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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Farrandeelin on May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Poll
Question: Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?
Option 1: Yes votes: 47
Option 2: Yes but have no vote votes: 73
Option 3: No votes: 40
Option 4: No but have no vote votes: 36
Option 5: Undecided votes: 20
Title: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM
A general overview of gaaboard members feelings on this issue.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Ambrose on May 01, 2018, 03:45:32 PM
I will be voting NO. It's only the second time in my life that I will have voted and I'll be 50 later this year, so it's something I feel very strongly about.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?

Is there, really? Some may say that but I think this is an issue most people know from a long way out what way they're voting.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?

Is there, really? Some may say that but I think this is an issue most people know from a long way out what way they're voting.

I think there's a large amount who say they are undecided because they don't want to say they will vote No. I think the yes side will win, but I don't think it will be more than 60-40.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hound on May 01, 2018, 03:58:58 PM
I'd guess there'll be a big urban-rural divide here when they release the constituency-by-constituency split.

Yes side need to get a real push on to get voters out, otherwise a No win is most certainly not out of the question. This is a very different debate to the marriage vote, which I think was a relatively easy decision for most people (whether Yes or No). There's a very big amount of people for whom this referendum is a very difficult decision either way and many might decide just not to bother.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:01:10 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?

Is there, really? Some may say that but I think this is an issue most people know from a long way out what way they're voting.

I think there's a large amount who say they are undecided because they don't want to say they will vote No. I think the yes side will win, but I don't think it will be more than 60-40.

I'd take a stab and say an 8-point margin for the Yes side when all is said and done as gaps like this one invariably narrow approaching a poll. So 54-46, which would still be a resounding win in a country that was devoutly Catholic two decades ago.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:02:33 PM
It is when you count the number of votes, but if you have a room of 100 people, and 55 are for, and 45 against, it feels a lot closer :) Also, 2 decades ago was 1998. I'm not sure how devoutly Catholic the country was then. Maybe 4 decades ago.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 01, 2018, 04:12:09 PM
Can't vote, but a definite NO.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:18:23 PM
Yes.....but with reservations (but can't vote)

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:19:43 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:02:33 PM
It is when you count the number of votes, but if you have a room of 100 people, and 55 are for, and 45 against, it feels a lot closer :) Also, 2 decades ago was 1998. I'm not sure how devoutly Catholic the country was then. Maybe 4 decades ago.

Divorce scrapped over the line 50.28% to 49.72% in 1996; nineteen years later same sex marriage passed 62.07% to 37.93%. The liberalisation of Ireland mostly happened between 1996 and 2015 IMHO, and I'm very thankful for it.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:28:55 PM
To be honest, I try to ignore all the Yes and No bullshit. As I said on another thread, I read the proposed referendum changes, and the proposed legislation, and that's what I'll make my mind up on. (Or have already)

what lies are the No side putting out?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:28:55 PM
To be honest, I try to ignore all the Yes and No bullshit. As I said on another thread, I read the proposed referendum changes, and the proposed legislation, and that's what I'll make my mind up on. (Or have already)

what lies are the No side putting out?
For a start, their narrative is to try and fool the public that there will be unrestricted access to abortion up to six months.

This is a blatant lie.

David Robert Grimes laid out some of their other lies in an Irish Times article last month.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/myths-and-lies-about-abortion-must-be-debunked-1.3448176
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:34:50 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:28:55 PM
To be honest, I try to ignore all the Yes and No bullshit. As I said on another thread, I read the proposed referendum changes, and the proposed legislation, and that's what I'll make my mind up on. (Or have already)

what lies are the No side putting out?

They have some shïte about six month abortions up on a poster back home, classic disingenuous fear-mongering. This was found at a bus stop in Dublin (and this isn't a joke, the same yokes had similar posters up in the past):

(https://i.imgur.com/craX5Kd.jpg)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 01, 2018, 04:37:07 PM
Are their any figures in the public domain in UK etc as to how percentage of multiple abortions by a single person as using abortion as birth control has been a key argument. I remember reading that some women in England had >5 abortions. In those cases I'd have said the women needed counselling.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:28:55 PM
To be honest, I try to ignore all the Yes and No bullshit. As I said on another thread, I read the proposed referendum changes, and the proposed legislation, and that's what I'll make my mind up on. (Or have already)

what lies are the No side putting out?
For a start, their narrative is to try and fool the public that there will be unrestricted access to abortion up to six months.

This is a blatant lie.

David Robert Grimes laid out some of their other lies in an Irish Times article last month.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/myths-and-lies-about-abortion-must-be-debunked-1.3448176

That's obviously a lie, *but* it's not untrue to say this referendum would allow legislation to be brought at some point in the future which could have any term right up to birth.

I realise legislation like that would (hopefully) never get through the Dáil, but the actual constitutionality of it would be fine.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:39:32 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 01, 2018, 04:37:07 PM
Are their any figures in the public domain in UK etc as to how percentage of multiple abortions by a single person as using abortion as birth control has been a key argument. I remember reading that some women in England had >5 abortions. In those cases I'd have said the women needed counselling.

Or more likely the pill. Sex ed would be more effective than counselling in addressing that sort of problem.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.
the majority of the people who surprisingly voted yes in the same sex marriage referendum, I feel voted to stick one to the church. And in their eyes it doesn't have a negative impact on society or doesn't hurt anyone. Those same people won't vote yes for abortion. Theres a big difference and the two issues cannot be compared. I know loads of atheists and agnostics who are anti abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.
the majority of the people who surprisingly voted yes in the same sex marriage referendum, I feel voted to stick one to the church. And in their eyes it doesn't have a negative impact on society or doesn't hurt anyone. Those same people won't vote yes for abortion. Theres a big difference and the two issues cannot be compared. I know loads of atheists and agnostics who are anti abortion.

You're an insufferable twàt to suggest people voted Yes to stick it to the church from your birds eye view of modern Ireland over in America.

The fact you call it surprising shows how massively out of touch you are with this country.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 01, 2018, 04:45:33 PM
I voted Yes in the Marriage Equality Referendum. Because I wanted to allow Gay People have the same access to a family unit, even just as a couple, as anyone else. That was about fairness, and nobody was getting hurt at all.

This referendum is not nearly a clear cut in my view.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 01, 2018, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.
the majority of the people who surprisingly voted yes in the same sex marriage referendum, I feel voted to stick one to the church. And in their eyes it doesn't have a negative impact on society or doesn't hurt anyone. Those same people won't vote yes for abortion. Theres a big difference and the two issues cannot be compared. I know loads of atheists and agnostics who are anti abortion.

You're an insufferable twàt to suggest people voted Yes to stick it to the church from your birds eye view of modern Ireland over in America.

The fact you call it surprising shows how massively out of touch you are with this country.
I'm talking about our generation - the older generation - your da an ma and aunts and uncles - a lot of them would have voted for marriage referendum because of gripes with the church - i've talked to more people about it, older people and they agree thats the underlying reason...
abortion is a whole different issue and in no way correlates
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 01, 2018, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.
the majority of the people who surprisingly voted yes in the same sex marriage referendum, I feel voted to stick one to the church. And in their eyes it doesn't have a negative impact on society or doesn't hurt anyone. Those same people won't vote yes for abortion. Theres a big difference and the two issues cannot be compared. I know loads of atheists and agnostics who are anti abortion.

You're an insufferable twàt to suggest people voted Yes to stick it to the church from your birds eye view of modern Ireland over in America.

The fact you call it surprising shows how massively out of touch you are with this country.
I'm talking about our generation - the older generation - your da an ma and aunts and uncles - a lot of them would have voted for marriage referendum because of gripes with the church - i've talked to more people about it, older people and they agree thats the underlying reason...
abortion is a whole different issue and in no way correlates

They are literally 100% incorrect if they think it materially effected the result. The church's role in that referendum as any sort of driving force was minuscule. People simply do not care anymore.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 01, 2018, 05:08:33 PM
If the Yes vote goes through what is the financial impact on the person seeking an abortion? Presumably this wouldn't be within the remit of health insurance and if it's driven by lifestyle rather than medical necessity will the women have to pay?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 01, 2018, 05:22:52 PM
Was more towards Yes but not convinced until I saw Late Late Show debate on Friday night. Have no vote though. So it's a Yes from me.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: mrdeeds on May 01, 2018, 05:36:00 PM
Voting yes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 01, 2018, 05:50:30 PM
No.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
You can provide a link to this of course?

Because you wouldn't want to have a reputation for just spouting nonsense - not that I'm saying you have, not at all...  ;D
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 06:22:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:44:27 PM

You're an insufferable twàt to suggest people voted Yes to stick it to the church from your birds eye view of modern Ireland over in America.

The fact you call it surprising shows how massively out of touch you are with this country.

There's no need for that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: laoislad on May 01, 2018, 06:32:26 PM
I can't wait for it all to be over whatever the outcome.
Saying that I've decided I'll be voting No.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Esmarelda on May 01, 2018, 06:40:08 PM
I've almost managed to stay clear from the debate, but slipped up when I saw a small bit of The Late Late Show.

I am, and was always, voting yes but I had recently come slightly towards the middle. The No side on the Late Late Show set me right though.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 01, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
You can provide a link to this of course?

Because you wouldn't want to have a reputation for just spouting nonsense - not that I'm saying you have, not at all...  ;D

Haha.....not at all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728


This article was shared on the "in her shoes" facebook page (which I follow)

The rebuttal was posted by Gerald Allen on the "repeal vrs save the 8th debate" facebook page (which I also follow) on April 27th.

(The "debate" page is no such thing.....its firmly NO page. I had originally liked it thinking I was going to hear 2 reasonable sides to the argument)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 06:57:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 06:22:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:44:27 PM

You're an insufferable twàt to suggest people voted Yes to stick it to the church from your birds eye view of modern Ireland over in America.

The fact you call it surprising shows how massively out of touch you are with this country.

There's no need for that.

I would agree in most cases. In this case it's absolutely appropriate given what was said and knowing that poster's attitude towards both the church and social progress. To diminish the same sex marriage vote to the degree that you see it as a public railing against the church, all from the distance of America takes a serious level of hubris.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 01, 2018, 07:05:18 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 06:57:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 06:22:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 04:44:27 PM

You're an insufferable twàt to suggest people voted Yes to stick it to the church from your birds eye view of modern Ireland over in America.

The fact you call it surprising shows how massively out of touch you are with this country.

There's no need for that.

I would agree in most cases. In this case it's absolutely appropriate given what was said and knowing that poster's attitude towards both the church and social progress. To diminish the same sex marriage vote to the degree that you see it as a public railing against the church, all from the distance of America takes a serious level of hubris.

Your own county men and women didnt exactly cover themselves in glory during the Marriage referendum
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?

Is there, really? Some may say that but I think this is an issue most people know from a long way out what way they're voting.

Sorry for delayed response:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 01, 2018, 07:20:36 PM
Hmmmm mm. ....
GAA boarders  who have a vote going 44% No, 38% Yes and 18% Undecided.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?

Is there, really? Some may say that but I think this is an issue most people know from a long way out what way they're voting.

Sorry for delayed response:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html)

I get that there are high reported undecided voters but I'd seriously question if a lot don't know already which way they'll go.

Change is in the air and I think a lot of the undecideds are No voters who don't have the courage to express their convictions, which in itself would tell you a little about the what likely result will be.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Boycey on May 01, 2018, 08:59:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?

Is there, really? Some may say that but I think this is an issue most people know from a long way out what way they're voting.

Sorry for delayed response:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html)

I get that there are high reported undecided voters but I'd seriously question if a lot don't know already which way they'll go.

Change is in the air and I think a lot of the undecideds are No voters who don't have the courage to express their convictions, which in itself would tell you a little about the what likely result will be.

I think no voters are the most likely to express their convictions.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people. If given the option I would most definitely vote no. My wife and I were unable to have children so we adopted. One of our youngsters birth mom was raped. We now have one of our greatest gifts. Loves to play hurling, sing, play soccer, Irish dance play guitar you name it he's trying his hand at it. This little man is so handsome and kind he makes life worth living. We couldn't imagine life without our wee ones.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: GJL on May 01, 2018, 09:49:30 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people. If given the option I would most definitely vote no. My wife and I were unable to have children so we adopted. One of our youngsters birth mom was raped. We now have one of our greatest gifts. Loves to play hurling, sing, play soccer, Irish dance play guitar you name it he's trying his hand at it. This little man is so handsome and kind he makes life worth living. We couldn't imagine life without our wee ones.

Brilliant post. Vote No.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Boycey on May 01, 2018, 08:59:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 01, 2018, 03:43:58 PM
There seems to be quite a large undecided cohort - perhaps include that option in the poll?

Is there, really? Some may say that but I think this is an issue most people know from a long way out what way they're voting.

Sorry for delayed response:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/poll-finds-a-fifth-undecided-on-abortion-referendum-both-sides-welcome-findings-838297.html)

I get that there are high reported undecided voters but I'd seriously question if a lot don't know already which way they'll go.

Change is in the air and I think a lot of the undecideds are No voters who don't have the courage to express their convictions, which in itself would tell you a little about the what likely result will be.

I think no voters are the most likely to express their convictions.

You'd be very wrong if you think most who are voting Yes isn't very loud and very proud of their choice. We've been waiting for a very long time to change this law.

We've had the legislation No voters want for the entire history of the State; we know it doesn't work. Time to try something new.

And if, as I suspect, Ireland agrees with me then there's little chance of it ever being reversed because the benefits to society and to people will be impossible to ignore. If No wins it will only delay progress and we will be back at the polls within a decade.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 01, 2018, 09:55:36 PM
Who's the we?? Won't have any difference on your life, unless  :o
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 01, 2018, 09:59:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 01, 2018, 09:55:36 PM
Who's the we?? Won't have any difference on your life, unless  :o

Syf or any man might marry or settle down with a woman (maybe he already is). His potential future partner/present partner may at some stage have complications during pregnancy. That's how.

Edit to add that I wouldn't wish the above on any couple.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 01, 2018, 10:04:41 PM
Can't vote - but I'd be voting yes if I could
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 01, 2018, 10:05:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 01, 2018, 09:55:36 PM
Who's the we?? Won't have any difference on your life, unless  :o

Of course it makes difference to man's life too... could be your daughter is affected, partner etc. Not comparable to how it affects women but does have affect men too
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 01, 2018, 10:06:01 PM
Yes from me

the 8th should never have been introduced in the first place by the religious conservatives who promoted it by scaremongering politicians and the public

amazing the No side were firstly on the Yes side back in 1983, but on the No side for probably every other referendum since - 12th, 13th amendments, divorce, same sex marriage

they might as well be unionists imho
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:08:51 PM
Can't vote but would vote yes.

I'm queasy about abortion and it can't be a nice experience, but I'd hate to be a woman in that situation. At the early stages of pregnancy there's not yet a central nervous system and nothing approaching sentience, so there's no such thing as a "baby" to begin with. But this is all academic since the principle is bodily autonomy.  If someone's life depends on me donating a kidney or donating blood, no doctor has the right to cut me open, interfere with my body, and make me do something with it that I don't want, even if another life is at stake. Bodily autonomy. It's not negotiable and it should apply to everyone, including pregnant women.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 01, 2018, 10:19:30 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 01, 2018, 10:05:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 01, 2018, 09:55:36 PM
Who's the we?? Won't have any difference on your life, unless  :o

Of course it makes difference to man's life too... could be your daughter is affected, partner etc. Not comparable to how it affects women but does have affect men too

You're missing the point, I'm unsure on Syferus's sex! He's either a woman, man, or part of the LGBT crowd!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owen Brannigan on May 01, 2018, 10:36:12 PM
By voting Yes people need to know that they are not voting for abortion, that would have to be legislated for by the Dail. 

It is a vote to make any future legislation on abortion to be constitutional.  In other words, it is a vote to give the decision on abortion to be taken by elected representatives.

If the amendment is repealed it would be interesting to see if any legislation could be passed by the Dail with TDs looking over their shoulders at how the electorate would treat them in an imminent election.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 01, 2018, 10:37:12 PM
Undecided.

Leaning towards yes but could be convinced to vote no.

The standard of debate in the media & online is generally pitiful, mainly the extreme opinions being voiced rather than discussing it properly and acknowledging that shades of grey do exist
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 01, 2018, 11:03:18 PM
Quote from: Boycey on May 01, 2018, 08:59:40 PM
I think no voters are the most likely to express their convictions.

I'd be curious Boycey as to what you mean by "express their convictions"? If you mean by that, going out and voting, I would tend to agree with you. However if you mean voicing those convictions in a public forum, my sense would be no. I think many that do call for a 'no' vote are likely to be subject to all sorts of vitriol and venom. Mickey Harte is a classic example of that. It takes courage to stand up and do what he has done, whether you agree with him or not.

With regard to the debate, again my sense would be that many viewpoints will be led by the view of the foetus in the womb - is it a life with potential, or is it a potential life? I would very much be of the former opinion - the foetus in the womb is a life and on that basis, if I had a vote, I'd be voting no. I look at  Baile an tuaigh's excellent post above and wonder how many more innocents like his son, never got the chance his son did.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 01, 2018, 11:38:10 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 01, 2018, 10:36:12 PM
By voting Yes people need to know that they are not voting for abortion, that would have to be legislated for by the Dail. 

It is a vote to make any future legislation on abortion to be constitutional.  In other words, it is a vote to give the decision on abortion to be taken by elected representatives.

If the amendment is repealed it would be interesting to see if any legislation could be passed by the Dail with TDs looking over their shoulders at how the electorate would treat them in an imminent election.

This was already went over two months ago. The Government and the major parties support the recommendations; in the event of the referendum being passed the legislation that was proposed will pass with some sabre rattling by those who can't take losing like grow-ups but there is absolutely no way enough FG/FF/Lab/SF will disrespect the electorate's wishes and refuse to pass the legislation that was used as the basis for the solution in the event of a Yes vote. It would be quite literally electoral suicide for the parties involved.

You talk about pissing off their constituents - well many more will be much more seriously pissed off if the side the most votes don't get what the were told they were getting. At least the other side have no foot to stand on if the referendum is passed.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trileacman on May 02, 2018, 12:00:16 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:08:51 PM
Can't vote but would vote yes.

I'm queasy about abortion and it can't be a nice experience, but I'd hate to be a woman in that situation. At the early stages of pregnancy there's not yet a central nervous system and nothing approaching sentience, so there's no such thing as a "baby" to begin with. But this is all academic since the principle is bodily autonomy.  If someone's life depends on me donating a kidney or donating blood, no doctor has the right to cut me open, interfere with my body, and make me do something with it that I don't want, even if another life is at stake. Bodily autonomy. It's not negotiable and it should apply to everyone, including pregnant women.

What you describe there, "body autonomy", is tantamount to unlimited abortion with no restrictions as to the stage of pregnancy. If the primary reason you believe in voting yes is because no one can force you to support a life inside you because it is your body and hence your choice then you can have no rebuttal for a woman who chooses to abort her baby a day before delivery or even an hour before delivery. As you say it was her body and her choice, if a woman chooses at 8 months gestation to abort her baby then how, as a supporter of "bodily auntonomy", could you oppose her?


That's not something I could fathom but that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 02, 2018, 12:08:40 AM
Quote from: trileacman on May 02, 2018, 12:00:16 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:08:51 PM
Can't vote but would vote yes.

I'm queasy about abortion and it can't be a nice experience, but I'd hate to be a woman in that situation. At the early stages of pregnancy there's not yet a central nervous system and nothing approaching sentience, so there's no such thing as a "baby" to begin with. But this is all academic since the principle is bodily autonomy.  If someone's life depends on me donating a kidney or donating blood, no doctor has the right to cut me open, interfere with my body, and make me do something with it that I don't want, even if another life is at stake. Bodily autonomy. It's not negotiable and it should apply to everyone, including pregnant women.

What you describe there, "body autonomy", is tantamount to unlimited abortion with no restrictions as to age. If the primary reason you believe in voting yes is because no one can force you to support a life inside you because it is your body and hence your choice then you can have no rebuttal for a woman who chooses to abort her baby a day before delivery or even an hour before delivery, because as you say it was her body and her choice.

That's not something I could fathom but that's just my opinion.

I agree, it's a very difficult topic and there's no easy answers. I'd just like abortion to be safe, legal and rare. The Dutch (who seem to get so much right) seem to have figured out how to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, and they didn't do it by listening to religious instruction.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 02, 2018, 01:12:59 AM
Rufus got it right in his post above – a NO voter expressing their opinions risks being met with vitriol and venom (as evidenced by some resident ignoramuses on this forum's LLS thread).

For the record I intend to vote No which will be cancelled by the Yes vote of the Missus. I can agree to an extent with the reasons she is voting Yes and in turn her Yes vote does not mean she is in favour of abortion on demand – my reason for voting No.  I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy. There are of course exceptional situations such as rape and fatal foetal abnormalities – I don't have the wisdom to offer an opinion here.

Abortion on demand is widely available across Europe. Because we have a prohibition on abortion in our constitution we have a far lower rate of abortion than other European countries – this is a positive result in my opinion.

I don't agree that abortion should be legalised just because it is possible to purchase abortion pills online. I'm not squeamish but today's 6-One News had a feature on abortion pills which I found disturbing to watch – just seeing the images of abortion pills on screen and thinking of the ease in which embryonic human life can be snuffed out.

Unfortunately some people confuse abortion with necessary medical intervention – at present, with the Eight Amendment in place, an expectant mother cannot legally be denied life-saving treatment.

All voters need to be fully informed on what they will be voting on - https://refcom2018.refcom.ie/ provides an independent guide https://refcom2018.refcom.ie/refcom-guide-2018-english.pdf

Draft Legislation (if 8th Amendment is repealed )
http://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/General-Scheme-for-Publication.pdf

For anyone interested in a Christian perspective on this debate I quote from the COI Archbishop of Armagh's statement of 28th March – this stance would be endorsed by a wide spectrum of the electorate :

'We have previously expressed our concern that the forthcoming Constitutional referendum is being understood as something akin to an opinion poll on the complex issue of abortion. However, now that the Government has made known the general scheme of a Bill which it would introduce should the referendum on the repeal of Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution of Ireland be passed, voters face a stark decision.
'Although it is true that the present provision under the Constitution has proved less than satisfactory in some respects, and we suggested the possibility of a modification to the present Constitutional position, what is now being proposed by the Government – if the Article is repealed – is unrestricted access to abortion up to twelve weeks of pregnancy.
'As we have said before (in our statement of 5th February – and we also refer to the wider comments made in that statement about the need for pastoral care for women, their partners and their families, and for improved support services and greater investment in medical and mental health services), unrestricted access to abortion in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy, or indeed at any stage, is not an ethical position we can accept. There is, for Christians, a very clear witness in the Scriptures that all human life, including before physical birth, has a sacred dignity in the eyes of God.
'We therefore ask Church members to think through the issues involved carefully and with prayer over these coming weeks.'
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 02, 2018, 01:17:48 AM
It's so very easy for men in this thread to sit back and moralise to women saying they should take an unwanted pregnancy to term as if it's something that is easy or should be done lightly.

Like with most womens' issues this forum is at odds with the majority opinion and stuck with opinions that might have cut mustard a few decades ago when we knew a lot less about the world we live in.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trileacman on May 02, 2018, 01:52:45 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 02, 2018, 12:08:40 AM
Quote from: trileacman on May 02, 2018, 12:00:16 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:08:51 PM
Can't vote but would vote yes.

I'm queasy about abortion and it can't be a nice experience, but I'd hate to be a woman in that situation. At the early stages of pregnancy there's not yet a central nervous system and nothing approaching sentience, so there's no such thing as a "baby" to begin with. But this is all academic since the principle is bodily autonomy.  If someone's life depends on me donating a kidney or donating blood, no doctor has the right to cut me open, interfere with my body, and make me do something with it that I don't want, even if another life is at stake. Bodily autonomy. It's not negotiable and it should apply to everyone, including pregnant women.

What you describe there, "body autonomy", is tantamount to unlimited abortion with no restrictions as to age. If the primary reason you believe in voting yes is because no one can force you to support a life inside you because it is your body and hence your choice then you can have no rebuttal for a woman who chooses to abort her baby a day before delivery or even an hour before delivery, because as you say it was her body and her choice.

That's not something I could fathom but that's just my opinion.

I agree, it's a very difficult topic and there's no easy answers. I'd just like abortion to be safe, legal and rare. The Dutch (who seem to get so much right) seem to have figured out how to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, and they didn't do it by listening to religious instruction.

Sorry is that an "I agree that women should have the right to abortions up to the day of delivery?" I'm not being insincere I'm just curious as to how you square the idea of "bodily autonomy" with what I presume is the desire not to see babies aborted at near full term.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 02, 2018, 02:12:34 AM
Quote from: GJL on May 01, 2018, 09:49:30 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people. If given the option I would most definitely vote no. My wife and I were unable to have children so we adopted. One of our youngsters birth mom was raped. We now have one of our greatest gifts. Loves to play hurling, sing, play soccer, Irish dance play guitar you name it he's trying his hand at it. This little man is so handsome and kind he makes life worth living. We couldn't imagine life without our wee ones.

Brilliant post. Vote No.

+1
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:13:31 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
You can provide a link to this of course?

Because you wouldn't want to have a reputation for just spouting nonsense - not that I'm saying you have, not at all...  ;D

Haha.....not at all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728


This article was shared on the "in her shoes" facebook page (which I follow)

The rebuttal was posted by Gerald Allen on the "repeal vrs save the 8th debate" facebook page (which I also follow) on April 27th.

(The "debate" page is no such thing.....its firmly NO page. I had originally liked it thinking I was going to hear 2 reasonable sides to the argument)
Interesting that you have't posted the contents of this "rebuttal".

Having read over the relevant articles and Claire Malone's blog, the No campaign haven't a leg to stand on, as Claire Malone's story holds up just fine.

But what a typical intervention from John McGuirk - claiming he's not accusing somebody of lying while doing exactly that. A real charmer, that fella.

And in the process, adding to the already mountainous pile of mendacious propaganda and fake news coming from the No side.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 02, 2018, 02:20:36 AM
Re: fake news, media coverage etc... Is it not fair to say this referendum is a simple yes or no?

Do you really need to be told or swayed which way to vote? Doesn't your conscience /morals tell you? I'd no need for anyone else to influence how I would vote, if I could.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:25:31 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 02, 2018, 01:12:59 AM

Unfortunately some people confuse abortion with necessary medical intervention – at present, with the Eight Amendment in place, an expectant mother cannot legally be denied life-saving treatment.

No, they don't.

Can you please make a case as to why a pregnant woman should be denied necessary medical treatment?

You may refer to the case of Michelle Harte, who was denied treatment for cancer because she was pregnant.

Cork University Hospital staff advised her to have an abortion, but could not carry it out because of the 8th Amendment.

During the two months it took for her to arrange an abortion in England, her cancer spread to her brain.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/goreyguardian/news/abortion-nightmare-for-cancer-sufferer-michelle-27340507.html
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 02, 2018, 02:28:16 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:13:31 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
You can provide a link to this of course?

Because you wouldn't want to have a reputation for just spouting nonsense - not that I'm saying you have, not at all...  ;D

Haha.....not at all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728


This article was shared on the "in her shoes" facebook page (which I follow)

The rebuttal was posted by Gerald Allen on the "repeal vrs save the 8th debate" facebook page (which I also follow) on April 27th.

(The "debate" page is no such thing.....its firmly NO page. I had originally liked it thinking I was going to hear 2 reasonable sides to the argument)
Interesting that you have't posted the contents of this "rebuttal".

Having read over the relevant articles and Claire Malone's blog, the No campaign haven't a leg to stand on, as Claire Malone's story holds up just fine.

But what a typical intervention from John McGuirk - claiming he's not accusing somebody of lying while doing exactly that. A real charmer, that fella.

And in the process, adding to the already mountainous pile of mendacious propaganda and fake news coming from the No side.

Well I didnt want to be accused of cherry picking comments off a facebook post so I figured youd take a peek for yourself if you were interested enough in seeing what was being said.  Looks like her blog posts during pregnancy are at completely at odds with her Irish Time interview. Now it looks like (again according to the Facebook page) that her blog has been take down. Someone has screenshots, which if authentic, completely contradict her IT interview


I dont know who John McGuirk is......I have lived in the States for close to 30 years

I dont have a vote, but would vote yes if I had the choice.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:29:03 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 02, 2018, 02:20:36 AM
Re: fake news, media coverage etc... Is it not fair to say this referendum is a simple yes or no?

Do you really need to be told or swayed which way to vote? Doesn't your conscience /morals tell you? I'd no need for anyone else to influence how I would vote, if I could.
You either take democracy seriously or you dont.

Demoracy is about making an informed choice based on facts.

The No side don't take democracy seriously, because their campaign is based on lies.

It has to be, by definition, because the facts are strongly against them.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:44:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 02:28:16 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:13:31 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
You can provide a link to this of course?

Because you wouldn't want to have a reputation for just spouting nonsense - not that I'm saying you have, not at all...  ;D

Haha.....not at all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728


This article was shared on the "in her shoes" facebook page (which I follow)

The rebuttal was posted by Gerald Allen on the "repeal vrs save the 8th debate" facebook page (which I also follow) on April 27th.

(The "debate" page is no such thing.....its firmly NO page. I had originally liked it thinking I was going to hear 2 reasonable sides to the argument)
Interesting that you have't posted the contents of this "rebuttal".

Having read over the relevant articles and Claire Malone's blog, the No campaign haven't a leg to stand on, as Claire Malone's story holds up just fine.

But what a typical intervention from John McGuirk - claiming he's not accusing somebody of lying while doing exactly that. A real charmer, that fella.

And in the process, adding to the already mountainous pile of mendacious propaganda and fake news coming from the No side.

Well I didnt want to be accused of cherry picking comments off a facebook post so I figured youd take a peek for yourself if you were interested enough in seeing what was being said.  Looks like her blog posts during pregnancy are at completely at odds with her Irish Time interview. Now it looks like (again according to the Facebook page) that her blog has been take down. Someone has screenshots, which if authentic, completely contradict her IT interview


I dont know who John McGuirk is......I have lived in the States for close to 30 years

I dont have a vote, but would vote yes if I had the choice.

They aren't at odds.

They are the words of a woman with a very serious medical condition who experienced all sorts of conflicting emotions after finding herself pregnant, as is perfectly understandable.

It's rather unsurprising that McGuirk, who gives all the indications that he has never experienced a genuine human emotion in his life, would attempt to twist her words to suit his own cynical agenda.

The key point is that, far from what the No campaign have been spinning, she wasn't entitled to an abortion under Irish law unless her situation worsened to one of an immediate threat of death.

Luckily for her, that didn't happen.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728

QuoteHer GP, Dr Miles Deas, contacted Prof Charles Gallagher in St Vincent's University Hospital (SVUH) respiratory department on July 28th last year, asking: "If it is deemed too much of a risk for the patient to continue with the pregnancy . . . would it be appropriate for a termination of pregnancy to occur within Ireland?"

At SVUH, Ms Malone's lung function was found "adequate" though her pregnancy was judged "high risk". She was referred to Prof Kevin Walsh, consultant cardiologist at the Mater hospital, and to Prof Mary Higgins, consultant obstetrician at the National Maternity Hospital (NMH).

I was sent home after two days to basically get on with it. Emotionally I was a wreck
In the Mater, "cardiology scanned my heart and said there was no immediate change so I wasn't entitled to a termination".
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 02, 2018, 02:49:06 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:44:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 02:28:16 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:13:31 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
You can provide a link to this of course?

Because you wouldn't want to have a reputation for just spouting nonsense - not that I'm saying you have, not at all...  ;D

Haha.....not at all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728


This article was shared on the "in her shoes" facebook page (which I follow)

The rebuttal was posted by Gerald Allen on the "repeal vrs save the 8th debate" facebook page (which I also follow) on April 27th.

(The "debate" page is no such thing.....its firmly NO page. I had originally liked it thinking I was going to hear 2 reasonable sides to the argument)
Interesting that you have't posted the contents of this "rebuttal".

Having read over the relevant articles and Claire Malone's blog, the No campaign haven't a leg to stand on, as Claire Malone's story holds up just fine.

But what a typical intervention from John McGuirk - claiming he's not accusing somebody of lying while doing exactly that. A real charmer, that fella.

And in the process, adding to the already mountainous pile of mendacious propaganda and fake news coming from the No side.

Well I didnt want to be accused of cherry picking comments off a facebook post so I figured youd take a peek for yourself if you were interested enough in seeing what was being said.  Looks like her blog posts during pregnancy are at completely at odds with her Irish Time interview. Now it looks like (again according to the Facebook page) that her blog has been take down. Someone has screenshots, which if authentic, completely contradict her IT interview


I dont know who John McGuirk is......I have lived in the States for close to 30 years

I dont have a vote, but would vote yes if I had the choice.

They aren't at odds.

They are the words of a woman with a very serious medical condition who experienced all sorts of conflicting emotions after finding herself pregnant, as is perfectly understandable.

It's rather unsurprising that McGuirk, who gives all the indications that he has never experienced a genuine human emotion in his life, would attempt to twist her words to suit his own cynical agenda.

The key point is that, far from what the No campaign have been spinning, she wasn't entitled to an abortion under Irish law unless her situation worsened to one of an immediate threat of death.

Luckily for her, that didn't happen.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728

QuoteHer GP, Dr Miles Deas, contacted Prof Charles Gallagher in St Vincent's University Hospital (SVUH) respiratory department on July 28th last year, asking: "If it is deemed too much of a risk for the patient to continue with the pregnancy . . . would it be appropriate for a termination of pregnancy to occur within Ireland?"

At SVUH, Ms Malone's lung function was found "adequate" though her pregnancy was judged "high risk". She was referred to Prof Kevin Walsh, consultant cardiologist at the Mater hospital, and to Prof Mary Higgins, consultant obstetrician at the National Maternity Hospital (NMH).

I was sent home after two days to basically get on with it. Emotionally I was a wreck
In the Mater, "cardiology scanned my heart and said there was no immediate change so I wasn't entitled to a termination".

Believe whatever you want....go back now like a good lad and post up what she said in real time on her blog.......if you can find it, because mysteriously its been deleted....wonder why

Im all in favor of repeal. Theres plenty enough real tragedies they can share on "in her shoes" without resorting to made up tragedies
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:54:20 AM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people. If given the option I would most definitely vote no. My wife and I were unable to have children so we adopted. One of our youngsters birth mom was raped. We now have one of our greatest gifts. Loves to play hurling, sing, play soccer, Irish dance play guitar you name it he's trying his hand at it. This little man is so handsome and kind he makes life worth living. We couldn't imagine life without our wee ones.
The Adoption Rights Alliance "strongly advocates for the repeal of the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution."

http://adoption.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/ARA-Position-Paper-on-8th-Amendment.pdf

QuoteFor our organisation, the Eighth Amendment represents the
latest incarnation of the control that was exerted over the thousands of women and girls who
were forced to relinquish their children for adoption and who were incarcerated in Mother
and Baby Homes, Magdalene Laundries and other institutions. Since 1983, all pregnant
women in Ireland have been denied the right to choose whether to proceed with a
pregnancy, just as adopted people's natural mothers were denied any choice.

ARA is opposed in the strongest possible terms to the notion that adoption represents a
viable alternative to abortion. We firmly recognise the right of a woman to choose not to
proceed with a pregnancy. Adoption should only ever be utilised in situations where a child
genuinely needs a home, and not as a mechanism whereby women and girls are forced to
carry to term and then relinquish the child to a closed, secret system.

QuoteARA has consistently campaigned against the continuation of adoptions under Ireland's
closed, secret system. The adopted people in contact with us are strong, resilient individuals,
and many were raised by loving adoptive parents. However, this does not justify the impact
of being adopted under a closed, secret system, because the consequences are life-long,
inter-generational and permanent. Even today in so-called modern Ireland, adopted people
are denied even the most basic rights, which are taken for granted by the rest of the
population. We are denied access to our birth certificates and adoption files and are made
to feel like criminals for daring to challenge the system. Those of us who have lived under
Ireland's regime know that no matter how loving an adoptive family might be, closed, secret
adoption is not a child-centred mechanism, and it is certainly not an alternative to
reproductive choice for women.

We strongly advocate the repeal of the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 03:02:43 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 02:49:06 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:44:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 02:28:16 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 02:13:31 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 01, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Both sides are spreading bvllshit, but the No side seem to have an huge edge in that regard

The  "In Her Shoes" page had a whopper just this past week where a featured posters story completely contradicted what she had posted on social media when she was pregnant
You can provide a link to this of course?

Because you wouldn't want to have a reputation for just spouting nonsense - not that I'm saying you have, not at all...  ;D

Haha.....not at all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728


This article was shared on the "in her shoes" facebook page (which I follow)

The rebuttal was posted by Gerald Allen on the "repeal vrs save the 8th debate" facebook page (which I also follow) on April 27th.

(The "debate" page is no such thing.....its firmly NO page. I had originally liked it thinking I was going to hear 2 reasonable sides to the argument)
Interesting that you have't posted the contents of this "rebuttal".

Having read over the relevant articles and Claire Malone's blog, the No campaign haven't a leg to stand on, as Claire Malone's story holds up just fine.

But what a typical intervention from John McGuirk - claiming he's not accusing somebody of lying while doing exactly that. A real charmer, that fella.

And in the process, adding to the already mountainous pile of mendacious propaganda and fake news coming from the No side.

Well I didnt want to be accused of cherry picking comments off a facebook post so I figured youd take a peek for yourself if you were interested enough in seeing what was being said.  Looks like her blog posts during pregnancy are at completely at odds with her Irish Time interview. Now it looks like (again according to the Facebook page) that her blog has been take down. Someone has screenshots, which if authentic, completely contradict her IT interview


I dont know who John McGuirk is......I have lived in the States for close to 30 years

I dont have a vote, but would vote yes if I had the choice.

They aren't at odds.

They are the words of a woman with a very serious medical condition who experienced all sorts of conflicting emotions after finding herself pregnant, as is perfectly understandable.

It's rather unsurprising that McGuirk, who gives all the indications that he has never experienced a genuine human emotion in his life, would attempt to twist her words to suit his own cynical agenda.

The key point is that, far from what the No campaign have been spinning, she wasn't entitled to an abortion under Irish law unless her situation worsened to one of an immediate threat of death.

Luckily for her, that didn't happen.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heart-patient-unable-to-get-abortion-as-life-not-at-immediate-risk-1.3475728

QuoteHer GP, Dr Miles Deas, contacted Prof Charles Gallagher in St Vincent's University Hospital (SVUH) respiratory department on July 28th last year, asking: "If it is deemed too much of a risk for the patient to continue with the pregnancy . . . would it be appropriate for a termination of pregnancy to occur within Ireland?"

At SVUH, Ms Malone's lung function was found "adequate" though her pregnancy was judged "high risk". She was referred to Prof Kevin Walsh, consultant cardiologist at the Mater hospital, and to Prof Mary Higgins, consultant obstetrician at the National Maternity Hospital (NMH).

I was sent home after two days to basically get on with it. Emotionally I was a wreck
In the Mater, "cardiology scanned my heart and said there was no immediate change so I wasn't entitled to a termination".

Believe whatever you want....go back now like a good lad and post up what she said in real time on her blog.......if you can find it, because mysteriously its been deleted....wonder why

Im all in favor of repeal. Theres plenty enough real tragedies they can share on "in her shoes" without resorting to made up tragedies

"Believe whatever you want"

"Like a good lad"

Deary me, mate, this isn't the pub.

This is clearly all desperately confusing for you.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 02, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Still waiting for you to post it up....tick....tick...tick...tick....tick
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Still waiting for you to post it up....tick....tick...tick...tick....tick
Yourself and the No campaign have been caught out rotten, mate.

Just accept it.

It's a familiar pattern for you - you've a notorious reputation on this forum for playing fast and loose with the truth.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 02, 2018, 06:43:56 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 12:03:22 PM


A 12 week old foetus cannot survive outside the womb. That's what I mean by surviving independently, as you well know.

We do know what conscious experience a 12 week old foetus has.

The answer is none whatsoever.

It's hard to have a debate when one side is so intent on spreading lies.

A child cannot survive outside the womb until they are at least double 12 weeks even then its touch and go and usually goes hand and hand with lifelong anatomical and cerebal consequences, your probably looking to around 35weeks for a child to have an equal footing as one that goes full term, ( actually probably later statistically). Should the limit be increased to 24 weeks or later if your basing on survival outside the womb?
A child also needs constant round the clock care for the first 6-9months, it tapers off gradually but children need constant care/watching to at least 2 years, they could not survive on their own steam.

And I'm Sorry to tell you this Sid I don't know who told you that but you are wrong about a conscious experience, it is you distorting facts so you may want to reconsider your position based on actual facts.

No one know has any idea about a conscious experience of anyone or anything else, its guess work. Indeed its not thought that children are conscious until they are 6months old.

But no one really knows who or what is conscious, some scientists argue that consciousness of humans is an illusion while some philosopher argue that bacteria, plants, even rocks or maybe even a smart phone may have a conscious experience.

So if thats what your criteria for survival is based on then you need to reconsider your rationale for discarding of your old smartphone or eating spuds.


My criteria is based on what there is little debate about, namely
.... that a unique human life has formed that wants to survive....
and therefore should be allowed to as much as posibble.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 02, 2018, 07:47:19 AM
A lot of talk about medical emergencies. Read a breakdown yesterday that 97% of abortions in the UK were unrelated to medical issues and 36% of these women had at least one previous abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 02, 2018, 07:59:17 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 02, 2018, 07:47:19 AM
A lot of talk about medical emergencies. Read a breakdown yesterday that 97% of abortions in the UK were unrelated to medical issues and 36% of these women had at least one previous abortion.
and your point is?

Ireland is most definitely not the UK
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 02, 2018, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people. If given the option I would most definitely vote no. My wife and I were unable to have children so we adopted. One of our youngsters birth mom was raped. We now have one of our greatest gifts. Loves to play hurling, sing, play soccer, Irish dance play guitar you name it he's trying his hand at it. This little man is so handsome and kind he makes life worth living. We couldn't imagine life without our wee ones.

Congrats to you and your wife on what sounds like a wonderful boy you're raising, but just let me check on thing.

No to abortion for victims of rape so people who can't have kids can adopt them? Are you f**king serious?!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: tyrone girl on May 02, 2018, 09:35:53 AM
I hit the wrong poll option. I hit yes but should have hit the yes but cant vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 02, 2018, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Still waiting for you to post it up....tick....tick...tick...tick....tick
Yourself and the No campaign have been caught out rotten, mate.

Just accept it.

It's a familiar pattern for you - you've a notorious reputation on this forum for playing fast and loose with the truth.

Still having trouble reading?   Im in favor of a Yes vote.....Ive already said it 3 times, and this number 4 in case you dont know what number comes after 3.

The Times article is completely at odds with her blog postings and her blog has been taken down

If you think different, good for you
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.
If a woman has the appalling crime of rape inflicted on her, is made pregnant as a result, and subsequently decides to carry the pregnancy to full term and puts the baby up for adoption, that is her choice and the right choice for her.

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.

Unless they leave the country, obviously.

Somebody having an adopted child that they love that was the product of a rape, is not a reason for this state to force rape victims to be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

The dirty little secret the No side have is that they are extremely glad that Britain offers acess to abortion, because it's a safety valve. That way the No side can simply keep their fingers stuck in their ears and whistle away to themselves, pretending that there is no problem with how pregnant women are treated in Ireland.

I have a real problem with this line.

Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people.

Women are people too, you know.

It's time we start treating them like people, not vessels.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:30:26 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Still waiting for you to post it up....tick....tick...tick...tick....tick
Yourself and the No campaign have been caught out rotten, mate.

Just accept it.

It's a familiar pattern for you - you've a notorious reputation on this forum for playing fast and loose with the truth.

Still having trouble reading?   Im in favor of a Yes vote.....Ive already said it 3 times, and this number 4 in case you dont know what number comes after 3.

The Times article is completely at odds with her blog postings and her blog has been taken down

If you think different, good for you
Stop trolling, please, mate, for everybody's sake.

You contribute nothing whatsoever of substance to the forum and have made the US politics thread unreadable due to your trolling.

You're clearly intent on doing similar to this thread.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 02, 2018, 10:56:09 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.

Isn't it? Then why go on about his adoption story? The fact he gets to play happy families because one person chose not to terminate (or perhaps didn't have the option to) has absolutely no relevance on the next case

If the point was to demonstrate that babies that might otherwise be aborted can grow up to live joyous, happy and fulfilling lives, what point was it trying to counter?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 02, 2018, 10:59:46 AM
Yes 39%
No 37%
Undecided 24%.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 02, 2018, 11:06:49 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 02, 2018, 10:59:46 AM
Yes 39%
No 37%
Undecided 24%.

Where's that Rossfan?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 02, 2018, 11:15:06 AM
GAABOARD poll on this thread of those who have a vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 02, 2018, 11:18:07 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 02, 2018, 11:15:06 AM
GAABOARD poll on this thread of those who have a vote.

Ah right. So, worthless then :)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 02, 2018, 11:46:37 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:30:26 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Still waiting for you to post it up....tick....tick...tick...tick....tick
Yourself and the No campaign have been caught out rotten, mate.

Just accept it.

It's a familiar pattern for you - you've a notorious reputation on this forum for playing fast and loose with the truth.

Still having trouble reading?   Im in favor of a Yes vote.....Ive already said it 3 times, and this number 4 in case you dont know what number comes after 3.

The Times article is completely at odds with her blog postings and her blog has been taken down

If you think different, good for you
Stop trolling, please, mate, for everybody's sake.

You contribute nothing whatsoever of substance to the forum and have made the US politics thread unreadable due to your trolling.

You're clearly intent on doing similar to this thread.

I made an accurate statement about an IT article that was posted on "in her shoes" and you jumped down my throat and accused me of making shit up.

Sorry if the facts about the incostincies between the  blog and the IT article dont fit your agenda

Why was the blog taken down.....this is now the 3rd or 4th time Ive asked you and am still waiting for an answer

If you dont like my posts......feel free to ignore them, but dont expect me to hide in the corner if you accuse me of lying and fabricating stuff
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 11:46:37 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:30:26 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Still waiting for you to post it up....tick....tick...tick...tick....tick
Yourself and the No campaign have been caught out rotten, mate.

Just accept it.

It's a familiar pattern for you - you've a notorious reputation on this forum for playing fast and loose with the truth.

Still having trouble reading?   Im in favor of a Yes vote.....Ive already said it 3 times, and this number 4 in case you dont know what number comes after 3.

The Times article is completely at odds with her blog postings and her blog has been taken down

If you think different, good for you
Stop trolling, please, mate, for everybody's sake.

You contribute nothing whatsoever of substance to the forum and have made the US politics thread unreadable due to your trolling.

You're clearly intent on doing similar to this thread.

I made an accurate statement about an IT article that was posted on "in her shoes" and you jumped down my throat and accused me of making shit up.

Sorry if the facts about the incostincies between the  blog and the IT article dont fit your agenda

Why was the blog taken down.....this is now the 3rd or 4th time Ive asked you and am still waiting for an answer

If you dont like my posts......feel free to ignore them, but dont expect me to hide in the corner if you accuse me of lying and fabricating stuff

Just hide in the corner and continue to lie and fabricate stuff, then.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Billys Boots on May 02, 2018, 01:16:25 PM
Saw this today:

QuoteHere are nine reasons why I will be voting yes, Yes, YES .... (by Brian Barrington )
1 - Ireland is a civilised country in all areas except one: our abortion laws. Check out the attached map below. Ireland's abortion laws put it in the same category as bastions of human rights like Somalia, Afghanistan, the Congo and Papua New Guinea. Saudi Arabian women have more abortion rights than Irish women. It really is that bad. It is long past time to rectify this wrong and to end our national shame.
2 - The Irish Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists is in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment, as is the Irish Midwife's Association. The professional view these doctors and midwives is that they cannot do their jobs properly thanks to the 8th amendment. They have to deal every day with the terrible consequences of this badly thought out constitutional amendment. Are we really so sure that we know better than they do what is needed? What argument can we make that we know better? Let's see.
3 - According to the Irish constitution a fully grown woman has an "equal right to life" with an embryo. The text reads: "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right." This is a straightforward obscenity. The right to life of a fully grown woman clearly vastly exceeds that of an embryo and to say otherwise, as the Irish constitution currently does, is outrageous. It is not just an insult to Irish women – as an Irish man I am insulted to have something this stupid in my constitution.
4 - The 8th Amendment is an outright lie. It is easy to see that Irish people do not actually believe that mothers and unborn children have an "equal right to life" – we showed this when voted overwhelmingly to give women the explicit right to travel abroad for pregnancy terminations. We might as well have put in our constitution: "We don't really mind if you have an abortion as long as you go to England – just don't do it on holy Irish soil". The national hypocrisy is stunning. The fact that we enshrine in our constitution the right of women to travel to have abortions demonstrates that we do not actually think that an unborn child has an "equal right to life" as the mother. This is why the 8th Amendment is an outright lie.
5 - If you put lies in your constitution it is not just symbolic. It has bad real-world consequences. In the Y case a pregnant rape victim was denied an abortion in Ireland. She was a foreign national so she could not do what many Irish women do in that situation (i.e. go to England). After the woman went on hunger strike an Irish court ordered her to be force fed. Another proud day for Ireland courtesy of the 8th amendment.
In 2010 an Irish woman was denied an abortion despite being diagnosed with fatal foetal syndrome. The cruelty and inhumanity of this simply beggars belief. Imagine a law that COERCES women with fatal foetal abnormalities to continue pregnancy and undergo child birth against their will? After being abandoned by her own country this woman had to go to England of course. At least she was able to do so.
If Savita Halappanavar had been granted an abortion when she requested it she would be alive now, but due to our abortion laws she was denied it and that is why she is dead now.
If you put dumb shit in your constitution then this is the kind of thing that happens.
The 8th has inflicted unnecessary suffering on countless women in Ireland. It is barbaric. It degrades us as a people. It is a cancer in our constitution and it needs to be removed. By voting to remove the amendment we can in a small way apologise to the women who have suffered and take steps to ensure that appalling events like these do not happen again. One thing is for sure: if we disgrace ourselves and vote No then appalling events like these WILL happen again. Knowing this, how can anyone is good conscience vote No?
6 - Now, it may be that after the X case (Remember that? The attorney general slapped a travel injunction on a pregnant fourteen year old rape victim in regard to travelling to England for an abortion. Another disgrace for our nation thanks to this sham provision in our constitution) a judge eventually interpreted the 8th amendment to in this instance privilege the life of the mother over that of the unborn. But this "interpretation" contradicts the plain meaning of the text, which explicitly says that their right to life is "equal" and therefore that one should not be privileged over the other. There is a good reason why the judge, when dealing with the concrete reality of the X case, had to interpret the text to mean something that it does not say: the text of the 8th amendment is ABSURD – it is so obviously absurd that no reasonable person can take what it actually says seriously, so it therefore needs to be ignored (i.e. "interpreted" to mean something that it does not actually say). Well, are we really going to leave this absurdity in our Constitution? Why not just take the stupid thing out, since its symbolism is grotesque and its real-world consequences even worse?
7- Our favoured means of ignoring the cruelty of the 8th amendment involves hopping on a Ryanair flight to London. Time to end this national farce. How ironic and humiliating that we Irish rely on Britain, our old colonial master, to solve for us the problem that we don't have the courage and maturity to face for ourselves. Now we have the opportunity to show at least a modicum of courage and maturity and begin dealing with the problem ourselves. I really hope that we don't make a holy show of ourselves and vote No.
8 - Do the No people ever pause to think how nasty their campaign has been? Think for a moment what it is like for women who have suffered late term miscarriages being forced to look at those No posters day after day, week after week, month after month. Does this ever cross the minds of the No people? Do they even care? They have lost the argument. They have no argument so their campaign relies almost entirely on what is really a form of emotional bullying.
While we're at it, many foreigners like to use Ireland as a poster-boy for their social agenda and fund these campaigns – are we not a bit tired of Ireland being used as a pawn in somebody else's culture war? They don't have to deal with the consequences. We do.
9 - The decrepit Catholic hierarchy is telling you to vote No. These are the same people who tell you that it's a mortal sin to wear a condom. We all ignore them about contraception so why should we pay any attention to them about this? After the child abuse scandals what authority do they have to lecture the rest of us about morality? They will never face the problems, heartaches and complexities that other people face in regard to this. They will never have to go through pregnancy and birth. They will never struggle with fertility problems. They will never have a miscarriage. They will never have to be a parent to a child. They will never have to decide whether to have a termination or not. Are these (supposedly) celibate men really the people to be lecturing the rest of us about this? They are entitled to their opinion, of course; and the rest of us are entitled to ignore it.
It's really very simple: we need to delete this poisonous amendment from our Constitution.
We can do it now.
Or we can wait another few years and do it then.
Do you really want to go through all this again?
We might as well just do it now.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 02, 2018, 01:50:14 PM
I'll be voting yes for a few reasons - which were mostly covered by BB's post.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 02, 2018, 01:50:59 PM
As above.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 02, 2018, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 11:46:37 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:30:26 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 02, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Still waiting for you to post it up....tick....tick...tick...tick....tick
Yourself and the No campaign have been caught out rotten, mate.

Just accept it.

It's a familiar pattern for you - you've a notorious reputation on this forum for playing fast and loose with the truth.

Still having trouble reading?   Im in favor of a Yes vote.....Ive already said it 3 times, and this number 4 in case you dont know what number comes after 3.

The Times article is completely at odds with her blog postings and her blog has been taken down

If you think different, good for you
Stop trolling, please, mate, for everybody's sake.

You contribute nothing whatsoever of substance to the forum and have made the US politics thread unreadable due to your trolling.

You're clearly intent on doing similar to this thread.

I made an accurate statement about an IT article that was posted on "in her shoes" and you jumped down my throat and accused me of making shit up.

Sorry if the facts about the incostincies between the  blog and the IT article dont fit your agenda

Why was the blog taken down.....this is now the 3rd or 4th time Ive asked you and am still waiting for an answer

If you dont like my posts......feel free to ignore them, but dont expect me to hide in the corner if you accuse me of lying and fabricating stuff

Just hide in the corner and continue to lie and fabricate stuff, then.

Lol....keep it up
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 02, 2018, 02:27:46 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 02, 2018, 01:50:59 PM
As above.

Ditto. Very well put in all honesty.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 02, 2018, 02:37:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.
If a woman has the appalling crime of rape inflicted on her, is made pregnant as a result, and subsequently decides to carry the pregnancy to full term and puts the baby up for adoption, that is her choice and the right choice for her.

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.

Unless they leave the country, obviously.

Somebody having an adopted child that they love that was the product of a rape, is not a reason for this state to force rape victims to be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

The dirty little secret the No side have is that they are extremely glad that Britain offers acess to abortion, because it's a safety valve. That way the No side can simply keep their fingers stuck in their ears and whistle away to themselves, pretending that there is no problem with how pregnant women are treated in Ireland.

I have a real problem with this line.

Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people.

Women are people too, you know.

It's time we start treating them like people, not vessels.

I agree.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 02, 2018, 02:39:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.

The Adoption Alliance's stance on pro-choice posted a few pages ago makes sobering reading for anyone who is using adoption to explain away voting No, though.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 02, 2018, 04:10:23 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 02, 2018, 02:37:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.
If a woman has the appalling crime of rape inflicted on her, is made pregnant as a result, and subsequently decides to carry the pregnancy to full term and puts the baby up for adoption, that is her choice and the right choice for her.

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.

Unless they leave the country, obviously.

Somebody having an adopted child that they love that was the product of a rape, is not a reason for this state to force rape victims to be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

The dirty little secret the No side have is that they are extremely glad that Britain offers acess to abortion, because it's a safety valve. That way the No side can simply keep their fingers stuck in their ears and whistle away to themselves, pretending that there is no problem with how pregnant women are treated in Ireland.

I have a real problem with this line.

Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people.

Women are people too, you know.

It's time we start treating them like people, not vessels.

I agree.

That said, this vote is going to be a very personal one for everyone and I have no problem with Baile An Tuaigh giving his own personal reason for his preference. I don't find it persuasive on a general level, but as an explanation of where he is at on this, it seems valid enough.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 02, 2018, 10:04:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:27:43 AM

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.


What's the situation with rape under the proposed new legislation? Am I correct in saying that unless the woman presents before 12 weeks, no abortion will be allowed? Or is there an additional clause?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 02, 2018, 11:02:00 PM
Interesting. Only looking at who can vote its 27 for yes, 23 for No and 14 undecided. It's not very scientific but convinced me that I wasn't wrong when I said no could win this.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 02, 2018, 11:07:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 02, 2018, 11:02:00 PM
Interesting. Only looking at who can vote its 27 for yes, 23 for No and 14 undecided. It's not very scientific but convinced me that I wasn't wrong when I said no could win this.

Christ.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 02, 2018, 11:13:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 02, 2018, 11:07:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 02, 2018, 11:02:00 PM
Interesting. Only looking at who can vote its 27 for yes, 23 for No and 14 undecided. It's not very scientific but convinced me that I wasn't wrong when I said no could win this.

Christ.

  :D
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 12:15:58 AM
Why is eejit hole calling on the Lord?
Is he in trouble or dying or what?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 12:44:49 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 12:15:58 AM
Why is eejit hole calling on the Lord?
Is he in trouble or dying or what?

You are a child in an adult's body. And a petty child at that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 03, 2018, 06:50:01 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 02, 2018, 01:16:25 PM
Saw this today:

QuoteHere are nine reasons why I will be voting yes, Yes, YES .... (by Brian Barrington )
1 - Ireland is a civilised country in all areas except one: our abortion laws. Check out the attached map below. Ireland's abortion laws put it in the same category as bastions of human rights like Somalia, Afghanistan, the Congo and Papua New Guinea. Saudi Arabian women have more abortion rights than Irish women. It really is that bad. It is long past time to rectify this wrong and to end our national shame.
2 - The Irish Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists is in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment, as is the Irish Midwife's Association. The professional view these doctors and midwives is that they cannot do their jobs properly thanks to the 8th amendment. They have to deal every day with the terrible consequences of this badly thought out constitutional amendment. Are we really so sure that we know better than they do what is needed? What argument can we make that we know better? Let's see.
3 - According to the Irish constitution a fully grown woman has an "equal right to life" with an embryo. The text reads: "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right." This is a straightforward obscenity. The right to life of a fully grown woman clearly vastly exceeds that of an embryo and to say otherwise, as the Irish constitution currently does, is outrageous. It is not just an insult to Irish women – as an Irish man I am insulted to have something this stupid in my constitution.
4 - The 8th Amendment is an outright lie. It is easy to see that Irish people do not actually believe that mothers and unborn children have an "equal right to life" – we showed this when voted overwhelmingly to give women the explicit right to travel abroad for pregnancy terminations. We might as well have put in our constitution: "We don't really mind if you have an abortion as long as you go to England – just don't do it on holy Irish soil". The national hypocrisy is stunning. The fact that we enshrine in our constitution the right of women to travel to have abortions demonstrates that we do not actually think that an unborn child has an "equal right to life" as the mother. This is why the 8th Amendment is an outright lie.
5 - If you put lies in your constitution it is not just symbolic. It has bad real-world consequences. In the Y case a pregnant rape victim was denied an abortion in Ireland. She was a foreign national so she could not do what many Irish women do in that situation (i.e. go to England). After the woman went on hunger strike an Irish court ordered her to be force fed. Another proud day for Ireland courtesy of the 8th amendment.
In 2010 an Irish woman was denied an abortion despite being diagnosed with fatal foetal syndrome. The cruelty and inhumanity of this simply beggars belief. Imagine a law that COERCES women with fatal foetal abnormalities to continue pregnancy and undergo child birth against their will? After being abandoned by her own country this woman had to go to England of course. At least she was able to do so.
If Savita Halappanavar had been granted an abortion when she requested it she would be alive now, but due to our abortion laws she was denied it and that is why she is dead now.
If you put dumb shit in your constitution then this is the kind of thing that happens.
The 8th has inflicted unnecessary suffering on countless women in Ireland. It is barbaric. It degrades us as a people. It is a cancer in our constitution and it needs to be removed. By voting to remove the amendment we can in a small way apologise to the women who have suffered and take steps to ensure that appalling events like these do not happen again. One thing is for sure: if we disgrace ourselves and vote No then appalling events like these WILL happen again. Knowing this, how can anyone is good conscience vote No?
6 - Now, it may be that after the X case (Remember that? The attorney general slapped a travel injunction on a pregnant fourteen year old rape victim in regard to travelling to England for an abortion. Another disgrace for our nation thanks to this sham provision in our constitution) a judge eventually interpreted the 8th amendment to in this instance privilege the life of the mother over that of the unborn. But this "interpretation" contradicts the plain meaning of the text, which explicitly says that their right to life is "equal" and therefore that one should not be privileged over the other. There is a good reason why the judge, when dealing with the concrete reality of the X case, had to interpret the text to mean something that it does not say: the text of the 8th amendment is ABSURD – it is so obviously absurd that no reasonable person can take what it actually says seriously, so it therefore needs to be ignored (i.e. "interpreted" to mean something that it does not actually say). Well, are we really going to leave this absurdity in our Constitution? Why not just take the stupid thing out, since its symbolism is grotesque and its real-world consequences even worse?
7- Our favoured means of ignoring the cruelty of the 8th amendment involves hopping on a Ryanair flight to London. Time to end this national farce. How ironic and humiliating that we Irish rely on Britain, our old colonial master, to solve for us the problem that we don't have the courage and maturity to face for ourselves. Now we have the opportunity to show at least a modicum of courage and maturity and begin dealing with the problem ourselves. I really hope that we don't make a holy show of ourselves and vote No.
8 - Do the No people ever pause to think how nasty their campaign has been? Think for a moment what it is like for women who have suffered late term miscarriages being forced to look at those No posters day after day, week after week, month after month. Does this ever cross the minds of the No people? Do they even care? They have lost the argument. They have no argument so their campaign relies almost entirely on what is really a form of emotional bullying.
While we're at it, many foreigners like to use Ireland as a poster-boy for their social agenda and fund these campaigns – are we not a bit tired of Ireland being used as a pawn in somebody else's culture war? They don't have to deal with the consequences. We do.
9 - The decrepit Catholic hierarchy is telling you to vote No. These are the same people who tell you that it's a mortal sin to wear a condom. We all ignore them about contraception so why should we pay any attention to them about this? After the child abuse scandals what authority do they have to lecture the rest of us about morality? They will never face the problems, heartaches and complexities that other people face in regard to this. They will never have to go through pregnancy and birth. They will never struggle with fertility problems. They will never have a miscarriage. They will never have to be a parent to a child. They will never have to decide whether to have a termination or not. Are these (supposedly) celibate men really the people to be lecturing the rest of us about this? They are entitled to their opinion, of course; and the rest of us are entitled to ignore it.
It's really very simple: we need to delete this poisonous amendment from our Constitution.
We can do it now.
Or we can wait another few years and do it then.
Do you really want to go through all this again?
We might as well just do it now.


Firstly repeated use of hyperbolic adjectives like absrub, dumb, stupid, disgrace etc not does make something so, that is merely a subjective interpretation. Using this language  strategically for humour and emotion is a good method for gaining support for your points but does not make your point correct...

1. Just because countries that are deemed to be "civilised" legalise abortion does not make it ok or right.And I didnt see a map but I'm pretty sure it will show that Ireland is "behind" China, Russia, Germany, USA, Turkey, Cambodia, & Rwanda in terms of abortion law and therefore less civilised than these countries were genocide was perpetratedin the recent past. Also by this definition of civilised North Korea is obiviously more so than South Korea.
Folks, Ireland is a soverign country with a self determination for its people, make your own decision on your values and rationale not what France, UK or Holland are doing, what a Guardian opinion pieces say is right, or what the latest social media trend is.

2&5. It is unfortunate that medical professionals are put in this position but they are the best qualified people to do this and are actually put in equally difficult positions frequently regarding best treatment options in life or death situations, the case of Savita is a tragic one I agree and its obviously easy to say with hindsight that it was the wrong decision not to abort the pregnancy.

3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever.

9. The position of particular institutions should be irrelevant to anyone who is trying to make a logical argument or decision. Otherwise its just an attempt to guilt by association with an "unfashionable" organisation.

8. Ever looked at how nasty the Yes campaign has been? There are a good number of reasonable campaigners but it also seems that every turnaround those who are on the No side are being depicted as inhumane, cruel, backward dinosaurs who cant keep up with modern trends, stifle progress, cant think for themselves but instead blindly follow what the bishops instructions are. There is a term for this... its called Ad hominen and should be dead in the water for anyone who adheres to reason but it introduces a strong emotion element to arguments that people cannot see past sometimes.

Now there are extremes scenarios pushed forward by both sides... Namely cases of rape, terminal fetal abnormalities v Downs Syndrome, Cleft Lip or even "Wrong gender" abortions on the other.

However the vast majority (did I see over 90%?) of abortions that will be carried out under proposed legislation will be carried out on perfectly healthy babies produced from consensual sex and therefore this is what the discussion should focus on. And within that context it seems that argument boils down to a rather simple:
.....Right to Life of the baby v the Right of Choice for the mother.......
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Esmarelda on May 03, 2018, 08:17:03 AM
I have to largely agree with Joe. I'm voting Yes but that list is embarrassing. It lowers the Yes side's case to the equivalent of what I've come to expect from the No side.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Ty4Sam on May 03, 2018, 09:42:55 AM
Can someone explain to me, is there special circumstances, and if so what are they, that come with repealing the 8th? I take it someone just can't walk off the street and get an abortion, is there a timeframe, medical problems etc.?

I don't have a vote so not interested in getting viewpoints, opinions etc, just the facts.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

AZ - I'm not putting words in your mouth....that's why I used the question mark.

I suppose we fundamentally disagree on whether the constitution is the correct place to legislate for this issue.

I'd just like to restate that voting No will not stop one termination of the type that is already happening. Women will still go to England. Pills will still be imported. The only people who will suffer are the cases where the woman is too sick or distressed or poor to travel to Britain. I understand most people have sympathy in the difficult cases like health complications and rape but are troubled by the elective terminations. That's very understandable but it's only the difficult cases that will or may not be able to go to Britain that you'll stop by voting No.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:10:55 PM
Over Half of the FF parliamentary party will canvas for a No vote.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/more-than-half-of-fianna-fil-parliamentary-party-backing-no-vote-in-referendum-36870462.html
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:10:55 PM
Over Half of the FF parliamentary party will canvas for a No vote.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/more-than-half-of-fianna-fil-parliamentary-party-backing-no-vote-in-referendum-36870462.html
And bears shit in the woods.
No would need a much higher % of FF to win.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:52:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:10:55 PM
Over Half of the FF parliamentary party will canvas for a No vote.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/more-than-half-of-fianna-fil-parliamentary-party-backing-no-vote-in-referendum-36870462.html
And bears shit in the woods.
No would need a much higher % of FF to win.

You dont think a similar % in FG will be the same?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 05:29:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:52:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:10:55 PM
Over Half of the FF parliamentary party will canvas for a No vote.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/more-than-half-of-fianna-fil-parliamentary-party-backing-no-vote-in-referendum-36870462.html
And bears shit in the woods.
No would need a much higher % of FF to win.

You dont think a similar % in FG will be the same?
I think FG are different on social issues but that is just my impression
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 12:09:26 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

https://extra.ie/2018/04/28/news/irish-news/abortion-poll-yes-side-no-side

Next time use Google if you don't accept broadly known facts.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 04, 2018, 12:33:21 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

Young people are generally less responsible and more influenced by fads. The main exception was Brexit.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 12:34:25 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 04, 2018, 12:33:21 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

Young people are generally less responsible and more influenced by fads. The main exception was Brexit.

You are really ratcheting up the nonsense to 11 now.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:12:46 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

AZ - I'm not putting words in your mouth....that's why I used the question mark.

I suppose we fundamentally disagree on whether the constitution is the correct place to legislate for this issue.

I'd just like to restate that voting No will not stop one termination of the type that is already happening. Women will still go to England. Pills will still be imported. The only people who will suffer are the cases where the woman is too sick or distressed or poor to travel to Britain. I understand most people have sympathy in the difficult cases like health complications and rape but are troubled by the elective terminations. That's very understandable but it's only the difficult cases that will or may not be able to go to Britain that you'll stop by voting No.

Law on its own is not fundamentally about preventing things happening, that is law enforcement. Law is about drawing a line in the sand to say that this is not ok to do in this society.
Law enforcement is a different issue, frequently a law is difficult to enforce/prevent such as traffic offences, but that doesn't make it ok to carry them out and it is certainly no reason to get rid of speed limits.

This vote is not about whether or not you think it is practical to stop abortions taking place, this is vote about whether or not it is ok to end a unique human life with no justification.

I agree that a No vote will unlikely cause the current rate to drop, it will probably still increase but a Yes vote will cause it to skyrocket as the legal line that existed will have disappeared and abortion will have become normalized in society as has happened in other countries which have abortion on request.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hound on May 04, 2018, 07:36:13 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 12:09:26 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

https://extra.ie/2018/04/28/news/irish-news/abortion-poll-yes-side-no-side

Next time use Google if you don't accept broadly known facts.
Good man syf. Never resist the chance to be a complete asshole!

"Next time" somebody asks you a simple question why not try and be civil, and give an answer like "here's a link to an interesting article which gives a good breakdown by age, etc..."

But you'll probably blame someone else for you posting like an asshole. If you were a bit more civil, people mightnt wonder if you're touched in the head.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.

Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Esmarelda on May 04, 2018, 10:22:01 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:12:46 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

AZ - I'm not putting words in your mouth....that's why I used the question mark.

I suppose we fundamentally disagree on whether the constitution is the correct place to legislate for this issue.

I'd just like to restate that voting No will not stop one termination of the type that is already happening. Women will still go to England. Pills will still be imported. The only people who will suffer are the cases where the woman is too sick or distressed or poor to travel to Britain. I understand most people have sympathy in the difficult cases like health complications and rape but are troubled by the elective terminations. That's very understandable but it's only the difficult cases that will or may not be able to go to Britain that you'll stop by voting No.

Law on its own is not fundamentally about preventing things happening, that is law enforcement. Law is about drawing a line in the sand to say that this is not ok to do in this society.
Law enforcement is a different issue, frequently a law is difficult to enforce/prevent such as traffic offences, but that doesn't make it ok to carry them out and it is certainly no reason to get rid of speed limits.

This vote is not about whether or not you think it is practical to stop abortions taking place, this is vote about whether or not it is ok to end a unique human life with no justification.

I agree that a No vote will unlikely cause the current rate to drop, it will probably still increase but a Yes vote will cause it to skyrocket as the legal line that existed will have disappeared and abortion will have become normalized in society as has happened in other countries which have abortion on request.
Joe, a woman that wants an abortion will justify it to herself. She may also not view it as a human life. These views will not match everyone else's views of course.

Is there evidence that abortion will "sky rocket"? I think this is one of the main problems facing the Yes side; the fear among the undecided that if the 8th is repealed, that there will be mass abortions. Is there anything to suggest this is the case?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 10:25:52 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.
It won't. 3000 abortions a year happen anyway. The only question is where they happen
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 10:34:05 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 10:25:52 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 04, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

This link seems to be mostly about witches in France Seafoid, says very little about abortion and certainly doesn't mention the frequency or acceptability of it, tho didnt watch all of it.

But anyway say that it was the case and abortion was frequent, legal and accepted in medieval Ireland. Where does that leave the rationale from the Yes side that the current law is outdated? Using that reasoning then shifting position back to an even more outdated standard would be even worse?

I think on the yes side the avoidable death of Savita was the last straw.
If she had known how the system works she could have gone to England. She would still be around.  But she didn't and she is dead.

It was an unfortunate mistake that could and should have be avoided if the guidelines were weighed more to the mother.

Introducing on request abortions tho is not an appropriate or proportional response to this case. And is a cynical use of this woman's death to justify what will be a huge increase in the rate of ending unique human lives.
It won't. 3000 abortions a year happen anyway. The only question is where they happen

And how good the aftercare is. Despite what some fools think, an abortion tends to be a big deal for most people who have one. For many the care shouldn't end with the procedure.

There seems to be a puritanical bent to a lot of northern posters, indeed many of the same people who ridicule the DUP for being backwards.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's absolutely not disingenuous. Removing a constitutional barrier to "introducing abortions on request" is some leap.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

Some fantasists here still think the Dail could go against the wishes of the people and not implement the recommendations they themselves support in the event of a Yes vote, so there is definitely a lack of honesty going round on both sides.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's absolutely not disingenuous. Removing a constitutional barrier to "introducing abortions on request" is some leap.

But Gallsman, that's the proposed legislation. Up to 12 week, abortions to be available without any limits. Or do you think that won't come in? Effectively, this is the people voting on that piece of legislation, because if they vote yes, the Government know there's a popular mandate for the legislation as is. As Syf says, people are codding themselves if they think this referendum will not lead to elective abortions up to 12 weeks, within a matter of months.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 11:05:26 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's not disingenuous, it's a fact. The referendum is about removing the 8th amendment. That's it.

What will happen afterwards is a separate matter though it has been fairly clearly signposted. There's no trojan horse here but there are clearly two separate things happening. I'd suggest a lot of No campaigners/voters problem is with our elected TD's and Senators, a majority of whom appear ready to change the law if the 8th amendment is removed. In a democracy if there's enough of them to stop or change legislation then that will happen.

The 8th amendment is a horrible blunt instrument that has been a disaster since its inception. It has failed to keep abortion out of Ireland and it has failed women. It has to go.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 11:15:15 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's absolutely not disingenuous. Removing a constitutional barrier to "introducing abortions on request" is some leap.

But Gallsman, that's the proposed legislation. Up to 12 week, abortions to be available without any limits. Or do you think that won't come in? Effectively, this is the people voting on that piece of legislation, because if they vote yes, the Government know there's a popular mandate for the legislation as is. As Syf says, people are codding themselves if they think this referendum will not lead to elective abortions up to 12 weeks, within a matter of months.

Proposed legislation is just that - proposed.

12 weeks is half the time that abortion is generally available in the UK. It can take half that before people even realise they're pregnant. Use of the phrase "abortion on demand" is absolute bullshit and vines from the minds of people who think everyone just decides willy nilly that they'll pop down for an abortion. Next stop (it's been used here before) is "people will just use it as contraception"
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 11:18:15 AM
Seanie, it is disingenuous. To say 'The law won't change if the 8th Amendment is removed' implies that this is simply some sort of unconnected event. The referendum being removed ALLOWS the proposed law to be enacted. It's almost cause and effect.

Telling someone that repealing the 8th won't lead to 12 week elective abortions is either being deliberately disingenuous, or is avoiding the consequence of their vote. Most Yes voters, by far, want to see 12 week elective abortions in my view, otherwise they are in serious danger of watching the law of unintended consequences. Semantics about what the wording of the constitution will look like post referendum is just that. Semantics. The truth is that the proposed legislation will be enacted unless the referendum is defeated.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 11:18:48 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 11:15:15 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's absolutely not disingenuous. Removing a constitutional barrier to "introducing abortions on request" is some leap.

But Gallsman, that's the proposed legislation. Up to 12 week, abortions to be available without any limits. Or do you think that won't come in? Effectively, this is the people voting on that piece of legislation, because if they vote yes, the Government know there's a popular mandate for the legislation as is. As Syf says, people are codding themselves if they think this referendum will not lead to elective abortions up to 12 weeks, within a matter of months.

Proposed legislation is just that - proposed.

12 weeks is half the time that abortion is generally available in the UK. It can take half that before people even realise they're pregnant. Use of the phrase "abortion on demand" is absolute bullshit and vines from the minds of people who think everyone just decides willy nilly that they'll pop down for an abortion. Next stop (it's been used here before) is "people will just use it as contraception"

So you think the proposed legislation will not be enacted?

Edit, I meant to say I agree with you about 'abortion on demand' and 'use it as contraception'. Abortion is not a trivial matter, and I don't think anyone would ever do it lightly. However, I use the term elective abortions and I think it's accurate for the situation proposed re the 12 weeks. It's obviously still a terrible choice and decision to make, but it is still elective.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 04, 2018, 11:20:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Government  called on to publish draft legislation before the referendum so people would have the full picture before voting on Article 40/3/3?
We now know what the proposed Legislation is if the Constitution is changed so we're not voting in a vacuum as it were.
While technically the voters are only voting on whether to change 40/3/3 there is a bigger picture associated with it.
If we vote to change will the Dáil pass the proposed legislation?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 11:26:07 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 04, 2018, 11:20:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Government  called on to publish draft legislation before the referendum so people would have the full picture before voting on Article 40/3/3?
We now know what the proposed Legislation is if the Constitution is changed so we're not voting in a vacuum as it were.
While technically the voters are only voting on whether to change 40/3/3 there is a bigger picture associated with it.
If we vote to change will the Dáil pass the proposed legislation?

Yes and yes. That's exactly my point. Whether you are a Yes or No voter is up to yourself obviously, but it's not a vote in a vacuum. There is cause and effect at play here.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 11:53:09 AM
No I think it will be enacted but I would not be surprised to see the issue drawn out.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 04, 2018, 12:22:33 PM
I suspect the 12 weeks legislation will indeed be enacted if the Referendum passes.
Most of SF plus lefties of all sorts = 35 votes at least plus the Cabinet and Junior members another 30.
So they only need 15 of the other 93 to back it then.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 04, 2018, 01:24:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 04, 2018, 12:22:33 PM
I suspect the 12 weeks legislation will indeed be enacted if the Referendum passes.
Most of SF plus lefties of all sorts = 35 votes at least plus the Cabinet and Junior members another 30.
So they only need 15 of the other 93 to back it then.
Wait till the TDs analyse the no votes in their constituency?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 04, 2018, 04:45:24 PM
If when the proposed legislation is enacted it will de facto represent the majority wish of the electorate, since that's what we elect governments for. If the electorate wishes to change its mind on the legislation, there will be a general election in due course.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 04:55:07 PM
Why are the anti-choice nutters so congenitally incapable of teling the truth?
Quote
https://www.newstalk.com/Master-of-the-Rotunda-Maternity-Hospital-warns-prolife-posters-factually-inaccurate

Pro-life posters that say a foetus can kick and yawn at nine weeks are factually incorrect, according to the Master of the Rotunda Maternity Hospital.

Speaking to Newstalk's Lunchtime Live, Professor Fergal Malone noted that a "yawn is an inhalation of breath" and as such is impossible for a foetus - which is surrounded by fluid in the womb.

The Professor also noted that the notion of a foetus kicking or having "any such conscious movement" after nine weeks gestation is misleading.

He said the posters are causing "extreme distress" among pregnant women.

The Rotunda Hospital was forced to call the Gardaí after a group of campaigners picketed in front of the hospital with posters featuring graphic imagery.

Professor Malone said the protesters were "holding them up to the faces of people walking through the hospital."

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 05:13:40 PM
Why would anti abortion campaigners be outside a maternity hospital. Donkeys.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Crete Boom on May 04, 2018, 05:47:41 PM
Alot of people on here seem to be saying they don't trust who we elect to legislate for abortion?
Does everyone here who doesn't trust the governement we elect vote in general elections? If you do why do you vote if you don't trust elected governments?
If they only way we can or feel we can legislate for major social issues is to have it bound in rigid black and white text in our constituition what is the point in us having a democracy at all?
I am in the undecided camp but I don't feel very comfortable with this we can't trust our elected officials to legislate on a major social issues so we need to have rigid text in a constitution to police a major social issue!!!

Other observations I have is the campaign reminds me of Brexit and the American presidential election where the No side is taking a very simple targeted lets have a revoloution against the government/establishment that have made our lives a misery, take back our country, with striking stats that are complete lies etc.. etc.. , and the Yes side is kind of wishy washy rambling set of reasons, all logical and valid but seem limp in soundbite terms to the No side!!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Esmarelda on May 04, 2018, 05:48:15 PM
Matt Cooper on asking a FF TD if FF lead the next government, with over half their TDs canvassing for a NO vote, won't they just change the legislation to reflect this position.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 06:08:50 PM
Quote from: Crete Boom on May 04, 2018, 05:47:41 PM


Other observations I have is the campaign reminds me of Brexit and the American presidential election where the No side is taking a very simple targeted lets have a revoloution against the government/establishment that have made our lives a misery, take back our country, with striking stats that are complete lies etc.. etc.. , and the Yes side is kind of wishy washy rambling set of reasons, all logical and valid but seem limp in soundbite terms to the No side!!!
Facts aren't sexy in comparison to lies.

Most people voting Yes will be doing so on the basis of facts.

Most people voting No will not be doing so on the basis of facts, but on feelings and emotion.

You can't persuade people who vote on the basis of feelings rather than facts that they are wrong by throwing facts at them.

This is as true of this referendum as it is with Brexit and Trump.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 11:18:15 AM
Seanie, it is disingenuous. To say 'The law won't change if the 8th Amendment is removed' implies that this is simply some sort of unconnected event. The referendum being removed ALLOWS the proposed law to be enacted. It's almost cause and effect.

Telling someone that repealing the 8th won't lead to 12 week elective abortions is either being deliberately disingenuous, or is avoiding the consequence of their vote. Most Yes voters, by far, want to see 12 week elective abortions in my view, otherwise they are in serious danger of watching the law of unintended consequences. Semantics about what the wording of the constitution will look like post referendum is just that. Semantics. The truth is that the proposed legislation will be enacted unless the referendum is defeated.

But not exactly. Trying to pretend nothing will change of there's a yes vote is disingenuous but the referendum is simply about removing or retaining the 8th Amendment. As has been said before, if a majority in Dáil Éireann want more restrictive laws at a future time they will be in a position to do so.

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).

Again one other thing I want to be clear about. No one or very few people want to see abortions at any stage. The reality though is that they are happening and we need to face those facts rather than keeping our heads in the sand.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 04, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
im in favor of a Yes vote, but dont have a vote.

If the comments on here are anything to go by, the bullying and mocking of the No supporters could very well result in a large hidden No vote, and another surprise like Brexit and Trump.

I think the Yes camp should be nervous by anything less than a 15 % lead in the polls
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 07:45:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 04, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
im in favor of a Yes vote, but dont have a vote.

If the comments on here are anything to go by, the bullying and mocking of the No supporters could very well result in a large hidden No vote, and another surprise like Brexit and Trump.

I think the Yes camp should be nervous by anything less than a 15 % lead in the polls

..you are told about No campaigners heckling a maternity ward and you talk about bullying by Yes voters. Christ.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 04, 2018, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 04, 2018, 07:45:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 04, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
im in favor of a Yes vote, but dont have a vote.

If the comments on here are anything to go by, the bullying and mocking of the No supporters could very well result in a large hidden No vote, and another surprise like Brexit and Trump.

I think the Yes camp should be nervous by anything less than a 15 % lead in the polls

..you are told about No campaigners heckling a maternity ward and you talk about bullying by Yes voters. Christ.

That's not what I'm referring to but believe what ever you want

(Out of curiosity, what exactly were they doing outside the maternity ward?  Who were they "heckling"? Expectant mothers? Were they holding those offensive signs? )
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however

The statistic is inaccurate because it leaves out the 1 in 6 pregnancies which end in a miscarriage.

But here's the thing - the rate of abortion in the UK is irrelevant - in every single case, it is, thankfully, the woman's right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

In every single case, the woman has the right to choose the correct decision for her. That's as it should be, and as it should be in Ireland too.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 05, 2018, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however

The statistic is inaccurate because it leaves out the 1 in 6 pregnancies which end in a miscarriage.

But here's the thing - the rate of abortion in the UK is irrelevant - in every single case, it is, thankfully, the woman's right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

In every single case, the woman has the right to choose the correct decision for her. That's as it should be, and as it should be in Ireland too.

Fair enough, never considered that, should be 1 in 6 so.

On your other point, tbh I think speaking in absolute terms (or what sounds like absolute terms at least) such as that hard to understand. If a woman decided to abort at 36 weeks would that also be her choice? I don't think it would be good for society for such a thing to be allowed (even though it would be a rare rare occurrence)

No matter what your viewpoint, an absolute view on such a complex issue is incorrect imo - otherwise if you're a no voter, you believe that anything after the initial conception is murder and if you're a yes voter,  anything before birth is the mother's decision.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 05, 2018, 01:26:21 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 05, 2018, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however

The statistic is inaccurate because it leaves out the 1 in 6 pregnancies which end in a miscarriage.

But here's the thing - the rate of abortion in the UK is irrelevant - in every single case, it is, thankfully, the woman's right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

In every single case, the woman has the right to choose the correct decision for her. That's as it should be, and as it should be in Ireland too.

Fair enough, never considered that, should be 1 in 6 so.

On your other point, tbh I think speaking in absolute terms (or what sounds like absolute terms at least) such as that hard to understand. If a woman decided to abort at 36 weeks would that also be her choice? I don't think it would be good for society for such a thing to be allowed (even though it would be a rare rare occurrence)

No matter what your viewpoint, an absolute view on such a complex issue is incorrect imo - otherwise if you're a no voter, you believe that anything after the initial conception is murder and if you're a yes voter,  anything before birth is the mother's decision.
The vast majority of abortions happen early in a pregnancy. In England and Wales 90% happen in the first 13 weeks.

I believe the woman should always have the right to choose during the stage where the foetus has no possibility of sentience. The 12 week limit proposed is comfortably within that timeframe. I'd be happy with a longer elective limit, 16 weeks perhaps, but 12 is hell of a lot better than 0.

When the foetus develops viabiity, it becomes a case of trying to balance the rights of the mother and the foetus.

In the rare and unfortunate cases where a woman's health or life is in danger post-viability, it should be then up to medical staff to deliver the best possible care for the mother while making every effort to deliver a healthy baby too if possible.

I think the proposed legislation would be a giant leap forward from what we have now.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 07:59:24 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 04, 2018, 10:22:01 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 04, 2018, 05:12:46 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

AZ - I'm not putting words in your mouth....that's why I used the question mark.

I suppose we fundamentally disagree on whether the constitution is the correct place to legislate for this issue.

I'd just like to restate that voting No will not stop one termination of the type that is already happening. Women will still go to England. Pills will still be imported. The only people who will suffer are the cases where the woman is too sick or distressed or poor to travel to Britain. I understand most people have sympathy in the difficult cases like health complications and rape but are troubled by the elective terminations. That's very understandable but it's only the difficult cases that will or may not be able to go to Britain that you'll stop by voting No.

Law on its own is not fundamentally about preventing things happening, that is law enforcement. Law is about drawing a line in the sand to say that this is not ok to do in this society.
Law enforcement is a different issue, frequently a law is difficult to enforce/prevent such as traffic offences, but that doesn't make it ok to carry them out and it is certainly no reason to get rid of speed limits.

This vote is not about whether or not you think it is practical to stop abortions taking place, this is vote about whether or not it is ok to end a unique human life with no justification.

I agree that a No vote will unlikely cause the current rate to drop, it will probably still increase but a Yes vote will cause it to skyrocket as the legal line that existed will have disappeared and abortion will have become normalized in society as has happened in other countries which have abortion on request.
Joe, a woman that wants an abortion will justify it to herself. She may also not view it as a human life. These views will not match everyone else's views of course.

Is there evidence that abortion will "sky rocket"? I think this is one of the main problems facing the Yes side; the fear among the undecided that if the 8th is repealed, that there will be mass abortions. Is there anything to suggest this is the case?

I was talking about legal justification no reason is required by law, the unborn would have no legal protection. A mother's justification to herself could be "f**k this wean I couldn't be arsed with it", or "cleft lip? don't want the hassle of that we'll abort and try for another one" Such reasons would never stand up to an type of legal justification if the child had even the slightest bit of legal protection.

There is evidence that abortion will skyrocket if you compare the increasing rate of abortion after it is legalized in other countries with similar cultures. The fact that it becomes legal makes it more accessible and means that culturally it becomes more accepted which in turn leads to further relaxing of the law and more abortions. It does level off but at a rate much higher than the current estimates of Irish abortions.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 04, 2018, 04:45:24 PM
If when the proposed legislation is enacted it will de facto represent the majority wish of the electorate, since that's what we elect governments for. If the electorate wishes to change its mind on the legislation, there will be a general election in due course.

eh?... with a minority government that won 25% of the popular vote?
General elections are not single issue plebiscites
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:08:37 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 11:15:15 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 04, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 04, 2018, 08:47:58 AM
Is this the question in the referendum? I though it was to replace the 8th to text that allows the oireachtas to legislate on abortion. Just because there is a yes vote doesn't Change the current law.

