to quit over 'flagrant' breaches
This was the response:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-31008846.html
O'Neill 'will not be stepping aside under any circumstances', says Sinn Féin
Sinn Fein are like something out of the Benny Hill show
The most corrupt and shameless of the lot of them
And not one Shinnerbot here called on O'Neill to stand aside
Total and utter hypocrites
Quote from: straightred on March 15, 2021, 02:29:14 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
That's not the point. I don't think the inference here is that Leo gained anything personally but rather it was the recipient that stood to gain. Who knows what his motivation was to leak it. Leo claims he is exempt from the officials secrets act but there's doubt over that too. Whether or not it goes to court remains to be seen but no matter what happens now he is badly damaged by the whole thing. The label #Leotheleak has stuck and he can't even deny it. I doubt very much that he'll be Taoiseach again.
That's reaching and again very difficult to prove. I wouldn't be so sure about Leo never becoming Taoiseach again. Michael Lowry has criminal convictions for his questionable finances, not to mention the tribunal findings against him and he continues to top the polls in Tipp. The Irish electorate can forget very quickly about things like this and while #leotheleak might be trending on twitter, that's a cesspit of hate/abuse these days and not reflective of real world opinion
Varadkar is unlikely to be elected again if it goes to the polls I'd imagine. He's been shown up to be nothing more than a toxic, corrupt and divisive Tatcherite politician.
He has cynically used his sexuality and race to create a toxic political discourse in the past, has tried to stoke tensions over being white and middles class and recently last week sought to crassly bring sectarianism to stoke political tensions.
He is an absolute sc**bag of a politician.
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:49:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 15, 2021, 02:29:14 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
That's not the point. I don't think the inference here is that Leo gained anything personally but rather it was the recipient that stood to gain. Who knows what his motivation was to leak it. Leo claims he is exempt from the officials secrets act but there's doubt over that too. Whether or not it goes to court remains to be seen but no matter what happens now he is badly damaged by the whole thing. The label #Leotheleak has stuck and he can't even deny it. I doubt very much that he'll be Taoiseach again.
That's reaching and again very difficult to prove. I wouldn't be so sure about Leo never becoming Taoiseach again. Michael Lowry has criminal convictions for his questionable finances, not to mention the tribunal findings against him and he continues to top the polls in Tipp. The Irish electorate can forget very quickly about things like this and while #leotheleak might be trending on twitter, that's a cesspit of hate/abuse these days and not reflective of real world opinion
I'm no fan of Varadkar, not least for the way he arrogantly dismissed public health advice, but some of the abuse aimed at him, including on this forum, has a distinctly racist air about it, homophobic too - we know there is at least one extremely prominent poster here who really doesn't like the idea of gayness at all
Twitter hashtags mean nothing in the real world, they're like Irish number ones, you can reach the top of the hit parade with a couple of hundred co-ordinated messages
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 02:20:31 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
This is just an incredible comment.
I would certainly hope politicians don't go around leaking confidential contracts to their friends and associates who have vested interests in those documents.
And I would certainly hope that they are punished if they are exposed doing so.
Obviously you are pro-corruption?
On this one, it's questionable why a contract that was to pay doctors with taxpayers money is covered by Official Secrets Act. There should always be complete transparency around this. The OSA was created by Haughey to enable politicians to easily suppress information. However, as I mentioned earlier, the statute was written in such a way that members of government are exempt should they release the data. Ironically those who believe Varadkar broke the law must hold tight to the most extreme interpretation of a British law that was later made more extreme by Charlie Haughey. Good article on the authoritarianism of the OSA here.
https://www.theirishstory.com/2010/07/25/a-short-history-of-freedom-of-information-in-independent-ireland/#.YE-QOJNKhQI
Bit disappointed with you Angelo for defending a classic piece of British/Fianna Fail/Irish Free state piece of authoritarian legislation to block transparency in how the public purse is used. Do you not think anyone had a right to see what the government was negotiating with the doctor's union?
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 04:54:26 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 02:20:31 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
This is just an incredible comment.
I would certainly hope politicians don't go around leaking confidential contracts to their friends and associates who have vested interests in those documents.
And I would certainly hope that they are punished if they are exposed doing so.
Obviously you are pro-corruption?
On this one, it's questionable why a contract that was to pay doctors with taxpayers money is covered by Official Secrets Act. There should always be complete transparency around this. The OSA was created by Haughey to enable politicians to easily suppress information. However, as I mentioned earlier, the statute was written in such a way that members of government are exempt should they release the data. Ironically those who believe Varadkar broke the law must hold tight to the most extreme interpretation of a British law that was later made more extreme by Charlie Haughey. Good article on the authoritarianism of the OSA here.
https://www.theirishstory.com/2010/07/25/a-short-history-of-freedom-of-information-in-independent-ireland/#.YE-QOJNKhQI
Bit disappointed with you Angelo for defending a classic piece of British/Fianna Fail/Irish Free state piece of authoritarian legislation to block transparency in how the public purse is used. Do you not think anyone had a right to see what the government was negotiating with the doctor's union?
Disappointed in me?
The fact that you are proffering the most ridiculous type of excuse here for the head of state pulling strokes for a friend is telling.
I think you are being disingenuous and facetious here so I'm going to ask you this here.
This is a text message from Varadkar's friend that was published by Village Magazine.
(https://villagemagazine.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Text-1.2-1-592x1024.png)
So the guy he provided with a confidential contract, who was not party to the talks, who was from a rival organisation who is stating he wanted to destroy them.
Do you think it was transparent that Varadkar was assisting friends who wanted to destroy a rival organisation? Do you think it was transparency that he went behind the back of all his cabinet colleagues to help his friend out? Do you think it was transparency that led Varadkar to delete his text message exchanges with his friend?
And he did it while the then Minister of Health (Harris) couldn't even get his hands on the contract (he was refused access by his own dept) That's a measure of how sensitive this was but leo stuffed a copy in an envelope and sent it to his mate (for reasons unknown).
As i said earlier laws are only for the little people
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2021, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:49:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 15, 2021, 02:29:14 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 15, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
It's hard to see how this has any chance of going to court. Politicians from all parties around the world have been leaking document since forever, this just happens to be the one occasion a politician got caught. I don't see how it can be proven Leo gained materially from leaking the document.
Can you imagine the terror if politicians/journalists were told they face prosecution for publishing leaked documents.
That's not the point. I don't think the inference here is that Leo gained anything personally but rather it was the recipient that stood to gain. Who knows what his motivation was to leak it. Leo claims he is exempt from the officials secrets act but there's doubt over that too. Whether or not it goes to court remains to be seen but no matter what happens now he is badly damaged by the whole thing. The label #Leotheleak has stuck and he can't even deny it. I doubt very much that he'll be Taoiseach again.
That's reaching and again very difficult to prove. I wouldn't be so sure about Leo never becoming Taoiseach again. Michael Lowry has criminal convictions for his questionable finances, not to mention the tribunal findings against him and he continues to top the polls in Tipp. The Irish electorate can forget very quickly about things like this and while #leotheleak might be trending on twitter, that's a cesspit of hate/abuse these days and not reflective of real world opinion
I'm no fan of Varadkar, not least for the way he arrogantly dismissed public health advice, but some of the abuse aimed at him, including on this forum, has a distinctly racist air about it, homophobic too - we know there is at least one extremely prominent poster here who really doesn't like the idea of gayness at all
Twitter hashtags mean nothing in the real world, they're like Irish number ones, you can reach the top of the hit parade with a couple of hundred co-ordinated messages
And i'm not fan of him either and there's nothing racist or homophobic about that. I believe this is more evidence of how he has dragged FG down toward the gutter. The constant gaslighting of other parties and the undermining of FF is more evidence. Standards have dropped in FG since Kenny departed. If you point to a few of Leo's achievements then there might be a case for him deserving the benefit of the considerable doubt but I can't think of any. Lets not forget he inherited the Taoiseach's job and then promptly led them to coming 3rd in a 2 horse race in the last general election. Lastly on the hashtag I agree its nothing much in itself but do you really think that all other parties (including FF) won't make hay with this when the time comes ?
RTE doing a good job in giving this as little coverage as they can.
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 05:04:40 PM
So the guy he provided with a confidential contract, who was not party to the talks, who was from a rival organisation who is stating he wanted to destroy them.
Do you think it was transparent that Varadkar was assisting friends who wanted to destroy a rival organisation? Do you think it was transparency that he went behind the back of all his cabinet colleagues to help his friend out? Do you think it was transparency that led Varadkar to delete his text message exchanges with his friend?
A rival union. Everyone - including me and you - should know how tax payers money is being used, particular with a union like IMO. One union trying to destroy another is neither here nor there. Have a look at the history of the IMO, which itself ate up another union. Huge amounts of financial corruption. Huge retirement packages. A CEO got a nice 9 million retirement package. It was right that both unions should have access to the agreement. And above all, the public should have known. The question is was the law broken by showing a draft of the pay agreement. I'm willing to bet no law was broken based on how the statute is written. Time will tell.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rtenews/status/1364293445418909709
Micheal and Leo having a good snigger at the last announcement regarding public health . They really don't give a damn about the ordinary joe soap. Then try to deflect everything slating opposition parties.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rtenews/status/1364293445418909709
23rd February ::)
Tomas Ose not happy with Stephen Donnelly 🤣🤣🤣
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/6693437/tomas-o-se-stephen-donnelly-bluffer-health-covid-vaccine/amp/
The Free State shills circling the wagon here.
It's notable the chaps who claim not to vote FG who are the ones doing so.
The RTE bit on it there managed to mention Bobby Storey and the money left to SF in a will. Good impartial reporting as ever.
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 05:04:40 PM
So the guy he provided with a confidential contract, who was not party to the talks, who was from a rival organisation who is stating he wanted to destroy them.
Do you think it was transparent that Varadkar was assisting friends who wanted to destroy a rival organisation? Do you think it was transparency that he went behind the back of all his cabinet colleagues to help his friend out? Do you think it was transparency that led Varadkar to delete his text message exchanges with his friend?
A rival union. Everyone - including me and you - should know how tax payers money is being used, particular with a union like IMO. One union trying to destroy another is neither here nor there. Have a look at the history of the IMO, which itself ate up another union. Huge amounts of financial corruption. Huge retirement packages. A CEO got a nice 9 million retirement package. It was right that both unions should have access to the agreement. And above all, the public should have known. The question is was the law broken by showing a draft of the pay agreement. I'm willing to bet no law was broken based on how the statute is written. Time will tell.
So you are ignoring the fact that the guy who he leaked the confidential document too stated that his intention was to destroy the IMO.
This is about Varadkar breaking the law to pull favours for his friends. For some bizarre reason only known to you, you are attempting to shift focus o this and justify it because the IMO may not have been governed properly.
Ironically enough the organisation Varadkar leaked the confidential documents too were wound up for financial irregularities and poor governance.
Your justification is utterly incredible here. Who do you vote for?
"Free state shills" like Vincent Browne ;D
Quotehttps://twitter.com/vincentbrowne/status/1371494965168181248
Mary Lou wants Leo Varadkar sacked because the Gardai are investigating him re a crime: the leaking of a confidential documenting document. Why did she not demand Gerry Adams be sacked when the PSNI were investigating him re a crime: Jean McConville's murder?
The empty vessels still endeavouring to shout and detract away from Varadkar. There's already a 520 page, 6k + posts thread for SF bashing on here.
Orders must have gone out to them this morning to lash into Varadkar.
