Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[BennyCake]

SF are the largest Nationalist/Republican party, but have they shown any maturity or made any sensible discussion on how a UI is achievable, other than shouting "border poll" at every opportunity?

As recent election results show, their behaviour would struggle to convince many nationalists of a UI, never mind unionists.

[tbrick18]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

The point that I was trying to make with the sport, was that it seemed to be any sport but Gaelic games.
I had once asked the question about why they hadn't entered the Cumann na mBunscol, to be told by the principal they didn't know anything about it. So I contacted the offices of Comann na mBunscol for info, only to be told the school was registered by never attended. On further investigation, they had actually go funding for Gaelic Games coaching, but used it for "other" activities.

[five points]

English nationalism is destroying Britishness

Only in the heads of those who hate Britishness.

[TheOptimist]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

The point that I was trying to make with the sport, was that it seemed to be any sport but Gaelic games.
I had once asked the question about why they hadn't entered the Cumann na mBunscol, to be told by the principal they didn't know anything about it. So I contacted the offices of Comann na mBunscol for info, only to be told the school was registered by never attended. On further investigation, they had actually go funding for Gaelic Games coaching, but used it for "other" activities.

My two go to integrated and my experience to date has not been this. In fact their U6 coach at the club teaches at the school and runs the school GAA activities.

The biggest surprise I had is that football tops such as Republic or Northern Ireland are actually encouraged. The ethos is about accepting differences and not hiding or being ashamed of them. They are learning more about Diversity than they would at a Catholic school.

[Rossfan]

Are they encouraged to wear County or GAA Club jerseys though?

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.

[trailer]

f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's about uniting a people not a land. Come back to me when you wake up to that realisation.

[TheOptimist]

Are they encouraged to wear County or GAA Club jerseys though?

The point was made regarding the soccer jerseys but it was more a general point, so yes, there would be no issues.

[Franko]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

[Keyser soze]

My knowledge of Integrated school is based on one school in Northwest. There is no place for GAA in their curriculum, it is a state school in all but name, I can only assume their teaching of history and culture are the same.

A teacher I know well felt unwelcome in the school after trying to introduce GAA in the school and left as a direct result of the resistance encountered from other staff and from parents. I am not saying there was physical intimidation but there was such a vitriolic reaction to the suggestion that the person felt so uncomfortable that they sought another position.

Integrated education is seen as a more lucrative funding stream to replace the diminishing numbers attending state schools, it has got zero to do with taking a balanced approach to learning about Irishness, the ethos is entirely British.

I accept that in other areas and other schools there may be a more even handed approach. 

[HiMucker]

CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.

Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

[HiMucker]

Integrated education in its current guise is certainly not the silver bullet. Im not sure who even thinks it is? But if we are to live in a shared society then I think there needs to be a lot of work done around integration, and that integration needs to start with education and education reform. It might not make much difference initially in somewhere like the city side of Derry, but christ the first protestants I ever spoke to in any capacity was when I went to Uni. Thats the same case for a lot of friends and family. That is madness.

[johnnycool]

I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

[HiMucker]

I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

Thats a fair point. But which do you think is easier to do? For example loads of new houses being built in the affluent Culmore rd area of Derry. How many protestant families would be encouraged to move there when their isn't a school for their kids to go to? Its a bit of chicken and egg.

[Keyser soze]

I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

Integrated housing projects so far seem to work okay as long as the catholics keep their head down when the UVF flags are erected so in that respect it is quite similar to Integrated Education.