Imagine that, omaghjoe paying away without the slightest understanding of the facts. Who'd have thunk it?

Ah here. That's disingenuous. It's pretty obvious what will happen if the referendum is passed. Just because there's a Yes vote doesn't change the current law, however a Yes vote clearly means that the proposed legislation will be brought through the Oireachteas quickly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least be honest about what a Yes vote means in reality.

It's absolutely not disingenuous. Removing a constitutional barrier to "introducing abortions on request" is some leap.

But Gallsman, that's the proposed legislation. Up to 12 week, abortions to be available without any limits. Or do you think that won't come in? Effectively, this is the people voting on that piece of legislation, because if they vote yes, the Government know there's a popular mandate for the legislation as is. As Syf says, people are codding themselves if they think this referendum will not lead to elective abortions up to 12 weeks, within a matter of months.

Proposed legislation is just that - proposed.

12 weeks is half the time that abortion is generally available in the UK. It can take half that before people even realise they're pregnant. Use of the phrase "abortion on demand" is absolute bullshit and vines from the minds of people who think everyone just decides willy nilly that they'll pop down for an abortion. Next stop (it's been used here before) is "people will just use it as contraception"

Lads lads are yous really serious?

We have been told what will happen in the event of a Yes vote, and that is there will be termination allowed up to 12weeks. Not even the most naive person around would believe that legislation will not be introduced, it will...This is a referdum on that legisation as much as it is on a removal of the ammendment

I'm not sure why yous are acting so obtuse about it anyway sure most of ye have expressed a support of unrestricted terminations up to 12weeks and beyond.
Speaking of Brexit, it seems a bit like saying you vote to leaving the EU but not the common market, customs area etc

Of maybe some of ye despite all the  holier than thou posturing yous are actually a wee bit selective with the facts?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:18:43 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 06:08:50 PM
Quote from: Crete Boom on May 04, 2018, 05:47:41 PM


Other observations I have is the campaign reminds me of Brexit and the American presidential election where the No side is taking a very simple targeted lets have a revoloution against the government/establishment that have made our lives a misery, take back our country, with striking stats that are complete lies etc.. etc.. , and the Yes side is kind of wishy washy rambling set of reasons, all logical and valid but seem limp in soundbite terms to the No side!!!
Facts aren't sexy in comparison to lies.

Most people voting Yes will be doing so on the basis of facts.

Most people voting No will not be doing so on the basis of facts, but on feelings and emotion.

You can't persuade people who vote on the basis of feelings rather than facts that they are wrong by throwing facts at them.

This is as true of this referendum as it is with Brexit and Trump.

Everyone on both sides have based their decision on emotion it just depends at the point you bring emotion into your reasoning.

However lets suppose that two arguments from each side have equally well thought out rationale to their position.
On the Yes side it would boil be because you feel that a woman should be able to choose based on empathy for the mother.
On the No side because they feel that an abortion is the ending of a human life and are empathetic to the current child and the potential that the child has.

Most of us feel both of those things unless you demonise the mother as lacking human emotion (which I actually havent heard a lot of tho some to be fair), or you demonise the life growing inside her as sub-human (which is a central theme of the Yes side).
It is factually incorrect to depict either of these things, it is in the truest sense of the word victim blaming.

So for those of us who feel empathetic for both the woman and the child (most of us I hope) we have to decide does the mothers right to choose outweigh the right of the child to life? Or does the right to life of the child outweigh the right of the mother to end that life.

That's what it boils down to folks, it a personal decision but for me its the later


IF someone uses false facts or reasoning on a particular side of an argument it does not mean that there is no rationale argument for that side. we need to to search for the facts and correct rationale. There is no such thing as an opinion based only on facts,to form an opinion you also need rationale, and when it comes to morals like in this case, preference or emotion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:29:31 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 05, 2018, 01:26:21 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 05, 2018, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however

The statistic is inaccurate because it leaves out the 1 in 6 pregnancies which end in a miscarriage.

But here's the thing - the rate of abortion in the UK is irrelevant - in every single case, it is, thankfully, the woman's right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

In every single case, the woman has the right to choose the correct decision for her. That's as it should be, and as it should be in Ireland too.

Fair enough, never considered that, should be 1 in 6 so.

On your other point, tbh I think speaking in absolute terms (or what sounds like absolute terms at least) such as that hard to understand. If a woman decided to abort at 36 weeks would that also be her choice? I don't think it would be good for society for such a thing to be allowed (even though it would be a rare rare occurrence)

No matter what your viewpoint, an absolute view on such a complex issue is incorrect imo - otherwise if you're a no voter, you believe that anything after the initial conception is murder and if you're a yes voter,  anything before birth is the mother's decision.
The vast majority of abortions happen early in a pregnancy. In England and Wales 90% happen in the first 13 weeks.

I believe the woman should always have the right to choose during the stage where the foetus has no possibility of sentience. The 12 week limit proposed is comfortably within that timeframe. I'd be happy with a longer elective limit, 16 weeks perhaps, but 12 is hell of a lot better than 0.

When the foetus develops viabiity, it becomes a case of trying to balance the rights of the mother and the foetus.

In the rare and unfortunate cases where a woman's health or life is in danger post-viability, it should be then up to medical staff to deliver the best possible care for the mother while making every effort to deliver a healthy baby too if possible.

I think the proposed legislation would be a giant leap forward from what we have now.

So is sentince or viability your base point.

If its viability a pregnancy is viable well before the 12 week mark

You me or no one else have no idea when sentience occurs in anyone or anything else. But it is an interesting point, a gun to the head would be cool as the victim feels nothing? That ok? A person in a coma feels nothing and indeed they are reliant on others to coming out of the coma, is it to switch their support system off and let them die even if they are guaranteed to come out of the coma in a healthy state?
Sentience is a very vague concept and a strange base point for someone who purports to deal only in facts...
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:41:10 AM
So I did a bit of my own research and maths on this...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2016

2016
England and Wales births: 696 271
E&W abortions: 185 596

That works out at 1 in 3.75

Now the miscarriage question is a complicated one, for a start it varies hugely on gestational age and a whole range of other factors for the baby and mother.

https://expectingscience.com/2015/08/26/lies-damned-lies-and-miscarriage-statistics/

The first 5/6 weeks the risk is very high and it will likely skew the overall figure, so perhaps that is where the 1 in 6 comes from. However at 6 weeks the fetus seems to average a 10% (1 in 10) chance of miscarriage and tapering off to 5% (1 in 20) at 8 weeks and further decrease as the pregnancy progresses.
Most abortions are carried out between 5-10 weeks when it seems the risk is for the sake of argument probably around 1 in 10. Its likely less but if someone wants to do the math tear away, and also the mothers age of abortions is lower which would mean they are more likely to survive and not to mention the repeat miscarriages from mother who want to have a successful pregnancy. I think it is likely more like 1 in 15 but we will go with the 1 in 10 as a safety factor.

So working that 1 in 10 into the original stats it works out at  1 in 4.16.

I open to corrections of course but all in all the 1 in 4 doesn't look like a gross exaggeration that its depicted.

This is also only one year of course but if someone wants to do a few more years be my guest
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 05, 2018, 08:47:38 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 05, 2018, 01:26:21 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 05, 2018, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however

The statistic is inaccurate because it leaves out the 1 in 6 pregnancies which end in a miscarriage.

But here's the thing - the rate of abortion in the UK is irrelevant - in every single case, it is, thankfully, the woman's right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

In every single case, the woman has the right to choose the correct decision for her. That's as it should be, and as it should be in Ireland too.

Fair enough, never considered that, should be 1 in 6 so.

On your other point, tbh I think speaking in absolute terms (or what sounds like absolute terms at least) such as that hard to understand. If a woman decided to abort at 36 weeks would that also be her choice? I don't think it would be good for society for such a thing to be allowed (even though it would be a rare rare occurrence)

No matter what your viewpoint, an absolute view on such a complex issue is incorrect imo - otherwise if you're a no voter, you believe that anything after the initial conception is murder and if you're a yes voter,  anything before birth is the mother's decision.
The vast majority of abortions happen early in a pregnancy. In England and Wales 90% happen in the first 13 weeks.

I believe the woman should always have the right to choose during the stage where the foetus has no possibility of sentience. The 12 week limit proposed is comfortably within that timeframe. I'd be happy with a longer elective limit, 16 weeks perhaps, but 12 is hell of a lot better than 0.

When the foetus develops viabiity, it becomes a case of trying to balance the rights of the mother and the foetus.

In the rare and unfortunate cases where a woman's health or life is in danger post-viability, it should be then up to medical staff to deliver the best possible care for the mother while making every effort to deliver a healthy baby too if possible.

I think the proposed legislation would be a giant leap forward from what we have now.

Thanks for the reply sid. Rationale like that is easier to understand than the simple "it's her choice" which I hear from the yes campaign and is something that turns me off. For me, the 16 weeks would probably be too high but everyone has to draw the line somewhere
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trileacman on May 05, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
Just a question for the Yes voters, do you see any problem with the large scale abortion of children with abnormalities? I seen a guardian piece lately that said 92% of babies with Down's syndrome were aborted in England since the pre natal screen for Down's syndrome came in. There were also suggestions that a similar pre natal test for aspergers and autism could see a similar discrimination against those conditions.

What's your argument in favour of conditions like that?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 05, 2018, 11:38:12 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 04, 2018, 04:45:24 PM
If when the proposed legislation is enacted it will de facto represent the majority wish of the electorate, since that's what we elect governments for. If the electorate wishes to change its mind on the legislation, there will be a general election in due course.

eh?... with a minority government that won 25% of the popular vote?
General elections are not single issue plebiscites

Wow! I never thought of that.

What the hell are we going to do now that all our laws are invalid because one party doesn't have a majority in the government?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 04:39:43 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 05, 2018, 11:38:12 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 04, 2018, 04:45:24 PM
If when the proposed legislation is enacted it will de facto represent the majority wish of the electorate, since that's what we elect governments for. If the electorate wishes to change its mind on the legislation, there will be a general election in due course.

eh?... with a minority government that won 25% of the popular vote?
General elections are not single issue plebiscites

Wow! I never thought of that.

What the hell are we going to do now that all our laws are invalid because one party doesn't have a majority in the government?

You didn't? I would have thought that obvious TBH

The laws won't be invalid but they in no way represent the wish of the majority  especially on single issues like you were professing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 05, 2018, 05:52:11 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 04:39:43 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 05, 2018, 11:38:12 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 04, 2018, 04:45:24 PM
If when the proposed legislation is enacted it will de facto represent the majority wish of the electorate, since that's what we elect governments for. If the electorate wishes to change its mind on the legislation, there will be a general election in due course.

eh?... with a minority government that won 25% of the popular vote?
General elections are not single issue plebiscites

Wow! I never thought of that.

What the hell are we going to do now that all our laws are invalid because one party doesn't have a majority in the government?

You didn't? I would have thought that obvious TBH

The laws won't be invalid but they in no way represent the wish of the majority  especially on single issues like you were professing.

Do Tyrone people have a sarcasm bypass at birth or something?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 05, 2018, 07:10:11 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 05, 2018, 05:52:11 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 04:39:43 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 05, 2018, 11:38:12 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 04, 2018, 04:45:24 PM
If when the proposed legislation is enacted it will de facto represent the majority wish of the electorate, since that's what we elect governments for. If the electorate wishes to change its mind on the legislation, there will be a general election in due course.

eh?... with a minority government that won 25% of the popular vote?
General elections are not single issue plebiscites

Wow! I never thought of that.

What the hell are we going to do now that all our laws are invalid because one party doesn't have a majority in the government?

You didn't? I would have thought that obvious TBH

The laws won't be invalid but they in no way represent the wish of the majority  especially on single issues like you were professing.

Do Tyrone people have a sarcasm bypass at birth or something?
The Ballygawley bypass isn't the only one in the county, you know.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 08, 2018, 04:22:45 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 05, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
Just a question for the Yes voters, do you see any problem with the large scale abortion of children with abnormalities? I seen a guardian piece lately that said 92% of babies with Down's syndrome were aborted in England since the pre natal screen for Down's syndrome came in. There were also suggestions that a similar pre natal test for aspergers and autism could see a similar discrimination against those conditions.

What's your argument in favour of conditions like that?

No one is arguing for that. It's a complete red herring and typical of the misinformation being put about by the No campaign. Under the proposed legislation elective abortions are not available after 12 weeks. As I understand it the test for Down's is only possible around 20 weeks. So there will be no change here in those circumstances.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 08, 2018, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 05, 2018, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however

The statistic is inaccurate because it leaves out the 1 in 6 pregnancies which end in a miscarriage.

But here's the thing - the rate of abortion in the UK is irrelevant - in every single case, it is, thankfully, the woman's right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

In every single case, the woman has the right to choose the correct decision for her. That's as it should be, and as it should be in Ireland too.

Fair enough, never considered that, should be 1 in 6 so.

On your other point, tbh I think speaking in absolute terms (or what sounds like absolute terms at least) such as that hard to understand. If a woman decided to abort at 36 weeks would that also be her choice? I don't think it would be good for society for such a thing to be allowed (even though it would be a rare rare occurrence)

No matter what your viewpoint, an absolute view on such a complex issue is incorrect imo - otherwise if you're a no voter, you believe that anything after the initial conception is murder and if you're a yes voter,  anything before birth is the mother's decision.

Also - not all miscarriages are reported so that would further widen the ratio. It's a completely false claim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 08, 2018, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2018, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 05, 2018, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 04, 2018, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 04, 2018, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 04, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

While we're speaking about things being disingenuous - the "1 in 5" posters by the no campaign are an absolute disgrace. Statistically/factually incorrect and using the comparison of Britain which has vastly more liberal abortion laws that what is proposed for here if there's a yes vote. We have a referendum commission - surely they should have powers to prevent outright lies being peddled. There may be examples on the Yes side but I've not seen them (and I'm biased of course).


When I saw the posters, I assumed that that was bull also so I looked it up and as far as I could see, it's correct. In the last 50 years, there's been ~35m kids born in the UK (according to what looked like the UK CSO website) and 8.7m abortions (according to wiki) so it seems to be legit. I didn't interrogate those figures to any great extent so open to correction on those however

The statistic is inaccurate because it leaves out the 1 in 6 pregnancies which end in a miscarriage.

But here's the thing - the rate of abortion in the UK is irrelevant - in every single case, it is, thankfully, the woman's right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

In every single case, the woman has the right to choose the correct decision for her. That's as it should be, and as it should be in Ireland too.

Fair enough, never considered that, should be 1 in 6 so.

On your other point, tbh I think speaking in absolute terms (or what sounds like absolute terms at least) such as that hard to understand. If a woman decided to abort at 36 weeks would that also be her choice? I don't think it would be good for society for such a thing to be allowed (even though it would be a rare rare occurrence)

No matter what your viewpoint, an absolute view on such a complex issue is incorrect imo - otherwise if you're a no voter, you believe that anything after the initial conception is murder and if you're a yes voter,  anything before birth is the mother's decision.

Also - not all miscarriages are reported so that would further widen the ratio. It's a completely false claim.

Can  you apply some maths to the data like i did above to backup your claim instead of just repeating it? Perhaps you could come up with a figure instead of just saying the 1in4 is wrong.

It seems to me that for 2016 the 1in4 claim isn't to wide of the mark.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trileacman on May 08, 2018, 09:30:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2018, 04:22:45 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 05, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
Just a question for the Yes voters, do you see any problem with the large scale abortion of children with abnormalities? I seen a guardian piece lately that said 92% of babies with Down's syndrome were aborted in England since the pre natal screen for Down's syndrome came in. There were also suggestions that a similar pre natal test for aspergers and autism could see a similar discrimination against those conditions.

What's your argument in favour of conditions like that?

No one is arguing for that. It's a complete red herring and typical of the misinformation being put about by the No campaign. Under the proposed legislation elective abortions are not available after 12 weeks. As I understand it the test for Down's is only possible around 20 weeks. So there will be no change here in those circumstances.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/screening-amniocentesis-downs-syndrome/

Test is carried out between 10-14 weeks. So much for the No side being the ones spreading misinformation.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 08, 2018, 09:43:30 PM
This referendum if it passes will change social life in Ireland. The draconian reproductive  politics that defined the State for all of its life gave us things like the travel to Liverpool, adoption and a very strong sense of duty towards handicapped people. Other countries with abortion don't have as many handicapped people. Especially Protestant countries.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 08, 2018, 09:51:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 08, 2018, 09:43:30 PM
This referendum if it passes will change social life in Ireland. The draconian reproductive  politics that defined the State for all of its life gave us things like the travel to Liverpool, adoption and a very strong sense of duty towards handicapped people. Other countries with abortion don't have as many handicapped people. Especially Protestant countries.

Im in favor of a yes vote, but think you have to give women options especially when their lives are in danger. 

Speaking of adoptions, do they have "open adoptions" in Ireland, where the adoptive parents and birth parents stay in touch and the kids know from an early age that they are part of 2 separate families. I personally know 2 people (one being my cousin) who have this arrangement and it works out great. They usually meet up with the birth parents families once or twice a year and the kids even get to spend time with their other half brothers, sisters, cousins etc.  (Kinda defeats the whole "its not the right time for me to have a baby" argument)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trileacman on May 08, 2018, 10:00:52 PM
https://www.nhs.uk/news/genetics-and-stem-cells/downs-syndrome-qa/ (https://www.nhs.uk/news/genetics-and-stem-cells/downs-syndrome-qa/)

That's the nhs article that says 92% of foetuses with Down's syndrome are currently aborted.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 08, 2018, 11:24:04 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 08, 2018, 10:00:52 PM
https://www.nhs.uk/news/genetics-and-stem-cells/downs-syndrome-qa/ (https://www.nhs.uk/news/genetics-and-stem-cells/downs-syndrome-qa/)

That's the nhs article that says 92% of foetuses with Down's syndrome are currently aborted.

It's a woman's right to choose.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 08, 2018, 11:24:24 PM
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106909728&postcount=1418

QuoteI've just had an x-ray cancelled for two weeks because of this amendment.

I'm clearly not pregnant but the only way round it is for a GP to do a test and sign a form. Like my mum signing a note for school.

This is my health we are talking about and I don't have the right to treatment. I am not even trusted to declare myself not pregnant.

REPEAL THE 8TH NOW

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106913221&postcount=1460

QuoteSo, timing eh?

I've just had my mother come to me in tears with news about my younger brother , who's girlfriend is 27 weeks pregnant. A girl my own kids were delighted about ( my youngest, at 6, is the baby, over both sides of the family so he was chuffed that he wouldn't be anymore).

Myself and the missus had been wondering between us how come they'd had so many scans, seemed a lot over the last while. Apparently they'd noticed a few things and it's all come to a head now, having seen a geneticist and whatever other doctors you see about these things . I don't know the full ins and outs because I'm getting the information 3rd hand but the jist is the baby may survive , and could survive a long life span but it would not be a life worth lioving. A life being kept alive , pretty much just for th awake of not being dead. A life of suffering for both child and parents, aswell as sacrifice for any other children they may have. So now they are looking at the prospect of having to go abroad, to see doctors and specialist and go through all the hurt and suffering all over again , to have a baby induced that won't survive and then have to travel straight back home to deal with it.
These are two kids (relativly speaking I mean. They are mid 20s) and this is their first experience of pregnancy and the effects and stresses of what happens when it goes wrong. "Sorry folks, nothing we can do, here's a plane ticket so someone else can deal with you"


From the beginning I have been pro choice and tbh I assu ed my mother was too, but this resulted in a bit of heated discussion ( not helped that we were both upset) when she went on the "abortion on demand" bit . She didn't seem to see any issue or connection between her upset and what others might be dealing with I their lives just because our family's particular situation is wholly medical.


**** the laws and **** the 8th amendment.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106914307&postcount=1492

QuoteI'm being investigated for cervical cancer due to high grade genotyping cell changes picked up during an abnormal smear.
Before each appointment I have to do a pregnancy test, and If that test were to come back positive, there would be nothing they could do to help me.
In 9 months time it could have progressed to cancer but I still wouldn't be given an option to terminate.
I would be expected to gamble my life that all would be ok and wait to start treatment and testing after the baby is born in 9 months, or else go to the UK for a termination and continue the preventative treatment.
Either way, the Irish healthcare system cannot and will not do anything until I am no longer pregnant.
Luckily I'm not and don't plan to be any time soon but it's a scary thought.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 08, 2018, 11:35:32 PM
Forcing doctors to wait until a woman's life is at risk is not proper healthcare.

It is effective homicide if the woman dies.

That's the reality of the 8th Amendment.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eighth-amendment-causing-uncertainty-for-doctors-gynaecologist-1.3478274

Eighth Amendment causing uncertainty for doctors – gynaecologist

The Eighth Amendment should be repealed as it is causing uncertainty and difficulty for doctors and delaying the treatment of seriously ill women, a gynaecologist has said.

Speaking at the launch of Fine Gael's Yes campaign in Cork, Prof Richard Greene said the amendment and the termination of pregnancy were difficult issues with both sides of the debate offering opposing views as to how it affects practitioners and patients.

"How does it affect me as a clinician, dealing daily with women and I've been working in obstetrics and gynaecology for nearly 30 years? I would say the simplest message I would give about the Eighth Amendment is that it muddies the water –we just don't have clarity about how we should practise," said Prof Greene, who works at University College Cork and Cork University Maternity Hospital.

He offered examples of how the amendment, which guarantees an equal right to life to the mother and child, has an impact on his work at the hospital. He cited the case of a woman he called Sheila, who presented at 13-14 weeks pregnant with her cervix already open in a pregnancy that she really wanted.

"Sheila's water bag around the baby had gone, the chance that this baby would survive is about one or two in 1,000. The chances of that baby's lungs developing are limited and the risk of infection is very significant and we have to achieve another 10 weeks of pregnancy to get her to a viable gestation," he said.

"But I have to actually wait until her life is at risk to do what I know is an appropriate treatment. Yes, the 2013 Protection Of Life in Pregnancy Act will allow me to act once her life is in danger but effectively the Eighth Amendment is dictating a tardiness for both Sheila and myself."

Ectopic pregnancy
Prof Greene also instanced the case of a woman he called Nancy who presented with an ectopic pregnancy, in which the foetus was outside the uterus and unviable. She was also showing signs of bleeding which put her life at risk, he said.

"We discuss it with Nancy and her partner. The decision is made to treat her surgically and remove the pregnancy. There is a heartbeat but they accept that it is the appropriate treatment and it meets all the legal requirements," he said.

"However, I leave her and I am called to come back and counsel her again because she overhears a conversation where one staff member says to the other, 'Is this legal, the baby's heart is still beating?' So the correct choice of care is being questioned because of the Eighth Amendment."

Prof Greene also gave the example of a couple he named Martina and Joe who suffered "a profound loss of pregnancy at 38 weeks when their baby was stillborn" and three subsequent miscarriages before Martina became pregnant again only to discover the baby had anencephaly.

"This baby is not going to survive, it may be born alive but it will not survive. They were devastated given their story but they were absolutely horrified at the idea we had to wait for the pregnancy to proceed and go to the end of the pregnancy, knowing there was nothing to get out of it," he said.

"And the question they were asking was why cannot we do something now so that we can at least try again and hopefully have a child and I saw the horrendous pain they went through. In the end, the Eighth Amendment was adding to their grief and mental trauma.

"They eventually went to the UK for a termination but they are still pained by all of this. They never had a baby to take home, they had no burial place, they had no service with their family. Martina's physical life was not in danger but they are psychologically traumatised because of it."

Prof Greene accepted some believe the floodgates would open if the Eighth Amendment was repealed but the evidence from Eastern Europe and some US states where free contraception and early healthcare were provided suggested the number of terminations can be reduced multifold.

"I trust the women I looked after in pregnancy and I can honestly tell you they make good decisions after much consideration before they undertake a termination. The Eighth Amendment is affecting women and doctors in providing good healthcare and that's why I'm supporting a Yes vote."
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 08, 2018, 11:51:12 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 08, 2018, 10:00:52 PM77
https://www.nhs.uk/news/genetics-and-stem-cells/downs-syndrome-qa/ (https://www.nhs.uk/news/genetics-and-stem-cells/downs-syndrome-qa/)

That's the nhs article that says 92% of foetuses with Down's syndrome are currently aborted.


There may be a bit of misinformation going on here, we never got this test but were offered it at the time and turned it down, as it involved risks to the baby. That carried out at the start of the 2nd trimester (week 14ish??) and  hence past the 12week cutoff. It is carried out by putting a needle through the sac (hence the risk) and testing the babies chromozones.

However now the test can be done earlier to that by examining the mothers blood. Since the babies blood cells cross the placentia into the mother's bloodstream they are there and can be idenitfied by the difference in the DNA. So they are able to tell all the genetic characteristics about the baby from pretty early this will include the Down's Syndrome test.
This can be carried out at week 10 a friend of ours got it dont recently and made the 12week announcement with the sex of the baby and all!
This is well before the 12week cutoff so there is no doubt there would be terminiations carried out for this reason.

And I think Seafoid makes an excellent point about how the nature of society would change as a result
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 08, 2018, 11:56:15 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 08, 2018, 11:35:32 PM
Forcing doctors to wait until a woman's life is at risk is not proper healthcare.

It is effective homicide if the woman dies.

That's the reality of the 8th Amendment.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eighth-amendment-causing-uncertainty-for-doctors-gynaecologist-1.3478274

Eighth Amendment causing uncertainty for doctors – gynaecologist

The Eighth Amendment should be repealed as it is causing uncertainty and difficulty for doctors and delaying the treatment of seriously ill women, a gynaecologist has said.

Speaking at the launch of Fine Gael's Yes campaign in Cork, Prof Richard Greene said the amendment and the termination of pregnancy were difficult issues with both sides of the debate offering opposing views as to how it affects practitioners and patients.

"How does it affect me as a clinician, dealing daily with women and I've been working in obstetrics and gynaecology for nearly 30 years? I would say the simplest message I would give about the Eighth Amendment is that it muddies the water –we just don't have clarity about how we should practise," said Prof Greene, who works at University College Cork and Cork University Maternity Hospital.

He offered examples of how the amendment, which guarantees an equal right to life to the mother and child, has an impact on his work at the hospital. He cited the case of a woman he called Sheila, who presented at 13-14 weeks pregnant with her cervix already open in a pregnancy that she really wanted.

"Sheila's water bag around the baby had gone, the chance that this baby would survive is about one or two in 1,000. The chances of that baby's lungs developing are limited and the risk of infection is very significant and we have to achieve another 10 weeks of pregnancy to get her to a viable gestation," he said.

"But I have to actually wait until her life is at risk to do what I know is an appropriate treatment. Yes, the 2013 Protection Of Life in Pregnancy Act will allow me to act once her life is in danger but effectively the Eighth Amendment is dictating a tardiness for both Sheila and myself."

Ectopic pregnancy
Prof Greene also instanced the case of a woman he called Nancy who presented with an ectopic pregnancy, in which the foetus was outside the uterus and unviable. She was also showing signs of bleeding which put her life at risk, he said.

"We discuss it with Nancy and her partner. The decision is made to treat her surgically and remove the pregnancy. There is a heartbeat but they accept that it is the appropriate treatment and it meets all the legal requirements," he said.

"However, I leave her and I am called to come back and counsel her again because she overhears a conversation where one staff member says to the other, 'Is this legal, the baby's heart is still beating?' So the correct choice of care is being questioned because of the Eighth Amendment."

Prof Greene also gave the example of a couple he named Martina and Joe who suffered "a profound loss of pregnancy at 38 weeks when their baby was stillborn" and three subsequent miscarriages before Martina became pregnant again only to discover the baby had anencephaly.

"This baby is not going to survive, it may be born alive but it will not survive. They were devastated given their story but they were absolutely horrified at the idea we had to wait for the pregnancy to proceed and go to the end of the pregnancy, knowing there was nothing to get out of it," he said.

"And the question they were asking was why cannot we do something now so that we can at least try again and hopefully have a child and I saw the horrendous pain they went through. In the end, the Eighth Amendment was adding to their grief and mental trauma.

"They eventually went to the UK for a termination but they are still pained by all of this. They never had a baby to take home, they had no burial place, they had no service with their family. Martina's physical life was not in danger but they are psychologically traumatised because of it."

Prof Greene accepted some believe the floodgates would open if the Eighth Amendment was repealed but the evidence from Eastern Europe and some US states where free contraception and early healthcare were provided suggested the number of terminations can be reduced multifold.

"I trust the women I looked after in pregnancy and I can honestly tell you they make good decisions after much consideration before they undertake a termination. The Eighth Amendment is affecting women and doctors in providing good healthcare and that's why I'm supporting a Yes vote."

I actually agree did with alot of that. There needs to be a bit of common sense

But why didn't proposed legislation support extra emphasis for the mother health instead of removing all protection to the unborn under 12 weeks?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:07:33 AM
Pro-choice people constantly stress the need for extra support for women.

They have stressed the need for sex education, for access to contraception, and most of all, for the need for proper healthcare.

Anti-choice campaigners engage in weasel words when they talk about suporting women.

They have offered no support whatsoever to women suffering crisis pregnancies since 1983.

How can they when their campaign is based around restricting women's rights and forcing them to continue with pregnancies against their will?

You can't have proper healthcare with the 8th Amendment in place.

And you still can't have proper healthcare without proper legislation to enshrine the right to choose.

Abortion is happening and will continue to happen in Ireland.

The choice is between making it safe and legal with comprehensive follow up care, as it will be without the 8th Amendment and with abortion legislation, or keeping it unregulated and unsafe, as it will continue to be if the 8th Amendment is still in place.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:18:04 AM
https://www.facebook.com/aidancomerfordwriting/

QuoteMy wife and I have an intellectually-disabled daughter. She's autistic. She will never understand consent. If she were ever pregnant, it would be through rape. If that ever happened, would you come to our house and tell us what is best for our child? Because that is what your No vote on May 25th would mean, in practice.

She's on the cusp of puberty. She's terrified of blood. She will scream (and I mean SCREAM) when she's cut, and scream even louder if we approach her to help. That can escalate to scratching, kicking and biting. Any trip to A&E might mean restraint or sedation. Can you imagine what it would be like trying to get her through pregnancy?

She doesn't handle it very well when a DVD gets stuck, so how would she handle labour? Are you going to provide support? Because, at the moment, we're struggling to get speech and language therapy for her.

Do you really think that a zygote's right to grow, for example, trumps our disabled daughter's right not to have her rapist's baby?

If we did decide that she should have an abortion, have you ever travelled with an autistic person like my daughter? To say that it is stressful for all concerned is an understatement. And we might arrive in the UK, to find people outside the clinic, roaring at us, calling us murderers.

And if we didn't make that choice, we would have to raise the baby. You might say that we could "simply" put the baby up for adoption. And how would we explain that a girl who can keen for days over a lost doll?

Before this referendum was called, I was ignorant. I had no idea of the myriad of ways that the eighth amendment has affected Irish women's healthcare and rights. I have heard some truly tragic stories, and I would never dream of standing in any woman's house and forcing my choice upon her, especially when I don't have to live with the consequences of that choice.

If tragedy ever strikes our house, don't offer me your sympathy. Sympathy doesn't buy a lot of nappies in Tesco. And don't offer me your "support." That can only be an empty promise.

The only thing I want from you is to vote YES on May 25th, so that WE - and not YOU - could decide what best to do for OUR family.

***

And if you are still set on voting No, and there's an argument forming in your head about disabled people and abortion...just don't. It isn't relevant to this referendum. And in any case, this is my life, not a point-scoring exercise. Instead, re-read this post with an open heart and an open head.

#TogetherforYes
#Repealthe8th

Please share.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence. 





Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 01:00:16 AM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/medic-savita-died-as-result-of-abortion-laws-461173.html

QuoteSavita Halappanavar died as a direct result of Ireland's abortion laws and not simply because she contracted sepsis, the author of the independent report into her death has said.

Prof Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran made the comment as he said the Eighth Amendment is "not working" and declared his "surprise" it has taken five years since Savita's death for a discussion on its removal to take place.

He was speaking during a meeting of the Oireachtas committee on the future of the amendment. That meeting also heard former master of Holles Street Hospital Dr Peter Boylan call for the immediate repeal of existing laws and warn politicians will face "Groundhog day" if it does not happen.

Prof Arulkumaran said the reality is Savita died because of the abortion laws.

Asked specifically by Independent senator Lynn Ruane "if the presence of the Eighth Amendment cost Savita her life", Prof Arulkumaran said: "It was very clear the things holding the hands of physicians was the legal issue. Anybody, any junior doctor, would have said this is a sepsis condition, we must terminate.

"She did have sepsis. However, if she had a termination in the first days as requested, she would not have had sepsis. We would never have heard of her and she would be alive today," he said.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 09, 2018, 01:14:36 AM
Extract from my post of 02-May:
I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy.

Given the intolerance displayed by Sid Waddell (who cannot seem to accept that people are entitled to hold viewpoints opposite to his) I wonder why anyone would bother participating in a debate on this forum.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 01:30:30 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 09, 2018, 01:14:36 AM
Extract from my post of 02-May:
I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy.

Given the intolerance displayed by Sid Waddell (who cannot seem to accept that people are entitled to hold viewpoints opposite to his) I wonder why anyone would bother participating in a debate on this forum.
This is a debating forum.

You've been unable to rebut any points I or any other Yes supporter has made, and in typical "No" fashion, have resorted to playing the victim card. That's getting very tedious at this stage and is a well worn tactic of the online right when they are losing a debate.

Have a read over your quoted extract there.

What right should you or anybody else have to decide what is a crisis pregnancy and what isn't?

What right should you or anybody else have to decide that a rape victim should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her will? Because that is a direct consequence of your view.

That is what you are advocating.

Your quoted extract denies the right of a suicidal women to a termination.

That is explicitly against a European Court of Human Rights ruling and is specifically against what the Irish people decided in 1992.

That is not conscientious objection.

That is an attempt to dogmatically impose your narrow version of "morality" on everybody else.







Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 08:52:25 AM
I'd say there's a few lads here who would vote No. 1 for Des.

QuoteCouncillor 'glad to stand over' claims linking sex slavery and Hitler to Eighth vote

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/councillor-glad-to-stand-over-claims-linking-sex-slavery-and-hitler-to-eighth-vote-36888250.html

A county councillor has defended claims that the abolition of the Eighth Amendment will lead to sex slavery becoming "normalised".

Leitrim Independent councillor Des Guckian said in an email to his constituents that "Hitler would be very happy with the proposal to abolish the Eighth".
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 10:49:00 AM
Quote from: trileacman on May 08, 2018, 09:30:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2018, 04:22:45 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 05, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
Just a question for the Yes voters, do you see any problem with the large scale abortion of children with abnormalities? I seen a guardian piece lately that said 92% of babies with Down's syndrome were aborted in England since the pre natal screen for Down's syndrome came in. There were also suggestions that a similar pre natal test for aspergers and autism could see a similar discrimination against those conditions.

What's your argument in favour of conditions like that?

No one is arguing for that. It's a complete red herring and typical of the misinformation being put about by the No campaign. Under the proposed legislation elective abortions are not available after 12 weeks. As I understand it the test for Down's is only possible around 20 weeks. So there will be no change here in those circumstances.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/screening-amniocentesis-downs-syndrome/

Test is carried out between 10-14 weeks. So much for the No side being the ones spreading misinformation.

Thank you for the correction. I guess I was mistaken and my memory failed me from my personal experiences. To equate what I said above with "spreading disinformation" is a bit laughable so wind your neck in.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:13:20 AM
Sid, everything you posted about would be the only reasons I would countenance voting YES. I've said all along that those type of circumstances should be legislated for. However I believe this could have been done by rewording the 8th amendment in a more clear fashion.

The bit that I am not comfortable with, and the reason I am voting NO, is because I cannot support 12 week elective abortions. And because of this referendum passing, the Government has told us that is exactly what they are going to push through the Dáil and Seanad.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:13:30 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/down-syndrome-group-calls-for-respect-during-abortion-referendum-1.3366953

QuoteDown Syndrome Ireland (DSI) said the use of the image by Love Both had "come on top of a number of references" in the media recently in which campaigners had referred to people with Down syndrome to present their views.

"This is very disrespectful to both children and adults with Down syndrome and their families. It is also causing a lot of stress to parents. People with Down syndrome should not be used as an argument for either side of this debate."

"Down syndrome Ireland believes that it is up to each individual to make their own decision about which way to vote in the upcoming referendum.

"We are respectfully asking both sides of the campaign debate, all political parties and any other interested groups to stop exploiting children and adults with Down syndrome to promote their campaign views.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:24:07 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:13:20 AM
Sid, everything you posted about would be the only reasons I would countenance voting YES. I've said all along that those type of circumstances should be legislated for. However I believe this could have been done by rewording the 8th amendement in a more clear fashion.

The bit that I am not comfortable with, and the reason I am voting NO, is because I cannot support 12 week elective abortions. And because of this referendum passing, the Government has told us that is exactly what they are going to push through the Dáil and Seanad.
You can't "reword" the 8th Amendment to include certain circumstances you don't like. It is by definition a blunt instrument designed to pay no heed to "hard cases" (every crisis pregnancy is a hard case).

In the current situation it would be unconstitutional to legislate for circumstances such as rape and fatal foetal abnormaility.

Those situations can only be legislated for by abolishing the 8th Amendment.

Anybody who claims to want to make exceptions but who says they will vote No is just making excuses. 

Also, making rape an exception is a terrible idea.

A letter in the Irish Times last week explained in very clear fashion why this is so.

QuoteExpert evidence given to both the Citizen's Assembly and the Joint Oireachtas Committee explicitly stated that it would be impossible to legislate for abortion in cases of rape or incest without further traumatising victims. According to this evidence, any legislation that included a specific clause for rape would mean that victims would need to firstly disclose their assault and secondly to prove on some level that their pregnancy was as a result of sexual violence. As someone who has worked with victims of sexual violence I can tell you this not workable, and the experts agree. Victims of rape are severely traumatised in the days, weeks and months after their attack. Two-thirds of victims never report, and when they do it is most frequently to a friend or family member. Asking a victim to sit across from a professional and disclose their story in order to obtain an abortion is not compassionate and it is not in the best interests of victims. It forces them to relive their horrific experiences and creates unnecessary distress and suffering at a time when they are most vulnerable. If we truly want to show compassion and kindness to rape victims we need to allow them to make that choice in private without forcing them to relive their nightmare.

Niamh Casey, Rathcormac, Co., Cork.





Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:25:57 AM
I'm not making any excuses. I'm voting NO because I don't want the proposed legislation to be passed into law.


If that wasn't on the table, this referendum would pass by a much bigger margin I think.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:28:11 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:25:57 AM
I'm not making any excuses. I'm voting NO because I don't want the proposed legislation to be passed into law.


If that wasn't on the table, this referendum would pass by a much bigger margin I think.
Then you're voting on something other than the question being asked.

So, yes, you very muh are making excuses.

Abortion should be a question for legislators, not the constitution.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 09, 2018, 11:33:41 AM
GAAboarders who can vote
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

It's not though Sid. We've been through this. Do you accept that if this referendum passes, it is almost certain that a law will be introduced to allow for elective abortions up to 12 weeks, along with other measures?

If you accept that, then surely you can see that this referendum is not simply about changing the wording of the constitution, as if it were some semantic exercise. Cause and effect is in play here.

The only realistic way I, as someone who does not agree with elective abortions, can have a voice to stop that happening is to vote NO. I'm aware people will say, well you could lobby politicians to change the law back afterwards, but in reality that is not going to happen.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.

But you cannot do as you say - make amendments to an amendment in the constitution. It's just not practical. The constitution is simply not the vehicle for an issue as nuanced and complex as this. The 12 weeks is cut off point that has been decided on after a huge volume of submissions to both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas committees. It's not perfect of course. Very little to do with this issue is perfect. To me it's a much better regime that we have at present which is just at best typical Irish head in the sand stuff and at worst, as we know, extremely dangerous to women's health and terribly unfair in some other circumstances.

I think on balance it's a common sense approach based on professional best evidence. Sometimes we have to accept some unpleasantness for the greater good. Not repealing the 8th amendment would be criminal in my view.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:57:27 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.

But you cannot do as you say - make amendments to an amendment in the constitution. It's just not practical. The constitution is simply not the vehicle for an issue as nuanced and complex as this. The 12 weeks is cut off point that has been decided on after a huge volume of submissions to both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas committees. It's not perfect of course. Very little to do with this issue is perfect. To me it's a much better regime that we have at present which is just at best typical Irish head in the sand stuff and at worst, as we know, extremely dangerous to women's health and terribly unfair in some other circumstances.

I think on balance it's a common sense approach based on professional best evidence. Sometimes we have to accept some unpleasantness for the greater good. Not repealing the 8th amendment would be criminal in my view.

Why though Seanie? Why can we not REPLACE the 8th amendment with a form of wording which allows for more specific scenarios to be covered, while also recognising the right to life of the unborn child. I'd be okay with saying the life of the unborn child does not supercede the life of the mother. Then legislate for that in the context of the mother's health, fatal foetal abnormalities etc.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:00:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

It's not though Sid. We've been through this. Do you accept that if this referendum passes, it is almost certain that a law will be introduced to allow for elective abortions up to 12 weeks, along with other measures?

If you accept that, then surely you can see that this referendum is not simply about changing the wording of the constitution, as if it were some semantic exercise. Cause and effect is in play here.

The only realistic way I, as someone who does not agree with elective abortions, can have a voice to stop that happening is to vote NO. I'm aware people will say, well you could lobby politicians to change the law back afterwards, but in reality that is not going to happen.

The question you need to ask yourself is:

In order to keep your particular moral view imposed on everybody else;

Are you prepared to accept that rape victims, victims of incest, mothers in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, and mothers whose health is at risk from a pregnancy, will be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against their will?

Are you prepared to accept that women will be denied essential healthcare such as cancer services and basic healthcare such as X-rays, even if if they may not be pregant?







Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities.

If a woman is found to have murdered her 12 week old baby, should that woman be sentenced to prison?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:05:23 PM
If you are telling me that we cannot legislate for rape or incest victims, even under the welfare of the mother viewpoint, then yes I would have to say that I feel the numbers of people pregnant under those circumstances would not outweigh the number of healthy viable babies who would also be terminated under a blanket 12 week law. That's an horrific choice to make though, but if we cannot, as you say, legislate for the specific cases, then we should not legislate in such a way as to make it completely open.

As regards the X-RAY, are there not alternative diagnostics that would not harm a baby? What about MRIs or ultrasounds?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:08:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities.

If a woman is found to have murdered her 12 week old baby, should that woman be sentenced to prison?

No, because I believe someone doing that has emotional extenuating circumstances. However, that does not mean I think we should just allow it as an elective procedure.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 12:18:02 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:08:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities.

If a woman is found to have murdered her 12 week old baby, should that woman be sentenced to prison?

No, because I believe someone doing that has emotional extenuating circumstances. However, that does not mean I think we should just allow it as an elective procedure.

But it'll just happen in the UK then or they'll order pills and take them at home. The only people you're "stopping" are those without the means to travel or import pills.....the poor and those with least support.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 12:21:02 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:57:27 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't understand why some YES proponents are so keen on disassociating themselves from the proposed legislation that will follow this referendum as night follows day. If you're supportive of the referendum, but not supportive of the legislation, then you are codding yourself.

I don't need to make excuses for that.

But you cannot do as you say - make amendments to an amendment in the constitution. It's just not practical. The constitution is simply not the vehicle for an issue as nuanced and complex as this. The 12 weeks is cut off point that has been decided on after a huge volume of submissions to both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas committees. It's not perfect of course. Very little to do with this issue is perfect. To me it's a much better regime that we have at present which is just at best typical Irish head in the sand stuff and at worst, as we know, extremely dangerous to women's health and terribly unfair in some other circumstances.

I think on balance it's a common sense approach based on professional best evidence. Sometimes we have to accept some unpleasantness for the greater good. Not repealing the 8th amendment would be criminal in my view.

Why though Seanie? Why can we not REPLACE the 8th amendment with a form of wording which allows for more specific scenarios to be covered, while also recognising the right to life of the unborn child. I'd be okay with saying the life of the unborn child does not supercede the life of the mother. Then legislate for that in the context of the mother's health, fatal foetal abnormalities etc.

I'm looking for something definitive on this as it seems to be generally accepted that it is not possible and I can understand why, for example you just need to look at the consequences of the 8th amendment that weren't foreseen. There was no internet, no abortion pills etc back then. Medicine has moved on greatly in that time.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:05:23 PM
If you are telling me that we cannot legislate for rape or incest victims, even under the welfare of the mother viewpoint, then yes I would have to say that I feel the numbers of people pregnant under those circumstances would not outweigh the number of healthy viable babies who would also be terminated under a blanket 12 week law. That's an horrific choice to make though, but if we cannot, as you say, legislate for the specific cases, then we should not legislate in such a way as to make it completely open.

As regards the X-RAY, are there not alternative diagnostics that would not harm a baby? What about MRIs or ultrasounds?
In your previous post you ask why the 8th Amendment cannot be reworded to say that the rights of the unborn cannot supercede the rights of the mother.

Firstly, the 8th Amendment already says that.

But in practice, it amounts to giving a 1 week old embryo greater rights than that of an actual born, adult woman. It effectvely strips the woman of her rights during the pregnancy and reduces her to little more than the status of a vessel.

I cannot agree that even if one dislikes the idea of abortion, the situations I mention should be tolerated in order to enforce a particular moral view on everybody else.

The real test of somebody that believes the acceptance of such situations is necessary in order to enforce a particular moral view is; if it was your wife or daughter or sister who had been raped, or had a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality, or a pregnancy in which there was a threat to her health, or found herself unexpectedly pregnant while undergoing cancer treatment and was denied further treatment as a result, and she wanted an abortion but could not get one, how would you react?

Would you tell her "I'm sorry, I can't support you - you should carry the pregnancy to term."

I would venture that in pretty much every situation, they would support their wife, daughter or sister, and that they would feel extremely angry that she had no rights in such a situation.

It's easy to hold a particular moral view if one has an idea that crisis pregnancies are something that can only happen to other people.

Not so easy when you imagine it happening to a loved one.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:05:23 PM
If you are telling me that we cannot legislate for rape or incest victims, even under the welfare of the mother viewpoint, then yes I would have to say that I feel the numbers of people pregnant under those circumstances would not outweigh the number of healthy viable babies who would also be terminated under a blanket 12 week law. That's an horrific choice to make though, but if we cannot, as you say, legislate for the specific cases, then we should not legislate in such a way as to make it completely open.

As regards the X-RAY, are there not alternative diagnostics that would not harm a baby? What about MRIs or ultrasounds?
In your previous post you ask why the 8th Amendment cannot be reworded to say that the rights of the unborn cannot supercede the rights of the mother.

Firstly, the 8th Amendment already says that.

But in practice, it amounts to giving a 1 week old embryo greater rights than that of an actual born, adult woman. It effectvely strips the woman of her rights during the pregnancy and reduces her to little more than the status of a vessel.

I cannot agree that even if one dislikes the idea of abortion, the situations I mention should be tolerated in order to enforce a particular moral view on everybody else.

The real test of somebody that believes the acceptance of such situations is necessary in order to enforce a particular moral view is; if it was your wife or daughter or sister who had been raped, or had a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality, or a pregnancy in which there was a threat to her health, or found herself unexpectedly pregnant while undergoing cancer treatment and was denied further treatment as a result, and she wanted an abortion but could not get one, how would you react?

Would you tell her "I'm sorry, I can't support you - you should carry the pregnancy to term."

I would venture that in pretty much every situation, they would support their wife, daughter or sister, and that they would feel extremely angry that she had no rights in such a situation.

It's easy to hold a particular moral view if one has an idea that crisis pregnancies are something that can only happen to other people.

Not so easy when you imagine it happening to a loved one.

Well said.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:37:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 12:08:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
Question for No voters.

The penalty for abortion in Ireland is 14 years imprisonment.

Do you think this penalty should be upheld if a woman is found to have had an abortion within the state?

Should the woman be imprisoned for 14 years?

No. I don't. But I think a doctor that performs an elective abortion should be disbarred. I'm not trying to trivialise what a woman must be going through to even think about an abortion. I am not one of those who say this will lead to a queue outside the clinics for abortions during lunch hour, or any of that sensationalist nonsense.

All I'm saying, is that as a citizen of this country, I do not want my country to legalise abortions where there is no risk to the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities.

If a woman is found to have murdered her 12 week old baby, should that woman be sentenced to prison?

No, because I believe someone doing that has emotional extenuating circumstances. However, that does not mean I think we should just allow it as an elective procedure.
What about, say, this case?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/11/mother-jailed-life-murder-baby-daughter-lancashire-jennifer-crichton

If a man murders a baby, should he be sentenced to prison?

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 09, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

It's not though Sid. We've been through this. Do you accept that if this referendum passes, it is almost certain that a law will be introduced to allow for elective abortions up to 12 weeks, along with other measures?

If you accept that, then surely you can see that this referendum is not simply about changing the wording of the constitution, as if it were some semantic exercise. Cause and effect is in play here.

The only realistic way I, as someone who does not agree with elective abortions, can have a voice to stop that happening is to vote NO. I'm aware people will say, well you could lobby politicians to change the law back afterwards, but in reality that is not going to happen.
I think this is a very fair and honest assessment of what's happening AZ.
The likes of Sid is trying to disguise what can really happen here. It's what happens all over the world. Elective abortion for whatever reason you want. And let's be brutally honest over 98% of abortions have nothing to do with rape or incest or fetal abnormalities (in countries were elective abortion is legal).
The information is freely available from the Guttmacher Institute which is the abortion industry's own research group!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 02:25:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 09, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

It's not though Sid. We've been through this. Do you accept that if this referendum passes, it is almost certain that a law will be introduced to allow for elective abortions up to 12 weeks, along with other measures?

If you accept that, then surely you can see that this referendum is not simply about changing the wording of the constitution, as if it were some semantic exercise. Cause and effect is in play here.

The only realistic way I, as someone who does not agree with elective abortions, can have a voice to stop that happening is to vote NO. I'm aware people will say, well you could lobby politicians to change the law back afterwards, but in reality that is not going to happen.
I think this is a very fair and honest assessment of what's happening AZ.
The likes of Sid is trying to disguise what can really happen here. It's what happens all over the world. Elective abortion for whatever reason you want. And let's be brutally honest over 98% of abortions have nothing to do with rape or incest or fetal abnormalities (in countries were elective abortion is legal).
The information is freely available from the Guttmacher Institute which is the abortion industry's own research group!

No one is disguising anything. It couldn't be more obvious and out in the open. And it couldn't be more obvious and out in the open that there are two separate things happening here. The vote is about one of them. Other votes that have taken place (last general election/Seanad elections) will decide the other action (when incidentally I didn't hear much talk about this issue).

Another point - the elective abortions you speak of will not be impacted one iota by voting no. What will impact the numbers is supporting organisations like the one you mentioned (had never heard of them before but had a quick look) who want to reduce the numbers of unplanned pregnancies not labelling in derogatory terms such as the abortion industry's own research group .
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 09, 2018, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 09, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Disingenuous. As pointed out beforehand, the Government were asked to bring forth proposed legislation so that people would know what the consequences of voting YES would be. They've done so, I don't like it, and thus I'm voting NO.

I don't need to make excuses for that.
I'm not being disingenuous at all.

The question is on the 8th Amendment and nothing else.

It has been explained ad nauseum that there is no possibility, under the constitution, of legislating for abortion in cases such as rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormality.

There is no possibility under the constitution of a change to the situation where women are denied essential healthcare services such as cancer treatment if they are pregnant, or even basic healthcare such as X-rays (and they don't even have to be pregnant to be denied such - they can be denied it unless and until they prove in writing that they are not pregnant).

Under the present constitutional situation and even with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, Savita Halappanavar would still have died. That's because doctors have to wait for a woman to start dying before they can perform an abortion.

All the above cases are proof of why the 8th Amendment has been so disastrous.

A No vote is a vote for all that to continue.

For it to change, there has be legislation to introduce safe, legal abortion.

It's not though Sid. We've been through this. Do you accept that if this referendum passes, it is almost certain that a law will be introduced to allow for elective abortions up to 12 weeks, along with other measures?

If you accept that, then surely you can see that this referendum is not simply about changing the wording of the constitution, as if it were some semantic exercise. Cause and effect is in play here.

The only realistic way I, as someone who does not agree with elective abortions, can have a voice to stop that happening is to vote NO. I'm aware people will say, well you could lobby politicians to change the law back afterwards, but in reality that is not going to happen.
I think this is a very fair and honest assessment of what's happening AZ.
The likes of Sid is trying to disguise what can really happen here. It's what happens all over the world. Elective abortion for whatever reason you want. And let's be brutally honest over 98% of abortions have nothing to do with rape or incest or fetal abnormalities (in countries were elective abortion is legal).
The information is freely available from the Guttmacher Institute which is the abortion industry's own research group!

FFS  ::)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:25:31 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:25:31 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger

I am talking about the fact that if this referendum is passed, the legislation that will follow can be changed, by the wishes of the electorate by....you guessed it, voting out those who passed the legislation and voting in those with new, more draconian policies. So I wasn't actually talking about the process of the referendum, as I qualified at the start. I was talking about the subsequent democratic process.

You can apologise for your naivety or dishonesty at your leisure.

I wouldn't be walking around with sharp scissors if I were you.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:25:31 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger

I am talking about the fact that if this referendum is passed, the legislation that will follow can be changed, by the wishes of the electorate by....you guessed it, voting out those who passed the legislation and voting in those with new, more draconian policies. So I wasn't actually talking about the process of the referendum, as I qualified at the start. I was talking about the subsequent democratic process.

You can apologise for your naivety or dishonesty at your leisure.

I wouldn't be walking around with sharp scissors if I were you.

Yes... and I was telling you that a parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite.??? People will vote on how a range of issues, for example in West Tyrone if the Shinners somehow managed (they wont) to get the A5 built, sorted out Brexit, and got Stormont going again I MIGHT consider voting for them...(if I had a vote) in spite of their position on this issue!

Not to mention that the current government in the Dail got 25% of the popular vote... not exactly democratic, throw in party whips and proportional representation and single issues soon get mired.

In Indyref many Scots did not vote yes because the case of independence hadn't laid out the economic plan of independence. You cant make a decision if you don't know what the consequences will be.
And the consequences of voting Yes on the 8th have been made clear by the incumbent government and that is that healthy humans will have their lives legally ended without ever having a chance or choice.

Besides I dunno why your trying to reduce this to purely about the question asked, you've expressed support for those consequences havent you? So give your rationale for that instead of trying to narrow the remit on what people should be voting on in this referendum.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:25:31 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger

I am talking about the fact that if this referendum is passed, the legislation that will follow can be changed, by the wishes of the electorate by....you guessed it, voting out those who passed the legislation and voting in those with new, more draconian policies. So I wasn't actually talking about the process of the referendum, as I qualified at the start. I was talking about the subsequent democratic process.

You can apologise for your naivety or dishonesty at your leisure.

I wouldn't be walking around with sharp scissors if I were you.

Yes... and I was telling you that a parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite.??? People will vote on how a range of issues, for example in West Tyrone if the Shinners somehow managed (they wont) to get the A5 built, sorted out Brexit, and got Stormont going again I MIGHT consider voting for them...(if I had a vote) in spite of their position on this issue!

Not to mention that the current government in the Dail got 25% of the popular vote... not exactly democratic, throw in party whips and proportional representation and single issues soon get mired.

In Indyref many Scots did not vote yes because the case of independence hadn't laid out the economic plan of independence. You cant make a decision if you don't know what the consequences will be.
And the consequences of voting Yes on the 8th have been made clear by the incumbent government and that is that healthy humans will have their lives legally ended without ever having a chance or choice.

Besides I dunno why your trying to reduce this to purely about the question asked, you've expressed support for those consequences havent you? So give your rationale for that instead of trying to narrow the remit on what people should be voting on in this referendum.

Correct so you vote for the best collection of your wants/beliefs that are presented.

It's a compromise.

Like this issue.

To pretend it's a black and white issue and adopting and absolutist position is to me the most disingenuous position of all.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 09, 2018, 04:11:28 PM
Bunreacht na hÉireann recognises the fundamental personal rights of citizens and there is no right more fundamental than the right to life. The purpose of the eight amendment to the constitution is to protect and vindicate the right to life of the unborn. The right to life is not just another civil right – because it will be matter of life or death for perfectly healthy human embryos there is every justification for this right to be built into our constitution.

Re. the argument that women should have autonomy over their own bodies and therefore have the right to choose abortion – where one stands on this depends on each person's beliefs and value system. Personally it goes against my beliefs but I am not moralising to others – I'm just trying to explain the "No" side of the argument. I accept that a sizeable proportion of the electorate (of every religious denomination and none) with vote Yes in good conscience. However I would worry that a sizeable number of voters might cast their vote without proper consideration of the consequences of a successful vote for repeal.

From Two Lives, One Love :
Where a seriously ill pregnant woman needs medical treatment which may, as a secondary effect, put the life of her baby at risk, such treatments are always ethically permissible provided every effort has been made to save the life of both the mother and her baby.

It is offensive and wrong for the Yes side to suggest that No voters are / will be denying women healthcare.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 09, 2018, 04:21:34 PM
I am torn on what way to vote on this.

On the one side I think there is a way that we could legislate for the rape cases and the fatal foetal abnormalities etc and still not bring in abortion on tap. It annoys me to see this being used as an argument. Very few people are against abortion in those cases but they will account for less than 1% of abortions so it seems outrageous to legislate for the whole based on those cases.

On the other hand I could easily have been caught out as a young buck in college or after getting a girl in trouble as they say. And if it happened to me (once we'd agreed) i'd have been on the boat over myself, so I'm not against it.

I do believe different people believe life starts at different points in time, a family member recently had a miscarriage and as her dad said "well that baby was alive to us" but looking at it from outside its loss isn't felt as much as if it had been born and died.

I can't ever remember an issue where I dislike both sides as much as I do this issue, both sides are so blinkered and dismissive of the other.

I'm currently leaning towards No, mainly because I wouldn't like abortion to be the contraception of choice, I would like people to take more responsibility and I have no issue with exporting our problem to Britain. But if I did decide to vote Yes it would be because I think people have their own values and beliefs on when life begins.

I wish they had given the option to legislate for the rare cases but still not have abortion
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 04:22:13 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 09, 2018, 04:11:28 PM
Bunreacht na hÉireann recognises the fundamental personal rights of citizens and there is no right more fundamental than the right to life. The purpose of the eight amendment to the constitution is to protect and vindicate the right to life of the unborn. The right to life is not just another civil right – because it will be matter of life or death for perfectly healthy human embryos there is every justification for this right to be built into our constitution.

Re. the argument that women should have autonomy over their own bodies and therefore have the right to choose abortion – where one stands on this depends on each person's beliefs and value system. Personally it goes against my beliefs but I am not moralising to others – I'm just trying to explain the "No" side of the argument. I accept that a sizeable proportion of the electorate (of every religious denomination and none) with vote Yes in good conscience. However I would worry that a sizeable number of voters might cast their vote without proper consideration of the consequences of a successful vote for repeal.

From Two Lives, One Love :
Where a seriously ill pregnant woman needs medical treatment which may, as a secondary effect, put the life of her baby at risk, such treatments are always ethically permissible provided every effort has been made to save the life of both the mother and her baby.

It is offensive and wrong for the Yes side to suggest that No voters are / will be denying women healthcare.

No it is not. It is clearly happening. The vast majority of the medical professionals involved in this field and their professional organisations completely disagree with your statement. Perhaps you are actually correct but the evidence of so many women and the expertise of the professionals is what I'd go along with.

When basic facts like this are being flagrantly denied or contested it's difficult to maintain a conversation.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 04:39:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 09, 2018, 04:22:13 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 09, 2018, 04:11:28 PM
Bunreacht na hÉireann recognises the fundamental personal rights of citizens and there is no right more fundamental than the right to life. The purpose of the eight amendment to the constitution is to protect and vindicate the right to life of the unborn. The right to life is not just another civil right – because it will be matter of life or death for perfectly healthy human embryos there is every justification for this right to be built into our constitution.

Re. the argument that women should have autonomy over their own bodies and therefore have the right to choose abortion – where one stands on this depends on each person's beliefs and value system. Personally it goes against my beliefs but I am not moralising to others – I'm just trying to explain the "No" side of the argument. I accept that a sizeable proportion of the electorate (of every religious denomination and none) with vote Yes in good conscience. However I would worry that a sizeable number of voters might cast their vote without proper consideration of the consequences of a successful vote for repeal.

From Two Lives, One Love :
Where a seriously ill pregnant woman needs medical treatment which may, as a secondary effect, put the life of her baby at risk, such treatments are always ethically permissible provided every effort has been made to save the life of both the mother and her baby.

It is offensive and wrong for the Yes side to suggest that No voters are / will be denying women healthcare.

No it is not. It is clearly happening. The vast majority of the medical professionals involved in this field and their professional organisations completely disagree with your statement. Perhaps you are actually correct but the evidence of so many women and the expertise of the professionals is what I'd go along with.

When basic facts like this are being flagrantly denied or contested it's difficult to maintain a conversation.

If it is reasonable to do that then it is even more rationale to depict the Yes side as aiding and abetting prenatal culling.

I don't think either is a reasonable depiction BTW.

But if woman are denied healthcare it is to protect the life of another.
What do the medical professional say about the healthcare provided to the child? oh it doesn't get any.... in fact we take undertake the action of ending his/her life
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:25:31 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger

I am talking about the fact that if this referendum is passed, the legislation that will follow can be changed, by the wishes of the electorate by....you guessed it, voting out those who passed the legislation and voting in those with new, more draconian policies. So I wasn't actually talking about the process of the referendum, as I qualified at the start. I was talking about the subsequent democratic process.

You can apologise for your naivety or dishonesty at your leisure.

I wouldn't be walking around with sharp scissors if I were you.

Yes... and I was telling you that a parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite.??? People will vote on how a range of issues, for example in West Tyrone if the Shinners somehow managed (they wont) to get the A5 built, sorted out Brexit, and got Stormont going again I MIGHT consider voting for them...(if I had a vote) in spite of their position on this issue!

Not to mention that the current government in the Dail got 25% of the popular vote... not exactly democratic, throw in party whips and proportional representation and single issues soon get mired.

In Indyref many Scots did not vote yes because the case of independence hadn't laid out the economic plan of independence. You cant make a decision if you don't know what the consequences will be.
And the consequences of voting Yes on the 8th have been made clear by the incumbent government and that is that healthy humans will have their lives legally ended without ever having a chance or choice.

Besides I dunno why your trying to reduce this to purely about the question asked, you've expressed support for those consequences havent you? So give your rationale for that instead of trying to narrow the remit on what people should be voting on in this referendum.

What are you talking about? I already gave my reasons for voting yes. Read back the thread.

People vote on single issues in general elections all the time - see 2nd amendment voters in the US, UKIP voters (now Tories) in the UK. I believe you are the one limiting choice by saying people cannot do so. Of course they can, if they choose to, at the expense of other issues.

All I was pointing out was that, should the referendum be passed, given we live in a parliamentary democracy, the legislation that is causing No voters such distress (and genuine distress I am sure) can be modified in the future by the election of a government with a mandate to do so. Which is one advantage of taking this issue out of the constitution.

It is a simple point.

Careful about the scissors.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

I know its probably easier to depict me as an evil monster in your head, so with that depiction you probably know what I was thinking better than the real me does. Post a link like you did in this post.
You have barely addressed my arguments or questions, you just keep going around in circles with the same mantra.

Firstly "Born free" is a well used (American) phrase in the context of liberties I do not think that it is intended to be taken as literally at birth. All rights are not suddenly bestowed on a child at birth.. For example you don't even have the right to vote, work, drive, drink etc until much older, so we are not all equal in terms of rights at birth. Also the right to life before birth to some degree is guaranteed in law in virtually every member state of the UN. Using your interpretation a child could have its life terminated during labour with no legal consequences.
You using a well used phrase out of context as a legal justification.

As I said before Human beings lifecycle is defined at conception and it is from that point that the right to life must be bestowed. To end their life is cruel and inhuman
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 09, 2018, 05:39:06 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

I know its probably easier to depict me as an evil monster in your head, so with that depiction you probably know what I was thinking better than the real me does. Post a link like you did in this post.
You have barely addressed my arguments or questions, you just keep going around in circles with the same mantra.

Firstly "Born free" is a well used (American) phrase in the context of liberties I do not think that it is intended to be taken as literally at birth. All rights are not suddenly bestowed on a child at birth.. For example you don't even have the right to vote, work, drive, drink etc until much older, so we are not all equal in terms of rights at birth. Also the right to life before birth to some degree is guaranteed in law in virtually every member state of the UN. Using your interpretation a child could have its life terminated during labour with no legal consequences.
You using a well used phrase out of context as a legal justification.

As I said before Human beings lifecycle is defined at conception and it is from that point that the right to life must be bestowed. To end their life is cruel and inhuman

Well you better get used to this brave new 'cruel' world where we let women have control over their own bodies, because it's happening with or without your permission.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:56:13 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 03:25:31 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger

I am talking about the fact that if this referendum is passed, the legislation that will follow can be changed, by the wishes of the electorate by....you guessed it, voting out those who passed the legislation and voting in those with new, more draconian policies. So I wasn't actually talking about the process of the referendum, as I qualified at the start. I was talking about the subsequent democratic process.

You can apologise for your naivety or dishonesty at your leisure.

I wouldn't be walking around with sharp scissors if I were you.

Yes... and I was telling you that a parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite.??? People will vote on how a range of issues, for example in West Tyrone if the Shinners somehow managed (they wont) to get the A5 built, sorted out Brexit, and got Stormont going again I MIGHT consider voting for them...(if I had a vote) in spite of their position on this issue!

Not to mention that the current government in the Dail got 25% of the popular vote... not exactly democratic, throw in party whips and proportional representation and single issues soon get mired.

In Indyref many Scots did not vote yes because the case of independence hadn't laid out the economic plan of independence. You cant make a decision if you don't know what the consequences will be.
And the consequences of voting Yes on the 8th have been made clear by the incumbent government and that is that healthy humans will have their lives legally ended without ever having a chance or choice.

Besides I dunno why your trying to reduce this to purely about the question asked, you've expressed support for those consequences havent you? So give your rationale for that instead of trying to narrow the remit on what people should be voting on in this referendum.

What are you talking about? I already gave my reasons for voting yes. Read back the thread.

People vote on single issues in general elections all the time - see 2nd amendment voters in the US, UKIP voters (now Tories) in the UK. I believe you are the one limiting choice by saying people cannot do so. Of course they can, if they choose to, at the expense of other issues.

All I was pointing out was that, should the referendum be passed, given we live in a parliamentary democracy, the legislation that is causing No voters such distress (and genuine distress I am sure) can be modified in the future by the election of a government with a mandate to do so. Which is one advantage of taking this issue out of the constitution.

It is a simple point.

Careful about the scissors.




I am talking of your proposal to kick the issue of the proposed legislation down the road when we know what the legislation will be and which you have expressed direct support for. It is an attempting to gerrymander the issues. Your moving the goalposts on what people should vote on.

Some people do vote on single issues, most don't. And as I said with a parliamentary democracy which is currently governed by 25% of the vote, along with party whips, political bargaining, proportional representation etc etc and single issues like this are like a needle in a haystack.

This referendum is an opportunity for all the electorate to do just that
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: laoislad on May 09, 2018, 06:06:02 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 09, 2018, 04:21:34 PM
I am torn on what way to vote on this.

On the one side I think there is a way that we could legislate for the rape cases and the fatal foetal abnormalities etc and still not bring in abortion on tap. It annoys me to see this being used as an argument. Very few people are against abortion in those cases but they will account for less than 1% of abortions so it seems outrageous to legislate for the whole based on those cases.

On the other hand I could easily have been caught out as a young buck in college or after getting a girl in trouble as they say. And if it happened to me (once we'd agreed) i'd have been on the boat over myself, so I'm not against it.

I do believe different people believe life starts at different points in time, a family member recently had a miscarriage and as her dad said "well that baby was alive to us" but looking at it from outside its loss isn't felt as much as if it had been born and died.

I can't ever remember an issue where I dislike both sides as much as I do this issue, both sides are so blinkered and dismissive of the other.

I'm currently leaning towards No, mainly because I wouldn't like abortion to be the contraception of choice, I would like people to take more responsibility and I have no issue with exporting our problem to Britain. But if I did decide to vote Yes it would be because I think people have their own values and beliefs on when life begins.

I wish they had given the option to legislate for the rare cases but still not have abortion
Good Post 👍
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 07:40:36 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

I know its probably easier to depict me as an evil monster in your head, so with that depiction you probably know what I was thinking better than the real me does. Post a link like you did in this post.
You have barely addressed my arguments or questions, you just keep going around in circles with the same mantra.

Firstly "Born free" is a well used (American) phrase in the context of liberties I do not think that it is intended to be taken as literally at birth. All rights are not suddenly bestowed on a child at birth.. For example you don't even have the right to vote, work, drive, drink etc until much older, so we are not all equal in terms of rights at birth. Also the right to life before birth to some degree is guaranteed in law in virtually every member state of the UN. Using your interpretation a child could have its life terminated during labour with no legal consequences.
You using a well used phrase out of context as a legal justification.

As I said before Human beings lifecycle is defined at conception and it is from that point that the right to life must be bestowed. To end their life is cruel and inhuman

Of course, I could have well guessed you'd simply dismiss the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as you simply dismiss everything else.

We weren't talking about the right to drive or to work or to drink, but continue on down your rabbit hole by all means.

Of course the unborn are protected to some degree in every state - as they will be here if the proposed legislation is passed. In most states, they're called abortion laws. That's laws, whichare legislated for, as to opoosed to blunt, inflexible constitutional provisions like we have in Ireland.

The crux of the matter is this - we cannot afford the same right to life to the unborn that we afford to an actual born human, because that unborn is contained within an actual born human woman, who must always take precedence.

To afford the same right to life to an unborn as to the born, the reality is you must trample over the human rights of the actual born woman.

That's what Ireland did, and it predictably proved to be a disaster. It is that specific thinking which led to Savita Halappanavar's death and to cases like the Michelle Harte, the X Case and many, many others.

It is an utterly ridiculous point to maintain that a zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it.

Can you tell me why that zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it?

Can I also pose the same question to you specifically that I posed in general to No supporters earlier?

If a woman, say, takes an abortion pill that successfully works to abort an embryo or a foetus (abortion pills can work anywhere up to 12 weeks), should she face 14 years in jail?

You do understand that this is already happening every single day in Ireland and isn't going to stop if No wins?

What is your answer to the thousands of Irish women that are taking abortion pills in this state?



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 07:51:51 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:56:13 PM

I am talking of your proposal to kick the issue of the proposed legislation down the road when we know what the legislation will be and which you have expressed direct support for. It is an attempting to gerrymander the issues. Your moving the goalposts on what people should vote on.

Some people do vote on single issues, most don't. And as I said with a parliamentary democracy which is currently governed by 25% of the vote, along with party whips, political bargaining, proportional representation etc etc and single issues like this are like a needle in a haystack.

This referendum is an opportunity for all the electorate to do just that

And what would your attitude be if there was no proposed legislation?

I can tell you straight up what the attitude of most No suporters would be.

They would be making it a major campaign issue and accusing the Government of dishonesty, underhand tactics, and "an attempt to hoodwink the Irish people into a regime of baby murder", and other such bullshit like that.

You wouldn't be calling it a single issue campaign.

You'd be screaming from the rooftops about "why should we trust politicians".

Oh wait, you're doing that already.

The bottom line here is that the No supporters will find any excuse to muddy the waters, outright lie and create as much fear and scaremongering as possible, and they would have been the exact same thing anyway had there been no proposed legislation.

Meanwhile, they completely fail to deal with the proven serious issues that the 8th Amendment has brought. They have no solutions to them.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: screenexile on May 09, 2018, 08:28:08 PM
See Cooper and some lad from the No campaign went at it this evening.

In fairness Cooper was grand until the No campaigner started engaging in whataboutery and was called on it. He seemed to think Google banning ads amounted to rigging the election in Yes' favour. Sounds like the No campaign realise they are doomed so are crying foul to save face!!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 09, 2018, 08:28:08 PM
See Cooper and some lad from the No campaign went at it this evening.

In fairness Cooper was grand until the No campaigner started engaging in whataboutery and was called on it. He seemed to think Google banning ads amounted to rigging the election in Yes' favour. Sounds like the No campaign realise they are doomed so are crying foul to save face!!!

That's that slimeball John McGuirk.

John wouldn't be a misogynist at all - no, no, never.

LIBERTAS'S main election spindoctor has described the party's failed Dublin candidate as "a psychotic bitch".
Press officer John McGuirk has taken a parting shot at the demoralised party, saying that Caroline Simons was the "worst candidate ever".

https://www.herald.ie/news/spindoctor-calls-libertas-poll-failure-simons-psychotic-bitch-27915407.html
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 09, 2018, 08:43:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:24:07 AM

Also, making rape an exception is a terrible idea.


I asked a question on this previously but didn't see an answer on it - what's the situation going to be in cases of rape under the proposed new legislation?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: screenexile on May 09, 2018, 08:54:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 09, 2018, 08:28:08 PM
See Cooper and some lad from the No campaign went at it this evening.

In fairness Cooper was grand until the No campaigner started engaging in whataboutery and was called on it. He seemed to think Google banning ads amounted to rigging the election in Yes' favour. Sounds like the No campaign realise they are doomed so are crying foul to save face!!!

That's that slimeball John McGuirk.

John wouldn't be a misogynist at all - no, no, never.

LIBERTAS'S main election spindoctor has described the party's failed Dublin candidate as "a psychotic bitch".
Press officer John McGuirk has taken a parting shot at the demoralised party, saying that Caroline Simons was the "worst candidate ever".

https://www.herald.ie/news/spindoctor-calls-libertas-poll-failure-simons-psychotic-bitch-27915407.html

The very boyo... you could hear the smugness in his voice as he started bringing up things just to annoy people!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 09:28:21 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 07:40:36 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

I know its probably easier to depict me as an evil monster in your head, so with that depiction you probably know what I was thinking better than the real me does. Post a link like you did in this post.
You have barely addressed my arguments or questions, you just keep going around in circles with the same mantra.

Firstly "Born free" is a well used (American) phrase in the context of liberties I do not think that it is intended to be taken as literally at birth. All rights are not suddenly bestowed on a child at birth.. For example you don't even have the right to vote, work, drive, drink etc until much older, so we are not all equal in terms of rights at birth. Also the right to life before birth to some degree is guaranteed in law in virtually every member state of the UN. Using your interpretation a child could have its life terminated during labour with no legal consequences.
You using a well used phrase out of context as a legal justification.

As I said before Human beings lifecycle is defined at conception and it is from that point that the right to life must be bestowed. To end their life is cruel and inhuman

Of course, I could have well guessed you'd simply dismiss the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as you simply dismiss everything else.

We weren't talking about the right to drive or to work or to drink, but continue on down your rabbit hole by all means.

Of course the unborn are protected to some degree in every state - as they will be here if the proposed legislation is passed. In most states, they're called abortion laws. That's laws, whichare legislated for, as to opoosed to blunt, inflexible constitutional provisions like we have in Ireland.

The crux of the matter is this - we cannot afford the same right to life to the unborn that we afford to an actual born human, because that unborn is contained within an actual born human woman, who must always take precedence.

To afford the same right to life to an unborn as to the born, the reality is you must trample over the human rights of the actual born woman.

That's what Ireland did, and it predictably proved to be a disaster. It is that specific thinking which led to Savita Halappanavar's death and to cases like the Michelle Harte, the X Case and many, many others.

It is an utterly ridiculous point to maintain that a zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it.

Can you tell me why that zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it?

Can I also pose the same question to you specifically that I posed in general to No supporters earlier?

If a woman, say, takes an abortion pill that successfully works to abort an embryo or a foetus (abortion pills can work anywhere up to 12 weeks), should she face 14 years in jail?

You do understand that this is already happening every single day in Ireland and isn't going to stop if No wins?

What is your answer to the thousands of Irish women that are taking abortion pills in this state?

I didn't dismiss the UN Bill of human rights merely pointing out your twisted interpretation of it for your own agenda, all the rights are not present at birth or for a good few years afterwards.

I have repeatedly said that the actual born woman takes precedence so please stop with that straw man.
Repeating a straw man does not make it rational or true.

Under the proposed legislation the unborn child will be afforded no legal protection.
This leads to abortion on request for children that have no health issues there needs to be some degree of legal protection for healthy unborn consensually conceived babies of which the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on.

The punishment should fit the crime and they differ for every circumstance. 14 years seems excessive but I am sure someone could point to a case where a child was naturally conceived where the abortion was carried out in a fit of rage to spite someone else, like a partner. Or because the child is a girl instead of a boy or something like that. In those cases 14years seems about right especially if its a repeat offence.
But 14 years seems excessive for the majority of the convenience abortions, I know a lot of woman are in crisis not thinking straight, bad influences etc etc. I believe women who abandon their babies aren't usually charged, or those suffering postpartum depression who hurt kill their babies are usually found not to be liable for their actions. Similar compassion should with abortion but of course it all depends on the circumstance.

I have answered yours questions so can you answer me this one which I have asked repeatedly...

Since the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on healthy babies should such babies (embyros/humans etc) have no right to life? and should the mother's right to choose always supersede any right to life of the child?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 09:36:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 07:51:51 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:56:13 PM

I am talking of your proposal to kick the issue of the proposed legislation down the road when we know what the legislation will be and which you have expressed direct support for. It is an attempting to gerrymander the issues. Your moving the goalposts on what people should vote on.

Some people do vote on single issues, most don't. And as I said with a parliamentary democracy which is currently governed by 25% of the vote, along with party whips, political bargaining, proportional representation etc etc and single issues like this are like a needle in a haystack.

This referendum is an opportunity for all the electorate to do just that

And what would your attitude be if there was no proposed legislation?

I can tell you straight up what the attitude of most No suporters would be.

They would be making it a major campaign issue and accusing the Government of dishonesty, underhand tactics, and "an attempt to hoodwink the Irish people into a regime of baby murder", and other such bullshit like that.

You wouldn't be calling it a single issue campaign.

You'd be screaming from the rooftops about "why should we trust politicians".

Oh wait, you're doing that already.

The bottom line here is that the No supporters will find any excuse to muddy the waters, outright lie and create as much fear and scaremongering as possible, and they would have been the exact same thing anyway had there been no proposed legislation.

Meanwhile, they completely fail to deal with the proven serious issues that the 8th Amendment has brought. They have no solutions to them.

Your talking about a scenario that is not this situation so really your just speculating. Tho I am amazing to see how well you know how the entire opposite side of the fence is thinking impressive stuff, but I suspect (open to correction of course) your just making it up to demonise those who think differently just like you have done with me.
The Government have been straight up and honest about what will happe so people can know what the consequences of a yes vote will be

I haven't said anything about trusting politicians about this issue, tho only an eejit would trust a politician in general.

Your the one mudding the waters, going over old ground, telling lies, not answering questions, digressing and with virtually every sentence playing the man.

None of this tho takes away from the central question of:

Since the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on healthy babies should such babies have no right to life? and should the mother's right to choose always supersede any right of the child?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 09, 2018, 11:37:56 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 09:36:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 07:51:51 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:56:13 PM

I am talking of your proposal to kick the issue of the proposed legislation down the road when we know what the legislation will be and which you have expressed direct support for. It is an attempting to gerrymander the issues. Your moving the goalposts on what people should vote on.

Some people do vote on single issues, most don't. And as I said with a parliamentary democracy which is currently governed by 25% of the vote, along with party whips, political bargaining, proportional representation etc etc and single issues like this are like a needle in a haystack.

This referendum is an opportunity for all the electorate to do just that

And what would your attitude be if there was no proposed legislation?

I can tell you straight up what the attitude of most No suporters would be.

They would be making it a major campaign issue and accusing the Government of dishonesty, underhand tactics, and "an attempt to hoodwink the Irish people into a regime of baby murder", and other such bullshit like that.

You wouldn't be calling it a single issue campaign.

You'd be screaming from the rooftops about "why should we trust politicians".

Oh wait, you're doing that already.

The bottom line here is that the No supporters will find any excuse to muddy the waters, outright lie and create as much fear and scaremongering as possible, and they would have been the exact same thing anyway had there been no proposed legislation.

Meanwhile, they completely fail to deal with the proven serious issues that the 8th Amendment has brought. They have no solutions to them.

Your talking about a scenario that is not this situation so really your just speculating. Tho I am amazing to see how well you know how the entire opposite side of the fence is thinking impressive stuff, but I suspect (open to correction of course) your just making it up to demonise those who think differently just like you have done with me.
The Government have been straight up and honest about what will happe so people can know what the consequences of a yes vote will be

I haven't said anything about trusting politicians about this issue, tho only an eejit would trust a politician in general.

Your the one mudding the waters, going over old ground, telling lies, not answering questions, digressing and with virtually every sentence playing the man.

None of this tho takes away from the central question of:

Since the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on healthy babies should such babies have no right to life? and should the mother's right to choose always supersede any right of the child?

Even calling a twelve week-old embryo a 'baby' is an incredible push. Emotive language unmoored from any logic.

Like every other western country, we will get abortion in time like every other human right and the side who opposed the granting of that right will fade into a fringe group within a generation. More than anything the No side people are deeply frightened because they know their argument will never be good enough to reverse a Yes vote, but they know even a No vote will only realistically delay the inevitable.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:19:41 AM
I really hope your significant other doesn't experience the loss of a baby at 12 weeks...or any week.
I don't understand your outlook on this at all - I see no regard for life, no feelings or empathy for the baby and a strong aggressive push to bring elective abortion to Ireland and label it a human right and progress. You'll know in the end....
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 12:47:59 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 09:28:21 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 07:40:36 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

I know its probably easier to depict me as an evil monster in your head, so with that depiction you probably know what I was thinking better than the real me does. Post a link like you did in this post.
You have barely addressed my arguments or questions, you just keep going around in circles with the same mantra.

Firstly "Born free" is a well used (American) phrase in the context of liberties I do not think that it is intended to be taken as literally at birth. All rights are not suddenly bestowed on a child at birth.. For example you don't even have the right to vote, work, drive, drink etc until much older, so we are not all equal in terms of rights at birth. Also the right to life before birth to some degree is guaranteed in law in virtually every member state of the UN. Using your interpretation a child could have its life terminated during labour with no legal consequences.
You using a well used phrase out of context as a legal justification.

As I said before Human beings lifecycle is defined at conception and it is from that point that the right to life must be bestowed. To end their life is cruel and inhuman

Of course, I could have well guessed you'd simply dismiss the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as you simply dismiss everything else.

We weren't talking about the right to drive or to work or to drink, but continue on down your rabbit hole by all means.

Of course the unborn are protected to some degree in every state - as they will be here if the proposed legislation is passed. In most states, they're called abortion laws. That's laws, whichare legislated for, as to opoosed to blunt, inflexible constitutional provisions like we have in Ireland.

The crux of the matter is this - we cannot afford the same right to life to the unborn that we afford to an actual born human, because that unborn is contained within an actual born human woman, who must always take precedence.

To afford the same right to life to an unborn as to the born, the reality is you must trample over the human rights of the actual born woman.

That's what Ireland did, and it predictably proved to be a disaster. It is that specific thinking which led to Savita Halappanavar's death and to cases like the Michelle Harte, the X Case and many, many others.

It is an utterly ridiculous point to maintain that a zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it.

Can you tell me why that zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it?

Can I also pose the same question to you specifically that I posed in general to No supporters earlier?

If a woman, say, takes an abortion pill that successfully works to abort an embryo or a foetus (abortion pills can work anywhere up to 12 weeks), should she face 14 years in jail?

You do understand that this is already happening every single day in Ireland and isn't going to stop if No wins?

What is your answer to the thousands of Irish women that are taking abortion pills in this state?

I didn't dismiss the UN Bill of human rights merely pointing out your twisted interpretation of it for your own agenda, all the rights are not present at birth or for a good few years afterwards.

I have repeatedly said that the actual born woman takes precedence so please stop with that straw man.
Repeating a straw man does not make it rational or true.

Under the proposed legislation the unborn child will be afforded no legal protection.
This leads to abortion on request for children that have no health issues there needs to be some degree of legal protection for healthy unborn consensually conceived babies of which the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on.

The punishment should fit the crime and they differ for every circumstance. 14 years seems excessive but I am sure someone could point to a case where a child was naturally conceived where the abortion was carried out in a fit of rage to spite someone else, like a partner. Or because the child is a girl instead of a boy or something like that. In those cases 14years seems about right especially if its a repeat offence.
But 14 years seems excessive for the majority of the convenience abortions, I know a lot of woman are in crisis not thinking straight, bad influences etc etc. I believe women who abandon their babies aren't usually charged, or those suffering postpartum depression who hurt kill their babies are usually found not to be liable for their actions. Similar compassion should with abortion but of course it all depends on the circumstance.

I have answered yours questions so can you answer me this one which I have asked repeatedly...

Since the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on healthy babies should such babies (embyros/humans etc) have no right to life? and should the mother's right to choose always supersede any right to life of the child?
I didn't twist the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in any way.

You talked about the supposed "right to life" as a human right. The way you framed that was clearly as an absolute right. I've already explained why that shouldn't be offered to the unborn and why when it is, as in Ireland's case, it proves to be a disaster.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights doesn't offer it to the unborn and neither do other European countries. That doesn't mean the unborn don't have rights under abortion laws. They clearly do, that is why time limits are imposed for elective abortion.

If you believe the woman carrying an unborn takes precedence, then you believe the 8th Amendment must go as the 8th Amendment denies this.

As I said prevously, abortion is happening in Ireland right now. Thousands of Irish women abort using pills which work up to 12 weeks.

If you believe 14 years is an appropriate punishment, what should be done about these women? How do you plan to catch them and punish them? How do you plan to lock them up, because there are a hell of a lot of them and there isn't space in our prisons for them.

Why are the No campaign furiously denying they want to see any women locked up?

If a woman murders a (born) baby, she will almost certainly go to jail. See the link to the Jennifer Crichton case earlier. I absolutely agree that a woman who murders a baby should go to jail unless there are serious mental health issues at play.

But the so called pro-life side claim that an unborn, from conception, is a human being. Yet they say they don't want women to go to jail if they have an abortion. This doesn't make sense. One either believes that abortion is a human being or they don't, and if they do, why the difference in prescribed punishment, or lack of it, for killing a born baby versus an unborn foetus?

If there is a threat to health at any stage in the pregnancy, I believe the woman's right should always supercede that of the foetus, yes, and it should never ever be subservient in any circumstances. In practice, under the 8th Amendment, it is.

I firmly believe women all should have the right to choose up to a specified time limit. I'm happy with 12 weeks as the limit as it's a hell of a lot better than what we have now, ie. 0, but I would be happier with a higher limit, as I've said, previously, perhaps 16 weeks or 18 as Sweden have. Nevertheless, the fact is that the vast majority of abortions are carried out before 12 weeks. After that, as the foetus develops sentience in the post 20 week period it becomes a matter of balancing rights as is best possible. I'm happy with the provisions for up to 6 months for threat to health etc. After that in the rare cases where the pregnancy needs to ended it will become a case of inducing labour if necessary with the primary aim to save the mother, but also with the aim of delivering a healthy baby. The proposed legislation is a quantum leap forward for Irish women.

The question of possible "exceptions" has been brought up here.

Now, let's say the 8th Amendment is abolished, and legislators are free to frame legislation. The problem with legislating only for, say, rape and incest, is that it would place at least some burden of proof on the mother to prove she had been raped. Under normal circumstances, and as we saw so clearly in Belfast recently, rape is a very difficult crime to prove, and it will never, ever be proved in the time frame of a resulting pregnancy.

So, how do you prove it? We know rape is a hugely underreported crime and in reality there are a huge number of rape victims out there who have never even reported it.