Varadkar should temporarily step down sin é. Shinners ar hard to stick but it shouldn't detract from this . Someone on hq just presses play and it's all hands to the pump on social media with them
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2021, 07:03:39 PM
Orders must have gone out to them this morning to lash into Varadkar.
The same lads you were talking in corridors who were told not to question Dublin funding?? 🙄🙄🤣🤣
https://mobile.twitter.com/caulmick/status/1371527921815404546
https://mobile.twitter.com/caulmick/status/1371527921815404546
Shinners think everything is a "deep state" conspiracy
Release the Craicen
Or something like that
There's a 520 page thread on SF bashing down the page.
Can you kindly f**k off and post your absolute nonsense on that and stop spamming this thread with your bigoted crap.
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 06:56:48 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 05:04:40 PM
So the guy he provided with a confidential contract, who was not party to the talks, who was from a rival organisation who is stating he wanted to destroy them.
Do you think it was transparent that Varadkar was assisting friends who wanted to destroy a rival organisation? Do you think it was transparency that he went behind the back of all his cabinet colleagues to help his friend out? Do you think it was transparency that led Varadkar to delete his text message exchanges with his friend?
A rival union. Everyone - including me and you - should know how tax payers money is being used, particular with a union like IMO. One union trying to destroy another is neither here nor there. Have a look at the history of the IMO, which itself ate up another union. Huge amounts of financial corruption. Huge retirement packages. A CEO got a nice 9 million retirement package. It was right that both unions should have access to the agreement. And above all, the public should have known. The question is was the law broken by showing a draft of the pay agreement. I'm willing to bet no law was broken based on how the statute is written. Time will tell.
So you are ignoring the fact that the guy who he leaked the confidential document too stated that his intention was to destroy the IMO.
Not ignoring. It's well known a lot of doctors left the IMO after the previous CEO got a 9 million payout - was originally supposed to be 20 million. So it was considered corrupt at the top.
Quote
This is about Varadkar breaking the law to pull favours for his friends. For some bizarre reason only known to you, you are attempting to shift focus o this and justify it because the IMO may not have been governed properly.
No, I have said all along that the way the Official Secrets Act was written, I did not think a law was broken. I also stated that the OSA is an authoritarian law written by the then minister Charles Haughey to suppress info. I thought it curious that those who argue a law was broken, need it to be a very authoritarian law that prevents even harmless data being shared. Thus oh Leo broke the law. I would argue it's entirely harmless to share this data, and besides, the OSA gives authorisation to members of government to release confidential data. At issue is the way he was not transparent with his own party or government, but as regards the OSA - show me any clause in that statute that was broken. I'd be curious. If I'm wrong I'll admit it.
Quote
Ironically enough the organisation Varadkar leaked the confidential documents too were wound up for financial irregularities and poor governance.
Agreed. I have no love for either union. But both at the time were representing doctors.
Quote
Your justification is utterly incredible here. Who do you vote for?
Always been left wing, so can assure not any of the following parties: FG, FF, SF, PDs, Aontu, etc.
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 08:01:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 06:56:48 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 05:04:40 PM
So the guy he provided with a confidential contract, who was not party to the talks, who was from a rival organisation who is stating he wanted to destroy them.
Do you think it was transparent that Varadkar was assisting friends who wanted to destroy a rival organisation? Do you think it was transparency that he went behind the back of all his cabinet colleagues to help his friend out? Do you think it was transparency that led Varadkar to delete his text message exchanges with his friend?
A rival union. Everyone - including me and you - should know how tax payers money is being used, particular with a union like IMO. One union trying to destroy another is neither here nor there. Have a look at the history of the IMO, which itself ate up another union. Huge amounts of financial corruption. Huge retirement packages. A CEO got a nice 9 million retirement package. It was right that both unions should have access to the agreement. And above all, the public should have known. The question is was the law broken by showing a draft of the pay agreement. I'm willing to bet no law was broken based on how the statute is written. Time will tell.
So you are ignoring the fact that the guy who he leaked the confidential document too stated that his intention was to destroy the IMO.
Not ignoring. It's well known a lot of doctors left the IMO after the previous CEO got a 9 million payout - was originally supposed to be 20 million. So it was considered corrupt at the top.
Quote
This is about Varadkar breaking the law to pull favours for his friends. For some bizarre reason only known to you, you are attempting to shift focus o this and justify it because the IMO may not have been governed properly.
No, I have said all along that the way the Official Secrets Act was written, I did not think a law was broken. I also stated that the OSA is an authoritarian law written by the then minister Charles Haughey to suppress info. I thought it curious that those who argue a law was broken, need it to be a very authoritarian law that prevents even harmless data being shared. Thus oh Leo broke the law. I would argue it's entirely harmless to share this data, and besides, the OSA gives authorisation to members of government to release confidential data. At issue is the way he was not transparent with his own party or government, but as regards the OSA - show me any clause in that statute that was broken. I'd be curious. If I'm wrong I'll admit it.
Quote
Ironically enough the organisation Varadkar leaked the confidential documents too were wound up for financial irregularities and poor governance.
Agreed. I have no love for either union. But both at the time were representing doctors.
Quote
Your justification is utterly incredible here. Who do you vote for?
Always been left wing, so can assure not any of the following parties: FG, FF, SF, PDs, Aontu, etc.
Ah yes.
Another one of the I don't vote for FFG but who spend most of their time defending them. It's amazing how most free staters you speak to on this board will not admit to voting for the three parties who took home 68% of the votes in the last election. It's also amazing how the likes of you guys will bash SF and roll out to defend FFG at every opportunity. You're an ashamed FFG voter. We'll just get that clear now and not let you insult the intelligence of the board with po-faced lies.
On to Varadkar. It's absolutely preposterous what you're saying here, it's completely illogical.
You have ignored the fact that the Varadkar leaked an agreement that was confidential to the IMO and govt to a rival organisation. He did this throught he medium of his friend who had been pestering Varadkar for the document.
We know that his friend intended to "destroy" the rival organisation involved in the talks and Varadkar armed him with something that the NAGP believed would allow them "to take the wind out of the IMO's sails".
You make this point about the IMO which is ridiculous when the rival organisation was actually even more shambolically governed that the organisation you were undermining. That rival organisation is now wound up due to financial irregularities and poor governance. This was well known at the time of the leak too so the argument you are making here has no credibility.
There's nothing that justifies this type of naked cronyism that Varadkar engaged. He abused his position of power, the highest office in the state, to advance the interest of his friends. He broke the law in doing so, he is under criminal investigation and he should step aside until this is all over. He should have resigned as Tanaiste when this news emerged, he should have been sacked if he refused to resign and how anyone can defend this is beyond me.
It is not credible to say anything other than Varadkar did this as a favour for his friend.
Why did he delete text messages of the requests? He was required to keep these due to FOI requirements, so why would he delete them? Who deletes Whatsapp messages? Particularly ones that are official requests? Why would he do this?
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 08:21:45 PM
Another one of the I don't vote for FFG but who spend most of their time defending them. It's amazing how most free staters you speak to on this board will not admit to voting for the three parties who took home 68% of the votes in the last election. It's also amazing how the likes of you guys will bash SF and roll out to defend FFG at every opportunity. You're an ashamed FFG voter. We'll just get that clear now and not let you insult the intelligence of the board with po-faced lies.
On to Varadkar. It's absolutely preposterous what you're saying here, it's completely illogical.
You have ignored the fact that the Varadkar leaked an agreement that was confidential to the IMO and govt to a rival organisation. He did this throught he medium of his friend who had been pestering Varadkar for the document.
I don't think I'm on any thread bashing SF, or any other party. In fact, I think I've told you before I have great respect for our local Sinn Fein councillor. I've just asked you for the part of the Official Secrets Act, or whatever Act, where a law has been broken. Can you quote in plain English or as Gaeilige instead of the usual rant that you must be a Free State voting FFG voter. I would just like to see what part of the Act was contravened, because based on my reading I did not see anything that would hold up in court. And besides, as I've said the Official Secrets Act is a classic example of the toxic Free State culture you like to rail against - a lethal combination of British legislation and the worst excesses of Fianna Fail that has been misused over the decades to slap confidential on literally anything.
Did ML call for GA to stand down when being investigated for Jean Mc Convilles murder?.
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 08:41:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 08:21:45 PM
Another one of the I don't vote for FFG but who spend most of their time defending them. It's amazing how most free staters you speak to on this board will not admit to voting for the three parties who took home 68% of the votes in the last election. It's also amazing how the likes of you guys will bash SF and roll out to defend FFG at every opportunity. You're an ashamed FFG voter. We'll just get that clear now and not let you insult the intelligence of the board with po-faced lies.
On to Varadkar. It's absolutely preposterous what you're saying here, it's completely illogical.
You have ignored the fact that the Varadkar leaked an agreement that was confidential to the IMO and govt to a rival organisation. He did this throught he medium of his friend who had been pestering Varadkar for the document.
I don't think I'm on any thread bashing SF, or any other party. In fact, I think I've told you before I have great respect for our local Sinn Fein councillor. I've just asked you for the part of the Official Secrets Act, or whatever Act, where a law has been broken. Can you quote in plain English or as Gaeilige instead of the usual rant that you must be a Free State voting FFG voter. I would just like to see what part of the Act was contravened, because based on my reading I did not see anything that would hold up in court. And besides, as I've said the Official Secrets Act is a classic example of the toxic Free State culture you like to rail against - a lethal combination of British legislation and the worst excesses of Fianna Fail that has been misused over the decades to slap confidential on literally anything.
Apologies if I picked you up wrong.
He was gaining an advantage for a friend.
lt's plain and simple in that regard and stating otherwise defies credibility and logic. That was his motive, nothing was for the good of the nation or passing this deal.
There is now a full criminal investigation underway and a file is being readied for DPP so it's serious. I don't believe anything will come on this as we can see that the FFG strangehold on judicial auspices are very much aligned of late. That was another murky chapter for FFG and their horsetrading on judicial appointments.
The biggest story of 2020 was Clifden but the focus was all on the wrong reasons, the entitlement of the powerful to have their shindig while the little people who were told to stay indoors was not surprising but a detraction from the real talking point. The biggest revelation was the cosy relationship between the judiciary, the banking sector, vulture funds, state media and the ruling class politicians of FF/FG/Lab. Vulture funds, judges, current affairs broadcasters and ministers all cavorting around at a social event sponsored by a state body - that's any eye opener into the FFG establishment corruption culture. That element was stripped there naked for all to see and do you think RTE and Independent/Irish Times bothered to cover it? No.
The media in the Free State are an absolute disgrace
Quote from: skeog on March 15, 2021, 08:45:28 PM
Did ML call for GA to stand down when being investigated for Jean Mc Convilles murder?.
Another one trying to deflect from the issue at hand.
Quote from: skeog on March 15, 2021, 08:45:28 PM
Did ML call for GA to stand down when being investigated for Jean Mc Convilles murder?.
He wasn't the Taoiseach
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 08:41:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 08:21:45 PM
Another one of the I don't vote for FFG but who spend most of their time defending them. It's amazing how most free staters you speak to on this board will not admit to voting for the three parties who took home 68% of the votes in the last election. It's also amazing how the likes of you guys will bash SF and roll out to defend FFG at every opportunity. You're an ashamed FFG voter. We'll just get that clear now and not let you insult the intelligence of the board with po-faced lies.
On to Varadkar. It's absolutely preposterous what you're saying here, it's completely illogical.
You have ignored the fact that the Varadkar leaked an agreement that was confidential to the IMO and govt to a rival organisation. He did this throught he medium of his friend who had been pestering Varadkar for the document.