What burden of proof would be required? It would have to be reported for a start. Then a woman would presumably have to come before a panel a very short time after her rape and attempt to prove to some as of yet unknown burden of proof that she had been raped.

During and after Belfast many people talked about how it felt it was the complainant on trial, not the defendants. Legislating only for cases such as rape is a recipe for victims to be put on trial in order to obtain an abortion. I really don't think we want that.

I can get that people don't like abortion. Nobody "likes" abortion. Nobody is saying "go abortion!" But it is necessary for women's welfare for it to be available to all. The alternative is that a particular, narrow view of morality continues to be imposed on everybody. Whereas pro-choice campaigners are not attempting to impose their morality on anybody. Nobody would be forcing anybody to have an abortion.

The reality that No campaigners must face up to is, as I have already said, that abortion is already happening in Ireland. Anybody can buy abortion pills online. They work up to 12 weeks.

So we have thousands of women carrying out their own abortions (currently illegally, of course). Now these pills will generally be safe, but there is always the chance of something going wrong. Perhaps the mother has an underlying health condition which makes it unsafe for her to take an abortion pill.

What happens if something goes wrong? What if a woman has an adverse reaction to the pill and needs urgent medical help? She'll already have been in a vulnerable position given she is taking the pill to terminate her crisis pregnancy in the first place. What goes through her mind? If she goes to a public hospital, she'll have to tell the staff that she has had an abortion via a pill. And what if somebody on the staff is a strict Catholic and reports her? A 14 year prison sentence could hang over her.

So, should we leave women who encounter complications as a result of taking abortion pills to face a nightmarish dilemma between i) not seeking medical help, which could result in grave health implications, and ii) presenting at a hospital and possibly facing prison time?

Or do we face up to reality and legalise it, regulate it and make it safe for everybody?

Because, it is happening, a No vote won't mean it's not happening - it will be delusion, and it will be cowardice. We will just continue on as before, and the reality will be swept under the carpet.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 01:07:57 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:19:41 AM
I really hope your significant other doesn't experience the loss of a baby at 12 weeks...or any week.
I don't understand your outlook on this at all - I see no regard for life, no feelings or empathy for the baby and a strong aggressive push to bring elective abortion to Ireland and label it a human right and progress. You'll know in the end....
The bit you write about having no regard for life or no feelings or empathy is absolute nonsense.

That is in fact what I see everywhere from No supporters - the lack of feelings and empathy for women, the vile hatred online, and scant regard for their lives.

Remember, just five years ago, the exact same people who are campaigning against this referendum - Cora Sherlock, Ronan Mullen, William Binchy etc., were all over the airwaves telling us why a suicidal woman should be forced to give birth against her will.

Put yourself in the shoes of a woman experiencing a crisis pregnancy who feels they need an abortion.

Or put yourself in the shoes of someone who has a loved one experiencing a crisis pregnancy and feels they needs an abortion.

See what your answer is.

I would strongly advise every person voting to do this.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 09:28:20 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 09, 2018, 08:43:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:24:07 AM

Also, making rape an exception is a terrible idea.


I asked a question on this previously but didn't see an answer on it - what's the situation going to be in cases of rape under the proposed new legislation?

As I understand it there is no separate provision and I understand why. How would it work? Would the woman have the prove she was raped and how would she do that? How long would it take? Unpalatable and all as the elective 12 weeks might be if you really think about it then it's clear to see it's the only sensible approach. It provides for these cases and the vast majority of "trips to England" that are and have taken place for years and years.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 10, 2018, 09:29:00 AM
It does seem the NO side have no regard for the physical or mental wellbeing of women. But that is how the Catholic Church traditionally treated women.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 10, 2018, 10:16:42 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 09:28:20 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 09, 2018, 08:43:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 11:24:07 AM

Also, making rape an exception is a terrible idea.


I asked a question on this previously but didn't see an answer on it - what's the situation going to be in cases of rape under the proposed new legislation?

As I understand it there is no separate provision and I understand why. How would it work? Would the woman have the prove she was raped and how would she do that? How long would it take? Unpalatable and all as the elective 12 weeks might be if you really think about it then it's clear to see it's the only sensible approach. It provides for these cases and the vast majority of "trips to England" that are and have taken place for years and years.

Yeah, I understand the problems around a woman having to "prove" she was raped if there were special provisions for it and I doubt there's any good solution to it. The 12 weeks limit doesn't fully solve the problem for women who are raped though as they may not know they're pregnant/ may not have told anyone about what happened/ may not have decided what to do with the baby. Many of these women will still have to go to England.

Personally I would be more comfortable with a lower general limit and a significantly higher limit for difficult cases although I appreciate it's not easy to accommodate this.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 10, 2018, 10:27:27 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 10, 2018, 09:29:00 AM
It does seem the NO side have no regard for the physical or mental wellbeing of women. But that is how the Catholic Church traditionally treated women.

This type of attitude is not particularly helpful to the debate but it tends to be prevalent among most of those we hear in the media. So many seem to think that there are NO valid reasons for voting the other way and it ends up that the No side labels anyone thinking about voting Yes as a murderer while the Yes side labels anyone thinking about voting No as having no respect for women. The way it's developed reminds me of American politics and Brexit. Is the reality not that there are legitimate reasons for voting either way and it's a matter of weighing up those and making your own decision.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 10:38:06 AM
Until 1869, the Roman Catholic Church saw no problem with abortion up to 166 days, or almost 24 weeks.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Tubberman on May 10, 2018, 10:50:54 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 10:38:06 AM
Until 1869, the Roman Catholic Church saw no problem with abortion up to 166 days, or almost 24 weeks.



Very little relevance to 2018!
I'm not religious at all (haven't been in a church outside weddings/funerals/christenings in 20 years I'd say) and still have major issues with repealing the amendment and the proposed legislation.
Don't make the lazy assumption that all No voters are bible thumpers. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 10, 2018, 10:55:16 AM
The "Roman" Catholic Church said Earth was the Centre of the Universe once and also said the Sun revolved around the Earth.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on May 10, 2018, 10:50:54 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 10:38:06 AM
Until 1869, the Roman Catholic Church saw no problem with abortion up to 166 days, or almost 24 weeks.



Very little relevance to 2018!
I'm not religious at all (haven't been in a church outside weddings/funerals/christenings in 20 years I'd say) and still have major issues with repealing the amendment and the proposed legislation.
Don't make the lazy assumption that all No voters are bible thumpers.
It has a lot of relevance in that a supposedly "unchanging" fact according to the Roman Catholic Church is in fact a relatively recent concept as far as they are concerned.

I mean, were abortions carried out in 1868 not murder but abortions carried out in 1870 murder?

Certainly I don't think there were any significant changes in biology during those two years.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 10:59:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 10, 2018, 10:55:16 AM
The "Roman" Catholic Church said Earth was the Centre of the Universe once and also said the Sun revolved around the Earth.
And until 2007 they said that "limbo" exists.

Does an unbaptised baby who was born and died in 2006 go to limbo, but an unbaptised baby which was born and died in 2008 go to heaven?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:19:41 AM
I really hope your significant other doesn't experience the loss of a baby at 12 weeks...or any week.
I don't understand your outlook on this at all - I see no regard for life, no feelings or empathy for the baby and a strong aggressive push to bring elective abortion to Ireland and label it a human right and progress. You'll know in the end....

You are such a pathetic, shit-stirring bellend.

Trying to draw equivalence between losing a child and abortion. Utterly embarrassing.

If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 11:05:57 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM

If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.
Iceman?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:19:41 AM
I really hope your significant other doesn't experience the loss of a baby at 12 weeks...or any week.
I don't understand your outlook on this at all - I see no regard for life, no feelings or empathy for the baby and a strong aggressive push to bring elective abortion to Ireland and label it a human right and progress. You'll know in the end....

You are such a pathetic, shit-stirring bellend.

Trying to draw equivalence between losing a child and abortion. Utterly embarrassing.

If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.
First off you don't need to continue to insult me - you might bump in to me some time and I promise I will humble you.
Second, of course I can draw a comparison with a miscarriage at 12 weeks and an abortion at 12 weeks - its still a child. Have you spoken to anyone who's had an abortion - I have. I haven't met one who doesn't regret it. Do you know any women who have had miscarriages? I do, in my own family, and they mourn those children still.
And we would not be down any clinic - you know nothing about me or my family or what we have been through and are capable of handling.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 10, 2018, 09:29:00 AM
It does seem the NO side have no regard for the physical or mental wellbeing of women. But that is how the Catholic Church traditionally treated women.

This just isn't true. Some understand but also feel that life (And some people believe either rightly or wrongly that a foetus is life) is also important. And therefore it's not a straightforward decision to make. Posts like the above are as unhelpful as anyone in the no camp shouting "murderer". I'll put my hands up and say that I was initially in the no camp. But am beginning to sway towards yes now. But have concerns on that side as well. So I honestly don't think there'll be a decision that I'll be fully happy with. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 10, 2018, 09:29:00 AM
It does seem the NO side have no regard for the physical or mental wellbeing of women. But that is how the Catholic Church traditionally treated women.

This just isn't true. Some understand but also feel that life (And some people believe either rightly or wrongly that a foetus is life) is also important. And therefore it's not a straightforward decision to make. Posts like the above are as unhelpful as anyone in the no camp shouting "murderer". I'll put my hands up and say that I was initially in the no camp. But am beginning to sway towards yes now. But have concerns on that side as well. So I honestly don't think there'll be a decision that I'll be fully happy with.

Yes and no doubt you're not happy with the current situation either where women are travelling to England every day, pills are being bought online, women with health complications aren't being properly cared for, victims of rape/incest who become pregnant etc. What's proposed should the 8th amendment be removed is not a perfect solution. I feel though it's the safest and best compromise that should address a lot of concerns but clearly cannot cater for everything.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 02:32:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:19:41 AM
I really hope your significant other doesn't experience the loss of a baby at 12 weeks...or any week.
I don't understand your outlook on this at all - I see no regard for life, no feelings or empathy for the baby and a strong aggressive push to bring elective abortion to Ireland and label it a human right and progress. You'll know in the end....

You are such a pathetic, shit-stirring bellend.

Trying to draw equivalence between losing a child and abortion. Utterly embarrassing.

If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.
First off you don't need to continue to insult me - you might bump in to me some time and I promise I will humble you.
Second, of course I can draw a comparison with a miscarriage at 12 weeks and an abortion at 12 weeks - its still a child. Have you spoken to anyone who's had an abortion - I have. I haven't met one who doesn't regret it. Do you know any women who have had miscarriages? I do, in my own family, and they mourn those children still.
And we would not be down any clinic - you know nothing about me or my family or what we have been through and are capable of handling.
Any chance you could provide statistics from a reputable source about women's reactions to having an abortion?

If your wife was raped and was made pregnant as a result, and she wanted an abortion, what would you say to her?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 10, 2018, 02:45:41 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:19:41 AM
I really hope your significant other doesn't experience the loss of a baby at 12 weeks...or any week.
I don't understand your outlook on this at all - I see no regard for life, no feelings or empathy for the baby and a strong aggressive push to bring elective abortion to Ireland and label it a human right and progress. You'll know in the end....

You are such a pathetic, shit-stirring bellend.

Trying to draw equivalence between losing a child and abortion. Utterly embarrassing.

If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.
First off you don't need to continue to insult me - you might bump in to me some time and I promise I will humble you.
Second, of course I can draw a comparison with a miscarriage at 12 weeks and an abortion at 12 weeks - its still a child. Have you spoken to anyone who's had an abortion - I have. I haven't met one who doesn't regret it. Do you know any women who have had miscarriages? I do, in my own family, and they mourn those children still.
And we would not be down any clinic - you know nothing about me or my family or what we have been through and are capable of handling.

So you've met every woman who's had an abortion?  ::)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 02:51:36 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 10, 2018, 09:29:00 AM
It does seem the NO side have no regard for the physical or mental wellbeing of women. But that is how the Catholic Church traditionally treated women.

This just isn't true. Some understand but also feel that life (And some people believe either rightly or wrongly that a foetus is life) is also important. And therefore it's not a straightforward decision to make. Posts like the above are as unhelpful as anyone in the no camp shouting "murderer". I'll put my hands up and say that I was initially in the no camp. But am beginning to sway towards yes now. But have concerns on that side as well. So I honestly don't think there'll be a decision that I'll be fully happy with.

Yes and no doubt you're not happy with the current situation either where women are travelling to England every day, pills are being bought online, women with health complications aren't being properly cared for, victims of rape/incest who become pregnant etc. What's proposed should the 8th amendment be removed is not a perfect solution. I feel though it's the safest and best compromise that should address a lot of concerns but clearly cannot cater for everything.

Exactly. I suppose it's an imperfect world and that and nothing is going to cover all bases. As I said I find myself moving over towards the yes side as per the reasons in your post. But I do take issue with posts like Longballin's who think that everyone in the no side have no concerns for a woman's health. I think that's rarely the case. Most are because they see the taking of a (Potential) life as a travesty. Which, if I'm honest, I struggle with as well. But realise that the alternative is equally horrid. That for me is the reason why I wouldn't actively push either side, I just don't have the conviction of my decision.

Not sure if that makes sense.....
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:36:58 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 02:51:36 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 10, 2018, 09:29:00 AM
It does seem the NO side have no regard for the physical or mental wellbeing of women. But that is how the Catholic Church traditionally treated women.

This just isn't true. Some understand but also feel that life (And some people believe either rightly or wrongly that a foetus is life) is also important. And therefore it's not a straightforward decision to make. Posts like the above are as unhelpful as anyone in the no camp shouting "murderer". I'll put my hands up and say that I was initially in the no camp. But am beginning to sway towards yes now. But have concerns on that side as well. So I honestly don't think there'll be a decision that I'll be fully happy with.

Yes and no doubt you're not happy with the current situation either where women are travelling to England every day, pills are being bought online, women with health complications aren't being properly cared for, victims of rape/incest who become pregnant etc. What's proposed should the 8th amendment be removed is not a perfect solution. I feel though it's the safest and best compromise that should address a lot of concerns but clearly cannot cater for everything.

Exactly. I suppose it's an imperfect world and that and nothing is going to cover all bases. As I said I find myself moving over towards the yes side as per the reasons in your post. But I do take issue with posts like Longballin's who think that everyone in the no side have no concerns for a woman's health. I think that's rarely the case. Most are because they see the taking of a (Potential) life as a travesty. Which, if I'm honest, I struggle with as well. But realise that the alternative is equally horrid. That for me is the reason why I wouldn't actively push either side, I just don't have the conviction of my decision.

Not sure if that makes sense.....

Makes perfect sense and I'm not all that different from you in truth. I just think if we go with removing the 8th and introducing the new proposals I see very few additional negatives (the geographic location of where abortions are carried out is about all I can think of - which is a red herring for me) and a lot of positives for the difficult cases in comparison to the status quo that exists today.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 03:37:47 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 12:19:41 AM
I really hope your significant other doesn't experience the loss of a baby at 12 weeks...or any week.
I don't understand your outlook on this at all - I see no regard for life, no feelings or empathy for the baby and a strong aggressive push to bring elective abortion to Ireland and label it a human right and progress. You'll know in the end....

You are such a pathetic, shit-stirring bellend.

Trying to draw equivalence between losing a child and abortion. Utterly embarrassing.

If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.
First off you don't need to continue to insult me - you might bump in to me some time and I promise I will humble you.
Second, of course I can draw a comparison with a miscarriage at 12 weeks and an abortion at 12 weeks - its still a child. Have you spoken to anyone who's had an abortion - I have. I haven't met one who doesn't regret it. Do you know any women who have had miscarriages? I do, in my own family, and they mourn those children still.
And we would not be down any clinic - you know nothing about me or my family or what we have been through and are capable of handling.

You'll humble him? Sounds about the typical No side attitude alright. If my argument doesn't cut mustard I'll just get angry and threaten the other side. Problem solved?

Better get used to abortions in Ireland because it's going to pass.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
To be fair Syf, that attitude is not unique to the no side. I think trueblue articulated it fairly well, and I'd be very similar, except I can't get over my problem with the 12 week elective. That's what is swaying me the way I am.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
To be fair Syf, that attitude is not unique to the no side. I think trueblue articulated it fairly well, and I'd be very similar, except I can't get over my problem with the 12 week elective. That's what is swaying me the way I am.

I don't think the women on the Yes side are very likely to threaten to humble you, AZ, but maybe they're a lot tougher in Tipp than the ones I know at home or in Dublin.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:43:57 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
To be fair Syf, that attitude is not unique to the no side. I think trueblue articulated it fairly well, and I'd be very similar, except I can't get over my problem with the 12 week elective. That's what is swaying me the way I am.

I don't think the women on the Yes side are very likely to threaten to humble you, AZ, but maybe they're a lot tougher in Tipp than the ones I know at home or in Dublin.

Well, yes, talking about 'humbling' someone is very UFC alright.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:49:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
To be fair Syf, that attitude is not unique to the no side. I think trueblue articulated it fairly well, and I'd be very similar, except I can't get over my problem with the 12 week elective. That's what is swaying me the way I am.

The 12 week elective is necessary to cover the cases of incest or rape (most - there will still be exceptions due mainly to later disclosure/discovery etc). How else would you propose these cases are dealt with? It's simply not possible to handle them any other way.

And it also covers the vast majority of elective cases that are already happening in the UK. You may not like this aspect but they are happening and surely it's more compassionate that a woman is able to have support round her and doesn't have to travel?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Sid, just a point of information here.
There is a dispute over what born actually means, legally speaking.
Some take it to mean the day in a hospital when you come out of the womb.
However others take it to be at the moment of conception.

These are such valid and divided stances that the state had to stop our court system ruling on the embryo case in 2006.

So ironically you don't get to define birth either.

It really is the key issue for this election
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:49:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
To be fair Syf, that attitude is not unique to the no side. I think trueblue articulated it fairly well, and I'd be very similar, except I can't get over my problem with the 12 week elective. That's what is swaying me the way I am.

The 12 week elective is necessary to cover the cases of incest or rape (most - there will still be exceptions due mainly to later disclosure/discovery etc). How else would you propose these cases are dealt with? It's simply not possible to handle them any other way.

And it also covers the vast majority of elective cases that are already happening in the UK. You may not like this aspect but they are happening and surely it's more compassionate that a woman is able to have support round her and doesn't have to travel?

It's not easy Seanie, I understand that. I absolutely understand why people feel differently to me. But I have to vote with my conscience, and I just can't get past this aspect. I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote No. As long as everyone votes according to their true gut feel on it, then that's democracy, and even if I'm on the wrong side of the result, and I don't like this aspect, I will be happy that at least it was done for the right reasons.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Sid, just a point of information here.
There is a dispute over what born actually means, legally speaking.
Some take it to mean the day in a hospital when you come out of the womb.
However others take it to be at the moment of conception.

These are such valid and divided stances that the state had to stop our court system ruling on the embryo case in 2006.

So ironically you don't get to define birth either.

It really is the key issue for this election

I'm sorry but I've never heard anyone claim something like this. It's clearly ridiculous. If you're looking for a definition a dictionary is usually a good place to start.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 10, 2018, 03:59:56 PM
If a no voter tells me, honestly, that he/she considers a foetus to be alive from conception, and that they can't square their conscience with what the termination of that foetus would mean to them, then there is very little I can say to change their mind. I don't think I'd try either.

This is a vote of conscience - I don't think anyone going to the polls is doing so with a skip in their step. It is the most consequential social decision we have ever been asked to make.

The only regret anyone should have over their vote, is not using it. The campaigners on either side don't have to presume good faith on the part of their opponents. Perhaps we should do so here, so people don't have to be "humbled" at any stage of the game.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 04:00:40 PM
100% Easytiger. That's well said.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Sid, just a point of information here.
There is a dispute over what born actually means, legally speaking.
Some take it to mean the day in a hospital when you come out of the womb.
However others take it to be at the moment of conception.

These are such valid and divided stances that the state had to stop our court system ruling on the embryo case in 2006.

So ironically you don't get to define birth either.

It really is the key issue for this election

I'm sorry but I've never heard anyone claim something like this. It's clearly ridiculous. If you're looking for a definition a dictionary is usually a good place to start.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-says-court-cannot-rule-when-life-begins-1.1011943

Its an actual legal case, there is no legal definition for birth in Ireland, or rather when life begins
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: laoislad on May 10, 2018, 04:08:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:49:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
To be fair Syf, that attitude is not unique to the no side. I think trueblue articulated it fairly well, and I'd be very similar, except I can't get over my problem with the 12 week elective. That's what is swaying me the way I am.

The 12 week elective is necessary to cover the cases of incest or rape (most - there will still be exceptions due mainly to later disclosure/discovery etc). How else would you propose these cases are dealt with? It's simply not possible to handle them any other way.

And it also covers the vast majority of elective cases that are already happening in the UK. You may not like this aspect but they are happening and surely it's more compassionate that a woman is able to have support round her and doesn't have to travel?

It's not easy Seanie, I understand that. I absolutely understand why people feel differently to me. But I have to vote with my conscience, and I just can't get past this aspect. I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote No. As long as everyone votes according to their true gut feel on it, then that's democracy, and even if I'm on the wrong side of the result, and I don't like this aspect, I will be happy that at least it was done for the right reasons.
Exactly how I feel about it and I'll also be voting No.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 10, 2018, 04:33:45 PM
Plenty of No voters have legitimate concerns and well thought out arguments for their decision

If the bullying going on here is representative of whats happening in broader society that could cost the Yes side a few percentage points. It happened with Brexit and it happened with Trump
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 04:55:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 10, 2018, 04:33:45 PM
Plenty of No voters have legitimate concerns and well thought out arguments for their decision

If the bullying going on here is representative of whats happening in broader society that could cost the Yes side a few percentage points. It happened with Brexit and it happened with Trump

Those are working out well.....!!!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 04:57:01 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Sid, just a point of information here.
There is a dispute over what born actually means, legally speaking.
Some take it to mean the day in a hospital when you come out of the womb.
However others take it to be at the moment of conception.

These are such valid and divided stances that the state had to stop our court system ruling on the embryo case in 2006.

So ironically you don't get to define birth either.

It really is the key issue for this election

I'm sorry but I've never heard anyone claim something like this. It's clearly ridiculous. If you're looking for a definition a dictionary is usually a good place to start.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-says-court-cannot-rule-when-life-begins-1.1011943

Its an actual legal case, there is no legal definition for birth in Ireland, or rather when life begins

Huh? They're two different things. Big difference between "birth" and "when life begins" in my mind anyway.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 05:42:28 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...

I'd be genuinely upset if someone with your mindset didn't think that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 10, 2018, 06:02:50 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 05:42:28 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...

I'd be genuinely upset if someone with your mindset didn't think that.
I must have similar mindset. That is a most despicable attitude to women and a throwback to Ireland of the 1950s. Thankfully we've moved on which YES vote will confirm.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: GJL on May 10, 2018, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...

+1
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.

I do not favour this amendment, but I agree with this sentiment. I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 09:24:07 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 05:42:28 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...

I'd be genuinely upset if someone with your mindset didn't think that.

Well you can sleep soundly tonight.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

It already has more than 50% support. You'd swear it was the No side that had a 15-25 point lead in every single poll they way you're play-acting. Not surprised, though.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 10, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
... I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.

Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

Like most reasonable people, I respect the convictions of all who have considered the issues and come to a decision. I must say, though, that I have never understood this contention and cannot see how it doesn't destroy the argument of those whose opposition to abortion at any stage is based on the right to life from conception.

If a zygote or foetus has an unquestioned right to life (and I'm not, in this post, addressing that point one way or the other), how is that right so easily withdrawn based on its parentage and how can someone who believes this propose abortion in the case of rape?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 10, 2018, 10:14:05 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

It already has more than 50% support. You'd swear it was the No side that had a 15-25 point lead in every single poll they Way you're paltacting. Not surprised, though.

The last poll I saw was 45/34 for yes/no with the remainder undecided
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 10:18:48 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 10, 2018, 10:14:05 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

It already has more than 50% support. You'd swear it was the No side that had a 15-25 point lead in every single poll they Way you're paltacting. Not surprised, though.

The last poll I saw was 45/34 for yes/no with the remainder undecided

Extrapolate that to the vote. All those supposedly undecided voters aren't going to uniformly vote No. I think like with most votes people like to pretend they're closer than they really are when a big lead exsists. Anything else just feels boring.

As long as the GOTV is good on the Yes side - and I have every reason to believe that it will be excellent - there will be little drama when the votes are tallied.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 10:33:39 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

No, instead you just land into every debate with your insufferably misguided patronising attitude and play the holier than thou card when pulled on it.

"My mate was raped and had a beautiful, healthy baby as a result therefore nobody should be allowed abortion. Don't worry about the distress it'll inflict on any woman, my mate was grand so they can get through it too."

Odious, obnoxious bollocks.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 10:34:58 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 10, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
... I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.

Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

Like most reasonable people, I respect the convictions of all who have considered the issues and come to a decision. I must say, though, that I have never understood this contention and cannot see how it doesn't destroy the argument of those whose opposition to abortion at any stage is based on the right to life from conception.

If a zygote or foetus has an unquestioned right to life (and I'm not, in this post, addressing that point one way or the other), how is that right so easily withdrawn based on its parentage and how can someone who believes this propose abortion in the case of rape?

It is a minimal intervention. If you do not accept the idea of minimal intervention than you can justify abortion to 9 months, or infanticide.
Stopping a pregnancy starting is a different order of magnitude from ending one. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 10, 2018, 10:37:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 10, 2018, 12:47:59 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 09:28:21 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 07:40:36 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

I know its probably easier to depict me as an evil monster in your head, so with that depiction you probably know what I was thinking better than the real me does. Post a link like you did in this post.
You have barely addressed my arguments or questions, you just keep going around in circles with the same mantra.

Firstly "Born free" is a well used (American) phrase in the context of liberties I do not think that it is intended to be taken as literally at birth. All rights are not suddenly bestowed on a child at birth.. For example you don't even have the right to vote, work, drive, drink etc until much older, so we are not all equal in terms of rights at birth. Also the right to life before birth to some degree is guaranteed in law in virtually every member state of the UN. Using your interpretation a child could have its life terminated during labour with no legal consequences.
You using a well used phrase out of context as a legal justification.

As I said before Human beings lifecycle is defined at conception and it is from that point that the right to life must be bestowed. To end their life is cruel and inhuman

Of course, I could have well guessed you'd simply dismiss the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as you simply dismiss everything else.

We weren't talking about the right to drive or to work or to drink, but continue on down your rabbit hole by all means.

Of course the unborn are protected to some degree in every state - as they will be here if the proposed legislation is passed. In most states, they're called abortion laws. That's laws, whichare legislated for, as to opoosed to blunt, inflexible constitutional provisions like we have in Ireland.

The crux of the matter is this - we cannot afford the same right to life to the unborn that we afford to an actual born human, because that unborn is contained within an actual born human woman, who must always take precedence.

To afford the same right to life to an unborn as to the born, the reality is you must trample over the human rights of the actual born woman.

That's what Ireland did, and it predictably proved to be a disaster. It is that specific thinking which led to Savita Halappanavar's death and to cases like the Michelle Harte, the X Case and many, many others.

It is an utterly ridiculous point to maintain that a zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it.

Can you tell me why that zygote should have the same right to life as the woman carrying it?

Can I also pose the same question to you specifically that I posed in general to No supporters earlier?

If a woman, say, takes an abortion pill that successfully works to abort an embryo or a foetus (abortion pills can work anywhere up to 12 weeks), should she face 14 years in jail?

You do understand that this is already happening every single day in Ireland and isn't going to stop if No wins?

What is your answer to the thousands of Irish women that are taking abortion pills in this state?

I didn't dismiss the UN Bill of human rights merely pointing out your twisted interpretation of it for your own agenda, all the rights are not present at birth or for a good few years afterwards.

I have repeatedly said that the actual born woman takes precedence so please stop with that straw man.
Repeating a straw man does not make it rational or true.

Under the proposed legislation the unborn child will be afforded no legal protection.
This leads to abortion on request for children that have no health issues there needs to be some degree of legal protection for healthy unborn consensually conceived babies of which the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on.

The punishment should fit the crime and they differ for every circumstance. 14 years seems excessive but I am sure someone could point to a case where a child was naturally conceived where the abortion was carried out in a fit of rage to spite someone else, like a partner. Or because the child is a girl instead of a boy or something like that. In those cases 14years seems about right especially if its a repeat offence.
But 14 years seems excessive for the majority of the convenience abortions, I know a lot of woman are in crisis not thinking straight, bad influences etc etc. I believe women who abandon their babies aren't usually charged, or those suffering postpartum depression who hurt kill their babies are usually found not to be liable for their actions. Similar compassion should with abortion but of course it all depends on the circumstance.

I have answered yours questions so can you answer me this one which I have asked repeatedly...

Since the vast majority of abortions will be carried out on healthy babies should such babies (embyros/humans etc) have no right to life? and should the mother's right to choose always supersede any right to life of the child?
I didn't twist the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in any way.

You talked about the supposed "right to life" as a human right. The way you framed that was clearly as an absolute right. I've already explained why that shouldn't be offered to the unborn and why when it is, as in Ireland's case, it proves to be a disaster.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights doesn't offer it to the unborn and neither do other European countries. That doesn't mean the unborn don't have rights under abortion laws. They clearly do, that is why time limits are imposed for elective abortion.

If you believe the woman carrying an unborn takes precedence, then you believe the 8th Amendment must go as the 8th Amendment denies this.

As I said prevously, abortion is happening in Ireland right now. Thousands of Irish women abort using pills which work up to 12 weeks.

If you believe 14 years is an appropriate punishment, what should be done about these women? How do you plan to catch them and punish them? How do you plan to lock them up, because there are a hell of a lot of them and there isn't space in our prisons for them.

Why are the No campaign furiously denying they want to see any women locked up?

If a woman murders a (born) baby, she will almost certainly go to jail. See the link to the Jennifer Crichton case earlier. I absolutely agree that a woman who murders a baby should go to jail unless there are serious mental health issues at play.

But the so called pro-life side claim that an unborn, from conception, is a human being. Yet they say they don't want women to go to jail if they have an abortion. This doesn't make sense. One either believes that abortion is a human being or they don't, and if they do, why the difference in prescribed punishment, or lack of it, for killing a born baby versus an unborn foetus?

If there is a threat to health at any stage in the pregnancy, I believe the woman's right should always supercede that of the foetus, yes, and it should never ever be subservient in any circumstances. In practice, under the 8th Amendment, it is.

I firmly believe women all should have the right to choose up to a specified time limit. I'm happy with 12 weeks as the limit as it's a hell of a lot better than what we have now, ie. 0, but I would be happier with a higher limit, as I've said, previously, perhaps 16 weeks or 18 as Sweden have. Nevertheless, the fact is that the vast majority of abortions are carried out before 12 weeks. After that, as the foetus develops sentience in the post 20 week period it becomes a matter of balancing rights as is best possible. I'm happy with the provisions for up to 6 months for threat to health etc. After that in the rare cases where the pregnancy needs to ended it will become a case of inducing labour if necessary with the primary aim to save the mother, but also with the aim of delivering a healthy baby. The proposed legislation is a quantum leap forward for Irish women.

The question of possible "exceptions" has been brought up here.

Now, let's say the 8th Amendment is abolished, and legislators are free to frame legislation. The problem with legislating only for, say, rape and incest, is that it would place at least some burden of proof on the mother to prove she had been raped. Under normal circumstances, and as we saw so clearly in Belfast recently, rape is a very difficult crime to prove, and it will never, ever be proved in the time frame of a resulting pregnancy.

So, how do you prove it? We know rape is a hugely underreported crime and in reality there are a huge number of rape victims out there who have never even reported it.

What burden of proof would be required? It would have to be reported for a start. Then a woman would presumably have to come before a panel a very short time after her rape and attempt to prove to some as of yet unknown burden of proof that she had been raped.

During and after Belfast many people talked about how it felt it was the complainant on trial, not the defendants. Legislating only for cases such as rape is a recipe for victims to be put on trial in order to obtain an abortion. I really don't think we want that.

I can get that people don't like abortion. Nobody "likes" abortion. Nobody is saying "go abortion!" But it is necessary for women's welfare for it to be available to all. The alternative is that a particular, narrow view of morality continues to be imposed on everybody. Whereas pro-choice campaigners are not attempting to impose their morality on anybody. Nobody would be forcing anybody to have an abortion.

The reality that No campaigners must face up to is, as I have already said, that abortion is already happening in Ireland. Anybody can buy abortion pills online. They work up to 12 weeks.

So we have thousands of women carrying out their own abortions (currently illegally, of course). Now these pills will generally be safe, but there is always the chance of something going wrong. Perhaps the mother has an underlying health condition which makes it unsafe for her to take an abortion pill.

What happens if something goes wrong? What if a woman has an adverse reaction to the pill and needs urgent medical help? She'll already have been in a vulnerable position given she is taking the pill to terminate her crisis pregnancy in the first place. What goes through her mind? If she goes to a public hospital, she'll have to tell the staff that she has had an abortion via a pill. And what if somebody on the staff is a strict Catholic and reports her? A 14 year prison sentence could hang over her.

So, should we leave women who encounter complications as a result of taking abortion pills to face a nightmarish dilemma between i) not seeking medical help, which could result in grave health implications, and ii) presenting at a hospital and possibly facing prison time?

Or do we face up to reality and legalise it, regulate it and make it safe for everybody?

Because, it is happening, a No vote won't mean it's not happening - it will be delusion, and it will be cowardice. We will just continue on as before, and the reality will be swept under the carpet.

1stly the UN declaration of human rights is not ground zero point for all human rights, its not like human rights began in 1948, they have been around for as long as civilsation has been around and will evolve with generations, human rights are in no way constrained by this declaration they can be built upon and Ireland did this by affording protection to the unborn.

The bit of being born free as I said is a well used phrase regarding civil liberties as it is in the case to intro designed to introduce  the main point of Article #1 which is that we should behave to each other in the spirit of brotherhood, could a new born child suddenly start behaving with conscience and brotherhood? Of course not! it develops over time.

Article 1 or any other Article is not a precondition to all the other rights, every one is entitled to each one regardless of whether they have access the one previous or not

And lastly and most significantly it is a declaration of Human Rights that means all humans should be able to experience these rights at the relevant point in their life, and as I have said an unborn child no matter the stage of development is a unique human so my interpretation is that any relevant rights should extend to them also in this case that would be the right to life.


I said that 14 years may be an appropriate punishment in some extreme cases...for most tho probably not but it depends on each individual circumstance, take another read I thought I made myself perfectly clear. BTW this is not a debate about law enforcement, it is debate about law.

I agree there are complications both moral and legal with rape incest etc etc and I would like there to be a solution for these women. I also agree there are situations when women's health should be put first but again it depends on the situation.

Abortion is happening in Ireland illegally everyone knows that, but that does not make it against the law, it does not make it right. All types of crimes happen in Ireland everyday, it does not mean that we should make them legal.

But in actually fact all these things are actually irrelevant to your reasoning on abortion as you just believe that a woman should be able to choose to terminate her pregnancy up to 18 weeks (is there any rational to that gestational point or just because you feel that way?) for no reason what so ever or just because she doesn't want the hassle of the child, to spite a partner, wrong gender whatever.

I got to wonder why you make such a point about Healthcare when at the end of the day the reason for your position is that you believe that a woman's right to choose overrides an unborn child's to life.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 10, 2018, 10:49:51 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 10, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
... I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.

Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

Like most reasonable people, I respect the convictions of all who have considered the issues and come to a decision. I must say, though, that I have never understood this contention and cannot see how it doesn't destroy the argument of those whose opposition to abortion at any stage is based on the right to life from conception.

If a zygote or foetus has an unquestioned right to life (and I'm not, in this post, addressing that point one way or the other), how is that right so easily withdrawn based on its parentage and how can someone who believes this propose abortion in the case of rape?

It's an excellent and difficult point that I really cannot come to a clear decision on, the life is innocent but the mother has just gone through an horrific ordeal and to carry out the pregnancy would be a constant reminder and an undue burden she should not have to bear.. how do you legislate for it as sid was pointing out the crime would have to be proved. Its difficult but I also think that using cases like this as a crutch to support on request abortion is insincere. One thing I am sure of is that I would not be in favour of serve (if any punishment) in these cases.

But to put it in context there is a similar dilemma for those on the prochoice side but believe there should be a cut off at 6/12/20/24.... weeks. Why should there be a cut off?..... the child needs the mother at any of these cutoff dates so why isn't it still the mother's choice after these dates?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 10, 2018, 11:02:56 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 10:18:48 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 10, 2018, 10:14:05 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

It already has more than 50% support. You'd swear it was the No side that had a 15-25 point lead in every single poll they Way you're paltacting. Not surprised, though.

The last poll I saw was 45/34 for yes/no with the remainder undecided

Extrapolate that to the vote. All those supposedly undecided voters aren't going to uniformly vote No. I think like with most votes people like to pretend they're closer than they really are when a big lead exsists. Anything else just feels boring.

As long as the GOTV is good on the Yes side - and I have every reason to believe that it will be excellent - there will be little drama when the votes are tallied.

The Yes side have a decent lead but not more than 50% support as we stand. The gap has been decreasing so it will all come down to turnout and what way the undecided voters go. I think this will be a very tight result in the end
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 10, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I saw this earlier and I didn't have time to respond in your defence, after others came in.

I can understand your reaction to the personal insults. For someone else then to come in and link your response - on what is clearly a personal issue -  to the wider 'no' vote campaign, is deliberately misleading and provocative.

There are one or two posters here over the years who I have found opinionated, abrupt and abrasive in their debating manner and I have had fall outs as a consequence. However there is a new breed of posters here that have taken those aforementioned 'qualities' to new depths. It doesn't do much for the standard of the debate or the reputation of the forum itself.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 11:34:25 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 10, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I saw this earlier and I didn't have time to respond in your defence, after others came in.

I can understand your reaction to the personal insults. For someone else then to come in and link your response - on what is clearly a personal issue -  to the wider 'no' vote campaign, is deliberately misleading and provocative.

There are one or two posters here over the years who I have found opinionated, abrupt and abrasive in their debating manner and I have had fall outs as a consequence. However there is a new breed of posters here that have taken those aforementioned 'qualities' to new depths. It doesn't do much for the standard of the debate or the reputation of the forum itself.

It's tough when people won't pretend to be nice to you when you hold a hard to defend position, isn't it?

Cry me a river kid, I've got three times the abuse thrown at me and you don't hear me complaining.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 11, 2018, 12:05:20 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 11:34:25 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 10, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I saw this earlier and I didn't have time to respond in your defence, after others came in.

I can understand your reaction to the personal insults. For someone else then to come in and link your response - on what is clearly a personal issue -  to the wider 'no' vote campaign, is deliberately misleading and provocative.

There are one or two posters here over the years who I have found opinionated, abrupt and abrasive in their debating manner and I have had fall outs as a consequence. However there is a new breed of posters here that have taken those aforementioned 'qualities' to new depths. It doesn't do much for the standard of the debate or the reputation of the forum itself.

It's tough when people won't pretend to be nice to you when you hold a hard to defend position, isn't it?

Cry me a river kid, I've got three times the abuse thrown at me and you don't hear me complaining.

You accept therefore that you were deliberately misleading and provocative, and you do so because of the abuse you receive?

I despair. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:33:49 AM
Am I missing something here?

Iceman made a made a personal threat against gallsman to "humble him" if he ever met him in person.

Syferus then says "I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill".

A woman doesn't "finish an embryo" with the morning after pill, that's the whole point. Some posters really aren't the sharpest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that comment.

Most No supporters have very little effort to engage on substantive points here, with some preferring to engage in constant victim playing while dishing out personal abuse themselves.

But apparently it's the No supporters who are being "bullied".

Victim playing on the internet is pretty much always the tool of thse who are losing the argument. It's a classic alt-right technique.

And it's soooo boring.

Classic case of some lads being able to give it but not take it.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:35:39 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 04:02:08 PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-says-court-cannot-rule-when-life-begins-1.1011943

Its an actual legal case, there is no legal definition for birth in Ireland, or rather when life begins
There is no confusion about what birth is.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 10, 2018, 10:49:51 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 10, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
... I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.

Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

Like most reasonable people, I respect the convictions of all who have considered the issues and come to a decision. I must say, though, that I have never understood this contention and cannot see how it doesn't destroy the argument of those whose opposition to abortion at any stage is based on the right to life from conception.

If a zygote or foetus has an unquestioned right to life (and I'm not, in this post, addressing that point one way or the other), how is that right so easily withdrawn based on its parentage and how can someone who believes this propose abortion in the case of rape?

It's an excellent and difficult point that I really cannot come to a clear decision on, the life is innocent but the mother has just gone through an horrific ordeal and to carry out the pregnancy would be a constant reminder and an undue burden she should not have to bear.. how do you legislate for it as sid was pointing out the crime would have to be proved. Its difficult but I also think that using cases like this as a crutch to support on request abortion is insincere. One thing I am sure of is that I would not be in favour of serve (if any punishment) in these cases.

But to put it in context there is a similar dilemma for those on the prochoice side but believe there should be a cut off at 6/12/20/24.... weeks. Why should there be a cut off?..... the child needs the mother at any of these cutoff dates so why isn't it still the mother's choice after these dates?

You have a cut-off point for elective abortion for the obvious reason that a foetus at, say, 26 weeks, is a much different and more developed thing to a 2 week old embryo or a 10 week old foetus.

At some week in the 20s it develops the possibility of viability and the neuroanatomical machinery needed for sensation.

The embryo or foetus has no sentience whatsover during the time period for which elective abortion is being proposed.

Women should have the right to choose and the period in which elective abortion is allowed gives them that. But, as the pregnancy develops, there has to be be a cut-off point where the respective rights of the mother and unborn have to be balanced as much as possible.

Beyond the cut-off point, abortion should remain an option if needed to protect the health or life of the mother. It is unconscionable to have laws which protect an unborn to the extent where continuing with a pregnancy can damage the health or put at risk the life of the mother.

From viability on, if a pregnancy needs to be terminated, every effort should be made to deliver a baby which is healthy as possible.








Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:13:38 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 10:34:58 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 10, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
... I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.

Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

Like most reasonable people, I respect the convictions of all who have considered the issues and come to a decision. I must say, though, that I have never understood this contention and cannot see how it doesn't destroy the argument of those whose opposition to abortion at any stage is based on the right to life from conception.

If a zygote or foetus has an unquestioned right to life (and I'm not, in this post, addressing that point one way or the other), how is that right so easily withdrawn based on its parentage and how can someone who believes this propose abortion in the case of rape?

It is a minimal intervention. If you do not accept the idea of minimal intervention than you can justify abortion to 9 months, or infanticide.
Stopping a pregnancy starting is a different order of magnitude from ending one.
Morning after pills are a different thing to abortion pills. Morning after pills are designed to stop ovulation and prevent a pregnancy rather than terminate a zygote or embryo.

You didn't address the question of how, if you believe life begins at conception, you can believe that abortion is justified based on grounds of rape.

Please stop scaremongering about "justifying abortion to 9 months" or infanticide. That's hysterical stuff.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 11, 2018, 01:16:35 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 11, 2018, 12:05:20 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 11:34:25 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 10, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I saw this earlier and I didn't have time to respond in your defence, after others came in.

I can understand your reaction to the personal insults. For someone else then to come in and link your response - on what is clearly a personal issue -  to the wider 'no' vote campaign, is deliberately misleading and provocative.

There are one or two posters here over the years who I have found opinionated, abrupt and abrasive in their debating manner and I have had fall outs as a consequence. However there is a new breed of posters here that have taken those aforementioned 'qualities' to new depths. It doesn't do much for the standard of the debate or the reputation of the forum itself.

It's tough when people won't pretend to be nice to you when you hold a hard to defend position, isn't it?

Cry me a river kid, I've got three times the abuse thrown at me and you don't hear me complaining.

You accept therefore that you were deliberately misleading and provocative, and you do so because of the abuse you receive?

I despair.

For someone who's trying very hard to portray themselves as the voice of reason you really don't understand basic facts about the female reproductive system.

I doubt you'll have the balls to apologise for attacking me based off your own lack of knowledge, though.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:21:37 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 10, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I saw this earlier and I didn't have time to respond in your defence, after others came in.

I can understand your reaction to the personal insults. For someone else then to come in and link your response - on what is clearly a personal issue -  to the wider 'no' vote campaign, is deliberately misleading and provocative.

There are one or two posters here over the years who I have found opinionated, abrupt and abrasive in their debating manner and I have had fall outs as a consequence. However there is a new breed of posters here that have taken those aforementioned 'qualities' to new depths. It doesn't do much for the standard of the debate or the reputation of the forum itself.

The wider "No" campaign have been only too willing to throw insults around and employ gutter tactics.

Have a look at the Twitter feeds of some of the main figures in the No campaign if you don't believe me.

Have a look at what's happening outside hospitals where people are being routinely intimidated by headbangers thrusting giant pictures of dead foetuses in their faces.

There are no "Yes" campaigners going around thrusting pictures of dead women in people's faces.

Have a look at some of the No campaign's propaganda, lies and deliberate attempts to misinform, as well as their dishonest attempts to gather online information about undecided voters in an attempt to microtarget them.

And yes, it is one side which is overwhelmingly to blame for the poisonous atmosphere around the campaign.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 11, 2018, 01:40:34 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 04:55:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 10, 2018, 04:33:45 PM
Plenty of No voters have legitimate concerns and well thought out arguments for their decision

If the bullying going on here is representative of whats happening in broader society that could cost the Yes side a few percentage points. It happened with Brexit and it happened with Trump

Those are working out well.....!!!!

Won't disagree with you on that.

Not too much respect for others opinions on here. If you do have a different opinion you're either stupid, uninformed, fascist, bigoted, misogynistic.....take your pick
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:11:50 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 10, 2018, 10:37:01 PM


1stly the UN declaration of human rights is not ground zero point for all human rights, its not like human rights began in 1948, they have been around for as long as civilsation has been around and will evolve with generations, human rights are in no way constrained by this declaration they can be built upon and Ireland did this by affording protection to the unborn.
So you imply human rights are unchanging.

Yet the Roman Catholic Church gave no rights to the unborn up 166 days until 1869.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the gold standard setting out the rights of humans. You can dismiss it if you want, but by doing so you are adopting your own personal, arbitrary definition of what human rights are.

QuoteThe bit of being born free as I said is a well used phrase regarding civil liberties as it is in the case to intro designed to introduce  the main point of Article #1 which is that we should behave to each other in the spirit of brotherhood, could a new born child suddenly start behaving with conscience and brotherhood? Of course not! it develops over time.

Article 1 or any other Article is not a precondition to all the other rights, every one is entitled to each one regardless of whether they have access the one previous or not
The word born is included because that's exactly what it refers to when deciding when human rights begin.

The UN has called Ireland's abortion laws "cruel, inhuman and degrading".

I've already explained that you cannot afford the same absolute right to life for the unborn as for born humans without trampling all over the rights of women.

Ireland is a massive outlier in its constitutional provision. It has been a predictable disaster.

Five years ago, pretty much the entirety of those involved in the current No campaign campaigned to stop the Government legislating for abortion even in cases where there was a threat to the life of the mother. That right there was a two fingers to human rights.

You'll forgive me if I don't take any proclamations on "human rights" from the No side seriously, given that they've already proved they aren't interested in them.

QuoteAnd lastly and most significantly it is a declaration of Human Rights that means all humans should be able to experience these rights at the relevant point in their life, and as I have said an unborn child no matter the stage of development is a unique human so my interpretation is that any relevant rights should extend to them also in this case that would be the right to life.
You're saying this. This is your own unique, arbitrary definition of personhood.

A one hour old zygote is clearly not a person.


QuoteI said that 14 years may be an appropriate punishment in some extreme cases...for most tho probably not but it depends on each individual circumstance, take another read I thought I made myself perfectly clear. BTW this is not a debate about law enforcement, it is debate about law.
Again, see the Jennifer Crichton case. Life imprisonment for killing a baby. You will get very few people who disagree that prison is an appropriate punishment for killing a baby.

Yet the No side is at pains to stress they don't want women imprisoned for having an abortion. This makes no sense if they consider a zygote to be a human being.

So, why are the No side clearly differentiating between aborting an unborn and killing a baby in terms of punishment, if they believe abortion is murder?

This drives a coach and horses through their claims that an unborn should have the same rights as a born baby.

QuoteI agree there are complications both moral and legal with rape incest etc etc and I would like there to be a solution for these women. I also agree there are situations when women's health should be put first but again it depends on the situation.
To make exceptions for rape and incest requires an end to the 8th Amendment, because it is by definition an admission that the unborn has an equal right to life as that of the mother.

It is also a statement that not all unborns are equal, because an unborn that is the product of a rape did not choose to be the product of a rape.

QuoteAbortion is happening in Ireland illegally everyone knows that, but that does not make it against the law, it does not make it right. All types of crimes happen in Ireland everyday, it does not mean that we should make them legal.
Laws need to reflect reality. I want laws to reflect reality. You don't.

The constitution already affords the right to abortion in cases of threat to life. It already affords the right to travel for an abortion and the right to information about abortion. So the constitution actully sees no problem with abortion, only with the location of that abortion.

This is farcical.

It's also farcical and cowardly to not deal with the reality of the already widespread self-administering of abortion here. It is sticking your fingers in your ears and whistling away to yourself obliviously.

And it puts women in a tragic dilemma which could have terrible health consequences for them. It would be a disgrace for this state to wash its hands of those women.

QuoteBut in actually fact all these things are actually irrelevant to your reasoning on abortion as you just believe that a woman should be able to choose to terminate her pregnancy up to 18 weeks (is there any rational to that gestational point or just because you feel that way?) for no reason what so ever or just because she doesn't want the hassle of the child, to spite a partner, wrong gender whatever.
Yes, there's loads of rationale as to why I believe it should be 16 or 18 weeks. It affords a generous right to choose for the woman during a period of the pregnancy when the foetus is not a sentient being. I'm guided by medical science on this.

QuoteI got to wonder why you make such a point about Healthcare when at the end of the day the reason for your position is that you believe that a woman's right to choose overrides an unborn child's to life.
There are loads of reasons for my position.

Belief in the right to choose. The evidence that women are denied healthcare. The reality that abortion is already happening and will not cease to happen with a No vote. Protecting women's lives and respecting them. The bleedin' obvious evidence that the current constutional situation is a dumb, inflexible sledgehammer that makes bad law.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 11, 2018, 07:24:28 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:11:50 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 10, 2018, 10:37:01 PM


1stly the UN declaration of human rights is not ground zero point for all human rights, its not like human rights began in 1948, they have been around for as long as civilsation has been around and will evolve with generations, human rights are in no way constrained by this declaration they can be built upon and Ireland did this by affording protection to the unborn.
So you imply human rights are unchanging.

Yet the Roman Catholic Church gave no rights to the unborn up 166 days until 1869.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the gold standard setting out the rights of humans. You can dismiss it if you want, but by doing so you are adopting your own personal, arbitrary definition of what human rights are.

Hmm ... have another read of that there I just said said they evolve and can be built upon but sure knock yourself out.

I have never mentioned Catholic doctrine in this debate ever but you seem fierce keen to bring them into it.

Again I never dismissed it, just dismissing the absurdity of your interpretation to use it for deny the right to life to an unborn child.

Quote
QuoteThe bit of being born free as I said is a well used phrase regarding civil liberties as it is in the case to intro designed to introduce  the main point of Article #1 which is that we should behave to each other in the spirit of brotherhood, could a new born child suddenly start behaving with conscience and brotherhood? Of course not! it develops over time.

Article 1 or any other Article is not a precondition to all the other rights, every one is entitled to each one regardless of whether they have access the one previous or not
The word born is included because that's exactly what it refers to when deciding when human rights begin.

The UN has called Ireland's abortion laws "cruel, inhuman and degrading".

I've already explained that you cannot afford the same absolute right to life for the unborn as for born humans without trampling all over the rights of women.

Ireland is a massive outlier in its constitutional provision. It has been a predictable disaster.

Five years ago, pretty much the entirety of those involved in the current No campaign campaigned to stop the Government legislating for abortion even in cases where there was a threat to the life of the mother. That right there was a two fingers to human rights.

You'll forgive me if I don't take any proclamations on "human rights" from the No side seriously, given that they've already proved they aren't interested in them.

Born free relates to slavery, oppression, imperialism. Twisting it to deny the right to life of the unborn is beyond absurd. And lets not forgetting that it mentions nothing about allowing sanctioning such an act.

I speak for myself not the No campaign or anyone else, linking me to their position that you disagree with doing is yet another logical fallacy, stick to the points in our conversation please

I would say Ireland's laws have been reasonably successful  considering the rate of illegal and overseas abortion on Irish babies is much lower than other countries with abortion legalised, 1000s upon 1000s of lives saved as a result. If the Un wants to call that cruel let them work away
Quote
QuoteAnd lastly and most significantly it is a declaration of Human Rights that means all humans should be able to experience these rights at the relevant point in their life, and as I have said an unborn child no matter the stage of development is a unique human so my interpretation is that any relevant rights should extend to them also in this case that would be the right to life.
You're saying this. This is your own unique, arbitrary definition of personhood.

A one hour old zygote is clearly not a person.

For the craic I googled the definition:
per·son·hood
noun
the quality or condition of being an individual person.

Pretty sure every stage of a human's lifecycle meets the scientific definition to an individual human.
Looks like its not only me but I think you've helped me find a dignified term for the baby/foetus etc.....Unborn person


Quote
QuoteI said that 14 years may be an appropriate punishment in some extreme cases...for most tho probably not but it depends on each individual circumstance, take another read I thought I made myself perfectly clear. BTW this is not a debate about law enforcement, it is debate about law.
Again, see the Jennifer Crichton case. Life imprisonment for killing a baby. You will get very few people who disagree that prison is an appropriate punishment for killing a baby.

Yet the No side is at pains to stress they don't want women imprisoned for having an abortion. This makes no sense if they consider a zygote to be a human being.

So, why are the No side clearly differentiating between aborting an unborn and killing a baby in terms of punishment, if they believe abortion is murder?

This drives a coach and horses through their claims that an unborn should have the same rights as a born baby.
As I said it depends on the circumstance but some women suffering from post natal depression should not be held to account.
I have repeatedly stated that the mother's life comes first and has too, so that does mean that their life is "worth-less" if you want to frame it in those terms so I don't think I am in any crazy level of contradiction here. You will have to find someone who is.

Quote
QuoteI agree there are complications both moral and legal with rape incest etc etc and I would like there to be a solution for these women. I also agree there are situations when women's health should be put first but again it depends on the situation.
To make exceptions for rape and incest requires an end to the 8th Amendment, because it is by definition an admission that the unborn has an equal right to life as that of the mother.
It is also a statement that not all unborns are equal, because an unborn that is the product of a rape did not choose to be the product of a rape.
Yes as I have said before I would be open to this but not one that removes the right altogether and certianly not introducing on demand terminations up to 12weeks

Quote
QuoteAbortion is happening in Ireland illegally everyone knows that, but that does not make it against the law, it does not make it right. All types of crimes happen in Ireland everyday, it does not mean that we should make them legal.
Laws need to reflect reality. I want laws to reflect reality. You don't.

The constitution already affords the right to abortion in cases of threat to life. It already affords the right to travel for an abortion and the right to information about abortion. So the constitution actully sees no problem with abortion, only with the location of that abortion.

This is farcical.

It's also farcical and cowardly to not deal with the reality of the already widespread self-administering of abortion here. It is sticking your fingers in your ears and whistling away to yourself obliviously.

And it puts women in a tragic dilemma which could have terrible health consequences for them. It would be a disgrace for this state to wash its hands of those women.
Laws need to reflect realtiy eh? So remove speed limts as everyone breaks them then? now that is farcial
Let the Hutch and Kinihans tear away at each other cos thats reality???

Quote
QuoteBut in actually fact all these things are actually irrelevant to your reasoning on abortion as you just believe that a woman should be able to choose to terminate her pregnancy up to 18 weeks (is there any rational to that gestational point or just because you feel that way?) for no reason what so ever or just because she doesn't want the hassle of the child, to spite a partner, wrong gender whatever.
Yes, there's loads of rationale as to why I believe it should be 16 or 18 weeks. It affords a generous right to choose for the woman during a period of the pregnancy when the foetus is not a sentient being. I'm guided by medical science on this.

Is sentience your only reason? I mean if you believed that the baby was sentient from 4 weeks would that be your cut off?
Also can I tell you something about sentience, Science knows nothing about it, literally nothing...and doesnt claim too... as it totally subjective. There are a few scientists who even believe that sentience is actually only all an illusion anyway. You don't know what another thing experiences, whether it be another person, an animal, bird, plant, rock... no one knows, now you have a fair idea about people because we can communicate with each other but we can't do that with a child until their 2nd year. The most likely scenario is that as long as a baby is in the womb it is never sentient in the way that we understand it until at least it is born and most likely for a long time after that. But sentience also raises another question about ending other forms of human life in general, is that ok if the victim is not sentient, if someone is in a coma, sleeping, gunshot to the head etc etc. Your at least vegetarian I presume as well.... but then are potatoes sentient? if sentience is your guide its about as wishwashy, unscientific, subjective unknown "thing" going.

I'd prefer to go with something more factual, for example what science does know for sure about an unborn person... and that it is a human from the moment of conception.

Quote
QuoteI got to wonder why you make such a point about Healthcare when at the end of the day the reason for your position is that you believe that a woman's right to choose overrides an unborn child's to life.
There are loads of reasons for my position.

Belief in the right to choose. The evidence that women are denied healthcare. The reality that abortion is already happening and will not cease to happen with a No vote. Protecting women's lives and respecting them. The bleedin' obvious evidence that the current constutional situation is a dumb, inflexible sledgehammer that makes bad law.

Since 90+% of terminations are not medical necessary and you have no issue of that 90+% them I am going to go with that is the main and over riding reason that you support terminations is because you believe the right to choose for a woman overrides the right to life of the unborn person.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 11, 2018, 08:26:06 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 11, 2018, 01:16:35 AM
For someone who's trying very hard to portray themselves as the voice of reason you really don't understand basic facts about the female reproductive system.

I doubt you'll have the balls to apologise for attacking me based off your own lack of knowledge, though.

I have never, ever, got into a debate on this forum on the female reproductive system. Your comment therefore is as bizarre as it is....dare I say it ...misleading and provocative.

I'm sensing a theme here.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 08:36:21 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 11, 2018, 08:26:06 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 11, 2018, 01:16:35 AM
For someone who's trying very hard to portray themselves as the voice of reason you really don't understand basic facts about the female reproductive system.

I doubt you'll have the balls to apologise for attacking me based off your own lack of knowledge, though.

I have never, ever, got into a debate on this forum on the female reproductive system. Your comment therefore is as bizarre as it is....dare I say it ...misleading and provocative.

I'm sensing a theme here.

Rufus - like myself, you've been round here a long time. We don't always agree but I think we have a healthy respect for each other so please take this as it is intended. Put Syferus on ignore and do not engage. He ruins every adult discussion around here if people reply to him so best not to. As someone on the same "side" I find his comments disgusting and embarrassing and undermining the cause he purports to argue for. Cheers.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 11, 2018, 08:42:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 08:36:21 AM
Rufus - like myself, you've been round here a long time. We don't always agree but I think we have a healthy respect for each other so please take this as it is intended. Put Syferus on ignore and do not engage. He ruins every adult discussion around here if people reply to him so best not to. As someone on the same "side" I find his comments disgusting and embarrassing and undermining the cause he purports to argue for. Cheers.

Understood. Sounds like sound advice. Thanks Seanie.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:33:49 AM
Am I missing something here?

Iceman made a made a personal threat against gallsman to "humble him" if he ever met him in person.

Syferus then says "I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill".

A woman doesn't "finish an embryo" with the morning after pill, that's the whole point. Some posters really aren't the sharpest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that comment.

Most No supporters have very little effort to engage on substantive points here, with some preferring to engage in constant victim playing while dishing out personal abuse themselves.

But apparently it's the No supporters who are being "bullied".

Victim playing on the internet is pretty much always the tool of thse who are losing the argument. It's a classic alt-right technique.

And it's soooo boring.

Classic case of some lads being able to give it but not take it.
If you don't believe Syf was making a deliberately antagonizing post to Iceman in his post then we can leave it there. We won't agree on it. It's his MO in most posts. And your generalisation of the No camp on here is also BS. There's been numerous posts by posters on why they feel they should vote no, and others who have explained that they might vote yes but have issues with some of it. Your attempt to whitewash all No voters as victim playing whinges is disingenuous. Just because you might not agree with their viewpoint doesn't make it it any less of an opinion than your own.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 11, 2018, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:33:49 AM
Am I missing something here?

Iceman made a made a personal threat against gallsman to "humble him" if he ever met him in person.

Syferus then says "I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill".

A woman doesn't "finish an embryo" with the morning after pill, that's the whole point. Some posters really aren't the sharpest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that comment.

Most No supporters have very little effort to engage on substantive points here, with some preferring to engage in constant victim playing while dishing out personal abuse themselves.

But apparently it's the No supporters who are being "bullied".

Victim playing on the internet is pretty much always the tool of thse who are losing the argument. It's a classic alt-right technique.

And it's soooo boring.

Classic case of some lads being able to give it but not take it.
If you don't believe Syf was making a deliberately antagonizing post to Iceman in his post then we can leave it there. We won't agree on it. It's his MO in most posts. And your generalisation of the No camp on here is also BS. There's been numerous posts by posters on why they feel they should vote no, and others who have explained that they might vote yes but have issues with some of it. Your attempt to whitewash all No voters as victim playing whinges is disingenuous. Just because you might not agree with their viewpoint doesn't make it it any less of an opinion than your own.

Syf/sid, an Axis or the same person?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 11, 2018, 09:42:17 AM
Mother Ireland still tramping on it's women. https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0511/962713-cabinet-meeting-on-cervical-cancer-controversy/
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 11, 2018, 10:09:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:21:37 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 10, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I saw this earlier and I didn't have time to respond in your defence, after others came in.

I can understand your reaction to the personal insults. For someone else then to come in and link your response - on what is clearly a personal issue -  to the wider 'no' vote campaign, is deliberately misleading and provocative.

There are one or two posters here over the years who I have found opinionated, abrupt and abrasive in their debating manner and I have had fall outs as a consequence. However there is a new breed of posters here that have taken those aforementioned 'qualities' to new depths. It doesn't do much for the standard of the debate or the reputation of the forum itself.

The wider "No" campaign have been only too willing to throw insults around and employ gutter tactics.

Have a look at the Twitter feeds of some of the main figures in the No campaign if you don't believe me.

Have a look at what's happening outside hospitals where people are being routinely intimidated by headbangers thrusting giant pictures of dead foetuses in their faces.

There are no "Yes" campaigners going around thrusting pictures of dead women in people's faces.

Have a look at some of the No campaign's propaganda, lies and deliberate attempts to misinform, as well as their dishonest attempts to gather online information about undecided voters in an attempt to microtarget them.

And yes, it is one side which is overwhelmingly to blame for the poisonous atmosphere around the campaign.

Well this is blatantly not true, both sides are equally odious from what I can see and completely unaware that their tactics are almost identical.

If you're voting yes you're a baby murderer, how could you kill a baby that has hands and feet, it'll be abortion on demand next.

If you're voting no then you're killing mothers by not allowing them the right to life in cases of FFA

Both poisonous extremes. Sid you seem to be completely oblivious that you do exactly what you accuse the NO side of. Yer both at it, it would put me off voting altogether

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 10:23:44 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 11, 2018, 10:09:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:21:37 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 10, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I saw this earlier and I didn't have time to respond in your defence, after others came in.

I can understand your reaction to the personal insults. For someone else then to come in and link your response - on what is clearly a personal issue -  to the wider 'no' vote campaign, is deliberately misleading and provocative.

There are one or two posters here over the years who I have found opinionated, abrupt and abrasive in their debating manner and I have had fall outs as a consequence. However there is a new breed of posters here that have taken those aforementioned 'qualities' to new depths. It doesn't do much for the standard of the debate or the reputation of the forum itself.

The wider "No" campaign have been only too willing to throw insults around and employ gutter tactics.

Have a look at the Twitter feeds of some of the main figures in the No campaign if you don't believe me.

Have a look at what's happening outside hospitals where people are being routinely intimidated by headbangers thrusting giant pictures of dead foetuses in their faces.

There are no "Yes" campaigners going around thrusting pictures of dead women in people's faces.

Have a look at some of the No campaign's propaganda, lies and deliberate attempts to misinform, as well as their dishonest attempts to gather online information about undecided voters in an attempt to microtarget them.

And yes, it is one side which is overwhelmingly to blame for the poisonous atmosphere around the campaign.

Well this is blatantly not true, both sides are equally odious from what I can see and completely unaware that their tactics are almost identical.

If you're voting yes you're a baby murderer, how could you kill a baby that has hands and feet, it'll be abortion on demand next.

If you're voting no then you're killing mothers by not allowing them the right to life in cases of FFA

Both poisonous extremes. Sid you seem to be completely oblivious that you do exactly what you accuse the NO side of. Yer both at it, it would put me off voting altogether

It's not enough to just state blandly that "both sides" are equally odious, when the evidence so clearly suggests otherwise.

Facts not feelings please.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 10:42:30 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:33:49 AM
Am I missing something here?

Iceman made a made a personal threat against gallsman to "humble him" if he ever met him in person.

Syferus then says "I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill".

A woman doesn't "finish an embryo" with the morning after pill, that's the whole point. Some posters really aren't the sharpest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that comment.

Most No supporters have very little effort to engage on substantive points here, with some preferring to engage in constant victim playing while dishing out personal abuse themselves.

But apparently it's the No supporters who are being "bullied".

Victim playing on the internet is pretty much always the tool of thse who are losing the argument. It's a classic alt-right technique.

And it's soooo boring.

Classic case of some lads being able to give it but not take it.
If you don't believe Syf was making a deliberately antagonizing post to Iceman in his post then we can leave it there. We won't agree on it. It's his MO in most posts. And your generalisation of the No camp on here is also BS. There's been numerous posts by posters on why they feel they should vote no, and others who have explained that they might vote yes but have issues with some of it. Your attempt to whitewash all No voters as victim playing whinges is disingenuous. Just because you might not agree with their viewpoint doesn't make it it any less of an opinion than your own.
Like a lot ultra-conservative reactionaries on this forum, Iceman has a strong tendency to of throw in not only deliberately antagonistic comments, but bilious threats, which are actually unintentionally hilarious, and he certainly did here. I've no problem with antagonistic comments, we're big boys and girls here, but by threatening other people, you only make a fool of yourself. And like other conservative reactionaries he tends to not debate and not answer valid questions. For example, I posed some very reasonable questions to him about his views, which he has made no attempt to answer.

The reality is that most No posters are strangely reticent to actually debate, and do prefer to play the victim. And that's what the wider No camp does.

The same tired, cliched, reality-denying technqiues, over and over and over and over again. Gaslighting, I believe it's called.

These are the techniques of people whose views are based on dogma, not facts.

You still haven't told me what was wrong with Syferus's comment.

It was delightfully withering, actually - which, to be absolutely fair, is all Iceman deserves.







Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 11, 2018, 11:09:21 AM
Are you referring to all No voters here sid? Because if you are, then you are referring to me,and I would take exception to that. I also wouldn't count myself as ultra conservative. I'd be slightly left of centre on social issues. I think the No voters would be across a fair portion of the spectrum. I also think a Venn Diagram of voters would show a fairly significant intersection of No Voters appearing in the 'Voted Yes on Marriage Equality' section.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 11:18:42 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 10:42:30 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:33:49 AM
Am I missing something here?

Iceman made a made a personal threat against gallsman to "humble him" if he ever met him in person.

Syferus then says "I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill".

A woman doesn't "finish an embryo" with the morning after pill, that's the whole point. Some posters really aren't the sharpest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that comment.

Most No supporters have very little effort to engage on substantive points here, with some preferring to engage in constant victim playing while dishing out personal abuse themselves.

But apparently it's the No supporters who are being "bullied".

Victim playing on the internet is pretty much always the tool of thse who are losing the argument. It's a classic alt-right technique.

And it's soooo boring.

Classic case of some lads being able to give it but not take it.
If you don't believe Syf was making a deliberately antagonizing post to Iceman in his post then we can leave it there. We won't agree on it. It's his MO in most posts. And your generalisation of the No camp on here is also BS. There's been numerous posts by posters on why they feel they should vote no, and others who have explained that they might vote yes but have issues with some of it. Your attempt to whitewash all No voters as victim playing whinges is disingenuous. Just because you might not agree with their viewpoint doesn't make it it any less of an opinion than your own.
Like a lot ultra-conservative reactionaries on this forum, Iceman has a history of throwing in not only deliberately antagonistic comments, but bilious threats, which are actually unintentionally hilarious, and he certainly did here. And like other conservative reactionaries he tends to not debate and not answer valid questions. For example, I posed some very reasonable questions to him about his views, which he has made no attempt to answer.

The reality is that most No posters are strangely reticent to actually debate, and do prefer to play the victim. And that's what the wider No camp does.

The same tired, cliched, reality-denying technqiues, over and over and over and over again. Gaslighting, I believe it's called.

These are the techniques of people whose views are based on dogma, not facts.

You still haven't told me what was wrong with Syferus's comment.

It was delightfully withering, actually - which, to be absolutely fair, is all Iceman deserves.

You keep saying this but this thread has shown debate, people have explained why they have issues / concerns over the ruling. Your inability to accept that makes it hard to move forward. You might not agree with some of the debate that the No camp have put forward, which is fair enough. But you constantly give out that they are whingers and then you go on to belittle them. People in the no camp aren't doing it to be contrary and their basis, rightly or wrongly is with regards to life. If their view on when life begins differs from yours, that's fine. That's the reason they hold a different viewpoint, it's not out of any vindictive plan to restrict the rights of women across the country for no reason. I felt initially that I would vote no, but have swayed to yes. But I understand where a lot of the issues that No supporters struggle with. You can debate and still feel empathy with the other side.

With regards to the comment from Syf, I found it in bad taste (Although I'll admit I had picked it up as an early abortive nature rather than preventative when first reading it so apologies to Syf on that). So I'll hold my hands up on that.




Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 11:48:22 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 11, 2018, 11:09:21 AM
Are you referring to all No voters here sid? Because if you are, then you are referring to me,and I would take exception to that. I also wouldn't count myself as ultra conservative. I'd be slightly left of centre on social issues. I think the No voters would be across a fair portion of the spectrum. I also think a Venn Diagram of voters would show a fairly significant intersection of No Voters appearing in the 'Voted Yes on Marriage Equality' section.
I didn't refer to all No voters. I refer to most No voters.

I think you'll find a way more significant crossover between No voters in the marriage referendum and No voters in this referendum.

I'd say pretty much 100% of those who voted No in 2015 and who can still vote, will be voting No this time.

At most there is around 10% of the voters in 2015 who may vote No this time and current polls show it will be significantly less than that.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 11, 2018, 11:56:40 AM
Ok, so here is a selection of tweets with #repealthe8th


At a repeal panel talk recently one of the speakers said the No campaign were already making post-referendum plans for further reducing women's rights in Ireland if they win. She said they will be pushing for women to be jailed for the 14 years. THAT'S what's at stake here.


Look at them. Not one will get pregnant as a result of rape. Not one of them will have their cancer treatment stopped because they are pregnant. Not one of them will have a crisis pregnancy. Not an ounce of compassion among any them. " Support women" my arse. #Repeal8th

#voteno nazi bus is in Carlow with its brit yellow reg, the amount of lads trying to tell me to vote against my sisters, mothers, daughters and friends, f**k off. #VoteYes #repeal8th #menforyes

When women/men on RTÉ say they haven't decided yet b/c they haven't heard enough - here! - dailymail.co.uk/debate/article...  see also comments 7 re 1940s and 10 re 1960s. My question: Does Éire want 2b the latest Nazi regime? #8thAmendment #Repeal8th  #Abortion #IrishDoctors #protectlife

One thing I've learned this month: the Venn diagram of anti-choice, racist, homophobic and misogynistic people: ⭕️ #RepealThe8th #together4yes #TogetherForYes #Repeal8th

I have an intellectually-disabled daughter. She cannot understand consent. If she were ever pregnant, it would be through rape. If that ever happened, would you come to my house and tell me what is best for my child? Because that is what your No vote means, in practice. /1

The last one is particularly annoying, so we should legislate for disabled people who get raped, FFS, that is not how things work!


For balance the other side is just as bad

Yes, cry. Cry for all the babies that will be killed as a result if our Constitution is changed. Yes, cry for all the babies already killed in Ireland, in the first 2 weeks of life, and in our hospitals after the 2013 Act .#repealthe8th,#savethe8th,#ProLife

You are right. The deliberate killing of unborn babies is an atrocity. Every baby killed in their mothers womb is a sacrifice to Satan.#repealthe8th, #savethe8th, #prolife

Uhm ... I am trying to remember the last time a European republic chose to un-person a category of human being that previously were recognised as holders of right to life? Oh well of to google histories ... or may be a trip? Wannsee?

Are we really going to place unborn babies in a subhuman class and strip them of all constitutional rights?
The objective being to allow them to be lawfully killed with no restriction as to reason.
Progressive?

Much easier for a tyranny to destroy children in some quick fix kill than invest in measures to support them; the latter of which can be politically risky. So it's a way of pressurising poor people to kill their children. In sum, abortion is a hyper-austerity measure. #savethe8th
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:02:21 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 11:18:42 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 10:42:30 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:33:49 AM
Am I missing something here?

Iceman made a made a personal threat against gallsman to "humble him" if he ever met him in person.

Syferus then says "I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill".

A woman doesn't "finish an embryo" with the morning after pill, that's the whole point. Some posters really aren't the sharpest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that comment.

Most No supporters have very little effort to engage on substantive points here, with some preferring to engage in constant victim playing while dishing out personal abuse themselves.

But apparently it's the No supporters who are being "bullied".

Victim playing on the internet is pretty much always the tool of thse who are losing the argument. It's a classic alt-right technique.

And it's soooo boring.

Classic case of some lads being able to give it but not take it.
If you don't believe Syf was making a deliberately antagonizing post to Iceman in his post then we can leave it there. We won't agree on it. It's his MO in most posts. And your generalisation of the No camp on here is also BS. There's been numerous posts by posters on why they feel they should vote no, and others who have explained that they might vote yes but have issues with some of it. Your attempt to whitewash all No voters as victim playing whinges is disingenuous. Just because you might not agree with their viewpoint doesn't make it it any less of an opinion than your own.
Like a lot ultra-conservative reactionaries on this forum, Iceman has a history of throwing in not only deliberately antagonistic comments, but bilious threats, which are actually unintentionally hilarious, and he certainly did here. And like other conservative reactionaries he tends to not debate and not answer valid questions. For example, I posed some very reasonable questions to him about his views, which he has made no attempt to answer.

The reality is that most No posters are strangely reticent to actually debate, and do prefer to play the victim. And that's what the wider No camp does.

The same tired, cliched, reality-denying technqiues, over and over and over and over again. Gaslighting, I believe it's called.

These are the techniques of people whose views are based on dogma, not facts.

You still haven't told me what was wrong with Syferus's comment.

It was delightfully withering, actually - which, to be absolutely fair, is all Iceman deserves.

You keep saying this but this thread has shown debate, people have explained why they have issues / concerns over the ruling. Your inability to accept that makes it hard to move forward. You might not agree with some of the debate that the No camp have put forward, which is fair enough. But you constantly give out that they are whingers and then you go on to belittle them. People in the no camp aren't doing it to be contrary and their basis, rightly or wrongly is with regards to life. If their view on when life begins differs from yours, that's fine. That's the reason they hold a different viewpoint, it's not out of any vindictive plan to restrict the rights of women across the country for no reason. I felt initially that I would vote no, but have swayed to yes. But I understand where a lot of the issues that No supporters struggle with. You can debate and still feel empathy with the other side.

With regards to the comment from Syf, I found it in bad taste (Although I'll admit I had picked it up as an early abortive nature rather than preventative when first reading it so apologies to Syf on that). So I'll hold my hands up on that.
The No side were the ones who started whinging here - let's get that straight. And that's the case in the wider campaign.

Ultimately their objections come down to a particular moral belief that a one hour old zygote deserves the same rights as a born woman.

That's pretty much it.

There are a whole host of serious issues with the 8th Amendment. I haven't seen one addressed properly, either here or in the wider campaign.

I have seen no positive case from the No campaign for keeping the 8th Amendment, only scaremongering and fear against the Yes side.

If the 8th Amendment didn't exist, what would be the positive case for introducing it?

Same as with the ban on contraception, the ban on divorce, the criminalisation of homosexuality, the failure to legislate for abortion where there was a threat to life.

If there were referendums now on banning contraception, divorce, homosexuality, same sex marriage or on overturning the X Case, ie abolishing the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, what do you think the results of any of these would be?

The same people who wanted to ban all those things are for banning abortion. Figures.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
The whinging on here started with you on the first page of the thread.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.


This was before any debate on here with regards to the whys and wherefores of why people had their positions. Your first post was to have a whinge at the no side before anyone on here really got into a debate on the subject. So spare me the "it's all coming from the no side" BS.
You are right the difference is down to that one point on when life begins. I would certainly struggle to accept aborting a 11 week old fetus, but understand that there can be circumstances where the alternative is equally harrowing. So it's hard to draw a line in the sand and say this is the point after which there is life and therefore should be protected. And that's been debated in this thread multiple times. And it's an interesting debate when you open yourself up to considering other peoples viewpoints. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:33:01 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 11, 2018, 11:56:40 AM
Ok, so here is a selection of tweets with #repealthe8th


At a repeal panel talk recently one of the speakers said the No campaign were already making post-referendum plans for further reducing women's rights in Ireland if they win. She said they will be pushing for women to be jailed for the 14 years. THAT'S what's at stake here.

14 years is the penalty on the books for abortion. That's a fact. If you want to keep abortion banned, it's illogical and hypocritcal not to want to imprison women who have abortions.


Look at them. Not one will get pregnant as a result of rape. Not one of them will have their cancer treatment stopped because they are pregnant. Not one of them will have a crisis pregnancy. Not an ounce of compassion among any them. " Support women" my arse. #Repeal8th

A perfectly legitimate view, and one I hold. For one to consider the real issues at play here and to still think the 8th Amendment is a good thing, I think ultimately, yes you have to leave compassion and empathy at the door.

#voteno nazi bus is in Carlow with its brit yellow reg, the amount of lads trying to tell me to vote against my sisters, mothers, daughters and friends, f**k off. #VoteYes #repeal8th #menforyes

When women/men on RTÉ say they haven't decided yet b/c they haven't heard enough - here! - dailymail.co.uk/debate/article...  see also comments 7 re 1940s and 10 re 1960s. My question: Does Éire want 2b the latest Nazi regime? #8thAmendment #Repeal8th  #Abortion #IrishDoctors #protectlife

I've seen the Nazi slurs thrown around a lot more on the No side than on the Yes side - feminists are frequently referred to as Nazis (plenty of times on this forum by the way) and No supporters frequently call the Yes side "Nazis". Calling others "Nazis" and "fascists" (and, simultaneously and rather ironically, "communists") is a very big thing particularly with the conservative religious right in America, and it has spread to Ireland. I don't agree with calling anybody a Nazi, but there certainly a lot more similarities between that sort of ideology and the No side - given that the 8th Amendment is very similar to actual Nazi policy, as well as the perpetual imagined victimhood, the misgogynism, the attempts to impose your views on others through the constituion and law, the bullying tactics, the links to all sorts of right-wing groups with abhorrent agendas for society in general.



One thing I've learned this month: the Venn diagram of anti-choice, racist, homophobic and misogynistic people: ⭕️ #RepealThe8th #together4yes #TogetherForYes #Repeal8th

There is a very strong crossover. Not all No supporters are racist or homophobic, but pretty much 100% of racists and homophobes in this country are supporting No. When it comes down to the issues, the inescapable conclusion I come to is that to vote No, you have to be on some level a misogynist or at leastprepared to support misogynism. Most no voters would clearly feel otherwise, but ultimately, they are supporting a misogynistic constitutional provision with deeply misogynistic outomes.

I have an intellectually-disabled daughter. She cannot understand consent. If she were ever pregnant, it would be through rape. If that ever happened, would you come to my house and tell me what is best for my child? Because that is what your No vote means, in practice. /1

It is.

The last one is particularly annoying, so we should legislate for disabled people who get raped, FFS, that is not how things work!

I'm sorry? You are suggesting that the the law in this country should make no provision whatsoever for such cases. That is cowardice and wilful abdication of responsibility and the very essence of why the 8th Amendment doesn't work.

You are saying in other words that a disabled woman who is raped and made pregnant as a result, should be forced to carry that pregnancy to term. And you wonder why Yes voters think that No voters lack compassion and empathy....


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:50:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
The whinging on here started with you on the first page of the thread.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.


This was before any debate on here with regards to the whys and wherefores of why people had their positions. Your first post was to have a whinge at the no side before anyone on here really got into a debate on the subject. So spare me the "it's all coming from the no side" BS.
You are right the difference is down to that one point on when life begins. I would certainly struggle to accept aborting a 11 week old fetus, but understand that there can be circumstances where the alternative is equally harrowing. So it's hard to draw a line in the sand and say this is the point after which there is life and therefore should be protected. And that's been debated in this thread multiple times. And it's an interesting debate when you open yourself up to considering other peoples viewpoints.
You clearly don't understand what "whinging" is.

The fact is that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation and from the official No campaign and its constituent entities and it was obvious there was going to be before it started given that the No campaign had engaged Aggregate IQ. The No campaign was and is engaging in deceitful methods to gather details about undecided voters through fake "unbiased" Facebook pages.

There is no such parallel campaign on the Yes side.

So called "pro-life" groups, and particularly the American-based ones, have a long track record of propaganda and disinformation - far right groups in general have a long and storied history of such, and never more so than now.

One's attitude to the methods of the Brexit and Trump campaigns says a lot about one's attitude to democracy and whether one takes it seriously or not. This holds firm for this referendum campaign, as the same tactics being used by Brexit and Trump are again in use by the NO campaign. I mean, have you opened your eyes at all over the last few weeks?

Objecting to lies and disinformation is not whinging. It's correctly demanding that the campaign be fought on the issues. Democracy is not a joke.

Your rationale here appears to be that political campaigns should be allowed to get away with disinformation and dishonest trickery. But if anybody objects, they're "whingers" apparently. That is reasoning straight out of the school playground.








Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 11, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
I've seen the Nazi slurs thrown around a lot more on the No side than on the Yes side - feminists are frequently referred to as Nazis

My point was that both sides are horrible, your response is basically "well they started it"

I'm sorry? You are suggesting that the the law in this country should make no provision whatsoever for such cases. That is cowardice and wilful abdication of responsibility and the very essence of why the 8th Amendment doesn't work.

You are saying in other words that a disabled woman who is raped and made pregnant as a result, should be forced to carry that pregnancy to term. And you wonder why Yes voters think that No voters lack compassion and empathy....


So I work in an industry where we write risk assessments for everything. You can never write everything that could possibly happen, you just can't

Likewise with laws, you can never legislate for everything, the amount of disabled women who get raped will be less that 0.0001%.
We do make provision for rape and we do make provision for abortion.


One thing I've learned this month: the Venn diagram of anti-choice, racist, homophobic and misogynistic people: ⭕️ #RepealThe8th #together4yes #TogetherForYes #Repeal8th

There is a very strong crossover.


It is outrageous that anyone would think there is a strong crossover, my mam is voting No, she is literally none of the above. This is exactly the counter balance for the No side calling people baby murders

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 11, 2018, 01:07:47 PM
It will be interesting to see how voting patterns will pan out across the country and whether there will be any noticeable Dublin/country divides or indeed social class divides.

There are some who believe that socio-economic factors might be a factor in some womens' choosing to have abortions in the first 12 weeks as exemplified by the following extract from a letter to yesterday's Indo from a medical professional :

"In my experience, terminations in the first trimester (12 weeks) are undertaken for social reasons – loss of education possibilities, shame on the family name, or potential employment opportunities – and these women come from the more leafy areas of our cities.
In the poorer areas, women tend to use termination as a last option but then they may not have the chances that their wealthier sisters have.
First-trimester terminations are not a healthcare issue but are, in my opinion, a social decision".


I'm sure that this letter writer's opinion will be deemed very non-politically correct at best but I do believe there is more than a grain of truth in what he says.

Question to Sid – why do you have to shoot down every contribution that is contrary to your own beliefs ?  You continually demonstrate an intolerance to those who have chosen to vote NO. Your bombarding this thread with multiple posts is akin to continual interruptions and shouting down the oppositions in a real debate scenario – you would be shown the door very quickly in such a situation.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:50:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
The whinging on here started with you on the first page of the thread.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.


This was before any debate on here with regards to the whys and wherefores of why people had their positions. Your first post was to have a whinge at the no side before anyone on here really got into a debate on the subject. So spare me the "it's all coming from the no side" BS.
You are right the difference is down to that one point on when life begins. I would certainly struggle to accept aborting a 11 week old fetus, but understand that there can be circumstances where the alternative is equally harrowing. So it's hard to draw a line in the sand and say this is the point after which there is life and therefore should be protected. And that's been debated in this thread multiple times. And it's an interesting debate when you open yourself up to considering other peoples viewpoints.
You clearly don't understand what "whinging" is.

The fact is that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation and from the official No campaign and its constituent entities and it was obvious there was going to be before it started given that the No campaign had engaged Aggregate IQ. The No campaign was and is engaging in deceitful methods to gather details about undecided voters through fake "unbiased" Facebook pages.

There is no such parallel campaign on the Yes side.

So called "pro-life" groups, and particularly the American-based ones, have a long track record of propaganda and disinformation - far right groups in general have a long and storied history of such, and never more so than now.

One's attitude to the methods of the Brexit and Trump campaigns says a lot about one's attitude to democracy and whether one takes it seriously or not. This holds firm for this referendum campaign, as the same tactics being used by Brexit and Trump are again in use by the NO campaign. I mean, have you opened your eyes at all over the last few weeks?

Objecting to lies and disinformation is not whinging. It's correctly demanding that the campaign be fought on the issues. Democracy is not a joke.

Your rationale here appears to be that political campaigns should be allowed to get away with disinformation and dishonest trickery. But if anybody objects, they're "whingers" apparently. That is reasoning straight out of the school playground.


Whinging - complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way. You have very much done that about the no side in this thread.

We were chatting about on this thread. No one on the thread had posted any disinformation. A debate hadn't even broken out, but instead of starting the debate you went after the other side rather than debating your own beliefs. Not all the information coming from the no side is disinformation yet you have consistently generalised against the no side in most of your posts.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:23:09 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 11, 2018, 01:07:47 PM


Question to Sid – why do you have to shoot down every contribution that is contrary to your own beliefs ?  You continually demonstrate an intolerance to those who have chosen to vote NO. Your bombarding this thread with multiple posts is akin to continual interruptions and shouting down the oppositions in a real debate scenario – you would be shown the door very quickly in such a situation.
This is a discussion forum.

Points are there to be debated.

If I see a point that I don't agree with, why shouldn't I engage with it and question it?

Your post here is the very definition of the "whinging" from the No side that I'm talking about.  You appear to believe you should not be questioned. You deliberately and mendaciously brand debate as "bullying" to portray yourself as a victim.

That's not an attempt to debate - it's an attempt to shut down debate.

Belief systems are there to be questioned. You can have any belief system you want - but if you can't defend it, you shouldn't then expect others to take it seriously.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:30:41 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:50:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
The whinging on here started with you on the first page of the thread.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.


This was before any debate on here with regards to the whys and wherefores of why people had their positions. Your first post was to have a whinge at the no side before anyone on here really got into a debate on the subject. So spare me the "it's all coming from the no side" BS.
You are right the difference is down to that one point on when life begins. I would certainly struggle to accept aborting a 11 week old fetus, but understand that there can be circumstances where the alternative is equally harrowing. So it's hard to draw a line in the sand and say this is the point after which there is life and therefore should be protected. And that's been debated in this thread multiple times. And it's an interesting debate when you open yourself up to considering other peoples viewpoints.
You clearly don't understand what "whinging" is.

The fact is that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation and from the official No campaign and its constituent entities and it was obvious there was going to be before it started given that the No campaign had engaged Aggregate IQ. The No campaign was and is engaging in deceitful methods to gather details about undecided voters through fake "unbiased" Facebook pages.

There is no such parallel campaign on the Yes side.

So called "pro-life" groups, and particularly the American-based ones, have a long track record of propaganda and disinformation - far right groups in general have a long and storied history of such, and never more so than now.

One's attitude to the methods of the Brexit and Trump campaigns says a lot about one's attitude to democracy and whether one takes it seriously or not. This holds firm for this referendum campaign, as the same tactics being used by Brexit and Trump are again in use by the NO campaign. I mean, have you opened your eyes at all over the last few weeks?

Objecting to lies and disinformation is not whinging. It's correctly demanding that the campaign be fought on the issues. Democracy is not a joke.

Your rationale here appears to be that political campaigns should be allowed to get away with disinformation and dishonest trickery. But if anybody objects, they're "whingers" apparently. That is reasoning straight out of the school playground.


You have very much done that about the no side in this thread.

We were chatting about on this thread. No one on the thread had posted any disinformation. A debate hadn't even broken out, but instead of starting the debate you went after the other side rather than debating your own beliefs. Not all the information coming from the no side is disinformation yet you have consistently generalised against the no side in most of your posts.
Are you denying that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation coming from the No campaign?

Do you think this is relevant to the discussion?

Do you think it's correct to object to such a campaign?

If Donald Trump chants "lock her up", or says about a debate moderator "there was blood coming out of her eyes, there was blood coming out of wherever", is it whinging to object to such?

If the No campaign says that a nine week old foetus can yawn, which is a lie, is that disinformation? Is it correct to object to such?

Or is it "whinging"?

QuoteWhinging - complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.
I've seen a hell of a lot of that from No-supporting posters over the last couple of days.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 11, 2018, 01:39:41 PM
Who pays for the abortion up to 12 weeks without justification?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 11, 2018, 01:54:37 PM
Getting tighter folks
Yes 40.66%
No  39.56%
Undecided  19.78%

Sid's posts are obviously having an effect.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:30:41 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:50:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
The whinging on here started with you on the first page of the thread.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.


This was before any debate on here with regards to the whys and wherefores of why people had their positions. Your first post was to have a whinge at the no side before anyone on here really got into a debate on the subject. So spare me the "it's all coming from the no side" BS.
You are right the difference is down to that one point on when life begins. I would certainly struggle to accept aborting a 11 week old fetus, but understand that there can be circumstances where the alternative is equally harrowing. So it's hard to draw a line in the sand and say this is the point after which there is life and therefore should be protected. And that's been debated in this thread multiple times. And it's an interesting debate when you open yourself up to considering other peoples viewpoints.
You clearly don't understand what "whinging" is.

The fact is that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation and from the official No campaign and its constituent entities and it was obvious there was going to be before it started given that the No campaign had engaged Aggregate IQ. The No campaign was and is engaging in deceitful methods to gather details about undecided voters through fake "unbiased" Facebook pages.

There is no such parallel campaign on the Yes side.

So called "pro-life" groups, and particularly the American-based ones, have a long track record of propaganda and disinformation - far right groups in general have a long and storied history of such, and never more so than now.

One's attitude to the methods of the Brexit and Trump campaigns says a lot about one's attitude to democracy and whether one takes it seriously or not. This holds firm for this referendum campaign, as the same tactics being used by Brexit and Trump are again in use by the NO campaign. I mean, have you opened your eyes at all over the last few weeks?

Objecting to lies and disinformation is not whinging. It's correctly demanding that the campaign be fought on the issues. Democracy is not a joke.

Your rationale here appears to be that political campaigns should be allowed to get away with disinformation and dishonest trickery. But if anybody objects, they're "whingers" apparently. That is reasoning straight out of the school playground.


You have very much done that about the no side in this thread.

We were chatting about on this thread. No one on the thread had posted any disinformation. A debate hadn't even broken out, but instead of starting the debate you went after the other side rather than debating your own beliefs. Not all the information coming from the no side is disinformation yet you have consistently generalised against the no side in most of your posts.
Are you denying that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation coming from the No campaign?

Do you think this is relevant to the discussion?

Do you think it's correct to object to such a campaign?

If Donald Trump chants "lock her up", or says about a debate moderator "there was blood coming out of her eyes, there was blood coming out of wherever", is it whinging to object to such?

If the No campaign says that a nine week old foetus can yawn, which is a lie, is that disinformation? Is it correct to object to such?

Or is it "whinging"?

QuoteWhinging - complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.
I've seen a hell of a lot of that from No-supporting posters over the last couple of days.

Some of it is relevant yes. But is it the first thing you'd go for in a debate when everything that your complaining about hasn't been used or put forward on this board? Why did you think the best form of debating your position was to go straight out on the attack against the no side and using the actions of some of the no camp to tarnish the whole side? And you have done that repeatedly on this thread.
To me that form of debate just locks in peoples views and people get defensive. Syf is typical of this style of debating so that even when he's correct, the way he goes about it makes it counter productive.




Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:28:42 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 11, 2018, 07:24:28 AM

Hmm ... have another read of that there I just said said they evolve and can be built upon but sure knock yourself out.

I have never mentioned Catholic doctrine in this debate ever but you seem fierce keen to bring them into it.

Again I never dismissed it, just dismissing the absurdity of your interpretation to use it for deny the right to life to an unborn child.

Quote
Firstly, Roman Catholic doctrine was the main reason the 8th Amendment was brought in in the first place. The Pro-Life Amendment campaign was inextricably linked to the Roman Catholic Church.

Secondly, yes, you are dismissing the Universal Declaration on Human Rights because it gives it expressly applies to the born, not the unborn.

This is contained in Article 1.

QuoteBorn free relates to slavery, oppression, imperialism. Twisting it to deny the right to life of the unborn is beyond absurd. And lets not forgetting that it mentions nothing about allowing sanctioning such an act.

I speak for myself not the No campaign or anyone else, linking me to their position that you disagree with doing is yet another logical fallacy, stick to the points in our conversation please

I would say Ireland's laws have been reasonably successful  considering the rate of illegal and overseas abortion on Irish babies is much lower than other countries with abortion legalised, 1000s upon 1000s of lives saved as a result. If the Un wants to call that cruel let them work away

Here's the rationale for why the UN calls Ireland's abortion ban "cruel, inhuman and degrading".

Quote
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/un-says-ireland-s-abortion-ban-cruel-inhuman-or-degrading-1.2678246

The independent experts, from the Geneva-based Human Rights Committee, said Amanda Mellet was forced to choose between carrying her baby to term, knowing it would not survive, or travelling abroad for a termination.

The UN body also hit out at the Government for putting her through financial and emotional suffering.

Its report said she had to pick "between continuing her non-viable pregnancy or travelling to another country while carrying a dying foetus, at personal expense and separated from the support of her family, and to return while not fully recovered".

The UN has ordered the Government to compensate Ms Mellet and ensure she gets the adequate psychological treatment she may need and to prevent similar violations from occurring. It has also told the Government to report to it within six months on the measures it has taken to comply with the decision.

Ms Mellet was 21 weeks pregnant in November 2011 when medics told her the foetus would die in her womb or shortly after birth.

She travelled to the UK for an abortion but had to return home 12 hours after the procedure as she could not afford to stay longer.

The UN committee said the hospital where she was treated did not provide any options regarding the foetus's remains and she had to leave them behind.

Three weeks later the ashes were unexpectedly delivered to her by courier.

And again, from 2017:

Quote
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-abortion-law-violated-woman-s-human-rights-un-says-1.3118145

A United Nations committee has found Ireland violated the human rights of a woman who had to travel to Britain for an abortion after her baby was diagnosed with a fatal foetal abnormality.

The UN human rights committee has told the State to pay compensation to the woman, Siobhán Whelan, and to provide psychological treatment to her.

It also says Ireland needs to prevent similar violations of the rights of women by changing its laws on abortion.

QuoteFor the craic I googled the definition:
per·son·hood
noun
the quality or condition of being an individual person.

Pretty sure every stage of a human's lifecycle meets the scientific definition to an individual human.
Looks like its not only me but I think you've helped me find a dignified term for the baby/foetus etc.....Unborn person
You've demolished your own case there.

A foetus is not an indvidual person because it relies entirely for life on the woman it lies inside.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't have rights beyond the cut-off point for elective abortion - but the concept of giving it the exact same right to life as a born human is inhuman for the woman who is carrying it.

In Roche v Roche (2009), the Irish Supreme Court ruled that a frozen embryos outside the womb do not have a right to life.

Where do you stand on this?

QuoteAs I said it depends on the circumstance but some women suffering from post natal depression should not be held to account.
I have repeatedly stated that the mother's life comes first and has too, so that does mean that their life is "worth-less" if you want to frame it in those terms so I don't think I am in any crazy level of contradiction here. You will have to find someone who is.

If the mother's life has to come first, that in itself is a contradiction of the 8th Amendment.

The question I asked in the relevant paragraph you reply to here was: why do the No campaign differentiate between the punishment for murdering a (born) baby, and aborting an unborn?

Why is this? (well, in reality I know full well, it's purely for PR purposes because they know it not play well at all).

But it's illogical and betrays a lack of confidence in their own argument.

QuoteYes as I have said before I would be open to this but not one that removes the right altogether and certianly not introducing on demand terminations up to 12weeks
But legislating for abortion in cases of rape and incest removes the so called "human right" you talk about. So, if you are amenable to abortion in cases of rape or incest, it shows that your belief in "the right to life" for the unborn is malleable, ie. that it is not absolute. And if that right is not absolute, thus, it doesn't exist at all.

It also categorically requires the removal of the 8th Amendment.

QuoteLaws need to reflect realtiy eh? So remove speed limts as everyone breaks them then? now that is farcial
Let the Hutch and Kinihans tear away at each other cos thats reality???
The reality of the Kinahan-Hutch feud is that actual murders are taking place.

Speed limits are there to protect people's safety.

One of the main reasons the 8th Amendment needs to be abolished is that it puts women in danger by taking away their right to healthcare.

Proponents of keeping the 8th Amendment seem to be oblivious to this. I still haven't heard one reasonable attempt to deal with the fact that abortion is happening already in Ireland.

This is a question not just for you but for everybody planning to vote No: what do you plan to do about the thousands of women that are self-administering abortion in Ireland? The only inescapable conclusion I can come to is that they are the acceptable collateral damage of a failed constitutional provision.

QuoteIs sentience your only reason? I mean if you believed that the baby was sentient from 4 weeks would that be your cut off?
Also can I tell you something about sentience, Science knows nothing about it, literally nothing...and doesnt claim too... as it totally subjective. There are a few scientists who even believe that sentience is actually only all an illusion anyway. You don't know what another thing experiences, whether it be another person, an animal, bird, plant, rock... no one knows, now you have a fair idea about people because we can communicate with each other but we can't do that with a child until their 2nd year. The most likely scenario is that as long as a baby is in the womb it is never sentient in the way that we understand it until at least it is born and most likely for a long time after that. But sentience also raises another question about ending other forms of human life in general, is that ok if the victim is not sentient, if someone is in a coma, sleeping, gunshot to the head etc etc. Your at least vegetarian I presume as well.... but then are potatoes sentient? if sentience is your guide its about as wishwashy, unscientific, subjective unknown "thing" going.

I'd prefer to go with something more factual, for example what science does know for sure about an unborn person... and that it is a human from the moment of conception.
"Science knows nothing about it."

Really? Is this the best you have? Science and medicine knows a hell of a lot about it.

Your idea of the "right to life" of the unborn, taken to its logical conclusion, means we should keep desperately ill people with no prospect of survival alive artificially, indefinitely.

It also rules out abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormaility, such as the Savita case.

What is your view on the Alfie Evans case?

QuoteSince 90+% of terminations are not medical necessary and you have no issue of that 90+% them I am going to go with that is the main and over riding reason that you support terminations is because you believe the right to choose for a woman overrides the right to life of the unborn person.
It's actually nothing to do with the reason I support the abolition of the 8th Amendment because we're not voting on the proposed legislation.

If there was no proposed legislation in the pipeline and the choice was whether to go back to the pre-1983 position, I'd still support the abolition of the 8th Amendment for the same reasons I've given here re. women being denied both essential and basic healthcare - which is a breach of human rights.

But yes, probably the main thinking in my wish to see the proposed legislation passed is because I believe in a woman's right to choose. The concept of the right to choose is hugely backed up by the problems caused by the 8th Amendment as well as the unworkability and indeed potential cruelty of a law which legislates only for "exceptions" such as rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Indeed, but remember that many people on the No side:
i) Wanted to keep contraception banned
ii) Object to sex education which actually deals with the reality of the world we live in today
iii) Spend a lot of their time vilifying single mothers and state supports for them

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:30:41 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:50:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
The whinging on here started with you on the first page of the thread.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.


This was before any debate on here with regards to the whys and wherefores of why people had their positions. Your first post was to have a whinge at the no side before anyone on here really got into a debate on the subject. So spare me the "it's all coming from the no side" BS.
You are right the difference is down to that one point on when life begins. I would certainly struggle to accept aborting a 11 week old fetus, but understand that there can be circumstances where the alternative is equally harrowing. So it's hard to draw a line in the sand and say this is the point after which there is life and therefore should be protected. And that's been debated in this thread multiple times. And it's an interesting debate when you open yourself up to considering other peoples viewpoints.
You clearly don't understand what "whinging" is.

The fact is that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation and from the official No campaign and its constituent entities and it was obvious there was going to be before it started given that the No campaign had engaged Aggregate IQ. The No campaign was and is engaging in deceitful methods to gather details about undecided voters through fake "unbiased" Facebook pages.

There is no such parallel campaign on the Yes side.

So called "pro-life" groups, and particularly the American-based ones, have a long track record of propaganda and disinformation - far right groups in general have a long and storied history of such, and never more so than now.

One's attitude to the methods of the Brexit and Trump campaigns says a lot about one's attitude to democracy and whether one takes it seriously or not. This holds firm for this referendum campaign, as the same tactics being used by Brexit and Trump are again in use by the NO campaign. I mean, have you opened your eyes at all over the last few weeks?

Objecting to lies and disinformation is not whinging. It's correctly demanding that the campaign be fought on the issues. Democracy is not a joke.

Your rationale here appears to be that political campaigns should be allowed to get away with disinformation and dishonest trickery. But if anybody objects, they're "whingers" apparently. That is reasoning straight out of the school playground.


You have very much done that about the no side in this thread.

We were chatting about on this thread. No one on the thread had posted any disinformation. A debate hadn't even broken out, but instead of starting the debate you went after the other side rather than debating your own beliefs. Not all the information coming from the no side is disinformation yet you have consistently generalised against the no side in most of your posts.
Are you denying that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation coming from the No campaign?

Do you think this is relevant to the discussion?

Do you think it's correct to object to such a campaign?

If Donald Trump chants "lock her up", or says about a debate moderator "there was blood coming out of her eyes, there was blood coming out of wherever", is it whinging to object to such?

If the No campaign says that a nine week old foetus can yawn, which is a lie, is that disinformation? Is it correct to object to such?

Or is it "whinging"?

QuoteWhinging - complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.
I've seen a hell of a lot of that from No-supporting posters over the last couple of days.

Some of it is relevant yes. But is it the first thing you'd go for in a debate when everything that your complaining about hasn't been used or put forward on this board? Why did you think the best form of debating your position was to go straight out on the attack against the no side and using the actions of some of the no camp to tarnish the whole side? And you have done that repeatedly on this thread.
To me that form of debate just locks in peoples views and people get defensive. Syf is typical of this style of debating so that even when he's correct, the way he goes about it makes it counter productive.
So yes, what I refer to is relevant, and it's absolutely one of the first things I think of, it would be very foolish not to considering the way the Brexit and US election campaigns were conducted, where lies rode roughshod over facts.

It's been obvious from a long way out that the No campaign this time would be modelled on the Brexit and Trump campaigns. And the central plank of both those campaigns was to vilify their opponents.

We are truly through the looking glass when the reflex reaction of conservatives when confronted with facts is to claim they're being bullied. These are the same people who claim to be for free speech.

It seems they're anything but.

The attitude is: this is my view, I have a right to not be questioned about it.

Nobody who voluntarily enters a debate on a forum has a right not to be questioned about their views.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 01:30:41 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 12:50:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
The whinging on here started with you on the first page of the thread.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 01, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I think there is a clear majority in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment among all the public, but I expect the actual poll to be very close, perhaps as close as the divorce referendum in 1995.

The No side polled 37.93% in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum. It's hard to imagine anybody who voted No in that referendum voting Yes to repealing the 8th Amendment.

So, notwithstanding the small turnover in the electorate in that three year gap, the No side are effectively starting with almost 38%.

But there will be people who voted Yes in the 2015 referendum voting No this time.

Then, the Yes side have the age old problem of getting young people to actually come out and vote. That won't be a problem for the No side.

The potential for fake news and lies pushed by the No side to become the dominant narrative over the next three and a half weeks is very real. That's the only way they can win. Gavin Sheridan was on Twitter and on radio over the last couple of days detailing how the No side are putting up fake "unbiased" Facebook pages in order to gather data on undecided voters and microtarget.

The No campaign, like Brexit and Trump, are relying on underhand Cambridge Analytica-style methods to sway voters.


This was before any debate on here with regards to the whys and wherefores of why people had their positions. Your first post was to have a whinge at the no side before anyone on here really got into a debate on the subject. So spare me the "it's all coming from the no side" BS.
You are right the difference is down to that one point on when life begins. I would certainly struggle to accept aborting a 11 week old fetus, but understand that there can be circumstances where the alternative is equally harrowing. So it's hard to draw a line in the sand and say this is the point after which there is life and therefore should be protected. And that's been debated in this thread multiple times. And it's an interesting debate when you open yourself up to considering other peoples viewpoints.
You clearly don't understand what "whinging" is.

The fact is that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation and from the official No campaign and its constituent entities and it was obvious there was going to be before it started given that the No campaign had engaged Aggregate IQ. The No campaign was and is engaging in deceitful methods to gather details about undecided voters through fake "unbiased" Facebook pages.

There is no such parallel campaign on the Yes side.

So called "pro-life" groups, and particularly the American-based ones, have a long track record of propaganda and disinformation - far right groups in general have a long and storied history of such, and never more so than now.

One's attitude to the methods of the Brexit and Trump campaigns says a lot about one's attitude to democracy and whether one takes it seriously or not. This holds firm for this referendum campaign, as the same tactics being used by Brexit and Trump are again in use by the NO campaign. I mean, have you opened your eyes at all over the last few weeks?

Objecting to lies and disinformation is not whinging. It's correctly demanding that the campaign be fought on the issues. Democracy is not a joke.

Your rationale here appears to be that political campaigns should be allowed to get away with disinformation and dishonest trickery. But if anybody objects, they're "whingers" apparently. That is reasoning straight out of the school playground.


You have very much done that about the no side in this thread.

We were chatting about on this thread. No one on the thread had posted any disinformation. A debate hadn't even broken out, but instead of starting the debate you went after the other side rather than debating your own beliefs. Not all the information coming from the no side is disinformation yet you have consistently generalised against the no side in most of your posts.
Are you denying that there is a concerted campaign of disinformation coming from the No campaign?

Do you think this is relevant to the discussion?

Do you think it's correct to object to such a campaign?

If Donald Trump chants "lock her up", or says about a debate moderator "there was blood coming out of her eyes, there was blood coming out of wherever", is it whinging to object to such?

If the No campaign says that a nine week old foetus can yawn, which is a lie, is that disinformation? Is it correct to object to such?

Or is it "whinging"?

QuoteWhinging - complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.
I've seen a hell of a lot of that from No-supporting posters over the last couple of days.

Some of it is relevant yes. But is it the first thing you'd go for in a debate when everything that your complaining about hasn't been used or put forward on this board? Why did you think the best form of debating your position was to go straight out on the attack against the no side and using the actions of some of the no camp to tarnish the whole side? And you have done that repeatedly on this thread.
To me that form of debate just locks in peoples views and people get defensive. Syf is typical of this style of debating so that even when he's correct, the way he goes about it makes it counter productive.
So yes, what I refer to is relevant, and it's absolutely one of the first things I think of, it would be very foolish not to considering the way the Brexit and US election campaigns were conducted, where lies rode roughshod over facts.

It's been obvious from a long way out that the No campaign this time would be modelled on the Brexit and Trump campaigns. And the central plank of both those campaigns was to vilify their opponents.

We are truly through the looking glass when the reflex reaction of conservatives when confronted with facts is to claim they're being bullied. These are the same people who claim to be for free speech.

It seems they're anything but.

The attitude is: this is my view, I have a right to not be questioned about it.

Nobody who voluntarily enters a debate on a forum has a right not to be questioned about their views.
Absolutely, and there has been debate on this thread regarding it. Constructive debate at that. Debate about when life begins which is at the crux of the issue. I don't see anyone claiming that their view shouldn't be questioned? Maybe i missed it?
The other side is that when you generalise about the entire or even most of the no side, you've a right to be pulled on it too. The people behind the public no campaign aren't the majority, they're just the most vocal. So you need to separate them from the mass no support. You could be part of the no camp and not agree with how they are campaigning.   
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 03:42:47 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 03:13:04 PM

Absolutely, and there has been debate on this thread regarding it. Constructive debate at that. Debate about when life begins which is at the crux of the issue. I don't see anyone claiming that their view shouldn't be questioned? Maybe i missed it?
The other side is that when you generalise about the entire or even most of the no side, you've a right to be pulled on it too. The people behind the public no campaign aren't the majority, they're just the most vocal. So you need to separate them from the mass no support. You could be part of the no camp and not agree with how they are campaigning.   
That's the distinct impression I'm getting from a lot of No supporting posters.

The No campaign has been a disgrace, frankly, while the Yes campaign has enagaged on the facts and been respectful.

That's actually the problem. Lies make people sit up and take notice much more than facts and they tend to dictate the agenda.

The Yes side needs to be more confrontational because the No side is clearly not capable of giving satisfactory answers on a host of questions. They are the ones who should be on the backfoot.

Simple, core, true narratives are available to Yes side but they are not using them. "Yes for Compassion" is a useless slogan. It's the Irish equivalent of "I'm With Her".

What I see from most of the No side in general, both the official campaign and in its online support, is a willingness to stop at nothing to spread lies.

And I see plenty of our old alt-right friend, false equivalence, being trotted out in relation to this.

Ultimately No voters have to be aware what they are voting for - which is a continuation of the situations where women are denied both essential and basic healthcare, where rape and incest victims are forced to carry a pregancy to term against their will, where women who have pregnancies involving fatal foetal abnormalities are abandoned, and where women who have abortions inside this state are abandoned.

Women being condemned to a position of second class citizenship, in other words.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 04:04:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 03:42:47 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 11, 2018, 03:13:04 PM

Absolutely, and there has been debate on this thread regarding it. Constructive debate at that. Debate about when life begins which is at the crux of the issue. I don't see anyone claiming that their view shouldn't be questioned? Maybe i missed it?
The other side is that when you generalise about the entire or even most of the no side, you've a right to be pulled on it too. The people behind the public no campaign aren't the majority, they're just the most vocal. So you need to separate them from the mass no support. You could be part of the no camp and not agree with how they are campaigning.   
That's the distinct impression I'm getting from a lot of No supporting posters.

The No campaign has been a disgrace, frankly, while the Yes campaign has enagaged on the facts and been respectful.

That's actually the problem. Lies make people sit up and take notice much more than facts and they tend to dictate the agenda.

The Yes side needs to be more confrontational because the No side is clearly not capable of giving satisfactory answers on a host of questions. They are the ones who should be on the backfoot.

Simple, core, true narratives are available to Yes side but they are not using them. "Yes for Compassion" is a useless slogan. It's the Irish equivalent of "I'm With Her".

What I see from most of the No side in general, both the official campaign and in its online support, is a willingness to stop at nothing to spread lies.

And I see plenty of our old alt-right friend, false equivalence, being trotted out in relation to this.

Ultimately No voters have to be aware what they are voting for - which is a continuation of the situations where women are denied both essential and basic healthcare, where rape and incest victims are forced to carry a pregancy to term against their will, where women who have pregnancies involving fatal foetal abnormalities are abandoned, and where women who have abortions inside this state are abandoned.

Women being condemned to a position of second class citizenship, in other words.

Well we see different things so we'll park it there.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 05:02:41 PM
Should win over any undecideds:

Quotehttp://www.thejournal.ie/bishop-abortion-far-worse-rape-4006848-May2018/

A BISHOP HAS claimed that having an abortion after being raped is sometimes far worse than the rape itself during a radio interview about whether to legalise abortion.

He also suggested that in cases of fatal foetal abnormality and cases of incest, women should carry their pregnancies to full term because "the life of the child is paramount".

In an interview with Newstalk's Pat Kenny Show, the Bishop of Ossory Dr Dermot Farrell was asked what should be done in cases of rape if the Eighth Amendment isn't repealed.

He said that "rape is a violent act" and "a violent crime against a woman", and added:

"What I understand from women who have been raped is that the abortion that followed sometimes after rape was far worse than the rape itself."



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 05:12:54 PM
"Both sides are equally bad".   ;D

QuoteDDoS attack hits Eighth Amendment referendum crowdfunding website

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/referendum-ddos-attack-ireland

https://www.rte.ie/news/eighth-amendment/2018/0510/962545-together-for-yes-campaign/

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 11, 2018, 06:06:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Indeed, but remember that many people on the No side:
i) Wanted to keep contraception banned
ii) Object to sex education which actually deals with the reality of the world we live in today
iii) Spend a lot of their time vilifying single mothers and state supports for them

"many" is easy to say, if there are over a million people involved then some will have almost any wierd view available. However, most people believe that not creating a pregnancy is a responsible thing, creating one and then ending it less so. As for single mothers, "many" on the yes side believe they should abort their children and not live off the rest of the population.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trileacman on May 11, 2018, 11:38:00 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 10, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 10, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
... I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.

Quote from: trileacman on May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
You'd find few people who would say that a rape victim shouldn't have access to a morning after pill or abortion. Likewise I'd be in favour of termination for people who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. If the prorposed legislation addressed those issues without allowing for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks then it would enjoy a lot more support.

Like most reasonable people, I respect the convictions of all who have considered the issues and come to a decision. I must say, though, that I have never understood this contention and cannot see how it doesn't destroy the argument of those whose opposition to abortion at any stage is based on the right to life from conception.

If a zygote or foetus has an unquestioned right to life (and I'm not, in this post, addressing that point one way or the other), how is that right so easily withdrawn based on its parentage and how can someone who believes this propose abortion in the case of rape?

A good observation Hardy but I think you're prejudicing against the rationale of swaths of potential No voters. You'd be hard pressed not to have compassion for victims of rape or those who carry babies with fatal foetal abnormalities, which I have indirectly a very small amount of experience of in one particular case. Aborting what is in essence a cluster of cells at ~4 weeks because of rape can be rationalised as just, in the thankfully seldom occasions in which it occurs.

The problem is when the argument of rape is mobilised as a trojan horse in which to augment support for more wide-ranging abortion laws as if to draw equivalence between the traumatic experience of rape and cases where the pregnancy is an more an inconvenience. Perhaps I'm different from other people but I'm uncomfortable with the casual elimination of a developing life because it's come at an inconvenient time or isn't just happening the way you wanted to. I think there is a detachment involved in that viewpoint and requires a certain level of dehumanisation.

Could yes voters find solace in a society where a baby (up to 12 weeks and potentially more in future) can be aborted for any reason at all, no matter how trivial? If a person chooses to abort their child because it's the wrong sex or because they don't want to be having a baby at Christmas or maybe they just forgot to use contraception on a one-night stand, is aborting a child for those reasons, or something similar, morally acceptable to Yes voters? I'm uneasy about the diminishing of a growing person into a commodity or accessory, something that can be dispensed of so easily and who's existence can be so inconsequentially disregarded.

If, in some peoples eyes, this makes me a chauvinist, a religious zealot, an alt-right fascist or a "whinger" then it's a label I'll comfortably bear. Personal convictions are more inclined to be reinforced when challenged by personal abuse and derision. That's not a statement I direct at you Hardy, you've broached the subject with due respect.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 12, 2018, 01:25:00 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 11, 2018, 06:06:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Indeed, but remember that many people on the No side:
i) Wanted to keep contraception banned
ii) Object to sex education which actually deals with the reality of the world we live in today
iii) Spend a lot of their time vilifying single mothers and state supports for them

"many" is easy to say, if there are over a million people involved then some will have almost any wierd view available. However, most people believe that not creating a pregnancy is a responsible thing, creating one and then ending it less so. As for single mothers, "many" on the yes side believe they should abort their children and not live off the rest of the population.

Its the oldest trick in the book....find the most offensive views held by the fringes of opposing side, then paint everyone who disagrees with you as holding the same views, thereby discrediting all dissenting opinions
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 12, 2018, 01:39:38 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2018, 01:25:00 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 11, 2018, 06:06:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Indeed, but remember that many people on the No side:
i) Wanted to keep contraception banned
ii) Object to sex education which actually deals with the reality of the world we live in today
iii) Spend a lot of their time vilifying single mothers and state supports for them

"many" is easy to say, if there are over a million people involved then some will have almost any wierd view available. However, most people believe that not creating a pregnancy is a responsible thing, creating one and then ending it less so. As for single mothers, "many" on the yes side believe they should abort their children and not live off the rest of the population.

Its the oldest trick in the book....find the most offensive views held by the fringes of opposing side, then paint everyone who disagrees with you as holding the same views, thereby discrediting all dissenting opinions

..err, you do know you're describing exactly what you yourself have done multiple times in this thread and probably thousands of times in the US thread, right?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 12, 2018, 01:48:24 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Indeed, but remember that many people on the No side:
i) Wanted to keep contraception banned
ii) Object to sex education which actually deals with the reality of the world we live in today
iii) Spend a lot of their time vilifying single mothers and state supports for them

Sid, you're never going to change the minds of those people. However, by tarring everyone who considers voting no with the same brush, you lose any chance you had of convincing the soft no's and undecideds to vote yes.

In another post you've compared the No campaign to trump/Brexit campaigns and yet you're reacting in the same manner as the Clinton / anti-brexit campaigns, a different approach might be more effective.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 12, 2018, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 12, 2018, 01:39:38 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2018, 01:25:00 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 11, 2018, 06:06:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Indeed, but remember that many people on the No side:
i) Wanted to keep contraception banned
ii) Object to sex education which actually deals with the reality of the world we live in today
iii) Spend a lot of their time vilifying single mothers and state supports for them

"many" is easy to say, if there are over a million people involved then some will have almost any wierd view available. However, most people believe that not creating a pregnancy is a responsible thing, creating one and then ending it less so. As for single mothers, "many" on the yes side believe they should abort their children and not live off the rest of the population.

Its the oldest trick in the book....find the most offensive views held by the fringes of opposing side, then paint everyone who disagrees with you as holding the same views, thereby discrediting all dissenting opinions

..err, you do know you're describing exactly what you yourself have done multiple times in this thread and probably thousands of times in the US thread, right?

That is a false statement.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 12, 2018, 02:41:50 AM
There's a direct lineage from every regressive campaign going back to at least the 1970s to the current No campaign.

That lineage encompasses opposition to contraception, the 1983 8th Amendment referendum, the 1986 and 1995 divorce referendums, the 1992 abortion referendums on the right to travel for an abortion and the right to information, opposition to the decriminalisation of homosexuality, the 2002 referendum which attempted to eliminate the right of a suicidal woman to an abortion established in the X Case, opposition to the introduction of same sex civil partnerships, opposition to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act in 2013 and the same sex marriage referendum in 2015.

The same faces pop up again and again and again leading these campaigns and they've lied copiously and been wrong every single time.

The old guard of Una Bean Mhic Mhathuna, Alice Glenn, William Binchy, Des Hanafin, then the likes of Patricia Casey, John Waters and the vile Youth Defence mob of Niamh Nic Mhathuna and Justin Barrett, and in the last decade or so David Quinn and the IONA "Institute", Ronan Mullen, and Declan Ganley.

All highly reactionary ultra-conservative Roman Catholics. If they had their way, women would still have to organise contraceptive trains.

None of these people gave or give a flying fook about the immense harm they cause/d to Irish people. And they're still trying.

None of them have or had anything to offer Irish people except fear, embarrassment, shame and misery.

The day they are finally routed once and for all cannot come quick enough.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 12, 2018, 03:19:25 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 12, 2018, 01:48:24 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 11, 2018, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 11, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
I don't think the blaming of the other side serves any purpose. After this is over we need to unite and support women and children in a caring and compassionate society and the blame game will make that more difficult. Even if it's a yes vote, we all need to strive for a society where there's a reduction in the number of reasons a woman might consider an abortion. In my mind, that the ONLY way that we all win. Idealistic I know but I think everyone's feet need to be held to the fire on how much they really care.
Indeed, but remember that many people on the No side:
i) Wanted to keep contraception banned
ii) Object to sex education which actually deals with the reality of the world we live in today
iii) Spend a lot of their time vilifying single mothers and state supports for them

Sid, you're never going to change the minds of those people. However, by tarring everyone who considers voting no with the same brush, you lose any chance you had of convincing the soft no's and undecideds to vote yes.

In another post you've compared the No campaign to trump/Brexit campaigns and yet you're reacting in the same manner as the Clinton / anti-brexit campaigns, a different approach might be more effective.

I don't agree with some of Sid's characterisations but there's a big misconception here that people are genuinely open to being proven wrong on anything, or that people are trying to win over others.

People just keep shouting the same preconceived notions over and over again - that's why I stopped trying to convince anyone of anything on this site a long time ago. I think AZ is one of the only posters in this thread that even attempted to process the other side's arguments fully. A thread with probably dozens of posters. Not a great hit rate, is it?

For a lot of the people the topic may change but the same petty personal bickering doesn't, the topic then becomes simply the current set dressing to a running battle rather than anything even important. It's just a venue to play out the same old shït yet again.

If you go into it with the expectation that you're going to be able change opinions you're only going to wind yourself up. The only healthy way to treat this sort of forum is as a place to say your piece and move on.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.

No, he said that was the case for some women he had met, are you calling these women liars?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: RedHand88 on May 13, 2018, 01:57:55 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.

I'm not religious and don't need the Catholic Church to tell me that abortion is morally wrong.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 02:50:14 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 13, 2018, 01:57:55 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.

I'm not religious and don't need the Catholic Church to tell me that abortion is morally wrong.

..and yet it's not. I wonder would these big words be said to a woman who has had an abortion, or if the strength of your convictions only exsist in the abstract?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 08:03:44 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.

No, he said that was the case for some women he had met, are you calling these women liars?

I would imagine that he's not, but is instead calling Monsignor Farrell a liar.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 13, 2018, 08:26:14 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.
I wouldn't pay any need to what a bishop says
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 13, 2018, 10:26:18 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/knocking-on-doors-in-hostile-territories-what-its-like-to-canvass-for-the-referendum-when-local-voting-trends-are-against-you-36894899.html

Was reading the above with interest and good to hear that face to face the debate is being had and the Twitter bile is not being repeated. I also read with interest no FF or FG canvassing going on. Doesn't that tell you all you need to know about those spineless cowards, intent to sit in the fence and see how the wind blows. No solid conviction on this hugely important issue. I don't know how anyone could vote for people like that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2018, 10:33:13 AM
1- because the one issue no and yes campaigners won't be standing for election
2-kutehoorism.

I see it's 50/50 now leaving out the undecideds.
Syf and Sid doing a great job!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Tubberman on May 13, 2018, 10:46:27 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 13, 2018, 01:57:55 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.

I'm not religious and don't need the Catholic Church to tell me that abortion is morally wrong.

+1
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 10:50:25 AM
There is absolutely nothing immoral or wrong about allowing a woman autonomy over her own body.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 08:03:44 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.

No, he said that was the case for some women he had met, are you calling these women liars?

I would imagine that he's not, but is instead calling Monsignor Farrell a liar.

Monsignor Farrell is clearly a liar.

At the same time though, it would be perfectly logical that a Roman Catholic bishop would believe that a rape victim having an abortion is worse for the victim than the actual rape itself - in all cases.

To be a believing Roman Catholic, you have to believe such.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Tubberman on May 13, 2018, 10:58:49 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 10:50:25 AM
There is absolutely nothing immoral or wrong about allowing a woman autonomy over her own body.

Agreed
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 11:01:25 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 10:50:25 AM
There is absolutely nothing immoral or wrong about allowing a woman autonomy over her own body.
100%. It's actually the genuinely moral position.

Also, countries in which abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher rate of abortion than countries in which there is access to safe, legal abortion.

But sure ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 13, 2018, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 10:50:25 AM
There is absolutely nothing immoral or wrong about allowing a woman autonomy over her own body.

You (and others on the Yes side) view it as just HER body.......many others (on the No side) view it as TWO separate people.




Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 11:16:35 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 13, 2018, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 13, 2018, 10:50:25 AM
There is absolutely nothing immoral or wrong about allowing a woman autonomy over her own body.

You (and others on the Yes side) view it as just HER body.......many others (on the No side) view it as TWO separate people.

I'm quite familiar with the argument.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 13, 2018, 12:44:51 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
Monsignor Dermot Farrell, Bishop of Ossory, says abortion after rape was far worse than rape for women who experienced both. The ignorance, arrogance and cruel attitude of some church leaders towards women is staggering and will drive thousands more people to vote YES.

No, he said that was the case for some women he had met, are you calling these women liars?

I don't believe him. It is v cynical of him - is actually sick.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 13, 2018, 12:47:15 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 11, 2018, 11:38:00 PM
The problem is when the argument of rape is mobilised as a trojan horse in which to augment support for more wide-ranging abortion laws as if to draw equivalence between the traumatic experience of rape and cases where the pregnancy is an more an inconvenience. Perhaps I'm different from other people but I'm uncomfortable with the casual elimination of a developing life because it's come at an inconvenient time or isn't just happening the way you wanted to. I think there is a detachment involved in that viewpoint and requires a certain level of dehumanisation.

Could yes voters find solace in a society where a baby (up to 12 weeks and potentially more in future) can be aborted for any reason at all, no matter how trivial? If a person chooses to abort their child because it's the wrong sex or because they don't want to be having a baby at Christmas or maybe they just forgot to use contraception on a one-night stand, is aborting a child for those reasons, or something similar, morally acceptable to Yes voters? I'm uneasy about the diminishing of a growing person into a commodity or accessory, something that can be dispensed of so easily and who's existence can be so inconsequentially disregarded.

If, in some peoples eyes, this makes me a chauvinist, a religious zealot, an alt-right fascist or a "whinger" then it's a label I'll comfortably bear. Personal convictions are more inclined to be reinforced when challenged by personal abuse and derision.

The above is an excellent contribution from trileacman in my opinion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 01:10:44 PM
Rape is not a trojan horse for anything.

Ultimately there is only one argument for keeping the 8th Amendment.

That is that you believe a one hour old zygote should be exactly equal in status and rights to the fully grown woman carrying it and that this right should be imposed on every pregancy across the board. And in practice it gives the zygote (and the embryo and foetus it later develps into) greater rights than the woman.

That is not a fact based argument - it is an absolutist, dogmatic moral argument that few people agree with.

It is an argument that even fewer people can sustain with a straight face when questioned.

By necessity such an argument involves the belief that it is thus acceptable to impose all sorts of horrible things on women - denial of access to cancer treatment, forcing rape and incest victims to carry a pregnancy against their will, forcing women for whom a pregnancy is a serious risk to their health to carry that pregnancy to term, threat of imprisonment of women, and abandonment of women who have abortions inside this state.

A No vote is a statement that all of those things are acceptable.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 13, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 13, 2018, 10:26:18 AM
I also read with interest no FF or FG canvassing going on. Doesn't that tell you all you need to know about those spineless cowards, intent to sit in the fence and see how the wind blows. No solid conviction on this hugely important issue. I don't know how anyone could vote for people like that.

I disagree. I realize there are very emotive and embittered arguments going on here, but one thing I think we can agree on is that there are two contrasting sides of firmly held beliefs. Surely in that instance, this should be a matter of conscience for each individual and should therefore be apolitical. The stance of FF and FG is in contrast to Sinn Fein who discipline party members who vote against the party's support for legislation that liberalises abortion. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 01:21:57 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 13, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 13, 2018, 10:26:18 AM
I also read with interest no FF or FG canvassing going on. Doesn't that tell you all you need to know about those spineless cowards, intent to sit in the fence and see how the wind blows. No solid conviction on this hugely important issue. I don't know how anyone could vote for people like that.

I disagree. I realize there are very emotive and embittered arguments going on here, but one thing I think we can agree on is that there are two contrasting sides of firmly held beliefs. Surely in that instance, this should be a matter of conscience for each individual and should therefore be apolitical. The stance of FF and FG is in contrast to Sinn Fein who discipline party members who vote against the party's support for legislation that liberalises abortion.

One is a firmly held belief that each individual should be allowed to exercise their firmly held belief.

The other is a firmly held belief that the firmly held belief of some should be imposed on everybody else.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dougal Maguire on May 13, 2018, 01:23:20 PM
You've hit the nail on the head there Rufus. There are a lot of pro life people within SF who have real difficulties with the Party stance. To discipline them for having these views, which are matters of individual conscience is very wrong
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
If somebody truly believes "keeping the 8th Amendment" is about "saving lives", the logical follow up to that is that they must believe that the 13th Amendment should be overturned.

Anything else would be highly illogical and would contradict the stated aim of "saving lives".

The 13th Amendment specifically grants the right to travel in order to have an abortion.

By overturning the 13th Amendment, women would no longer have the right to travel outside Ireland to obtain an abortion.

How can one claim to want to keep the 8th Amendment to "save lives" and yet think that the 13th Amendment is acceptable?

Because the 13th Amendment specifically grants Irish citizens the right to travel to have an abortion, ie. it enshrines the right of Irish citizens to have an abortion, full stop.

Do those Irish "unborn babies" now simply not matter because their lives are taken outside the state?

If you're a No voter and favour keeping the 13th Amendment, your problem is not with abortion at all - it's with the location of abortion.

Which isn't an anti-abortion or "pro-life" position at all.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
If somebody truly believes "keeping the 8th Amendment" is about "saving lives", the logical follow up to that is that they must believe that the 13th Amendment should be overturned.

Anything else would be highly illogical and would contradict the stated aim of "saving lives".

The 13th Amendment specifically grants the right to travel in order to have an abortion.

By overturning the 13th Amendment, women would no longer have the right to travel outside Ireland to obtain an abortion.

How can one claim to want to keep the 8th Amendment to "save lives" and yet think that the 13th Amendment is acceptable?

Because the 13th Amendment specifically grants Irish citizens the right to travel to have an abortion, ie. it enshrines the right of Irish citizens to have an abortion, full stop.

Do those Irish "unborn babies" now simply not matter because their lives are taken outside the state?

If you're a No voter and favour keeping the 13th Amendment, your problem is not with abortion at all - it's with the location of abortion.

Which isn't an anti-abortion or "pro-life" position at all.

This is a good example of the bollix logic associated with this matter. There are things you can do abroad that you cannot do here, it is not the business of government to restrict people with fast cars from driving them to Germany to do 200kmh on the autobahn.
The whole point of independence is that you can have different laws than other places, yet you have the SF  advocating that laws be cannot be different than England.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 06:35:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
If somebody truly believes "keeping the 8th Amendment" is about "saving lives", the logical follow up to that is that they must believe that the 13th Amendment should be overturned.

Anything else would be highly illogical and would contradict the stated aim of "saving lives".

The 13th Amendment specifically grants the right to travel in order to have an abortion.

By overturning the 13th Amendment, women would no longer have the right to travel outside Ireland to obtain an abortion.

How can one claim to want to keep the 8th Amendment to "save lives" and yet think that the 13th Amendment is acceptable?

Because the 13th Amendment specifically grants Irish citizens the right to travel to have an abortion, ie. it enshrines the right of Irish citizens to have an abortion, full stop.

Do those Irish "unborn babies" now simply not matter because their lives are taken outside the state?

If you're a No voter and favour keeping the 13th Amendment, your problem is not with abortion at all - it's with the location of abortion.

Which isn't an anti-abortion or "pro-life" position at all.

This is a good example of the bollix logic associated with this matter. There are things you can do abroad that you cannot do here, it is not the business of government to restrict people with fast cars from driving them to Germany to do 200kmh on the autobahn.
The whole point of independence is that you can have different laws than other places, yet you have the SF  advocating that laws be cannot be different than England.

You literally compared basic healthcare to driving a fast car. Wooooow.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 08:53:40 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 13, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
If somebody truly believes "keeping the 8th Amendment" is about "saving lives", the logical follow up to that is that they must believe that the 13th Amendment should be overturned.

Anything else would be highly illogical and would contradict the stated aim of "saving lives".

The 13th Amendment specifically grants the right to travel in order to have an abortion.

By overturning the 13th Amendment, women would no longer have the right to travel outside Ireland to obtain an abortion.

How can one claim to want to keep the 8th Amendment to "save lives" and yet think that the 13th Amendment is acceptable?

Because the 13th Amendment specifically grants Irish citizens the right to travel to have an abortion, ie. it enshrines the right of Irish citizens to have an abortion, full stop.

Do those Irish "unborn babies" now simply not matter because their lives are taken outside the state?

If you're a No voter and favour keeping the 13th Amendment, your problem is not with abortion at all - it's with the location of abortion.

Which isn't an anti-abortion or "pro-life" position at all.

This is a good example of the bollix logic associated with this matter. There are things you can do abroad that you cannot do here, it is not the business of government to restrict people with fast cars from driving them to Germany to do 200kmh on the autobahn.
The whole point of independence is that you can have different laws than other places, yet you have the SF  advocating that laws be cannot be different than England.
It was the 8th Amendment itself which originally introduced the ban on travel for abortion.

From your postings, it's obvious that you consider abortion to be murder.

Which is why it's now so surprising and bizarre that you're comparing it to breaking the speed limit in another country.

You haven't actually addressed the point at all here, by the way.

The point is, if one claims to want to keep the 8th Amendment to "save lives", it's totally illogical to be in favour of keeping the 13th Amendment, which allows the right to travel to "take a life", as "pro-lifers" would see it - especially as this actually was the pre-1992 position in this country, so theoretically, it is a position it can return to if there is enough support for it.

That the pre-1992 position on travel was unworkable is neither here nor there - the 8th Amendment itself is unworkable and is being ignored by thousands of Irish women having abortions inside this state, and yet you and others still favour keeping it.

If you support one farcical and unworkable constitutional provision, sure you might as well follow that logic to its natural conclusion and support the re-imposition of a second unworkable one, which would at least make your position consistent, if no less farcical.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 13, 2018, 10:01:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

wtf!  :o
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 13, 2018, 10:23:31 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

+1
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 10:13:58 AM
You get the feeling a lot of posters here would like this state to be like a real life version of The Handmaid's Tale.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:29:42 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 06:35:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 02:05:10 PM
This is a good example of the bollix logic associated with this matter. There are things you can do abroad that you cannot do here, it is not the business of government to restrict people with fast cars from driving them to Germany to do 200kmh on the autobahn.
The whole point of independence is that you can have different laws than other places, yet you have the SF  advocating that laws be cannot be different than England.

You literally compared basic healthcare to driving a fast car. Wooooow.
You compared basic healthcare to abortion. Wooooow.
Basic healthcare, having an ingrown toenail removed, getting the wax in your ears removed, having a 10 inch long baby with all its organs fully formed hoovered out.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 14, 2018, 11:36:37 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:29:42 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 06:35:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 02:05:10 PM
This is a good example of the bollix logic associated with this matter. There are things you can do abroad that you cannot do here, it is not the business of government to restrict people with fast cars from driving them to Germany to do 200kmh on the autobahn.
The whole point of independence is that you can have different laws than other places, yet you have the SF  advocating that laws be cannot be different than England.

You literally compared basic healthcare to driving a fast car. Wooooow.
You compared basic healthcare to abortion. Wooooow.
Basic healthcare, having an ingrown toenail removed, getting the wax in your ears removed, having a 10 inch long baby with all its organs fully formed hoovered out.

FFS does that mean by full term the baby is aprox 3 foot long?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 11:47:33 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

My point was ignored. Nobody on the No side has dealt with it.

In response the poster armaghniac made a "point" that makes mere stupidity seem positively intellectual.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 14, 2018, 11:56:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 11:47:33 AM
My point was ignored. Nobody on the No side has dealt with it.

I dealt with it

QuoteIn response the poster armaghniac made a "point" that makes mere stupidity seem positively intellectual.

Once again, you can refute my point if you wish. Calling me stupid is not a refutation.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:05:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 14, 2018, 11:56:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 11:47:33 AM
My point was ignored. Nobody on the No side has dealt with it.

I dealt with it

QuoteIn response the poster armaghniac made a "point" that makes mere stupidity seem positively intellectual.

Once again, you can refute my point if you wish. Calling me stupid is not a refutation.
You didn't.

Calling my post "ballix" is not a refutation - that's what you did.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
Pretty much the entirety of the No side.

Delicate snowflakes that they are.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
The Syferus fella.
Mock outrage at a very valid point.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:54:50 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
The Syferus fella.
Mock outrage at a very valid point.
Syferus can speak for himself - I'm just laughing at the pig ignorant stupidity and inability to debate from the No side.

Keep it up, as somebody likes to say.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:08:27 PM

Personally I'm all for free speech - that's why I support publicising the not at all insane comments of John Waters.  ;D

Hot on the heels of the comments of Councillor Des Guckian that if the 8th Amendment is abolished "it will lead to sex slavery" and that "Hitler would be very happy", and the comments of the Bishop of Ossory that a rape victim having an abortion is worse for her than the rape itself, such reasonable opinion should do a great deal to win over the undecideds.

Keep it up, please, No campaigners.

QuoteComparisons between abortion and Holocaust spark walkouts during Limerick mass
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/john-waters-abortion-holocaust

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/310605/appalling-holocaust-comments-at-limerick-mass-as-speech-prompts-several-to-walk-out.html

QuoteChurchgoers in Limerick were moved to walk out of Mass this weekend following comments from controversial Irish journalist John Waters which allegedly drew parallels between the repeal of the constitutional ban on abortion in Ireland and the Holocaust. 

Waters, a pro-life campaigner, had been invited to speak at three services at Our Lady of the Rosary Church, Ennis Road, by parish priest Fr Des McAuliffe but some parishioners were so appalled by his comments, they walked out.

"He drew parallels between repealing the eighth amendment and Nazism – referring to Auschwitz and the Holocaust. That was the most frightening part," one parishioner told the Limerick Leader.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:54:50 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
The Syferus fella.
Mock outrage at a very valid point.
Syferus can speak for himself - I'm just laughing at the pig ignorant stupidity and inability to debate from the No side.

Keep it up, as somebody likes to say.

EH.....Im in favor of a Yes vote!

I voted Yes in the poll and have said at least half a dozen times on here that Im in favor of a Yes vote.

The issue I see with many of the Yes supporters is that unless everyone wholeheartedly agrees with every single nuance of their various arguments, they get painted as something theyre not.

It is a schoolyard bully tactic to shut down debate and silence any dissenting opinions (even of those who agree with them in principle but maybe not on every detail)

This is exactly what happened with Brexit and Trump and we know how those votes both turned out
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:54:50 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
The Syferus fella.
Mock outrage at a very valid point.
Syferus can speak for himself - I'm just laughing at the pig ignorant stupidity and inability to debate from the No side.

Keep it up, as somebody likes to say.

EH.....Im in favor of a Yes vote!

I voted Yes in the poll and have said at least half a dozen times on here that Im in favor of a Yes vote.

The issue I see with many of the Yes supporters is that unless everyone wholeheartedly agrees with every single nuance of their various arguments, they get painted as something theyre not.

It is a schoolyard bully tactic to shut down debate and silence any dissenting opinions (even of those who agree with them in principle but maybe not on every detail)

This is exactly what happened with Brexit and Trump and we know how those votes both turned out

Lolzers.

You are quite the snowflake.

I absolutely welcome different opinions, and if people want to throw out personal abuse, as the no side have been only too happy to do, I'm fine with that.

It just seems strange that there have been so few coherent opinions on the No side, and so few No supporting-posters who are willing to answer hard questions.

Very strange.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 01:29:25 PM
I've talked to dozens of people who are going to vote No, but are keeping their intentions private.
This is mainly because of how aggressive the Yes camp are to people who disagree with them.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:41:52 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 01:29:25 PM
I've talked to dozens of people who are going to vote No, but are keeping their intentions private.
This is mainly because of how aggressive the Yes camp are to people who disagree with them.
You should probably get out more.

The No side are anything but silent. And they're not a majority.

The bullying that has gone on during this campaign from the No side has been an absolute disgrace.

Religious fundamentalists standing outside maternity hospitals in intimidating women by thrusting giant pictures of dead foetuses in their faces, widespread ripping down of Yes posters, widespread comparisons to Nazis (who incidentally, elements of the No campaign actually have links to - Justin Barrett is a regular attendee at neo-Nazi events in Germany).

One can only imagine the reaction of the No side had Yes campaigners used giant pictures of dead women.

So I think we can agree that there's no equivalence here whatsoever. The behaviour of the No campaign has been an utter disgrace.

When they have such little argument, gutter politics is the only thing left for them.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:43:48 PM
Here's an another nice, reasonable view from Enda Sherlock, brother of leading No campaigner Cora Sherlock.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcWZB3-X4AMfXsn.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Billys Boots on May 14, 2018, 01:44:12 PM
I've talked to dozens of people who are going to vote Yes, but are keeping their intentions private.
This is mainly because of how aggressive the No camp are to people who disagree with them.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
And here's another very reasonable view from Enda Sherlock.

Don't recall Cora saying anything in objection to it...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPeiHZrX0AAmEtX.jpg)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 14, 2018, 01:47:44 PM
Is that a troll account?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:54:50 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
The Syferus fella.
Mock outrage at a very valid point.
Syferus can speak for himself - I'm just laughing at the pig ignorant stupidity and inability to debate from the No side.

Keep it up, as somebody likes to say.

EH.....Im in favor of a Yes vote!

I voted Yes in the poll and have said at least half a dozen times on here that Im in favor of a Yes vote.

The issue I see with many of the Yes supporters is that unless everyone wholeheartedly agrees with every single nuance of their various arguments, they get painted as something theyre not.

It is a schoolyard bully tactic to shut down debate and silence any dissenting opinions (even of those who agree with them in principle but maybe not on every detail)

This is exactly what happened with Brexit and Trump and we know how those votes both turned out

Lolzers.

You are quite the snowflake.

I absolutely welcome different opinions, and if people want to throw out personal abuse, as the no side have been only too happy to do, I'm fine with that.

It just seems strange that there have been so few coherent opinions on the No side, and so few No supporting-posters who are willing to answer hard questions.

Very strange.

Believe whatever you want......this could be a lot closer than people think
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 14, 2018, 01:50:22 PM
Don't know what your problem is, Sid. Sure to half the lads on here, there wouldn't be anything racist or homophobic about that post at all.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:50:37 PM
This article by Diarmuid Ferriter should be compulsory reading.

The Pro Life Campaign's definition of love is cruel
Diarmaid Ferriter: It is a strange kind of love that denies a teenage rape victim an abortion

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-pro-life-campaign-s-definition-of-love-is-cruel-1.3468389
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:51:45 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 14, 2018, 01:50:22 PM
Don't know what your problem is, Sid. Sure to half the lads on here, there wouldn't be anything racist or homophobic about that post at all.
Apparently those views are very "mainstream" now in the age of the hipster fascist.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 14, 2018, 02:45:46 PM
Isn't it irony those who vote for abortion have already been born.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 14, 2018, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 14, 2018, 02:45:46 PM
Isn't it irony those who vote for abortion have already been born.

No. Not at all.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 14, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:54:50 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
The Syferus fella.
Mock outrage at a very valid point.
Syferus can speak for himself - I'm just laughing at the pig ignorant stupidity and inability to debate from the No side.

Keep it up, as somebody likes to say.

EH.....Im in favor of a Yes vote!

I voted Yes in the poll and have said at least half a dozen times on here that Im in favor of a Yes vote.

The issue I see with many of the Yes supporters is that unless everyone wholeheartedly agrees with every single nuance of their various arguments, they get painted as something theyre not.

It is a schoolyard bully tactic to shut down debate and silence any dissenting opinions (even of those who agree with them in principle but maybe not on every detail)

This is exactly what happened with Brexit and Trump and we know how those votes both turned out

Lolzers.

You are quite the snowflake.

I absolutely welcome different opinions, and if people want to throw out personal abuse, as the no side have been only too happy to do, I'm fine with that.

It just seems strange that there have been so few coherent opinions on the No side, and so few No supporting-posters who are willing to answer hard questions.

Very strange.

So it's a laughing matter now?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 14, 2018, 03:41:52 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 14, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 12:54:50 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM
Thousands of people travel to Las Vegas to gamble, that is not necessarily a justification for introducing similar gambling in Ireland.

You do realise how scummy these comparisons are, right? Are you just trying to offend at this stage?

I am making the point that laws do not have to be the same as in other places.  If you feel my comparison is not valid then you can argue your case, you obviously feel you cannot when you resort to abuse.

You're not making any point whatsoever.

Why respond to me, then?

Because what you posted compared healthcare with gambling or driving a fast car. Stop digging the hole you created for yourself deeper - you said something that is entirely indefensible.

WTF are you ranting about.....hes right.....just because something is legal in another country, doesnt mean it should automatically be legal in Ireland. 

Following your logic 14 year olds should be able to get married, regular joe soaps should be allowed to own automatic weapons, prostitution should be legal, euthenasia should be legal ...etc, etc.
Ignore him. He's just pretending to be offended because a stupid point by Sid got torpedoed.

Offended? Who's offended?
The Syferus fella.
Mock outrage at a very valid point.
Syferus can speak for himself - I'm just laughing at the pig ignorant stupidity and inability to debate from the No side.

Keep it up, as somebody likes to say.

EH.....Im in favor of a Yes vote!

I voted Yes in the poll and have said at least half a dozen times on here that Im in favor of a Yes vote.

The issue I see with many of the Yes supporters is that unless everyone wholeheartedly agrees with every single nuance of their various arguments, they get painted as something theyre not.

It is a schoolyard bully tactic to shut down debate and silence any dissenting opinions (even of those who agree with them in principle but maybe not on every detail)

This is exactly what happened with Brexit and Trump and we know how those votes both turned out

Lolzers.

You are quite the snowflake.

I absolutely welcome different opinions, and if people want to throw out personal abuse, as the no side have been only too happy to do, I'm fine with that.

It just seems strange that there have been so few coherent opinions on the No side, and so few No supporting-posters who are willing to answer hard questions.

Very strange.

So it's a laughing matter now?

You mustn't have read much of Whitey's back catalogue of hits to post this.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.

Haha....good one......Im not the person jumping down everyones neck and insulting them for not agreeing with them.

People can have very good reasons for voting no.....thats the part you seem incapable of jnderstanding.....I have a friends here in the States who got a Downs Syndrome diagnosis about 25/30 years ago.  They got lots of pressure to terminate the pregnancy.....guess what, the foetus with Downs Syndrome graduated from Harvard Medical School last month
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 06:18:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.

Haha....good one......Im not the person jumping down everyones neck and insulting them for not agreeing with them.


You're just a troll with nothing to say.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 06:23:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 06:18:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.

Haha....good one......Im not the person jumping down everyones neck and insulting them for not agreeing with them.


You're just a troll with nothing to say.

Keep it up
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 14, 2018, 06:23:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 06:18:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.

Haha....good one......Im not the person jumping down everyones neck and insulting them for not agreeing with them.


You're just a troll with nothing to say.

He's correct on that score.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 14, 2018, 06:23:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 06:18:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.

Haha....good one......Im not the person jumping down everyones neck and insulting them for not agreeing with them.


You're just a troll with nothing to say.

He's correct on that score.

I was right on Trump, I was right on Brexit and Im right on the refferendum

Some people just dont like to hear opinions they disagree with
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 06:38:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 06:30:43 PM

Some people just dont like to hear opinions they disagree with
As No supporters have proved conclusively on this thread with their reactions to facts they don't like.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 14, 2018, 06:51:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 14, 2018, 06:23:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 06:18:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.

Haha....good one......Im not the person jumping down everyones neck and insulting them for not agreeing with them.


You're just a troll with nothing to say.

He's correct on that score.

I was right on Trump, I was right on Brexit and Im right on the refferendum

Some people just dont like to hear opinions they disagree with

That actually looks like I was agreeing with Sid. I was agreeing with your point, whitey.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 14, 2018, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 14, 2018, 06:51:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 14, 2018, 06:23:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 06:18:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 14, 2018, 03:49:07 PM
So what exactly did I say?

I called bvllshit on ONE article shared on "In her Shoes" where the girls real time blog completely contradicted her Irish Times interview.....her blog has since been removed

I also said that some on the Yes side were attempting to stifle debate by jumping down the throat of anyone who didnt completely agree with them on EVERYTHING
And you were correctly called out for being a bullshitter.

Your claim to be a Yes supporter is about as convincing as Dougal Maguire's claim to not be an anti-semite.

LOL.....thanks for proving my point
Stop trying to shut down debate.

Haha....good one......Im not the person jumping down everyones neck and insulting them for not agreeing with them.


You're just a troll with nothing to say.

He's correct on that score.

I was right on Trump, I was right on Brexit and Im right on the refferendum

Some people just dont like to hear opinions they disagree with

That actually looks like I was agreeing with Sid. I was agreeing with your point, whitey.

Thanks.....its kinda bizzare.....Im probably in agreement with him (and Syf) 90% on this subject, but because I have the audactity to have a dissenting opinion on one facet of the campaign (about the Yes side also making $hit up) and because I think that the NO side have "some" valid points hes out with a burning pitchfork
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:13:00 PM
QuoteAt the beginning of the campaign I argued that the sometimes hostile approach of not all, but many on the Yes side, more precisely those associated with fourth-wave feminism, will do little to convince the many undecided in the middle, that is, those which the opinion polls tell us remain undecided, of which I am one.

I suggested that science and fact, rather than rhetoric on social media, would do more to convince the middle ground than the occasionally smug approach adopted by some on the Yes side.
You know who you are.  ;D
The bigger the tossers on the Yes side, the more likely that No will win.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/facile-to-conflate-abortion-debate-and-cancer-scandal-36901093.html
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 10:36:17 PM
The No side whooping, hollering, booing, shouting and talking over other speakers at every opportunity here on the RTE 1 debate.

That's been the modus operandi of their campaign from the start.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:55:26 PM
It's surreal to think that we put Rhona Mahony and Peter Boylan in charge of the country's largest maternity hospital when they have expressed their utter contempt for the unborn child.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 14, 2018, 11:00:57 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:55:26 PM
It's surreal to think that we put Rhona Mahony and Peter Boylan in charge of the country's largest maternity hospital when they have expressed their utter contempt for the unborn child.

Way to demonise people because they don't agree with your zealotry on abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Puckoon on May 14, 2018, 11:01:31 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.

The chick in the red? She wouldn't be out of place on Fox News, such is her level of shite and absolute balderdash. She actually needs more stricter moderation from the host.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:03:21 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 14, 2018, 11:00:57 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:55:26 PM
It's surreal to think that we put Rhona Mahony and Peter Boylan in charge of the country's largest maternity hospital when they have expressed their utter contempt for the unborn child.

Way to demonise people because they don't agree with your zealotry on abortion.
They've demonised themselves with their anti-child opinions.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 14, 2018, 11:05:11 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:55:26 PM
It's surreal to think that we put Rhona Mahony and Peter Boylan in charge of the country's largest maternity hospital when they have expressed their utter contempt for the unborn child.

We'd the Catholic Church running the country and we know their contempt for women and children.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 11:06:28 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on May 14, 2018, 11:01:31 PM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.

The chick in the red? She wouldn't be out of place on Fox News, such is her level of shite and absolute balderdash. She actually needs more stricter moderation from the host.
She wiped out Mary Lou at the very end.
Peter Boylan is probably the best recruiting sergeant for the No side. An absolute liability for the abortionist side.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Puckoon on May 14, 2018, 11:14:45 PM
You see didn't wipe anything. She threw bluster and hyperbole and mud. She won't have converted anyone that's not equally as entrenched in emotive, unsubstantiated, terminology.

If you're looking for people to swing voters, place your enjoyment and confidence in the GPs who actually asked considered questions, such as the conscientious objection question.

RedSweater chick was a dose.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 12:43:19 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?

Ronan Mullen had no answer to it. Do you?

A simple Yes/No answer will suffice, as it's a simple Yes/No question.

I'll answer your question. The vast majority of abortions in Ireland will be medical, ie. by taking a pill, inducing miscarriage. Nobody pretends surgical abortions, which are a majority, are pretty, but they are necessary for women suffering crisis pregnancies - and the foetus up to 12 weeks is not a sentient being. It has no feeling whatsoever, not even close.

Oh, and perhaps you could name me a surgical procedure which is "pretty". I bet you can't.

The alternative - denying pregnant women vital cancer treatment and other essential healthcare (ie. denying their human rights), forcing women who have pregnacies involving fatal foetal abnormalities to carry them to term against their will, forcing rape victims to give birth against their will, is a lot more grotesque. And by voting No, you'll support all of those.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 12:57:12 AM
That debate was an absolutely frightening vista into the true insanity of the No camp.

Their shrieking, hectoring and bullying of Peter Boylan was horrifying, the disdain for knowledge terrifying. They hate him because they can't rebut his arguments and they can't rebut his facts.

Boylan was asked towards the end if a 12 week old foetus was fully grown.

Firstly, what an utter indictment of RTE and the No side that questions like this are being asked. Boylan, perhaps surprised to be asked such a stupid question, responded with the obvious and correct answer. No, a 12 week old foetus is not fully grown. 

His answer was met with furious booing from the No supporters in the audience. Even basic biological facts are booed by the No camp. I almost had to pinch myself that what I was watching and hearing wasn't satire.

As I did when I heard Mattie McGrath's cringeworthy contribution - a man whose level is fixing potholes, and whose shameless pig ignorance is sure to have won over some undecideds for Yes tonight.

Aodhan O'Riordain asked Ronan Mullen what he would do about a 12 year old rape victim who was made pregnant. Mullen had no answer, preferring to go into waffle mode. None of the No camp have an answer to this question.

Maria Steen has the techniques of US robo-conservative. Like all the representatives of the IONA "Instutute", her entire schtick is based around talking over others, interrupting and lying. 

The debate format was an embarrassment to the national broadcaster - it was like watching the Jerry Springer Show. Arguably the most important referendum in the country's history, and it was allowed to be hijacked by yahoos who think debating amounts to who can shout loudest.

Claire Byrne Live is a dreadful programme in general. Tabloid trash every week, but never more than this week. A profoundly fooking depressing spectacle.

It must be a very worrying time to be a woman in Ireland. The lack of empathy from the No side is truly terrifying.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 15, 2018, 10:31:42 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

And what is that?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 15, 2018, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

What is that? 

All in all I thought it was an appalling program.  RTE would have been better advised to have the two panels.  I was embarrassing for the audience whooping and shouting as if they are at a football match. 

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 11:29:52 AM
Genuine question, wtf do people think is the difference between "fully grown" "fully formed"? Personally, don't see it as a misrepresentation of anything.

Why is "fully formed" of such import to some people? What does it mean? That it has the general shape and outline of a baby? What about its internal organs etc, do they not matter?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 11:32:57 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 11:29:52 AM
Genuine question, wtf do people think is the difference between "fully grown" "fully formed"? Personally, don't see it as a misrepresentation of anything.

Why is "fully formed" of such import to some people? What does it mean? That it has the general shape and outline of a baby? What about its internal organs etc, do they not matter?

Well a 1 year old baby is fully formed, it has developed working organs etc. However, a 1 year old baby is obviously not fully grown. Whether it makes any difference is going to depend on your opinion. But there is a clear difference in the two terms as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 11:37:05 AM
It's a fully grown one year old baby though, no?

Again (and not specifically asking or targeting you, Itchy), what does "fully formed" mean??
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 15, 2018, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.

Im friends with some hardcore Republicans (of the Irish variety) on Facebook who are all very vocal NO supporters. Almost looks like they are trying to give the Shinners a black eye by defeating this. I would be curious to know if other on here have experienced the same thing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 15, 2018, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.

Im friends with some hardcore Republicans (of the Irish variety) on Facebook who are all very vocal NO supporters. Almost looks like they are trying to give the Shinners a black eye by defeating this. I would be curious to know if other on here have experienced the same thing.

Christ, you're trying hard.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 15, 2018, 01:47:57 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 15, 2018, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.

Im friends with some hardcore Republicans (of the Irish variety) on Facebook who are all very vocal NO supporters. Almost looks like they are trying to give the Shinners a black eye by defeating this. I would be curious to know if other on here have experienced the same thing.

Christ, you're trying hard.


YYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWNNNNN
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 15, 2018, 10:31:42 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

And what is that?
An actual expert.

The No side's obstetrician in last night's RTE debate was John Monaghan.

Monaghan works at Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe.

The below was in the news in the last couple of weeks. It would not inspire confidence in Dr. Monaghan.

QuoteMultiple failures identified in report into baby deaths at Galway hospital
Problems with staffing, training and communications contributed to problems, Portiuncula report states

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/multiple-failures-identified-in-report-into-baby-deaths-at-galway-hospital-1.3482993

And neither would this.

QuoteA six-year-old Co Roscommon boy who has had cerebral palsy since birth has been awarded a €4m settlement by the High Court.

Through his mother, Mary, Seamus Dwyer brought a case for damages against Portiuncula hospital in Ballinasloe in Co Galway.

The consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist in charge of Seamus's delivery, Dr John Monaghan, had admitted liability.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0324/74461-dwyers/

And neither would this.

https://www.imt.ie/opinion/doctor-showed-himself-up-with-lack-of-knowledge-28-04-2011/

I think it may well be Dr. Monaghan who needs to "go back to school".
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.
Peter Boylan was dead right. It's a preposterous notion to say a foetus is fully formed at 12 weeks. Have you ever heard of a viable 12 week old foetus?

In any country in Europe, in any country in the world, you can find obstetricians who are against access to safe, legal abortion.

But they are not guided in this by best medical practice. They are guided by their own personal version of morality, which is usually heavily influenced by religion.

For an obstetrician to go further and call for the retention of the 8th Amendment is not just saying that they are against abortion - it is saying that a particular, narrow version of morality should be imposed on everybody else.

Anybody guided by such is not putting the patient first.

The vst majority of obstetricians, gynaecologists, midwives, nurses and GPs favour the abolition of the 8th Amendment. It says a lot that those at the coalface are the ones who favour abolition of the 8th Amendment in the heaviest numbers of any field in society.

That's because they have the most knowledge of what the 8th Amendment does.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 02:28:47 PM
Nobody on the No side can answer the question of whether they believe a 12 year girl made pregnant by rape should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

It's the question they're desperate to avoid.

But one of them once let their guard down about their real views.

It was John McGuirk, spokesman for "Save The 8th".

And his real views are chilling.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdPT_mJX4AAsH55.jpg)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: scoopmine on May 15, 2018, 02:46:46 PM
The debate last night was comical, booing and cheering of points, speaking over each other and personal insults. Impossible to have a real debate in the circumstances. Seen more order on Jeremy Kyle..
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 02:28:47 PM
Nobody on the No side can answer the question of whether they believe a 12 year girl made pregnant by rape should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

It's the question they're desperate to avoid.

But one of them once let their guard down about their real views.

It was John McGuirk, spokesman for "Save The 8th".

And his real views are chilling.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdPT_mJX4AAsH55.jpg)

See Sid, again as an undecided, I think this is rubbish and I agree with the NO side in the sense that you cannot use extreme cases like this to change the law for 99.9% of other cases. If this is truly the issue then why not ask people to vote on an amendment to the constitution to cover child rape and incest? Again, I am open to any rationale debate and I am genuinely listening but I think this sort of argument is harming the YES argument.

For me, this should be decided on the basis that 99% (or some other big number which I dont have the data on) of people will have an abortion due to non health/mental health/incest/rape issues and the question is whether that is right or wrong.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 15, 2018, 03:55:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 02:28:47 PM
Nobody on the No side can answer the question of whether they believe a 12 year girl made pregnant by rape should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

It's the question they're desperate to avoid.

But one of them once let their guard down about their real views.

It was John McGuirk, spokesman for "Save The 8th".

And his real views are chilling.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdPT_mJX4AAsH55.jpg)

See Sid, again as an undecided, I think this is rubbish and I agree with the NO side in the sense that you cannot use extreme cases like this to change the law for 99.9% of other cases. If this is truly the issue then why not ask people to vote on an amendment to the constitution to cover child rape and incest? Again, I am open to any rationale debate and I am genuinely listening but I think this sort of argument is harming the YES argument.

For me, this should be decided on the basis that 99% (or some other big number which I dont have the data on) of people will have an abortion due to non health/mental health/incest/rape issues and the question is whether that is right or wrong.

That's not the question.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:06:09 PM
Thats the question for me lad. You might make your vote count for different reasons and thats up to you.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 04:29:14 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

..forget the hard cases?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 15, 2018, 05:05:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Add into the mix nut cases such as Maria Steen could end up challenging the hard cases in courts.

It's just not workable to put "workable" legislation in place for the exceptional circumstances. These things have been pointed out over and over again, debated for months but I still hear people on the no side asking why all the time.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 15, 2018, 05:06:45 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 15, 2018, 05:05:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Add into the mix nut cases such as Maria Steen could end up challenging the hard cases in courts.

It's just not realistic to put "workable" legislation in place for the exceptional circumstances. These things have been pointed out over and over again, debated for months but I still hear people on the no side asking why all the time.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 15, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

No.

185,000 abortions annually in Eng/Wales according to recent figures. I'd say 90-odd% of those are perfectly healthy foetuses. Absolutely shocking.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 05:23:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

The whole point of elective abortion is to provide a solution after the fact if someone doesn't want a baby. You keep talking about it as if it's a failure of the system when it is literally the system working as intended.

What you seem to want is a world where only those who are raped or their life is in danger can get an abortion. I and a lot more have no interest in that sort of compromise, one that will only lead to women feigning mental illness to get the medical care they require at home.

Solve for the problem that exists, not the one you want to exist.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 15, 2018, 05:28:06 PM
So basically Syferus, you want abortion on demand for everybody for any reason?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 05:30:19 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 15, 2018, 05:28:06 PM
So basically Syferus, you want abortion on demand for everybody for any reason?

I'm absolutely pro-choice. I believe women should have control over their own bodies and no one has anything to fear or lose from granting them that right.

Your attempt to load the question by calling it 'abortion on demand' shows exactly the headspace you're coming from, however.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Franko on May 15, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 05:23:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

The whole point of elective abortion is to provide a solution after the fact if someone doesn't want a baby. You keep talking about it as if it's a failure of the system when it is literally the system working as intended.

What you seem to want is a world where only those who are raped or their life is in danger can get an abortion. I and a lot more have no interest in that sort of compromise, one that will only lead to women feigning mental illness to get the medical care they require at home.

Solve for the problem that exsists, not the one you want to exsist.

You seem to have missed the point.  Most of the 'No' side don't want the law changed so this this type of solution "exsists" (lol) in this country.

The reason these figures are being pointed out is to highlight the prevalence of this type of approach in countries which have much more relaxed abortion laws and where elective abortions have become very much normalised.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 15, 2018, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 15, 2018, 05:30:19 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 15, 2018, 05:28:06 PM
So basically Syferus, you want abortion on demand for everybody for any reason?

I'm absolutely pro-choice. I believe women should have control over their own bodies and no one has anything to fear or lose from granting them that right.

Your attempt to load the question by calling it 'abortion on demand' shows exactly the headspace you're coming from, however.

Ok, abortion for any reason then. Call it what you will, it amounts to the same thing.

It's interesting to see you criticise my turn of phrase, when you're calling for that above.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.
Which is not a fact. It wasn't even the "fact" the No side were putting out, which was 1 in 5, which is also wrong, as it doesn't include miscarriages, of which there are many - there are no firm statistics on the amount of miscarriages but the NHS estimate it at around 1 in 6 of all pregnancies.

There are no proposals to bring in the same abortion laws as the UK, so the No campaign might as well be comparing apples and kiwis. If you're going to compare, you compare to countries which have 12 weeks.

Also, Ireland is still a socally conservative country by European standards. Therefore other socially conservative countries such as Italy or Poland would be more pertinent comparisons than Britain.

And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: mrdeeds on May 15, 2018, 05:56:30 PM
Yeah women are entitled to abortion for any reason. Who are you to tell them they can't without any knowlege of their circumstances or emotions?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 03:35:00 PM

See Sid, again as an undecided, I think this is rubbish and I agree with the NO side in the sense that you cannot use extreme cases like this to change the law for 99.9% of other cases. If this is truly the issue then why not ask people to vote on an amendment to the constitution to cover child rape and incest? Again, I am open to any rationale debate and I am genuinely listening but I think this sort of argument is harming the YES argument.

For me, this should be decided on the basis that 99% (or some other big number which I dont have the data on) of people will have an abortion due to non health/mental health/incest/rape issues and the question is whether that is right or wrong.
Bad law makes hard cases.

There is such a thing as "competing rights".

You can't have an equal right to life between a woman and a one hour old zygote. Their rights will compete because the zygote/embryo/foetus is entirely dependent on the woman who is carrying it.

In practice, the right of the unborn in the constitution tramples all over the rights of the woman.

The 8th Amendment is a legal abomination. We don't want to replace it with another legal abomination in the form of unworkable legislation for "exceptions".

I'd argue every case of a crisis pregnancy is a hard case. The No side argues that the law should simply ignore the real "hard cases". The rationale the No side uses could be used to discriminate against any minority you can think of - religious, sexual orientation, transgender, racial. And that sort of rationale is used around the world to discriminate against such minority groups. It's an attitude that must be kept out of Ireland.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 15, 2018, 08:38:53 PM
The extreme cases are sucking all the air out of the debate

Legislate for what happens in 99% of cases and establish an expert medical panel to decide on the rest.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 08:44:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.
Which is not a fact. It wasn't even the "fact" the No side were putting out, which was 1 in 5, which is also wrong, as it doesn't include miscarriages, of which there are many - there are no firm statistics on the amount of miscarriages but the NHS estimate it at around 1 in 6 of all pregnancies.

There are no proposals to bring in the same abortion laws as the UK, so the No campaign might as well be comparing apples and kiwis. If you're going to compare, you compare to countries which have 12 weeks.

Also, Ireland is still a socally conservative country by European standards. Therefore other socially conservative countries such as Italy or Poland would be more pertinent comparisons than Britain.

And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.

Link to that fact please.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 08:44:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/)

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.

It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.
Which is not a fact. It wasn't even the "fact" the No side were putting out, which was 1 in 5, which is also wrong, as it doesn't include miscarriages, of which there are many - there are no firm statistics on the amount of miscarriages but the NHS estimate it at around 1 in 6 of all pregnancies.

There are no proposals to bring in the same abortion laws as the UK, so the No campaign might as well be comparing apples and kiwis. If you're going to compare, you compare to countries which have 12 weeks.

Also, Ireland is still a socally conservative country by European standards. Therefore other socially conservative countries such as Italy or Poland would be more pertinent comparisons than Britain.

And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.

Link to that fact please.
No problem. Peter Boylan mentioned this towards the very end of last night's RTE debate before the No side shouted him down.

QuoteAbortion rates are higher in countries where the procedure is illegal and nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, with the vast majority in developing countries, a new study concludes.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned-6292070.html

QuoteAbortion rates go down when countries make it legal: report
Countries with stricter abortion laws have higher abortion rates

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476


I think this statistic is well worth mentioning too.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

QuoteIn South Africa, where abortion became legal in 1997, the number of women who died from complications after unsafe terminations in public facilities dropped by 90% in three years.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The big difference is that women will have a safe, secure environment to make the right choice for them, and will be secure in the knowledge that they will finally have access to medical best practice in terms of treatment if they suffer a crisis pregnancy.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.

It was interesting to note that in the debate on tonight's edition of PrimeTime on RTE, the No campaign put up Niamh Ui Bhriain, who will be familiar to anybody who remembers the debate over abortion in Ireland in 1992 as Niamh Nic Mathuna. Ui Bhriain founded Youth Defence, an utterly vile group of extremist headbangers who were set up with the sole aim of shouting down, vilifying and physically intimidating anybody opposed to a 1930s vision of "Holy Catlick Oireland". Youth Defence were and are implacably opposed to contraception, sex education, divorce, gay rights, and anything that doesn't conform to their insane backward agenda. Ui Bhriain still subscribes fully to that 1930s squinting windows vision.

That's before we even get to the links she and Youth Defence forged with neo-Nazis.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/neo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fneo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966

Ui Bhriain is, and I'm being kind to her, poisonous.

It's a devastating indictment of the No campaign that they're only too happy for her to represent them on national television.




Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 15, 2018, 11:54:41 PM
That Sid needs to go out for a bit of fresh air occasionally.
Get a fkn life buicín.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:09:17 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:10:42 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 15, 2018, 11:54:41 PM
That Sid needs to go out for a bit of fresh air occasionally.
Get a fkn life buicín.
Hmm...articulate!

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 16, 2018, 12:24:25 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 15, 2018, 11:54:41 PM
That Sid needs to go out for a bit of fresh air occasionally.
Get a fkn life buicín.

Mind your manners a little.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 12:33:09 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 12:43:19 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?
This is the tactic, try and use the extreme edge cases to open the floodgates.

It's like a Ferrari drivers club campaigning to have all speed limits and speed bumps removed from our roads because they claim they may potentially slow down an ambulance if there was ever an emergency.

I have way more respect for people like Ruth Coppinger who at least admit they want an abortion free for all, instead of hiding behind obscure scenarios.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:41:38 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 12:33:09 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 12:43:19 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?

This is the tactic, try and use the extreme edge cases to open the floodgates.

It's like a Ferrari drivers club campaigning to have all speed limits and speed bumps removed from our roads because they claim they may potentially slow down an ambulance if there was ever an emergency.

I have way more respect for people like Ruth Coppinger who at least admit they want an abortion free for all, instead of hiding behind obscure scenarios.
Attempting to deflect won't get you anywhere.

I answered your question on page 30 of this thread comprehensively.

Any chance you could answer the question I asked you? I've bolded it for your convenience.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 16, 2018, 01:03:48 AM
Shakespeare said "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose" so I'll join the copy & paste brigade:

"Irish Independent
14 May 2018
I am a practising consultant obstetrician in the Rotunda Hospital, now with 30 years' experience, and have previously served as Dean of Professional Competence in the Royal College of Physicians.
I have already put on record my concern regarding the false allegation that doctors are prevented from treating seriously ill women in pregnancy. I know that concern about this false allegation is shared by many in my profession.
I regret that I now feel obliged to add to these comments.
The risk to women's lives does not have to be imminent for doctors to take all necessary steps to protect women's lives and health. The current law and official guidelines are very clear in this regard.
I have never felt limited in my care of patients with sepsis, fulminating blood pressure, cancer, inevitable pregnancy loss, complex maternal illness, etc, when pregnancy was pre-viable.
Regarding the assertion that women have died because of the Eighth Amendment, Dr Peter Boylan cites as "evidence" three cases. On closer examination, however, none of these supports his contention.
The medical needs of the mother do not require removal of the Eighth Amendment.
I regret that there appears to be a campaign strategy to create a contrary impression in the minds of the public.
As persons trusted by the public to give expert advice and opinion, doctors should avoid giving inaccurate or misleading information whether to advance personal, political or philosophical views or not.
Mary Holohan FRCOG, FRCPI
Dublin 1"


It is extremely difficult to have a civil debate on this topic such are the polar opposite positions of those firmly in either camp. I'm in the NO camp and I explained my position previously - I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy and I believe that the 8th Amendment is a hugely important and positive element of our constitution. By voting NO I am simply using the democratic process to give my opinion on the ethos that I would wish for in our society. I do respect the opinions of those who will vote YES but I do not share their views and beliefs. I do not accept that a successful YES vote would be "progressive" given the inevitable normalisation over time of abortion on demand as has happened in UK, US etc.

The fact that our citizens travel to UK for abortions or purchase abortion pills online can never be used as valid reasons for legalising abortion in this country. We must cherish our independence and make the best decisions as we see fit for the common good of our citizens irrespective of the norms in other countries.

Given how each side of this debate is disrespecting each other at the moment it does not bode well for the post-referendum scenario irrespective of the outcome.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 01:36:34 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 16, 2018, 01:03:48 AM
Shakespeare said "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose" so I'll join the copy & paste brigade:

"Irish Independent
14 May 2018
I am a practising consultant obstetrician in the Rotunda Hospital, now with 30 years' experience, and have previously served as Dean of Professional Competence in the Royal College of Physicians.
I have already put on record my concern regarding the false allegation that doctors are prevented from treating seriously ill women in pregnancy. I know that concern about this false allegation is shared by many in my profession.
I regret that I now feel obliged to add to these comments.
The risk to women's lives does not have to be imminent for doctors to take all necessary steps to protect women's lives and health. The current law and official guidelines are very clear in this regard.
I have never felt limited in my care of patients with sepsis, fulminating blood pressure, cancer, inevitable pregnancy loss, complex maternal illness, etc, when pregnancy was pre-viable.
Regarding the assertion that women have died because of the Eighth Amendment, Dr Peter Boylan cites as "evidence" three cases. On closer examination, however, none of these supports his contention.
The medical needs of the mother do not require removal of the Eighth Amendment.
I regret that there appears to be a campaign strategy to create a contrary impression in the minds of the public.
As persons trusted by the public to give expert advice and opinion, doctors should avoid giving inaccurate or misleading information whether to advance personal, political or philosophical views or not.
Mary Holohan FRCOG, FRCPI
Dublin 1"


It is extremely difficult to have a civil debate on this topic such are the polar opposite positions of those firmly in either camp. I'm in the NO camp and I explained my position previously - I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy and I believe that the 8th Amendment is a hugely important and positive element of our constitution. By voting NO I am simply using the democratic process to give my opinion on the ethos that I would wish for in our society. I do respect the opinions of those who will vote YES but I do not share their views and beliefs. I do not accept that a successful YES vote would be "progressive" given the inevitable normalisation over time of abortion on demand as has happened in UK, US etc.

The fact that our citizens travel to UK for abortions or purchase abortion pills online can never be used as valid reasons for legalising abortion in this country. We must cherish our independence and make the best decisions as we see fit for the common good of our citizens irrespective of the norms in other countries.

Given how each side of this debate is disrespecting each other at the moment it does not bode well for the post-referendum scenario irrespective of the outcome.
Can you tell me why the vast majority of obstetricians, gynaecologists, midwives and GPs favour repeal?

Why do those with the most knowledge favour repeal in the heaviest numbers?

Anybody can pick out individuals. You can go to any country which has access to safe, legal abortion and find individual obstetricians who believe that their particular narrow moral view should be imposed on others.

Picking out individuals whose view is a minority and implying that their view is widespread when it's actually a fringe view is something the right do constantly. Climate change is a classic example.

Donald Trump refers to individual immigrants in the US who have committed a crime and uses these individual cases to demonise immigrants in general as criminals.

Picking out individual obstetricians who are of a very much minority view is using that same tactic to pretend they are much more numerous in number than they are in reality.

The No side has constantly told us how "hard cases" should be ignored.

I guess you could call these individuals in the medical profession who favour retention of the 8th Amendment "hard cases". They are very much a minority, and for the most part driven by their religious views, not by medical best practice and not by the needs of the patient.

Ultimately, your view comes down to this - you believe your narrow version of morality should be imposed on everybody else. That's it, and that's the case for the entire No side.

The problem with the morality argument is, well, your version of morality is very different to mine and to most people's. And the No side hasn't got facts to back up its position whereas the Yes side comprehensively has.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to force rape victims to carry a pregancy to term and ultimately force them to give birth against their will.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to deny pregnant women cancer treatment which if not given, could end up costing them their lives, as it did with Michelle Harte.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to force women to carry a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality to term.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral that Savita Halppanavar could not obtain the abortion which would have saved her life because the constitution wouldn't allow it.