I don't think I'm on any thread bashing SF, or any other party. In fact, I think I've told you before I have great respect for our local Sinn Fein councillor. I've just asked you for the part of the Official Secrets Act, or whatever Act, where a law has been broken. Can you quote in plain English or as Gaeilige instead of the usual rant that you must be a Free State voting FFG voter. I would just like to see what part of the Act was contravened, because based on my reading I did not see anything that would hold up in court. And besides, as I've said the Official Secrets Act is a classic example of the toxic Free State culture you like to rail against - a lethal combination of British legislation and the worst excesses of Fianna Fail that has been misused over the decades to slap confidential on literally anything.
Here's the village magazine's take on it. They are calling out the Irish Times.
https://twitter.com/VillageMagIRE/status/1371152775409729550
Who knows if it will even reach a court but the fact that it has got this far means there must be some substance in it. As incoming Mknister for Justice Heather Humphries's declaration yesterday that he did nothing wrong isn't helpful either
He was the leader of SF at the time sure wasnt there a big welcome home party on his release without charge.Poor Mrs mc Conville was not afforded the same to her young family.SF are well used to being a judge and jury outfit I am sure if Mr V has done wrong he will rightly tried in a proper court of law.The same privelege was not afforded to so many who fell foul of Mr Stakeknife and so many others.Dont hear many clamouring for him to face justice from within the SF ranks.
Is the south now the same as the north where no one resigns for one reason... because sin fein?
Some amount of deflection on this thread. SF live rent free in an awful amount of posters heads
Quote from: skeog on March 15, 2021, 09:31:56 PM
He was the leader of SF at the time sure wasnt there a big welcome home party on his release without charge.Poor Mrs mc Conville was not afforded the same to her young family.SF are well used to being a judge and jury outfit I am sure if Mr V has done wrong he will rightly tried in a proper court of law.The same privelege was not afforded to so many who fell foul of Mr Stakeknife and so many others.Dont hear many clamouring for him to face justice from within the SF ranks.
Threads have titles for a reason. As others have also tried to point out can I respectfully remind you that there are plenty of other relevant threads for the above.
Quote from: skeog on March 15, 2021, 09:31:56 PM
He was the leader of SF at the time sure wasnt there a big welcome home party on his release without charge.Poor Mrs mc Conville was not afforded the same to her young family.SF are well used to being a judge and jury outfit I am sure if Mr V has done wrong he will rightly tried in a proper court of law.The same privelege was not afforded to so many who fell foul of Mr Stakeknife and so many others.Dont hear many clamouring for him to face justice from within the SF ranks.
It's bizarre you enter into a thread on Leo Varadkar facing criminal charges and the only matter you are interested n debating is some false equivalence with SF.
Vardakar is facing criminal charges for an abuse of power when he was Taoiseach. Now if you want to go and engage in SF bashing we have a 520 page thread which is for that purpose. I'm sure you're familiar with it.
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 15, 2021, 09:36:59 PM
Some amount of deflection on this thread. SF live rent free in an awful amount of posters heads
As I have said numerous times on this thread.
We have a 520 page thread where the usual suspects are blaming SF for everything. The same suspects need not ruin every other thread with their spam.
Quote from: straightred on March 15, 2021, 09:29:51 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 08:41:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 08:21:45 PM
Another one of the I don't vote for FFG but who spend most of their time defending them. It's amazing how most free staters you speak to on this board will not admit to voting for the three parties who took home 68% of the votes in the last election. It's also amazing how the likes of you guys will bash SF and roll out to defend FFG at every opportunity. You're an ashamed FFG voter. We'll just get that clear now and not let you insult the intelligence of the board with po-faced lies.
On to Varadkar. It's absolutely preposterous what you're saying here, it's completely illogical.
You have ignored the fact that the Varadkar leaked an agreement that was confidential to the IMO and govt to a rival organisation. He did this throught he medium of his friend who had been pestering Varadkar for the document.
I don't think I'm on any thread bashing SF, or any other party. In fact, I think I've told you before I have great respect for our local Sinn Fein councillor. I've just asked you for the part of the Official Secrets Act, or whatever Act, where a law has been broken. Can you quote in plain English or as Gaeilige instead of the usual rant that you must be a Free State voting FFG voter. I would just like to see what part of the Act was contravened, because based on my reading I did not see anything that would hold up in court. And besides, as I've said the Official Secrets Act is a classic example of the toxic Free State culture you like to rail against - a lethal combination of British legislation and the worst excesses of Fianna Fail that has been misused over the decades to slap confidential on literally anything.
Here's the village magazine's take on it. They are calling out the Irish Times.
https://twitter.com/VillageMagIRE/status/1371152775409729550
Who knows if it will even reach a court but the fact that it has got this far means there must be some substance in it. As incoming Mknister for Justice Heather Humphries's declaration yesterday that he did nothing wrong isn't helpful either
Can only conclude Village Magazine did not read full act for it defines Public Office - "does not include membership of either House of the Oireachtas." As I said it was written in such a way that members of government are exempt. Haughey himself said it was to put public officials on notice. But that did not mean government TDs.
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:03:27 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 15, 2021, 09:29:51 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 08:41:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 08:21:45 PM
Another one of the I don't vote for FFG but who spend most of their time defending them. It's amazing how most free staters you speak to on this board will not admit to voting for the three parties who took home 68% of the votes in the last election. It's also amazing how the likes of you guys will bash SF and roll out to defend FFG at every opportunity. You're an ashamed FFG voter. We'll just get that clear now and not let you insult the intelligence of the board with po-faced lies.
On to Varadkar. It's absolutely preposterous what you're saying here, it's completely illogical.
You have ignored the fact that the Varadkar leaked an agreement that was confidential to the IMO and govt to a rival organisation. He did this throught he medium of his friend who had been pestering Varadkar for the document.
I don't think I'm on any thread bashing SF, or any other party. In fact, I think I've told you before I have great respect for our local Sinn Fein councillor. I've just asked you for the part of the Official Secrets Act, or whatever Act, where a law has been broken. Can you quote in plain English or as Gaeilige instead of the usual rant that you must be a Free State voting FFG voter. I would just like to see what part of the Act was contravened, because based on my reading I did not see anything that would hold up in court. And besides, as I've said the Official Secrets Act is a classic example of the toxic Free State culture you like to rail against - a lethal combination of British legislation and the worst excesses of Fianna Fail that has been misused over the decades to slap confidential on literally anything.
Here's the village magazine's take on it. They are calling out the Irish Times.
https://twitter.com/VillageMagIRE/status/1371152775409729550
Who knows if it will even reach a court but the fact that it has got this far means there must be some substance in it. As incoming Mknister for Justice Heather Humphries's declaration yesterday that he did nothing wrong isn't helpful either
Can only conclude Village Magazine did not read full act for it defines Public Office - "does not include membership of either House of the Oireachtas." As I said it was written in such a way that members of government are exempt. Haughey himself said it was to put public officials on notice. But that did not mean government TDs.
I don't know enough about the OSA or legislation in general but this is probably going to be the crux of it (were's Joe Brolly when you need him). He has admitted that he did it so there's no question there. He claims his motives were in the national interest or some such nonsense (i'm not buying that but some people still believe him as is their right to do so)
The question therefore seems to centre around whether or not the OSA or any other Act applies to him leaking the document. I presume the lawyers will clear it up
There's a fierce whiff of Benghazi off this
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:03:27 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 15, 2021, 09:29:51 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 08:41:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 08:21:45 PM
Another one of the I don't vote for FFG but who spend most of their time defending them. It's amazing how most free staters you speak to on this board will not admit to voting for the three parties who took home 68% of the votes in the last election. It's also amazing how the likes of you guys will bash SF and roll out to defend FFG at every opportunity. You're an ashamed FFG voter. We'll just get that clear now and not let you insult the intelligence of the board with po-faced lies.
On to Varadkar. It's absolutely preposterous what you're saying here, it's completely illogical.
You have ignored the fact that the Varadkar leaked an agreement that was confidential to the IMO and govt to a rival organisation. He did this throught he medium of his friend who had been pestering Varadkar for the document.
I don't think I'm on any thread bashing SF, or any other party. In fact, I think I've told you before I have great respect for our local Sinn Fein councillor. I've just asked you for the part of the Official Secrets Act, or whatever Act, where a law has been broken. Can you quote in plain English or as Gaeilige instead of the usual rant that you must be a Free State voting FFG voter. I would just like to see what part of the Act was contravened, because based on my reading I did not see anything that would hold up in court. And besides, as I've said the Official Secrets Act is a classic example of the toxic Free State culture you like to rail against - a lethal combination of British legislation and the worst excesses of Fianna Fail that has been misused over the decades to slap confidential on literally anything.
Here's the village magazine's take on it. They are calling out the Irish Times.
https://twitter.com/VillageMagIRE/status/1371152775409729550
Who knows if it will even reach a court but the fact that it has got this far means there must be some substance in it. As incoming Mknister for Justice Heather Humphries's declaration yesterday that he did nothing wrong isn't helpful either
Can only conclude Village Magazine did not read full act for it defines Public Office - "does not include membership of either House of the Oireachtas." As I said it was written in such a way that members of government are exempt. Haughey himself said it was to put public officials on notice. But that did not mean government TDs.
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
Quote: Ruadhán Mac Aodháin, Solicitor, Prospect Law
Re: Whether the Official Secrets Act applies to Ministers and TDs?
Client: Ormond Quay Publishing Limited
Date: 3rd November 2020
From: Diarmuid Rossa Phelan SC
Thank you for your instructions of last night raising the above question to be answered by noon today. The short answer is that there is no exclusion in the Official Secrets Act, 1963, to the person prohibited from communicating official information by virtue of the person's status simpliciter as Minister or member of the Oireachtas.
Whether the prohibition on the disclosure of official information falls within Section 4 of the Act applies depends on whether the information is "official information" within the meaning of Section 2(1) of the Act and if so whether it is excepted.
Official information includes a document
which is confidential or expressed to be confidential, and
which is or has been in the possession custody or control of a holder of public office or to which the holder of public office has or had access, where such control or access is by virtue of the public office holder's office.
Public office includes an office or employment which is wholly remunerated out of the Central Fund or out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, but does not include membership of either House of the Oireachtas. Therefore information does not become official information by virtue of it being in the possession etc. of a member of the Oireachtas. However, official information does not cease to be official information solely by virtue of the fact that it has come into the possession custody or control of or accessed by a member of the Oireachtas, or indeed any other person who is not a holder of public office as defined by the Act.
If the information falls within the definition of official information, the prohibition on disclosure of official information applies to a person without qualification or exclusion de ratione personae. However the communication by any person may nonetheless be excepted from prohibition, not because of status for example as member of the Oireachtas or Minister, but if the disclosing person either
is duly authorised to communicate the official information – "duly authorised" here means (S.4(4)) authorised by a Minister or State authority or by some person authorised in that behalf by a Minister or State authority to communicate the official information, or
communicates the official information in the course of or in accordance with his or her duties as the holder of a public office (not including membership of the Oireachtas), or
when it is his or her duty in the interest of the State to communicate it.
https://villagemagazine.ie/senior-counsels-opinion-for-village-affirms-being-a-minister-does-not-exclude-you-from-the-obligations-of-the-official-secret-act/
So I would say you are somewhat clutching at things there.
Varadkar also threatened to sue when the story was broken by Village as they said he broke the law. Varadkar has never made any efforts to follow up on that empty threat as he has no case.