I beleve it's thoroughly immoral that a pregnant woman should be forced to endure a serious risk to her health with no recourse to treatment because of the constitution.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to abandon Irish women who self administer abortion, which, should it go wrong, means they are placed in a nightmarish dilemma between presenting at a hospital and risking a 14 year prison sentence, and not seeking medical help with possible grave consequences for their health.

And cowardly.

In terms of respect, I've just been told by a No supporting poster to "get a fuckin' life".

Respect, how are ya.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 16, 2018, 03:51:42 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBepD4Mv9zw&feature=youtu.be


The RTE "debate"......Yes side had their arses handed to them
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 16, 2018, 06:33:19 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 16, 2018, 03:51:42 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBepD4Mv9zw&feature=youtu.be


The RTE "debate"......Yes side had their arses handed to them

Still pretending to be a Yes voter?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 06:58:33 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:41:38 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 12:33:09 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 12:43:19 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?

This is the tactic, try and use the extreme edge cases to open the floodgates.

It's like a Ferrari drivers club campaigning to have all speed limits and speed bumps removed from our roads because they claim they may potentially slow down an ambulance if there was ever an emergency.

I have way more respect for people like Ruth Coppinger who at least admit they want an abortion free for all, instead of hiding behind obscure scenarios.
Attempting to deflect won't get you anywhere.

I answered your question on page 30 of this thread comprehensively.

Any chance you could answer the question I asked you? I've bolded it for your convenience.
Don't be trying to fake concern for the mythical 12 year old. You'd care for her about as much as you do for the unborn child, but if she helps deliver you abortion
I'd favour the person being given counselling and support and giving the child up for for adoption.
There are thousands of parents on the adoption waiting lists while thousands of healthy babies get destroyed every year. The vast majority of them perfectly healthy.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 07:09:03 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 01:36:34 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 16, 2018, 01:03:48 AM
Shakespeare said "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose" so I'll join the copy & paste brigade:

"Irish Independent
14 May 2018
I am a practising consultant obstetrician in the Rotunda Hospital, now with 30 years' experience, and have previously served as Dean of Professional Competence in the Royal College of Physicians.
I have already put on record my concern regarding the false allegation that doctors are prevented from treating seriously ill women in pregnancy. I know that concern about this false allegation is shared by many in my profession.
I regret that I now feel obliged to add to these comments.
The risk to women's lives does not have to be imminent for doctors to take all necessary steps to protect women's lives and health. The current law and official guidelines are very clear in this regard.
I have never felt limited in my care of patients with sepsis, fulminating blood pressure, cancer, inevitable pregnancy loss, complex maternal illness, etc, when pregnancy was pre-viable.
Regarding the assertion that women have died because of the Eighth Amendment, Dr Peter Boylan cites as "evidence" three cases. On closer examination, however, none of these supports his contention.
The medical needs of the mother do not require removal of the Eighth Amendment.
I regret that there appears to be a campaign strategy to create a contrary impression in the minds of the public.
As persons trusted by the public to give expert advice and opinion, doctors should avoid giving inaccurate or misleading information whether to advance personal, political or philosophical views or not.
Mary Holohan FRCOG, FRCPI
Dublin 1"


It is extremely difficult to have a civil debate on this topic such are the polar opposite positions of those firmly in either camp. I'm in the NO camp and I explained my position previously - I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy and I believe that the 8th Amendment is a hugely important and positive element of our constitution. By voting NO I am simply using the democratic process to give my opinion on the ethos that I would wish for in our society. I do respect the opinions of those who will vote YES but I do not share their views and beliefs. I do not accept that a successful YES vote would be "progressive" given the inevitable normalisation over time of abortion on demand as has happened in UK, US etc.

The fact that our citizens travel to UK for abortions or purchase abortion pills online can never be used as valid reasons for legalising abortion in this country. We must cherish our independence and make the best decisions as we see fit for the common good of our citizens irrespective of the norms in other countries.

Given how each side of this debate is disrespecting each other at the moment it does not bode well for the post-referendum scenario irrespective of the outcome.
Can you tell me why the vast majority of obstetricians, gynaecologists, midwives and GPs favour repeal?

Why do those with the most knowledge favour repeal in the heaviest numbers?
Must dive in and start brow beating someone who doesn't agree with me. You're as good as recruiting sergeant for a No vote as Peter Boylan.

Where's you evidence of above? How many of the 18,000 have come out in favour of repealing?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Taylor on May 16, 2018, 08:14:40 AM
While I cannot vote, if I was in any way undecided listening to the Last Word yesterday evening I would know exactly where my vote lies now.

Why the no vote would have such an obnoxious ignorant woman involved in any campaign is mystifying
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 08:58:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:09:17 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?

I'm not.

I asked if you were inferring if this would be the case in Ireland and you said you weren't. This being the case, what's the value in mentioning it?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 16, 2018, 09:13:09 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 08:58:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:09:17 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?

I'm not.

I asked if you were inferring if this would be the case in Ireland and you said you weren't. This being the case, what's the value in mentioning it?

This all came from the false "1 in 5" assertion and other links to the UK (where a far more liberal regime than is proposed for here exists). I think the facts presented go a long way to refuting the scaremongering of the No side that abortion rates will sky rocket here if the proposed new regime is introduced.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 16, 2018, 10:02:14 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 16, 2018, 06:33:19 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 16, 2018, 03:51:42 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBepD4Mv9zw&feature=youtu.be


The RTE "debate"......Yes side had their arses handed to them

Still pretending to be a Yes voter?

If I had a vote I would be voting yes. Who picked the people who represented the Yes side......jesus they were terrible.....,they walked into every single ambush and trap that was laid for them, and kept referring back to cases that probably account for %< 1% of all terminations

If I was an undecided voter, the Yes side was very unconvincing in their arguments

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 16, 2018, 10:40:48 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 16, 2018, 08:14:40 AM
While I cannot vote, if I was in any way undecided listening to the Last Word yesterday evening I would know exactly where my vote lies now.

Why the no vote would have such an obnoxious ignorant woman involved in any campaign is mystifying

Would it not be a case that she was asked on the show as a representative of the no side (And no doubt making better viewing by being such a pr!ick)? I doubt there was a general consensus that she was best positioned to represent the entire no side, or at least you would have hoped not. Definitely the extreme elements of the no side are not having the best effect and I'd say are pushing people towards a yes vote.

Just with regards to the UK as mentioned earlier. Was wondering how many yes voters would agree with a similar legislation to the UK if it was on offer? Would that be the hope down the line? This isn't an attempt to catch you out on a thin edge of the wedge scenario, I'd genuinely be interested to see how many would welcome even more relaxed legislation or would most be happy that this caters for enough. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 10:43:20 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 16, 2018, 09:13:09 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 08:58:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:09:17 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?

I'm not.

I asked if you were inferring if this would be the case in Ireland and you said you weren't. This being the case, what's the value in mentioning it?

This all came from the false "1 in 5" assertion and other links to the UK (where a far more liberal regime than is proposed for here exists). I think the facts presented go a long way to refuting the scaremongering of the No side that abortion rates will sky rocket here if the proposed new regime is introduced.

You can't hold the position that data from another jurisdiction is irrelevant if you then choose to use similar data to further your own argument
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 16, 2018, 11:24:01 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 10:43:20 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 16, 2018, 09:13:09 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 08:58:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:09:17 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?

I'm not.

I asked if you were inferring if this would be the case in Ireland and you said you weren't. This being the case, what's the value in mentioning it?

This all came from the false "1 in 5" assertion and other links to the UK (where a far more liberal regime than is proposed for here exists). I think the facts presented go a long way to refuting the scaremongering of the No side that abortion rates will sky rocket here if the proposed new regime is introduced.

You can't hold the position that data from another jurisdiction is irrelevant if you then choose to use similar data to further your own argument

I'm not holding that position, far from it. All the available data would seem to indicate that the UK is an outlier. Yet the No side are using comparisons with it exclusively. I mention that the UK regime is far more liberal than here so as to highlight that it may not be the best comparison for here and what might happen here.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 16, 2018, 11:44:12 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 06:58:33 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:41:38 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 12:33:09 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 12:43:19 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?

This is the tactic, try and use the extreme edge cases to open the floodgates.

It's like a Ferrari drivers club campaigning to have all speed limits and speed bumps removed from our roads because they claim they may potentially slow down an ambulance if there was ever an emergency.

I have way more respect for people like Ruth Coppinger who at least admit they want an abortion free for all, instead of hiding behind obscure scenarios.
Attempting to deflect won't get you anywhere.

I answered your question on page 30 of this thread comprehensively.

Any chance you could answer the question I asked you? I've bolded it for your convenience.
Don't be trying to fake concern for the mythical 12 year old. You'd care for her about as much as you do for the unborn child, but if she helps deliver you abortion
I'd favour the person being given counselling and support and giving the child up for for adoption.
There are thousands of parents on the adoption waiting lists while thousands of healthy babies get destroyed every year.
The vast majority of them perfectly healthy.

This sort of sh1te really shows how deluded people are with their own personal bias.  ::)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 11:46:59 AM
I agree with you that the UK data isn't very useful (at least not without a massive health warning).  I believe sid is also of this opinion which is why I was wondering why he was quoting data from other jurisdictions as a key fact.

Anyway, this point has gone well off topic at this stage
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 16, 2018, 12:01:10 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 16, 2018, 11:44:12 AM
Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 16, 2018, 06:58:33 AM

Don't be trying to fake concern for the mythical 12 year old. You'd care for her about as much as you do for the unborn child, but if she helps deliver you abortion
I'd favour the person being given counselling and support and giving the child up for for adoption.
There are thousands of parents on the adoption waiting lists while thousands of healthy babies get destroyed every year.
The vast majority of them perfectly healthy.

This sort of sh1te really shows how deluded people are with their own personal bias.  ::)

Agree here. The adoption arguement is nonsense. The wishes and needs and wants of the thousands (is that true?) on adoption waiting lists has absolutely no relevance to the mother.

Another blatant display of how little a f**k some people actually care about the women involved in these cases.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

Those two pricks should have been aborted so maybe that's a good reason to vote yes alright
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 16, 2018, 07:08:38 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

True he's a tube then on other side Mickey Harte telling people how to vote. Clowns to the left of me jokers to the right...
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 16, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

Those two pricks should have been aborted so maybe that's a good reason to vote yes alright

You're wretched.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 16, 2018, 08:10:18 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

Maybe he can go down the Liffey with a megaphone shouting down people he doesn't agree with.  It worked real well for him with Brexit
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 16, 2018, 08:10:18 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

Maybe he can go down the Liffey with a megaphone shouting down people he doesn't agree with.  It worked real well for him with Brexit

Isn't the Liffey smelly enough?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 09:37:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 16, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

Those two pricks should have been aborted so maybe that's a good reason to vote yes alright

You're wretched.

For someone who supports abortion you get awful squeamish when I bring it up. Poor precious.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 17, 2018, 09:20:38 AM
Wow. People canvassing for a vote one way or another in a democracy. What next?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 10:05:25 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

Those two pricks should have been aborted so maybe that's a good reason to vote yes alright
There's the famous "respect" that the No side pride themselves on.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 10:11:09 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 10:43:20 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 16, 2018, 09:13:09 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 08:58:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2018, 12:09:17 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?

I'm not.

I asked if you were inferring if this would be the case in Ireland and you said you weren't. This being the case, what's the value in mentioning it?

This all came from the false "1 in 5" assertion and other links to the UK (where a far more liberal regime than is proposed for here exists). I think the facts presented go a long way to refuting the scaremongering of the No side that abortion rates will sky rocket here if the proposed new regime is introduced.

You can't hold the position that data from another jurisdiction is irrelevant if you then choose to use similar data to further your own argument
The No campaign is based around false data from one particular other jurisdisction which has a different law to what is being proposed in this country.

They have cherry picked one other country, they have advanced false data.

And yet it's apparently offside to mention actual general worldwide trends.

I'm afraid this attitude from the No side does not compute on any level of logic whatsoever.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 17, 2018, 10:37:31 AM
No campaign have defaced Benbulben in Sligo this morning. That'll help tourism. Thanks.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 10:11:09 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 10:43:20 AM

You can't hold the position that data from another jurisdiction is irrelevant if you then choose to use similar data to further your own argument
The No campaign is based around false data from one particular other jurisdisction which has a different law to what is being proposed in this country.

They have cherry picked one other country, they have advanced false data.

And yet it's apparently offside to mention actual general worldwide trends.

I'm afraid this attitude from the No side does not compute on any level of logic whatsoever.

Sid, you've been very strong on the point of inaccurate or misportrayal of information by the No side. After you made this statement: "And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.", you posted a couple of links to back this up. These are a selection of quotes from two of those links:

QuoteExperts could not say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies

QuoteDr Sedgh said there was a link between higher abortion rates and regions with more restrictive legislation, such as in Latin America and Africa.

QuoteEasier access to birth control drives down abortion rates, the report also finds.

QuoteThe report finds about 56 million abortions occur every year — nearly 50 million of them in developing countries. About a quarter of all pregnancies end in abortion.

Quote"Improved contraceptive use, and in turn, declines in unintended pregnancy rates are the likely driver behind the worldwide decline in abortion rates,"

QuoteThe report found abortion rates vary greatly region by region. Much of the reduction in abortions overall follows changes in the former Soviet Union, with policies encouraging contraception over abortion.
Quote
The highest abortion rates are now found in Latin America and the Caribbean, where abortion is strongly restricted legally.

So I would again have to question the relevance of your statement considering that you (and I) don't think that the UK figures are particularly important.

Do you consider what you said to be "false data"?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trailer on May 17, 2018, 11:32:45 AM
I don't have a vote. But I would ask that you trust women and vote Yes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 10:11:09 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 16, 2018, 10:43:20 AM

You can't hold the position that data from another jurisdiction is irrelevant if you then choose to use similar data to further your own argument
The No campaign is based around false data from one particular other jurisdisction which has a different law to what is being proposed in this country.

They have cherry picked one other country, they have advanced false data.

And yet it's apparently offside to mention actual general worldwide trends.

I'm afraid this attitude from the No side does not compute on any level of logic whatsoever.

Sid, you've been very strong on the point of inaccurate or misportrayal of information by the No side. After you made this statement: "And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.", you posted a couple of links to back this up. These are a selection of quotes from two of those links:

QuoteExperts could not say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies

QuoteDr Sedgh said there was a link between higher abortion rates and regions with more restrictive legislation, such as in Latin America and Africa.

QuoteEasier access to birth control drives down abortion rates, the report also finds.

QuoteThe report finds about 56 million abortions occur every year — nearly 50 million of them in developing countries. About a quarter of all pregnancies end in abortion.

Quote"Improved contraceptive use, and in turn, declines in unintended pregnancy rates are the likely driver behind the worldwide decline in abortion rates,"

QuoteThe report found abortion rates vary greatly region by region. Much of the reduction in abortions overall follows changes in the former Soviet Union, with policies encouraging contraception over abortion.
Quote
The highest abortion rates are now found in Latin America and the Caribbean, where abortion is strongly restricted legally.

So I would again have to question the relevance of your statement considering that you (and I) don't think that the UK figures are particularly important.

Do you consider what you said to be "false data"?
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:51:40 AM
Can anybody make a case as to how the 8th Amendment has helped women in any way since 1983?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 17, 2018, 11:58:10 AM
Couldn't be bothered reading back. Anyway Sid, are you pro abortion?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 12:07:00 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 17, 2018, 11:58:10 AM
Couldn't be bothered reading back. Anyway Sid, are you pro abortion?
I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

Nobody is pro-abortion. They are pro-access to abortion.

That's the whole point.

I'm not telling anybody what to do. The Yes side is not telling anybody what to do.

The No side are very definitely telling people what to do. They are demanding that others have NO say over their own bodies, demanding that women have no access to treatment to protect their health.

The No side should more accurately be called the "anti-health" side, or the "pro-death" side, given that they are more than prepared to accept the deaths of women to keep their views imposed on women.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 17, 2018, 02:04:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 17, 2018, 10:37:31 AM
No campaign have defaced Benbulben in Sligo this morning. That'll help tourism. Thanks.

Nearly as good an idea as murdering the elderly member of the Royal family and a young boy up the road.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 17, 2018, 02:28:17 PM
I've no idea how the likes of Sid and Seanie do it, but fair play lads, you have done an amazing job putting forward the case for a Yes vote.

I don't envy your bosses though  ;D
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 02:37:40 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 10:05:25 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:29:21 PM
Bob Geldof is appealing on men to vote Yes.  Krusty the clown wasn't available.
Why the f**k do people think we will allow Geldof Bono etc influence how we vote

Those two pricks should have been aborted so maybe that's a good reason to vote yes alright
There's the famous "respect" that the No side pride themselves on.

I'm probably voting YES buddy, but if you dont like my respect then maybe you should now vote NO?
No apologies from me for having zero respect for those two embarrassing hypocrites.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?

You're some yoke.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: screenexile on May 17, 2018, 03:16:51 PM
John Waters stormed out of the Dunphy interview. . . hilarious!!!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 17, 2018, 03:26:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?

Believe me. It wasn't tongue in cheek.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trailer on May 17, 2018, 03:31:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?

Gas?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:58:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 17, 2018, 03:31:39 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?

Gas?

Well more fool them if they did.....I know what my Mrs would tell me to do!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: johnnycool on May 17, 2018, 04:07:21 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 17, 2018, 03:26:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?

Believe me. It wasn't tongue in cheek.

It certainly didn't read that way.
Probably should be in the WTF thread if your man was serious.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 17, 2018, 04:10:43 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 17, 2018, 04:07:21 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 17, 2018, 03:26:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?

Believe me. It wasn't tongue in cheek.

It certainly didn't read that way.
Probably should be in the WTF thread if your man was serious.

I Almost sounds like a Father Ted episode.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 06:40:13 PM
Miss C ( from famous c case) on RTE news asking yes side to stop using her as an example for why to vote yes and also advocating a No vote.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 17, 2018, 06:42:53 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 17, 2018, 06:27:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?
This is WTF in itself. A man unable to fathom how someone could be making tea without a kettle.
Have you ever had a picnic?

LOL... FFS they were up there for what, a couple of hours??    Most of them were probably locals to begin with and could have had their breakfast before they left the house.

Even if you wanted tea when you were up there Wouldn't you just bring a flask with you? You wouldn't need to be dragging a gang of women half way up a mountain to make tea and sandwiches for yin.

Sounds like $hite to me
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 07:20:29 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 06:42:53 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 17, 2018, 06:27:35 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 17, 2018, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0517/964129-ben-bulben-sligo-sign/

QuoteIt was put up by men and there were women there as well, he said, making  tea and sandwiches.

I think it perfectly encapsulates the no side's attitudes that they didn't even let women build the monstrosity. Landmarks shouldn't be politicised like this, commonage or not. The law needs to change to prevent this in future.

Do you not think the part about making tea and sandwiches was tongue in cheek. How the fvck would you boil a kettle half way up a mountain?
This is WTF in itself. A man unable to fathom how someone could be making tea without a kettle.
Have you ever had a picnic?

LOL... FFS they were up there for what, a couple of hours??    Most of them were probably locals to begin with and could have had their breakfast before they left the house.

Even if you wanted tea when you were up there Wouldn't you just bring a flask with you? You wouldn't need to be dragging a gang of women half way up a mountain to make tea and sandwiches for yin.

Sounds like $hite to me

Christ.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 17, 2018, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

You will find that while Varadkar and Zappone are happy to eliminate those with mental or physical deviations when someone (in Russia or China) devises a prenatal test for homosexuality they will be singing quite a different tune.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 09:41:03 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 17, 2018, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

You will find that while Varadkar and Zappone are happy to eliminate those with mental or physical deviations when someone (in Russia or China) devises a prenatal test for homosexuality they will be singing quite a different tune.

That's pretty shocking about Iceland.
Opens a whole can of worms about designer babies/population, paying for healthcare, economic contribution etc. But I guess it's already started in a way anyway

Tho would have to say there is no possibility of a similar test for homosexuality as the genetic factor is only at 20%. Whereas for down syndrome it's 100%
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 17, 2018, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Any facts to back any of that up?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/iceland-eliminated-syndrome-abortion/#
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 09:59:56 PM
Someone rubbished 1:5 stat I mentioned earlier. Looking at prime time 1:5 seems reasonable assumption based on many countries.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:20:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 09:59:56 PM
Someone rubbished 1:5 stat I mentioned earlier. Looking at prime time 1:5 seems reasonable assumption based on many countries.

Yeah it is I did a calc of my own 20 pages back looks more like 1in4 for eng&Wales 2016. The miscarriage thing is complicated as it it highest risk early in pregnancy and decreases with every passing week and is highly dependant on the mothers age and miscarriage history so it's difficult to factor in one way or another.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.

Downs syndrome aren't healthy? Fair enuff if that's your opinion
What about club foot...cleft lip...girl?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Esmarelda on May 17, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
I've just watched Prime Time and there's something I don't understand about the material they covered.

They looked at Portugal and how many abortions they had in 2008 and then how many over the next few years. They told us how many per pregnancy were aborted and then they told how many women of child-bearing age per thousand had abortions and more and more stats.

My question is, who is this type of information supposed to sway? It's anything but a black and white issue, but at the same time is anyone on this board going to be swayed either way by these numbers?

If you're against abortion then you're against one abortion, two abortions or ten thousand abortions. If you're pro-choice then you'll realise that there are currently, say for argument's sake, 2,000 Irish women having abortions per year. If you're told that this will double or treble in the next ten years, are you going to take the view that that's too many so you'll vote No instead?

Surely the decision is based on how you view life and how you view choice and not on a rising scale of abortions?

I also heard Simon Harris on the radio today fielding questions from "numerous listeners" who wanted to know if the money to pay for these abortions is going to come at the expense of other healthcare areas. People might actually vote based on how much this is going to cost?

Am I missing something here or is there a sizeable portion of the electorate that are thinking this way?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:40:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
I've just watched Prime Time and there's something I don't understand about the material they covered.

They looked at Portugal and how many abortions they had in 2008 and then how many over the next few years. They told us how many per pregnancy were aborted and then they told how many women of child-bearing age per thousand had abortions and more and more stats.

My question is, who is this type of information supposed to sway? It's anything but a black and white issue, but at the same time is anyone on this board going to be swayed either way by these numbers?

If you're against abortion then you're against one abortion, two abortions or ten thousand abortions. If you're pro-choice then you'll realise that there are currently, say for argument's sake, 2,000 Irish women having abortions per year. If you're told that this will double or treble in the next ten years, are you going to take the view that that's too many so you'll vote No instead?

Surely the decision is based on how you view life and how you view choice and not on a rising scale of abortions?

I also heard Simon Harris on the radio today fielding questions from "numerous listeners" who wanted to know if the money to pay for these abortions is going to come at the expense of other healthcare areas. People might actually vote based on how much this is going to cost?

Am I missing something here or is there a sizeable portion of the electorate that are thinking this way?

Good point I'm not at least

However this seemed to start from the yes side saying that the no side is making stuff up. Especially about the ratio of babies born v aborted. When in actual fact it seems to be higher in eng and Wales than the no side were actually saying. Seems like the yes side are crying foul when they have nothing to cry foul about.

And sorry to add fuel to the fire but Tbh I think it's all side of yes side tactic of trying to paint the no side as ignorant buffoons and to influence voters by guilt by association.

But you are right when it boils down to it this is a vote on the 99% of abortions that are carried out on healthy consensual pregnancies  which at the end of the day is a straight up choice between life of the child v choice of the mother
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:46:17 PM
By the way did Leo say yesterday that Down's Syndrome babies would be protected in the legislation he has proposed?

How in the hell is he going to do that with unrestricted terminations up to 12weeks when you can have the test done at 10?

Or is he just spouting shite to make himself sound good?


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:40:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
I've just watched Prime Time and there's something I don't understand about the material they covered.

They looked at Portugal and how many abortions they had in 2008 and then how many over the next few years. They told us how many per pregnancy were aborted and then they told how many women of child-bearing age per thousand had abortions and more and more stats.

My question is, who is this type of information supposed to sway? It's anything but a black and white issue, but at the same time is anyone on this board going to be swayed either way by these numbers?

If you're against abortion then you're against one abortion, two abortions or ten thousand abortions. If you're pro-choice then you'll realise that there are currently, say for argument's sake, 2,000 Irish women having abortions per year. If you're told that this will double or treble in the next ten years, are you going to take the view that that's too many so you'll vote No instead?

Surely the decision is based on how you view life and how you view choice and not on a rising scale of abortions?

I also heard Simon Harris on the radio today fielding questions from "numerous listeners" who wanted to know if the money to pay for these abortions is going to come at the expense of other healthcare areas. People might actually vote based on how much this is going to cost?

Am I missing something here or is there a sizeable portion of the electorate that are thinking this way?

Good point I'm not at least

However this seemed to start from the yes side saying that the no side is making stuff up. Especially about the ratio of babies born v aborted. When in actual fact it seems to be higher in eng and Wales than the no side were actually saying. Seems like the yes side are crying foul when they have nothing to cry foul about.

And sorry to add fuel to the fire but Tbh I think it's all side of yes side tactic of trying to paint the no side as ignorant buffoons and to influence voters by guilt by association.

But you are right when it boils down to it this is a vote on the 99% of abortions that are carried out on healthy consensual pregnancies  which at the end of the day is a straight up choice between life of the child v choice of the mother

I think you are dead right.
This has shown me the yes side are well able to spout lies too however I'm inclined to vote yes I think when all is balanced up. I just hope the government put systems in place to properly support women thinking of having an abortion and present them with all options.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 11:07:52 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.

Downs syndrome aren't healthy? Fair enuff if that's your opinion
What about club foot...cleft lip...girl?

Typical No side nonsense. Thankfully you won't get to actually vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 17, 2018, 11:10:32 PM
Like Brexit, whichever side wins, they'll be accused of spinning lies and fake news.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 17, 2018, 11:31:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

We don't actually know yet what will be in operation. That's the thing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 17, 2018, 11:34:12 PM
Tonight's Would You Believe programme on RTE was very informative – I'm not sure if it is available on RTE Player just yet but should available soon.

An Irish Solution: A Would You Believe? Special, RTÉ One, 10.15pm
In this WYB? special, reporter Mick Peelo brings us through the complex moral minefield facing Ireland on the issue of abortion. On Referendum day, May 25, the Irish people will make one of the most important decisions this country has ever faced about our values. At stake is our understanding of what constitutes a human life and whether the unborn should have equal rights to the women who bear them. Mick looks at the stories and values on all sides of the debate and explores what's at stake for our society, whether the outcome is to repeal or retain the Eighth Amendment to our Constitution.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Wildweasel74 on May 17, 2018, 11:40:44 PM
Excuse me for my ignorance: as i dont have a vote up here; havent really been following!! The appeal of the 8th amendment; what excately does it entail? Is it a general change for abortion or for possible rape cases; danger to the mother; severe disability? I read about abortion possible under this up to 12 wks! Is this for all cases or for the issues i previously mentioned! Its abit like brexit; people dont know the ins and outs of what they are voting for!@
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 17, 2018, 11:44:03 PM
https://refcom2018.refcom.ie/ provides an independent guide https://refcom2018.refcom.ie/refcom-guide-2018-english.pdf

Draft Legislation (if 8th Amendment is repealed )
http://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/General-Scheme-for-Publication.pdf
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:45:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:40:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
I've just watched Prime Time and there's something I don't understand about the material they covered.

They looked at Portugal and how many abortions they had in 2008 and then how many over the next few years. They told us how many per pregnancy were aborted and then they told how many women of child-bearing age per thousand had abortions and more and more stats.

My question is, who is this type of information supposed to sway? It's anything but a black and white issue, but at the same time is anyone on this board going to be swayed either way by these numbers?

If you're against abortion then you're against one abortion, two abortions or ten thousand abortions. If you're pro-choice then you'll realise that there are currently, say for argument's sake, 2,000 Irish women having abortions per year. If you're told that this will double or treble in the next ten years, are you going to take the view that that's too many so you'll vote No instead?

Surely the decision is based on how you view life and how you view choice and not on a rising scale of abortions?

I also heard Simon Harris on the radio today fielding questions from "numerous listeners" who wanted to know if the money to pay for these abortions is going to come at the expense of other healthcare areas. People might actually vote based on how much this is going to cost?

Am I missing something here or is there a sizeable portion of the electorate that are thinking this way?

Good point I'm not at least

However this seemed to start from the yes side saying that the no side is making stuff up. Especially about the ratio of babies born v aborted. When in actual fact it seems to be higher in eng and Wales than the no side were actually saying. Seems like the yes side are crying foul when they have nothing to cry foul about.

And sorry to add fuel to the fire but Tbh I think it's all side of yes side tactic of trying to paint the no side as ignorant buffoons and to influence voters by guilt by association.

But you are right when it boils down to it this is a vote on the 99% of abortions that are carried out on healthy consensual pregnancies  which at the end of the day is a straight up choice between life of the child v choice of the mother

I think you are dead right.
This has shown me the yes side are well able to spout lies too however I'm inclined to vote yes I think when all is balanced up. I just hope the government put systems in place to properly support women thinking of having an abortion and present them with all options.

The No campaign have claimed that one in five pregnancies in the UK end in abortion.

Quotehttps://loveboth.ie/abortion-in-england-1-in-5/
In the UK, 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion

They've also claimed the 1 in 5 figure for England.

Neither can be true, because they are not counting miscarriages, which the NHS estimates at 1 in 6 pregnancies.

They would be correct if they were claiming the ratio of abortions to babies born was one in five.

But that's not what they were claiming.

They claimed all pregnancies.

And they were wrong.

I don't really see what real relevance any of this has, but if one side is going to claim something, the onus is on the side claiming that thing to make sure it's correct. In this case, it wasnt.

And that's been the general pattern of the No campaign - lies and fake statistics.

Still they're claiming that foetuses yawn. They don't.
Quotehttps://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/referendum-posters-depicting-a-foetus-yawning-are-not-factually-accurate-36868779.html

Anti-repeal posters depicting babies yawning and kicking at nine weeks are "not factually accurate" and are causing "extreme distress" among pregnant women, the master of Rotunda Maternity Hospital, Professor Fergal Malone, said yesterday.

The "idea of a foetus yawning is not factually accurate, because a foetus in the womb is under water and there is no air in the uterus", the professor told the Irish Independent.

"A yawn is an inhalation of breath."

Hell, David Quinn claimed during Monday night's debate that there are 18,000 GPs in Ireland. There are 2,500.

It seems he was fooled by a reference to a 10 year-old Irish Times story that referenced "18,000 GPS location in Ireland".

https://twitter.com/sweetoblivion26/status/996285273137930240

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 17, 2018, 11:46:56 PM
John Waters making an absolute tit of himself (well more of one than normal) on Eamon Dunphy's podcast today. Strange hearing Dunphy as a moderating voice of reason!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 17, 2018, 11:46:56 PM
John Waters making an absolute tit of himself (well more of one than normal) on Eamon Dunphy's podcast today. Strange hearing Dunphy as a moderating voice of reason!

https://twitter.com/radiocleary/status/997096299529940993?s=21

Ironic that in a debate about the 8th Amendment, we get to find out what the sound of Waters breaking is like.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

It was factually correct sid tbf. It's also factually correct to say that countries with higher use of suncream have higher rates of shark attacks. It would hardly be a worthwhile statement though.

You're on here whinging about facts but you have no problem being disingenuous yourself. Hypocrisy how are ya

I've tried to engage with you on genuine points but you seem to be too blinded by your zealotry to consider that it might not just be a one-sided story. I'll leave you to it
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 11:59:33 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:45:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:40:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
I've just watched Prime Time and there's something I don't understand about the material they covered.

They looked at Portugal and how many abortions they had in 2008 and then how many over the next few years. They told us how many per pregnancy were aborted and then they told how many women of child-bearing age per thousand had abortions and more and more stats.

My question is, who is this type of information supposed to sway? It's anything but a black and white issue, but at the same time is anyone on this board going to be swayed either way by these numbers?

If you're against abortion then you're against one abortion, two abortions or ten thousand abortions. If you're pro-choice then you'll realise that there are currently, say for argument's sake, 2,000 Irish women having abortions per year. If you're told that this will double or treble in the next ten years, are you going to take the view that that's too many so you'll vote No instead?

Surely the decision is based on how you view life and how you view choice and not on a rising scale of abortions?

I also heard Simon Harris on the radio today fielding questions from "numerous listeners" who wanted to know if the money to pay for these abortions is going to come at the expense of other healthcare areas. People might actually vote based on how much this is going to cost?

Am I missing something here or is there a sizeable portion of the electorate that are thinking this way?

Good point I'm not at least

However this seemed to start from the yes side saying that the no side is making stuff up. Especially about the ratio of babies born v aborted. When in actual fact it seems to be higher in eng and Wales than the no side were actually saying. Seems like the yes side are crying foul when they have nothing to cry foul about.

And sorry to add fuel to the fire but Tbh I think it's all side of yes side tactic of trying to paint the no side as ignorant buffoons and to influence voters by guilt by association.

But you are right when it boils down to it this is a vote on the 99% of abortions that are carried out on healthy consensual pregnancies  which at the end of the day is a straight up choice between life of the child v choice of the mother

I think you are dead right.
This has shown me the yes side are well able to spout lies too however I'm inclined to vote yes I think when all is balanced up. I just hope the government put systems in place to properly support women thinking of having an abortion and present them with all options.

The No campaign have claimed that one in five pregnancies in the UK end in abortion.

Quotehttps://loveboth.ie/abortion-in-england-1-in-5/
In the UK, 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion

They've also claimed the 1 in 5 figure for England.

Neither can be true, because they are not counting miscarriages, which the NHS estimates at 1 in 6 pregnancies.

They would be correct if they were claiming the ratio of abortions to babies born was one in five.

But that's not what they were claiming.

They claimed all pregnancies.

And they were wrong.

I don't really see what real relevance any of this has, but if one side is going to claim something, the onus is on the side claiming that thing to make sure it's correct. In this case, it wasnt.

And that's been the general pattern of the No campaign - lies and fake statistics.

Still they're claiming that foetuses yawn. They don't.
Quotehttps://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/referendum-posters-depicting-a-foetus-yawning-are-not-factually-accurate-36868779.html

Anti-repeal posters depicting babies yawning and kicking at nine weeks are "not factually accurate" and are causing "extreme distress" among pregnant women, the master of Rotunda Maternity Hospital, Professor Fergal Malone, said yesterday.

The "idea of a foetus yawning is not factually accurate, because a foetus in the womb is under water and there is no air in the uterus", the professor told the Irish Independent.

"A yawn is an inhalation of breath."

Hell, David Quinn claimed during Monday night's debate that there are 18,000 GPs in Ireland. There are 2,500.

It seems he was fooled by a reference to a 10 year-old Irish Times story that referenced "18,000 GPS location in Ireland".

https://twitter.com/sweetoblivion26/status/996285273137930240

Have you got any stats & maths for that Sid?

I calculated 1in4 for Eng&Wales in 2016 which is the latest figures.

And that factored in miscarriages, which are extremely difficult to factor in, not least because most of them occur before most abortions take place, and the age of the mother
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

It was factually correct sid tbf. It's also factually correct to say that countries with higher use of suncream have higher rates of shark attacks. It would hardly be a worthwhile statement though.

You're on here whinging about facts but you have no problem being disingenuous yourself. Hypocrisy how are ya

I've tried to engage with you on genuine points but you seem to be too blinded by your zealotry to consider that it might not just be a one-sided story. I'll leave you to it
Is that a serious response? I guess not.

I'm pointing out relevant facts.

Banning abortion is a proven failed policy worldwide.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:04:06 AM
Here's my own calcs on that

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:41:10 AM
So I did a bit of my own research and maths on this...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2016

2016
England and Wales births: 696 271
E&W abortions: 185 596

That works out at 1 in 3.75

Now the miscarriage question is a complicated one, for a start it varies hugely on gestational age and a whole range of other factors for the baby and mother.

https://expectingscience.com/2015/08/26/lies-damned-lies-and-miscarriage-statistics/

The first 5/6 weeks the risk is very high and it will likely skew the overall figure, so perhaps that is where the 1 in 6 comes from. However at 6 weeks the fetus seems to average a 10% (1 in 10) chance of miscarriage and tapering off to 5% (1 in 20) at 8 weeks and further decrease as the pregnancy progresses.
Most abortions are carried out between 5-10 weeks when it seems the risk is for the sake of argument probably around 1 in 10. Its likely less but if someone wants to do the math tear away, and also the mothers age of abortions is lower which would mean they are more likely to survive and not to mention the repeat miscarriages from mother who want to have a successful pregnancy. I think it is likely more like 1 in 15 but we will go with the 1 in 10 as a safety factor.

So working that 1 in 10 into the original stats it works out at  1 in 4.16.

I open to corrections of course but all in all the 1 in 4 doesn't look like a gross exaggeration that its depicted.

This is also only one year of course but if someone wants to do a few more years be my guest
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:04:28 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 11:59:33 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:45:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:40:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
I've just watched Prime Time and there's something I don't understand about the material they covered.

They looked at Portugal and how many abortions they had in 2008 and then how many over the next few years. They told us how many per pregnancy were aborted and then they told how many women of child-bearing age per thousand had abortions and more and more stats.

My question is, who is this type of information supposed to sway? It's anything but a black and white issue, but at the same time is anyone on this board going to be swayed either way by these numbers?

If you're against abortion then you're against one abortion, two abortions or ten thousand abortions. If you're pro-choice then you'll realise that there are currently, say for argument's sake, 2,000 Irish women having abortions per year. If you're told that this will double or treble in the next ten years, are you going to take the view that that's too many so you'll vote No instead?

Surely the decision is based on how you view life and how you view choice and not on a rising scale of abortions?

I also heard Simon Harris on the radio today fielding questions from "numerous listeners" who wanted to know if the money to pay for these abortions is going to come at the expense of other healthcare areas. People might actually vote based on how much this is going to cost?

Am I missing something here or is there a sizeable portion of the electorate that are thinking this way?

Good point I'm not at least

However this seemed to start from the yes side saying that the no side is making stuff up. Especially about the ratio of babies born v aborted. When in actual fact it seems to be higher in eng and Wales than the no side were actually saying. Seems like the yes side are crying foul when they have nothing to cry foul about.

And sorry to add fuel to the fire but Tbh I think it's all side of yes side tactic of trying to paint the no side as ignorant buffoons and to influence voters by guilt by association.

But you are right when it boils down to it this is a vote on the 99% of abortions that are carried out on healthy consensual pregnancies  which at the end of the day is a straight up choice between life of the child v choice of the mother

I think you are dead right.
This has shown me the yes side are well able to spout lies too however I'm inclined to vote yes I think when all is balanced up. I just hope the government put systems in place to properly support women thinking of having an abortion and present them with all options.

The No campaign have claimed that one in five pregnancies in the UK end in abortion.

Quotehttps://loveboth.ie/abortion-in-england-1-in-5/
In the UK, 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion

They've also claimed the 1 in 5 figure for England.

Neither can be true, because they are not counting miscarriages, which the NHS estimates at 1 in 6 pregnancies.

They would be correct if they were claiming the ratio of abortions to babies born was one in five.

But that's not what they were claiming.

They claimed all pregnancies.

And they were wrong.

I don't really see what real relevance any of this has, but if one side is going to claim something, the onus is on the side claiming that thing to make sure it's correct. In this case, it wasnt.

And that's been the general pattern of the No campaign - lies and fake statistics.

Still they're claiming that foetuses yawn. They don't.
Quotehttps://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/referendum-posters-depicting-a-foetus-yawning-are-not-factually-accurate-36868779.html

Anti-repeal posters depicting babies yawning and kicking at nine weeks are "not factually accurate" and are causing "extreme distress" among pregnant women, the master of Rotunda Maternity Hospital, Professor Fergal Malone, said yesterday.

The "idea of a foetus yawning is not factually accurate, because a foetus in the womb is under water and there is no air in the uterus", the professor told the Irish Independent.

"A yawn is an inhalation of breath."

Hell, David Quinn claimed during Monday night's debate that there are 18,000 GPs in Ireland. There are 2,500.

It seems he was fooled by a reference to a 10 year-old Irish Times story that referenced "18,000 GPS location in Ireland".

https://twitter.com/sweetoblivion26/status/996285273137930240

Have you got any stats & maths for that Sid?

I calculated 1in4 for Eng&Wales in 2016 which is the latest figures.

And that factored in miscarriages, which are extremely difficult to factor in, not least because most of them occur before most abortions take place, and the age of the mother
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fact-check-does-one-in-every-five-pregnancies-in-england-end-in-abortion-1.3480584

QuoteFor England and Wales, figures from the Office of National Statistics say there were 692,271 live births and 3,112 stillbirths in 2016.

In that year, the UK Department of Health says 190,406 pregnancies were terminated. As a percentage of recorded pregnancies (live births + still births + abortions), one in five pregnancies, or 21 per cent, ends in an abortion.

Specifically for England, there were 663,157 live births and 2,895 still births. There were 177,350 terminations. That also equates to a rate of 21 per cent, or one in five.

In Scotland, the National Record of Scotland says there were 54,488 live births and 236 still births. In that year, 12,063 terminations were carried out. This allows us to calculate that 18 per cent of all pregnancies end in a termination, but remember this percentage is calculated without knowing how many pregnancies ended in a miscarriage.

In Northern Ireland, 24,076 live births and 13 terminations took place between April 2016 and March 2017. Figures for still births and miscarriages were not available.

The figures above combined suggest there were 976,865 pregnancies in the United Kingdom. A total of 202,482 of those resulted in the termination of the pregnancy, which equates to 20.73 per cent, which is one in five.

However, this figure cannot be relied upon as it does not include the number of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. The Office of National Statistics says it does not collate such figures but the NHS says one in six pregnancies in Britain ends in miscarriage.

There is also the added complication that the number of terminations carried out in the UK in 2016 were in relation to women who had travelled there for an abortion, including 3,265 from Ireland.

Therefore it is unclear if one in five pregnancies in England (or Britain) results in abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 18, 2018, 12:05:45 AM
One last quote from one of YOUR OWN links sid:

QuoteThe report finds about 56 million abortions occur every year — nearly 50 million of them in developing countries. About a quarter of all pregnancies end in abortion.

;D
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:09:08 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 18, 2018, 12:05:45 AM
One last quote from one of YOUR OWN links sid:

QuoteThe report finds about 56 million abortions occur every year — nearly 50 million of them in developing countries. About a quarter of all pregnancies end in abortion.

;D
I'm not sure what your point is here, and also not sure of the reason for the smiley?

In fact what you quote quite clearly proves what I said - that banning abortion is a proven failed policy worldwide.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:11:29 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

It was factually correct sid tbf. It's also factually correct to say that countries with higher use of suncream have higher rates of shark attacks. It would hardly be a worthwhile statement though.

You're on here whinging about facts but you have no problem being disingenuous yourself. Hypocrisy how are ya

I've tried to engage with you on genuine points but you seem to be too blinded by your zealotry to consider that it might not just be a one-sided story. I'll leave you to it
Is that a serious response? I guess not.

I'm pointing out relevant facts.

Banning abortion is a proven failed policy worldwide.

Shit....
I can't believe since civilization began we have never realized that once you introduce laws and make certain actions illegal it still happens...

Perhaps now we will have the chance to introduce some sort of law enforcement system to catch and stop people doing these actions and perhaps even introduce a judicial system were we can give those accused a fair chance of clearing their name or convicting them of committing that action
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:15:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:04:28 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 11:59:33 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:45:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 17, 2018, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 17, 2018, 10:40:07 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
I've just watched Prime Time and there's something I don't understand about the material they covered.

They looked at Portugal and how many abortions they had in 2008 and then how many over the next few years. They told us how many per pregnancy were aborted and then they told how many women of child-bearing age per thousand had abortions and more and more stats.

My question is, who is this type of information supposed to sway? It's anything but a black and white issue, but at the same time is anyone on this board going to be swayed either way by these numbers?

If you're against abortion then you're against one abortion, two abortions or ten thousand abortions. If you're pro-choice then you'll realise that there are currently, say for argument's sake, 2,000 Irish women having abortions per year. If you're told that this will double or treble in the next ten years, are you going to take the view that that's too many so you'll vote No instead?

Surely the decision is based on how you view life and how you view choice and not on a rising scale of abortions?

I also heard Simon Harris on the radio today fielding questions from "numerous listeners" who wanted to know if the money to pay for these abortions is going to come at the expense of other healthcare areas. People might actually vote based on how much this is going to cost?

Am I missing something here or is there a sizeable portion of the electorate that are thinking this way?

Good point I'm not at least

However this seemed to start from the yes side saying that the no side is making stuff up. Especially about the ratio of babies born v aborted. When in actual fact it seems to be higher in eng and Wales than the no side were actually saying. Seems like the yes side are crying foul when they have nothing to cry foul about.

And sorry to add fuel to the fire but Tbh I think it's all side of yes side tactic of trying to paint the no side as ignorant buffoons and to influence voters by guilt by association.

But you are right when it boils down to it this is a vote on the 99% of abortions that are carried out on healthy consensual pregnancies  which at the end of the day is a straight up choice between life of the child v choice of the mother

I think you are dead right.
This has shown me the yes side are well able to spout lies too however I'm inclined to vote yes I think when all is balanced up. I just hope the government put systems in place to properly support women thinking of having an abortion and present them with all options.

The No campaign have claimed that one in five pregnancies in the UK end in abortion.

Quotehttps://loveboth.ie/abortion-in-england-1-in-5/
In the UK, 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion

They've also claimed the 1 in 5 figure for England.

Neither can be true, because they are not counting miscarriages, which the NHS estimates at 1 in 6 pregnancies.

They would be correct if they were claiming the ratio of abortions to babies born was one in five.

But that's not what they were claiming.

They claimed all pregnancies.

And they were wrong.

I don't really see what real relevance any of this has, but if one side is going to claim something, the onus is on the side claiming that thing to make sure it's correct. In this case, it wasnt.

And that's been the general pattern of the No campaign - lies and fake statistics.

Still they're claiming that foetuses yawn. They don't.
Quotehttps://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/referendum-posters-depicting-a-foetus-yawning-are-not-factually-accurate-36868779.html

Anti-repeal posters depicting babies yawning and kicking at nine weeks are "not factually accurate" and are causing "extreme distress" among pregnant women, the master of Rotunda Maternity Hospital, Professor Fergal Malone, said yesterday.

The "idea of a foetus yawning is not factually accurate, because a foetus in the womb is under water and there is no air in the uterus", the professor told the Irish Independent.

"A yawn is an inhalation of breath."

Hell, David Quinn claimed during Monday night's debate that there are 18,000 GPs in Ireland. There are 2,500.

It seems he was fooled by a reference to a 10 year-old Irish Times story that referenced "18,000 GPS location in Ireland".

https://twitter.com/sweetoblivion26/status/996285273137930240

Have you got any stats & maths for that Sid?

I calculated 1in4 for Eng&Wales in 2016 which is the latest figures.

And that factored in miscarriages, which are extremely difficult to factor in, not least because most of them occur before most abortions take place, and the age of the mother
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fact-check-does-one-in-every-five-pregnancies-in-england-end-in-abortion-1.3480584

QuoteFor England and Wales, figures from the Office of National Statistics say there were 692,271 live births and 3,112 stillbirths in 2016.

In that year, the UK Department of Health says 190,406 pregnancies were terminated. As a percentage of recorded pregnancies (live births + still births + abortions), one in five pregnancies, or 21 per cent, ends in an abortion.

Specifically for England, there were 663,157 live births and 2,895 still births. There were 177,350 terminations. That also equates to a rate of 21 per cent, or one in five.

In Scotland, the National Record of Scotland says there were 54,488 live births and 236 still births. In that year, 12,063 terminations were carried out. This allows us to calculate that 18 per cent of all pregnancies end in a termination, but remember this percentage is calculated without knowing how many pregnancies ended in a miscarriage.

In Northern Ireland, 24,076 live births and 13 terminations took place between April 2016 and March 2017. Figures for still births and miscarriages were not available.

The figures above combined suggest there were 976,865 pregnancies in the United Kingdom. A total of 202,482 of those resulted in the termination of the pregnancy, which equates to 20.73 per cent, which is one in five.

However, this figure cannot be relied upon as it does not include the number of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. The Office of National Statistics says it does not collate such figures but the NHS says one in six pregnancies in Britain ends in miscarriage.

There is also the added complication that the number of terminations carried out in the UK in 2016 were in relation to women who had travelled there for an abortion, including 3,265 from Ireland.

Therefore it is unclear if one in five pregnancies in England (or Britain) results in abortion.

SO that's a No then I just posted my own calculation with miscarriages factored in (which is a complete minefield) for Eng &wales in 2016 and 1 in 4 seems about right
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:18:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:11:29 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

It was factually correct sid tbf. It's also factually correct to say that countries with higher use of suncream have higher rates of shark attacks. It would hardly be a worthwhile statement though.

You're on here whinging about facts but you have no problem being disingenuous yourself. Hypocrisy how are ya

I've tried to engage with you on genuine points but you seem to be too blinded by your zealotry to consider that it might not just be a one-sided story. I'll leave you to it
Is that a serious response? I guess not.

I'm pointing out relevant facts.

Banning abortion is a proven failed policy worldwide.

Shit....
I can't believe since civilization began we have never realized that once you introduce laws and make certain actions illegal it still happens...

Perhaps now we will have the chance to introduce some sort of law enforcement system to catch and stop people doing these actions and perhaps even introduce a judicial system were we can give those accused a fair chance of clearing their name or convicting them of committing that action
Delusion is a terrible thing. It's rife among the No side.

14 years in prison is the punishment on the statute books for carrying out an abortion in Ireland. How nice to know you want to see it enforced.

I thought the No side were all against that. I guess it turns out that's not the case.

Very reassuring for women, not.

That kind of attitude should do wonders in winning undecideds.

Maybe the No side should just borrow Mr. Trump's slogan and chant "lock her up". It worked wonders in the US, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work equally well in this campaign...
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:24:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:18:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:11:29 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

It was factually correct sid tbf. It's also factually correct to say that countries with higher use of suncream have higher rates of shark attacks. It would hardly be a worthwhile statement though.

You're on here whinging about facts but you have no problem being disingenuous yourself. Hypocrisy how are ya

I've tried to engage with you on genuine points but you seem to be too blinded by your zealotry to consider that it might not just be a one-sided story. I'll leave you to it
Is that a serious response? I guess not.

I'm pointing out relevant facts.

Banning abortion is a proven failed policy worldwide.

Shit....
I can't believe since civilization began we have never realized that once you introduce laws and make certain actions illegal it still happens...

Perhaps now we will have the chance to introduce some sort of law enforcement system to catch and stop people doing these actions and perhaps even introduce a judicial system were we can give those accused a fair chance of clearing their name or convicting them of committing that action
Delusion is a terrible thing. It's rife among the No side.

14 years in prison is the punishment on the statute books for carrying out an abortion in Ireland. How nice to know you want to see it enforced.

I thought the No side were all against that. I guess it turns out that's not the case.

Very reassuring for women, not.

That kind of attitude should do wonders in winning undecideds.

Maybe the No side should just borrow Mr. Trump's slogan and chant "lock her up". It worked wonders in the US, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work equally well in this campaign...

Quit goin on about the 14years thing, its the perfect either or fallacy which you have peddled in numerous time in this thread

How many woman have been convicted of it since the 8th was introduced?

You are delusional if you are proposing that it going to be the case
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:51:57 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:24:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:18:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:11:29 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 17, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 17, 2018, 11:39:21 AM
What I posted is the truth.

What you're doing is trying desperately to find something to claim otherwise in order to suit your agenda.

And here's the thing.

In a previous post, you admitted that what I posted is correct.

Now, you've backtracked and are trying to claim otherwise.

Why are you trying to claim what I've posted is "false data" when you previously admitted it is correct?

I hadn't read the links you posted Sid, I took what you were saying in good faith. For the record, I did not "admit" what you posted was correct, I simply said I did not dispute it (as I hadn't read up on it and it's not something I have much knowledge on). It was only when I took the time to look at the links that it appeared to me that you were being disingenuous.

I am not trying to claim anything, I'm simply posting up direct quotes from the links that YOU posted. You say that figures from the UK don't matter but it turns out that the facts you posted are related to Africa & Latin America. Those quotes are what those articles stated and yet it seems to me that you were misrepresenting what they said i.e. you were inferring a causal link between lower abortion rates and more liberal abortion laws when the data in those links don't actually back up that and instead point to wider availability to contraception as being the reason for lower abortion rates. What you said was factually correct (i.e. "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.") but the links you posted don't prove a relationship between the two.

So I'll ask you again, what is the relevance of your statement that "Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."?

So what I said was correct. Thanks.

And it's very relevant - worldwide trends are always relevant.

What the No side claim about UK abortion rates is cherry picking. And it's not even factually correct.

What relevance has incorrect information about one other country which has a different law to what will be in operation here if the 8th Amendment is abolished? Because that's what the No campaign is peddling.

It was factually correct sid tbf. It's also factually correct to say that countries with higher use of suncream have higher rates of shark attacks. It would hardly be a worthwhile statement though.

You're on here whinging about facts but you have no problem being disingenuous yourself. Hypocrisy how are ya

I've tried to engage with you on genuine points but you seem to be too blinded by your zealotry to consider that it might not just be a one-sided story. I'll leave you to it
Is that a serious response? I guess not.

I'm pointing out relevant facts.

Banning abortion is a proven failed policy worldwide.

Shit....
I can't believe since civilization began we have never realized that once you introduce laws and make certain actions illegal it still happens...

Perhaps now we will have the chance to introduce some sort of law enforcement system to catch and stop people doing these actions and perhaps even introduce a judicial system were we can give those accused a fair chance of clearing their name or convicting them of committing that action
Delusion is a terrible thing. It's rife among the No side.

14 years in prison is the punishment on the statute books for carrying out an abortion in Ireland. How nice to know you want to see it enforced.

I thought the No side were all against that. I guess it turns out that's not the case.

Very reassuring for women, not.

That kind of attitude should do wonders in winning undecideds.

Maybe the No side should just borrow Mr. Trump's slogan and chant "lock her up". It worked wonders in the US, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work equally well in this campaign...

Quit goin on about the 14years thing, its the perfect either or fallacy which you have peddled in numerous time in this thread

How many woman have been convicted of it since the 8th was introduced?

You are delusional if you are proposing that it going to be the case
You've just been going on about it.

The 14 years imprisonment being on the statute books is yet another aspect of the delusion surrounding this whole issue from the No side.

They say they don't want anybody imprisoned.

So, why not abolish it from the statute books entirely?

Why not say that the penalty for abortion should be 0 years and 0 days in prison?

ie. No punishment at all?

And let's just let women have abortions without any fear of punishment for anybody whatsoever.

That actually sounds quite sensible, when you think about it.

It's almost like it's exactly what the Yes side is campaigning for.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 18, 2018, 02:28:12 AM
Sid....ffs will go out canvessing like a good man. your doing more harm than good to the Yes argument ranting and raving in here like this
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 10:39:46 AM
So, everybody, are we agreed that the 14 year prison term on the statute books for abortion should be abolished?

And replaced with 0 years and 0 days?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
"Would you believe" team  did a good documentary last night on RTE 1:  "An Irish Solution".

Gave people on both sides of debate good time, mostly talking from experience rather than quoting facts and figures that everyone questions anyway.

For example they spoke with people dealing with FFA that had terminations and also those that went to term.  Spoke with parents (for and against) of people with Down Syndrome.

They examined Norway and it's experience of abortion as they thought laws were similar to Ireland.   Looked at how doctors, religious and women wrestle with aspects.   

I thought that if you are going to have abortion their model is much more sensitive (if that is right word) than UK for example.  They shun surgical abortion.  Women take tablets themselves rather than having medics administer drugs (Woman takes ownership).   After the event children are afforded baptism, funeral etc.  A lot of counselling before and after.  Public hospitals only, no private companies allowed.  Teenagers get free and confidential counselling, sex education and contraception in state run centres.    Also looked at societal issues around disability in Norway.

To me, looking for guidance in advance of the referendum it was 1,000 times better than Claire Byrne/Primetime shows.

As every the "Would you Believe" team excel.

/Jim.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 18, 2018, 11:11:10 AM
Yes 42%
No 39%
Undecided 19%
.
Leave out the Undecided and it's Yes by 51.8 to 48.2 so say 52/48.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:12:47 AM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
"Would you believe" team  did a good documentary last night on RTE 1:  "An Irish Solution".

Gave people on both sides of debate good time, mostly talking from experience rather than quoting facts and figures that everyone questions anyway.

For example they spoke with people dealing with FFA that had terminations and also those that went to term.  Spoke with parents (for and against) of people with Down Syndrome.

They examined Norway and it's experience of abortion as they thought laws were similar to Ireland.   Looked at how doctors, religious and women wrestle with aspects.   

I thought that if you are going to have abortion their model is much more sensitive (if that is right word) than UK for example.  They shun surgical abortion.  Women take tablets themselves rather than having medics administer drugs (Woman takes ownership).   After the event children are afforded baptism, funeral etc.  A lot of counselling before and after.  Public hospitals only, no private companies allowed.  Teenagers get free and confidential counselling, sex education and contraception in state run centres.    Also looked at societal issues around disability in Norway.

To me, looking for guidance in advance of the referendum it was 1,000 times better than Claire Byrne/Primetime shows.

As every the "Would you Believe" team excel.

/Jim.

I would have to say I would really struggle with that concept.

My sense would be that the vast majority of women contemplating an abortion would not regard the foetus as a human being. If the remains are being given a baptism and funeral, that suggests to me that the foetus is considered a child but the decision is being taken to kill it and then provide services to recognize that life! 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: stephenite on May 18, 2018, 11:23:05 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:12:47 AM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
"Would you believe" team  did a good documentary last night on RTE 1:  "An Irish Solution".

Gave people on both sides of debate good time, mostly talking from experience rather than quoting facts and figures that everyone questions anyway.

For example they spoke with people dealing with FFA that had terminations and also those that went to term.  Spoke with parents (for and against) of people with Down Syndrome.

They examined Norway and it's experience of abortion as they thought laws were similar to Ireland.   Looked at how doctors, religious and women wrestle with aspects.   

I thought that if you are going to have abortion their model is much more sensitive (if that is right word) than UK for example.  They shun surgical abortion.  Women take tablets themselves rather than having medics administer drugs (Woman takes ownership).   After the event children are afforded baptism, funeral etc.  A lot of counselling before and after.  Public hospitals only, no private companies allowed.  Teenagers get free and confidential counselling, sex education and contraception in state run centres.    Also looked at societal issues around disability in Norway.

To me, looking for guidance in advance of the referendum it was 1,000 times better than Claire Byrne/Primetime shows.

As every the "Would you Believe" team excel.

/Jim.

I would have to say I would really struggle with that concept.

My sense would be that the vast majority of women contemplating an abortion would not regard the foetus as a human being. If the remains are being given a baptism and funeral, that suggests to me that the foetus is considered a child but the decision is being taken to kill it and then provide services to recognize that life!

This post sums up a lot of why I find the entire debate depressing.

1. The assumption that it is only the woman who could/would contemplate an abortion.
2. Assumption that said decision infers SHE would not regard the foetus as a human being.
3. Regardless of above, that if the decision is taken point 2 is invalid one way or the other.

Knuckle dragging ape
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
Very decent of you - thanks for the personal attack my friend.

Quote from: stephenite on May 18, 2018, 11:23:05 AM

This post sums up a lot of why I find the entire debate depressing.

1. The assumption that it is only the woman who could/would contemplate an abortion.
2. Assumption that said decision infers SHE would not regard the foetus as a human being.
3. Regardless of above, that if the decision is taken point 2 is invalid one way or the other.

Knuckle dragging ape

I'll hold my hands up on point 1 - absolutely, it could be a man who would heavily influence the decision.

You have chosen to separate points 2 and 3 and the argument I'm making is that they are inextricably linked.

And yes, I accept that this scenario can happen - I'm saying that I struggle with the notion that a foetus / child can be killed and then offered a Christian service.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 18, 2018, 11:47:57 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
Very decent of you - thanks for the personal attack my friend.

Quote from: stephenite on May 18, 2018, 11:23:05 AM

This post sums up a lot of why I find the entire debate depressing.

1. The assumption that it is only the woman who could/would contemplate an abortion.
2. Assumption that said decision infers SHE would not regard the foetus as a human being.
3. Regardless of above, that if the decision is taken point 2 is invalid one way or the other.

Knuckle dragging ape

I'll hold my hands up on point 1 - absolutely, it could be a man who would heavily influence the decision.

You have chosen to separate points 2 and 3 and the argument I'm making is that they are inextricably linked.

And yes, I accept that this scenario can happen - I'm saying that I struggle with the notion that a foetus / child can be killed and then offered a Christian service.

I understand what you are saying Rufus, but I think it's offered, and I imagine availed of, in scenarios where there are fatal foetal abnormalities. In that case, it wouldn't be contradictory, it would just be happening earlier than it would happen if the pregnancy wasn't terminated.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
I'm saying that I struggle with the notion that a foetus / child can be killed and then offered a Christian service.

I think that what Norwegian system conveys is that, to them as a society abortion is a necessary evil.  However, the doctors interviewed conveyed that it was not something they were entirely comfortable with.  The whole treatment with chaplin and acknowledgement of the baby (especially later term babies) is a reflection of the fact that this is a serious and moral matter.   It's a case that abortion is legal but not taken lightly.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
I'm saying that I struggle with the notion that a foetus / child can be killed and then offered a Christian service.

I think that what Norwegian system conveys is that, to them as a society abortion is a necessary evil.  However, the doctors interviewed conveyed that it was not something they were entirely comfortable with.  The whole treatment with chaplin and acknowledgement of the baby (especially later term babies) is a reflection of the fact that this is a serious and moral matter.   It's a case that abortion is legal but not taken lightly.

/Jim.

Good points Jim. There is no perfect solution. I'm voting Yes as I believe what's on the table is the (much) lesser of two evils. I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion"....in fact the notion is patently ridiculous. I've just listened to a "debate" on OceanFM radio where the wonderful Declan Ganley (in between waffling and ignoring every question he was asked) maintained several times it is a simple black and white choice - you're either for abortion or against it. Anyone with any level of intelligence knows it's not black and white. So the constitution is not the place to deal with the issue. Legislation is and for those who "don't trust" politicians - listen to this....The citizens assembly proposed a more liberal 22 weeks but it was the Oireachtas committee that reduced the limit to the proposed 12 weeks. And I've outlines time and again here why that's a common sense approach to deal with the realities of what's happening today.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 18, 2018, 12:08:19 PM
What will happen in the instance that a woman presents at say 11 weeks, has the 72h waiting period and then maybe can't get a hospital apt for 2 weeks. Would the abortion be allowed or not? Or would it be prioritised by the hospital? Or sent to a private clinic?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 18, 2018, 12:08:19 PM
What will happen in the instance that a woman presents at say 11 weeks, has the 72h waiting period and then maybe can't get a hospital apt for 2 weeks. Would the abortion be allowed or not? Or would it be prioritised by the hospital? Or sent to a private clinic?

I don't know. I'd hope if these provisions come in that there would be efficient procedures and resources to avoid this scenario. In any event I don't think the hypothetical woman in this case should be punished for a systems failure - do you? We've had enough women punished by our health system failing over the years.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:22:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
I'm saying that I struggle with the notion that a foetus / child can be killed and then offered a Christian service.

I think that what Norwegian system conveys is that, to them as a society abortion is a necessary evil.  However, the doctors interviewed conveyed that it was not something they were entirely comfortable with.  The whole treatment with chaplin and acknowledgement of the baby (especially later term babies) is a reflection of the fact that this is a serious and moral matter.   It's a case that abortion is legal but not taken lightly.

/Jim.

Good points Jim. There is no perfect solution. I'm voting Yes as I believe what's on the table is the (much) lesser of two evils. I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion"....in fact the notion is patently ridiculous. I've just listened to a "debate" on OceanFM radio where the wonderful Declan Ganley (in between waffling and ignoring every question he was asked) maintained several times it is a simple black and white choice - you're either for abortion or against it. Anyone with any level of intelligence knows it's not black and white. So the constitution is not the place to deal with the issue. Legislation is and for those who "don't trust" politicians - listen to this....The citizens assembly proposed a more liberal 22 weeks but it was the Oireachtas committee that reduced the limit to the proposed 12 weeks. And I've outlines time and again here why that's a common sense approach to deal with the realities of what's happening today.

There's a real similarity here between hard Brexit and the 8th Amendment.

Both are deeply simplistic, black and white, deluded, utterly unworkable ideas which hark back to the 1940s, and to which the concept of nuance is an affront.

Supporters of both simply do not understand you cannot turn the clock back to a previous time.

And the supporters of both hard Brexit and the 8th Amendment don't give a flying sheet about the real consequences for Irish people.

194,000 more people voted to give Irish women the explicit right to have an abortion in 1992 than voted for the 8th Amendment in 1983.

That is irrefutable proof that the deepest hypocrisy existed and still exists about Irish people's attitude to abortion.

The dirty little secret the No campaign has is that the 8th Amendment relies for its existence on Britiain's abortion laws.

If, hypothetically, Britain banned abortion tomorrow morning, No campaigners in Ireland would be fuming, because they would no longer have the safety valve that is necessary to indulge their delusion that abortion doesn't happen in Ireland.

To put it another way, the 8th Amendment is umbilically tied to Britain's abortion laws, which offer it protection like a foetus is protected by a mother's womb.

To survive, the 8th Amendment needs legalised abortion in Britain.

The 8th Amendment is fundamentally about delusion, illusion and cowardice - the delusion of the idea of Holy Catlick Oireland which was built up in opposition to Cruel, Godless England, the illusion that abortion isn't happening in Ireland, and the cowardice of abandoning the women who live in this state who feel they need an abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.
Prof Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran, author of the independent report into Savita's death:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/medic-savita-died-as-result-of-abortion-laws-461173.html

"It was very clear the things holding the hands of physicians was the legal issue. Anybody, any junior doctor, would have said this is a sepsis condition, we must terminate.

"She did have sepsis. However, if she had a termination in the first days as requested, she would not have had sepsis. We would never have heard of her and she would be alive today."
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 18, 2018, 12:39:48 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 18, 2018, 12:08:19 PM
What will happen in the instance that a woman presents at say 11 weeks, has the 72h waiting period and then maybe can't get a hospital apt for 2 weeks. Would the abortion be allowed or not? Or would it be prioritised by the hospital? Or sent to a private clinic?

I don't know. I'd hope if these provisions come in that there would be efficient procedures and resources to avoid this scenario. In any event I don't think the hypothetical woman in this case should be punished for a systems failure - do you? We've had enough women punished by our health system failing over the years.

I'm not saying anyone should be punished but this type of thing will surely arise and there'll be uproar if it's decided on a ad-hoc basis one way or the other.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.

Cant let this go either. A huge number of prominent consultants have came out and clearly explained the doctors in this case fucked up, nothing in the 8th amendment should have caused the death of SH.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.

Cant let this go either. A huge number of prominent consultants have came out and clearly explained the doctors in this case fucked up, nothing in the 8th amendment should have caused the death of SH.

Name and quote them and please indicate the level of access and knowledge they have about this case.

The official report is above. You wish to refute it so you'll need to do better than what you've said.

Even if you're right, it shows there is at best confusion among highly paid and educated professionals about the 8th amendment which is leading to improper treatment of women.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hound on May 18, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:22:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
I'm saying that I struggle with the notion that a foetus / child can be killed and then offered a Christian service.

I think that what Norwegian system conveys is that, to them as a society abortion is a necessary evil.  However, the doctors interviewed conveyed that it was not something they were entirely comfortable with.  The whole treatment with chaplin and acknowledgement of the baby (especially later term babies) is a reflection of the fact that this is a serious and moral matter.   It's a case that abortion is legal but not taken lightly.

/Jim.

Good points Jim. There is no perfect solution. I'm voting Yes as I believe what's on the table is the (much) lesser of two evils. I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion"....in fact the notion is patently ridiculous. I've just listened to a "debate" on OceanFM radio where the wonderful Declan Ganley (in between waffling and ignoring every question he was asked) maintained several times it is a simple black and white choice - you're either for abortion or against it. Anyone with any level of intelligence knows it's not black and white. So the constitution is not the place to deal with the issue. Legislation is and for those who "don't trust" politicians - listen to this....The citizens assembly proposed a more liberal 22 weeks but it was the Oireachtas committee that reduced the limit to the proposed 12 weeks. And I've outlines time and again here why that's a common sense approach to deal with the realities of what's happening today.

There's a real similarity here between hard Brexit and the 8th Amendment.

Both are deeply simplistic, black and white, deluded, utterly unworkable ideas which hark back to the 1940s, and to which the concept of nuance is an affront.

Supporters of both simply do not understand you cannot turn the clock back to a previous time.

And the supporters of both hard Brexit and the 8th Amendment don't give a flying sheet about the real consequences for Irish people.

194,000 more people voted to give Irish women the explicit right to have an abortion in 1992 than voted for the 8th Amendment in 1983.

That is irrefutable proof that the deepest hypocrisy existed and still exists about Irish people's attitude to abortion.

The dirty little secret the No campaign has is that the 8th Amendment relies for its existence on Britiain's abortion laws.

If, hypothetically, Britain banned abortion tomorrow morning, No campaigners in Ireland would be fuming, because they would no longer have the safety valve that is necessary to indulge their delusion that abortion doesn't happen in Ireland.

To put it another way, the 8th Amendment is umbilically tied to Britain's abortion laws, which offer it protection like a foetus is protected by a mother's womb.

To survive, the 8th Amendment needs legalised abortion in Britain.

The 8th Amendment is fundamentally about delusion, illusion and cowardice - the delusion of the idea of Holy Catlick Oireland which was built up in opposition to Cruel, Godless England, the illusion that abortion isn't happening in Ireland, and the cowardice of abandoning the women who live in this state who feel they need an abortion.
Christonabike, you're the worst debater I've ever come across. You do exactly what you accuse the No campaigners of, and for all your plethora of posts, you would have convinced not a single person who was undecided to vote Yes. Just like the opposite headcases on the No side you give out about would have convinced nobody to vote No. 

The stuff about the No campaign being upset if the UK banned abortion is absolute and utter nonsense. Most people on the No side are just not comfortable with blanket abortions up to 12 weeks. So I'm sure they would be delighted if UK banned it. People wanting abortions would presumably go to Iceland or Italy or somewhere else.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 01:18:23 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.

Cant let this go either. A huge number of prominent consultants have came out and clearly explained the doctors in this case fucked up, nothing in the 8th amendment should have caused the death of SH.

Let's be quite clear on this. Any doctors who say that the 8th Amendment played no role in Savita's death are lying.

Any doctors who say that the 8th Amendment does not prevent women getting essential healthcare that they need and should have a right to, are lying.

Categorically lying.

We know this, because for every doctor that says it, there are numerous women who have stories that categorically disprove it.

And for those doctors to be correct, every single story from every woman would have to be a lie.

Does anybody in their right mind think every single one of these stories from women is a lie?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 01:22:50 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 18, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 12:22:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 18, 2018, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 18, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
I'm saying that I struggle with the notion that a foetus / child can be killed and then offered a Christian service.

I think that what Norwegian system conveys is that, to them as a society abortion is a necessary evil.  However, the doctors interviewed conveyed that it was not something they were entirely comfortable with.  The whole treatment with chaplin and acknowledgement of the baby (especially later term babies) is a reflection of the fact that this is a serious and moral matter.   It's a case that abortion is legal but not taken lightly.

/Jim.

Good points Jim. There is no perfect solution. I'm voting Yes as I believe what's on the table is the (much) lesser of two evils. I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion"....in fact the notion is patently ridiculous. I've just listened to a "debate" on OceanFM radio where the wonderful Declan Ganley (in between waffling and ignoring every question he was asked) maintained several times it is a simple black and white choice - you're either for abortion or against it. Anyone with any level of intelligence knows it's not black and white. So the constitution is not the place to deal with the issue. Legislation is and for those who "don't trust" politicians - listen to this....The citizens assembly proposed a more liberal 22 weeks but it was the Oireachtas committee that reduced the limit to the proposed 12 weeks. And I've outlines time and again here why that's a common sense approach to deal with the realities of what's happening today.

There's a real similarity here between hard Brexit and the 8th Amendment.

Both are deeply simplistic, black and white, deluded, utterly unworkable ideas which hark back to the 1940s, and to which the concept of nuance is an affront.

Supporters of both simply do not understand you cannot turn the clock back to a previous time.

And the supporters of both hard Brexit and the 8th Amendment don't give a flying sheet about the real consequences for Irish people.

194,000 more people voted to give Irish women the explicit right to have an abortion in 1992 than voted for the 8th Amendment in 1983.

That is irrefutable proof that the deepest hypocrisy existed and still exists about Irish people's attitude to abortion.

The dirty little secret the No campaign has is that the 8th Amendment relies for its existence on Britiain's abortion laws.

If, hypothetically, Britain banned abortion tomorrow morning, No campaigners in Ireland would be fuming, because they would no longer have the safety valve that is necessary to indulge their delusion that abortion doesn't happen in Ireland.

To put it another way, the 8th Amendment is umbilically tied to Britain's abortion laws, which offer it protection like a foetus is protected by a mother's womb.

To survive, the 8th Amendment needs legalised abortion in Britain.

The 8th Amendment is fundamentally about delusion, illusion and cowardice - the delusion of the idea of Holy Catlick Oireland which was built up in opposition to Cruel, Godless England, the illusion that abortion isn't happening in Ireland, and the cowardice of abandoning the women who live in this state who feel they need an abortion.
Christonabike, you're the worst debater I've ever come across. You do exactly what you accuse the No campaigners of, and for all your plethora of posts, you would have convinced not a single person who was undecided to vote Yes. Just like the opposite headcases on the No side you give out about would have convinced nobody to vote No. 

The stuff about the No campaign being upset if the UK banned abortion is absolute and utter nonsense. Most people on the No side are just not comfortable with blanket abortions up to 12 weeks. So I'm sure they would be delighted if UK banned it. People wanting abortions would presumably go to Iceland or Italy or somewhere else.

"You're the worst debater I've ever come cross"
"headcase"

Oh, the irony.

I don't see much "respect" there. And not much debate either.

I'm not posting here to persuade people. I'm posting here to tell people the truth.

It's up to individuals to decide if they're on the side of the truth or on the side of bullshit.

If anybody is persuaded by the truth, then great - if they want to continue to believe in bullshit - well, that's their choice.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hound on May 18, 2018, 01:29:42 PM
Almost certainly decided that I'm voting Yes, although not with any comfort.

I'm against abortion in principal, but willing to have some access to it in certain circumstances.
I would be absolutely dead against a late term abortion of a baby, FFA apart, and certainly whether the father was a rapist or not would not change my view that aborting such a baby/foetus would be akin to murder. For me that's from week 24 on.

I'd be absolutely in favour of easy access to a morning after pill to prevent a pregnancy (I haven't looked into this, but presumably there are good reasons why women don't have a jar of these in their medical compartment ready to take if required?) or other pills that would dissolve the cells that formed a zygote within a week or so of pregnancy.

My problem is where do I draw the line between Week 1 and Week 24. When does "it" become a baby?

Based on my own personal experiences, I think Week 12 is a reasonable pragmatic limit that I can l live with.  I've had friends and family who have had miscarriages, and abortions in England, at around that time (four in total). And while it was always a difficult and sometimes traumatic experience for both the men and the women (although particularly the women of course), there was no sense of mourning a death.

I can get my head around believing that the zygote/foetus is not turned into a baby before 12 weeks, so a termination for any reason is nothing more than a medical procedure that ends a pregnancy. And I don't believe politicians would work to increase that limit willy nilly. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.

Cant let this go either. A huge number of prominent consultants have came out and clearly explained the doctors in this case fucked up, nothing in the 8th amendment should have caused the death of SH.

Name and quote them and please indicate the level of access and knowledge they have about this case.

The official report is above. You wish to refute it so you'll need to do better than what you've said.

Even if you're right, it shows there is at best confusion among highly paid and educated professionals about the 8th amendment which is leading to improper treatment of women.

I wouldn't expect much, Rudi appears to be quite fond of posting manufactured facts and figures without anything backing it up. Still waiting to hear about a source for the youngest person in Iceland with Down's Syndrome being 20.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:04:06 AM
Here's my own calcs on that

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:41:10 AM
So I did a bit of my own research and maths on this...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2016

2016
England and Wales births: 696 271
E&W abortions: 185 596

That works out at 1 in 3.75

Now the miscarriage question is a complicated one, for a start it varies hugely on gestational age and a whole range of other factors for the baby and mother.

https://expectingscience.com/2015/08/26/lies-damned-lies-and-miscarriage-statistics/

The first 5/6 weeks the risk is very high and it will likely skew the overall figure, so perhaps that is where the 1 in 6 comes from. However at 6 weeks the fetus seems to average a 10% (1 in 10) chance of miscarriage and tapering off to 5% (1 in 20) at 8 weeks and further decrease as the pregnancy progresses.
Most abortions are carried out between 5-10 weeks when it seems the risk is for the sake of argument probably around 1 in 10. Its likely less but if someone wants to do the math tear away, and also the mothers age of abortions is lower which would mean they are more likely to survive and not to mention the repeat miscarriages from mother who want to have a successful pregnancy. I think it is likely more like 1 in 15 but we will go with the 1 in 10 as a safety factor.

So working that 1 in 10 into the original stats it works out at  1 in 4.16.

I open to corrections of course but all in all the 1 in 4 doesn't look like a gross exaggeration that its depicted.

This is also only one year of course but if someone wants to do a few more years be my guest

Your calcs are wrong. Whether deliberately and disingenuously so, only you can clarify.

You've divided the number of abortions into the number of births, rather than the number of total pregnancies (the sum of the two). Even ignoring miscarriages (which further lowers the stat), it becomes 1 in 4.75 rather than 1 in 3.75 as you claim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 03:48:30 PM


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/amendment-limiting-abortion-to-rape-cases-unworkable-say-former-ags-1.3495785

QuoteAn alternative amendment to the Constitution that would deal with abortion in cases of rape and incest would be unworkable, two former attorneys general and an ex-Supreme Court judge have said.

John Rogers SC, Michael McDowell SC and Ms Justice Catherine McGuinness said so-called "hard cases" can be dealt only by repealing the Eighth Amendment, which gives equal right to life to the mother and the unborn.

Mr McDowell also said that if the Amendment is not repealed in the referendum on May 25th, people who purchase abortion pills are liable to be prosecuted.

"People will commit offences and they will be liable to be criminally punished," he said, adding that a girl could be sent "before a court because she has availed of the abortion pill".

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/unborn-protected-if-eighth-repealed-468082.html

Quote

Unborn children will still be protected in Irish law even if the Eighth Amendment is repealed, the Cabinet has been told.

Attorney General Seamus Woulfe confirmed the situation at yesterday's meeting in response to concerns from ministers opposed to plans to allow abortion up to the 12th week of pregnancy and claims the that unborn will have no rights under the new rules.

In a briefing to ministers as Cabinet signed off on the referendum bill and the official "repeal and enable legislation" referendum question wording, he said the "common good" protection still applied.

While confirming the Supreme Court's decision on Wednesday that the right to life for the unborn does not extend to other rights, the attorney general said section 10.63 of the court's judgment said the unborn child is neither constitutionally nor "legally invisible".

The State is entitled to take account of the respect which is due to human life as a factor which may be taken into account as an aspect of the common good in legislating, Mr Woulfe is understood to have said.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:23:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 12:04:06 AM
Here's my own calcs on that

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 05, 2018, 08:41:10 AM
So I did a bit of my own research and maths on this...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2016

2016
England and Wales births: 696 271
E&W abortions: 185 596

That works out at 1 in 3.75

Now the miscarriage question is a complicated one, for a start it varies hugely on gestational age and a whole range of other factors for the baby and mother.

https://expectingscience.com/2015/08/26/lies-damned-lies-and-miscarriage-statistics/

The first 5/6 weeks the risk is very high and it will likely skew the overall figure, so perhaps that is where the 1 in 6 comes from. However at 6 weeks the fetus seems to average a 10% (1 in 10) chance of miscarriage and tapering off to 5% (1 in 20) at 8 weeks and further decrease as the pregnancy progresses.
Most abortions are carried out between 5-10 weeks when it seems the risk is for the sake of argument probably around 1 in 10. Its likely less but if someone wants to do the math tear away, and also the mothers age of abortions is lower which would mean they are more likely to survive and not to mention the repeat miscarriages from mother who want to have a successful pregnancy. I think it is likely more like 1 in 15 but we will go with the 1 in 10 as a safety factor.

So working that 1 in 10 into the original stats it works out at  1 in 4.16.

I open to corrections of course but all in all the 1 in 4 doesn't look like a gross exaggeration that its depicted.

This is also only one year of course but if someone wants to do a few more years be my guest

Your calcs are wrong. Whether deliberately and disingenuously so, only you can clarify.

You've divided the number of abortions into the number of births, rather than the number of total pregnancies (the sum of the two). Even ignoring miscarriages (which further lowers the stat), it becomes 1 in 4.75 rather than 1 in 3.75 as you claim.

Disingenuously and deliberately? I think that either way your implying that it wasn't a genuine mistake which it was, do you really think I would I have been as open as I was about corrections if I was putting in a deliberate mistake.
 
But yes elementary error there, so lets get it corrected, I also spotted another error in my calculations for factoring in the miscarriages. They should be factored onto miscarriages only not the births.
Which would leaves the abortions at 168723 using my conservative 1in 10 ratio.
This leaves us at 1 in 5.12...
If anyone wants to dispute this please do so.

Also just for the record to get it up to 1 in 5.5  well that would mean that 1 in 5 pregnancies end in miscarriage, which is seriously pushing it. To get the ration to 1 in 5.0 then the miscarriage rate would be 1 in 16 which is probably not unreasonable considering all the risk factors I would be fairly confident in saying that the correct number lies between 1 in 5 and 1 in 5.5, most likely low 5s.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 18, 2018, 04:25:57 PM
You're suddenly a miscarriage percentage expert now too?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 18, 2018, 04:29:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 18, 2018, 04:25:57 PM
You're suddenly a miscarriage percentage expert now too?

lol This post should be framed.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 04:42:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:23:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
Your calcs are wrong. Whether deliberately and disingenuously so, only you can clarify.

You've divided the number of abortions into the number of births, rather than the number of total pregnancies (the sum of the two). Even ignoring miscarriages (which further lowers the stat), it becomes 1 in 4.75 rather than 1 in 3.75 as you claim.

Disingenuously and deliberately? I think that either way your implying that it wasn't a genuine mistake which it was, do you really think I would I have been as open as I was about corrections if I was putting in a deliberate mistake.


Very touchy given I didn't have a dig at you at all.

The reason I thought it might have been done deliberately or disingenuously (happy to hear you deny it and admit the mistake instead) was because we're talking about a mistake in basic arithmetic that my 11 year old niece in primary school wouldn't have made.

(See now, that was a dig)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 04:45:55 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.

Cant let this go either. A huge number of prominent consultants have came out and clearly explained the doctors in this case fucked up, nothing in the 8th amendment should have caused the death of SH.

Name and quote them and please indicate the level of access and knowledge they have about this case.

The official report is above. You wish to refute it so you'll need to do better than what you've said.

Even if you're right, it shows there is at best confusion among highly paid and educated professionals about the 8th amendment which is leading to improper treatment of women.

I wouldn't expect much, Rudi appears to be quite fond of posting manufactured facts and figures without anything backing it up. Still waiting to hear about a source for the youngest person in Iceland with Down's Syndrome being 20.

I read it heard it on the six one news various sources. I don't have time to post links. More over I don't need to justify myself or any quote to you.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:47:21 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 04:42:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:23:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
Your calcs are wrong. Whether deliberately and disingenuously so, only you can clarify.

You've divided the number of abortions into the number of births, rather than the number of total pregnancies (the sum of the two). Even ignoring miscarriages (which further lowers the stat), it becomes 1 in 4.75 rather than 1 in 3.75 as you claim.

Disingenuously and deliberately? I think that either way your implying that it wasn't a genuine mistake which it was, do you really think I would I have been as open as I was about corrections if I was putting in a deliberate mistake.


Very touchy given I didn't have a dig at you at all.

The reason I thought it might have been done deliberately or disingenuously (happy to hear you deny it and admit the mistake instead) was because we're talking about a mistake in basic arithmetic that my 11 year old niece in primary school wouldn't have made.

(See now, that was a dig)

Nothing to add to the stats then?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 04:49:29 PM
So you've no evidence to back it up at? Thanks for the clarification.

As for having to justify yourself to me, no of course you don't. But if you want to engage in a debate and pontificate about statistics rather than say, be an absolute prat, then yes, you do have to back up any assertions you make with evidence.

I'll actually just save you all the trouble - you're a liar.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: mrdeeds on May 18, 2018, 04:51:10 PM
Got a leaflet in letterbox today from no side with Cristiano Ronaldo's picture on it saying he wouldn't exist if abortion was an option.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 10:39:46 AM
So, everybody, are we agreed that the 14 year prison term on the statute books for abortion should be abolished?

And replaced with 0 years and 0 days?

No... for a repeat offender getting an abortion at 38 weeks to spite the husband 14years seems sort of light
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:47:21 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 04:42:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:23:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
Your calcs are wrong. Whether deliberately and disingenuously so, only you can clarify.

You've divided the number of abortions into the number of births, rather than the number of total pregnancies (the sum of the two). Even ignoring miscarriages (which further lowers the stat), it becomes 1 in 4.75 rather than 1 in 3.75 as you claim.

Disingenuously and deliberately? I think that either way your implying that it wasn't a genuine mistake which it was, do you really think I would I have been as open as I was about corrections if I was putting in a deliberate mistake.


Very touchy given I didn't have a dig at you at all.

The reason I thought it might have been done deliberately or disingenuously (happy to hear you deny it and admit the mistake instead) was because we're talking about a mistake in basic arithmetic that my 11 year old niece in primary school wouldn't have made.

(See now, that was a dig)

Nothing to add to the stats then?

Well no, I'm not sure what you want me add? I corrected yours, remember?

As for factoring in miscarriages, the logic to the arithmetic is the same. Total pregnancies = births + miscarriages + abortions. I don't know where you get miscarriages should be factored into abortions. The number of abortions is known and doesn't change. If you use the 1 in 10 pregnancies ending in miscarriage as you suggest, it works out that 1 in 5.16 pregnancies is aborted.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 18, 2018, 05:02:34 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 18, 2018, 04:51:10 PM
Got a leaflet in letterbox today from no side with Cristiano Ronaldo's picture on it saying he wouldn't exist if abortion was an option.
The Real Supporters for Life group?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 18, 2018, 05:02:41 PM
Dont know how many of you were around during the 80s, but there was a great late night TV Political show called NightHawks......Nell McCafferty was a frequent contributor.  Found this clip online of her current views.....very interesting

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T_qiTwhsbEk
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 05:05:26 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:47:21 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 04:42:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 04:23:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
Your calcs are wrong. Whether deliberately and disingenuously so, only you can clarify.

You've divided the number of abortions into the number of births, rather than the number of total pregnancies (the sum of the two). Even ignoring miscarriages (which further lowers the stat), it becomes 1 in 4.75 rather than 1 in 3.75 as you claim.

Disingenuously and deliberately? I think that either way your implying that it wasn't a genuine mistake which it was, do you really think I would I have been as open as I was about corrections if I was putting in a deliberate mistake.


Very touchy given I didn't have a dig at you at all.

The reason I thought it might have been done deliberately or disingenuously (happy to hear you deny it and admit the mistake instead) was because we're talking about a mistake in basic arithmetic that my 11 year old niece in primary school wouldn't have made.

(See now, that was a dig)

Nothing to add to the stats then?

Well no, I'm not sure what you want me add? I corrected yours, remember?

As for factoring in miscarriages, the logic to the arithmetic is the same. Total pregnancies = births + miscarriages + abortions. I don't know where you get miscarriages should be factored into abortions. The number of abortions is known and doesn't change. If you use the 1 in 10 pregnancies ending in miscarriage as you suggest, it works out that 1 in 5.16 pregnancies is aborted.

Just you seemed more concerned with playing the man

Its factored into the abortions as some of them would end in miscarriages, a birth isn't a miscarriage.

But you agree then that the number is at least in the very low 5s. This is the number you have been disputing all along..so were they right?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: mrdeeds on May 18, 2018, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 18, 2018, 05:02:34 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 18, 2018, 04:51:10 PM
Got a leaflet in letterbox today from no side with Cristiano Ronaldo's picture on it saying he wouldn't exist if abortion was an option.
The Real Supporters for Life group?

Don't know but it looked at bit Messi to me.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
When did I dispute anything? The only thing I did was correct your "stats".

Miscarriages are not factored into abortions. A miscarriage is a miscarriage. Nobody is saying a miscarriage is a birth so don't know why you're pointing that out.

Rate of abortions is the number of abortions out of total pregnancies. The number of abortions is known, and fixed. The number of births is known, and fixed. What is not known is the number of miscarriages. Total pregnancies is simply births + miscarriages + abortions. This is simple arithmetic.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 05:20:00 PM
Oh and one final free one for you. If the miscarriage rate is 1 in 5, that would put abortion at 1 in 6.46 pregnancies.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 05:32:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
When did I dispute anything? The only thing I did was correct your "stats".

Miscarriages are not factored into abortions. A miscarriage is a miscarriage. Nobody is saying a miscarriage is a birth so don't know why you're pointing that out.

Rate of abortions is the number of abortions out of total pregnancies. The number of abortions is known, and fixed. The number of births is known, and fixed. What is not known is the number of miscarriages. Total pregnancies is simply births + miscarriages + abortions. This is simple arithmetic.


No its not because the ratio is total births v total abortions.

The births already have miscarriages factored out the abortions do not. Therefore the miscarriage rate is only factored into abortion


You said that the 1in5 stat claimed by the No campaign was wrong.
And by the way that's the abortion :  birth ratio by the way not the miscarriage ratio.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 05:32:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
When did I dispute anything? The only thing I did was correct your "stats".

Miscarriages are not factored into abortions. A miscarriage is a miscarriage. Nobody is saying a miscarriage is a birth so don't know why you're pointing that out.

Rate of abortions is the number of abortions out of total pregnancies. The number of abortions is known, and fixed. The number of births is known, and fixed. What is not known is the number of miscarriages. Total pregnancies is simply births + miscarriages + abortions. This is simple arithmetic.


No its not because the ratio is total births v total abortions.

The births already have miscarriages factored out the abortions do not. Therefore the miscarriage rate is only factored into abortion


You said that the 1in5 stat claimed by the No campaign was wrong.
And by the way that's the abortion :  birth ratio by the way not the miscarriage ratio.

a) show me, precisely, where I ever said anything of the sort.

b) the ratio is abortions to pregnancies.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 05:49:23 PM
If anybody knows the score about the shameful attitude to women's health that prevailed and still prevails in Ireland, it's Vicky Phelan:

https://twitter.com/PhelanVicky/status/997104227418890240

I am voting Yes for the women of Ireland who have been let down by our health service and by our government time and time again. If we really want women to be placed at the centre of their own care, Vote Yes to allow us to make the choice about our own care #WhoNeedsYourYes
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 18, 2018, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 05:49:23 PM
If anybody knows the score about the shameful attitude to women's health that prevailed and still prevails in Ireland, it's Vicky Phelan:

https://twitter.com/PhelanVicky/status/997104227418890240

I am voting Yes for the women of Ireland who have been let down by our health service and by our government time and time again. If we really want women to be placed at the centre of their own care, Vote Yes to allow us to make the choice about our own care #WhoNeedsYourYes

This is a spurious connection. The failure of screening could have affected any screening programme, including one for men only.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 07:36:12 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 05:32:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
When did I dispute anything? The only thing I did was correct your "stats".

Miscarriages are not factored into abortions. A miscarriage is a miscarriage. Nobody is saying a miscarriage is a birth so don't know why you're pointing that out.

Rate of abortions is the number of abortions out of total pregnancies. The number of abortions is known, and fixed. The number of births is known, and fixed. What is not known is the number of miscarriages. Total pregnancies is simply births + miscarriages + abortions. This is simple arithmetic.


No its not because the ratio is total births v total abortions.

The births already have miscarriages factored out the abortions do not. Therefore the miscarriage rate is only factored into abortion


You said that the 1in5 stat claimed by the No campaign was wrong.
And by the way that's the abortion :  birth ratio by the way not the miscarriage ratio.

a) show me, precisely, where I ever said anything of the sort.

b) the ratio is abortions to pregnancies.

I pretty sure you said it maybe you didnt if someone wants to trawl thru your posts again to find it they are welcome to. But a good few others have claimed it is BS when it does not appear to be


Anyway the ratio is the no. abortions to (likely) successful pregnancies The aim of the stat is to give an idea of how many extra babies would have been born had they not been aborted

This is:
(number of babies born) + (number of babies aborted - the number of pregnancies that likely would have ended in miscarriage)
vs
(number of babies aborted - the number of pregnancies that likely would have ended in miscarriage)

The number of babies born already has went through the miscarriage factor by having actual miscarriages therefore you can't factor it back into that number again so it will skew the results.


Anyway looks like round about 1 in 5 it is then. Not that it matters to me or you whether it is 1 in 2 or 1 in 20 we are going to believe what we are going to believe as you believe choice usurps life while I am the reverse.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 07:51:49 PM
You are wrong. Your "calculations" were wrong. You don't know what you're on about.

As for:

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 07:36:12 PM

I pretty sure you said it maybe you didnt if someone wants to trawl thru your posts again to find it they are welcome to. But a good few others have claimed it is BS when it does not appear to be

You have already claimed that "I said" the 1 in 5 stat is wrong. Now you're "pretty sure" I said it but can't be bothered to "trawl" through posts.

Prove I said it or admit you were wrong. Failure to do either makes your a liar

I'll give you a hint: I didn't say it. Not once. Haven't commented on it in the slightest. Perhaps your reading is as bad as your 'rithmetic.

The great minds of the No campaign, folks.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Boycey on May 18, 2018, 08:06:37 PM
As per usual on here a debate has turned into an 'I know more than you' competition!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Boycey on May 18, 2018, 08:06:37 PM
As per usual on here a debate has turned into an 'I know more than you' competition!

Not in the slightest. He posted multiple incorrect statements. I corrected him. He took it thick and had a wee hissy fit. Nothing more to it than that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 18, 2018, 08:30:25 PM
Quote from: Boycey on May 18, 2018, 08:06:37 PM
As per usual on here a debate has turned into an 'I know more than you' competition!

The attempts to draw false equilvence between both sides when it's clear one side has more blame than the other are so rife on this site and on social issues in particular that posts like this have become a cliche in and of themselves.

Usually it happens when the person posting it supports the side that's being rubbished and can't really offer a solid reason why they don't agree so they skip straight to the both-sideisms because it appears on the face of it a sensible interjection but that couldn't be further from the truth.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Boycey on May 18, 2018, 08:39:38 PM
Exhibit A ^^^^^^
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 10:37:13 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 07:51:49 PM
You are wrong. Your "calculations" were wrong. You don't know what you're on about.

As for:

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 18, 2018, 07:36:12 PM

I pretty sure you said it maybe you didnt if someone wants to trawl thru your posts again to find it they are welcome to. But a good few others have claimed it is BS when it does not appear to be

You have already claimed that "I said" the 1 in 5 stat is wrong. Now you're "pretty sure" I said it but can't be bothered to "trawl" through posts.

Prove I said it or admit you were wrong. Failure to do either makes your a liar

I'll give you a hint: I didn't say it. Not once. Haven't commented on it in the slightest. Perhaps your reading is as bad as your 'rithmetic.

The great minds of the No campaign, folks.

If I'm wrong Tell me where and how I am wrong.

You told me about my error, I accepted it and continued to try and get the ratio correct, then I told you about yours but you said I am wrong, tell me where and how and, we will get to the bottom of it.

I don't care if I am wrong but tell me where and we will reveal the facts

The rest is Ad hominen, Im sorry if you didn't say it specifically but try not to take it personally its an anonymous forum.
Unfortunately I get you, Syf, Sid and a few others mixed up as you all have the exact same opinion and attitude to everything.
I should have said the Yes side called BS on the 1in5 but it looks like it is actually right.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
You're wrong because you keep messing up the numbers. The claim from the No side is that 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion. Pregnancies. Not relative to live births or miscarriages. 1 in 5 pregnancies.

Total pregnancies = births + miscarriages + abortions. The fact that some miscarriages might have been aborted is irrelevant. Total number of pregnancies is X + Y + Z. Let's say abortions are Z. The calculation is Z/(X +Y +Z). Cry I'm "playing the man" all you like, but I genuinely can't make this any easier. It's not opinion, or a view on things. It's maths.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 18, 2018, 11:32:59 PM
Rte primetime I think showed stats on portugal showing more than 1:5 pregnancies were aborted. Obviously they didn't present a thesis on it. I just thought I'd bring it up again as Sid previously rubbished it. I believe those numbers to be accurate but im going to vote yes in any case.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 11:50:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2018, 11:32:59 PM
Rte primetime I think showed stats on portugal showing more than 1:5 pregnancies were aborted. Obviously they didn't present a thesis on it. I just thought I'd bring it up again as Sid previously rubbished it. I believe those numbers to be accurate but im going to vote yes in any case.
I haven't made any reference to Portugal's abortion rate, so I'm not sure how you think I could have "rubbished it".
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: southtyronegael on May 18, 2018, 11:53:15 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 18, 2018, 04:51:10 PM
Got a leaflet in letterbox today from no side with Cristiano Ronaldo's picture on it saying he wouldn't exist if abortion was an option.
i got one from the yes side with a picture of jimmy saville on it saying he wouldnt exist if abortion was an option.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 11:56:32 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 18, 2018, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2018, 05:49:23 PM
If anybody knows the score about the shameful attitude to women's health that prevailed and still prevails in Ireland, it's Vicky Phelan:

https://twitter.com/PhelanVicky/status/997104227418890240

I am voting Yes for the women of Ireland who have been let down by our health service and by our government time and time again. If we really want women to be placed at the centre of their own care, Vote Yes to allow us to make the choice about our own care #WhoNeedsYourYes

This is a spurious connection. The failure of screening could have affected any screening programme, including one for men only.

One can rationalise anything as "spurious" when it doesn't fit with your agenda.

But personally I'm not sure how one can rationalise the history of how women have been treated in Ireland since the foundation of the state, especially when it comes to their health, as anything other than disgraceful.

I suppose it becomes a little bit easier to rationalise it in your head as something less than disgraceful when you're a culturally and socially conservative man living in another jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 19, 2018, 03:42:08 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
You're wrong because you keep messing up the numbers. The claim from the No side is that 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion. Pregnancies. Not relative to live births or miscarriages. 1 in 5 pregnancies.

Total pregnancies = births + miscarriages + abortions. The fact that some miscarriages might have been aborted is irrelevant. Total number of pregnancies is X + Y + Z. Let's say abortions are Z. The calculation is Z/(X +Y +Z). Cry I'm "playing the man" all you like, but I genuinely can't make this any easier. It's not opinion, or a view on things. It's maths.

Seems like the miscarriages are been drawn into the argument to muddy the water

What would the ratio of abortions be to "viable" pregnancies?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 19, 2018, 05:52:37 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/19/ed-sheeran-denounces-use-of-song-in-anti-abortion-campaign-in-ireland

Ireland's referendum has attracted interest from groups from around the world seeking to influence the vote. A significant proportion of Facebook posts aimed at influencing voters were shown to have come from pages managed partly or entirely outside Ireland. Even some groups registered with Ireland's ethics watchdog, the Standards In Public Office Commission, had Facebook pages managed from abroad.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Asal Mor on May 19, 2018, 06:51:36 AM
Just one more week till this thing is over. Has there ever been a greater platform for self-righteous phoneys(on both sides)? From John Waters(and there's loads more like him on the No side), with his "how dare you interrupt me from saving thousands of babies from their black-capped executioners with your perfectly reasonable questions" outburst, to Yes voters getting outraged over phrases like "abortion on demand"(I've no issue with people voting for abortion but for jaysus sake be honest about what you're voting for), both sides of this debate have been sickening.

The only worthwhile and persuasive element of the debate that I've heard were the stories of women who've travelled full of shame and fear to England for abortions. That, allied to the laughable hypocrisy of our constitution which protects their right to travel for abortions is enough reason to vote yes.

Thank God there's another fantastic weekend of sport in store so we can escape from listening to the pontificators.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 07:33:19 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
You're wrong because you keep messing up the numbers. The claim from the No side is that 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion. Pregnancies. Not relative to live births or miscarriages. 1 in 5 pregnancies.

Total pregnancies = births + miscarriages + abortions. The fact that some miscarriages might have been aborted is irrelevant. Total number of pregnancies is X + Y + Z. Let's say abortions are Z. The calculation is Z/(X +Y +Z). Cry I'm "playing the man" all you like, but I genuinely can't make this any easier. It's not opinion, or a view on things. It's maths.

Hmm..... the posters said 1 in 5 babies? not pregnancies? Using the number of pregnancies is practically impossible as it suddenly becomes the least accurate variable as the miscarriages rate can be as high as 75% in the first few weeks and mothers don't even know they've had one.

The intend of the stat is obviously to give an accurate picture of how many extra babies would have been born had it not been for abortions. The best way to do this is by using likely successful pregnancies, which is what I was doing.

Anyway as I said before it looks like 1 in 5 is near enough spot on, we are at least agreed on that. And any difference is unlikely to influence you, I, or too many others anyway.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 19, 2018, 07:46:29 AM

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 07:33:19 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
You're wrong because you keep messing up the numbers. The claim from the No side is that 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion. Pregnancies. Not relative to live births or miscarriages. 1 in 5 pregnancies.

Total pregnancies = births + miscarriages + abortions. The fact that some miscarriages might have been aborted is irrelevant. Total number of pregnancies is X + Y + Z. Let's say abortions are Z. The calculation is Z/(X +Y +Z). Cry I'm "playing the man" all you like, but I genuinely can't make this any easier. It's not opinion, or a view on things. It's maths.

Hmm..... the posters said 1 in 5 babies? not pregnancies? Using the number of pregnancies is practically impossible as it suddenly becomes the least accurate variable as the miscarriages rate can be as high as 75% in the first few weeks and mothers don't even know they've had one.

The intend of the stat is obviously to give an accurate picture of how many extra babies would have been born had it not been for abortions. The best way to do this is by using likely successful pregnancies, which is what I was doing.

Ok, so what you're suggesting is that the No side don't consider it a baby until it's born...?

Regardless, if you choose to ignore miscarriages, you ignore it completely. You don't factor those into the statistics. A birth is a birth. A miscarriage is a miscarriage. You don't get to say "sure some of those would have been aborted, so let's juke the stats".

For the record, John McGuirk didn't say they left out miscarriages from their stats because of the "intent" of their posters was to show something else. He said they did so vendue it was too difficult to work them into the numbers, i.e. they're complete giving idiots.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 08:02:49 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 19, 2018, 07:46:29 AM

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 07:33:19 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
You're wrong because you keep messing up the numbers. The claim from the No side is that 1 in 5 pregnancies ends in abortion. Pregnancies. Not relative to live births or miscarriages. 1 in 5 pregnancies.

Total pregnancies = births + miscarriages + abortions. The fact that some miscarriages might have been aborted is irrelevant. Total number of pregnancies is X + Y + Z. Let's say abortions are Z. The calculation is Z/(X +Y +Z). Cry I'm "playing the man" all you like, but I genuinely can't make this any easier. It's not opinion, or a view on things. It's maths.

Hmm..... the posters said 1 in 5 babies? not pregnancies? Using the number of pregnancies is practically impossible as it suddenly becomes the least accurate variable as the miscarriages rate can be as high as 75% in the first few weeks and mothers don't even know they've had one.

The intend of the stat is obviously to give an accurate picture of how many extra babies would have been born had it not been for abortions. The best way to do this is by using likely successful pregnancies, which is what I was doing.

Ok, so what you're suggesting is that the No side don't consider it a baby until it's born...?

Regardless, if you choose to ignore miscarriages, you ignore it completely. You don't factor those into the statistics. A birth is a birth. A miscarriage is a miscarriage. You don't get to say "sure some of those would have been aborted, so let's juke the stats".

For the record, John McGuirk didn't say they left out miscarriages from their stats because of the "intent" of their posters was to show something else. He said they did so vendue it was too difficult to work them into the numbers, i.e. they're complete giving idiots.

Who's John McGurk ..Derry footballer who robbed his employer?... Sorry I dont know the personalities I just try to deal with facts

The poster showed a newborn infant, not a foetus so I assumed it was an attempt to give an accurate picture of how many extra babies would have been born had it not been for abortions, which is the only logical thing you could take from that.

Factoring in miscarriages into the number of live births is what you were doing which is juking the stats

Also isnt ignoring miscarriages exactly what they did because it is such a variable?

The yes side starting adding them in (which I actually think is fair enough) to get a more accurate picture but still we end up at 1 in 5....
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 19, 2018, 08:23:08 AM
No, I corrected your stats where you brought in miscarriages in your initial post on the matter. Include then, don't include, I couldn't care less. I was merely fixing your calculations. Yes they left it out (although the suspicion is that they did so as it would benefit them, not because it's too difficult to include them), but I'm not talking about that. YOU included them.

As previously mentioned, if the miscarriage rate is up towards 20%, as some statistics would suggest, the rate of abortions to pregnancies goes up above 1 in 6.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 08:45:18 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 19, 2018, 08:23:08 AM
No, I corrected your stats where you brought in miscarriages in your initial post on the matter. Include then, don't include, I couldn't care less. I was merely fixing your calculations. Yes they left it out (although the suspicion is that they did so as it would benefit them, not because it's too difficult to include them), but I'm not talking about that. YOU included them.

As previously mentioned, if the miscarriage rate is up towards 20%, as some statistics would suggest, the rate of abortions to pregnancies goes up above 1 in 6.

Yes thanks for that, but then you also started to tell me that it was pregnancies not successful births that the ratio should be based on. So if you are now assinging back to me authority on this, then the number should clearly be based on the number of likely successful births

The miscarriage rate could be as high as 75% which would make any attempt to give an accurate stat totally farcical. As I said before its all dependent on the gestational age and as a result when the abortions takes place. 1 in10 as far as I can make out is reasonably conservative based on a wide variety of factors.

So that works out to 1 in 5 if its a little more it makes it no less horrific to me or no more unacceptable for you, so we are at a moot point.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 19, 2018, 09:16:55 AM
Read earlier that the number of Irish women going to the UK is lower now than 1980. The numbers gradually increased year on year to 2001 (~6500) and have been falling since. Presumably due to increased availability of contraception. Not necessarily relevant to the debate but I thought it was interesting nonetheless

https://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Franko on May 19, 2018, 02:01:22 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on May 19, 2018, 06:51:36 AM
Just one more week till this thing is over. Has there ever been a greater platform for self-righteous phoneys(on both sides)? From John Waters(and there's loads more like him on the No side), with his "how dare you interrupt me from saving thousands of babies from their black-capped executioners with your perfectly reasonable questions" outburst, to Yes voters getting outraged over phrases like "abortion on demand"(I've no issue with people voting for abortion but for jaysus sake be honest about what you're voting for), both sides of this debate have been sickening.

The only worthwhile and persuasive element of the debate that I've heard were the stories of women who've travelled full of shame and fear to England for abortions. That, allied to the laughable hypocrisy of our constitution which protects their right to travel for abortions is enough reason to vote yes.

Thank God there's another fantastic weekend of sport in store so we can escape from listening to the pontificators.

This.

The extremes on both sides of this debate are both particularly obnoxious.

Can wait until it's over.  If I had a vote I'd probably be voting yes but it's not a no-brainer for me.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 19, 2018, 04:31:23 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 19, 2018, 02:01:22 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on May 19, 2018, 06:51:36 AM
Just one more week till this thing is over. Has there ever been a greater platform for self-righteous phoneys(on both sides)? From John Waters(and there's loads more like him on the No side), with his "how dare you interrupt me from saving thousands of babies from their black-capped executioners with your perfectly reasonable questions" outburst, to Yes voters getting outraged over phrases like "abortion on demand"(I've no issue with people voting for abortion but for jaysus sake be honest about what you're voting for), both sides of this debate have been sickening.

The only worthwhile and persuasive element of the debate that I've heard were the stories of women who've travelled full of shame and fear to England for abortions. That, allied to the laughable hypocrisy of our constitution which protects their right to travel for abortions is enough reason to vote yes.

Thank God there's another fantastic weekend of sport in store so we can escape from listening to the pontificators.

This.

The extremes on both sides of this debate are both particularly obnoxious.

Can wait until it's over.  If I had a vote I'd probably be voting yes but it's not a no-brainer for me.

Totally agree obnoxious arrogant people on both sides pointing out the obnoxious arrogant people on the other.
Best example is the sign on belbulben. No stick it up, cheap stunt. Yes moan about how outrageous it is. Yes side wreck it, cheap stunt. No side point cry about hypocritical no yes side.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.

A continuation of the "your stupid if you don't support abortion"
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.

A continuation of the "your stupid if you don't support abortion"
To be fair, most No supporters on this thread have proved themselves beyond any doubt to be such.

And you're all very touchy about a gentle wind up, as you just proved there.

If you can't handle an unwanted joke, you should try handling an unwanted pregnancy.







Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:43:45 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.

A continuation of the "your stupid if you don't support abortion"
To be fair, most No supporters on this thread have proved themselves beyond any doubt to be such.

And you're all very touchy about a gentle wind up, as you just proved there.

If you can't handle an unwanted joke, you should try handling an unwanted pregnancy.

Since your averaging about 3 logical fallacies per post your not proving yourself to be the most adept at adhering to rationale

Im not touchy in the slightest Ive repeated this 100 times on here, its an anonymous forum how could it ever be personal I know nothing about you nor you about me.

BTW I think you also may misunderstand flat earth v smooth earth
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 19, 2018, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:43:45 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.

A continuation of the "your stupid if you don't support abortion"
To be fair, most No supporters on this thread have proved themselves beyond any doubt to be such.

And you're all very touchy about a gentle wind up, as you just proved there.

If you can't handle an unwanted joke, you should try handling an unwanted pregnancy.

Since your averaging about 3 logical fallacies per post your not proving yourself to be the most adept at adhering to rationale

Im not touchy in the slightest Ive repeated this 100 times on here, its an anonymous forum how could it ever be personal I know nothing about you nor you about me.

BTW I think you also may misunderstand flat earth v smooth earth

You're incredibly touchy.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:43:45 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.

A continuation of the "your stupid if you don't support abortion"
To be fair, most No supporters on this thread have proved themselves beyond any doubt to be such.

And you're all very touchy about a gentle wind up, as you just proved there.

If you can't handle an unwanted joke, you should try handling an unwanted pregnancy.

Since your averaging about 3 logical fallacies per post your not proving yourself to be the most adept at adhering to rationale

Im not touchy in the slightest Ive repeated this 100 times on here, its an anonymous forum how could it ever be personal I know nothing about you nor you about me.

BTW I think you also may misunderstand flat earth v smooth earth

Ah lovely, "logical fallacies" - the go to phrase for the internet dullard trying to make himself look smart. Once "logical fallacy" appears, you really know you're tangling with an intellectual heavyweight. ;D

As for your last sentence, deary, deary me. Just take the joke, mate. Your obvious irritation at it is only prolonging the mirth.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 11:31:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:43:45 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 19, 2018, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.

A continuation of the "your stupid if you don't support abortion"
To be fair, most No supporters on this thread have proved themselves beyond any doubt to be such.

And you're all very touchy about a gentle wind up, as you just proved there.

If you can't handle an unwanted joke, you should try handling an unwanted pregnancy.

Since your averaging about 3 logical fallacies per post your not proving yourself to be the most adept at adhering to rationale

Im not touchy in the slightest Ive repeated this 100 times on here, its an anonymous forum how could it ever be personal I know nothing about you nor you about me.

BTW I think you also may misunderstand flat earth v smooth earth

Ah lovely, "logical fallacies" - the go to phrase for the internet dullard trying to make himself look smart. Once "logical fallacy" appears, you really know you're tangling with an intellectual heavyweight. ;D

As for your last sentence, deary, deary me. Just take the joke, mate. Your obvious irritation at it is only prolonging the mirth.

You now slagging off the most basic tenets for debating... sticking to the subject and rationale with your argument.

Tho Not sure how pointing out the errors in your logic makes "me" look smart but so be it...... its an anonymous forum... no one knows who I am... so how could it make me look smart?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 03:01:15 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.

You are a piece of work. sc**bag
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 20, 2018, 03:04:01 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

No...youre not allowed say that anyone on the Yes side is an extremist! 

Nor can you say that anyone on the Yes side had conducted themselves in any questionable manner!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 20, 2018, 03:06:11 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
I'm surprised that "No" supporters managed to make it halfway up Ben Bulben at all - they much prefer the earth to be flat.

Im surprised the women involved even made it quarter way up, never mind halfway with all the tea and sandwiches they were (supposedly) carting up with them
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
Quote from: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 03:01:15 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.

You are a piece of work. sc**bag

This post typifies a lot of the No side.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.

Once again I'm in agreement with Sy here

Since 90%+ of abortions carried on will be on pregnancies from consensual mating and will not be medically necessary, that's what the discussion should be about.... so we should get back to it....

That 90%+ is a straight up weigh up of Mother Choice v Unborn Person's Life
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.

Once again I'm in agreement with Sy here


Since 90%+ of abortions carried on will be on pregnancies from consensual mating and will not be medically necessary, that's what the discussion should be about.... so we should get back to it....

That 90%+ is a straight up weigh up of Mother Choice v Unborn Person's Life

It's about every single situation wher abortion is needed. Pretending that people should only focus on the one use of abortion is incredibly disingenuous.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 06:57:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.

Once again I'm in agreement with Sy here


Since 90%+ of abortions carried on will be on pregnancies from consensual mating and will not be medically necessary, that's what the discussion should be about.... so we should get back to it....

That 90%+ is a straight up weigh up of Mother Choice v Unborn Person's Life

It's about every single situation wher abortion is needed. Pretending that people should only focus on the one use of abortion is incredibly disingenuous.

Did you not just say that the extremes are ridiculous? I thought by that you wanted to focus on the very similar scenario for the bulk of cases?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 07:48:55 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
Quote from: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 03:01:15 AM


Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.

You are a piece of work. sc**bag

This post typifies a lot of the No side.

'No Side'. Grow up you twat, this isnt a game with sides. Some people here are parents or brothers-, sisters, grandparents of what you would describe as non 'healthy' babies. Have a bit of cop.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 07:54:41 AM
By the way I don't care how you vote. Just don't be such a childish dick on here when 'educating' everybody.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 20, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 07:48:55 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
Quote from: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 03:01:15 AM


Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.

You are a piece of work. sc**bag

This post typifies a lot of the No side.

'No Side'. Grow up you twat, this isnt a game with sides. Some people here are parents or brothers-, sisters, grandparents of what you would describe as non 'healthy' babies. Have a bit of cop.

A huge plus 1 for this post. As a baby who was extremely sick (and still feel effects to this day) you've let yourself down shitting here Syf with that comment. My parents never complained. In fact they were delighted with any little bit of progress I made. So you Don't speak for all parents. I only dip in and out of here so I only saw your post now since TomFun posted it.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 09:12:31 AM
https://youtu.be/HlP7n9Amakw

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 20, 2018, 09:46:55 AM
Clearly a sensitive issue, and there are posters on the board who are parents of kids with Down's Syndrome and other serious illnesses, but people are clearly being morons about the "healthy babies" point. Cleary no parent would wish their child to have Down's Syndrome. The fact that those children are subsequently then loved and cherished as much as any other child is completely f**king irrelevant.

You were sick as a child and your parents loved you? Well done. What the flying f**k does that have to do with the next couple facing unwelcome news around the health of their unborn child?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 10:06:25 AM
Classy post Gallsman. You would do well to educate yourself around a subject before commenting. I couldn't care less what way people vote, it's a very personal issue for a lot of people and unlike alot here I don't consider myself important enough to tell others how to think. What does annoy me is the ignorance around disability alot of the self appointed experts on here display. Stop being so f**king offensive
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 20, 2018, 10:11:45 AM
Lads, is there any need for the language? You'd swear some of your autocorrects insert fucks and insults into sentences. I know people who seemingly can't speak a sentence without a curse in it, but being unable to type without one is strange.

Anyway I think some people are reading something into Syf's post that isn't there. Of course every prospective parent hopes their child will be born healthy and strong. It's crazy to suggest they don't. However he is not saying that they wish to swap their children or anything like that. Once the issue is uncovered and the baby is born, those children are loved and cherished as much as a healthy baby. Of course they are.

So I don't think he is saying the parents of children with problems wish they were never born, or anything like that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 20, 2018, 10:26:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2018, 10:11:45 AM
Anyway I think some people are reading something into Syf's post that isn't there. Of course every prospective parent hopes their child will be born healthy and strong. It's crazy to suggest they don't. However he is not saying that they wish to swap their children or anything like that. Once the issue is uncovered and the baby is born, those children are loved and cherished as much as a healthy baby. Of course they are.


See this is my issue, I don't believe for a second that people are reading into something that isn't there. It's a calculated, manipulative red herring, and a particularly disgraceful one at that given it explicitly preys on the emotions of parents who have experienced emotional turmoil over the health of their kids.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 20, 2018, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 10:06:25 AM
Classy post Gallsman. You would do well to educate yourself around a subject before commenting. I couldn't care less what way people vote, it's a very personal issue for a lot of people and unlike alot here I don't consider myself important enough to tell others how to think. What does annoy me is the ignorance around disability alot of the self appointed experts on here display. Stop being so f**king offensive
Thanks Tom. I'll not worry too much about taking lessons in manners from someone who calls someone a sc**bag and a twat, but you make sure to enjoy your day!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 12:52:39 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 06:57:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.

Once again I'm in agreement with Sy here


Since 90%+ of abortions carried on will be on pregnancies from consensual mating and will not be medically necessary, that's what the discussion should be about.... so we should get back to it....

That 90%+ is a straight up weigh up of Mother Choice v Unborn Person's Life

It's about every single situation wher abortion is needed. Pretending that people should only focus on the one use of abortion is incredibly disingenuous.

Did you not just say that the extremes are ridiculous? I thought by that you wanted to focus on the very similar scenario for the bulk of cases?

I really cannot fathom how you took me talking about the extreme views of people on any given issues to mean it's ok to ignore cases of rape, incest, fatal fetal abnormalities or the mental well being of the woman when discussing abortion.


Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 20, 2018, 08:07:27 AM
Quote from: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 07:48:55 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
Quote from: TomFun on May 20, 2018, 03:01:15 AM


Quote from: Syferus on May 17, 2018, 10:16:53 PM
I love how fast some here are to judge what any couple does with advances modern science. You'd swear that a healthy baby wasn't something all parents wish to have.

You are a piece of work. sc**bag

This post typifies a lot of the No side.

'No Side'. Grow up you twat, this isnt a game with sides. Some people here are parents or brothers-, sisters, grandparents of what you would describe as non 'healthy' babies. Have a bit of cop.

A huge plus 1 for this post. As a baby who was extremely sick (and still feel effects to this day) you've let yourself down shitting here Syf with that comment. My parents never complained. In fact they were delighted with any little bit of progress I made. So you Don't speak for all parents. I only dip in and out of here so I only saw your post now since TomFun posted it.

You are not comprehending what is a very beign point - that no one wants anything but their baby to be healthy - and combining it with an assumption of that meaning that any one born not healthy is 'defective'. That is the pathetic aspect of TomFun's sensationalist posts. I take serious issue with the characterisation he attempted to create of my post.

Screening for issues before birth is common place; what is done with that information is not something I am prepared to sit down and judge from afar like TomFun is attempting to do. Does he know the situations of each and every woman who ends a pregnancy? Who is he to judge her? A lot of the No side seem to want to have input in incredibly private matters between couples, and particularly the sexual biology of women. Not forcing narrow viewpoints on others is something Ireland has been learning to avoid doing for the last twenty years.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:16 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 12:52:39 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 06:57:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.

Once again I'm in agreement with Sy here


Since 90%+ of abortions carried on will be on pregnancies from consensual mating and will not be medically necessary, that's what the discussion should be about.... so we should get back to it....

That 90%+ is a straight up weigh up of Mother Choice v Unborn Person's Life

It's about every single situation wher abortion is needed. Pretending that people should only focus on the one use of abortion is incredibly disingenuous.

Did you not just say that the extremes are ridiculous? I thought by that you wanted to focus on the very similar scenario for the bulk of cases?

I really cannot fathom how you took me talking about the extreame views of people on any given issues to mean it's ok to ignore cases of rape, incest, fatal fetal abnormalities or the mental well being of the woman when discussing abortion.


Probably because thats what the initial post by mrdeeds was about...?

We ignore the extreme cases in both sides because they do not make up the majority. If I'm speeding because I'm in a rush its a crime, if I am speeding to get my wife to hospital its still a crime but its overlooked as it is deemed acceptable reason for breaking the law. We don't legislate to make speeding legal because of a few exceptional cases which we deem acceptable for breaking the law we use our judgement on the circumstances of each scenario.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:15:59 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2018, 10:11:45 AM
Lads, is there any need for the language? You'd swear some of your autocorrects insert f**ks and insults into sentences. I know people who seemingly can't speak a sentence without a curse in it, but being unable to type without one is strange.

Anyway I think some people are reading something into Syf's post that isn't there. Of course every prospective parent hopes their child will be born healthy and strong. It's crazy to suggest they don't. However he is not saying that they wish to swap their children or anything like that. Once the issue is uncovered and the baby is born, those children are loved and cherished as much as a healthy baby. Of course they are.

So I don't think he is saying the parents of children with problems wish they were never born, or anything like that.

The context of the conversation was regarding the collapse of the population of Downs Syndrome population. In the context it was offered as justification for the termination of Down Syndrome diagnosis
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 05:14:15 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:16 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 12:52:39 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 06:57:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.

Once again I'm in agreement with Sy here


Since 90%+ of abortions carried on will be on pregnancies from consensual mating and will not be medically necessary, that's what the discussion should be about.... so we should get back to it....

That 90%+ is a straight up weigh up of Mother Choice v Unborn Person's Life

It's about every single situation wher abortion is needed. Pretending that people should only focus on the one use of abortion is incredibly disingenuous.

Did you not just say that the extremes are ridiculous? I thought by that you wanted to focus on the very similar scenario for the bulk of cases?

I really cannot fathom how you took me talking about the extreame views of people on any given issues to mean it's ok to ignore cases of rape, incest, fatal fetal abnormalities or the mental well being of the woman when discussing abortion.


Probably because thats what the initial post by mrdeeds was about...?

We ignore the extreme cases in both sides because they do not make up the majority. If I'm speeding because I'm in a rush its a crime, if I am speeding to get my wife to hospital its still a crime but its overlooked as it is deemed acceptable reason for breaking the law. We don't legislate to make speeding legal because of a few exceptional cases which we deem acceptable for breaking the law we use our judgement on the circumstances of each scenario.

I said nothing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 21, 2018, 09:18:37 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:16 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 12:52:39 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 06:57:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 20, 2018, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 20, 2018, 02:03:38 AM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 20, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Is anyone going to change a voters view on this? No. Can we all not agree that the extreme on both sides is ridiculous.

The extreme of anything is ridiculous. I don't know what that has to do with this, though. Both sides do not have the same amount of extremists by the looks of things so you'd be well advised not to draw a false equivalence between Yes and No campaigners.

Once again I'm in agreement with Sy here


Since 90%+ of abortions carried on will be on pregnancies from consensual mating and will not be medically necessary, that's what the discussion should be about.... so we should get back to it....

That 90%+ is a straight up weigh up of Mother Choice v Unborn Person's Life

It's about every single situation wher abortion is needed. Pretending that people should only focus on the one use of abortion is incredibly disingenuous.

Did you not just say that the extremes are ridiculous? I thought by that you wanted to focus on the very similar scenario for the bulk of cases?

I really cannot fathom how you took me talking about the extreame views of people on any given issues to mean it's ok to ignore cases of rape, incest, fatal fetal abnormalities or the mental well being of the woman when discussing abortion.


Probably because thats what the initial post by mrdeeds was about...?

We ignore the extreme cases in both sides because they do not make up the majority. If I'm speeding because I'm in a rush its a crime, if I am speeding to get my wife to hospital its still a crime but its overlooked as it is deemed acceptable reason for breaking the law. We don't legislate to make speeding legal because of a few exceptional cases which we deem acceptable for breaking the law we use our judgement on the circumstances of each scenario.
You ignore the extreme cases because you know full well the 8th Amendment causes extreme cases - regularly.

We should legislate for abortion because that's what sensible countries whose people aren't living in a la la make believe fantasy world do. Like, say, every other country in Europe.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 21, 2018, 09:21:19 AM
Is it over yet?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 21, 2018, 10:53:51 AM
Quote from: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 04:45:55 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 18, 2018, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 18, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 18, 2018, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
The youngest person with down syndrome in Iceland is 20. Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model. Shame on them, hopefully Ireland does not head the same way. What choice did these babies have or were the parents coerced into making their decision. Progressive society not. Savita Halapanavar died of sepsis not for the need of an abortion. I will be voting no, I do feel huge sympathy for couples with cases of ffa.

Can't let this go. She died of sepsis because she was denied the proper medical treatment to save her life because of concerns of her doctors over the 8th amendment. It couldn't be clearer. She wouldn't have died in most countries in the world as it wouldn't have been in question.

Cant let this go either. A huge number of prominent consultants have came out and clearly explained the doctors in this case fucked up, nothing in the 8th amendment should have caused the death of SH.

Name and quote them and please indicate the level of access and knowledge they have about this case.

The official report is above. You wish to refute it so you'll need to do better than what you've said.

Even if you're right, it shows there is at best confusion among highly paid and educated professionals about the 8th amendment which is leading to improper treatment of women.

I wouldn't expect much, Rudi appears to be quite fond of posting manufactured facts and figures without anything backing it up. Still waiting to hear about a source for the youngest person in Iceland with Down's Syndrome being 20.

I read it heard it on the six one news various sources. I don't have time to post links. More over I don't need to justify myself or any quote to you.

Of course you don't have to justify yourself to me or anyone. However, in a discussion, if you want your points to be taken seriously, especially if you're contradicting and official enquiry, I think it's reasonable to ask that you include some facts.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 22, 2018, 10:04:20 AM
I was interested in Rudi's claim about Iceland, turns out its pretty much true, not quiet but it seems that IF people find out about their child having DS then they terminate

from 2007 to 2015 every single pregnant woman in Iceland terminated a fetus with Down syndrome following a positive diagnosis

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/behind-the-lens-disappearing-down-syndrome/ you

Another tough one to call, its very different finding out after 3 months to actually having the baby and then finding out
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 11:01:03 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 22, 2018, 10:04:20 AM
I was interested in Rudi's claim about Iceland, turns out its pretty much true, not quiet but it seems that IF people find out about their child having DS then they terminate

from 2007 to 2015 every single pregnant woman in Iceland terminated a fetus with Down syndrome following a positive diagnosis

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/behind-the-lens-disappearing-down-syndrome/ you

Another tough one to call, its very different finding out after 3 months to actually having the baby and then finding out

Well no, his post was utter bollocks.

He claimed, as absolute fact, that the youngest person in Iceland with Down's Syndrome was 20. Zero evidence provided. There's no "pretty much true" here at all. He's 100% wrong.

He also claimed that "Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model" despite the fact it is obvious that each case is an individual decision a) to get the test and then b) to decide whether to terminate or not.

He also then completely whiffed on the nature of Savita Halapanavar's death.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 22, 2018, 11:28:30 AM
Irish Independent May 1st 2013. Consultants claim Irish law was not responsible for Savitas death.

The Iceland case about 20 year I read in a local newspaper.  It's false I did not know that at the time, however it's clear from numbers that Iceland aborts babies with downs. Galls man learn some manners.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 11:45:11 AM
Quote from: Rudi on May 22, 2018, 11:28:30 AM
Irish Independent May 1st 2013. Consultants claim Irish law was not responsible for Savitas death.

The Iceland case about 20 year I read in a local newspaper.  It's false I did not know that at the time, however it's clear from numbers that Iceland aborts babies with downs. Galls man learn some manners.


It was in a local newspaper? What about the Six One news that you also claimed?

As for it being wrong, I'm sure you were just waiting to verify the facts and were of course going to come on here and correct yourself?

"Iceland" does not abort anything. Individuals make the decisions.

Away and shite with your "manners" when you post such deliberate lies.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:48:12 AM
But, but, but...he doesn't know what he's talking about, or something.

The author of the investigation into Savita Halappanavar's death has reiterated his finding that she would still be alive if the Eighth Amendment did not exist.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/professor-savita-would-be-alive-today-if-not-for-8th-470954.html
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:48:12 AM
But, but, but...he doesn't know what he's talking about, or something.

The author of the investigation into Savita Halappanavar's death has reiterated his finding that she would still be alive if the Eighth Amendment did not exist.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/professor-savita-would-be-alive-today-if-not-for-8th-470954.html

Don't worry Matty McGrath got a call from a woman doctor he knows.  He will put this "so-called-expert" straight.  Just like he explained how a few drinks make nervous drivers safer.

Our maybe that lady DJ from Spirit FM, she seemed to know a lot more about these things than Peter Boylan.

Of course Dr. Arulkumaran is being sly intervening at this late stage.  It will minimize the time available to dig dirt up to discredit him.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 22, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:48:12 AM
But, but, but...he doesn't know what he's talking about, or something.

The author of the investigation into Savita Halappanavar's death has reiterated his finding that she would still be alive if the Eighth Amendment did not exist.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/professor-savita-would-be-alive-today-if-not-for-8th-470954.html

This may or may not be true. But the Eighth Amendment now is not the same as when she did not receive proper treatment and a lot of people, including you, are attempting to give the impression that it is.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2018, 03:12:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 22, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
This may or may not be true. But the Eighth Amendment now is not the same as when she did not receive proper treatment and a lot of people, including you, are attempting to give the impression that it is.

How is it different?

Maybe point out here:  https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/DOT/eng/Historical_Information/The_Constitution/Constitution_of_Ireland_-_Bunreacht_na_h%C3%89ireann.html



/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 04:53:15 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 22, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:48:12 AM
But, but, but...he doesn't know what he's talking about, or something.

The author of the investigation into Savita Halappanavar's death has reiterated his finding that she would still be alive if the Eighth Amendment did not exist.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/professor-savita-would-be-alive-today-if-not-for-8th-470954.html

This may or may not be true. But the Eighth Amendment now is not the same as when she did not receive proper treatment and a lot of people, including you, are attempting to give the impression that it is.
The Eighth Amendment now is exactly the same as it was when it was introduced. The wording has not changed. And it's exactly the same as in 2012.

The Supreme Court has chipped away around the edges over the years at what those who campaigned for it thought they were getting. The X case in 1992 was such an example. Two Fianna Fail governments - that of Albert Reynolds and that of Bertie Ahern, tried to get the X Case judgement that threat of suicide was a grounds for allowing an abortion overturned in referendums in 1992 and 2002 and both times they failed.

The same people who are campaigning to retain the 8th Amendment now all campaigned against legislating for the X Case. But the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act is irrelevant to cases such as the Savita one. Were a Savita case to occur today, doctors and medical staff would face the exact same contraints as they did in 2012. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Let there be no doubt that the concept of the Eighth Amendment in the first place was thought up by the Roman Catholic religious right. It was the Roman Catholic religious right that opportuniscally used political instability in 1981 and 1982 to make a referendum a pre-requisite for support for a minority government held and it was they who tried to shout everybody else down during the campaign of that referendum.

There is a direct lineage between the No campaign in this referendum and every campaign against every progressive measure ths country has introduced in the last 40 years. Every single time they've been wrong. Most of the No campaign would still be campaigning against the legalisation of contraception were it still banned.

Those who campaigned in 1983 knew what they were NOT campaigning for. They were very definitely not campaigning for the right to travel, or that the threat of suicide would be grounds for an abortion.

But the almost certain likelihood of those things arising in future via Supreme Court judgements was widely referenced at the time. In their zealotry, the Roman Catholic religious right ignored these warnings. The irony is that the 8th Amendment would lead to the right to an abortion being specifically enshrined in the constitution, and it'll ultimately lead to comprehensive legislation for abortion - because people have seen that the 8th Amendment is a disaster.

Those who won the battle in 1983 lost the war, and their own zealotry contributed to that loss.




Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 09:31:37 PM
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 22, 2018, 09:41:22 PM
It's amazing to think how far as a country we've come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 22, 2018, 09:59:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 22, 2018, 09:41:22 PM
It's amazing to think how far as a country we've come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

Some counties have come on further than others of course.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 10:57:56 PM
Katie Ascough. Lol.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:28:48 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 10:57:56 PM
Katie Ascough. Lol.
She's vile. No wonder she was impeached by UCD. The wonder is how the fook she ever got elected in the first place. A total lightweight too who has nothing more than pre-prepared robo-conservative lines borrowed from evangelical nut jobs in the US. Pat Kenny threw a couple of pretty easy questions at her last month and she tied herself in knots.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 22, 2018, 11:36:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:28:48 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 10:57:56 PM
Katie Ascough. Lol.
She's vile. No wonder she was impeached by UCD. The wonder is how the fook she ever got elected in the first place. A total lightweight too who has nothing more than pre-prepared robo-conservative lines borrowed from evangelical nut jobs in the US. Pat Kenny threw a couple of pretty easy questions at her last month and she tied herself in knots.

I think she is lovely
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 22, 2018, 11:37:30 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 09:31:37 PM
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 11:48:25 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 22, 2018, 11:37:30 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 09:31:37 PM
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?

Cora Sherlock, having repeatedly challenged Harris to a debate, which was due to be tonight. A few hours before going on air, they tried to strong arm RTE. She was suddenly unavailable and the No campaign said it was Maria Steen or nobody, so RTE called their bluff.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 11:48:25 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 22, 2018, 11:37:30 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 09:31:37 PM
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?

Cora Sherlock, having repeatedly challenged Harris to a debate, which was due to be tonight. A few hours before going on air, they tried to strong arm RTE. She was suddenly unavailable and the No campaign said it was Maria Steen or nobody, so RTE called their bluff.
And the funniest thing of all is that Steen has now pulled out of tomorrow's TV3 Pat Kenny debate.

The No campaign have humiliated themselves this evening and it's hilarious.

RTE should have had Mary Higgins debate as scheduled and placed a tub of lard in the spot where Sherlock was due to stand, like Have I Got News For You once did.

The No campaign tried to pull a Ger Loughnane-esque dummy team stunt and instead of pulling the fast one they thought they would, it completely backfired on them.

The disregard for serious public debate they have is frightening.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 23, 2018, 02:43:35 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 22, 2018, 09:41:22 PM
It's amazing to think how far as a country we've come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

WhoooppeeeDooo. Lets celebrate killing children. Aren't we great?



As far as I understand it, legislation as it sits allows for intervention in the case of significant and imminent danger to the mother. The recent fatality was a result of undue delay in taking action. I don't see the need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to rectify this, a clarification from the courts would be sufficient.


I have grave concerns this is a slippery slope to abortion on demand - which I think is a horrible, horrible side-effect of liberalisation (which has in general done untold good) - folks being too quick to put their own rights on a pedestal and damn anyone else it affects.

If (and unfortunately IMO, likely when) the 8th is repealed, who actually thinks the 12 week limit will stay as such for long?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 23, 2018, 06:08:31 AM
Firstly TBH I think its wrong that a woman in Savita's position are not given an abortion, the sac had burst, there was no possibility that the baby could survive that early.

I'm no legal expert (que the ad hominen) but its a bizarre interpretation of the amendment to say that in her case she should not have been able to terminate the pregnancy.

In fact I would be suspicious that the absolutist interpretation of the amendment was a cynical way to ensure that these cases arise and in do doing so turn a critical mass of public opinion to begrudgingly accepting legislation for unrestricted abortion as the only way to avoid these cases.


Regarding the case of Savita itself... since the sepsis was the likely cause of the miscarriage and was a result of failure of the medical team to identify the cause which was sepsis, it therefore went untreated. The reason it seems is that most of the medical guidelines for miscarriages are piggy backed from other countries that just abort and ask no questions. Ireland needs additional guidelines which have been rectified.

The sepsis was not being treated and this coupled with the continuation of the pregnancy while a fetal heartbeat remained accelerated the condition to the point where it turned it into a fatal condition.

I am open to correction on the case BTW but as far as I can make out these are the events which lead to her death. After this it is all if, buts & maybes


Would Savitta survived if the sepsis had been treated initially with no termination....most likely

Would Savitta have survived if the pregnancy if it had been terminated when the sac ruptured...most likely as it would have allowed the condition to develop more slowly and thereby allow it to be diagnosed before it reached an advanced stage.

I read a bit here and there about her case before now but I must admit the portrayal by the media was somewhat different. Thing is she did die from sepsis, she could and should have been saved if it had been identified when her waters broke and treated at that point... even if she did not have an abortion. An abortion in time could also have saved her (which incidentally I also think she should have got as there was no prospect of the baby surviving).

The medical guidelines have been updated to ensure it never happens again so if a mirror of this case arose the condition would be identified, treatment begun and the pregnancy would be terminated and the mother would have a much higher chance of survival.

Now the way this case has been spun to support the pro choice campaign is completely wrong IMO. To say that removal of the 8th is the only way to save mothers like Savitta is completely incorrect as those changes to the guidelines are already in place.
Going from inadequate medical care and lack of pregnancy guidelines which (is what the report found) caused the death of this woman.....
....to.....
............any woman should have the right to end a pregnancy for any or no reason at a quantum leap jump in logic.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 23, 2018, 06:16:44 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 22, 2018, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 11:48:25 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 22, 2018, 11:37:30 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 09:31:37 PM
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?

Cora Sherlock, having repeatedly challenged Harris to a debate, which was due to be tonight. A few hours before going on air, they tried to strong arm RTE. She was suddenly unavailable and the No campaign said it was Maria Steen or nobody, so RTE called their bluff.
And the funniest thing of all is that Steen has now pulled out of tomorrow's TV3 Pat Kenny debate.

The No campaign have humiliated themselves this evening and it's hilarious.

RTE should have had Mary Higgins debate as scheduled and placed a tub of lard in the spot where Sherlock was due to stand, like Have I Got News For You once did.

The No campaign tried to pull a Ger Loughnane-esque dummy team stunt and instead of pulling the fast one they thought they would, it completely backfired on them.

The disregard for serious public debate they have is frightening.

Do you mean RTE?

I have literally no idea who any of these people are

Who cares who is on a debate, the public have the right to be informed by the best arguments on both sides, does it matter who it is delivered by? The best most informed debaters should be put forward by the respective campaigns and RTE should let them at it

Do RTE care more about getting ratings with a shouting match than actually informing the public? Probably
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 23, 2018, 06:22:14 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 22, 2018, 09:41:22 PM
It's amazing to think how far as a country we've come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

When did extinguishing the life of a unique individual for any or no reason whatsoever become a basic and vital medical procedure?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 23, 2018, 08:18:45 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 23, 2018, 06:22:14 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 22, 2018, 09:41:22 PM
It's amazing to think how far as a country we've come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

When did extinguishing the life of a unique individual for any or no reason whatsoever become a basic and vital medical procedure?
It's a right for mothers to choose in most democratic countries
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 23, 2018, 08:50:50 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/miriam-lord-stony-faced-silence-from-anti-abortion-absolutists-1.3504884

Because everyone was so busy being respectful, it seemed inappropriate to start up a chant in the chamber when the awkward silence descended.

But, as the ditty goes, they were all very quiet over there.

The truth hurts.

After years and years of pouring cold words from closed hearts, the absolutists had nothing to say when called out on their fake concern for the hard cases.

When Leo Varadkar and Mary Lou McDonald nailed their rank hypocrisy, they kept schtum.

For over 30 years they, or those like them, had plenty to say about those hard cases when fighting with every fibre of their being to have them cast out of their own country, along with their less deserving, casually exiled sisters.

Then five years ago, they deliberately turned their backs to the hard cases when vehemently opposing every syllable in the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act (PLDPA). Despite their unstinting efforts inside and outside Leinster House – the histrionics, the filibustering, the pressurising of colleagues, the unfounded scaremongering – that legislation passed into law.

Just one tiny concession and they railed against it, vowing to overturn it if ever there came a chance. That Bill recognised just one hard case, the hardest case of all: women who will most definitely die unless their pregnancy is ended.

But even the PLDPA was a step too far for the politicians who voted against it and were proud of the fact.

A death's door directive for a gravely ill woman.

And they voted against it.

And they have remained implacable in their refusal to give any comfort to women who have been raped or women carrying a baby which won't live outside the womb and who want to end their pregnancies.

Gullible doctors

Because you can't trust women, who will be lining up to pretend they're dying in order to procure abortions. And if they aren't acting out death scenes in surgeries the length and breadth of Ireland, they'll be pulling the wool over gullible doctors' eyes by being suicidal all of a sudden.

As late as last weekend, Senator Rónán Mullen was sounding troubled about what exactly constitutes mental health, particularly where it pertains to a woman who may be experiencing a crisis pregnancy.

There is "a lack of evidence that mental health is health" was his astonishing remark while he ruminated on "the suicide thing" and other aspects of the PLDPA during an appearance on RTÉ's The Week in Politics. It so angered his fellow Senator Grace O'Sullivan that she called for him to come into the Upper House "to explain to us why he said that he does not believe that mental health is health".

The Green Party politician told the Seanad on Tuesday, "I don't know what utopia he lives in but I live in a world where mental health is a real health issue to which we in this country . . . are not giving enough time."

Meanwhile, back in the Dáil, the Sinn Féin leader was determined that people should not forget the doom-laden words and actions of politicians and anti-abortion campaigners who stood in total opposition to the PLDPA before it was enacted.

These same people are now trying to say that they supported it and that it gives more than adequate protection to women, but sure if it doesn't, it mightn't be a bad idea to take another look at the hard cases again.
Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald: the people now suddenly aware of the hard cases are the "very same people" who "themselves campaigned against the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill". Photograph: Gareth Chaney Collins Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald: the people now suddenly aware of the hard cases are the "very same people" who "themselves campaigned against the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill". Photograph: Gareth Chaney Collins   
And grant them their fervent wish that the Eighth Amendment remains in place.

"In the course of this debate, it is important that we deal in fact," she told the Taoiseach during Leaders' Questions. "I have heard assertions from the No campaign and its spokespersons that what they call hard cases, pregnancies as a result of rape, for example, or a pregnancy with a diagnosis of fatal foetal anomaly, that these cases can be dealt with under the current constitutional framework, and that is patently untrue."

Mary Lou McDonald is right.

The Taoiseach absolutely agreed with her.

'Hard law'

"I would contend that it is actually our hard laws that create those hard cases," replied Varadkar. "And the Eighth Amendment is too hard and forces a very hard law on Irish people and Irish women."

He reminded the Dáil of the amendment's "eloquent" wording.

"It says that the right to life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother, so the right to life of a foetus of only a few days' gestation is equal to the right to life of your mother, your sister or your female friends and co-workers."

Mary Lou didn't want anyone to forget that the people now suddenly aware of the hard cases are the "very same people" who "themselves campaigned against the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill".

Remember, she said, that they talked about "the floodgates" opening and abortion become widely available as a result.

"They were wrong on this matter just as they are wrong now not to acknowledge that the Eighth Amendment blocks any action to legislate for what they call the hard cases. And how do we know this? We know this because we have tried."

To suggest there is another solution is "entirely disingenuous".

Leo Varadkar was alive to the pivoting of the previously unshakeable anti-abortion politicians and activists.

"What I see now, in the dying days, in the final days of this campaign is a tactic, a tactic by the No campaign to try and make out that there is some sort of alternative amendment that we could put into our Constitution," he began, looking across the floor to the Fianna Fáil benches, where a majority of TDs voted against holding a referendum and even more are against repeal.

He had a question for them and the anti-abortion absolutists who now say repeal is not the answer.

'Alternative amendment'

"I would ask those people, 30 years after that amendment was put into our Constitution, why in those 30 years has nobody put forward an alternative amendment that would deal with all of these hard cases? Why, only three days from the vote, are people suddenly raising that as a realistic argument and alternative?"

There was silence in the chamber. The Fianna Fáil TDs who are not backing their leader Micheál Martin's position sat stony-faced. Not a peep out of one of them.

Which is when we contemplated our little chant about them all being very quiet over there.

But the Taoiseach filled the gap, answering for them.

Because what they are scrambling to propose "is not a realistic alternative; it is just a tactic", declared Leo.

"And I believe the Irish people will see through that."

Once again, not a sound from the people who turned a blind eye to the hard cases when they could have acted with reason and compassion. Because they knew in their hearts that the Taoiseach was speaking the truth.

They had 35 years to act on their concerns for women and their babies. Thirty-five years to do something about supporting the hard cases. Thirty-five years to show they care about more than just the fate of the foetus.

But they did nothing.

Now their bluff has been called and compassion is suddenly conjured up for the hard cases, along with more baseless predictions about floodgates opening and the whole country going to hell in a handcart.

They have cried wolf once too often.

Do they seriously expect anyone to believe anything they say anymore?


Well said Miriam Lord.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 23, 2018, 09:08:21 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 23, 2018, 06:08:31 AM
Firstly TBH I think its wrong that a woman in Savita's position are not given an abortion, the sac had burst, there was no possibility that the baby could survive that early.

I'm no legal expert (que the ad hominen) but its a bizarre interpretation of the amendment to say that in her case she should not have been able to terminate the pregnancy.

In fact I would be suspicious that the absolutist interpretation of the amendment was a cynical way to ensure that these cases arise and in do doing so turn a critical mass of public opinion to begrudgingly accepting legislation for unrestricted abortion as the only way to avoid these cases.


Regarding the case of Savita itself... since the sepsis was the likely cause of the miscarriage and was a result of failure of the medical team to identify the cause which was sepsis, it therefore went untreated. The reason it seems is that most of the medical guidelines for miscarriages are piggy backed from other countries that just abort and ask no questions. Ireland needs additional guidelines which have been rectified.

The sepsis was not being treated and this coupled with the continuation of the pregnancy while a fetal heartbeat remained accelerated the condition to the point where it turned it into a fatal condition.

I am open to correction on the case BTW but as far as I can make out these are the events which lead to her death. After this it is all if, buts & maybes


Would Savitta survived if the sepsis had been treated initially with no termination....most likely

Would Savitta have survived if the pregnancy if it had been terminated when the sac ruptured...most likely as it would have allowed the condition to develop more slowly and thereby allow it to be diagnosed before it reached an advanced stage.

I read a bit here and there about her case before now but I must admit the portrayal by the media was somewhat different. Thing is she did die from sepsis, she could and should have been saved if it had been identified when her waters broke and treated at that point... even if she did not have an abortion. An abortion in time could also have saved her (which incidentally I also think she should have got as there was no prospect of the baby surviving).

The medical guidelines have been updated to ensure it never happens again so if a mirror of this case arose the condition would be identified, treatment begun and the pregnancy would be terminated and the mother would have a much higher chance of survival.

Now the way this case has been spun to support the pro choice campaign is completely wrong IMO. To say that removal of the 8th is the only way to save mothers like Savitta is completely incorrect as those changes to the guidelines are already in place.
Going from inadequate medical care and lack of pregnancy guidelines which (is what the report found) caused the death of this woman.....
....to.....
............any woman should have the right to end a pregnancy for any or no reason at a quantum leap jump in logic.

Of course people are using this and other cases to make their point and there is some cherry picking ongoing.  No more than your are not a legal expert, I am not a medical expert.  Reading the HSE report I can't see a definitive statement as to whether sepsis lead to miscarriage or vice versa.  I tried to find some other cases and I found this lady's story:

https://twitter.com/InHerIrishShoes/status/998280875564466177 (https://twitter.com/InHerIrishShoes/status/998280875564466177)

It seems to me that due to the 8th, Irish hospitals have a policy of not intervening until the danger has manifested itself.  A little reading on sepsis in particular shows that this is high risk stuff.  Let's be clear here:  even well managed sepsis cases carry a high risk of death.

So in the context of these cases I do believe that the 8th is an issue and I lean towards the "yes side" interpretation.

Like you I am concerned about the amount of terminations for "other" reasons.   I have though long and hard about this.  I am not convinced that abortion availability is as big a driver in these cases as is portrayed.   People will seek to terminate a pregnancy if they perceive that the outcome will be "bad".   My son has Down Syndrome so it is foremost on my mind.   I would recommend that people watch the documentary "A World without Down Syndrome" by Sally Philips to consider this.   Similar arguments can be made around contraception etc.. For this reason I have an issue with campaigners in this referendum.  To many are obsessed with a single point of principle.  Yes people wanting "a more liberal Ireland" and No keeping us conservative.   Abortion is addressing a plethora of issues and most of these kunts will move on to their next pet project after this.   Few if any hang around to address the issues.  Given that abortion is really already available I think that the issues need to be addressed better, rather than maintaining a ban that is in fact unimplementable.  If we make our society more caring of women (and in particular pregnant women) there will be less "no reason" abortions.

At the end of the day I have decided to look at next Friday's question in isolation.  The eighth amendment puts the rights of an unborn child as on a par with the mother's.  I just can't agree to that.   48hours out and I think I have made up my mind.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 22, 2018, 11:01:03 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 22, 2018, 10:04:20 AM
I was interested in Rudi's claim about Iceland, turns out its pretty much true, not quiet but it seems that IF people find out about their child having DS then they terminate

from 2007 to 2015 every single pregnant woman in Iceland terminated a fetus with Down syndrome following a positive diagnosis

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/behind-the-lens-disappearing-down-syndrome/ you

Another tough one to call, its very different finding out after 3 months to actually having the baby and then finding out

Well no, his post was utter bollocks.

He claimed, as absolute fact, that the youngest person in Iceland with Down's Syndrome was 20. Zero evidence provided. There's no "pretty much true" here at all. He's 100% wrong.

He also claimed that "Clearly they have a cultural policy to eliminate the weakest or those who do not conform to some ideal model" despite the fact it is obvious that each case is an individual decision a) to get the test and then b) to decide whether to terminate or not.

He also then completely whiffed on the nature of Savita Halapanavar's death.

Jesus this is hard work to have an actual debate.

Far enough it wasn't exactly what Rudi said, there are people with DS under 20.

But from that article, across an 8 year period anyone who found out they were carrying a DS baby terminated the pregnancy.

This is one of the arguments from the No side and I would like someone from the YES side to counter it

For the record I'll be voting yes but not because I think its a woman body and therefore her choice, I believe there is a second person involved (three if you include the father which I would, its as much our responsibility)

I also don't buy the FFA, I think this could be legislated for along with the rape/incest cases, messy but it could be done and as I've said before it accounts for less than 1% of pregnancies, thats not how legislation should work

Neither do I buy the argument that women are running the risk of a 14yr sentence, its never been handed down.

I'll be voting yes because I think its better/safer that women who are having abortions can have local care. The abortions will happen anyway, I never knew about abortion pills but if someone (probably young girl) is doing something like that then they need access to medical care. I think it will also help elevate some of the stress from what is already a stressful period
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 09:29:10 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Jesus this is hard work to have an actual debate.

Far enough it wasn't exactly what Rudi said, there are people with DS under 20.

But from that article, across an 8 year period anyone who found out they were carrying a DS baby terminated the pregnancy.

This is one of the arguments from the No side and I would like someone from the YES side to counter it

For the record I'll be voting yes but not because I think its a woman body and therefore her choice, I believe there is a second person involved (three if you include the father which I would, its as much our responsibility)

I also don't buy the FFA, I think this could be legislated for along with the rape/incest cases, messy but it could be done and as I've said before it accounts for less than 1% of pregnancies, thats not how legislation should work

Neither do I buy the argument that women are running the risk of a 14yr sentence, its never been handed down.

I'll be voting yes because I think its better/safer that women who are having abortions can have local care. The abortions will happen anyway, I never knew about abortion pills but if someone (probably young girl) is doing something like that then they need access to medical care. I think it will also help elevate some of the stress from what is already a stressful period

Facts are facts. They're not open to debate or interpretation, unless you're Donald Trump and Kellyanne Conway, so yes you might find it difficult to debate with people who won't tolerate lies and disinformation.

Why are you looking for someone from the Yes side to counter the argument that people in Iceland terminate DS babies? Nobody appears to be disputing it. A significant majority of people have the test done, and of those with a positive diagnosis, almost all abort. Again, facts. That's their right to, under Icelandic law.

As for FFA, it has been shown time and time again that it can't be legislated for. As so many have asked, if it could be, why has nobody in 30+ years proposed it?!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 23, 2018, 09:41:26 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Far enough it wasn't exactly what Rudi said, there are people with DS under 20.

But from that article, across an 8 year period anyone who found out they were carrying a DS baby terminated the pregnancy.

This is one of the arguments from the No side and I would like someone from the YES side to counter it

I can't settle an argument between the Yes and No side as to the veracity of all these statistics but for what's it worth.  I think that there are 4 major factors that drive these stats in Iceland:

1)   Availability of chromosome testing
2)   Availability of abortion
3)   Medical Professionals attitude's to DS
4)   Societal attitudes to DS

Regardless of the 8th amendment, trying to block 1&2 is finger in the dam stuff.  So if LoveBoth and their assorted allies care about people DS, they will work on 3 & 4 regardless of the outcome on Friday.

Now, for a lot of their main spokespeople, this is not something they have shown to do before. 

So you know: this is why Down Syndrome Ireland reacted when Senator Ronan Mullen brought DS up in an article in the Irish Times a few months back.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 23, 2018, 09:51:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on May 23, 2018, 02:43:35 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 22, 2018, 09:41:22 PM
It's amazing to think how far as a country we've come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

WhoooppeeeDooo. Lets celebrate killing children. Aren't we great?



As far as I understand it, legislation as it sits allows for intervention in the case of significant and imminent danger to the mother. The recent fatality was a result of undue delay in taking action. I don't see the need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to rectify this, a clarification from the courts would be sufficient.


I have grave concerns this is a slippery slope to abortion on demand - which I think is a horrible, horrible side-effect of liberalisation (which has in general done untold good) - folks being too quick to put their own rights on a pedestal and damn anyone else it affects.

If (and unfortunately IMO, likely when) the 8th is repealed, who actually thinks the 12 week limit will stay as such for long?

I, and especially you, have no right to decide what a woman does with her own body. People who peddle this idealised version of reality where every pregnancy being brought to term is the right thing to do live in a world the rest of us know to be a fantasy.

We could spend the next two months listing the thousands of situations that make abortion the best of an incredibly hard list of options for a woman to take but I suspect you have little interest in listening to reason based off this emotive post.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 23, 2018, 09:41:26 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Far enough it wasn't exactly what Rudi said, there are people with DS under 20.

But from that article, across an 8 year period anyone who found out they were carrying a DS baby terminated the pregnancy.

This is one of the arguments from the No side and I would like someone from the YES side to counter it

I can't settle an argument between the Yes and No side as to the veracity of all these statistics but for what's it worth.  I think that there are 4 major factors that drive these stats in Iceland:

1)   Availability of chromosome testing
2)   Availability of abortion
3)   Medical Professionals attitude's to DS
4)   Societal attitudes to DS

Regardless of the 8th amendment, trying to block 1&2 is finger in the dam stuff.  So if LoveBoth and their assorted allies care about people DS, they will work on 3 & 4 regardless of the outcome on Friday.

Now, for a lot of their main spokespeople, this is not something they have shown to do before. 

So you know: this is why Down Syndrome Ireland reacted when Senator Ronan Mullen brought DS up in an article in the Irish Times a few months back.

/Jim.

Thanks Jim, good post. I had a conversation with the OH at the weekend about this and what we would do. It would be a tough call for anyone which probably leads towards your point 4 and Iceland v ireland
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 10:18:37 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 09:29:10 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Jesus this is hard work to have an actual debate.

Far enough it wasn't exactly what Rudi said, there are people with DS under 20.

But from that article, across an 8 year period anyone who found out they were carrying a DS baby terminated the pregnancy.

This is one of the arguments from the No side and I would like someone from the YES side to counter it

For the record I'll be voting yes but not because I think its a woman body and therefore her choice, I believe there is a second person involved (three if you include the father which I would, its as much our responsibility)

I also don't buy the FFA, I think this could be legislated for along with the rape/incest cases, messy but it could be done and as I've said before it accounts for less than 1% of pregnancies, thats not how legislation should work

Neither do I buy the argument that women are running the risk of a 14yr sentence, its never been handed down.

I'll be voting yes because I think its better/safer that women who are having abortions can have local care. The abortions will happen anyway, I never knew about abortion pills but if someone (probably young girl) is doing something like that then they need access to medical care. I think it will also help elevate some of the stress from what is already a stressful period

Facts are facts. They're not open to debate or interpretation, unless you're Donald Trump and Kellyanne Conway, so yes you might find it difficult to debate with people who won't tolerate lies and disinformation.

Why are you looking for someone from the Yes side to counter the argument that people in Iceland terminate DS babies? Nobody appears to be disputing it. A significant majority of people have the test done, and of those with a positive diagnosis, almost all abort. Again, facts. That's their right to, under Icelandic law.

As for FFA, it has been shown time and time again that it can't be legislated for. As so many have asked, if it could be, why has nobody in 30+ years proposed it?!

You're mistaking lack of capacity and lack of appetite, theres a massive difference
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 23, 2018, 10:23:34 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 10:18:37 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 09:29:10 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Jesus this is hard work to have an actual debate.

Far enough it wasn't exactly what Rudi said, there are people with DS under 20.

But from that article, across an 8 year period anyone who found out they were carrying a DS baby terminated the pregnancy.

This is one of the arguments from the No side and I would like someone from the YES side to counter it

For the record I'll be voting yes but not because I think its a woman body and therefore her choice, I believe there is a second person involved (three if you include the father which I would, its as much our responsibility)

I also don't buy the FFA, I think this could be legislated for along with the rape/incest cases, messy but it could be done and as I've said before it accounts for less than 1% of pregnancies, thats not how legislation should work

Neither do I buy the argument that women are running the risk of a 14yr sentence, its never been handed down.

I'll be voting yes because I think its better/safer that women who are having abortions can have local care. The abortions will happen anyway, I never knew about abortion pills but if someone (probably young girl) is doing something like that then they need access to medical care. I think it will also help elevate some of the stress from what is already a stressful period

Facts are facts. They're not open to debate or interpretation, unless you're Donald Trump and Kellyanne Conway, so yes you might find it difficult to debate with people who won't tolerate lies and disinformation.

Why are you looking for someone from the Yes side to counter the argument that people in Iceland terminate DS babies? Nobody appears to be disputing it. A significant majority of people have the test done, and of those with a positive diagnosis, almost all abort. Again, facts. That's their right to, under Icelandic law.

As for FFA, it has been shown time and time again that it can't be legislated for. As so many have asked, if it could be, why has nobody in 30+ years proposed it?!

You're mistaking lack of capacity and lack of appetite, theres a massive difference

There was two other abortion referendums in the last twenty five years. The appetite for change has always been ther, it's just directed in the correct way this time.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 23, 2018, 10:28:09 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 10:13:41 AM
Thanks Jim, good post. I had a conversation with the OH at the weekend about this and what we would do. It would be a tough call for anyone which probably leads towards your point 4 and Iceland v ireland

The figures and commentary from Rotunda and Holles Street suggest that we are heading in Icelandic direction for both 3 and 4.  The pace that technology for screening and testing is developing means that this will go way beyond DS.  With the right software and knowledge it's already possible to review an unborn's child DNA at home. 

The ethical choices coming down the line will leave this squabble about the 8th in the halfpenny place.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 23, 2018, 11:12:03 AM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 23, 2018, 10:28:09 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 23, 2018, 10:13:41 AM
Thanks Jim, good post. I had a conversation with the OH at the weekend about this and what we would do. It would be a tough call for anyone which probably leads towards your point 4 and Iceland v ireland

The figures and commentary from Rotunda and Holles Street suggest that we are heading in Icelandic direction for both 3 and 4.  The pace that technology for screening and testing is developing means that this will go way beyond DS.  With the right software and knowledge it's already possible to review an unborn's child DNA at home. 

The ethical choices coming down the line will leave this squabble about the 8th in the halfpenny place.

/Jim.

Removing the 8th means it's an entirely personal decision, as it always should have been. People can lobby for not aborting fetuses with serious conditions but realistically this referendum is the main event when it comes to society peering into a woman's reproductive organs and having a say.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 23, 2018, 11:28:25 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 23, 2018, 11:12:03 AM
Removing the 8th means it's an entirely personal decision, as it always should have been. People can lobby for not aborting fetuses with serious conditions but realistically this referendum the main event when it comes to society peering into a woman's reproductive organs and having a say.

I understand where you are coming from. However, other countries are heading almost full circle.  Cultural and societal drivers (if not legislative ones) are meaning that they are on the verge of compelling women to abort.   This is again "peering into a woman's reproductive organs and having a say".

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 23, 2018, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 20, 2018, 09:46:55 AM
Clearly a sensitive issue, and there are posters on the board who are parents of kids with Down's Syndrome and other serious illnesses, but people are clearly being morons about the "healthy babies" point. Cleary no parent would wish their child to have Down's Syndrome. The fact that those children are subsequently then loved and cherished as much as any other child is completely f**king irrelevant.

You were sick as a child and your parents loved you? Well done. What the flying f**k does that have to do with the next couple facing unwelcome news around the health of their unborn child?

Nothing. I was just relaying my own personal experience. And thanks by the way.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Franko on May 23, 2018, 11:45:03 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 23, 2018, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 20, 2018, 09:46:55 AM
Clearly a sensitive issue, and there are posters on the board who are parents of kids with Down's Syndrome and other serious illnesses, but people are clearly being morons about the "healthy babies" point. Cleary no parent would wish their child to have Down's Syndrome. The fact that those children are subsequently then loved and cherished as much as any other child is completely f**king irrelevant.

You were sick as a child and your parents loved you? Well done. What the flying f**k does that have to do with the next couple facing unwelcome news around the health of their unborn child?

Nothing. I was just relaying my own personal experience. And thanks by the way.

Is there any need to be so perennially angry and foul-mouthed gallsman?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 23, 2018, 08:50:50 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/miriam-lord-stony-faced-silence-from-anti-abortion-absolutists-1.3504884


Well said Miriam Lord.

Wonderful article - devastatingly withering.

The hypocrisy of the No campaign knows no bounds and their arrogance, cruelty and lack of self-awareness is stunning.

They've been wrong, wrong, wrong about everything their whole lives.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 12:34:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 23, 2018, 11:45:03 AM
Is there any need to be so perennially angry and foul-mouthed gallsman?

I'm easily exasperated by idiots and morons.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 23, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
The sooner this referendum is over the better. Jesus it's bitter stuff!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 23, 2018, 04:04:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)

Does that flag represent the views of ALL no voters or just the fvcking idiots who happened to think it was a good idea to fly it?

Does EVERY Yes voter agree with Ruth Coppinger that it is the mothers decision to abort up to and including the date of birth?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 04:18:52 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on May 23, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
The sooner this referendum is over the better. Jesus it's bitter stuff!!

Absolutely, both sides as bad as each other in my opinion. Its depressing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 23, 2018, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 04:04:05 PM




[
Does EVERY Yes voter agree with Ruth Coppinger that it is the mothers decision to abort up to and including the date of birth?

Is this true about Ruth? Shocking yoke if true
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Franko on May 23, 2018, 04:36:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 12:34:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 23, 2018, 11:45:03 AM
Is there any need to be so perennially angry and foul-mouthed gallsman?

I'm easily exasperated by idiots and morons.

That's what stew said too.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 23, 2018, 04:36:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 12:34:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 23, 2018, 11:45:03 AM
Is there any need to be so perennially angry and foul-mouthed gallsman?

I'm easily exasperated by idiots and morons.

That's what stew said too.

I imagine he took quite a bit longer to get to the point.

Then probably forgot about the point and went on a rant about something that was actually against the point, originating from something he saw on the internet about an event ten years ago.

He is a sad loss to this thread.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 23, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
The 8th Amendment came from catholic Taliban

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/may/23/my-budget-flight-to-get-an-abortion-the-story-no-one-in-ireland-wants-to-tell-video
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 23, 2018, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 12:34:09 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 23, 2018, 11:45:03 AM
Is there any need to be so perennially angry and foul-mouthed gallsman?

I'm easily exasperated by idiots and morons.
Stop looking at yourself in the mirror then
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Therealdonald on May 23, 2018, 05:34:33 PM
Astonished that men are still feeling the need to have an opinion on this topic. Youse are all a pile of Civil Service/office worker ginnies. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 04:04:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)

Does that flag represent the views of ALL no voters or just the fvcking idiots who happened to think it was a good idea to fly it?

Does EVERY Yes voter agree with Ruth Coppinger that it is the mothers decision to abort up to and including the date of birth?
You've been proven so wrong on this that I'm surprised you haven't rebranded out of embarrassment. Far right rhetoric and tactics are an integral, indivisible part of the No campaign. There is no equivalence whatsoever here between the campaigns. There is one side to blame for the toxicity of this debate and one side only, as is always the case in Irish referendums of this nature.

Like any dog whistling far right extremist does, you love to downplay anything that would embarrass you and any political campaign you support, so it's no surprise to see you downplay the flying of a flag modelled on the Nazi flag from the most prominent No campaign stand in the country.

Again, this is not some obscure corner of the internet we're talking about here - I repeat - it's the most prominent No campaign stand in the country - in front of the GPO, and the No campaign is proudly flying a flag that was flown by racist scum at Charlottesville.

Add to that yesterday's revelation that the No campaign are using an information network used by a network of far right extremist groups, including the NRA.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Niamh Nic Mathuna's links to the European far right - she has spoken alongside Italian fascists.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Justin Barrett's clear links to neo-Nazis in Germany.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/neo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barrett-admits-attending-far-right-party-meetings-in-italy-germany-1.1098920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Barrett#German_Neo-nazi_link

Add to that the dog whistling, bullying, misogynist, at times racist dog whistling from the hordes of flat earther No supporters on Twitter.

The No campaign have, by definition, an absolutist, extremist position.

Therefore it's not surprising that their campaign is full of the influence of the far right - in their rhetoric, in their tactics, and in their beliefs.

I guess you could call them a "basket of deplorables".

To get respect, you have to earn respect. During this campaign, the No side has done precisely nothing to earn respect and everything to prove they are unworthy of it.

There is no way around the fact that the No campaign is extremist.

Wanting to force a 12 year old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to force a victim of incest to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to deny cancer treatment to pregnant women is an extremist position.

Wanting the state to abandon Irish women is an extremist position.

Voting for all of the above is an extremist position.

The Yes campaign on the other hand couldn't be more mainstream. It's advocating for something every other European country bar Malta has.

It has run a fair and respectful campaign - the polar opposite of its opponents, who have disgraced themselves time and time and time again. It has laid out the facts, put forwards people's personal stories, and shown empathy and compassion.

Ruth Coppinger's personal views on what sort of abortion laws we should have are are irrelevant - but even then I note you refused to provide a link to back up your claim. Coppinger has done a damn sight more for Irish women on her own than the whole of the No campaign put together, by the way.

What have any of the No campaign ever done for Irish women except to try and control them? That's ultimately what it's all about for the No campaign - control.

No more, and long after time.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 23, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
The 8th Amendment came from catholic Taliban

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/may/23/my-budget-flight-to-get-an-abortion-the-story-no-one-in-ireland-wants-to-tell-video
The Taliban is a very apt comparison.

The vast majority of prominent No campaigners long for a return to the sort of Ireland where if a woman didn't want to have sex because she feared she might get pregnant, the husband could complain to the parish priest, who would promptly knock on the door and firmly remind the woman of her "duties as a wife".

They are still in deep mourning that stuff like this is no longer acceptable.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 23, 2018, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 23, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
The 8th Amendment came from catholic Taliban

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/may/23/my-budget-flight-to-get-an-abortion-the-story-no-one-in-ireland-wants-to-tell-video
The Taliban is a very apt comparison.

The vast majority of prominent No campaigners long for a return to the sort of Ireland where if a woman didn't want to have sex because she feared she might get pregnant, the husband could complain to the parish priest, who would promptly knock on the door and firmly remind the woman of her "duties as a wife".

They are still in deep mourning that stuff like this is no longer acceptable.

and when the children of women born out of wedlock sell them off to Americans or molest them
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 06:12:24 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 23, 2018, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 23, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
The 8th Amendment came from catholic Taliban

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/may/23/my-budget-flight-to-get-an-abortion-the-story-no-one-in-ireland-wants-to-tell-video
The Taliban is a very apt comparison.

The vast majority of prominent No campaigners long for a return to the sort of Ireland where if a woman didn't want to have sex because she feared she might get pregnant, the husband could complain to the parish priest, who would promptly knock on the door and firmly remind the woman of her "duties as a wife".

They are still in deep mourning that stuff like this is no longer acceptable.

and when the children of women born out of wedlock sell them off to Americans or molest them
"God's Law" permits baby trafficking by nuns and child sexual abuse by priests, or something.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 23, 2018, 07:19:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 04:04:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)

Does that flag represent the views of ALL no voters or just the fvcking idiots who happened to think it was a good idea to fly it?

Does EVERY Yes voter agree with Ruth Coppinger that it is the mothers decision to abort up to and including the date of birth?
You've been proven so wrong on this that I'm surprised you haven't rebranded out of embarrassment. Far right rhetoric and tactics are an integral, indivisible part of the No campaign. There is no equivalence whatsoever here between the campaigns. There is one side to blame for the toxicity of this debate and one side only, as is always the case in Irish referendums of this nature.

Like any dog whistling far right extremist does, you love to downplay anything that would embarrass you and any political campaign you support, so it's no surprise to see you downplay the flying of a flag modelled on the Nazi flag from the most prominent No campaign stand in the country.

Again, this is not some obscure corner of the internet we're talking about here - I repeat - it's the most prominent No campaign stand in the country - in front of the GPO, and the No campaign is proudly flying a flag that was flown by racist scum at Charlottesville.

Add to that yesterday's revelation that the No campaign are using an information network used by a network of far right extremist groups, including the NRA.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Niamh Nic Mathuna's links to the European far right - she has spoken alongside Italian fascists.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Justin Barrett's clear links to neo-Nazis in Germany.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/neo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barrett-admits-attending-far-right-party-meetings-in-italy-germany-1.1098920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Barrett#German_Neo-nazi_link

Add to that the dog whistling, bullying, misogynist, at times racist dog whistling from the hordes of flat earther No supporters on Twitter.

The No campaign have, by definition, an absolutist, extremist position.

Therefore it's not surprising that their campaign is full of the influence of the far right - in their rhetoric, in their tactics, and in their beliefs.

I guess you could call them a "basket of deplorables".

To get respect, you have to earn respect. During this campaign, the No side has done precisely nothing to earn respect and everything to prove they are unworthy of it.

There is no way around the fact that the No campaign is extremist.

Wanting to force a 12 year old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to force a victim of incest to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to deny cancer treatment to pregnant women is an extremist position.

Wanting the state to abandon Irish women is an extremist position.

Voting for all of the above is an extremist position.

The Yes campaign on the other hand couldn't be more mainstream. It's advocating for something every other European country bar Malta has.

It has run a fair and respectful campaign - the polar opposite of its opponents, who have disgraced themselves time and time and time again. It has laid out the facts, put forwards people's personal stories, and shown empathy and compassion.

Ruth Coppinger's personal views on what sort of abortion laws we should have are are irrelevant - but even then I note you refused to provide a link to back up your claim. Coppinger has done a damn sight more for Irish women on her own than the whole of the No campaign put together, by the way.

What have any of the No campaign ever done for Irish women except to try and control them? That's ultimately what it's all about for the No campaign - control.

No more, and long after time.

Lol-proven wrong by who?     You-?????

I think it will pass and I will be happy if it does, but the only person your kidding is yourself if you think some on the Yes side don't hold extreme views on when and why an abortion can happen
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 08:20:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 07:19:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 04:04:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)

Does that flag represent the views of ALL no voters or just the fvcking idiots who happened to think it was a good idea to fly it?

Does EVERY Yes voter agree with Ruth Coppinger that it is the mothers decision to abort up to and including the date of birth?
You've been proven so wrong on this that I'm surprised you haven't rebranded out of embarrassment. Far right rhetoric and tactics are an integral, indivisible part of the No campaign. There is no equivalence whatsoever here between the campaigns. There is one side to blame for the toxicity of this debate and one side only, as is always the case in Irish referendums of this nature.

Like any dog whistling far right extremist does, you love to downplay anything that would embarrass you and any political campaign you support, so it's no surprise to see you downplay the flying of a flag modelled on the Nazi flag from the most prominent No campaign stand in the country.

Again, this is not some obscure corner of the internet we're talking about here - I repeat - it's the most prominent No campaign stand in the country - in front of the GPO, and the No campaign is proudly flying a flag that was flown by racist scum at Charlottesville.

Add to that yesterday's revelation that the No campaign are using an information network used by a network of far right extremist groups, including the NRA.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Niamh Nic Mathuna's links to the European far right - she has spoken alongside Italian fascists.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Justin Barrett's clear links to neo-Nazis in Germany.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/neo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barrett-admits-attending-far-right-party-meetings-in-italy-germany-1.1098920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Barrett#German_Neo-nazi_link

Add to that the dog whistling, bullying, misogynist, at times racist dog whistling from the hordes of flat earther No supporters on Twitter.

The No campaign have, by definition, an absolutist, extremist position.

Therefore it's not surprising that their campaign is full of the influence of the far right - in their rhetoric, in their tactics, and in their beliefs.

I guess you could call them a "basket of deplorables".

To get respect, you have to earn respect. During this campaign, the No side has done precisely nothing to earn respect and everything to prove they are unworthy of it.

There is no way around the fact that the No campaign is extremist.

Wanting to force a 12 year old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to force a victim of incest to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to deny cancer treatment to pregnant women is an extremist position.

Wanting the state to abandon Irish women is an extremist position.

Voting for all of the above is an extremist position.

The Yes campaign on the other hand couldn't be more mainstream. It's advocating for something every other European country bar Malta has.

It has run a fair and respectful campaign - the polar opposite of its opponents, who have disgraced themselves time and time and time again. It has laid out the facts, put forwards people's personal stories, and shown empathy and compassion.

Ruth Coppinger's personal views on what sort of abortion laws we should have are are irrelevant - but even then I note you refused to provide a link to back up your claim. Coppinger has done a damn sight more for Irish women on her own than the whole of the No campaign put together, by the way.

What have any of the No campaign ever done for Irish women except to try and control them? That's ultimately what it's all about for the No campaign - control.

No more, and long after time.

Lol-proven wrong by who?     You-?????

I think it will pass and I will be happy if it does, but the only person your kidding is yourself if you think some on the Yes side don't hold extreme views on when and why an abortion can happen
Zzzzzzzzz.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Gmac on May 23, 2018, 08:37:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)
did u take the picture?  That flag looks photoshopped
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 23, 2018, 08:46:01 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 23, 2018, 08:37:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)
did u take the picture?  That flag looks photoshopped

As someone who has used Photoshop for years, no it does not.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 23, 2018, 08:48:17 PM
Quote from: Gmac on May 23, 2018, 08:37:06 PMdid u take the picture?  That flag looks photoshopped

Are these photoshopped as well?

https://twitter.com/SeaniieOShea/status/998984259904921600
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2018, 09:02:41 PM
Mods - hopefully ye'll enforce the moratorium and lock this thread at midnight.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 23, 2018, 09:08:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 23, 2018, 09:02:41 PM
Mods - hopefully ye'll enforce the moratorium and lock this thread at midnight.

Not like you to misunderstand something.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 23, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 08:20:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 07:19:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 04:04:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)

Does that flag represent the views of ALL no voters or just the fvcking idiots who happened to think it was a good idea to fly it?

Does EVERY Yes voter agree with Ruth Coppinger that it is the mothers decision to abort up to and including the date of birth?
You've been proven so wrong on this that I'm surprised you haven't rebranded out of embarrassment. Far right rhetoric and tactics are an integral, indivisible part of the No campaign. There is no equivalence whatsoever here between the campaigns. There is one side to blame for the toxicity of this debate and one side only, as is always the case in Irish referendums of this nature.