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:29:36 PM
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
No, thank God. No but I clicked on tweet above where Village Mag wrote: "The Official Secrets Acts makes it an offence for "a public official" to leak documents of a sensitive nature."
I then pointed out if they read the full act, they would have read that public officials excludes both houses of the Oireachtas. This can easily be verified if you go to the statute books and read the Interpretation of titles:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/1/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Am I wrong?
BTW, I agree with you that he is more likely to have broken the Corruption Act of 2018 by conferring an advantage. But that advantage would need to be proved. He was certainly not getting a better pay agreement than other Union, and as he was already President of rival Union, it was not helping him climb the Union ladder. But you are definitely warmer on that one.
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:29:36 PM
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
No, thank God. No but I clicked on tweet above where Village Mag wrote: "The Official Secrets Acts makes it an offence for "a public official" to leak documents of a sensitive nature."
I then pointed out if they read the full act, they would have read that public officials excludes both houses of the Oireachtas. This can easily be verified if you go to the statute books and read the Interpretation of titles:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/1/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Am I wrong?
BTW, I agree with you that he is more likely to have broken the Corruption Act of 2018 by conferring an advantage. But that advantage would need to be proved. He was certainly not getting a better pay agreement than other Union, and as he was already President of rival Union, it was not helping him climb the Union ladder. But you are definitely warmer on that one.
So you're disputing the professional legal opinion of a Senior Counsel who says that is a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
What he was doing was pulling a stroke for his friend.
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:53:30 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:29:36 PM
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
No, thank God. No but I clicked on tweet above where Village Mag wrote: "The Official Secrets Acts makes it an offence for "a public official" to leak documents of a sensitive nature."
I then pointed out if they read the full act, they would have read that public officials excludes both houses of the Oireachtas. This can easily be verified if you go to the statute books and read the Interpretation of titles:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/1/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Am I wrong?
BTW, I agree with you that he is more likely to have broken the Corruption Act of 2018 by conferring an advantage. But that advantage would need to be proved. He was certainly not getting a better pay agreement than other Union, and as he was already President of rival Union, it was not helping him climb the Union ladder. But you are definitely warmer on that one.
So you're disputing the professional legal opinion of a Senior Counsel who says that is a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
What he was doing was pulling a stroke for his friend.
I read the article you shared and I saw nothing in there that proved a member of government was not exempt. Perhaps you can direct me to the relevant lines. But it was very stilted English. I might be a biteen slow and not smart man like solicitor.
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:53:30 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:29:36 PM
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
No, thank God. No but I clicked on tweet above where Village Mag wrote: "The Official Secrets Acts makes it an offence for "a public official" to leak documents of a sensitive nature."
I then pointed out if they read the full act, they would have read that public officials excludes both houses of the Oireachtas. This can easily be verified if you go to the statute books and read the Interpretation of titles:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/1/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Am I wrong?
BTW, I agree with you that he is more likely to have broken the Corruption Act of 2018 by conferring an advantage. But that advantage would need to be proved. He was certainly not getting a better pay agreement than other Union, and as he was already President of rival Union, it was not helping him climb the Union ladder. But you are definitely warmer on that one.
So you're disputing the professional legal opinion of a Senior Counsel who says that is a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
What he was doing was pulling a stroke for his friend.
I read the article you shared and I saw nothing in there that proved a member of government was not exempt. Perhaps you can direct me to the relevant lines. But it was very stilted English. I might be a biteen slow and not smart man like solicitor.
It was in the first paragraph.
The short answer is that there is no exclusion in the Official Secrets Act, 1963, to the person prohibited from communicating official information by virtue of the person's status simpliciter as Minister or member of the Oireachtas.
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:53:30 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:29:36 PM
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
No, thank God. No but I clicked on tweet above where Village Mag wrote: "The Official Secrets Acts makes it an offence for "a public official" to leak documents of a sensitive nature."
I then pointed out if they read the full act, they would have read that public officials excludes both houses of the Oireachtas. This can easily be verified if you go to the statute books and read the Interpretation of titles:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/1/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Am I wrong?
BTW, I agree with you that he is more likely to have broken the Corruption Act of 2018 by conferring an advantage. But that advantage would need to be proved. He was certainly not getting a better pay agreement than other Union, and as he was already President of rival Union, it was not helping him climb the Union ladder. But you are definitely warmer on that one.
So you're disputing the professional legal opinion of a Senior Counsel who says that is a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
What he was doing was pulling a stroke for his friend.
I read the article you shared and I saw nothing in there that proved a member of government was not exempt. Perhaps you can direct me to the relevant lines. But it was very stilted English. I might be a biteen slow and not smart man like solicitor.
It was in the first paragraph.
The short answer is that there is no exclusion in the Official Secrets Act, 1963, to the person prohibited from communicating official information by virtue of the person's status simpliciter as Minister or member of the Oireachtas.
And hopefully this is my final word. The Official Secret Acts states:
"A person shall not communicate any official information to any other person unless he is duly authorised to do so or does so in the course of and in accordance with his duties as the holder of a public office or when it is his duty in the interest of the State to communicate it.
In this section "duly authorised" means authorised by a Minister or State authority or by some person authorised in that behalf by a Minister or State authority.
"Minister" means a member of the Government;"
So if a Minister, which is a member of government per the Act, can authorise it - how could a Taoiseach, the most senior member of government, not authorise it?
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 11:23:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:53:30 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:29:36 PM
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
No, thank God. No but I clicked on tweet above where Village Mag wrote: "The Official Secrets Acts makes it an offence for "a public official" to leak documents of a sensitive nature."
I then pointed out if they read the full act, they would have read that public officials excludes both houses of the Oireachtas. This can easily be verified if you go to the statute books and read the Interpretation of titles:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/1/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Am I wrong?
BTW, I agree with you that he is more likely to have broken the Corruption Act of 2018 by conferring an advantage. But that advantage would need to be proved. He was certainly not getting a better pay agreement than other Union, and as he was already President of rival Union, it was not helping him climb the Union ladder. But you are definitely warmer on that one.
So you're disputing the professional legal opinion of a Senior Counsel who says that is a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
What he was doing was pulling a stroke for his friend.
I read the article you shared and I saw nothing in there that proved a member of government was not exempt. Perhaps you can direct me to the relevant lines. But it was very stilted English. I might be a biteen slow and not smart man like solicitor.
It was in the first paragraph.
The short answer is that there is no exclusion in the Official Secrets Act, 1963, to the person prohibited from communicating official information by virtue of the person's status simpliciter as Minister or member of the Oireachtas.
And hopefully this is my final word. The Official Secret Acts states:
"A person shall not communicate any official information to any other person unless he is duly authorised to do so or does so in the course of and in accordance with his duties as the holder of a public office or when it is his duty in the interest of the State to communicate it.
In this section "duly authorised" means authorised by a Minister or State authority or by some person authorised in that behalf by a Minister or State authority.
"Minister" means a member of the Government;"
So if a Minister, which is a member of government per the Act, can authorise it - how could a Taoiseach, the most senior member of government, not authorise it?
Yes and you are disagreeing with the professional opinion of a senior counsel who says in his legal opinion there is no basis for it.
You're also ignoring the fact that the line minister for health had no idea what Varadkar was doing, was trying to get the document himself but could not get it and Varadkar went behind his back to leak it.
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 11:23:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 11:08:50 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:53:30 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 15, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 15, 2021, 10:29:36 PM
Are you a solicitor?
I doubt the Village Magazine did not read the act. Michael Smith is their editor, think he is a barrister himself I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Smith_(Irish_journalist)
The Village Magazine also have sought legal advice and published it on numerous ocassions.
No, thank God. No but I clicked on tweet above where Village Mag wrote: "The Official Secrets Acts makes it an offence for "a public official" to leak documents of a sensitive nature."
I then pointed out if they read the full act, they would have read that public officials excludes both houses of the Oireachtas. This can easily be verified if you go to the statute books and read the Interpretation of titles:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/act/1/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Am I wrong?
BTW, I agree with you that he is more likely to have broken the Corruption Act of 2018 by conferring an advantage. But that advantage would need to be proved. He was certainly not getting a better pay agreement than other Union, and as he was already President of rival Union, it was not helping him climb the Union ladder. But you are definitely warmer on that one.
So you're disputing the professional legal opinion of a Senior Counsel who says that is a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
What he was doing was pulling a stroke for his friend.
I read the article you shared and I saw nothing in there that proved a member of government was not exempt. Perhaps you can direct me to the relevant lines. But it was very stilted English. I might be a biteen slow and not smart man like solicitor.
It was in the first paragraph.
The short answer is that there is no exclusion in the Official Secrets Act, 1963, to the person prohibited from communicating official information by virtue of the person's status simpliciter as Minister or member of the Oireachtas.
And hopefully this is my final word. The Official Secret Acts states:
"A person shall not communicate any official information to any other person unless he is duly authorised to do so or does so in the course of and in accordance with his duties as the holder of a public office or when it is his duty in the interest of the State to communicate it.
In this section "duly authorised" means authorised by a Minister or State authority or by some person authorised in that behalf by a Minister or State authority.
"Minister" means a member of the Government;"
So if a Minister, which is a member of government per the Act, can authorise it - how could a Taoiseach, the most senior member of government, not authorise it?
Because he didn't officially do it and tried to cover his tracks.
Just because he was Taoiseach doesn't mean he did what he did in furtherance of Taoiseach duties
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/0315/1204103-ireland-politics/
As expected the Bus driver's son gave short shrift to that
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/0316/1204292-martin-and-mcdonald/
"Taoiseach Micheál Martin has "no intention" of replying to the Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald's request for a meeting"
He must have a thing about not replying to letters asking for a meeting. Only a few weeks ago, it was revealed he didn't reply to a letter from a victims group from the north asking to meet him either. Seems he mistakenly thought the group only represented victims of collusion, and sure as victims go, what use have they ever been to FFG?
Martin further exposing himself as the most pathetic and weakest leader in his party's history. He has even had own elements of his party coming out and saying Varadkar has to go.
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 12:40:50 PM
"Taoiseach Micheál Martin has "no intention" of replying to the Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald's request for a meeting"
He must have a thing about not replying to lettersasking for a meeting. Only a few weeks ago, it was revealed he didn't reply to a letter from a victims group from the north asking to meet him either. Seems he mistakenly thought the group only represented victims of collusion, and sure as victims go, what use have they ever been to FFG?
He's a pathetic guttersnipe politician. His comments on the Troubles victims just shows the utter contempt FFG have for northern nationalists. For me the feeling is mutual though, Martin and Varadkar for me represent the lowest of the low.
What amazes me is Martin is a man who took bungs off property developers, lied his arse off in a tribunal and none of his media friends ever seem to want to drag that past up.
Just listening back to Pat Kenny's hard hitting interview with Varadkar this morning. So far he's been asked:
- How he's feeling (yeah, seriously)
- If there even is a criminal investigation ongoing because the only reports about this have been media reports.
Followed by a softball question about Mary Lou giving Leo a chance to go on an entirely uninterrupted rant about SF and Bobby Storey's funeral.
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 01:05:09 PM
Just listening back to Pat Kenny's hard hitting interview with Varadkar this morning. So far he's been asked:
- How he's feeling (yeah, seriously)
- If there even is a criminal investigation ongoing because the only reports about this have been media reports.
Followed by a softball question about Mary Lou giving Leo a chance to go on an entirely uninterrupted rant about SF and Bobby Storey's funeral.
This funeral is continously brought up yet Golf gate is brushed under the carpet. I wonder how that garda investigation is going? 🙄🙄
Quote from: macker15 on March 16, 2021, 01:41:15 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 01:05:09 PM
Just listening back to Pat Kenny's hard hitting interview with Varadkar this morning. So far he's been asked:
- How he's feeling (yeah, seriously)
- If there even is a criminal investigation ongoing because the only reports about this have been media reports.
Followed by a softball question about Mary Lou giving Leo a chance to go on an entirely uninterrupted rant about SF and Bobby Storey's funeral.
This funeral is continously brought up yet Golf gate is brushed under the carpet. I wonder how that garda investigation is going? 🙄🙄
Little equivalence is made to the Garda funeral in Mayo which had every bit as many breaches as the Bobby Storey funeral and had the Minister for Justice at the time and Head of the Gardai there too.
Now if you can find me references from politicians to the Garda funeral and breaches I'd like to see them.
https://villagemagazine.ie/its-a-crime/
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 12:45:11 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 12:40:50 PM
"Taoiseach Micheál Martin has "no intention" of replying to the Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald's request for a meeting"
He must have a thing about not replying to lettersasking for a meeting. Only a few weeks ago, it was revealed he didn't reply to a letter from a victims group from the north asking to meet him either. Seems he mistakenly thought the group only represented victims of collusion, and sure as victims go, what use have they ever been to FFG?
He's a pathetic guttersnipe politician. His comments on the Troubles victims just shows the utter contempt FFG have for northern nationalists. For me the feeling is mutual though, Martin and Varadkar for me represent the lowest of the low.
What amazes me is Martin is a man who took bungs off property developers, lied his arse off in a tribunal and none of his media friends ever seem to want to drag that past up.
Martin is the worst Taoiseach we have ever had, I genuinely mean that. There is nothing to the man. He stands for nothing. You can be at different sides and admire the single mindedness of your opponent but in the case of Martin, there is nothing to admire.
Did Sinn Fein request ministers step aside during the Cash for Ash inquiry?
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on March 16, 2021, 02:22:59 PM
Did Sinn Fein request ministers step aside during the Cash for Ash inquiry?
Yes and famously tried to get Arlene to step aside. When she faced them down they collapsed Stormont and famously said no return to the Status Quo. Irish language Act anois etc etc. Basically a whole load of shite and then returned to Stormont with Arlene as FM and of course no ILA.
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Quote from: trailer on March 16, 2021, 02:33:03 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on March 16, 2021, 02:22:59 PM
Did Sinn Fein request ministers step aside during the Cash for Ash inquiry?
Yes and famously tried to get Arlene to step aside. When she faced them down they collapsed Stormont and famously said no return to the Status Quo. Irish language Act anois etc etc. Basically a whole load of shite and then returned to Stormont with Arlene as FM and of course no ILA.
Bizarre contributions from two posters on a thread about Leo Varakdar stepping down.
It seems some posters can't speak objectively on matters.
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have
zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of
any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
The Sinn Fein Constitution Rule 1.1 specifically states: "We reserve the right to have one standard for ourselves but apply an entirely different standard to everybody else, and feel no shame whatsoever about that"
So the SF bashers are intent on spamming up a thread not about SF about SF.
I'm at pains to say it here but we already have a 520 page thread for SF bashing, do we really need the same tiresome bores to hijack every thread with their dimwitted nonsense?
Quote from: trailer on March 16, 2021, 02:33:03 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on March 16, 2021, 02:22:59 PM
Did Sinn Fein request ministers step aside during the Cash for Ash inquiry?
Yes and famously tried to get Arlene to step aside. When she faced them down they collapsed Stormont and famously said no return to the Status Quo. Irish language Act anois etc etc. Basically a whole load of shite and then returned to Stormont with Arlene as FM and of course no ILA.
the SDLP also asked for Arlene to step aside as did the Alliance at that time. But as they were outside the tent pissing in no one paid attention.
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
You accused me of being "into dead children" and totally fabricated an accusation against another poster that he accused you of child rape. You are sub-human and I don't wish to engage in any form of debate with you.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
It explains a lot
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
I answered a f**king question.
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
It explains a lot
In what way?
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
It explains a lot
In what way?
The use of the word "my" ;)
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:44:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
It explains a lot
In what way?
The use of the word "my" ;)
Do expand, you're being very cryptic, you seem a bit scared of clarity about exactly what you mean
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:44:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
It explains a lot
In what way?
The use of the word "my" ;)
Do expand, you're being very cryptic, you seem a bit scared of clarity about exactly what you mean
"my local drug dealer" would suggest he (or she, don't want to be too sexist) is your drug dealer.
my (from a dictionary)
determiner; of or belonging to me (= the speaker or writer):
Freudian slip ;D
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:58:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:44:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
It explains a lot
In what way?
The use of the word "my" ;)
Do expand, you're being very cryptic, you seem a bit scared of clarity about exactly what you mean
"my local drug dealer" would suggest he (or she, don't want to be too sexist) is your drug dealer.
my (from a dictionary)
determiner; of or belonging to me (= the speaker or writer):
Freudian slip ;D
So are you saying I'm a user of illegal drugs?
I can tell you where my local rugby club is but I'm not a member, nor do I attend matches
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
No, it definitely was
Because SF supporters are in favour of a party of with a long history of criminality and brass neckery and thus have no moral authority whatsoever to speak on the Varadkar issue
That cannot be repeated enough
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 04:03:50 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:58:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:44:50 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
It explains a lot
In what way?
The use of the word "my" ;)
Do expand, you're being very cryptic, you seem a bit scared of clarity about exactly what you mean
"my local drug dealer" would suggest he (or she, don't want to be too sexist) is your drug dealer.
my (from a dictionary)
determiner; of or belonging to me (= the speaker or writer):
Freudian slip ;D
So are you saying I'm a user of illegal drugs?
I can tell you where my local rugby club is but I'm not a member, nor do I attend matches
I'd suggest you use "the" instead of "my then
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
The Gardai have decided to pursue a criminal investigation against him.
Odd how you only want to discuss another political party and not the issue at play.
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
The Gardai have decided to pursue a criminal investigation against him.
Odd how you only want to discuss another political party and not the issue at play.
Gerry Adams and Michelle O'Neill were under criminal investigation and SF refused to stand them aside
Nowhere on this forum have I seen you or any other Sinn Fein supporter say they should have stood aside
In fact everything from yis and Sinn Fein supporters elsewhere online points to the opposite - that you supported them refusing to stand aside
Therefore your opinions as regards Vardakar are totally worthless because it's clear you only have a football team view of politics and have no moral or ethical standards
You're purely a propaganda shill for Sinn Fein
And that's something which is common to most online Sinn Fein supporters - they can't debate honestly, they can only propagandise
Vincent Browne exposed SF's hypocrisy yesterday
Put the cat among the pigeons beautifully
He's a fierce rogue
Imagine if every poster decided to spam this board and every thread with their political prejudices like a cohort of posters are here.
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.
This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.
I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again
Sinn Féin did go berserk on the subject yesterday (incl starting a thread here) months after the story first broke and months after Varadkar gave his response in the Dáil.
Most non Shinners suspect it was to obscure their differing policies on abortion in the 6 and 26.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 04:18:50 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
No, it definitely was
Because SF supporters are in favour of a party of with a long history of criminality and brass neckery and thus have no moral authority whatsoever to speak on the Varadkar issue
That cannot be repeated enough
If definitely wasn't. The question was nothing to do with SF so bringing them up was not required in your answer
Quote from: Rossfan on March 16, 2021, 04:57:52 PM
Sinn Féin did go berserk on the subject yesterday (incl starting a thread here) months after the story first broke and months after Varadkar gave his response in the Dáil.
Most non Shinners suspect it was to obscure their differing policies on abortion in the 6 and 26.
I had no idea SF posted on this board. Learn something new everyday I guess.
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.
This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.
I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again
Mary Lou was on national radio this morning demanding Leo resign. I've no idea if Paul Murphy, the Social Democrats or the Labour Party think he should resign as I didn't hear or see anything from them in the media in recent days.
Now if you think Mary Lou went on national radio specifically to say Leo should resign in her own personal capacity and not as the leader of SF you can't expect anyone to believe that.
I suppose one way SF can deny accusations of hypocrisy is to deny all knowledge or claim it never happened.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-needs-go-mary-23724545
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/mary-lou-mcdonald-calls-for-leo-varadkar-to-resign
The trolls are desperate to help highjack a thread on the Tanaiste bring under criminal investigation into a SF bashing exercise. There is a dedicated thread with 520 pages plus for SF bashing. I don't we need every thread brought down a rabbit hole of SF bashing.
Quote from: trailer on March 16, 2021, 03:38:29 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
I answered a f**king question.
Sorry I dont follow?
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.
As suggested, let's keep all Sinn Fein comments on the "Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know." thread.
Posts not complying will be pulled.
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.
Village magazine's line is backed up by a senior counsel though. Their editor is lawyer as far as I know. So I think they are probably in a much stronger position to argue that case than you or I.
Poor judgement doesn't come to it. The Minister for Health couldn't even get his hand on the contract at the time Varadkar was leaking, the contract had not been agreed, Varadkar clarified in his messages to his friend that it was subject to amendment and not to take it as gospel, watermarked at the front was "confidential, not for circulation".
All those matters would seem to contradict your viewpoint.
Then there is the matter of Varadkar deleting the Whatsapp messages he was obliged to keep under FOI purposes. What person deletes Whatsapp messages and conversations? What kind of motivation would you need to do so for that - particularly when there was a legal requirement for him to keep them in line with his role.
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.
This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.
I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again
Mary Lou was on national radio this morning demanding Leo resign. I've no idea if Paul Murphy, the Social Democrats or the Labour Party think he should resign as I didn't hear or see anything from them in the media in recent days.
Now if you think Mary Lou went on national radio specifically to say Leo should resign in her own personal capacity and not as the leader of SF you can't expect anyone to believe that.
I suppose one way SF can deny accusations of hypocrisy is to deny all knowledge or claim it never happened.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-needs-go-mary-23724545
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/mary-lou-mcdonald-calls-for-leo-varadkar-to-resign
And this thread started long before Mary Lou went on the radio so you'll have to try harder to twist the story. For what its worth I didn't support SFs vote of no confidence in November but I did think that Varadkar should have stepped aside back then. If anything the case for that is now stronger given that this has been upgraded to a criminal investigation. That SF and other parties are seeking to gain political gain is irrelevant. That's was opposition do and frankly its what they are expected to do so i'm not interested in that noise.
The self proclaimed party of law and order have been found badly wanting. Back after the banking crisis they were promising to clean irish politics up. Then they got behind the wheel and it didn't take long for them to become as bad as FF ever were.
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
I don't think Leo should stand aside. If the DPP decide to press charges then that's a different story. I also don't think Michelle O'Neill should have stood down either.
It's the total hypocrisy of SF who backed MON in the North but are demanding Leo resign that I find infuriating. You can understand that can't you?
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
I don't think Leo should stand aside. If the DPP decide to press charges then that's a different story. I also don't think Michelle O'Neill should have stood down either.
It's the total hypocrisy of SF who backed MON in the North but are demanding Leo resign that I find infuriating. You can understand that can't you?
Yes I can understand it but it is tiresome when every thread resorts to what SF did at some earlier time.
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
I don't think Leo should stand aside. If the DPP decide to press charges then that's a different story. I also don't think Michelle O'Neill should have stood down either.