Like any dog whistling far right extremist does, you love to downplay anything that would embarrass you and any political campaign you support, so it's no surprise to see you downplay the flying of a flag modelled on the Nazi flag from the most prominent No campaign stand in the country.

Again, this is not some obscure corner of the internet we're talking about here - I repeat - it's the most prominent No campaign stand in the country - in front of the GPO, and the No campaign is proudly flying a flag that was flown by racist scum at Charlottesville.

Add to that yesterday's revelation that the No campaign are using an information network used by a network of far right extremist groups, including the NRA.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Niamh Nic Mathuna's links to the European far right - she has spoken alongside Italian fascists.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Justin Barrett's clear links to neo-Nazis in Germany.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/neo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barrett-admits-attending-far-right-party-meetings-in-italy-germany-1.1098920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Barrett#German_Neo-nazi_link

Add to that the dog whistling, bullying, misogynist, at times racist dog whistling from the hordes of flat earther No supporters on Twitter.

The No campaign have, by definition, an absolutist, extremist position.

Therefore it's not surprising that their campaign is full of the influence of the far right - in their rhetoric, in their tactics, and in their beliefs.

I guess you could call them a "basket of deplorables".

To get respect, you have to earn respect. During this campaign, the No side has done precisely nothing to earn respect and everything to prove they are unworthy of it.

There is no way around the fact that the No campaign is extremist.

Wanting to force a 12 year old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to force a victim of incest to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to deny cancer treatment to pregnant women is an extremist position.

Wanting the state to abandon Irish women is an extremist position.

Voting for all of the above is an extremist position.

The Yes campaign on the other hand couldn't be more mainstream. It's advocating for something every other European country bar Malta has.

It has run a fair and respectful campaign - the polar opposite of its opponents, who have disgraced themselves time and time and time again. It has laid out the facts, put forwards people's personal stories, and shown empathy and compassion.

Ruth Coppinger's personal views on what sort of abortion laws we should have are are irrelevant - but even then I note you refused to provide a link to back up your claim. Coppinger has done a damn sight more for Irish women on her own than the whole of the No campaign put together, by the way.

What have any of the No campaign ever done for Irish women except to try and control them? That's ultimately what it's all about for the No campaign - control.

No more, and long after time.

Lol-proven wrong by who?     You-?????

I think it will pass and I will be happy if it does, but the only person your kidding is yourself if you think some on the Yes side don't hold extreme views on when and why an abortion can happen
Zzzzzzzzz.

Believe whatever you want

You can be pro repeal and at the same time find the extreme views of some of the Yes supporters abhorrent
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 23, 2018, 09:56:10 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 23, 2018, 09:02:41 PM
Mods - hopefully ye'll enforce the moratorium and lock this thread at midnight.

When does the moratorium start? I thought today was the last day but apparently an taoiseach is going to be on with pat Kenny in the morning
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:16:49 PM
Eugh. Ronan Mullen is as bad tonight as Katie Ascough was last night.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 23, 2018, 10:25:37 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:16:49 PM
Eugh. Ronan Mullen is as bad tonight as Katie Ascough was last night.
As least Katie is more appealing to the eye.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: laoislad on May 23, 2018, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on May 23, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
The sooner this referendum is over the better. Jesus it's bitter stuff!!
+100
Some awful arseholes on both sides.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 10:35:29 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 08:20:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 07:19:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 23, 2018, 04:04:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 23, 2018, 12:16:11 PM
An alt-right (far right) flag hanging from the most prominent "No" campaign stand in the country yesterday.

The same flag was flown at the neo-Nazi demonstrations in Charlottesville last August.

Nobody has to try and "portray" "No" campaigners as extremists.

They reveal their true leanings all by themselves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd0O2OFV0AAhYW6.jpg)

Does that flag represent the views of ALL no voters or just the fvcking idiots who happened to think it was a good idea to fly it?

Does EVERY Yes voter agree with Ruth Coppinger that it is the mothers decision to abort up to and including the date of birth?
You've been proven so wrong on this that I'm surprised you haven't rebranded out of embarrassment. Far right rhetoric and tactics are an integral, indivisible part of the No campaign. There is no equivalence whatsoever here between the campaigns. There is one side to blame for the toxicity of this debate and one side only, as is always the case in Irish referendums of this nature.

Like any dog whistling far right extremist does, you love to downplay anything that would embarrass you and any political campaign you support, so it's no surprise to see you downplay the flying of a flag modelled on the Nazi flag from the most prominent No campaign stand in the country.

Again, this is not some obscure corner of the internet we're talking about here - I repeat - it's the most prominent No campaign stand in the country - in front of the GPO, and the No campaign is proudly flying a flag that was flown by racist scum at Charlottesville.

Add to that yesterday's revelation that the No campaign are using an information network used by a network of far right extremist groups, including the NRA.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Niamh Nic Mathuna's links to the European far right - she has spoken alongside Italian fascists.

Add to that prominent No campaigner Justin Barrett's clear links to neo-Nazis in Germany.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/neo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barrett-admits-attending-far-right-party-meetings-in-italy-germany-1.1098920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Barrett#German_Neo-nazi_link

Add to that the dog whistling, bullying, misogynist, at times racist dog whistling from the hordes of flat earther No supporters on Twitter.

The No campaign have, by definition, an absolutist, extremist position.

Therefore it's not surprising that their campaign is full of the influence of the far right - in their rhetoric, in their tactics, and in their beliefs.

I guess you could call them a "basket of deplorables".

To get respect, you have to earn respect. During this campaign, the No side has done precisely nothing to earn respect and everything to prove they are unworthy of it.

There is no way around the fact that the No campaign is extremist.

Wanting to force a 12 year old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to force a victim of incest to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is an extremist position by any stretch of the imagination.

Wanting to deny cancer treatment to pregnant women is an extremist position.

Wanting the state to abandon Irish women is an extremist position.

Voting for all of the above is an extremist position.

The Yes campaign on the other hand couldn't be more mainstream. It's advocating for something every other European country bar Malta has.

It has run a fair and respectful campaign - the polar opposite of its opponents, who have disgraced themselves time and time and time again. It has laid out the facts, put forwards people's personal stories, and shown empathy and compassion.

Ruth Coppinger's personal views on what sort of abortion laws we should have are are irrelevant - but even then I note you refused to provide a link to back up your claim. Coppinger has done a damn sight more for Irish women on her own than the whole of the No campaign put together, by the way.

What have any of the No campaign ever done for Irish women except to try and control them? That's ultimately what it's all about for the No campaign - control.

No more, and long after time.

Lol-proven wrong by who?     You-?????

I think it will pass and I will be happy if it does, but the only person your kidding is yourself if you think some on the Yes side don't hold extreme views on when and why an abortion can happen
Zzzzzzzzz.

Believe whatever you want

You can be pro repeal and at the same time find the extreme views of some of the Yes supporters abhorrent

Yes that's where I am too. Voting yes but very uncomfortable with some of the people on "my" side.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 23, 2018, 10:49:23 PM
Rhône Mahony is the Master of Holles St maternit hospital so she knows what she is talking about. Irish women already have abortions. The war is lost.

"Dr Mahony yesterday again called for a Yes vote in the referendum - saying abortion is already in Ireland with the use of pills bought over the internet to end pregnancies.

She also said doctors had to wait until a mother was dying before intervening to terminate a pregnancy to save her life, adding that this must change."


Mullen should be repatriated to the 1930s.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"

What about the woman in the crowd who was abused by the amnesty canvassers.  Both vile acts.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"

What about the woman in the crowd who was abused by the amnesty canvassers.  Both vile acts.

The one who said the GP told her to "pop over to England for an abortion" and said Yes canvassers told her a baby with a fatal foetal abnormality was "dead inside with all bit bits hanging out"?

Yeah, that didn't happen.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 23, 2018, 11:13:29 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"

He's a right gowl
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2018, 11:41:17 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"
Does she not deserve love and respect so?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 23, 2018, 11:42:49 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 23, 2018, 11:41:17 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"
Does she not deserve love and respect so?

Really stooping low with this post, even by your standards.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 24, 2018, 12:01:25 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"

Possibly trumped by his comments on mental health.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 07:14:42 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"

What about the woman in the crowd who was abused by the amnesty canvassers.  Both vile acts.

The one who said the GP told her to "pop over to England for an abortion" and said Yes canvassers told her a baby with a fatal foetal abnormality was "dead inside with all bit bits hanging out"?

Yeah, that didn't happen.

O Gorman admitted it happened and apologised for it or was I dreaming that happened. Point is there are vile people on both sides if this and what's starting to really annoy me is the yes side constantly on about the vile people on the no side while refusing to acknowledge they have been as bad at times.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 24, 2018, 08:00:34 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 23, 2018, 10:49:23 PM
Rhône Mahony is the Master of Holles St maternit hospital so she knows what she is talking about. Irish women already have abortions. The war is lost.

"Dr Mahony yesterday again called for a Yes vote in the referendum - saying abortion is already in Ireland with the use of pills bought over the internet to end pregnancies.

She also said doctors had to wait until a mother was dying before intervening to terminate a pregnancy to save her life, adding that this must change."


Mullen should be repatriated to the 1930s.
how do GRADUATES of the NUI vote for that dinosaur?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 08:56:49 AM
Ultimately it's about trusting women. The Taliban don't want that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 07:14:42 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"

What about the woman in the crowd who was abused by the amnesty canvassers.  Both vile acts.

The one who said the GP told her to "pop over to England for an abortion" and said Yes canvassers told her a baby with a fatal foetal abnormality was "dead inside with all bit bits hanging out"?

Yeah, that didn't happen.

O Gorman admitted it happened and apologised for it or was I dreaming that happened. Point is there are vile people on both sides if this and what's starting to really annoy me is the yes side constantly on about the vile people on the no side while refusing to acknowledge they have been as bad at times.

He said something along the lines of "I'm very sorry that happened to you" and made reference to the training and instruction Yes side volunteers are supposed to undergo. He didn't specifically apologise for the individual things she claimed, which were clearly, at the very least, embellished.

He had no other option - he wasn't going to pull Mullen and lambast a women who had just shared a very personal and emotional story.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: trailer on May 24, 2018, 09:33:40 AM
Peadar Tóibín what's the story there? Interesting that a SF TD is coming out on the Yes side, yet this party is so comfortable with taking life.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 24, 2018, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2018, 09:33:40 AM
Peadar Tóibín what's the story there? Interesting that a SF TD is coming out on the Yes side, yet this party is so comfortable with taking life.

Most inane comment on this thread so far
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 10:09:09 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 07:14:42 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 23, 2018, 10:42:59 PM
Mullen is a disgrace. Young girl in tears telling the story of the time she went to Birmingham for an abortion.

"You deserve love and respect, regardless of what you have done"

What about the woman in the crowd who was abused by the amnesty canvassers.  Both vile acts.

The one who said the GP told her to "pop over to England for an abortion" and said Yes canvassers told her a baby with a fatal foetal abnormality was "dead inside with all bit bits hanging out"?

Yeah, that didn't happen.

O Gorman admitted it happened and apologised for it or was I dreaming that happened. Point is there are vile people on both sides if this and what's starting to really annoy me is the yes side constantly on about the vile people on the no side while refusing to acknowledge they have been as bad at times.

He said something along the lines of "I'm very sorry that happened to you" and made reference to the training and instruction Yes side volunteers are supposed to undergo. He didn't specifically apologise for the individual things she claimed, which were clearly, at the very least, embellished.

He had no other option - he wasn't going to pull Mullen and lambast a women who had just shared a very personal and emotional story.

I don't think it was general like that. The way I heard it he was aware of the specific issue, said that his people know they should not be talking like that and he was sorry for it. Anyway, my main point is that there are some equally vile people on both sides of this thing. I see a lot of bullying on twitter from yes people of genuine normal people who are voting No and I think it is wrong. I see it the other way too but that is already being well publicized by the yes side however they are picking on one or two nutjobs on the No side and claiming that they are indicative of the whole No side.

For me, in a very unscientific way, I have heard many people - friends, neighbours etc, give there reason for a No vote and there are basically 3 things.

1- They feel that at 12 weeks the baby is a living being and they do not want to enable the killing of it
2- They feel that legalising it will increase the numbers of abortions
3- They are worried about Down Syndrome and diability tests withing 12 weeks being used and allowing people to abort babies due to what they might become.

I believe those are all legitimate concerns. The people that hold them are not intolerant monsters.

My personal opinion on each is currently...

1- I probably am uncomfortable about this as I dont know when something is considered a child or not. I know it is not conception and I know it is not after birth. I guess this is down to your personal opinion to decide.
2- Also concerned about this but I remind myself that everyone who wants an abortion can get on a 60 min flight anyway and have one so the point is probably not a point.
3- Worried about this but I consider it will only happen it extremely small amount of cases, at least I hope so.

So in summary I will vote yes but with concerns. I will not be demonising anyone who votes no.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 24, 2018, 10:46:21 AM
It is for those exact 3 reasons Itchy outlined above re no voters, why I'm voting no, with hesitation I might add. The sooner Saturday/Sunday comes the better.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 10:56:58 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-abortion-referendum-irelands-choice-will-have-a-global-impactq2w

This is, as it must be, Ireland's decision. But its impact will not end there. It will be felt first in Northern Ireland, with its own punitive laws, and then globally. The influx of cash from foreign anti-abortion groups shows that the vote must be understood in the context of efforts to roll back rights, from the US to Brazil to Poland. A yes vote would hearten those resisting the pressure, a no vote embolden those trying to ban safe, legal abortions. Moreover, the amendment exports rather than halts abortions. In recent decades more than 150,000 Irish women have travelled to have abortions, mostly to England. Others use smuggled pills, risking prosecution if they subsequently need medical attention.

For the truth is that voters are not deciding whether women should have abortions, but where they have them and under what circumstances. The eighth amendment merely creates unnecessary trauma for women and denies abortion to a small number who are in the most difficult circumstances – unable to travel due to their immigration status, poverty, a controlling partner, or their medical condition. That bar has even proved fatal: Savita Halappanavar died from septicaemia following a miscarriage, having been repeatedly refused an abortion. Though her death led to a new law allowing abortions where the mother's life is at "substantial" risk, the shock it caused nonetheless galvanised the push for more fundamental reform.

These are the uncomfortable realities of the current system. Set against them are of course deeply rooted moral convictions, but also a no campaign fuelled by myths and downright lies. Proposed new legislation would ensure that controls remained on access to abortion. Liberalisation would not result in the widespread abortion of foetuses with Down's syndrome, as doctors have made clear. And it is not only insulting but flagrantly untrue to suggest that women will seek abortion on a whim.

These attempts to twist facts and stoke sentiment reflect a reactionary, cynical populism familiar from the pro-Brexit and Trump campaigns. Save the Eighth campaigners have urged the public not to trust politicians and have painted themselves as brave anti-establishment voices, latching on to a half-truth: for Ireland has indeed undergone a profound shift in its social attitudes, and what was once controversial now looks like common sense to many. In 1983, 67% of voters supported introducing the amendment. This time, the outcome is too close to call. The taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has campaigned for yes, though less vigorously than many had hoped. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 24, 2018, 11:06:34 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 10:56:58 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-abortion-referendum-irelands-choice-will-have-a-global-impactq2w

This is, as it must be, Ireland's decision. But its impact will not end there. It will be felt first in Northern Ireland, with its own punitive laws, and then globally. The influx of cash from foreign anti-abortion groups shows that the vote must be understood in the context of efforts to roll back rights, from the US to Brazil to Poland. A yes vote would hearten those resisting the pressure, a no vote embolden those trying to ban safe, legal abortions. Moreover, the amendment exports rather than halts abortions. In recent decades more than 150,000 Irish women have travelled to have abortions, mostly to England. Others use smuggled pills, risking prosecution if they subsequently need medical attention.

For the truth is that voters are not deciding whether women should have abortions, but where they have them and under what circumstances. The eighth amendment merely creates unnecessary trauma for women and denies abortion to a small number who are in the most difficult circumstances – unable to travel due to their immigration status, poverty, a controlling partner, or their medical condition. That bar has even proved fatal: Savita Halappanavar died from septicaemia following a miscarriage, having been repeatedly refused an abortion. Though her death led to a new law allowing abortions where the mother's life is at "substantial" risk, the shock it caused nonetheless galvanised the push for more fundamental reform.

These are the uncomfortable realities of the current system. Set against them are of course deeply rooted moral convictions, but also a no campaign fuelled by myths and downright lies. Proposed new legislation would ensure that controls remained on access to abortion. Liberalisation would not result in the widespread abortion of foetuses with Down's syndrome, as doctors have made clear. And it is not only insulting but flagrantly untrue to suggest that women will seek abortion on a whim.

These attempts to twist facts and stoke sentiment reflect a reactionary, cynical populism familiar from the pro-Brexit and Trump campaigns. Save the Eighth campaigners have urged the public not to trust politicians and have painted themselves as brave anti-establishment voices, latching on to a half-truth: for Ireland has indeed undergone a profound shift in its social attitudes, and what was once controversial now looks like common sense to many. In 1983, 67% of voters supported introducing the amendment. This time, the outcome is too close to call. The taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has campaigned for yes, though less vigorously than many had hoped.

Excellent point Seafoid, very good post IMO

The comparison to Trump is very apt I think. The attitude of people who were against Trump reminds me of the YES people and this thread has been a perfect example. Their aggressive behaviour is more likely to push middle of the road people away from their point than towards it
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:07:19 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 10:56:58 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-abortion-referendum-irelands-choice-will-have-a-global-impactq2w

Save the Eighth campaigners have urged the public not to trust politicians and have painted themselves as brave anti-establishment voices
Declan Ganley, Maria Steen, David Quinn and Ronan Mullen call themselves "anti-establishment".

While the "establishment", in their world, are:
Savita Halppanavar, Michelle Harte, women made pregnant by rape, women carrying a foetus with a fatal foetal abnormality and who don't want to be reduced to a vessel, the over 170,000 Irish women who travelled for an abortion since 1980, and the thousands of women who have to self-admister abortion at home without medical supervision.

That isn't a Fox News-level of Orwellian bullshit.

It's something way, way beyond that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 11:08:47 AM
The Irish abortion regime and N Ireland are 2 of the biggest hangovers from British colonialism imo. The Irish church that emerged after catholic emancipation in the 1830s was more English Victorian than Irish. It promoted the use of English and had no cultural links to the Irish past. It focused almost entirely on sexuality rather than socio economic issues that were far more important to punters. It never addressed mass immigration. Fought tampons in the 50s. FFS
The mother and baby homes such as the one in Tuam  were based on English workhouses and staffed by religious.
England was the source of all evil and a handy location for offsite abortions.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM
As I said before on the thread, I'll be voting yes.

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

It has also brought home how easily an issue can become globalised, both in terms of funding and coverage, and the pernicious effect that social media has on debate.

It is not a great time for democracy, and I think it is incumbent on all who are casting their votes tomorrow to reflect on how precious it is to be able to do so, without (in the main) intimidation or coercion. It is up to all to make sure we keep it that way, no matter what the issue.

That said, I think there some grounds for optimism. The Citizens Assembly is truly a ground breaking forum and is being studied by political scientists from all over the world. Whether we repeal or not, it has been a really brave experiment in direct democracy.

I also think the Oireachtas Committee tasked with making the recommendations also did a great job, and I think should be an example of the thought and gravitas legislators gave the subject. In general, I think the political class has handled the debate well without undue rancour. It might be a comfort to those who despair of leaving decisions to our politicians, that not many were trying to make hay out of this. This issue transcends partisan politics and in the future, should the 8th be repealed, I hope that attitude influences any proposed legislation.

In the end (and just to qualify, this is all just my opinion), if the 8th is repealed, we may be embarking on a new phase of our life as a republic. It is a bit trite maybe to describe it as being more grown up, but certainly the act of looking at and trying to resolve this issue shows a maturing of our attitudes. No individual ever gets to be the adult person they actually hoped to be - and I know those who wish to save the 8th may abhor the changes that may come. But, we will have changed as a country, aged, and looking at ourselves in a different light. That may be a harsh light, but I honestly think it will be better for us all than the darkness that has surrounded abortion for the past 40 years.

Whoever can vote, get out there and do so, no matter what cause you support - as I said before, the only regret anyone can have in all this is not using their vote.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 24, 2018, 11:27:02 AM
The Oireachtas Committee made a complete ham out of the repeal. On obvious grounds I would vote yes. But what they came up with no.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 11:43:56 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM
As I said before on the thread, I'll be voting yes.

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

It has also brought home how easily an issue can become globalised, both in terms of funding and coverage, and the pernicious effect that social media has on debate.

It is not a great time for democracy, and I think it is incumbent on all who are casting their votes tomorrow to reflect on how precious it is to be able to do so, without (in the main) intimidation or coercion. It is up to all to make sure we keep it that way, no matter what the issue.

That said, I think there some grounds for optimism. The Citizens Assembly is truly a ground breaking forum and is being studied by political scientists from all over the world. Whether we repeal or not, it has been a really brave experiment in direct democracy.

I also think the Oireachtas Committee tasked with making the recommendations also did a great job, and I think should be an example of the thought and gravitas legislators gave the subject. In general, I think the political class has handled the debate well without undue rancour. It might be a comfort to those who despair of leaving decisions to our politicians, that not many were trying to make hay out of this. This issue transcends partisan politics and in the future, should the 8th be repealed, I hope that attitude influences any proposed legislation.

In the end (and just to qualify, this is all just my opinion), if the 8th is repealed, we may be embarking on a new phase of our life as a republic. It is a bit trite maybe to describe it as being more grown up, but certainly the act of looking at and trying to resolve this issue shows a maturing of our attitudes. No individual ever gets to be the adult person they actually hoped to be - and I know those who wish to save the 8th may abhor the changes that may come. But, we will have changed as a country, aged, and looking at ourselves in a different light. That may be a harsh light, but I honestly think it will be better for us all than the darkness that has surrounded abortion for the past 40 years.

Whoever can vote, get out there and do so, no matter what cause you support - as I said before, the only regret anyone can have in all this is not using their vote.
I would agree about the Citizens assembly. It was quite innovative and it gave the politicians the confidence to deal with this issue head on.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 24, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
Gaaboarders
Yes 43.4%
No 37.7%
Undecided 18.9%
Undecideds excluded - 53.5 to 46.5 Yes.

Does that "Sid" ever post on GAA matters?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 24, 2018, 11:55:35 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 23, 2018, 04:18:52 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on May 23, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
The sooner this referendum is over the better. Jesus it's bitter stuff!!

Absolutely, both sides as bad as each other in my opinion. Its depressing.

Honestly, despite some poor contributions from Yes voters on here, they are not the same. From being involved on the ground I can tell you some of the things that aren't publicised would make your eyes water. I think the Yes side, the vast majority, have been very restrained in the face of some shocking carry on.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 12:09:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
Gaaboarders
Yes 43.4%
No 37.7%
Undecided 18.9%
Undecideds excluded - 53.5 to 46.5 Yes.

Does that "Sid" ever post on GAA matters?
He does. He had a great post about the Mayo quest for Shangri La last year
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.
Trump and Brxit were 2 "populist" moments where the plutocrats plamased working class voters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vST61W4bGm8&t=11s
The Republican party are  tearing down worker protections via the Supreme Court. If brexit gos ahead EU worker protection will be dumped.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 24, 2018, 12:25:09 PM
The unfortunate thing is the the public debate is being dominated by people with extreme views

Cora Sherlock and Ronan Mullen would force a 12 year old rape victim to carry a foetus to term and then put it up for adoption

On the other hand Brid Smith and Ruth Coppinger would allow an abortion up to and including the date of birth

I haven't lived in Ireland for almost thirty years but I would imagine 90% of the population find both of those stances equally objectionable. There will always be difficult and extreme cases, but the debate should focus on what happens in 99% of cases
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 24, 2018, 12:51:37 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 24, 2018, 11:27:02 AM
The Oireachtas Committee made a complete ham out of the repeal. On obvious grounds I would vote yes. But what they came up with no.

Again I think you are unaware of the facts. Do you realise the proposals coming from the Oireachtas Committee are more restrictive that those proposed by the Citizens Assembly?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 24, 2018, 01:17:41 PM
Would also say I've seen a lot of nastiness from No crowd long before there was this referendum. Claim to be Christains but their treatment of women is abusive
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 02:09:46 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 24, 2018, 01:17:41 PM
Would also say I've seen a lot of nastiness from No crowd long before there was this referendum. Claim to be Christains but treat their treatment of women is abusive

The Pro Life Campaign's definition of love is cruel

Diarmaid Ferriter: It is a strange kind of love that denies a teenage rape victim an abortion

Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 05:00

Speaking at the unveiling of the Pro Life Campaign's "Love Both" campaign during the week, spokeswoman Caroline Simons said: "Voters who support abortion in limited circumstances need to know that what they hope for with repeal and what they get are two entirely different things."

What astounding arrogance. Simons has decided that those who will vote for the removal of the amendment have no independence of mind and are naive, delusional dupes who will vote next month unaware of the reality of what they are doing and devoid of a capacity for love. She has also decided what they hope for.

Doctors, it would seem, are also to be rendered incapable of autonomous thought if the amendment is removed, as according to Cora Sherlock they, "who are trained to protect life, will suddenly be expected to facilitate the taking of life". Should the amendment be removed, we will live in totalitarian times and no doubt about it.

But at least the Pro Life Campaign is pro-love, so much so that it wants to retain and spread the love. Is this the "love" that resulted in a 14-year-old, suicidal rape victim in 1992 being prevented from leaving the county for an abortion. A a girl, in words conveyed in court, who said, "It is hard to go through the nine months. It is better to end it now than in nine months time?"

Is this the love felt in 2007 by a 17-year-old woman carrying a foetus with anencephaly who sought assistance from the Irish courts for a termination and was spat at and jeered entering and leaving the court?

Is this the "love" Savita Halappanavar felt in 2012 when she presented with back pain in University Hospital Galway, was found to be miscarrying, and died of septicaemia a week later? Her husband, Praveen, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated.

Having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Savita asked for a medical termination. This was refused because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, "this is a Catholic country". She spent another 2½ days "in agony" until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

According to her husband, the doctor "told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn't survive". The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

"Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, "As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything."

Again, on Tuesday morning, as revealed in the testimony of Praveen, the same ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said "I am neither Irish nor Catholic" but they said there was nothing they could do.

Is that what the Pro-Life Campaign considers tough love?

And what about the love felt by a girl deemed to be at risk of suicide who wanted an abortion and was sectioned under the Mental Health Act because her treating psychiatrist said terminating the pregnancy "was not the solution".

In this case, an order was made to detain the girl on the evidence of a psychiatrist who said that while the child was at risk of self-harm and suicide as a result of the pregnancy, "this could be managed by treatment and that termination of pregnancy was not the solution for all the child's problems at this stage".

Or what about the love felt by this woman who gave testimony to the AbortionRights Campaign; with an unwanted pregnancy, she jumped into the Liffey: "I had ruined my life, no one wanted me. I didn't want to be pregnant ... poor and dependent on social welfare. My parents were angry with me for ruining my life, my boyfriend was angry with me and I was utterly disappointed in myself."
In the Liffey water, she was "frozen by the cold and slightly shocked that there was a strong current dragging me downstream".
Shame

She was rescued by a passerby and she found "someone, who knew someone who had had an abortion in Liverpool. I managed to get a number and book a flight... The shame, silence, isolation I have felt by my home country is shocking... I did not want single-mother handouts like the 'love them both' parade harp on about. I didn't want to be pregnant, end of."

The Pro Life Campaign's definition of love is cruelly simplistic; what they claim and what many women have experienced with crisis pregnancies are two entirely different things.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 24, 2018, 01:17:41 PM
Would also say I've seen a lot of nastiness from No crowd long before there was this referendum. Claim to be Christains but treat their treatment of women is abusive
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1u1nnbWIAAlETO.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcRAhnEXUAEsHqx.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdPQagYXUAABQw3.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYu5-LpX4AE28hO.jpg)

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: bennydorano on May 24, 2018, 04:14:13 PM
Gobshites on both sides? Getaway
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:17:45 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on May 24, 2018, 04:14:13 PM
Gobshites on both sides? Getaway

:o

The last resort of a losing side - "but sure they're as bad!!"..
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.

With all due fairness, when is the last time anyone on this board has been convinced of anything by another?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.

With all due fairness, when is the last time anyone on this board has been convinced of anything by another?

Well I was undecided when this all started off and between here, listening to debates and thinking it true myself I went against my base urge to disagree with everything you, Bono and Geldoff say and decided to vote Yes.

Sids implication is that people who vote no are just like arseholes like that McGurk fella. Thats bullshit of course but sure Sid doesnt care as he is just the opposite side of the coin to McGurk
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: bennydorano on May 24, 2018, 04:47:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:17:45 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on May 24, 2018, 04:14:13 PM
Gobshites on both sides? Getaway

:o

The last resort of a losing side - "but sure they're as bad!!"..

Hopefully people with similar mentalities of the likes of Sid & yourself will not damage the Yes vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:50:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.

With all due fairness, when is the last time anyone on this board has been convinced of anything by another?

I presume sid's approach is the same when he's not on gaaboard. And there are definitely a lot of undecided voters on here and elsewhere
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:22:09 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM


Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.
Ultimately though you do have to be a complete nut to consider voting No after engaging with the issues.

I have respect for the position that somebody doesn't like abortion, because I don't like it myself. Nobody does.

I have respect for the choice of a rape victim who decides to carry a resulting pregnancy to term, and respect for the choice of any woman who decides to carry a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality to term.

But I must admit I have no respect whatsoever for the No-supporting position. None. None at all. Because that position is inherently about disrespect and imposition of narrow views on everybody else. It's a position that demands tolerance of intolerance. The old paradox.

I have no respect for that position because by voting No you're supporting:

i) Forcing 12 year old rape victims to give birth against their will
ii) Forcing victims of incest to give birth against their will
iii) Forcing a woman carrying a pregnancy affected by a fatal foetal abnormality to carry that pregnancy to term and act as nothing more than a vessel
iv) Denying pregnant cancer sufferers life-saving treatment
v) Denying basic healthcare such as X-rays to pregnant women or even non-pregnant women until they can prove sufficiently that they are not pregnant
vi) Abandoning women who self-administer abortion in Ireland to a possible nightmarish dilemma beween seeking medical help and risking prison time and not presenting and risking grave health implications
vii) Continuing to stigmatise women who have abortions, thus contributing to mental health problems

In other words, you'd be voting for cruelty, cowardice, delusion and fantasy. It would be a vote for extremism.

To approve of even one of the things I list above would make you a nut. To vote for all seven would be utterly abhorrent.

But there you go. The current constitutional position in this country is abhorrent for women, and it can only be rectified by voting Yes.




Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 05:54:02 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning

Please stop.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 06:23:22 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

Given what we've seen this year, proving rape in a court of law is hardly straight-forward. So then you're likely taking the woman's word on it - this alone is open to obvious abuse, and likely forcing women without the means to travel into making false statements to get a simple medical procedure. That's likely part of the reason the commission's recommendations allows for abortion for without reason up to 12 weeks. It's a conservative and common sense proposal in the realms of abortion legalisation but you'll never hear the no side admit to that fact.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2018, 06:57:39 PM
Article 8 failed completely . Thousands of women choose an abortion every year. Too many women have been forced into grotesque situations. The undoubted energy of the No side should be harnessed for the public good . The public service needs to reformed for example.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 24, 2018, 07:36:58 PM
Alt 40/3/3 a Sheaf.
8ú Least.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 24, 2018, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 08:08:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.

I'm not sure what it is here tbh but it's something that could be legislated for I'd imagine.

Adult women having been raped is obviously a more difficult proposition, even with the proposed changes, she's going to have to present by ~ 11 weeks or she'll be forced to go to the UK regardless.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 08:30:53 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 08:08:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.

I'm not sure what it is here tbh but it's something that could be legislated for I'd imagine.

Adult women having been raped is obviously a more difficult proposition, even with the proposed changes, she's going to have to present by ~ 11 weeks or she'll be forced to go to the UK regardless.

She would have up to 24 weeks if giving birth to a rapist's baby poses a threat to her well-being, which it quite clearly would for the vast majority of women. I highly doubt the woman would need to be verified as suicidal for this to happen, but there would be more gates for abortions between 12 and 24 weeks with two medical professionals having to sign off on it.

Before 12 weeks she wouldn't need to even report she was raped to get an abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 08:38:46 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.
Em, I think you've forgotten about the 8th Amendment. Any such legislation would be impossible with a No vote.

Should the 8th be abolished, legislation for "exceptions" only should be rejected outright.

We don't want a situation where rape victims are effectively put on trial to obtain an abortion.

As well as that, women are entitled to a right to privacy.

The Supreme Court would pick any such legislation apart in no time.

The proposed legislation is the only workable and compassionate solution.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 08:49:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 08:30:53 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 08:08:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.

I'm not sure what it is here tbh but it's something that could be legislated for I'd imagine.

Adult women having been raped is obviously a more difficult proposition, even with the proposed changes, she's going to have to present by ~ 11 weeks or she'll be forced to go to the UK regardless.

She would have up to 24 weeks if giving birth to a rapist's baby poses a threat to her well-being, which it quite clearly would for the vast majority of women. I highly doubt the woman would need to be verified as suicidal for this to happen, but there would be more gates for abortions between 12 and 24 weeks with two medical professionals having to sign off on it.

Before 12 weeks she wouldn't need to even report she was raped to get an abortion.

I guess that's what would happen alright even though it's not spelled out as catering for rape cases. I for one wouldn't have a problem with rape cases being treated like that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: blast05 on May 24, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
Quotei) Forcing 12 year old rape victims to give birth against their will
ii) Forcing victims of incest to give birth against their will
iii) Forcing a woman carrying a pregnancy affected by a fatal foetal abnormality to carry that pregnancy to term and act as nothing more than a vessel
iv) Denying pregnant cancer sufferers life-saving treatment
v) Denying basic healthcare such as X-rays to pregnant women or even non-pregnant women until they can prove sufficiently that they are not pregnant
vi) Abandoning women who self-administer abortion in Ireland to a possible nightmarish dilemma beween seeking medical help and risking prison time and not presenting and risking grave health implications
vii) Continuing to stigmatise women who have abortions, thus contributing to mental health problems

Sid, IF there was a mechanism and a wording that could amend the constitution to address points 1 to 3, would that be an acceptable alternative in your view to address those points rather than repealing the 8th (i haven't been following the thread so perhaps you have already commented on that ... if so, apologies for asking again!)?

Point 4 is a tricky one .... treatment is possible in trimester 2 while early deliver is an option in trimester 3. Therefore it is 'only' a 4-6 week window where there is a medical challenge in very rare cases, i.e.: from identification of pregnancy to end of first trimester. I believe such a scenario should also be possible to address in a constitutional amendment up until such time as medicine evolves to ensure cancer is treatable in the first trimester

I'm not clear on your point #5 ... are you suggesting x-rays should be given without a pregnancy question ?

How would you propose to address #6 given that this is such a big problem in the UK (which is a reasonable reference case to compare to). By and large, i would expect that percentage of those who self-administer today to reduce slightly in the event of a Yes + proposed legislation but for significant numbers to self-administer (privacy, cost, convenience, etc)

I don't understand your point #7. Where is there any stigmatisation today ? How can there be when we have no clinics, etc. And do you think a Yes vote will mean no stigmatisation in future ? The opposite would in fact be the case because undoubtedly you would have nut jobs on the 'yes' side standing outside the inevitable private clinics that would spring up or 'yes' insiders in the HSE leaking info of or whatever else.

All in all, removing the 8th is a step to far for me. I am voting 'No', also because of the culture it will create within 5-10 years. If a way to amend the constitution to address your points # 1 to #4 could be identified then i would campaign for a 'Yes'. And lest anyone comment that the citizens Assembly or Oireachtas committee couldn't find a wording - that was with respect to the wording of the Heads of Bill. They should have been empowered to look at a re-wording of the constitution.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 24, 2018, 09:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

So what you're saying is that it is about as common as an 8 1/2 month pregnant women feigning suiciadal thoughts and aborting a perfectly viable baby......which is exactly the argument Ronan Mullen would have for KEEPING the Eight.   

It can happen, and it probably has happened, but it happens so infrequently that it should not be one of the situations that defines the debate
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 25, 2018, 12:23:58 AM
Anyone pregnant girl 17 or under has been raped in the eyes of the law
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 25, 2018, 07:19:34 AM
Yes 57 No 43 is my prediction.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 07:28:52 AM
So out of interest...

I see there is this hometovote thing going on. Obviously the numbers would likely be too small to make a significant difference to the result but I was wondering

Whats the legality of that? Aren't they non-residents and thereby not eligible to vote?

The elephant in the room of course is the million or so people in the north that are non resident citizens and do not have the right to vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 25, 2018, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 07:28:52 AM
So out of interest...

I see there is this hometovote thing going on. Obviously the numbers would likely be too small to make a significant difference to the result but I was wondering

Whats the legality of that? Aren't they non-residents and thereby not eligible to vote?

The elephant in the room of course is the million or so people in the north that are non resident citizens and do not have the right to vote.

If you were resident within the last 12 months you are eligible to vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 09:03:06 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 07:28:52 AM
So out of interest...

I see there is this hometovote thing going on. Obviously the numbers would likely be too small to make a significant difference to the result but I was wondering

Whats the legality of that? Aren't they non-residents and thereby not eligible to vote?

The elephant in the room of course is the million or so people in the north that are non resident citizens and do not have the right to vote.

No elephant, they shouldn't have a say as they were never a resident.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 25, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 25, 2018, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 07:28:52 AM
So out of interest...

I see there is this hometovote thing going on. Obviously the numbers would likely be too small to make a significant difference to the result but I was wondering

Whats the legality of that? Aren't they non-residents and thereby not eligible to vote?

The elephant in the room of course is the million or so people in the north that are non resident citizens and do not have the right to vote.

If you were resident within the last 12 months you are eligible to vote.

It's more nuanced that that. I think it's 18 months but there must be an intention to return (which is grey/wooly to put it mildly).
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 25, 2018, 09:10:50 AM
Most of them are young lads and girls in the middle of a couple of years away from home. The vast majority will return to Ireland to live and settle down, so of course they are entitled to a say in the future of our country. Fair play to them.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 25, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
Going to sign off for today with this - thank to those who engaged in discussions with me here. I obviously hope you vote yes. I hope you didn't find me too forceful in my opinions. I have strong beliefs but wouldn't want to upset anyone, genuinely.

I hope that when all this is over we can work together for a better Ireland where people's mental and physical health and wellbeing are prioritised first and foremost. Where we have a proper, functioning health service that is free to all and fit for purpose. Where we help people with their mental health and not just ignore and pretend it doesn't exist. It's not survival of the fittest - we're human beings capable of love and empathy and I think this should be our priority. Whatever side of this discussion you're on, if we fix these problems there will be fewer abortions, no matter where they take place.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: laoislad on May 25, 2018, 09:24:34 AM
Good man seanie. I'll be voting No but I can understand also why someone would be voting Yes.
I'm glad it's all over today whatever the outcome.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 09:35:33 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 25, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
Going to sign off for today with this - thank to those who engaged in discussions with me here. I obviously hope you vote yes. I hope you didn't find me too forceful in my opinions. I have strong beliefs but wouldn't want to upset anyone, genuinely.

I hope that when all this is over we can work together for a better Ireland where people's mental and physical health and wellbeing are prioritised first and foremost. Where we have a proper, functioning health service that is free to all and fit for purpose. Where we help people with their mental health and not just ignore and pretend it doesn't exist. It's not survival of the fittest - we're human beings capable of love and empathy and I think this should be our priority. Whatever side of this discussion you're on, if we fix these problems there will be fewer abortions, no matter where they take place.

Well said Seanie and well done.

Brisk trade at my polling station this morning in Dublin West. Sun is splitting the trees, so everything in place for a big turnout.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 09:39:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/floating-voter-debates-the-eighth-with-mcguirk-and-noone-young-men-could-rebel-against-yes-36942319.html
He also said he would discourage a family member from having an abortion if they became pregnant as a result of rape.
"I wouldn't condemn them if they did. I have a friend who was born as a result of a rape and I can't look him in the eye and tell him he shouldn't be here," Mr McGuirk said.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: blast05 on May 25, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
When Michael McDowell was Attorney General in 2002, he proposed an amendment to the 8th....
The subsection shall not invalidate laws enacted by the Oireachtas to permit and regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is alleged in a prescribed form to be the result of a crime committed against the mother

Accepting the difficulties of subsequent legislation for rape, it shows that addressing many scenarios via an amendment could have been quite straight forward.

And Sid, any thoughts on my last post ?

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 25, 2018, 10:17:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 25, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
Going to sign off for today with this - thank to those who engaged in discussions with me here. I obviously hope you vote yes. I hope you didn't find me too forceful in my opinions. I have strong beliefs but wouldn't want to upset anyone, genuinely.

I hope that when all this is over we can work together for a better Ireland where people's mental and physical health and wellbeing are prioritised first and foremost. Where we have a proper, functioning health service that is free to all and fit for purpose. Where we help people with their mental health and not just ignore and pretend it doesn't exist. It's not survival of the fittest - we're human beings capable of love and empathy and I think this should be our priority. Whatever side of this discussion you're on, if we fix these problems there will be fewer abortions, no matter where they take place.

Well said Seanie. I will be voting yes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 10:25:22 AM
One thing that doesn't get enough attention re abortion rates is insightful sex education. Teenagers shouldn't have to learn from porn.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 10:26:02 AM
Quote from: blast05 on May 25, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
When Michael McDowell was Attorney General in 2002, he proposed an amendment to the 8th....
The subsection shall not invalidate laws enacted by the Oireachtas to permit and regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is alleged in a prescribed form to be the result of a crime committed against the mother

Accepting the difficulties of subsequent legislation for rape, it shows that addressing many scenarios via an amendment could have been quite straight forward.

And Sid, any thoughts on my last post ?

Why diodn't the citizens assembly make these recommendations if it was straight forward?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 25, 2018, 10:34:29 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 25, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
Going to sign off for today with this - thank to those who engaged in discussions with me here. I obviously hope you vote yes. I hope you didn't find me too forceful in my opinions. I have strong beliefs but wouldn't want to upset anyone, genuinely.

I hope that when all this is over we can work together for a better Ireland where people's mental and physical health and wellbeing are prioritised first and foremost. Where we have a proper, functioning health service that is free to all and fit for purpose. Where we help people with their mental health and not just ignore and pretend it doesn't exist. It's not survival of the fittest - we're human beings capable of love and empathy and I think this should be our priority. Whatever side of this discussion you're on, if we fix these problems there will be fewer abortions, no matter where they take place.

Well said. I'll be a Yes voter today but absolutely respect the vast majority on the No side who have genuine concerns and will vote No. The extremes on both sides do not represent my opinion. Hope everyone with a vote will use it - it was hard earned.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 25, 2018, 11:19:15 AM
Quote from: blast05 on May 25, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
When Michael McDowell was Attorney General in 2002, he proposed an amendment to the 8th....
The subsection shall not invalidate laws enacted by the Oireachtas to permit and regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is alleged in a prescribed form to be the result of a crime committed against the mother

Accepting the difficulties of subsequent legislation for rape, it shows that addressing many scenarios via an amendment could have been quite straight forward.

And Sid, any thoughts on my last post ?

Maybe from a pure legal point of view but generally proving "a crime committed against the mother" takes the legal system longer than 9 months.  So useless in a practical sense.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 25, 2018, 11:19:15 AM
Quote from: blast05 on May 25, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
When Michael McDowell was Attorney General in 2002, he proposed an amendment to the 8th....
The subsection shall not invalidate laws enacted by the Oireachtas to permit and regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is alleged in a prescribed form to be the result of a crime committed against the mother

Accepting the difficulties of subsequent legislation for rape, it shows that addressing many scenarios via an amendment could have been quite straight forward.

And Sid, any thoughts on my last post ?

Maybe from a pure legal point of view but generally proving "a crime committed against the mother" takes the legal system longer than 9 months.  So useless in a practical sense.

/Jim.

Exactly.

You can imagine the usual nutcases taking action preventing the mother from having a termination on the basis of the above legal loophole. It's not workable.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 10:25:22 AM
One thing that doesn't get enough attention re abortion rates is insightful sex education. Teenagers shouldn't have to learn from porn.

- hardly mentioned in this whole thread and never a platform of the lunatic element of the 'no' campaign. Indeed they are generally opposed to contraception, easy access to sexual health services and even sex education in some cases.

Contraception in The Netherlands: the low abortion rate explained (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7971545)
"The Dutch experience with family planning shows the following characteristics: a strong wish to reduce reliance on abortion, ongoing sexual and contraceptive education related to the actual experiences of the target groups, and low barrier family planning services."
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 12:01:19 PM
Quote from: blast05 on May 24, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
Quotei) Forcing 12 year old rape victims to give birth against their will
ii) Forcing victims of incest to give birth against their will
iii) Forcing a woman carrying a pregnancy affected by a fatal foetal abnormality to carry that pregnancy to term and act as nothing more than a vessel
iv) Denying pregnant cancer sufferers life-saving treatment
v) Denying basic healthcare such as X-rays to pregnant women or even non-pregnant women until they can prove sufficiently that they are not pregnant
vi) Abandoning women who self-administer abortion in Ireland to a possible nightmarish dilemma beween seeking medical help and risking prison time and not presenting and risking grave health implications
vii) Continuing to stigmatise women who have abortions, thus contributing to mental health problems
Quote

QuoteSid, IF there was a mechanism and a wording that could amend the constitution to address points 1 to 3, would that be an acceptable alternative in your view to address those points rather than repealing the 8th (i haven't been following the thread so perhaps you have already commented on that ... if so, apologies for asking again!)?
Absolutely NOT.

Irish women want to be treated the same as they are across the rest of Europe. Yellow pack "solutions" are not good enough.

QuotePoint 4 is a tricky one .... treatment is possible in trimester 2 while early deliver is an option in trimester 3. Therefore it is 'only' a 4-6 week window where there is a medical challenge in very rare cases, i.e.: from identification of pregnancy to end of first trimester. I believe such a scenario should also be possible to address in a constitutional amendment up until such time as medicine evolves to ensure cancer is treatable in the first trimester
We have a multitude of evidence that cancer sufferers have been denied treatment because of the 8th Amendment. And that's the end of that particular debate. The 8th Amendment denies women cancer treatment. That is a fact.

QuoteI'm not clear on your point #5 ... are you suggesting x-rays should be given without a pregnancy question ?
No. I'm saying that pregnant women should not be denied X-rays, as they have been because of the 8th Amendment. We have stories where women who are not even pregnant at all have been forced to wait weeks for X-rays. This is a disgrace.

QuoteHow would you propose to address #6 given that this is such a big problem in the UK (which is a reasonable reference case to compare to). By and large, i would expect that percentage of those who self-administer today to reduce slightly in the event of a Yes + proposed legislation but for significant numbers to self-administer (privacy, cost, convenience, etc)

By oblterating the 8th Amendment and making abortion pills legal, and not making women face a nightmarish dilemma whether to present and risk prison or not present and risk grave health implications, should anything go wrong.

QuoteI don't understand your point #7. Where is there any stigmatisation today ? How can there be when we have no clinics, etc. And do you think a Yes vote will mean no stigmatisation in future ? The opposite would in fact be the case because undoubtedly you would have nut jobs on the 'yes' side standing outside the inevitable private clinics that would spring up or 'yes' insiders in the HSE leaking info of or whatever else.
Here's the spokesman for the Save The 8th campaign. Not only does he acknowledge there is stigmatisation, he wants it to continue. I have't a clue what you're on about in the rest of that passage.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYu5-LpX4AE28hO.jpg)



QuoteAll in all, removing the 8th is a step to far for me. I am voting 'No', also because of the culture it will create within 5-10 years. If a way to amend the constitution to address your points # 1 to #4 could be identified then i would campaign for a 'Yes'. And lest anyone comment that the citizens Assembly or Oireachtas committee couldn't find a wording - that was with respect to the wording of the Heads of Bill. They should have been empowered to look at a re-wording of the constitution.

You're voting against what you claim to be for.

Rationalising a No vote on that basis is like the East German government rationalising the denial of human rights because they fear they will be overthrown and rationalising keeping their people trapped inside the country because they fear they will flee.

You know it's wrong, but you're prepared to enforce indefensible violations of human rights to protect the system at all costs.





Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 09:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

So what you're saying is that it is about as common as an 8 1/2 month pregnant women feigning suiciadal thoughts and aborting a perfectly viable baby......which is exactly the argument Ronan Mullen would have for KEEPING the Eight.   

It can happen, and it probably has happened, but it happens so infrequently that it should not be one of the situations that defines the debate
The only person feigning anything here is you, with your feigned "support" for abolishing the 8th Amendment, which is about as believable as anything Ronan Mullen says.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 12:21:07 PM
Quote from: blast05 on May 25, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
When Michael McDowell was Attorney General in 2002, he proposed an amendment to the 8th....
The subsection shall not invalidate laws enacted by the Oireachtas to permit and regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is alleged in a prescribed form to be the result of a crime committed against the mother

Accepting the difficulties of subsequent legislation for rape, it shows that addressing many scenarios via an amendment could have been quite straight forward.

And Sid, any thoughts on my last post ?
What Michael McDowell proposed in 2002 was to outlaw suicide as a grounds for being a threat to the life of the mother - ie. to tighten the abortion laws (or not, as was the case - because the X Case wasn't legislated for until 2013) and reverse the X Case. This was basically a re-run of the 1992 referendum which was also defeated.

Had it passed, it would not have materially altered the 8th Amendment, it would have returned it to the pre-1992 position in this regard.

Thankfully, it was defeated.

McDowell has obviously changed his views considerably for the better in the meantime.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Billys Boots on May 25, 2018, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 10:25:22 AM
One thing that doesn't get enough attention re abortion rates is insightful sex education. Teenagers shouldn't have to learn from porn.

- hardly mentioned in this whole thread and never a platform of the lunatic element of the 'no' campaign. Indeed they are generally opposed to contraception, easy access to sexual health services and even sex education in some cases.

Contraception in The Netherlands: the low abortion rate explained (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7971545)
"The Dutch experience with family planning shows the following characteristics: a strong wish to reduce reliance on abortion, ongoing sexual and contraceptive education related to the actual experiences of the target groups, and low barrier family planning services."

I didn't get involved in any of this debate, really, but I am voting YES.  I find it outrageous really, that 50% of our population are being forced to remain pregnant when they don't want to be, or don't choose to be.  I don't think abortion is a good thing, but I certainly don't think I should be in a position to force a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant to remain so, whatever the reason, or whatever I personally believe. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 12:34:58 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 25, 2018, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 10:25:22 AM
One thing that doesn't get enough attention re abortion rates is insightful sex education. Teenagers shouldn't have to learn from porn.

- hardly mentioned in this whole thread and never a platform of the lunatic element of the 'no' campaign. Indeed they are generally opposed to contraception, easy access to sexual health services and even sex education in some cases.

Contraception in The Netherlands: the low abortion rate explained (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7971545)
"The Dutch experience with family planning shows the following characteristics: a strong wish to reduce reliance on abortion, ongoing sexual and contraceptive education related to the actual experiences of the target groups, and low barrier family planning services."

I didn't get involved in any of this debate, really, but I am voting YES.  I find it outrageous really, that 50% of our population are being forced to remain pregnant when they don't want to be, or don't choose to be.  I don't think abortion is a good thing, but I certainly don't think I should be in a position to force a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant to remain so, whatever the reason, or whatever I personally believe. 

That is exactly what I would have written if asked about my position.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 09:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

So what you're saying is that it is about as common as an 8 1/2 month pregnant women feigning suiciadal thoughts and aborting a perfectly viable baby......which is exactly the argument Ronan Mullen would have for KEEPING the Eight.   

It can happen, and it probably has happened, but it happens so infrequently that it should not be one of the situations that defines the debate
The only person feigning anything here is you, with your feigned "support" for abolishing the 8th Amendment, which is about as believable as anything Ronan Mullen says.


Believe whatever you want

It's kind of ironic that the some of the logic you use to justify your position is exactly the same logic as Ronan Mullen uses to justify his.   I think it will pass by about 10 points, but you have absolutely done your cause no favors with your antics on here.

There are No voters who are voting No with the very best of intentions and you should respect their decision.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.


Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 01:52:38 PM
Have voted but with misgivings.
Secret ballot so no more to say.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.


Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale
There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 25, 2018, 02:11:30 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.


Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale
There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.


Ehhhh.....I voted for Bernie Sanders (Primary) and Jill Stein(General Election) in 2016, but believe what you want.  Enjoy your victory......but you have become exactly what you accuse the No side of being
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 25, 2018, 02:12:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.


Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale
There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

Sorry - have to break my moratorium. If there is a Yes vote then it's no thanks to people like you. Thankfully, not one person I've met involved in the Yes campaign is like you and that's why we might win. You don't change people's minds by abusing them.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 02:19:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 25, 2018, 02:12:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.


Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale
There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

Sorry - have to break my moratorium. If there is a Yes vote then it's no thanks to people like you. Thankfully, not one person I've met involved in the Yes campaign is like you and that's why we might win. You don't change people's minds by abusing them.
The No side have had 35 long years of dishing out abuse.

I have absolutely NO respect for their views precisely because their views are entirely based on disrespecting and vilfying others in the most damaging way possible.

Fook them.

Their beloved Ireland of squinting windows and Magdalene laundries and marriage bars and women being barred from juries and industrial schools and forced symphysiotomies and gay people being forced to deny who they are and contraceptives being banned and kissing the bishop's ring and corporal punishment and mother and baby homes and paedophile priests and teenage girls giving birth in grottos and ditches with needles and scissors is GONE.

And it's never, ever coming back.





Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.


Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale
There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

WHOW! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRkE_Gv6ALM)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

+1
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 25, 2018, 03:28:45 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 25, 2018, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.


Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale
There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

WHOW! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRkE_Gv6ALM)

LOL-You know hes rattled when he starts throwing out insults

(Just saw on Facebook that in my hometown the Together for Yes Campaign have surrounded a No supporter with signs and arrows  pointed at him because the has the audacity to stand in the Square holding a NO sign.  They're even calling out for reinforcements now)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: screenexile on May 25, 2018, 03:35:05 PM
Yes are winning this aren't they??
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 25, 2018, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 25, 2018, 03:35:05 PM
Yes are winning this aren't they??

I'd say 60-40 Yes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 04:24:17 PM
I think a lot closer than the polls.

Im just sorta goin on the same sex marriage ref. A lot of people will be in the same camp as that but I think there will be a few cross overs mostly in the no direction but the big thing that struck me about that referendum was the turnout in the higher weighed Yes areas. For example Dublin constituencies were high were as rural areas were pretty low. The reason I think because there were a lot of apathetic voters/non-voters.

This would be a different issue completely that will motivate a lot of those voters to get out. For example myself if I had a vote I would probably not have voted in the marriage ref but if I had to vote on it I'd probably have voted yes. However I would be very firmly in the No camp on this one, I might be on my own of course and there isn't too many like me but I think there's more than a few and they will get out to vote. The Yes side are motivated too which will probably carry them over the line but I would not rule out a shock.

Also the polls were way out on the marriage referendum. A lot of them were over 50points in favour of Yes. You'd obviously think there would be adjustments made since that but still they were way out and the polls are much closer than that for this.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

+1

No one imposing anything on people by repealing the 8th. Ultimately women will have a choice over their own bodies, they can choose to exercise it or not if the 8th is repealed AND legislation is passed.

Someones strangers private decision has no impact on you and no one is forcing you (or partner) to have an abortion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: screenexile on May 25, 2018, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

+1

No one imposing anything on people by repealing the 8th. Ultimately women will have a choice over their own bodies, they can choose to exercise it or not if the 8th is repealed AND legislation is passed.

Someones strangers private decision has no impact on you and no one is forcing you (or partner) to have an abortion.

Yeah I don't get that . . . we heard at the time about all these people whose marriage would be "demeaned" if same sex marriage was legalised.

I've yet to hear that term used since the referendum!!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

Eh? Who can honestly say Ireland was better twenty years ago, in any way apart from maybe GAA IC parity? Of all the countries on Earth ours has changed so obviously in positive ways in the last two decades that the sort of nostalgia for the past you're peddling is both fascinating and the reasoning impossible to grasp in any objective way.

Also, to call a vote where the Yes side has a 29 point advantage in the final poll and is likely to win the popular vote in the region of ten percentage points 'imposing' anything shows an incredible level of contempt for the democratic process.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

+1

No one imposing anything on people by repealing the 8th. Ultimately women will have a choice over their own bodies, they can choose to exercise it or not if the 8th is repealed AND legislation is passed.

Someones strangers private decision has no impact on you and no one is forcing you (or partner) to have an abortion.

The Kinahan and Hutch gangs murdering each other has no direct impact on anyone either, they all seem willing to partake in the madness, so should we all just fence of an area and let them at it?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 25, 2018, 04:48:39 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

+1

No one imposing anything on people by repealing the 8th. Ultimately women will have a choice over their own bodies, they can choose to exercise it or not if the 8th is repealed AND legislation is passed.

Someones strangers private decision has no impact on you and no one is forcing you (or partner) to have an abortion.

The Kinahan and Hutch gangs murdering each other has no direct impact on anyone either, they all seem willing to partake in the madness, so should we all just fence of an area and let them at it?

I'd actually be in favour of that! And then arrest the winners.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:50:17 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2018, 04:48:39 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on May 25, 2018, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

+1

No one imposing anything on people by repealing the 8th. Ultimately women will have a choice over their own bodies, they can choose to exercise it or not if the 8th is repealed AND legislation is passed.

Someones strangers private decision has no impact on you and no one is forcing you (or partner) to have an abortion.

The Kinahan and Hutch gangs murdering each other has no direct impact on anyone either, they all seem willing to partake in the madness, so should we all just fence of an area and let them at it?

I'd actually be in favour of that! And then arrest the winners.

I wouldn't say to a sort of Running Man game show.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 04:52:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

Eh? Who can honestly say Ireland was better twenty years ago, in any way apart from maybe GAA IC parity? Of all the countries on Earth ours has changed so obviously in positive ways in the last two decades that the sort of nostalgia for the past you're peddling is both fascinating and the reasoning impossible to grasp in any objective way.

Also, to call a vote where the Yes side has a 29 point advantage in the final poll and is likely to win the popular vote in the region of ten percentage points 'imposing' anything shows an incredible level of contempt for the democratic process.

The homeless population might have something to say about that

You do get how democracy works right.... 50% +1? Just ask the nationalist population in the north if they feel like anything was imposed on them by democracy
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 25, 2018, 04:55:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

Eh? Who can honestly say Ireland was better twenty years ago, in any way apart from maybe GAA IC parity? Of all the countries on Earth ours has changed so obviously in positive ways in the last two decades that the sort of nostalgia for the past you're peddling is both fascinating and the reasoning impossible to grasp in any objective way.

Also, to call a vote where the Yes side has a 29 point advantage in the final poll and is likely to win the popular vote in the region of ten percentage points 'imposing' anything shows an incredible level of contempt for the democratic process.


So if there was a vote in the North to ban the Tricolor and the Catholic Religion and it passed by 10% youd be fine with that?

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:55:59 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 04:52:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

Eh? Who can honestly say Ireland was better twenty years ago, in any way apart from maybe GAA IC parity? Of all the countries on Earth ours has changed so obviously in positive ways in the last two decades that the sort of nostalgia for the past you're peddling is both fascinating and the reasoning impossible to grasp in any objective way.

Also, to call a vote where the Yes side has a 29 point advantage in the final poll and is likely to win the popular vote in the region of ten percentage points 'imposing' anything shows an incredible level of contempt for the democratic process.

The homeless population might have something to say about that

You do get how democracy works right.... 50% +1? Just ask the nationalist population in the north if they feel like anything was imposed on them by democracy

What are you actually on about? An issue where the public literally get to vote for against a proposal is as democratic as it gets. Whatever the result there is no imposition. - your side either won or lost fair and square, simple. Unless you're an anarchist and don't 'do' democracy this is as close to direct action you get.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 05:01:09 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:55:59 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 04:52:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 25, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 25, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
So your vote is a rebellion against old Ireland and has nothing to do with the slaughter of innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
The new Ireland his ilk seem intent on imposing on us isn't looking too wonderful a society either.

Heading off home to vote No later. As with last time I don't expect to be on the winning side but my conscience is clear.

Eh? Who can honestly say Ireland was better twenty years ago, in any way apart from maybe GAA IC parity? Of all the countries on Earth ours has changed so obviously in positive ways in the last two decades that the sort of nostalgia for the past you're peddling is both fascinating and the reasoning impossible to grasp in any objective way.

Also, to call a vote where the Yes side has a 29 point advantage in the final poll and is likely to win the popular vote in the region of ten percentage points 'imposing' anything shows an incredible level of contempt for the democratic process.

The homeless population might have something to say about that

You do get how democracy works right.... 50% +1? Just ask the nationalist population in the north if they feel like anything was imposed on them by democracy

What are you actually on about? An issue where the public literally get to vote for against a proposal is as democratic as it gets. Whatever the result there is no imposistion. - your side either won or lost fair and square, simple. That is unless you're an anarchist and don't 'do' democracy this is as close to direct action you get.

I know well how direct democracy work I live in California where there is vote every 5mins on a whole range of issues the electorate has no clue about

But thats irrelevant to the point... 50%+1 can easily vote to impose something on the other half that how democracy works
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 05:25:29 PM
It is funny that the media focus is on "Yes" versus "No". It is very hard to get either as an answer to a question in Ireland. This is because there is no "yes" or "no" in Irish.
Maybe "Why would I" and "Why wouldn't I" would be closer to the vernacular.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 05:29:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 05:25:29 PM
It is funny that the media focus is on "Yes" versus "No". It is very hard to get either as an answer to a question in Ireland. This is because there is no "yes" or "no" in Irish.
Maybe "Why would I" and "Why wouldn't I" would be closer to the vernacular.

Maybe Aye, Maybe Naw
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 05:30:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.

'There is only what is and that's it. What should be is a dirty lie.'
Lenny Bruce
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
Seaf - you might back me up but is the Gaeilge version on the ballot paper pidgin Irish with its Tá and NFL?
Should it be Toilím/ NI Thoilím? ??
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.

The poor woman.

Better standard of living, massive technological advancements and the horrors of the Catholic Church with its tentacles in all aspects of Irish life starting to fade from living memory. Our economy is fast developing a large high-value services and IT industry that is envied by many of our bigger western neighbours who still struggle with high unemployment. The church's inability to even play much of a role in this referendum speaks volumes for the positive, secular humanism that has came to dominate most younger peoples' outlooks in the last two decades.

People care about others more, at least enough to promote a more inclusive society for LGBTQ, disabled and ethnic minorities. This was barely in exsistence even twenty years ago. It may have been a grand place for a white, able-bodied straight person but please talk to just one person who doesn't conform to that norm and see if they found the Ireland of 1998 or 1988 more welcoming to them.

People are able to get divorced, marry who they like, and hopefully tomorrow will know they can get critical medical care at home too. The days when those in power could shove huge social issues under the carpet are gone. Thankfully.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 25, 2018, 07:02:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.

The poor woman.

Better standard of living, massive technological advancements and the horrors of the Catholic Church with its tentacles in all aspects of Irish life starting to fade from living memory. Our economy is fast developing a large high-value services and IT industry that is envied by many of our bigger western neighbours who still struggle with high unemployment. The church's inability to even play much of a role in this referendum speaks volumes for the positive, secular humanism that has came to dominate most younger peoples' outlooks in the last two decades. People care about others more, at least enough to promote a more inclusive society for LGBTQ, disabled and ethnic minorities. This was barely exsistence even twenty years ago. It may have been a grand place for a white, able-bodied straight person but please talk to just one person who doesn't conform to that norm and see if they found the Ireland of 1998 or 1988 more welcoming to them.

People are able to get divorced, marry who they like, and hopefully tomorrow will know they can get critical medical care at home too. The days when those in power could shove huge social issues under the carpet are gone. Thankfully.

That's great, but you never addressed any of his issues.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 07:03:46 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 25, 2018, 07:02:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.

The poor woman.

Better standard of living, massive technological advancements and the horrors of the Catholic Church with its tentacles in all aspects of Irish life starting to fade from living memory. Our economy is fast developing a large high-value services and IT industry that is envied by many of our bigger western neighbours who still struggle with high unemployment. The church's inability to even play much of a role in this referendum speaks volumes for the positive, secular humanism that has came to dominate most younger peoples' outlooks in the last two decades. People care about others more, at least enough to promote a more inclusive society for LGBTQ, disabled and ethnic minorities. This was barely exsistence even twenty years ago. It may have been a grand place for a white, able-bodied straight person but please talk to just one person who doesn't conform to that norm and see if they found the Ireland of 1998 or 1988 more welcoming to them.

People are able to get divorced, marry who they like, and hopefully tomorrow will know they can get critical medical care at home too. The days when those in power could shove huge social issues under the carpet are gone. Thankfully.

That's great, but you never addressed any of his issues.

I literally answered his question.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 07:05:08 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
Seaf - you might back me up but is the Gaeilge version on the ballot paper pidgin Irish with its Tá and NFL?
Should it be Toilím/ NI Thoilím? ??
Níl a fhios agam. Maybe Aontaim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 07:07:45 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.

The poor woman.

Better standard of living, massive technological advancements and the horrors of the Catholic Church with its tentacles in all aspects of Irish life starting to fade from living memory. Our economy is fast developing a large high-value services and IT industry that is envied by many of our bigger western neighbours who still struggle with high unemployment. The church's inability to even play much of a role in this referendum speaks volumes for the positive, secular humanism that has came to dominate most younger peoples' outlooks in the last two decades. People care about others more, at least enough to promote a more inclusive society for LGBTQ, disabled and ethnic minorities. This was barely exsistence even twenty years ago. It may have been a grand place for a white, able-bodied straight person but please talk to just one person who doesn't conform to that norm and see if they found the Ireland of 1998 or 1988 more welcoming to them.

People are able to get divorced, marry who they like, and hopefully tomorrow will know they can get critical medical care at home too. The days when those in power could shove huge social issues under the carpet are gone. Thankfully.
Shorter Syf. Stop whining about a council house. Haven't you got Facebook..

"The days when those in power could shove huge social issues under the carpet are gone. "

You have no idea how shit the machinery of Government is, young man.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 07:16:03 PM
Definitely pidgin. The question on the paper is "An bhfuil tú ag toiliú leis an togra chun an Bunreacht a leasú atá sa Bhille thiosluaite? So I'd guess the answer should be Táim or Nílim.
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 07:05:08 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
Seaf - you might back me up but is the Gaeilge version on the ballot paper pidgin Irish with its Tá and NFL?
Should it be Toilím/ NI Thoilím? ??
Níl a fhios agam. Maybe Aontaim.

Tá/Níl definitely pidgin. The question on the paper is "An bhfuil tú ag toiliú leis an togra chun an Bunreacht a leasú atá sa Bhille thiosluaite? So I'd guess the answer should be Táim or Nílim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 07:03:46 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 25, 2018, 07:02:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.

The poor woman.

Better standard of living, massive technological advancements and the horrors of the Catholic Church with its tentacles in all aspects of Irish life starting to fade from living memory. Our economy is fast developing a large high-value services and IT industry that is envied by many of our bigger western neighbours who still struggle with high unemployment. The church's inability to even play much of a role in this referendum speaks volumes for the positive, secular humanism that has came to dominate most younger peoples' outlooks in the last two decades. People care about others more, at least enough to promote a more inclusive society for LGBTQ, disabled and ethnic minorities. This was barely exsistence even twenty years ago. It may have been a grand place for a white, able-bodied straight person but please talk to just one person who doesn't conform to that norm and see if they found the Ireland of 1998 or 1988 more welcoming to them.

People are able to get divorced, marry who they like, and hopefully tomorrow will know they can get critical medical care at home too. The days when those in power could shove huge social issues under the carpet are gone. Thankfully.

That's great, but you never addressed any of his issues.

I literally answered his question.

No, you said 1, 2, 3 are great. You never replied about his x, y, & z.

Are you saying the 1,2, & 3 out weigh his x, y, & z?

Or are you just saying its better for certain people?

Or perhaps you just think its better as things are going ok for you and you've read some stories about how terrible it was 20 years ago that made you feel aghast.
But in reality you don't actually really know as you don't have experience of the underbelly of either societies

And I know one you said which I contend to be incorrect and that is that people care more about others now than before.... I really don't think so

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 07:46:27 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 25, 2018, 07:32:28 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 07:16:03 PM
Definitely pidgin. The question on the paper is "An bhfuil tú ag toiliú leis an togra chun an Bunreacht a leasú atá sa Bhille thiosluaite? So I'd guess the answer should be Táim or Nílim.
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 07:05:08 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
Seaf - you might back me up but is the Gaeilge version on the ballot paper pidgin Irish with its Tá and NFL?
Should it be Toilím/ NI Thoilím? ??
Níl a fhios agam. Maybe Aontaim.

Tá/Níl definitely pidgin. The question on the paper is "An bhfuil tú ag toiliú leis an togra chun an Bunreacht a leasú atá sa Bhille thiosluaite? So I'd guess the answer should be Táim or Nílim.
The positive & negative answers to a question starting "An bhfuil" are Tá and Níl. The personal pronoun is not required.

OK.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 07:53:00 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 07:46:27 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 25, 2018, 07:32:28 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 25, 2018, 07:16:03 PM
Definitely pidgin. The question on the paper is "An bhfuil tú ag toiliú leis an togra chun an Bunreacht a leasú atá sa Bhille thiosluaite? So I'd guess the answer should be Táim or Nílim.
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2018, 07:05:08 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
Seaf - you might back me up but is the Gaeilge version on the ballot paper pidgin Irish with its Tá and NFL?
Should it be Toilím/ NI Thoilím? ??
Níl a fhios agam. Maybe Aontaim.
Tá/Níl definitely pidgin. The question on the paper is "An bhfuil tú ag toiliú leis an togra chun an Bunreacht a leasú atá sa Bhille thiosluaite? So I'd guess the answer should be Táim or Nílim.
The positive & negative answers to a question starting "An bhfuil" are Tá and Níl. The personal pronoun is not required.

OK.


The Board's Irish Teachers finally found their niche  :P

Course a natural native speaker would  just know what right and wrong, wouldn't need all this grammar melarky  ;)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 08:06:17 PM
Wouldn't be space on the ball to paper for a native speaker to abswer ;D
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Franko on May 25, 2018, 08:35:38 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
20 years ago me and wifey could afford to buy a houseen Syf.
2 young people of similar jobs/incomes now can't in 90% of the State.
How is that better.
People on low incomes in 1998 were able to get Social housing pretty quickly.
2018......different story.
20 years ago you could get a hospital appointment pretty quickly -now unless you're at death's door you could have to wait up to 2 tears !!!!
Villages had shops and post offices in 1998.
Towns had loads of busy pubs.
But you continue in your little inexperienced (FG supporting?)bubble.

PS I'll concede on the motorway network where it exists.

The poor woman.

Better standard of living, massive technological advancements and the horrors of the Catholic Church with its tentacles in all aspects of Irish life starting to fade from living memory. Our economy is fast developing a large high-value services and IT industry that is envied by many of our bigger western neighbours who still struggle with high unemployment. The church's inability to even play much of a role in this referendum speaks volumes for the positive, secular humanism that has came to dominate most younger peoples' outlooks in the last two decades.

People care about others more, at least enough to promote a more inclusive society for LGBTQ, disabled and ethnic minorities. This was barely in exsistence even twenty years ago. It may have been a grand place for a white, able-bodied straight person but please talk to just one person who doesn't conform to that norm and see if they found the Ireland of 1998 or 1988 more welcoming to them.

People are able to get divorced, marry who they like, and hopefully tomorrow will know they can get critical medical care at home too. The days when those in power could shove huge social issues under the carpet are gone. Thankfully.

Oh dear.  If you actually believe that you're an even bigger fool than we all take you for.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Capt Pat on May 25, 2018, 09:33:12 PM
Will rte have an exit poll at 10 o clock with the likely result?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rois on May 25, 2018, 09:34:05 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on May 25, 2018, 09:33:12 PM
Will rte have an exit poll at 10 o clock with the likely result?
I think it is due on the Late Late show (exit poll).
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 25, 2018, 09:34:49 PM
Quote from: Rois on May 25, 2018, 09:34:05 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on May 25, 2018, 09:33:12 PM
Will rte have an exit poll at 10 o clock with the likely result?
I think it is due on the Late Late show (exit poll).
Yep. 10.30.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 25, 2018, 10:05:09 PM
IT exit poll - it's a landslide for yes - 68/32

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 25, 2018, 10:08:38 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on May 25, 2018, 10:05:09 PM
IT exit poll - it's a landslide for yes - 68/32

Well done to the yes side.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 25, 2018, 10:09:09 PM
 :o
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: screenexile on May 25, 2018, 10:10:14 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on May 25, 2018, 10:05:09 PM
IT exit poll - it's a landslide for yes - 68/32

WOW!!!

Wasn't expecting that kind of margin!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 25, 2018, 10:16:00 PM
Great stuff. A brighter future for the women of Ireland who have been let down for far too long.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 10:17:53 PM
Big generational divide. Only the cohort over 65 voted to keep it. Younger voters in a wave to repeal. I find that fitting- it's their country to remake and renew. Congratulations to the yes side, and commiserations to the no- but it is vital that we try and come together as a country now. The victors need to realise that 32 percent is a large minority to alienate, and in terms of the legislative and governing process, persuasion is always preferable to imposition.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 10:18:07 PM
Absolute landslide. There is no going back now.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 10:17:53 PM
Big generational divide. Only the cohort over 65 voted to keep it. Younger voters in a wave to repeal. I find that fitting- it's their country to remake and renew. Congratulations to the yes side, and commiserations to the no- but it is vital that we try and come together as a country now. The victors need to realise that 32 percent is a large minority to alienate, and in terms of the legislative and governing process, persuasion is always preferable to imposition.

No one is being alienated. This is the country we've chosen to be in the most open and fair way possible. Those on the No side have as much a responsibility to be good losers as the Yes side have to be good winners. What a woman does with her body is no one's business now.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 10:29:51 PM
The point being that we don't want to alienate them. As yes voters we can only look after are own reactions and triumphalism is a bad look, especially around this issue.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 10:43:04 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 10:29:51 PM
The point being that we don't want to alienate them. As yes voters we can only look after are own reactions and triumphalism is a bad look, especially around this issue.

There will be an absolutely natural outpouring of emotion by Yes voters this weekend, I know women who have campaigned for this day since they were fifteen years old. They've travelled a long, long road to this moment.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 10:53:39 PM
You'd start a fight in an empty room. This vote removes an obstacle but it only the start of what will be an always evolving legislative process. As America shows, reproductive rights can always be rolled back. We should always be looking to bring as many people with us as possible, because whilst the constitutional issue is settled for now, the type of abortion regime we have can always be amended under law. The champagne corks can pop all weekend (as they should) but the struggle will still continue Monday.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Wonderful result.

68-32 was beyond anybody's wildest expectations.

I'm thrilled for the women of Ireland and thrilled that the people of Ireland saw through the disgusting, horrible No campaign in such numbers. 

The Ireland that is thankfully gone imagined itself above all as simple, religious and God-fearing in opposition to cruel, Godless England. In reality Ireland was the much crueller place. 

As England threatens to fall into the depths of intolerance and foolishly looks backward, we are now very much the ones looking forward - liberal, tolerant, outward looking, internationalist, welcoming.

We've come of age as a country in so many respects over the last few years.

We can improve in so many more, but overall, we're not a bad little place, really.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: David McKeown on May 25, 2018, 11:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Wonderful result.

68-32 was beyond anybody's wildest expectations.

I'm thrilled for the women of Ireland and thrilled that the people of Ireland saw through the disgusting, horrible No campaign in such numbers. 

The Ireland that is thankfully gone imagined itself above all as simple, religious and God-fearing in opposition to cruel, Godless England. In reality Ireland was the much crueller place. 

As England threatens to fall into the depths of intolerance and foolishly looks backward, we are now very much the ones looking forward - liberal, tolerant, outward looking, internationalist, welcoming.

We've come of age as a country in so many respects over the last few years.

We can improve in so many more, but overall, we're not a bad little place, really.

Whilst i don't entirely disagree i spent the last week in Kilkenny which is the first time I've spent more than a weekend in the south since Brexit and I have to say i got a real undertone from everyone i spoke to that Ireland was a 26 county country that whilst not hostile to Nordies or foreigners was not particularly welcoming to them either.  Numerous people would speak to me with occasional lines such as well in this country x happens or i don't know about your country but we Irish like Y with the clear implication that as I was from Armagh i wasn't as Irish as them and that those who weren't born and bred in the 26 weren't as Irish as them.  A few of my friends had spoken to me previously about similar experiences over the last year or two in other counties. So I am not entirely sure the country is as internationalist or welcoming as it was a few years ago  Perhaps I'm just paranoid though
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 11:09:02 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 10:53:39 PM
You'd start a fight in an empty room. This vote removes an obstacle but it only the start of what will be an always evolving legislative process. As America shows, reproductive rights can always be rolled back. We should always be looking to bring as many people with us as possible, because whilst the constitutional issue is settled for now, the type of abortion regime we have can always be amended under law. The champagne corks can pop all weekend (as they should) but the struggle will still continue Monday.

There is chance of exactly 0% that the Dail doesn't vote in the proposed legislation when 70% of the electorate endorsed it. That would be a super-majority with little precedence in general election terms. If you think they're going to risk pissing off that many people you don't know what sort of rats make the calls in those parties. They vote on what is going to make them most attractive to voters - it's damn well clear what that is now. Don't try to create drama where there is none.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on May 25, 2018, 11:25:54 PM
RTE poll has it even wider - 69.4% to 30.6%

https://twitter.com/rte/status/1000139484774662146
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 11:30:22 PM
You are completely missing the point. The campaign to undermine Roe v Wade in the US has been 30 years in the making, with numerous states stripping back reproductive rights as far as they can without running afoul of the constitution. The addition of another conservative to the supreme court in trumps next years will undoubtedly lead to an attempt to overturn roe v Wade.
To safeguard these hard won rights we should realise that a polarised society is fertile ground for these roll backs. The legislation proposed will pass, but if reaching out a hand in conciliation does anything to ward off a long term insurgency, than it will be worth it. So it is good manners and good policy. Better policy than thinking the world is made anew now, for ever and for good. Amendments can always be proposed again to the constitution.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 11:34:58 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 11:30:22 PM
You are completely missing the point. The campaign to undermine Roe v Wade in the US has been 30 years in the making, with numerous states stripping back reproductive rights as far as they can without running afoul of the constitution. The addition of another conservative to the supreme court in trumps next years will undoubtedly lead to an attempt to overturn roe v Wade.
To safeguard these hard won rights we should realise that a polarised society is fertile ground for these roll backs. The legislation proposed will pass, but if reaching out a hand in conciliation does anything to ward off a long term insurgency, than it will be worth it. So it is good manners and good policy. Better policy than thinking the world is made anew now, for ever and for good. Amendments can always be proposed again to the constitution.

This isn't America, and nor was Roe v. Wade a popular endorsement of abortion rights, it was a court case decided by a handful of judges. Look at other European countries and tell me there has been meaningful rowing back once this rubicon was crossed. You don't come back from a 40 point deficit with a strong hand to play when trying to force concessions.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 25, 2018, 11:50:11 PM
At the time of roe v wade and into the late 70s abortion was a settled issue in American life. There was broad bi partisan support for some form of reproductive rights.
The roll back began with the rise of the evangelical right. So despite the fact that abortion still commands a majority of public support, a zealous minority are now seriously threatening its continuation in the states.
So, there is no drama here, or panic. Just three observations
1. Those who voted no legitimately participated in our democracy, and it is good manners and policy to make sure that we continually try to persuade them of the validity of our arguments in the future.
2. A committed 30 percent, or even fewer, can still effectively stymie the wishes of the majority, as America teaches us. If you think we are immune to that happening here, you have obviously missed the importation of US style dark money and social media tactics during this and other referendums..Just because they didn't work this time, does not mean they won't be tried again.
3. Learn how to take yes for an answer. I am clearly talking about a much longer term situation than the immediate passing of the promised legislation, so please, crack open a beer, have a sip, and give the arguments a rest for a night.

Sweet dreams.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 12:33:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Wonderful result.

68-32 was beyond anybody's wildest expectations.

I'm thrilled for the women of Ireland and thrilled that the people of Ireland saw through the disgusting, horrible No campaign in such numbers. 

The Ireland that is thankfully gone imagined itself above all as simple, religious and God-fearing in opposition to cruel, Godless England. In reality Ireland was the much crueller place. 

As England threatens to fall into the depths of intolerance and foolishly looks backward, we are now very much the ones looking forward - liberal, tolerant, outward looking, internationalist, welcoming.

We've come of age as a country in so many respects over the last few years.

We can improve in so many more, but overall, we're not a bad little place, really.

Is that your speech for when you enter Miss World?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 12:52:55 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 12:33:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Wonderful result.

68-32 was beyond anybody's wildest expectations.

I'm thrilled for the women of Ireland and thrilled that the people of Ireland saw through the disgusting, horrible No campaign in such numbers. 

The Ireland that is thankfully gone imagined itself above all as simple, religious and God-fearing in opposition to cruel, Godless England. In reality Ireland was the much crueller place. 

As England threatens to fall into the depths of intolerance and foolishly looks backward, we are now very much the ones looking forward - liberal, tolerant, outward looking, internationalist, welcoming.

We've come of age as a country in so many respects over the last few years.

We can improve in so many more, but overall, we're not a bad little place, really.

Is that your speech for when you enter Miss World?

For someone who tries to make one line quips a lot I'm amazed at how poor all of them are.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 12:53:35 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 12:33:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Wonderful result.

68-32 was beyond anybody's wildest expectations.

I'm thrilled for the women of Ireland and thrilled that the people of Ireland saw through the disgusting, horrible No campaign in such numbers. 

The Ireland that is thankfully gone imagined itself above all as simple, religious and God-fearing in opposition to cruel, Godless England. In reality Ireland was the much crueller place. 

As England threatens to fall into the depths of intolerance and foolishly looks backward, we are now very much the ones looking forward - liberal, tolerant, outward looking, internationalist, welcoming.

We've come of age as a country in so many respects over the last few years.

We can improve in so many more, but overall, we're not a bad little place, really.

Is that your speech for when you enter Miss World?
Funny you mention Miss World.

We heard plenty of interventions from men in dresses over the course of the campaign, and they were all on the No side. But Ireland pays no heed to the clergy anymore.

We had an intervention last night from men in sashes. And it's no surprise to see the likes of you hand in glove with the Orange Order.

Backward morons like you and your ilk been have been fooking routed in Ireland today, and the only thing that can rival the joy at this result is the hilarity that the likes of you have been driven up the wall with rage at it.

Don't worry - there's a crumb of comfort for you, in that belief in a flat earth is increasing - so if that's anything to go by, you may have a chance to vote on this issue again!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 01:10:52 AM
One thing that was proved beyond doubt today is that the so called "silent majority" were anything but silent, and very, very far from a majority.

Let's hope this is the end of the I Own Her "Institute", the Life "Institute" and all the other fake "institutes" set up by the fundamentalist Catholic reactionary right.

The influence they've had in Irish media over the last two decades has been a very unfunny joke, given that they're a tiny, fringe group pushing extremist views.

The word "Institute" conjures up images of a place of learning. In reality these entities foment extreme ignorance. "Institution" would be a much more accurate description for them, as in asylum - which is ironic given the shameful way they denigrate mental health as something that genuinely affects people.





Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 05:07:08 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.

I'll be as polite as humanly possible in my response - fûck off.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 26, 2018, 06:48:00 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 05:07:08 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.

I'll be as polite as humanly possible in my response - fûck off.

So much for respecting others opinions and being welcoming.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2018, 06:56:08 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Wonderful result.

68-32 was beyond anybody's wildest expectations.

I'm thrilled for the women of Ireland and thrilled that the people of Ireland saw through the disgusting, horrible No campaign in such numbers. 

The Ireland that is thankfully gone imagined itself above all as simple, religious and God-fearing in opposition to cruel, Godless England. In reality Ireland was the much crueller place. 

As England threatens to fall into the depths of intolerance and foolishly looks backward, we are now very much the ones looking forward - liberal, tolerant, outward looking, internationalist, welcoming.

We've come of age as a country in so many respects over the last few years.

We can improve in so many more, but overall, we're not a bad little place, really.

[/quote]
It''s a good result but should have happened a long time ago. In the big picture sexual rights are cheap. It doesnt cost anything to
recognise gay marriage or abortion rights and the church is downsizing anyway.
Economic rights are much harder to achieve. Civil rights are too. The "Deep.State" is incompetznt. The country needs to be reformed from the bottom up .
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 26, 2018, 07:51:57 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.

It'll be difficult for you to take your foot off women's necks.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Aaron Boone on May 26, 2018, 08:38:54 AM
On a general level, exit polls are good idea but with the big margin then no tension for today's count.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 26, 2018, 08:51:43 AM
Happy the yes side won, surprised by the margin. Hopefully both sides can behave now with a bit of dignity but as can be seen here already that's unlikely.

The size of the result means that your average fianna fail and fine Gael politician can now come out from hiding safe in the knowledge they know what way the wind is blowing
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: tonto1888 on May 26, 2018, 08:56:34 AM
Brilliant news of the exit polls are correct
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 26, 2018, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 26, 2018, 08:51:43 AM
Hopefully both sides can behave now with a bit of dignity but as can be seen here already that's unlikely.

your average fianna fail and fine Gael politician can now come out from hiding safe in the knowledge they know what way the wind is blowing
Well said on both points by a dignified poster.
2 in particular could grow up and comply with your wishes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 10:07:12 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 12:53:35 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 12:33:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 25, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Wonderful result.

68-32 was beyond anybody's wildest expectations.

I'm thrilled for the women of Ireland and thrilled that the people of Ireland saw through the disgusting, horrible No campaign in such numbers. 

The Ireland that is thankfully gone imagined itself above all as simple, religious and God-fearing in opposition to cruel, Godless England. In reality Ireland was the much crueller place. 

As England threatens to fall into the depths of intolerance and foolishly looks backward, we are now very much the ones looking forward - liberal, tolerant, outward looking, internationalist, welcoming.

We've come of age as a country in so many respects over the last few years.

We can improve in so many more, but overall, we're not a bad little place, really.

Is that your speech for when you enter Miss World?
Funny you mention Miss World.

We heard plenty of interventions from men in dresses over the course of the campaign, and they were all on the No side. But Ireland pays no heed to the clergy anymore.

We had an intervention last night from men in sashes. And it's no surprise to see the likes of you hand in glove with the Orange Order.

Backward morons like you and your ilk been have been fooking routed in Ireland today, and the only thing that can rival the joy at this result is the hilarity that the likes of you have been driven up the wall with rage at it.

Don't worry - there's a crumb of comfort for you, in that belief in a flat earth is increasing - so if that's anything to go by, you may have a chance to vote on this issue again!

I'm in cahoots with the orange order, the Catholic Church, and the flat earthers? Did I not tell you I seen Elvis yesterday? You can throw me in with that crowd too. That's about all categories covered  ::)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 10:09:10 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.

Yup, that's about right.

There's no way back now.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 26, 2018, 10:18:53 AM
Surprised at the margin of victory but congratulations to the Yes side on a well fought campaign.

I thought the undecideds would break towards No, but they seem to have broken heavily towards Yes.

The situation as it stood, could not continue. It legitimately (no pun intended) put womens lives in danger.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 11:37:18 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.
On the contrary, Ireland has finally decided to step up and take responsibility.

This result was all about us being responsible a country.

One more reason to be thrilled with this result is that Ireland has faced down a full blown barrage of Trump-style tactics and utterly routed them.

That's a very, very good reflection on us as a society.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 11:40:32 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 10:07:12 AM


I'm in cahoots with the orange order, the Catholic Church, and the flat earthers? Did I not tell you I seen Elvis yesterday? You can throw me in with that crowd too. That's about all categories covered  ::)
No, you didn't see Elvis - Elvis only became known in the 1950s, whereas you're living in the 1850s.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 11:43:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 11:37:18 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.
On the contrary, Ireland has finally decided to step up and take responsibility.