It's the total hypocrisy of SF who backed MON in the North but are demanding Leo resign that I find infuriating. You can understand that can't you?
There's a massive difference. Leo was caught red handed. Photos, text messages the lot. The timeline doesn't work. His excuse doesn't work. The dogs in the street know his excuse his rubbish but for whatever reason that I can't honestly understand he is allowed to stay in his position. You don't need to look at SF to draw comparisons. Francis Fitzgerald was forced out of Justice for a lot less. Alan Shatter, another FG minsters was forced out for less (admittedly that happened under Kenny). There was no Garda investigation into those never mind a DPP intervention. FF lost 2 agriculture ministers last year for less. Again no need to wait for the DPP.
By his own admission Leo leaked a confidential document. Why is he not held to the same standards as all the others listed above ?
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
And a coverup.
The one thing that was notable in the vote of confidence in Varadkar was that FG turned the whole thing into a mud slinging contest at SF. This is the kind of political discourse (or lack of) FG engage in.
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
I don't think Leo should stand aside. If the DPP decide to press charges then that's a different story. I also don't think Michelle O'Neill should have stood down either.
It's the total hypocrisy of SF who backed MON in the North but are demanding Leo resign that I find infuriating. You can understand that can't you?
There's a massive difference. Leo was caught red handed. Photos, text messages the lot. The timeline doesn't work. His excuse doesn't work. The dogs in the street know his excuse his rubbish but for whatever reason that I can't honestly understand he is allowed to stay in his position. You don't need to look at SF to draw comparisons. Francis Fitzgerald was forced out of Justice for a lot less. Alan Shatter, another FG minsters was forced out for less (admittedly that happened under Kenny). There was no Garda investigation into those never mind a DPP intervention. FF lost 2 agriculture ministers last year for less. Again no need to wait for the DPP.
By his own admission Leo leaked a confidential document. Why is he not held to the same standards as all the others listed above ?
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
I don't think Leo should stand aside. If the DPP decide to press charges then that's a different story. I also don't think Michelle O'Neill should have stood down either.
It's the total hypocrisy of SF who backed MON in the North but are demanding Leo resign that I find infuriating. You can understand that can't you?
There's a massive difference. Leo was caught red handed. Photos, text messages the lot. The timeline doesn't work. His excuse doesn't work. The dogs in the street know his excuse his rubbish but for whatever reason that I can't honestly understand he is allowed to stay in his position. You don't need to look at SF to draw comparisons. Francis Fitzgerald was forced out of Justice for a lot less. Alan Shatter, another FG minsters was forced out for less (admittedly that happened under Kenny). There was no Garda investigation into those never mind a DPP intervention. FF lost 2 agriculture ministers last year for less. Again no need to wait for the DPP.
By his own admission Leo leaked a confidential document. Why is he not held to the same standards as all the others listed above ?
Clearly SF supporters see things differently. I think what SF did in the North around the height of Covid was a serious threat to peoples health and well being and far worse. It'll probably work out in Leos favor ironically the SF calls for him to resign as the DPP are unlikely to go ahead with any prosecution based on the difficulty of proving the case.
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 08:27:36 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.
This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.
I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again
Mary Lou was on national radio this morning demanding Leo resign. I've no idea if Paul Murphy, the Social Democrats or the Labour Party think he should resign as I didn't hear or see anything from them in the media in recent days.
Now if you think Mary Lou went on national radio specifically to say Leo should resign in her own personal capacity and not as the leader of SF you can't expect anyone to believe that.
I suppose one way SF can deny accusations of hypocrisy is to deny all knowledge or claim it never happened.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-needs-go-mary-23724545
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/mary-lou-mcdonald-calls-for-leo-varadkar-to-resign
And this thread started long before Mary Lou went on the radio so you'll have to try harder to twist the story. For what its worth I didn't support SFs vote of no confidence in November but I did think that Varadkar should have stepped aside back then. If anything the case for that is now stronger given that this has been upgraded to a criminal investigation. That SF and other parties are seeking to gain political gain is irrelevant. That's was opposition do and frankly its what they are expected to do so i'm not interested in that noise.
The self proclaimed party of law and order have been found badly wanting. Back after the banking crisis they were promising to clean irish politics up. Then they got behind the wheel and it didn't take long for them to become as bad as FF ever were.
Actually the Irish governments over the last decade are widely looked upon abroad as a rare beacon of common sense in a sea of populist lunacy internationally
Very far from perfect for sure but up until the pandemic, under any reasonable analysis you'd have to say they did a pretty decent job overall of stabilising the country and giving it a decent platform to thrive, while helping to advance major reform of social policy
And I've never voted FG in me life, and never will
Meanwhile Sinn Fein supporters are on here literally boasting about the party trying to run Northern Ireland and its society into the ground
Given the calibre of poster who supports Sinn Fein here, you'd have to say NI has the government it deserves
The mindset of the SF supporter is that they genuinely believe that they could waltz into the Dail in the morning and fixing everything would be a piece of cake
Reminds me of Homer Simpson running for sanitation commissioner
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.
Village magazine's line is backed up by a senior counsel though.
I still have not been able to make sense of the solicitors argument. And I hate to point out that I think he was a SF candidate, because I don't want to be accused of the SF word. He seems to be saying that if official information worked on by a public official is confidential (eg the draft pay agreement), when it gets into the hands of a member of government (eg Leo), it remains confidential, and thus Leo is not exempt from OSA. That seems a good argument except for one fact - a public official is not authorised to share confidential information unless authorised by a Minister (eg Member of Govt) or State Authority (eg Attorney General); a Minister (ie a member of Government per Act), is authorised. So the official information is passing into the hands of someone who is not authorised, to the hands of someone who is authorised. The Village solicitor is making the claim that it carries its confidentiality as it passes hands from a public official to a Minister. Is that what he is saying? If so, I think it's interesting logic but flawed logic.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 08:52:15 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 08:27:36 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.
This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.
I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again
Mary Lou was on national radio this morning demanding Leo resign. I've no idea if Paul Murphy, the Social Democrats or the Labour Party think he should resign as I didn't hear or see anything from them in the media in recent days.
Now if you think Mary Lou went on national radio specifically to say Leo should resign in her own personal capacity and not as the leader of SF you can't expect anyone to believe that.
I suppose one way SF can deny accusations of hypocrisy is to deny all knowledge or claim it never happened.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-needs-go-mary-23724545
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/mary-lou-mcdonald-calls-for-leo-varadkar-to-resign
And this thread started long before Mary Lou went on the radio so you'll have to try harder to twist the story. For what its worth I didn't support SFs vote of no confidence in November but I did think that Varadkar should have stepped aside back then. If anything the case for that is now stronger given that this has been upgraded to a criminal investigation. That SF and other parties are seeking to gain political gain is irrelevant. That's was opposition do and frankly its what they are expected to do so i'm not interested in that noise.
The self proclaimed party of law and order have been found badly wanting. Back after the banking crisis they were promising to clean irish politics up. Then they got behind the wheel and it didn't take long for them to become as bad as FF ever were.
Actually the Irish governments over the last decade are widely looked upon abroad as a rare beacon of common sense in a sea of populist lunacy internationally
Very far from perfect for sure but up until the pandemic, under any reasonable analysis you'd have to say they did a pretty decent job overall of stabilising the country and giving it a decent platform to thrive, while helping to advance major reform of social policy
And I've never voted FG in me life, and never will
Meanwhile Sinn Fein supporters are on here literally boasting about the party trying to run Northern Ireland and its society into the ground
Given the calibre of poster who supports Sinn Fein here, you'd have to say NI has the government it deserves
The mindset of the SF supporter is that they genuinely believe that they could waltz into the Dail in the morning and fixing everything would be a piece of cake
Reminds me of Homer Simpson running for sanitation commissioner
And i probably wont be popular for admitting it but I have voted FG on more than one occasion. I wouldn't dream of voting for them under Varadkar though as in my opinion he has set them back years with his populist nonsense, constant undermining of FF and social media antics. Coveney, as shown in his strong work on Brexit, would have been a much better choice but the ship has probably sailed for him now.
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 08:57:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.
Village magazine's line is backed up by a senior counsel though.
I still have not been able to make sense of the solicitors argument. And I hate to point out that I think he was a SF candidate, because I don't want to be accused of the SF word. He seems to be saying that if official information worked on by a public official is confidential (eg the draft pay agreement), when it gets into the hands of a member of government (eg Leo), it remains confidential, and thus Leo is not exempt from OSA. That seems a good argument except for one fact - a public official is not authorised to share confidential information unless authorised by a Minister (eg Member of Govt) or State Authority (eg Attorney General); a Minister (ie a member of Government per Act), is authorised. So the official information is passing into the hands of someone who is not authorised, to the hands of someone who is authorised. The Village solicitor is making the claim that it carries its confidentiality as it passes hands from a public official to a Minister. Is that what he is saying? If so, I think it's interesting logic but flawed logic.
Surely you can't authorise yourself ?
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 08:52:15 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 08:27:36 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.
This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.
I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again
Mary Lou was on national radio this morning demanding Leo resign. I've no idea if Paul Murphy, the Social Democrats or the Labour Party think he should resign as I didn't hear or see anything from them in the media in recent days.
Now if you think Mary Lou went on national radio specifically to say Leo should resign in her own personal capacity and not as the leader of SF you can't expect anyone to believe that.
I suppose one way SF can deny accusations of hypocrisy is to deny all knowledge or claim it never happened.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-needs-go-mary-23724545
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/mary-lou-mcdonald-calls-for-leo-varadkar-to-resign
And this thread started long before Mary Lou went on the radio so you'll have to try harder to twist the story. For what its worth I didn't support SFs vote of no confidence in November but I did think that Varadkar should have stepped aside back then. If anything the case for that is now stronger given that this has been upgraded to a criminal investigation. That SF and other parties are seeking to gain political gain is irrelevant. That's was opposition do and frankly its what they are expected to do so i'm not interested in that noise.
The self proclaimed party of law and order have been found badly wanting. Back after the banking crisis they were promising to clean irish politics up. Then they got behind the wheel and it didn't take long for them to become as bad as FF ever were.
Actually the Irish governments over the last decade are widely looked upon abroad as a rare beacon of common sense in a sea of populist lunacy internationally
Very far from perfect for sure but up until the pandemic, under any reasonable analysis you'd have to say they did a pretty decent job overall of stabilising the country and giving it a decent platform to thrive, while helping to advance major reform of social policy
And I've never voted FG in me life, and never will
Meanwhile Sinn Fein supporters are on here literally boasting about the party trying to run Northern Ireland and its society into the ground
Given the calibre of poster who supports Sinn Fein here, you'd have to say NI has the government it deserves
The mindset of the SF supporter is that they genuinely believe that they could waltz into the Dail in the morning and fixing everything would be a piece of cake
Reminds me of Homer Simpson running for sanitation commissioner
And i probably wont be popular for admitting it but I have voted FG on more than one occasion. I wouldn't dream of voting for them under Varadkar though as in my opinion he has set them back years with his populist nonsense, constant undermining of FF and social media antics. Coveney, as shown in his strong work on Brexit, would have been a much better choice but the ship has probably sailed for him now.
Fine Gael/Labour has usually worked well enough - though I'd much prefer Labour/Fine Gael/Green
For a long time Vincent Browne talked about a Fine Gael/Sinn Fein coalition - part of me would like to see it happen - that would be a real case of senior hurling for Sinn Fein
As it is they're playing Junior D
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:06:36 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 08:52:15 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 08:27:36 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 16, 2021, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Why should anybody forget about Sinn Fein now when any time the PIRA are brought up you bring up the old IRA?
Shinners created these rules
Don't complain about the rules - you created them
SF and SF supporters like you have zero moral authority to complain about the misdeeds of any other politicians because SF for years has been about corruption and murder
Whatever has gone on in FF and FG for decades, SF are far, far worse
Because this issue has nothing to do with SF and despite some us of trying to redirect you and others to the 520 page SF bashing thread you and your buddies just keep coming back.
SF aren't speaking for me when they are calling for his resignation. I'm speaking for myself any only for myself when I say that he should step aside. I'm not asking for him to give up his seat or anything like that but rather I'm simply saying that while he is under criminal investigation for leaking a document (which he admits leaking) then it is completely inappropriate for him to hold the office of Tainiste or any other Ministerial job.
The thread title is "Should Leo stand down until investigation complete?"
In a word... Yes
It's a fair enough opinion to believe Varadkar should stand aside, taken alone on the merits of the case
The point is, it's would be a totally ludicrous opinion for any SF supporter to believe Varadkar should stand aside after denying that O'Neill and Adams should stand aside when they were under criminal investigation
And that's the view SF supporters here seem to hold
So that total hypocrisy naturally becomes a focus of discussion
SF supporters continually defend SF by invoking things which are nothing to do with SF
They are the masters of illegitimate and trolling whataboutery
But bringing up Adams and O'Neill's refusal to stand aside when under criminal investigation is perfectly legitimate - it is to demonstrate that SF have no moral standards
The thing is that the more SF whine about this, the more they are actually driving public sympathy for Varadkar from a place where he might not have had it
SF's interventions very much help Varadkar in the court of public opinion
Nothing more was needed after the first sentence
That would be the case if any party or political group made the claim and not SF. The very fact it was SF is what makes the rest of the post relevant
Oh FFS. How many times has this to be explained. You just can't help yourself.
This has nothing to do with SF. This is Chay Bowe's story which the Village Magazine ran with. SF or (indeed any other political party) had nothing to do with it so I've no idea what you mean by "made the claim". SF have the same relevance to the story as Paul Murphy or anyone in the Social Democrats or the Labour party has, i.e. none.
I think i'll bow out. Reminder to self: never try to moderate on a forum again
Mary Lou was on national radio this morning demanding Leo resign. I've no idea if Paul Murphy, the Social Democrats or the Labour Party think he should resign as I didn't hear or see anything from them in the media in recent days.
Now if you think Mary Lou went on national radio specifically to say Leo should resign in her own personal capacity and not as the leader of SF you can't expect anyone to believe that.
I suppose one way SF can deny accusations of hypocrisy is to deny all knowledge or claim it never happened.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-needs-go-mary-23724545
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/mary-lou-mcdonald-calls-for-leo-varadkar-to-resign
And this thread started long before Mary Lou went on the radio so you'll have to try harder to twist the story. For what its worth I didn't support SFs vote of no confidence in November but I did think that Varadkar should have stepped aside back then. If anything the case for that is now stronger given that this has been upgraded to a criminal investigation. That SF and other parties are seeking to gain political gain is irrelevant. That's was opposition do and frankly its what they are expected to do so i'm not interested in that noise.
The self proclaimed party of law and order have been found badly wanting. Back after the banking crisis they were promising to clean irish politics up. Then they got behind the wheel and it didn't take long for them to become as bad as FF ever were.
Actually the Irish governments over the last decade are widely looked upon abroad as a rare beacon of common sense in a sea of populist lunacy internationally
Very far from perfect for sure but up until the pandemic, under any reasonable analysis you'd have to say they did a pretty decent job overall of stabilising the country and giving it a decent platform to thrive, while helping to advance major reform of social policy
And I've never voted FG in me life, and never will
Meanwhile Sinn Fein supporters are on here literally boasting about the party trying to run Northern Ireland and its society into the ground
Given the calibre of poster who supports Sinn Fein here, you'd have to say NI has the government it deserves
The mindset of the SF supporter is that they genuinely believe that they could waltz into the Dail in the morning and fixing everything would be a piece of cake
Reminds me of Homer Simpson running for sanitation commissioner
And i probably wont be popular for admitting it but I have voted FG on more than one occasion. I wouldn't dream of voting for them under Varadkar though as in my opinion he has set them back years with his populist nonsense, constant undermining of FF and social media antics. Coveney, as shown in his strong work on Brexit, would have been a much better choice but the ship has probably sailed for him now.
Fine Gael/Labour has usually worked well enough - though I'd much prefer Labour/Fine Gael/Green
For a long time Vincent Browne talked about a Fine Gael/Sinn Fein coalition - part of me would like to see it happen - that would be a real case of senior hurling for Sinn Fein
As it is they're playing Junior D
Looking way ahead I'd hate that. We badly need a clear choice and if that's FG as the main party on one side and SF the main party on the other then fine. If you don't want to vote for one of them then find out who the others will align with in coalition and pick your poison so to speak.
I do think its time for SF to be in government too - we've spent 100 years rinsing and repeating. There are some areas that need a fresh approach (e.g. housing and education).
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 08:57:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.
Village magazine's line is backed up by a senior counsel though.
I still have not been able to make sense of the solicitors argument. And I hate to point out that I think he was a SF candidate, because I don't want to be accused of the SF word. He seems to be saying that if official information worked on by a public official is confidential (eg the draft pay agreement), when it gets into the hands of a member of government (eg Leo), it remains confidential, and thus Leo is not exempt from OSA. That seems a good argument except for one fact - a public official is not authorised to share confidential information unless authorised by a Minister (eg Member of Govt) or State Authority (eg Attorney General); a Minister (ie a member of Government per Act), is authorised. So the official information is passing into the hands of someone who is not authorised, to the hands of someone who is authorised. The Village solicitor is making the claim that it carries its confidentiality as it passes hands from a public official to a Minister. Is that what he is saying? If so, I think it's interesting logic but flawed logic.
Surely you can't authorise yourself ?
It never explicitly states that a member of government needs authorisation from another member of government. Some earlier articles (including Village) jumped to the conclusion that a Minister was a Line Minister, and Simon Harris needed to provide authorisation. But the Act is clear that a Minister is a member of government. And a Minister can authorise. I think that alone clears Varadkar, even if what he did was not best practice and showed him to be a poor team player with questionable judgement and people leadership skills.
The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.
Quote from: Louther on March 16, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.
Sure you can get a paid "expert" to tell you anything
You can find a scientist to say that global warming is a hoax
You can find a doctor to say that there's no link between smoking and cancer
You can also find doctors advocating for full opening up of society in the face of a murderous pandemic
We live in the age of the personal brand, of the "marketplace of ideas"
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: Louther on March 16, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.
Sure you can get a paid "expert" to tell you anything
You can find a scientist to say that global warming is a hoax
You can find a doctor to say that there's no link between smoking and cancer
You can also find doctors advocating for full opening up of society in the face of a murderous pandemic
We live in the age of the personal brand, of the "marketplace of ideas"
Leo's lack of legal action would suggest he couldn't.
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
Indeed.
Crossed my mind a while back this.
Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:52:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: Louther on March 16, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
The point that senior counsel backs the village or says XYZ is mute and not a point to hang your hat on. You will find another senior counsel who will see it the opposite and likely another couple who will see it completely different again. It's what's they do, argue points of law and take different positions. And get paid massive money for doing so but they not always right and one party will find themselves on the losing side.
Sure you can get a paid "expert" to tell you anything
You can find a scientist to say that global warming is a hoax
You can find a doctor to say that there's no link between smoking and cancer
You can also find doctors advocating for full opening up of society in the face of a murderous pandemic
We live in the age of the personal brand, of the "marketplace of ideas"
Leo's lack of legal action would suggest he couldn't.
Village Magazine called his bluff.
FG are very quick to try and intimidate any dissenters with legal action.
Jennifer Carroll McBotox was at it last night on RTE with Matt Carthy.
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
Indeed.
Crossed my mind a while back this.
Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Go on
Expand on that
What exactly are you saying
It's fierce cowardly to imply things and not back it up
Spell it out
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
Indeed.
Crossed my mind a while back this.
Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Go on
Expand on that
What exactly are you saying
It's fierce cowardly to imply things and not back it up
Spell it out
I've already done so a while back, not that clarification is required.
You actually replied to the post at the time.
Maybe you 'forgot'.
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:04:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 16, 2021, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
Cos he likes to paint himself as superior to SF? Cos MO'N wasn't the incoming Taoiseach? Cos she wasn't being investigated for corruption?
Varadkar is superior to SF
In terms of morals, ability, action, trustworthiness, accountability
That's not hard to be fair - so is my local drug dealer
Telling statement that one.
Indeed.
Crossed my mind a while back this.
Seen nothing in the interim to dissuade me of my original opinion.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Go on
Expand on that
What exactly are you saying
It's fierce cowardly to imply things and not back it up
Spell it out
I've already done so a while back, not that clarification is required.
You actually replied to the post at the time.
Maybe you 'forgot'.
You're avoiding the question
It seems you're implying that I'm addicted to illegal drugs - is this so?
Pretty poor form if so and really does sum up the calibre of person supporting SF here
Well done Columbo
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Well done Columbo
Just shows you up for what you are that your default reaction is to claim somebody disagrees with you is addicted to illegal drugs
You must lead a very sheltered life indeed given that entirely reasonable opinion offends you so much that you react in such a way
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 09:18:35 PM
Quote from: straightred on March 16, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 08:57:56 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 16, 2021, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: weareros on March 16, 2021, 07:01:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on March 16, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 16, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Trailer - try and forget about Sinn Fein for a minute
do YOU think that the Tanaiste should be allowed work in his role when he is under Garda investigation for leaking confidential information to his friend?
Michelle O'Neill didn't stand aside when under investigation and in fact refused to, so why should Leo?
It wasnt addressed to you but even so you tried to answer but couldn't get by the first line. Never mind.
My own opinion on this is when it goes to DPP, and if DPP thinks there is a case to answer, then he should step aside. But I think it's a bit extreme to ask a politician to step aside as Gardai investigate a complaint. Gardai can only investigate and send to DPP. They won't even be making a recommendation on whether charges need to be filed, just presenting the facts. The DPP will decide. Anyone who is following can see that there's no love lost between Tainiste and the gentleman who made the complaint. Likewise I think Village Magazine's reading of Official Secrets Act is flawed. I know Angelo disagrees. But this is the magazine that gave us Gemma O'Doherty, so I won't be taking their word as gospel either. The pols and commentators need to let Gardai investigate. I think what they will find is that he was within his rights to share. The pay contract was impacting all GPs, not just the GPs in the IMO Union. The IMO had already announced the package before he met the other Union President. His judgement was poor not to talk to Harris first. I think the bigger crime is why taxpayers money to a Union that was able to give their CEO a 9 million retirement package was an "Official Secret" in the first place, in particular when the pay was impacting all GPs. We'll see.
Village magazine's line is backed up by a senior counsel though.
I still have not been able to make sense of the solicitors argument. And I hate to point out that I think he was a SF candidate, because I don't want to be accused of the SF word. He seems to be saying that if official information worked on by a public official is confidential (eg the draft pay agreement), when it gets into the hands of a member of government (eg Leo), it remains confidential, and thus Leo is not exempt from OSA. That seems a good argument except for one fact - a public official is not authorised to share confidential information unless authorised by a Minister (eg Member of Govt) or State Authority (eg Attorney General); a Minister (ie a member of Government per Act), is authorised. So the official information is passing into the hands of someone who is not authorised, to the hands of someone who is authorised. The Village solicitor is making the claim that it carries its confidentiality as it passes hands from a public official to a Minister. Is that what he is saying? If so, I think it's interesting logic but flawed logic.
Surely you can't authorise yourself ?
It never explicitly states that a member of government needs authorisation from another member of government. Some earlier articles (including Village) jumped to the conclusion that a Minister was a Line Minister, and Simon Harris needed to provide authorisation. But the Act is clear that a Minister is a member of government. And a Minister can authorise. I think that alone clears Varadkar, even if what he did was not best practice and showed him to be a poor team player with questionable judgement and people leadership skills.
Its not absolute. He can't order people assassinated.
The Taoiseach's role does not include negotiating with doctors so your point is very moot
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Well done Columbo
Just shows you up for what you are that your default reaction is to claim somebody disagrees with you is addicted to drugs
You must lead a very sheltered life indeed given that entirely reasonable opinion offends you so much that you react in such a way
I've had this opinion of you since your disgraceful posting about Tony Keady's wife after his death.
There was no rational/logical reason why anyone would have sat and actually typed out the things you did - and then post them to a GAA forum.
The continued repetitive insanity, plus your latest little slip of the 'tongue' have only confirmed it.
So...
Given that you managed to solve that last little riddle, I'm sure you'll have worked out exactly how many 'Falks' I give about your broadsides
And to quote the great man...
go ahead...
post 'Just one more thing'.
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:56:52 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 16, 2021, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: Franko on March 16, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Well done Columbo
Just shows you up for what you are that your default reaction is to claim somebody disagrees with you is addicted to drugs
You must lead a very sheltered life indeed given that entirely reasonable opinion offends you so much that you react in such a way
I've had this opinion of you since your disgraceful posting about Tony Keady's wife after his death.
There was no rational/logical reason why anyone would have sat and actually typed out the things you did - and then post them to a GAA forum.
The continued repetitive insanity, plus your latest little slip of the 'tongue' have only confirmed it.
So...
Given that you managed to solve that last little riddle, I'm sure you'll have worked out exactly how many 'Falks' I give about your broadsides
And to quote the great man...
go ahead...
post 'Just one more thing'.
That post says far more about you than it does it about me
Like a lot of SF propaganda shills, you're a bitter, angry little man - and your anger is pretty much never aimed in the right places
That post is a giveaway of serious underlying issues
I hope you get help with them
I genuinely mean that
Lol, thanks
A former FF minister has come out and said that Varadkar is not exempt from the Official Secrets Act and he would have had to sign a letter when taking office saying as much.
https://villagemagazine.ie/the-tanaiste-and-i-both-signed-the-official-secrets-act/
RTE and the mainstream media are doing everything in their power to suppress this story. The Free State media are arguably every bit as toxic as that in the UK.
Seamie Wolfe rode the storm re golf gate. Back to work now. No mention of him now
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40245608.html%3ftype=amp
Quote from: macker15 on March 17, 2021, 10:55:47 PM
Seamie Wolfe rode the storm re golf gate. Back to work now. No mention of him now
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40245608.html%3ftype=amp
The biggest political scandal I think the Free State has seen has been buried for the last few years.
There were some very serious allegations but to former FG leader Michael Noonan about his time as Minister for Health. He is alleged by a whistleblower to have intervened in a foster case where a vulnerable girl with learning difficulties was allowed stay in the care of an abuser parent after Noonan was lobbied on behalf of the parent.
It's otherwise known as the Grace case.
Few articles on it here:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/inquiry-on-michael-noonan-s-actions-in-grace-case-urged-1.2545924
https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/06/25/reversal/
The story broke in 2015 and has effectively been buried. The investigation into it has been kicked down the road and stalled by the FFG government at every opportunity. Noonan turns 78 in a couple of months. I think it's clear to see that FFG are trying to stall and obstruct this investigation for as long as they can so they can cite health reasons to stop Noonan being questioned on his role and to stop the truth coming out.
What is frankly obscene is the media's role in killing this story.
(https://tfkdatatfk.s3.dualstack.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/original/3X/e/8/e8cb0e82c43f83f22b0081d4e14810142b7f343e.jpeg)
So the then Minister for Health sang like a canary when questioned.
Yet the media bizarrely seem not to have cottoned on that his statement to the Gardai is at odds to what he told the Dail when he was questioned on this.
Meanwhile the Independent are running front page news about "credible" death threats to Varadkar without disclosing who from. Clearly it's loyalism but nice of them to try and leave the accusations open to SF supporters.
Deflect and smear seems to be the modus operandi of the Free State gutter press.
Fine article by Gerard Howlin here
The whole thing looks more and more like a pantomime and much ado about nothing
But maybe Varadkar should resign over his shameless ridiculing of deadly serious public health advice instead?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a19bd34c-89b8-11eb-a627-ab1cfc779ef5?shareToken=df881f4b7db6b85376e3adbbb71459cd
Gerard Howlin: Leo's halo has slipped
Gerard Howlin
Sunday March 21 2021, 12.01am GMT, The Sunday Times
If a taoiseach can't leak a document, he is no taoiseach at all. The pejorative use of the word "leak" to describe Leo Varadkar's passing of a confidential document to a friend, who was then president of the National Association of General Practitioners, misses this point. A taoiseach's cabinet colleagues can leak, though only with difficulty. Political advisers may do so more easily, while civil servants may do so occasionally. But a taoiseach cannot "leak", because as chairman of cabinet he is the authority who decides what is confidential and what is authorised for disclosure.
This leak, so-called, has become a big political story. Gardai are conducting an investigation to check whether the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018 has been breached. Ironically, the revelation of the criminal investigation, in this newspaper and elsewhere last Sunday, may have been the result of an actual leak. There was a remarkable lack of concern last weekend over those leaks in the rush to visit further opprobrium on Varadkar.
The word "leak" is often a crude, overblown way to describe an authorised disclosure. Disclosing to discomfit your enemies, or butter your own turnips, is a staple skill in politics. Still, investigations into leaks titillate the media and, in Varadkar's case, caused some of his political competitors to engage in hypocrisy.
The cabinet is collectively responsible for every activity of every government department. A department is an area of responsibility assigned to a minister, but the responsibility is collective. It is hard to see how a minister disclosing a confidential document, or divulging an official secret, could be acting "illegally" unless it was for material advantage.
All information not released under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act is technically secret. In practice, disclosure is wholesale. The context of Varadkar passing a confidential document to his friend was industrial relations negotiations with doctors. In such situations it is a matter of tactical judgment as to when, how and to what extent the position of one party is shared with another. This is how states govern.
If held responsible for breaking political omerta, the outcome is process-free rough justice. Worse than being illegal, it is considered politically inconvenient. Leaking is about currying favour with journalists, having a better share of the limelight, scuppering one policy or testing another. It is inseparable from the messiness of politics and democracy.
But none of this is the preserve of the political class. Officials, if usually sparing, are not averse to leaking. And they have a more subtle and effective weapon, which is not to tell at all. One contentious aspect of what I regard as Varadkar's legitimate disclosure of a copy of an agreement between the government and the Irish Medical Organisation to Dr Maitiú Ó Tuathail, president of a rival GP organisation, is that the taoiseach at the time didn't inform his cabinet colleague Simon Harris, as minister for health. Yet it is the prerogative of the taoiseach to reach into any department, and it is at his discretion what to tell any minister.
It is assumed in Government Buildings that departments are constantly withholding information. That is true, up to a point. Frequently what is not disclosed to a taoiseach has not been disclosed to the minister either, or at least not in detail. Information is power.
The issue here is not a leak, which I maintain did not happen. It is unlikely to be alleged "corruption", which is being investigated. Assuming Varadkar got no material gain — and I absolutely do not think he did — the question is whether the quid pro quo was political advantage. But if this is the new bar for doing business in government, it is the end of politics. Considering the glee of his opponents, I assume they still believe seeking political advantage is fair game regardless.
What matters for Varadkar is that he was caught cack-handed in the tidal estuary between secrecy and gossip. Because Ó Tuathail was a friend with a proclivity for WhatsApp, whence a colourful account of the transaction emanated, it has left Varadkar in the part of pantomime villain. The #LeotheLeak controversy has damaged a meticulously created political persona of a straight-talker.
The squirming in Fine Gael is amusing. The whole point of being in that party is that others, not you, are collared by the gardai. Now the former and future taoiseach is another tradesman, just like the rest of us. The Leo halo has slipped, and innocence is lost.
Good article, last sentence sums it up.
PS has Mr Howlin a FF background?
Amazing to see the lads who don't vote for FFG trying to defend this.
Good one lads.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/db893e891e7650f49dd7b8b63e69de72/tenor.gif)
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40075016.html
Mickey might be in a spot of bother here?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9D9eBg1fS3w&feature=youtu.be
You're scraping the barrel there. He's telling her to take off the mask for a photo and is keeping away from her. If that's the worst thing happens this weekend we'll be lucky
Quote from: dublin7 on April 03, 2021, 07:07:56 PM
You're scraping the barrel there. He's telling her to take off the mask for a photo and is keeping away from her. If that's the worst thing happens this weekend we'll be lucky
Trolling hypocrite in contradiction shocker.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/no-inquiry-into-taoiseachs-presence-at-cork-boxing-event-40271701.html
I know it's not the ditch website, but I'm sure a reputable website like themselves will update their site
21 addresses about Covid. Nobody is listening anymore. Roads are busier than ever. Public parks are thronged. Then you have people drinking outside pubs with their takeaway pints.
https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/weve-had-21-addresses-now-onthe-covidemergency-fair-to-say-none-of-them-exactly-the-gettysburg-address-40259595.html
Quote from: macker15 on April 04, 2021, 11:55:54 AM
21 addresses about Covid. Nobody is listening anymore. Roads are busier than ever. Public parks are thronged. Then you have people drinking outside pubs with their takeaway pints.
https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/weve-had-21-addresses-now-onthe-covidemergency-fair-to-say-none-of-them-exactly-the-gettysburg-address-40259595.html
You love to see it.
Leo on the move
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/news/6799130/tanaiste-leo-varadkar-not-forced-move-death-threats/amp/
Has any journalists clarified the story about Leo "having to move out"?
I can't understand how anyone could make a "mistake" about that tbh. Lots of fingers being pointed at Neale Photoshop Richmond as the "source" on social media since yesterday, but not sure about that
Leo called out by Labour on Sinn Fein tweets
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.joe.ie/amp/news/leo-varadkar-accused-obsession-sinn-fein-heated-dail-exchange-720458
Varadkar could be in a bit of bother here.
Kate O'Connell was interviewed by Gardai this week. She's the only high profile FG figure who basically came out and said the whole defence proffered by Varadkar and FG was a complete nonsense.
"It appears there was a confidential document leaked, I was in the Dail at the time, there was a lot of talk at the time about that contract. The fact is it was a valuable document to an organisation that wasn't entitled to it."
I'd imagine she's been brought in to be interviewed as her view on the matter is completely at odds with and contradicts Varadkar's contention that the document was only used to sell the deal to the NGAP rather than they could get some leverage of competitive advantage out of it.
Leo playing a stevie wonder here diverting on answering questions. FF/FG are too predictable with their rants on the spinners at any given opportunity. Then Pat Kenny made ribbons of Stephen Donnelly on newstalk. The man hasn't a breeze.
https://m.independent.ie/videos/you-need-to-calm-down-varadkar-accuses-doherty-of-aggressive-display-for-social-media-40602692.html