This result was all about us being responsible a country.

One more reason to be thrilled with this result is that Ireland has faced down a full blown barrage of Trump-style tactics and utterly routed them.

That's a very, very good reflection on us as a society.

Come back to me in a few short years when Ireland's abortion rate is akin to Britain's, and tell me the same thing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 11:45:08 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 11:40:32 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 10:07:12 AM


I'm in cahoots with the orange order, the Catholic Church, and the flat earthers? Did I not tell you I seen Elvis yesterday? You can throw me in with that crowd too. That's about all categories covered  ::)
No, you didn't see Elvis - Elvis only became known in the 1950s, whereas you're living in the 1850s.

Heh heh, good one!  ::)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 11:49:24 AM
Time now for the six counties to step up and give abortion rights to all Irish women.

Time to demolish the bible-thumping insanity of the DUP.

Norn Iron is the last bastion of backwardness in western Europe.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 26, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
That is their proudest boast !!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 26, 2018, 12:03:11 PM
Is time Catholic Church butted right out of Irish life and let schools give the teenagers full contraceptive education... shower of maniacs in tunics shaming young people about sex and natural desires.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 12:05:53 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 26, 2018, 06:48:00 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 05:07:08 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
Ashamed to call myself irish today after seeing the expected result

May god have mercy on those who voted yes. Let the era of no personal responsibility commence. Look at the utopia Britain has become.

I'll be as polite as humanly possible in my response - fûck off.

So much for respecting others opinions and being welcoming.

I hope you mean the person I was was replying to, otherwise this post really is tone deaf Farr..
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 12:08:24 PM
Great stuff

Next step is to get religion out of schools

It has no place having control over our education system in a modern republic
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:13:26 PM
Let's throw an abortion party! Said no one ever! I despair at the 'let's be more like the UK' attitude of people from the South, #racetothebottom. The floodgates are now open
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:13:26 PM
Let's throw an abortion party! Said no one ever! I despair at the 'let's be more like the UK' attitude of people from the South, #racetothebottom. The floodgates are now open

A sore loser even thought you didn't even vote. Kind of perfect. No one is going to be losing much sleep over your moralising.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: highorlow on May 26, 2018, 01:17:36 PM
I was undecided until the other night and the debates, yer man Mullen swayed me to yes.

He is an extremist individual.

Hopefully some amendments to the legislation are put in.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 26, 2018, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:13:26 PM
Let's throw an abortion party! Said no one ever! I despair at the 'let's be more like the UK' attitude of people from the South, #racetothebottom. The floodgates are now open

DUP poster rages on GAA Board
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:24:37 PM
Can't wait til the next referendum for fathers who no longer want to pay child support! #mywalletmychoice would never vote for DUP but at least u know what you are getting with them! Some amount of politicians have 'taken the soup' over the past while
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: highorlow on May 26, 2018, 01:17:36 PM
I was undecided until the other night and the debates, yer man Mullen swayed me to yes.

He is an extremist individual.

Hopefully some amendments to the legislation are put in.

Hopefully extending the length of abortion without reporting a reason.

If you think there will be concessions based on the most empathic Yes vote imaginable you're just setting yourself up to complain when the Dail passes exactly what it said it would pass before the vote.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:13:26 PM
Let's throw an abortion party! Said no one ever! I despair at the 'let's be more like the UK' attitude of people from the South, #racetothebottom. The floodgates are now open

A sore loser even thought you didn't even vote. Kind of perfect. No one is going to be losing much sleep over your moralising.
[/quote


Says the hero member on a discussion board.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 26, 2018, 02:26:38 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on May 26, 2018, 02:06:04 PM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:24:37 PM...would never vote for DUP but at least u know what you are getting with them!...
I agree, a vote for the DUP is a vote for a shower of corrupt c*nts.

That opposes equal marriage, women's rights. Sound familiar
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
The DUP aren't the only ones to oppose such issues. Lots from both sides of the community does too. So, it's pretty childish to lump a gaa board poster in with the DUP, just because they oppose the abortion referendum.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
The DUP aren't the only ones to oppose such issues. Lots from both sides of the community does too. So, it's pretty childish to lump a gaa board poster in with the DUP, just because they oppose the abortion referendum.

He didn't just oppose the referendum result. Not like you to get something wrong, though.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:04:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
The DUP aren't the only ones to oppose such issues. Lots from both sides of the community does too. So, it's pretty childish to lump a gaa board poster in with the DUP, just because they oppose the abortion referendum.

He didn't just oppose the referendum result. Not like you to get something wrong, though.

I wasn't addressing any post in particular. If I was, I'd have included a quote in my post.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 03:10:52 PM
Quote from: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 01:13:26 PM
Let's throw an abortion party! Said no one ever! I despair at the 'let's be more like the UK' attitude of people from the South, #racetothebottom. The floodgates are now open
The laws in the republic on abortion will not be the same as the UK
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:18:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:04:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
The DUP aren't the only ones to oppose such issues. Lots from both sides of the community does too. So, it's pretty childish to lump a gaa board poster in with the DUP, just because they oppose the abortion referendum.

He didn't just oppose the referendum result. Not like you to get something wrong, though.

I wasn't addressing any post in particular. If I was, I'd have included a quote in my post.

So you weren't referring to the poster who was compared to the DUP. Riiiight.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:30:22 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:18:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:04:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
The DUP aren't the only ones to oppose such issues. Lots from both sides of the community does too. So, it's pretty childish to lump a gaa board poster in with the DUP, just because they oppose the abortion referendum.

He didn't just oppose the referendum result. Not like you to get something wrong, though.

I wasn't addressing any post in particular. If I was, I'd have included a quote in my post.

So you weren't referring to the poster who was compared to the DUP. Riiiight.

If you care to look back over the last couple of pages, you will find that it was sid who brought up the DUP first.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:30:22 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:18:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:04:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
The DUP aren't the only ones to oppose such issues. Lots from both sides of the community does too. So, it's pretty childish to lump a gaa board poster in with the DUP, just because they oppose the abortion referendum.

He didn't just oppose the referendum result. Not like you to get something wrong, though.

I wasn't addressing any post in particular. If I was, I'd have included a quote in my post.

So you weren't referring to the poster who was compared to the DUP. Riiiight.

If you care to look back over the last couple of pages, you will find that it was sid who brought up the DUP first.

Please stop digging.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 04:05:44 PM
Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 04:09:05 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:30:22 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:18:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 03:04:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
The DUP aren't the only ones to oppose such issues. Lots from both sides of the community does too. So, it's pretty childish to lump a gaa board poster in with the DUP, just because they oppose the abortion referendum.

He didn't just oppose the referendum result. Not like you to get something wrong, though.

I wasn't addressing any post in particular. If I was, I'd have included a quote in my post.

So you weren't referring to the poster who was compared to the DUP. Riiiight.

If you care to look back over the last couple of pages, you will find that it was sid who brought up the DUP first.

Please stop digging.

Yes, clever argument.

How about responding to my original point?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:15:36 PM
If you voted yes watch this video and honestly tell me afterwards that you're proud of your decision.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/9768/ben-shapiro-destroys-abortion-argument-no-more-amanda-prestigiacomo

No more hiding behind euphemisms - it is murder of another life. That's what the yes camp will be celebrating today.

Ireland was a place that once had a conscience and a moral compass. Not any more.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:17:54 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 04:05:44 PM
Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.

My father was told by a Fianna Fail politician recently that Ireland needs another 3-4 million people "to make it prosper"

We've just introduced abortion to cull numbers of irish citizens.

Join the dots.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2018, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 04:05:44 PM
Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.
Is abortion enough to get you singing GSTQ or is it a pox on both their houses ?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 04:38:20 PM
The rut of troll/twát accounts appearing in this thread after Ireland chose compassion over dogma is something to behold. GAABoard never fails to let itself down.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 26, 2018, 04:57:08 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 04:15:36 PM
If you voted yes watch this video and honestly tell me afterwards that you're proud of your decision.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/9768/ben-shapiro-destroys-abortion-argument-no-more-amanda-prestigiacomo

No more hiding behind euphemisms - it is murder of another life. That's what the yes camp will be celebrating today.

Ireland was a place that once had a conscience and a moral compass. Not any more.

A moral compass taking babies off their mothers to sell to rich Americans or throwing them into a pit in Tuam, raping children and  still covering it up. Treating women as underclass. No more Savitas. Your Ireland is over.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 26, 2018, 05:43:35 PM
An emphatic result. I voted No, but it was a very difficult decision. Even though 'my side' lost, and lost comprehensively, I am happy for women who find themselves in horrible situations, and will now be able to avail of terminations.

I'm not comfortable at all with with proposed legislation about the 12 weeks, but I suppose the people have spoken, and even if I don't like it, that's what democracy is. I love my country, and the vast majority of her people,  and I am proud of the high turnout, and of the stories of people coming home to vote for something they really believe in.

In my conscience, I voted that preserving the flawed status quo was better than elective abortions. I, and my conscience, are in a significant minority on this, c'est la vie. It's not the end of the world. People are generally good, and women are generally kind and compassionate. I know anyone who makes this horrendous choice will not do so lightly, despite some of the more hysterical elements of the No Campaign. Even though I'm uncomfortable with elements of the proposed law, all in all I am happy that democracy has spoken, and thank God we have the chance to do so.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 04:05:44 PM
Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.
Great, if it means less people like yourself
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 26, 2018, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 04:05:44 PM
Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.
Let me guess, mate.

"White genocide", or something?  ;D
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 05:50:21 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 26, 2018, 04:57:08 PM
A moral compass taking babies off their mothers to sell to rich Americans or throwing them into a pit in Tuam, raping children and  still covering it up. Treating women as underclass. No more Savitas. Your Ireland is over.

That is not happening in current day. Stop using that as an excuse.

And your answer to this is to give people the option to murder their baby. Is that not exactly the same as throwing them in a pit??  but you want to call it progress???

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on May 26, 2018, 06:16:24 PM
This referendum has nothing to do with the church. It's about the future murder/ genocide of innocent babies. The yes side celebrating their win is deeply disturbing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 06:24:52 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh link=topic=28613.msg1810780#msg1810780
date=1527347144

Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.
Great, if it means less people like yourself
The feeling is mutal.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 06:33:10 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 26, 2018, 06:16:24 PM
This referendum has nothing to do with the church. It's about the future murder/ genocide of innocent babies. The yes side celebrating their win is deeply disturbing.
Your tears must be so bitter
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2018, 06:34:57 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 26, 2018, 06:16:24 PM
This referendum has nothing to do with the church. It's about the future murder/ genocide of innocent babies. The yes side celebrating their win is deeply disturbing.
It was about where abortion happens, Rudi. The 8th Amendment exported abortion..
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The_geezer on May 26, 2018, 06:40:50 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 04:05:44 PM
Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.
Great, if it means less people like yourself

Will be interesting to see if this decision by sinn fein did have any effect on any potential border poll. Mary lou and Michelle o Neill do indeed show that women can't be trusted!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 06:42:00 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 06:33:10 PM
Quote from: Rudi on May 26, 2018, 06:16:24 PM
This referendum has nothing to do with the church. It's about the future murder/ genocide of innocent babies. The yes side celebrating their win is deeply disturbing.
Your tears must be so bitter

It says a lot when the Yes side can't actually respond sensibly to statements like this. It's like they are trying not to admit to themselves that abortion doesn't actually involve the taking of a human life.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 26, 2018, 07:07:32 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 05:50:21 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 26, 2018, 04:57:08 PM
A moral compass taking babies off their mothers to sell to rich Americans or throwing them into a pit in Tuam, raping children and  still covering it up. Treating women as underclass. No more Savitas. Your Ireland is over.

That is not happening in current day. Stop using that as an excuse.

And your answer to this is to give people the option to murder their baby. Is that not exactly the same as throwing them in a pit??  but you want to call it progress???

It would be if the church could have continued it and yes the cover-ups continue to emerge. It was that 'murder' rhetoric saw the No campaign hammered. No humanity or understanding of women's rights whatsoever.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 26, 2018, 07:08:44 PM
This ref wasn't about stopping terminations. Irish women travel to England everyday. They import pills which they buy online and may use other methods to terminate a pregnancy. These methods can be unsafe.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2018, 07:26:53 PM
I would have a lot of sympathy for the posters who voted no in good faith. It can't be easy losing today. However I think on balance this was the right result. Article 8 was hypocrisy, exporting the problem to pagan England. And McGuirk is odious.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 07:31:37 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on May 26, 2018, 07:08:44 PM
This ref wasn't about stopping terminations. Irish women travel to England everyday. They import pills which they buy online and may use other methods to terminate a pregnancy. These methods can be unsafe.

"Can be". What about the likes of Savita who died because of the draconian abortion laws, or women spending weeks watching their terminal unborn babies slowly die (and risk sepsis and death themselves) when a simple procedure could solve the issue and lessen the already horrible burden on the woman. The ref was about basic medical care.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 26, 2018, 07:47:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 07:31:37 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on May 26, 2018, 07:08:44 PM
This ref wasn't about stopping terminations. Irish women travel to England everyday. They import pills which they buy online and may use other methods to terminate a pregnancy. These methods can be unsafe.

"Can be". What about the likes of Savita who died because of the draconian abortion laws, or women spending weeks watching their terminal unborn babies slowly die (and risk sepsis and death themselves) when a simple procedure could solve the issue and lessen the already horrible burden on the woman. The ref was about basic medical care.

My reply was in relation to the genocide comment. Many agree with the basic medical care element of the ref but not with termination up to 12 weeks but they still voted yes others votes no despite agreeing with basic medical care but Felt stronger about 12 myth on demand.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2018, 07:56:00 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on May 26, 2018, 07:47:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 07:31:37 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on May 26, 2018, 07:08:44 PM
This ref wasn't about stopping terminations. Irish women travel to England everyday. They import pills which they buy online and may use other methods to terminate a pregnancy. These methods can be unsafe.

"Can be". What about the likes of Savita who died because of the draconian abortion laws, or women spending weeks watching their terminal unborn babies slowly die (and risk sepsis and death themselves) when a simple procedure could solve the issue and lessen the already horrible burden on the woman. The ref was about basic medical care.

My reply was in relation to the genocide comment. Many agree with the basic medical care element of the ref but not with termination up to 12 weeks but they still voted yes others votes no despite agreeing with basic medical care but Felt stronger about 12 myth on demand.

Yes, I'd agree with that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 26, 2018, 11:37:51 PM
The 12 week proposal is just that, a proposal. It still has to get through the Dail. The 8th amendment is gone by the will of the people and we no longer will have to export our healthcare.
Ideally we will now provide proper sex education, contraceptive advice, maximum suppirt to those women with crisis pregnancies, pregnancies that put our wifes, sisters and daughters at risk through uncertainty of procedures by medical staff.
And of course if Harris and Varadkar think we will forget about hospital trollies, cervical cancer scandals, homelessness etc they will get a rude awakening
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 27, 2018, 04:24:28 AM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 26, 2018, 06:24:52 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 26, 2018, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh link=topic=28613.msg1810780#msg1810780
date=1527347144

Irish people will be in the minority in their own Country by 2050. This knew law will just speed things up. As someone who is from the North and for the first time ever I've said this, I hope we never have a United Ireland.
Great, if it means less people like yourself
The feeling is mutal.
No offence, mate, but you sound like a complete fruitcake with serious issues.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 27, 2018, 06:22:05 AM
Quote from: longballin link=t'opic=28613.msg1810808#msg1810808 date=1527358052
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 26, 2018, 05:50:21 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 26, 2018, 04:57:08 PM
A moral compass taking babies off their mothers to sell to rich Americans or throwing them into a pit in Tuam, raping children and  still covering it up. Treating women as underclass. No more Savitas. Your Ireland is over.

That is not happening in current day. Stop using that as an excuse.

And your answer to this is to give people the option to murder their baby. Is that not exactly the same as throwing them in a pit??  but you want to call it progress???

It would be if the church could have continued it and yes the cover-ups continue to emerge. It was that 'murder' rhetoric saw the No campaign hammered. No humanity or understanding of women's rights whatsoever.

I'll ask you to clarify because to me your hypocrisy is breathtaking. You are calling out the church for murdering children in the past but in the present you are advocating the murder of children by individuals?

Please tell me how there is a difference.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 07:15:08 AM
Any books on the history of NI before it all went arseways in the late 60s cover the smug postwar attitude of unionists to the alien jusisdiction below Newry. NI had social welfare and motorways. NI had divorce.
Taigistan had none of those.
Now Shangri-la is the one looking old fashioned.

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/abortion-referendum-likely-to-put-pressure-on-northern-ireland-politicians
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyHarp on May 27, 2018, 08:50:00 AM
Given the opportunity,  I most likely would have voted yes on balance but with a very heavy heart and with a lot of personal soul searching about the morality of it all. But I am hugely disappointed about the outpouring of glee, joy and in some cases smugness about the result. Yes, this is a welcome step forward for the rights of women but it has very serious consequences. The abortion of an unborn baby, regardless of the arguments around the legitimacy of when it becomes life, is a very grave thing and not something to be dancing in the streets about. So hopefully the country can move forward from this with a bit of class from both sides.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 27, 2018, 09:50:56 AM
I'm very pleased with the result and like everyone, pretty surprised by the margin. I think it's the right result for many reasons. Those who opposed the removal of the 8th amendment are simply saying they don't want it on our turf (unless they oppose the right to travel which I'm sure some do but wouldn't say because of how crazy that is). When the people who voted sat down and thought it through based on facts and the testimonies of many women they knew the 8th had to go. There is no alternative that deals with the so-called hard cases and the 11th hour pretence by the No side that there are solutions was cynical lies that were seen through.

Regarding the celebration - I didn't see anything excessive. Some people have been battling for this result for over 40 years suffering insults and sometimes worse. Even myself who was only involved in the campaign for the last few weeks got abuse and witnessed some awful carry on. Overall though it was a brilliant experience working with people who are driven and determined and willing to go that extra mile. I think they're well entitled to celebrate the result when they've invested so much in getting this result. These people are fully aware of the graveness of the issue and would wish no one ever had to have an abortion. They're not celebrating abortion, they're celebrating rights.

A few decent posts on here since the result and fair play to those posters but some pretty depressing stuff too.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 27, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
Vote is over, the people have decided.
Move on.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 27, 2018, 01:47:15 PM
http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2018/05/26/no-side-to-tirelessly-campaign-for-vulnerable-children-from-now-on/

AFTER unsuccessfully campaigning against the repeal of the 8th amendment leading No Side figures have announced a drastic change in direction and focus, stating they will from now on actually campaign for help and support for the vulnerable children Ireland has living in the country.

Extending that focus to increasing supports to pregnant women, women, rape victims, women who have suffered miscarriages, single parents and poor parents, these No Side campaigners have confirmed a significant change in where their energies will be focused going forward.

"We previously campaigned against divorce, equal marriage, and even tried to challenge giving welfare payments to single mothers while never ever actively trying to help or raise awareness for children in foster homes or awaiting adoption, in fact we campaigned against the Childrens Rights Referendum. God, we were a right bunch of cu.nts altogether," explained one campaigner.

Those familiar No Side faces that graced TVs, radios and print publications when campaigning against divorce, equal marriage and the repeal of the 8th amendment, will now appear on TV panels begging for more money and resources to be poured into helping vulnerable children, going as far as to campaign tirelessly for homeless children, refugee children trying to assimilate into Ireland, as well as relentlessly highlighting the plight of children in Direct Provision Centres.

"Now, we might have grumbled and fought against the Church having to pay child victims of sexual abuse but honestly we're really going to get into this whole helping vulnerable children thing from now on," added a campaigner, who after bringing up Down Syndrome every chance he got during the campaign, will now presumably carry out extensive and tireless work for DS children, demanding better educational supports and funding.

"I know we insinuated mental health wasn't real but we'll now throw our full support behind organisations that advocate for better child mental health services. And yes, we sort of suggested we'd force rape victims to remain pregnant against their will but we'll fully support the work of the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland. Look, we're surprised as anyone," concluded the campaigner, who forgot to mention once again what a cu.nt he has been for the last several decades.

Caring about children once they are born is a massive direction change for Catholic conservative campaigners however, such a startling development is sure to be welcomed by everyone.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 27, 2018, 03:24:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 27, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
Vote is over, the people have decided.
Move on.

History tells us they will have another go.

Then again, they've already got their "right" answer.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 04:19:04 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 27, 2018, 03:24:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 27, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
Vote is over, the people have decided.
Move on.

History tells us they will have another go.

Then again, they've already got their "right" answer.

No quotation marks needed. You only need to look at the demographics of this vote to see how impossible the No side's position is. It's only going to get worse as those over 65s who voted No die off.

There no going back in our lifetimes so that's yet another misguided post by you.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: BennyCake on May 27, 2018, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 04:19:04 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 27, 2018, 03:24:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 27, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
Vote is over, the people have decided.
Move on.

History tells us they will have another go.

Then again, they've already got their "right" answer.

No quotation marks needed. You only need to look at the demographics of this vote to see how impossible the No side's position is. It's only going to get worse as those over 65s who voted No die off.

There no going back in our lifetimes so that's yet another misguided post by you.

All 723,000+ of them?!  ::)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 27, 2018, 04:51:20 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 27, 2018, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 04:19:04 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 27, 2018, 03:24:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 27, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
Vote is over, the people have decided.
Move on.

History tells us they will have another go.

Then again, they've already got their "right" answer.

No quotation marks needed. You only need to look at the demographics of this vote to see how impossible the No side's position is. It's only going to get worse as those over 65s who voted No die off.

There no going back in our lifetimes so that's yet another misguided post by you.

All 723,000+ of them?!  ::)

Grow old and die is generally the way things go, yes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
According to RTE most people made their mind up after Savita H died.
No didn't lose on Friday. The war was lost 5 years ago.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 27, 2018, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
According to RTE most people made their mind up after Savita H died.
No didn't lose on Friday. The war was lost 5 years ago.

Regardless of the No campaigns assertion that Savita died from Sepsis, she would never have gotten sepsis if she had gotten the proper care to begin with

The head midwife flat out told her, they couldn't end the pregnancy because Ireland was a Catholic country and abortion wasn't allowed.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
According to RTE most people made their mind up after Savita H died.
No didn't lose on Friday. The war was lost 5 years ago.

Their poll literally said the opposite of what you just wrote. They had their minds made up before the Savita case even happened. Lay off whatever is it that you're on.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Orchard park on May 27, 2018, 09:00:35 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on May 27, 2018, 08:50:00 AM
Given the opportunity,  I most likely would have voted yes on balance but with a very heavy heart and with a lot of personal soul searching about the morality of it all. But I am hugely disappointed about the outpouring of glee, joy and in some cases smugness about the result. Yes, this is a welcome step forward for the rights of women but it has very serious consequences. The abortion of an unborn baby, regardless of the arguments around the legitimacy of when it becomes life, is a very grave thing and not something to be dancing in the streets about. So hopefully the country can move forward from this with a bit of class from both sides.

It's the right to chose not the right to abort that has been celebrated......

The Irish people finally faced up to facts and devided it was  shit poor legislation which encouraged exporting the abortion issue to the UK....... allowing and encouraging something  are very different states of play
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
According to RTE most people made their mind up after Savita H died.
No didn't lose on Friday. The war was lost 5 years ago.

Their poll literally said the opposite of what you just wrote. They had their minds made up before the Savita case even happened. Lay off whatever is it that you're on.

Give it up, Syf. The board is littered with your nonsense. It''s wall to wall ràiméis. If Galway beat Ros in the CF you'll disappear again for 2 months.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 27, 2018, 09:41:34 PM
It would nearly be worth losing it to get 2 months free from his drivel.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
According to RTE most people made their mind up after Savita H died.
No didn't lose on Friday. The war was lost 5 years ago.

Their poll literally said the opposite of what you just wrote. They had their minds made up before the Savita case even happened. Lay off whatever is it that you're on.

Give it up, Syf. The board is littered with your nonsense. It''s wall to wall ràiméis. If Galway beat Ros in the CF you'll disappear again for 2 months.

I really don't know who you think you're fooling.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Avondhu star on May 27, 2018, 11:30:45 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
According to RTE most people made their mind up after Savita H died.
No didn't lose on Friday. The war was lost 5 years ago.

Their poll literally said the opposite of what you just wrote. They had their minds made up before the Savita case even happened. Lay off whatever is it that you're on.

Give it up, Syf. The board is littered with your nonsense. It''s wall to wall ràiméis. If Galway beat Ros in the CF you'll disappear again for 2 months.

I really don't know who you think you're fooling.
Haven't you some sheep need dipping?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: fearbrags on May 28, 2018, 02:58:28 AM
"It would nearly be worth losing it to get 2 months free from his drivel."" I 2nd that ;)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: johnnycool on May 28, 2018, 08:24:35 AM
The last two referenda in the South shines a light on how the Catholic Church and its doctrine has lost its stranglehold on Ireland, probably more than I'd imagined.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:31:45 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 28, 2018, 08:24:35 AM
The last two referenda in the South shines a light on how the Catholic Church and its doctrine has lost its stranglehold on Ireland, probably more than I'd imagined.

+1

Is it possible that some part of the voting is actually driven by some voters wanting to put the Church in its place as much being supportive of the Yes vote?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:40:24 AM
The real test will be FG's ability to bring in legislation to allow abortion to be carried out and how limited the legislation will be.

TDs will be looking over their shoulders at the electorate before voting on legislation given the proximity of an election.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:40:24 AM
The real test will be FG's ability to bring in legislation to allow abortion to be carried out and how limited the legislation will be.

TDs will be looking over their shoulders at the electorate before voting on legislation given the proximity of an election.

The proposed legislation is there and can be read by anyone. The politicians will press ahead with that, given the massive mandate they have received.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 28, 2018, 08:57:18 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:31:45 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 28, 2018, 08:24:35 AM
The last two referenda in the South shines a light on how the Catholic Church and its doctrine has lost its stranglehold on Ireland, probably more than I'd imagined.

+1

Is it possible that some part of the voting is actually driven by some voters wanting to put the Church in its place as much being supportive of the Yes vote?

It's both, because the Eighth Amendment and the agenda to stop same sex marriage were both inextricably tied to the Roman Catholic church.

Pretty much every rule which infringed people's rights in this country has been inextricably tied to the Roman Catholic Church.

Pretty much every negative social convention which unjustly stigmatised people in this country was inextricably tied to the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church's influence on Ireland has been overwhelmingly negative.

My primary motivation for voting Yes was that women's basic human rights were disgracefully infringed by the Eighth Amendment and that had to change.

Giving a firm two fingers to the Roman Catholic Church, who have proved themselves to be an enemy of the people, was a very welcome by-product of that vote.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 09:18:22 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:40:24 AM
The real test will be FG's ability to bring in legislation to allow abortion to be carried out and how limited the legislation will be.

TDs will be looking over their shoulders at the electorate before voting on legislation given the proximity of an election.

The proposed legislation is there and can be read by anyone. The politicians will press ahead with that, given the massive mandate they have received.

Except most FF supporters voted No and this puts pressure on their TDs who were mostly No.

The practicalities of legislation are the reality of the situation as all medical organisations now will have a say and medics begin to assess their roles on the frontline of provision.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 09:22:50 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 09:18:22 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:40:24 AM
The real test will be FG's ability to bring in legislation to allow abortion to be carried out and how limited the legislation will be.

TDs will be looking over their shoulders at the electorate before voting on legislation given the proximity of an election.

The proposed legislation is there and can be read by anyone. The politicians will press ahead with that, given the massive mandate they have received.

Except most FF supporters voted No and this puts pressure on their TDs who were mostly No.

The practicalities of legislation are the reality of the situation as all medical organisations now will have a say and medics begin to assess their roles on the frontline of provision.

Where did you see most FF supporters voted no Owen? Given the 66/33 result, I'd be amazed if any party had a majority voting No? I think a No vote was basewd on philosophical grounds rather than party politics.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 09:40:22 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 28, 2018, 08:24:35 AM
The last two referenda in the South shines a light on how the Catholic Church and its doctrine has lost its stranglehold on Ireland, probably more than I'd imagined.
The cultural identity formed after 1922 is no longer valid. Diarmuid Ferriter the historian was on Radio 1 talking about it a while ago. It was catholic, absolute and based on opposition to Englishness. Irish identity is more nuanced that that in reality. Loads of things have changed. Even QE2 speaking Irish in Dublin.

Bit more tricky in NI where education is catholic and identity is formed in opposition to the alien identity of the state.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 28, 2018, 09:52:36 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 09:22:50 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 09:18:22 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:40:24 AM
The real test will be FG's ability to bring in legislation to allow abortion to be carried out and how limited the legislation will be.

TDs will be looking over their shoulders at the electorate before voting on legislation given the proximity of an election.

The proposed legislation is there and can be read by anyone. The politicians will press ahead with that, given the massive mandate they have received.

Except most FF supporters voted No and this puts pressure on their TDs who were mostly No.

The practicalities of legislation are the reality of the situation as all medical organisations now will have a say and medics begin to assess their roles on the frontline of provision.

Where did you see most FF supporters voted no Owen? Given the 66/33 result, I'd be amazed if any party had a majority voting No? I think a No vote was basewd on philosophical grounds rather than party politics.

I think the RTE exit poll did state that the majority of voters who said they'd vote FF in a GE voted No. However, several FF TD's that campaigned for a No vote have stated over the weekend that they'll support the legislation and the will of the people. To be fair - who would these FF "No" TD's be looking over their shoulder at? Renua? I know the anti-choice side have said they'll keep this as an issue at every election but hard to see how they will.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 09:53:06 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 09:22:50 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 09:18:22 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 08:40:24 AM
The real test will be FG's ability to bring in legislation to allow abortion to be carried out and how limited the legislation will be.

TDs will be looking over their shoulders at the electorate before voting on legislation given the proximity of an election.

The proposed legislation is there and can be read by anyone. The politicians will press ahead with that, given the massive mandate they have received.

Except most FF supporters voted No and this puts pressure on their TDs who were mostly No.

The practicalities of legislation are the reality of the situation as all medical organisations now will have a say and medics begin to assess their roles on the frontline of provision.

Where did you see most FF supporters voted no Owen? Given the 66/33 result, I'd be amazed if any party had a majority voting No? I think a No vote was basewd on philosophical grounds rather than party politics.

From Jounal.ie

A breakdown of the RTÉ exit poll found that young people voted overwhelmingly in favour of repealing the abortion ban.
Here's a breakdown of who voted:
72.1% of women voted Yes
65.9% of men voted Yes
87.6% of 18-24 year olds voted Yes
84.6% of 25-34 year olds voted Yes
72.8% of 35-49 year olds voted Yes
63.7% of 50-64 year olds voted Yes
58.7% of those aged over 65 voted No

A breakdown of the supporters of political parties and how they voted is as follows:
Fine Gael 74.9% Yes
Fianna Fáil 50.3% No
Sinn Féín 74.5% Yes
Labour 80% Yes
Green Party 88% Yes
Independents 72% Yes
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 09:55:04 AM
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Surprised at that to be honest. Although I suppose FF's vote has collapsed in Dublin, so it's probably a more rural vote, which was closer in most cases anyway I think.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 09:55:11 AM
This poses serious questions for FF as FG performance has given it the progressive label.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 28, 2018, 09:56:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 09:55:04 AM
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Surprised at that to be honest. Although I suppose FF's vote has collapsed in Dublin, so it's probably a more rural vote, which was closer in most cases anyway I think.

Also I think the conservative element of FG's support has left them and gone to FF. Since the Lucinda breakaway.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 09:56:58 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 28, 2018, 09:55:11 AM
This poses serious questions for FF as FG performance has given it the progressive label.

I think that's why MM made the speech he did, and caught his on parliamentary party with their pants down.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 28, 2018, 10:02:40 AM
Fianna Fail TDs have no choice now but to accept the proposed legislation.

They'll be signing their own political death warrant by not doing so.

The next election is probably no more than a year away. As a party, they have no future by retreating to social conservatism. There is no market in Irish politics for it.

In five or ten years' time, if you ask the people whether they still support the abolition of the 8th Amendment, the answer will likely be something like 90-10 Yes.

A lot of the rise in the Yes vote since the 2015 referendum can be explained by natural wastage. Social conservatives are literally dying off.

Fianna Fail's vote is dying off with them.









Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 28, 2018, 10:53:42 AM
FG are progressive?

I give you... James Bannon
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 28, 2018, 11:09:50 AM
Fine Gael has had a progressive wing always, epitomised by Garret Fitzgerald's term as leader.

Social liberals seem to be on the ascendant now within the party. Now if they could just do something about their economic policy, dump the neo-liberal market worshipping and move towards a more social democratic model.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:13:05 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 28, 2018, 11:09:50 AM
Fine Gael has had a progressive wing always, epitomised by Garret Fitzgerald's term as leader.

Social liberals seem to be on the ascendant now within the party. Now if they could just do something about their economic policy, dump the neo-liberal market worshipping and move towards a more social democratic model.
A citizens assembly focused on the economic model would be very interesting
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 28, 2018, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

He's a complete headcase.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 11:39:58 AM
I have my faith, but I have a serious problem with the Catholic Church moralising on anything while in the middle of various scandals and inquiries related to mothers and babies homes, child 'trafficking' and child abuse. You would like to think they'd have enough cop on to realise they need to take a more pastoral tone.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Bord na Mona man on May 28, 2018, 11:48:44 AM
You'd have to admire the opportunism of some of the smarter politicians.
When the same-sex marriage referendum passed, I remember Varadkar getting heat on social media for aligning to pro-life when people were assuming he should also pro-choice because he was gay and in favour of gay marriage.

To see him milking it at the weekend gave me a chuckle. The same goes for Micheal Martin. He obviously read the tea leaves better than any opinion poll.
Simon Harris performed weakly during the campaign, but all that ultimately matters was that he was on the winner's podium.
There was little mention of trollies and waiting lists this past month.

In terms of normal elections, abortion isn't in the top 10. Of it ever was, it won't be any more.
I don't think this stuff feeds into normal politics to any great degree.
As it turned out, and probably unknowingly, about 2/3 of people were in favour, but very few people were particularly exercised about it until recently.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Mayo4Sam on May 28, 2018, 12:27:47 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 09:55:04 AM
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Surprised at that to be honest. Although I suppose FF's vote has collapsed in Dublin, so it's probably a more rural vote, which was closer in most cases anyway I think.

I think its 33 out of 41 FF TDs were opposed including would be successors to MM Michael McGrath and Dara Calleary.

I won't be one for giving credit to FF but I think it was exceptionally courageous what MM did. He was one of the first party leaders to declare and did so very strongly and can't have been easy given the level of opposition in his party.
Its left FF as a bit of a mess
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 28, 2018, 12:48:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

They'll just take the staff from cancer patients and the like and let them wait.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 28, 2018, 01:16:28 PM
Stand by for a massive new round of fake news from shameless anti-choicers as the legislation is debated and passed.

Absolutely nothing will be off limits.

The irony is that anti-choicers will be desperately hoping for as high an abortion rate as possible in order to try and say "I told you so". 

Late in the campaign they tried to claim, in desperation, that "we can do so much more for women".

So, what are they going to do for women?

The answer, without a shadow of a doubt, is absolutely nothing.

They won't be campaigning for free contraception, or comprehensive sex education, or better supports for single parents, or better supports for parents of disabled children, or better childcare.

What we can expect from them is intimidation and outright bullying of women and staff at GP clinics and hospitals - and even more extremist behaviour than they have already engaged in.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?


Quote from: sid waddell on May 28, 2018, 01:16:28 PM

So, what are they going to do for women?

The answer, without a shadow of a doubt, is absolutely nothing.

They won't be campaigning for free contraception, or comprehensive sex education, or better supports for single parents, or better supports for parents of disabled children, or better childcare.


Most of the supports are also off limit to your average right wing conservative type.  I think it will be up to the "soft yes" representation to push for this.   Those that see abortion as a necessary evil but an evil all the same.  Coveney for example is making the right noises.

In fact some of the things that you class as supports would likely be fought tooth and nail by likes of Iona etc.. such as freer access to contraception and comprehensive sex education.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 01:53:21 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: haranguerer on May 28, 2018, 01:56:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Would it not be less than if they were not to have the abortion, so needed care for the full term and birth??  :o
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 01:53:21 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?

Most of the time, no.  I would expect that the only medical supervision would be a general checkup and a scan in the case of history of ectopic pregancies.  Most would be prescribed pill once the matter is discussed and that they still want to proceed after the 72hour cooling off period.  They would be told to go home and wait for things to happen and contact medics in the event  of something going wrong.  I don't envisage many women being admitted while they wait for events to take their course after the pills.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 02:06:54 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 01:53:21 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?

Most of the time, no.  I would expect that the only medical supervision would be a general checkup and a scan in the case of history of ectopic pregancies.  Most would be prescribed pill once the matter is discussed and that they still want to proceed after the 72hour cooling off period.  They would be told to go home and wait for things to happen and contact medics in the event  of something going wrong.  I don't envisage many women being admitted while they wait for events to take their course after the pills.

/Jim.

Is a DNC required?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 28, 2018, 02:22:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

You really don't know anything about this issue, do you?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 02:43:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 02:06:54 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 28, 2018, 01:53:21 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?

Most of the time, no.  I would expect that the only medical supervision would be a general checkup and a scan in the case of history of ectopic pregancies.  Most would be prescribed pill once the matter is discussed and that they still want to proceed after the 72hour cooling off period.  They would be told to go home and wait for things to happen and contact medics in the event  of something going wrong.  I don't envisage many women being admitted while they wait for events to take their course after the pills.

/Jim.

Is a DNC required?

I'm not a medic but I guess if a woman has heavy bleeding during her subsequent periods the yes, a DNC would be required then.  I don't think you say it is definitely needed.

I would be of a belief (maybe mistaken) that under new legislation a woman can go to GP, discuss taking the pill, have a checkup and get prescription.  If they are unlucky enough to have issue they will feel free to return to GP for follow up.  I am guessing today that women are either taking pills or getting a one-off appointment in UK.  So any follow up treatment is already part of our system.   

For most cases I would guess the only extra "load" is that like any prescription medicine there will be some checking done up front.

Open to correction by the intelligentsia here of course.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 28, 2018, 03:33:16 PM
I thought the danger with current usage of abortion pills here was twofold- as they were ordered online, you couldn't be 100 percent sure that the pills were as the packaging described, and that people could not visit their GP to check if they were vulnerable to side effects before they purchased them.
Both those dangers are removed once GPs can prescribe and pharmacists can dispense. So a large majority of pre 12 weeks abortion would be dealt with through home care and monitoring.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 28, 2018, 08:56:10 PM
It's good to see that some journalists can still take a balanced view.

"'I don't want to rain all over the repeal parade but I can't bring myself to celebrate abortions'

Irish Independent 28 May 2018 Barbara McCarthy

'IRELAND is still the same country today as it was before, just a little more tolerant, open and respectful," Leo Varadkar said outside Dublin Castle on Saturday, where thousands of people chanting "Yes" gathered to celebrate.
I'd love to rephrase that: 'Ireland has more authoritarian bigots who think they're liberals than it did before.'
Repealing the Eighth Amendment was essentially a victory over the Catholic Church. Feminists, nonpartisans and politicians hugged each other, crying 'we made it' as they shattered the illusion that the Church was their moral arbiter.
It would be great if it wasn't so righteous. All I can see is a country that isn't that different than it was before, because ultimately Irish people are sheep who will do anything to impress global outsiders.
One of the great paradigms of propaganda is bandwagon mentality, which was evident outside Dublin Castle on Saturday.
But I don't want to rain all over their repeal parade.
I'm happy for the tireless campaigners who have been fighting for women's rights for decades, and for women who no longer have to travel to the UK for abortions when their babies suffer from fatal foetal abnormality. I'm happy victims of rape, incest or domestic violence can have abortions at home. But will I jump up and down like a fool singing Tracy Chapman's 'Talkin' bout a revolution' amidst cars beeping down on South William Street in Dublin's enclave of the absolutist left and the blue haircut?
Absolutely not.
I can't bring myself to celebrate abortions. I know, what a weirdo.
Anyway, the No side, who make up one-third of the electorate, has been gracious in defeat. Many expressed sadness that they couldn't do more for the unborn.
For many repealers, unfortunately, it's been a disgusting gloat-fest.
This was not an easy campaign to get behind. Many of us spent years deliberating, ruminating, going back and forth. It was like 'Sophie's Choice'. I'm pro-life, but I really don't like telling people how to live their lives. The No side voted out of conscience against the introduction of the death penalty to the unborn. Yes voters voted for women to have autonomy over their bodies.
The dichotomy was palpable, but how can you be 100pc for one or the other?
It's not that women haven't suffered under the Eighth – there are heartbreaking stories on both sides. I have two cousins who were both told their babies would have Down syndrome and doctors suggested they abort. Both kept their children. Both were fine.
In this age of idealistic social media obsession and positivity memes, the lack of compassion, especially from female journalists, was unnerving. Nell McCafferty was one of the few who displayed some empathy towards the embryo.
That's not to say the No side didn't make mistakes. The posters were too much, and the fact that many campaigners were Catholic worked against them.
But then again, as we officially release ourselves from the shackles of the Church in front of a global audience, it's easy to forget how Irish people let priests control their lives.
Mothers were complicit, not afraid to take the priest's word over that of their own child, spoiling their sons over their daughters.
But yeah, in hindsight, let's blame the Church and bang on about how awful old Ireland was.
I sometimes forget I grew up here, too. I'm not Catholic and I never went to a convent school, which is good because I was allowed to think for myself, but like many others I'm not downtrodden, abused and enslaved. From my recollection, the 80s and 90s were amazing in Ireland.
It's important we remember that just because women who came before us suffered, doesn't mean we can collectively ride on their coat tails of victimhood. If you haven't been oppressed, don't make out you're oppressed. The women crying outside Dublin Castle in repeal jumpers probably haven't been to the Magdalene laundries or even had an abortion, so why are they carrying the burden? Victim culture is dangerous for the individual and society.
But not to worry, we're a great little country, open and modern – at least CNN and other global media outlets think so. And we're amazing at selling ourselves, even to each other.
"Under the Eighth Amendment, women in crisis have been told you are on your own. Today we say that we want to stand with you," Health Minister Simon Harris said, after being egged on by the crowd who were donning 'we fancy Simon Harris' posters.
Momentum is great for governments. In the ecstatic trance of a Yes vote, people were saying things like, "I trust our Government to legislate on this properly".
Forgetful much? What about the cover-up surrounding the cervical smear scandal, endemic corruption, domestic abuse, murder and the fact that women are less safe in Ireland than ever before, out of control homelessness, static housing, obscene rents, vulture capitalism, inequitable taxation, gangland crime, expensive childcare, soaring suicide rates, mental health, corporate largesse, the list goes on.
Sure, once the repealers have stopped trolling pro-lifers online in a virtuous trance, and thrown their repeal jumpers in the back of their wardrobes, maybe they'll see that too. Once the smoke and mirrors are gone, life in Ireland has never been more people-unfriendly.
Trailblazer Ailbhe Smyth said "equality and justice and freedom for people" exists now that women can have abortions, but what if we can't afford to live here, or afford abortions.
With that in mind, let's make our next battle about something that really affects us all, like the rental crisis, and we'll see how much political engagement we get.
"
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 09:03:30 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 28, 2018, 08:56:10 PM
It's good to see that some journalists can still take a balanced view.

"'I don't want to rain all over the repeal parade but I can't bring myself to celebrate abortions'

Irish Independent 28 May 2018 Barbara McCarthy

'IRELAND is still the same country today as it was before, just a little more tolerant, open and respectful," Leo Varadkar said outside Dublin Castle on Saturday, where thousands of people chanting "Yes" gathered to celebrate.
I'd love to rephrase that: 'Ireland has more authoritarian bigots who think they're liberals than it did before.'
Repealing the Eighth Amendment was essentially a victory over the Catholic Church. Feminists, nonpartisans and politicians hugged each other, crying 'we made it' as they shattered the illusion that the Church was their moral arbiter.
It would be great if it wasn't so righteous. All I can see is a country that isn't that different than it was before, because ultimately Irish people are sheep who will do anything to impress global outsiders.
One of the great paradigms of propaganda is bandwagon mentality, which was evident outside Dublin Castle on Saturday.
But I don't want to rain all over their repeal parade.
I'm happy for the tireless campaigners who have been fighting for women's rights for decades, and for women who no longer have to travel to the UK for abortions when their babies suffer from fatal foetal abnormality. I'm happy victims of rape, incest or domestic violence can have abortions at home. But will I jump up and down like a fool singing Tracy Chapman's 'Talkin' bout a revolution' amidst cars beeping down on South William Street in Dublin's enclave of the absolutist left and the blue haircut?
Absolutely not.
I can't bring myself to celebrate abortions. I know, what a weirdo.
Anyway, the No side, who make up one-third of the electorate, has been gracious in defeat. Many expressed sadness that they couldn't do more for the unborn.
For many repealers, unfortunately, it's been a disgusting gloat-fest.
This was not an easy campaign to get behind. Many of us spent years deliberating, ruminating, going back and forth. It was like 'Sophie's Choice'. I'm pro-life, but I really don't like telling people how to live their lives. The No side voted out of conscience against the introduction of the death penalty to the unborn. Yes voters voted for women to have autonomy over their bodies.
The dichotomy was palpable, but how can you be 100pc for one or the other?
It's not that women haven't suffered under the Eighth – there are heartbreaking stories on both sides. I have two cousins who were both told their babies would have Down syndrome and doctors suggested they abort. Both kept their children. Both were fine.
In this age of idealistic social media obsession and positivity memes, the lack of compassion, especially from female journalists, was unnerving. Nell McCafferty was one of the few who displayed some empathy towards the embryo.
That's not to say the No side didn't make mistakes. The posters were too much, and the fact that many campaigners were Catholic worked against them.
But then again, as we officially release ourselves from the shackles of the Church in front of a global audience, it's easy to forget how Irish people let priests control their lives.
Mothers were complicit, not afraid to take the priest's word over that of their own child, spoiling their sons over their daughters.
But yeah, in hindsight, let's blame the Church and bang on about how awful old Ireland was.
I sometimes forget I grew up here, too. I'm not Catholic and I never went to a convent school, which is good because I was allowed to think for myself, but like many others I'm not downtrodden, abused and enslaved. From my recollection, the 80s and 90s were amazing in Ireland.
It's important we remember that just because women who came before us suffered, doesn't mean we can collectively ride on their coat tails of victimhood. If you haven't been oppressed, don't make out you're oppressed. The women crying outside Dublin Castle in repeal jumpers probably haven't been to the Magdalene laundries or even had an abortion, so why are they carrying the burden? Victim culture is dangerous for the individual and society.
But not to worry, we're a great little country, open and modern – at least CNN and other global media outlets think so. And we're amazing at selling ourselves, even to each other.
"Under the Eighth Amendment, women in crisis have been told you are on your own. Today we say that we want to stand with you," Health Minister Simon Harris said, after being egged on by the crowd who were donning 'we fancy Simon Harris' posters.
Momentum is great for governments. In the ecstatic trance of a Yes vote, people were saying things like, "I trust our Government to legislate on this properly".
Forgetful much? What about the cover-up surrounding the cervical smear scandal, endemic corruption, domestic abuse, murder and the fact that women are less safe in Ireland than ever before, out of control homelessness, static housing, obscene rents, vulture capitalism, inequitable taxation, gangland crime, expensive childcare, soaring suicide rates, mental health, corporate largesse, the list goes on.
Sure, once the repealers have stopped trolling pro-lifers online in a virtuous trance, and thrown their repeal jumpers in the back of their wardrobes, maybe they'll see that too. Once the smoke and mirrors are gone, life in Ireland has never been more people-unfriendly.
Trailblazer Ailbhe Smyth said "equality and justice and freedom for people" exists now that women can have abortions, but what if we can't afford to live here, or afford abortions.
With that in mind, let's make our next battle about something that really affects us all, like the rental crisis, and we'll see how much political engagement we get.
"
Whataboutery
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 28, 2018, 10:06:27 PM
Standard Dinny Daily "contrarian" clickbait drivel that says the square root of absolutely nothing.


Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 28, 2018, 10:12:16 PM
How is the nonsense Sherlock and McGurk have been spouting 'gracious'? Crazy, crazy article premise.

The politicians who went No aren't opposing the legislation - this is more to do with them realising they risk alienating more voters by doing so rather than any sense of contrition or conciliation. Nothing frightens a policeman more than an unpopular opinion.

The Yes campaigners are well within their rights to celebrate and stick their chests out in the wake of such an incredible landslide victory for something they've championed for decades. It moved a whole lot of women to tears to see Ireland as a country endorsing their rights in such an overwhelming manner. It's very easy to sit behind a keyboard and tut-tut but these campaigners faced horrible abuse over the years and this weekend was their complete vindication. No one would have expected this result even a few years ago.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 28, 2018, 10:26:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 09:03:30 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on May 28, 2018, 08:56:10 PM
It's good to see that some journalists can still take a balanced view.

"'I don't want to rain all over the repeal parade but I can't bring myself to celebrate abortions'

Irish Independent 28 May 2018 Barbara McCarthy

'IRELAND is still the same country today as it was before, just a little more tolerant, open and respectful," Leo Varadkar said outside Dublin Castle on Saturday, where thousands of people chanting "Yes" gathered to celebrate.
I'd love to rephrase that: 'Ireland has more authoritarian bigots who think they're liberals than it did before.'
Repealing the Eighth Amendment was essentially a victory over the Catholic Church. Feminists, nonpartisans and politicians hugged each other, crying 'we made it' as they shattered the illusion that the Church was their moral arbiter.
It would be great if it wasn't so righteous. All I can see is a country that isn't that different than it was before, because ultimately Irish people are sheep who will do anything to impress global outsiders.
One of the great paradigms of propaganda is bandwagon mentality, which was evident outside Dublin Castle on Saturday.
But I don't want to rain all over their repeal parade.
I'm happy for the tireless campaigners who have been fighting for women's rights for decades, and for women who no longer have to travel to the UK for abortions when their babies suffer from fatal foetal abnormality. I'm happy victims of rape, incest or domestic violence can have abortions at home. But will I jump up and down like a fool singing Tracy Chapman's 'Talkin' bout a revolution' amidst cars beeping down on South William Street in Dublin's enclave of the absolutist left and the blue haircut?
Absolutely not.
I can't bring myself to celebrate abortions. I know, what a weirdo.
Anyway, the No side, who make up one-third of the electorate, has been gracious in defeat. Many expressed sadness that they couldn't do more for the unborn.
For many repealers, unfortunately, it's been a disgusting gloat-fest.
This was not an easy campaign to get behind. Many of us spent years deliberating, ruminating, going back and forth. It was like 'Sophie's Choice'. I'm pro-life, but I really don't like telling people how to live their lives. The No side voted out of conscience against the introduction of the death penalty to the unborn. Yes voters voted for women to have autonomy over their bodies.
The dichotomy was palpable, but how can you be 100pc for one or the other?
It's not that women haven't suffered under the Eighth – there are heartbreaking stories on both sides. I have two cousins who were both told their babies would have Down syndrome and doctors suggested they abort. Both kept their children. Both were fine.
In this age of idealistic social media obsession and positivity memes, the lack of compassion, especially from female journalists, was unnerving. Nell McCafferty was one of the few who displayed some empathy towards the embryo.
That's not to say the No side didn't make mistakes. The posters were too much, and the fact that many campaigners were Catholic worked against them.
But then again, as we officially release ourselves from the shackles of the Church in front of a global audience, it's easy to forget how Irish people let priests control their lives.
Mothers were complicit, not afraid to take the priest's word over that of their own child, spoiling their sons over their daughters.
But yeah, in hindsight, let's blame the Church and bang on about how awful old Ireland was.
I sometimes forget I grew up here, too. I'm not Catholic and I never went to a convent school, which is good because I was allowed to think for myself, but like many others I'm not downtrodden, abused and enslaved. From my recollection, the 80s and 90s were amazing in Ireland.
It's important we remember that just because women who came before us suffered, doesn't mean we can collectively ride on their coat tails of victimhood. If you haven't been oppressed, don't make out you're oppressed. The women crying outside Dublin Castle in repeal jumpers probably haven't been to the Magdalene laundries or even had an abortion, so why are they carrying the burden? Victim culture is dangerous for the individual and society.
But not to worry, we're a great little country, open and modern – at least CNN and other global media outlets think so. And we're amazing at selling ourselves, even to each other.
"Under the Eighth Amendment, women in crisis have been told you are on your own. Today we say that we want to stand with you," Health Minister Simon Harris said, after being egged on by the crowd who were donning 'we fancy Simon Harris' posters.
Momentum is great for governments. In the ecstatic trance of a Yes vote, people were saying things like, "I trust our Government to legislate on this properly".
Forgetful much? What about the cover-up surrounding the cervical smear scandal, endemic corruption, domestic abuse, murder and the fact that women are less safe in Ireland than ever before, out of control homelessness, static housing, obscene rents, vulture capitalism, inequitable taxation, gangland crime, expensive childcare, soaring suicide rates, mental health, corporate largesse, the list goes on.
Sure, once the repealers have stopped trolling pro-lifers online in a virtuous trance, and thrown their repeal jumpers in the back of their wardrobes, maybe they'll see that too. Once the smoke and mirrors are gone, life in Ireland has never been more people-unfriendly.
Trailblazer Ailbhe Smyth said "equality and justice and freedom for people" exists now that women can have abortions, but what if we can't afford to live here, or afford abortions.
With that in mind, let's make our next battle about something that really affects us all, like the rental crisis, and we'll see how much political engagement we get.
"
Whataboutery

I would not agree that this article is "Whataboutery".
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 28, 2018, 10:45:16 PM
That idiot from Iona is being given more air time by EYE

Why?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 29, 2018, 08:51:03 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

You have absolutely no clue what's going on.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 29, 2018, 09:19:04 AM
Hi Dolph, are you an alter ego of Declan Ganley?

You sound like him!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 29, 2018, 09:23:13 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

You are dead right. Thats why people should stop wasting their time going to church, kick the church out of school and if they want to believe in God they should speak directly to the man/woman and cut out the pricks in the middle.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 29, 2018, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

Yis are finished Father. The end of child rape, women abuse, control. Thank God
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 29, 2018, 09:48:29 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 29, 2018, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

Yis are finished Father. The end of child rape, women abuse, control. Thank God
Now, now - get with the programme - if you don't blindly follow the rigid fundamentalist dogma of a bunch of sky fairy-believing old men who have never had sex in their lives and yet who demand control of women's wombs, you're engaging in "groupthink" and are a "politically correct sheep" or something.  ;D



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 29, 2018, 09:52:12 AM
Bring it on.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeWXdr_W4AAO14v.jpg)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: JoG2 on May 29, 2018, 09:54:08 AM
Quote from: Itchy on May 29, 2018, 09:23:13 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

You are dead right. Thats why people should stop wasting their time going to church, kick the church out of school and if they want to believe in God they should speak directly to the man/woman and cut out the pricks in the middle.

"In Catholic school as vicious as Roman rule
I got my knuckles bruised by a lady in black
And I held my tongue as she told me Son,
Fear is the heart of love, so I never went back"
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 10:16:37 AM
I can't believe McGuirk said he wouldn't tolerate abortion in case of rape.
It is no wonder he lost. 

Here's Binchy vs Robinson from 1983
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLWnoQjTNiw

Robinson was Labour's woman President in 1990

When FF came around to nominating a woman to be President they chose McAleese.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISOhms5jboM

but abortion won't be a rallying cry for FF any more
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 29, 2018, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all

Re the point in the Telegraph, there are plenty of common sense proposals for gun controls put forward in America in the aftermath of school shootings, which don't involve blanket bans - background checks, ban on high capacity magazines, bio locks on guns - and guess what? The NRA opposes them all.

There have been plenty of common sense proposals to deal with crisis pregnancies over the years - more and better non-religious sex education, easier availability for contraception, the morning after pill etc - of which the current legislation is just one more example. And guess what? The No side does what the No sides does - it says No.

Having abortion available does not make it compulsory. The No campaigners would be far better employed looking at these other solutions and joining with the Yes side to make their availability a deal breaker.

We didn't vote for abortion, we voted for the choice. If the other services mentioned above make abortion less necessary, than you would have 100% of the population behind you.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 29, 2018, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all

Aye, Ireland is purifying itselfs of the shackles of the Catholic Church alright and that battle has a way to go. People who rape kids, cover up and protect people who rape kids etc have no business in the schools of Ireland. However, I think you have totally missed the point - I dont know of anyone, and I mean that, that said they were voting Yes to give a dig to the church.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 03:30:41 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all

Lol. We get it far more than you clearly do.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: bennydorano on May 29, 2018, 03:34:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all
Interesting that 2 people from Armagh I went to school with & played football with have both chosen this path. Was it MD or DN or a 3rd Armaghian that I'm unaware of?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 29, 2018, 03:43:15 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 29, 2018, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all

Re the point in the Telegraph, there are plenty of common sense proposals for gun controls put forward in America in the aftermath of school shootings, which don't involve blanket bans - background checks, ban on high capacity magazines, bio locks on guns - and guess what? The NRA opposes them all.

There have been plenty of common sense proposals to deal with crisis pregnancies over the years - more and better non-religious sex education, easier availability for contraception, the morning after pill etc - of which the current legislation is just one more example. And guess what? The No side does what the No sides does - it says No.

Having abortion available does not make it compulsory. The No campaigners would be far better employed looking at these other solutions and joining with the Yes side to make their availability a deal breaker.

We didn't vote for abortion, we voted for the choice. If the other services mentioned above make abortion less necessary, than you would have 100% of the population behind you.

Excellent post Easytiger. This has been explained many, many times yet it seems impossible for some to grasp.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Billys Boots on May 29, 2018, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 29, 2018, 03:43:15 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 29, 2018, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all

Re the point in the Telegraph, there are plenty of common sense proposals for gun controls put forward in America in the aftermath of school shootings, which don't involve blanket bans - background checks, ban on high capacity magazines, bio locks on guns - and guess what? The NRA opposes them all.

There have been plenty of common sense proposals to deal with crisis pregnancies over the years - more and better non-religious sex education, easier availability for contraception, the morning after pill etc - of which the current legislation is just one more example. And guess what? The No side does what the No sides does - it says No.

Having abortion available does not make it compulsory. The No campaigners would be far better employed looking at these other solutions and joining with the Yes side to make their availability a deal breaker.

We didn't vote for abortion, we voted for the choice. If the other services mentioned above make abortion less necessary, than you would have 100% of the population behind you.

Excellent post Easytiger. This has been explained many, many times yet it seems impossible for some to grasp.

People hear what they want to hear, Seanie. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on May 29, 2018, 03:34:17 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 29, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
reading through the last couple of pages its easy to see this was more about anti-church sentiment for many than any win for "progress" or "women's rights"
nobody won on the yes side. There is no victory in abortion. I read this in the telegraph over the weekend and thought it a very succinct point:
QuoteWhen there is a school shooting in America there are two responses - those who want to ban guns and those who want to arm everyone. Most here are appalled at the idea that more guns is the solution.
The idea that easier abortion is the solution to crisis pregnancy is just as appalling.

I talked to a good friend of mine from Armagh up in NY a couple of weekends back. He had a conversion in his late 20s and is now a missionary priest. He said Ireland was going through a purification. I hope he is right. I don't know if people get the magnitude of this vote or even care. God have mercy on us all
Interesting that 2 people from Armagh I went to school with & played football with have both chosen this path. Was it MD or DN or a 3rd Armaghian that I'm unaware of?
MD Benny. Spent half a day with him on the 12th of May. Stayed in touch after I left and when he went in to seminary, was lovely to see him. I know DN very well too before and after he joined the priesthood
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
Another No stalwart who sickened me was Rónán Mullen. He kept repeating that the amendment was loving and caring. FFS
The wording was left deliberately vague. When Savita Halappanavar developed complications the doctors were afraid to break the law. The dead woman with the hole in her head was kept going on life support because of Article 8.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
Another No stalwart who sickened me was Rónán Mullen. He kept repeating that the amendment was loving and caring. FFS
The wording was left deliberately vague. When Savita Halappanavar developed complications the doctors were afraid to break the law. The dead woman with the hole in her head was kept going on life support because of Article 8.

Mullen literally said on national television last week that "mental health has no evidence base". I hadn't took much notice of him but he shouldn't be an elected official in any capacity with those sorts of fringe, regressive opinions.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on May 29, 2018, 05:50:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
Another No stalwart who sickened me was Rónán Mullen. He kept repeating that the amendment was loving and caring. FFS
The wording was left deliberately vague. When Savita Halappanavar developed complications the doctors were afraid to break the law. The dead woman with the hole in her head was kept going on life support because of Article 8.

Mullen literally said on national television last week that "mental health has no evidence base". I hadn't took much notice of him but he shouldn't be an elected official in any capacity with those sorts of fringe, regressive opinions.

Theres a good religous affairs show on MidWest radio on Sunday Mornings.....replayed after Michael Commins Show on Sunday night.  Its co-hosted by a very practical middle of the road no nonsense priest Fr Brendan Hoban.  They were discussing the margin of loss on last Sundays show and Fr Brendan said that the people who were representing the views of the Catholic Church for the No campaign, held views that were very much outside of the mainstream. He also felt their extremist positions turned many undecideds into Yes voters
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 06:09:22 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
Another No stalwart who sickened me was Rónán Mullen. He kept repeating that the amendment was loving and caring. FFS
The wording was left deliberately vague. When Savita Halappanavar developed complications the doctors were afraid to break the law. The dead woman with the hole in her head was kept going on life support because of Article 8.

Mullen literally said on national television last week that "mental health has no evidence base". I hadn't took much notice of him but he shouldn't be an elected official in any capacity with those sorts of fringe, regressive opinions.
He's very sinister under a facade of loving and caring
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 29, 2018, 06:38:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
Another No stalwart who sickened me was Rónán Mullen. He kept repeating that the amendment was loving and caring. FFS
The wording was left deliberately vague. When Savita Halappanavar developed complications the doctors were afraid to break the law. The dead woman with the hole in her head was kept going on life support because of Article 8.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeNXj9JW0AAi0r1.jpg)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 29, 2018, 06:46:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.

Is that buck actually elected by anyone, or is he an appointee to the Seanad?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 06:48:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.

It would take you to go to bat for Ronan fûcking Mullen. More important to get a shot at me than to criticise a man with abhorant views, right?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 07:12:42 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 29, 2018, 06:46:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.

Is that buck actually elected by anyone, or is he an appointee to the Seanad?
University voters.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 08:06:19 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.
I think a lot of people would share Syf's view on him.
And is there anywan in the Dail that is such a gobshite? I think he is out on his own.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 08:28:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 08:06:19 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.
I think a lot of people would share Syf's view on him.
And is there anywan in the Dail that is such a gobshite? I think he is out on his own.

Mattie McGrath. Both Healy-Raes.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 09:27:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf-17tfaW58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu-m6iAH5LY
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 29, 2018, 10:29:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 29, 2018, 06:46:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.

Is that buck actually elected by anyone, or is he an appointee to the Seanad?
He has the biggest mandate of any of the Senators as it happens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Ireland_(constituency)#2016_election (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Ireland_(constituency)#2016_election)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 29, 2018, 10:32:06 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 29, 2018, 01:50:52 PM
Re the point in the Telegraph, there are plenty of common sense proposals for gun controls put forward in America in the aftermath of school shootings, which don't involve blanket bans - background checks, ban on high capacity magazines, bio locks on guns - and guess what? The NRA opposes them all.

There have been plenty of common sense proposals to deal with crisis pregnancies over the years - more and better non-religious sex education, easier availability for contraception, the morning after pill etc - of which the current legislation is just one more example. And guess what? The No side does what the No sides does - it says No.

Having abortion available does not make it compulsory. The No campaigners would be far better employed looking at these other solutions and joining with the Yes side to make their availability a deal breaker.

We didn't vote for abortion, we voted for the choice. If the other services mentioned above make abortion less necessary, than you would have 100% of the population behind you.

I'm not sure who exactly opposed easier availability for contraception, the morning after pill etc, but even if they did they would presumably be in a minority. Yet, somehow, none of these things were done, in order to create more demand for abortion on demand.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 29, 2018, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 08:28:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 08:06:19 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.
I think a lot of people would share Syf's view on him.
And is there anywan in the Dail that is such a gobshite? I think he is out on his own.

Mattie McGrath. Both Healy-Raes.

Lowry.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Orchard park on May 29, 2018, 10:55:36 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 27, 2018, 11:30:45 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 27, 2018, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
According to RTE most people made their mind up after Savita H died.
No didn't lose on Friday. The war was lost 5 years ago.

Their poll literally said the opposite of what you just wrote. They had their minds made up before the Savita case even happened. Lay off whatever is it that you're on.

Give it up, Syf. The board is littered with your nonsense. It''s wall to wall ràiméis. If Galway beat Ros in the CF you'll disappear again for 2 months.

I really don't know who you think you're fooling.
Haven't you some sheep need dipping?


Can't dip,the inflatable ones
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 29, 2018, 11:09:27 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 29, 2018, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 08:28:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 08:06:19 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.
I think a lot of people would share Syf's view on him.
And is there anywan in the Dail that is such a gobshite? I think he is out on his own.

Mattie McGrath. Both Healy-Raes.

Lowry.

Shane Ross in the same boat.

However, none as objectionable as Mullins
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 29, 2018, 11:21:43 PM
His comment on mental health alone should be enough to see him never get another vote. His patronising comments to Saoirse Long were as bad. I think he helped a lot of reluctant Yes voters over the line. Him and the likes of Tommie Banks and the Benbulben crew.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 30, 2018, 12:13:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 29, 2018, 11:09:27 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 29, 2018, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2018, 08:28:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2018, 08:06:19 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
If you're elected by the electorate you're elected no matter how obnoxious  people might find you're opinions.
Also is Syfīn to be the arbiter of who can or can't be elected.
I think a lot of people would share Syf's view on him.
And is there anywan in the Dail that is such a gobshite? I think he is out on his own.

Mattie McGrath. Both Healy-Raes.

Lowry.

Shane Ross in the same boat.

However, none as objectionable as Mullins
Mullen is really bad.

Declan Ganley is far worse.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/go-to-war-to-tame-iran-ganley-73178.html
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 12:39:33 AM
I don't know anything about this Mullen character but Mental Health does not have an (objective) evidence base, it is completely subjective, that's not to say it is not real of course.

Ever hear of someone having a sore back/leg...etc but say "the doctors think Im imagining it?" That's because the doctors cant verify the pain with an actual anatomical condition like a slipped disk, swollen tendon whatever.
Usually you can verify the patients subjective pain with an objective source and you can go about treating the problem which (usually) mends their subjective pain.

The treatment of mental health is way more wishy-washy, many questionable practices, and more difficult to determine causes and outcomes.

The chap was obviously trying to say that someone could easily fake their mental state to use it as grounds to get what they want since there is no way of objectively verifying it. If someone says "I'm suicidal" who can say they aren't?... No one.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:47:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 12:39:33 AM
I don't know anything about this Mullen character but Mental Health does not have an (objective) evidence base, it is completely subjective, that's not to say it is not real of course.

Ever hear of someone having a sore back/leg...etc but say "the doctors think Im imagining it?" That's because the doctors cant verify the pain with an actual anatomical condition like a slipped disk, swollen tendon whatever.
Usually you can verify the patients subjective pain with an objective source and you can go about treating the problem which (usually) mends their subjective pain.

The treatment of mental health is way more wishy-washy, many questionable practices, and more difficult to determine causes and outcomes.

The chap was obviously trying to say that someone could easily fake their mental state to use it as grounds to get what they want since there is no way of objectively verifying it. If someone says "I'm suicidal" who can say they aren't?... No one.

Oh, I get it now. You're just a troll.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 30, 2018, 01:05:03 AM
You know, since 2013 you can't move within half a mile of a hospital for all the women queueing up to pretend they're suicidal just so they can have an abortion.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: easytiger95 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:44 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 29, 2018, 10:32:06 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 29, 2018, 01:50:52 PM

Re the point in the Telegraph, there are plenty of common sense proposals for gun controls put forward in America in the aftermath of school shootings, which don't involve blanket bans - background checks, ban on high capacity magazines, bio locks on guns - and guess what? The NRA opposes them all.

There have been plenty of common sense proposals to deal with crisis pregnancies over the years - more and better non-religious sex education, easier availability for contraception, the morning after pill etc - of which the current legislation is just one more example. And guess what? The No side does what the No sides does - it says No.

Having abortion available does not make it compulsory. The No campaigners would be far better employed looking at these other solutions and joining with the Yes side to make their availability a deal breaker.

We didn't vote for abortion, we voted for the choice. If the other services mentioned above make abortion less necessary, than you would have 100% of the population behind you.

I'm not sure who exactly opposed easier availability for contraception, the morning after pill etc, but even if they did they would presumably be in a minority. Yet, somehow, none of these things were done, in order to create more demand for abortion on demand.
You're really not sure who opposed these things? Let me give you some clues- they were led by guys who wore black, carried bibles and managed to have the 8th amendment inserted into our constitution on a 2-1 majority. I'm no statistician but that is the opposite of a minority. That was in 1983.

People were still getting arrested in the early 90s for buying condoms at the Virgin Megastore. Homosexuals were being arrested for expressing their sexuality. Teenage rape victims were being escorted off ferries by guards.

It took two refererendums a decade apart to get divorce. They campaigned against the right to travel and information, stood against marraige equality and the protection of life during pregnancy act.

They refused to confront the torture and rape factories known as industrial  schools.They stood against and delayed, even as their majority slipped away in the new century, every attempt to live up to the ideals of a secular fraternal republic.

They and their craw thumping proxies in the establishment did all this, even as mass graves of toddlers turned up under "mother and childrens" homes, detritus they gave no thought to, as they painted their placards on their way to their next pro-life march. If i read your post correctly, am I to believe that they didn't do these things, block these paths, destroy these lives on the altar of absolutism?

The progress we see in our society came from the sacrifice of generations of activists who saw that monolith in 1983 and knew the weight of it would crush our country- with women and children first.

I'm all for being gracious in triumph, but that doesn't extend to being asked to indulge in a malign collective amnesia about what religious conservatives did to our country over decades.

For you to offer that theory displays ignorance that is either baffling or wilful. I have some memory of that time and i won't indulge it. No has meant what it has alwayds meant- No. Only if they abandon their absolutism.can we work for what we all should want- abortions becoming increasingly rare in a atmosphere of respect and care for women.

Yet they were outside the Dail today with graphic pictures of foetuses 6 feet high. Colour me sceptical.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 01:30:46 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/opinion-are-we-to-replace-decades-of-religious-tyranny-with-a-new-secular-intolerance-36958338.html

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 01:34:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 01:30:46 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/opinion-are-we-to-replace-decades-of-religious-tyranny-with-a-new-secular-intolerance-36958338.html

Paper doesn't refuse ink. These sorts of against-the-grain articles are a blatant attempt to try to appeal to the disaffected who voted No and simply can't accept the fact the Ireland they knew does not exist anymore, including Mr. Doran. One dying institution sticking up for another.

There's nothing 'trendy' about basic and fundamental womens' rights that those in nearly every other western country have taken for granted for decades. What you linked is exactly the sort of commentary piece that will age absolutely horribly. Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism - although those of Doran's ilk grew up in a world where they were free from criticism so his antiquated views might not come as much of a surprise.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 01:53:45 AM
Speaking of intolerant secular posters.... ....   
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 04:24:23 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:47:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 12:39:33 AM
I don't know anything about this Mullen character but Mental Health does not have an (objective) evidence base, it is completely subjective, that's not to say it is not real of course.

Ever hear of someone having a sore back/leg...etc but say "the doctors think Im imagining it?" That's because the doctors cant verify the pain with an actual anatomical condition like a slipped disk, swollen tendon whatever.
Usually you can verify the patients subjective pain with an objective source and you can go about treating the problem which (usually) mends their subjective pain.

The treatment of mental health is way more wishy-washy, many questionable practices, and more difficult to determine causes and outcomes.

The chap was obviously trying to say that someone could easily fake their mental state to use it as grounds to get what they want since there is no way of objectively verifying it. If someone says "I'm suicidal" who can say they aren't?... No one.

Oh, I get it now. You're just a troll.

Just pointing out a few facts Sy.

If you wish to refute them go ahead
or
Continue with a personal attack against a faceless anonymous post.

Im cool with either 8)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 30, 2018, 04:24:33 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 29, 2018, 08:51:03 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

You have absolutely no clue what's going on.

I could say exactly the same of yourself.
I hope the government will afford the people of the country the opportunity to repeal the repeal of the 8th in 10 years time when they see the chaos unlimited abortion will cause.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Dolph1 on May 30, 2018, 04:29:24 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 29, 2018, 09:48:29 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 29, 2018, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

Yis are finished Father. The end of child rape, women abuse, control. Thank God
Now, now - get with the programme - if you don't blindly follow the rigid fundamentalist dogma of a bunch of sky fairy-believing old men who have never had sex in their lives and yet who demand control of women's wombs, you're engaging in "groupthink" and are a "politically correct sheep" or something.  ;D

Anyone with a hint of morality knows murdering babies is wrong - you don't need a priest to tell you that.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 05:10:15 AM
Well I have to say I was disappointed by the result and shocked at the margin.

Much similar to Brexit and Trump I don't blame the people for voting the way they did. I think they were hoodwinked under a couple of pretenses. Namely, it being a woman's health issue, that the unborn are somehow not human. and that it is going to happen anyway....

But the overriding factor I believe is actually to somehow cast of any perception that the international view of Ireland as a backwater languishing under the authority of bishops. and the countries that legalise abortion are somehow more socially advanced and progressive by allowing it.

Those points have been flogged to death, I don't believe that they stand up to any scrutiny at all. And that it is straight up and down decision between the life of the unborn and the choice of a mother.

The Yes campaign were successful in hammering those messages home and they got thru. Couple that with portraying No voters as ignorant and stupid at every opportunity and you have the ingredients for a successful campaign. Seemingly this was aided by a few insentitive blunders from the lead figures of the No campaign and graphic posters which people found off putting.

Funnily enough I actually had the pro choice view on abortion for a long time but became more in the middle in my 20s and when it came to fatherhood I suddenly found myself very firmly in the prolife side of the fence.

I dont hold up any hope for the legislation to be restrictive with on demand abortions. Simon Harris and Varadker seem intend on harnessing this progressive wave for their own careers

It will not affect me much as i live in America were its legal anyway. But I was always quite proud of Ireland's position on this, that Ireland was a beacon of light on abortion were the rest of the world had accepted something that was wrong. It was clear tho that a prolife position of Irish society was slipping for some time going on the amount of women travelling to England, which is the real tragedy. At the end of the day if a woman is determined to carry out an abortion she will make the choice herself regardless of the law and regardless of right or wrong she will do it anyway.

The challenge is to take the position back and build it from the ground up where as a society everyone recognizes that they are extinguishing an unborn person's life and not just a bundle of cells, so that even tho there is a choice one is right and one is wrong and that the right choice will be made in the majority of cases.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
If it meant more jobs for Waterford hospital he'd probably approve of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBP-M0ANMyM
there is no evidence anywhere of abortion law leading to euthanasia.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 08:57:23 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
If it meant more jobs for Waterford hospital he'd probably approve of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBP-M0ANMyM
there is no evidence anywhere of abortion law leading to euthanasia.

They probably consider it a gateway right. Hello abortion, goodbye Grandad.

Great post, Easytiger.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 30, 2018, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 30, 2018, 04:24:33 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 29, 2018, 08:51:03 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on May 29, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Any catholic who voted yes really should not darken the door of the church again but  the hypocritical nature of the irish public will make them oblivious of what they are doing. I'll guarantee you that all these young ladies backing the yes campaign will demand their weddings in the church.

I did find it bewildering that there were yes campaigners crying  with happiness regarding the outcome of the vote. Tears of joy due to being granted the opportunity to murder your baby is a pretty sick state of mind. The new ireland is fast becoming a haven for slogan following, politically correct sheep.

You have absolutely no clue what's going on.

I could say exactly the same of yourself.
I hope the government will afford the people of the country the opportunity to repeal the repeal of the 8th in 10 years time when they see the chaos unlimited abortion will cause.

If you did then it would be another thing you're wrong about.

The great thing about a democracy is that if a terrible mistake is made with a law the people, if they are in a majority, can overturn it. As we have seen with this issue.

I really do not believe there will be the "chaos" you envisage will happen. Time will tell. I suspect that in 10 years time womens lives will have been saved and the rate of Irish abortions will be lower than it is currently. So if you're a so-called "pro-lifer" you should be happy about that.

The world needs a lot more compassion and understanding and a lot less moralising and judgement. Lets work on that now and see where it takes us.

Cracking post again Easytiger.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Asal Mor on May 30, 2018, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 30, 2018, 09:13:55 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 05:10:15 AM
Well I have to say I was disappointed by the result and shocked at the margin.

Much similar to Brexit and Trump I don't blame the people for voting the way they did. I think they were hoodwinked under a couple of pretenses. Namely, it being a woman's health issue, that the unborn are somehow not human.

For many of us that wrestled with this, those two issues are not mutually exclusive.

Quote from: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 05:10:15 AM
and that it is going to happen anyway....

This is true and it's something that has to be at least considered.  When something is happening so widespread, if it's brought into the system it can be at least regulated.


Quote from: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 05:10:15 AM
But the overriding factor I believe is actually to somehow cast of any perception that the international view of Ireland as a backwater languishing under the authority of bishops. and the countries that legalise abortion are somehow more socially advanced and progressive by allowing it.

Maybe it's because you are out of the country and it was reported as such internationally.  As someone who followed the debate closely I would argue this was an irish discussion, framed in an irish context.  In fact if anyone pointed elsewhere it was the no side, as they based a lot of arguments on the UK experience.  Specifically comparing the original intent versus actually results.


Quote from: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 05:10:15 AM
The Yes campaign were successful in hammering those messages home and they got thru. Couple that with portraying No voters as ignorant and stupid at every opportunity and you have the ingredients for a successful campaign. Seemingly this was aided by a few insensitive blunders from the lead figures of the No campaign and graphic posters which people found off putting.

The yes side certainly captured the human side of women in difficult situations and getting them to tell their story.  The difficulty the no side had with this was their tactic from the start was to dismiss this group of women as "less than 3%" and not engage them.   It came across time and time again as lacking empathy for their situation.  So much so that they seemed to change their tactics in the final few days to claim that they were a coalition of "full on pro-lifers" and "soft yes voters who felt legislation went too far".  To me it came across as a bit cynical and I wonder was it behind the (alleged) split in the camp in the final days.


Quote from: omaghjoe on May 30, 2018, 05:10:15 AM
The challenge is to take the position back and build it from the ground up where as a society everyone recognizes that they are extinguishing an unborn person's life and not just a bundle of cells, so that even tho there is a choice one is right and one is wrong and that the right choice will be made in the majority of cases.

Again I think you do the broader discourse in Ireland a disservice.  I think very few are fully in either camp.  In fact I think that Simon Harris won a lot of voters with his argument that life is not black and white.  It's a case that there are grey areas and having an absolutist statement in the constitution doesn't lend itself to that.    The No side tried to keep the absolute line and it didn't resonate with the electorate.  Again they couldn't keep a consistent message on this:

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/999588348221063169 (https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/999588348221063169)

As for making sure the right choice in the majority of cases then I think this is where the "soft yes" side need to front up.  Now that as a country we give people this choice, we need to ensure it's not the only choice.   Culturally we need to make sure that the options other than abortion are portrayed in a positive light.   Education and contraception are needed for young people to avoid a slew of teenagers (of their own or parents volition) come looking for terminations.   People of disability and their families must have all the supports they need.   

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 09:24:56 AM
Quote from: Asal Mor on May 30, 2018, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).

Well no, they wouldn't. You don't get to tell people what they would believe.

One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 09:29:16 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 09:24:56 AM
Quote from: Asal Mor on May 30, 2018, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).

Well no, they wouldn't. You don't get to tell people what they would believe.

One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.
That's not euthanasia.
The Exit clinic in Zurich does assisted suicide but the person has to choose consciously and apply the material.
Euthanasia is without consent.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 09:58:14 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 09:29:16 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 09:24:56 AM
Quote from: Asal Mor on May 30, 2018, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
Anyone who is in favour of abortion being legalised would have to be in favour of euthanasia too, unless their notion of choice is very warped(I'm in favour of both).

Well no, they wouldn't. You don't get to tell people what they would believe.

One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.
That's not euthanasia.
The Exit clinic in Zurich does assisted suicide but the person has to choose consciously and apply the material.
Euthanasia is without consent.

No, it's not. Euthanasia covers a range of actions. You're specifically referring to non-voluntary euthanasia.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 30, 2018, 10:27:56 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 08:57:23 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 30, 2018, 07:44:17 AM
Euthanasia next? John Halligan thinks so.
If it meant more jobs for Waterford hospital he'd probably approve of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBP-M0ANMyM
there is no evidence anywhere of abortion law leading to euthanasia.

They probably consider it a gateway right. Hello abortion, goodbye Grandad.

Great post, Easytiger.
Hello 8th Amendment, goodbye Mammy would have been a much more accurate and pertninent slogan back in 1983.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 10:31:49 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 09:24:56 AM
One of the fundamental questions around abortion is the point at which life begins. That question doesn't exist for a discussion on euthanasia. A great many people would take issue with drawing an equivalence between the two.

That said, I too would be in favour of voluntary assisted dying for those with life limiting illnesses.

Abortion is several things rolled into one. The case of fatal faetal abnormality has something in common with euthanasia.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on May 30, 2018, 11:50:24 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

1) Not all priests and clergy believe or agree with the bullshit the likes of Doran and co come out with. 
2) There are two people involved in a marriage who may have different beliefs.
3) They don't even adhere to their own rules themselves. Leaving aside the scandals I don't see the bit in the bible about accumulating and hoarding wealth being a path to eternal life though I seem to remember something kind of opposite to that...

By excluding people these morons are guaranteeing their own extinction. I just hope the wealth at their disposal is put to good use to help the poor and the needy as they continue to downsize.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 11:56:53 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging.
Churches may have to be nationalised.
A few mass rocks could be jazzed up for use by any priest who wants to roll back the years.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

My whole point is that it's no longer their club or their rules. It's the people's club and the people are making the rules. The church building is only the clubhouse. These lads are just the caretakers and keyholders. They're no longer in a position to tell the club members when they can and can't come and go. If they lock the club and keep the keys what have they achieved?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 30, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
There are a huge amount of Northern posters on here and a lot of them seem to have an attachment to Roman Catholic religious dogma as an essential part of their identity, in order to differentiate themselves from "themmuns" - the irony being that they are far more similar to the DUP and their ilk than they ever realised.

I'm not sure they fully get, or get at all, how the rest of Ireland has moved on. I suspect they don't understand how most of their own community in the North itself has moved on either.

Kids these days look at religion in the same way most people look at two junkies shouting at each other on Talbot Street.

And it was the same when I was growing up in the 1980s and 1990s.

Religion is pretty much a total irrelevance in the 26 counties - the only small relevance it has is to be viewed with hostility.

And with good reason - the Roman Catholic Church is every bit as much a cult as Scientology.



Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Franko on May 30, 2018, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

My whole point is that it's no longer their club or their rules. It's the people's club and the people are making the rules. The church building is only the clubhouse. These lads are just the caretakers and keyholders. They're no longer in a position to tell the club members when they can and can't come and go. If they lock the club and keep the keys what have they achieved?

It is still their club and they still make the rules.  The problem for them is that the club is getting short on paying members.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:32:49 PM
Right on both counts Franko.
If you don't like the rules join another club.
By the way the C of I were advocating a NO vote.
I didn't see any comment from them but I expect Presbyterian and Methodist Churches would be likely Nos too.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 12:47:01 PM
Read online that the parish priest in Dunboyne has asked SVP to remove a clothing collection bank from church grounds as they didn't come out in support of a No vote.

Anyone heard anything on this?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 30, 2018, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

My whole point is that it's no longer their club or their rules. It's the people's club and the people are making the rules. The church building is only the clubhouse. These lads are just the caretakers and keyholders. They're no longer in a position to tell the club members when they can and can't come and go. If they lock the club and keep the keys what have they achieved?

It is still their club and they still make the rules.  The problem for them is that the club is getting short on paying members.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:32:49 PM
Right on both counts Franko.
If you don't like the rules join another club.
By the way the C of I were advocating a NO vote.
I didn't see any comment from them but I expect Presbyterian and Methodist Churches would be likely Nos too.

It's not their club when the majority of the members don't obey their rules and have devised a new, more relevant, useful and human set of rules by which they abide. Leaving aside the matter of who owns/runs the club, the point is that the clericalist behaviour is a like a scene of once all-powerful tyrants ranting at the telly, not understanding that they can't be heard.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: macdanger2 on May 30, 2018, 12:59:36 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

My whole point is that it's no longer their club or their rules. It's the people's club and the people are making the rules. The church building is only the clubhouse. These lads are just the caretakers and keyholders. They're no longer in a position to tell the club members when they can and can't come and go. If they lock the club and keep the keys what have they achieved?

Apparently that's one of the big tussles in the higher echelons of the church - stick to a traditional outlook and retain a much smaller but more committed following or change with the times and attempt to retain a large but perhaps loose enough following
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 01:59:03 PM
The thing is, it's their church too. Priests and other clergy don't own the "club", they are simply the caretakers/managers of it. Ones who are imposed on the members rather than chosen
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: johnnycool on May 30, 2018, 02:00:22 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

Nothing wrong with being à la carte in your religious outlook. Most of those filling the pews are just the same, ditto the pro life lad in Newry who the priest is playing hard ball with.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Franko on May 30, 2018, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 30, 2018, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

My whole point is that it's no longer their club or their rules. It's the people's club and the people are making the rules. The church building is only the clubhouse. These lads are just the caretakers and keyholders. They're no longer in a position to tell the club members when they can and can't come and go. If they lock the club and keep the keys what have they achieved?

It is still their club and they still make the rules.  The problem for them is that the club is getting short on paying members.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:32:49 PM
Right on both counts Franko.
If you don't like the rules join another club.
By the way the C of I were advocating a NO vote.
I didn't see any comment from them but I expect Presbyterian and Methodist Churches would be likely Nos too.

It's not their club when the majority of the members don't obey their rules and have devised a new, more relevant, useful and human set of rules by which they abide. Leaving aside the matter of who owns/runs the club, the point is that the clericalist behaviour is a like a scene of once all-powerful tyrants ranting at the telly, not understanding that they can't be heard.

Agree with your last sentence but you can't just argue that we forget about who owns and runs the club, in a discussion about who owns and runs a club.

The fact that most of the members choose not to obey the rules is secondary.  They are still the rules and the 'all-powerful tyrants' decide if/when to enforce them.

Unfortunately for the church hierarchy, the more rigidly they tend to do this, the more club members they tend to lose and this is the dilemma for them.  And again unfortunately for them, due to the absolutist and apparently infallible nature of the rules, they lose all credibility if they now try to relax them.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:48:50 PM
cultural catholicism is dying and I don't think it's a bad thing. the church isn't going to change for the "people" the people will just leave and what's left will hopefully be stronger....around the world young people are coming back to the church seeking what you call rigidity.  Latin prayers are popular again in catholic communities there is a move back towards the old ways and young people are embracing it.....

in your quest to "move on" in Ireland and remove the Church from all aspects of public life you lose in the end....

what i dont understand is the aggressiveness...why the S club of posters who are just angry all the time about anything to do with catholicism....its all very sad

abandoning the most vulnerable, abandoning the old (how merciful of you).....all in the name of "progress".  Wait and see what becomes of the island. Wait and see what your children will do for you when you're older because they learned that nothing matters and life is pointless....well done
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 02:53:39 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:48:50 PM
cultural catholicism is dying and I don't think it's a bad thing. the church isn't going to change for the "people" the people will just leave and what's left will hopefully be stronger....around the world young people are coming back to the church seeking what you call rigidity. Latin prayers are popular again in catholic communities there is a move back towards the old ways and young people are embracing it.....

in your quest to "move on" in Ireland and remove the Church from all aspects of public life you lose in the end....

what i dont understand is the aggressiveness...why the S club of posters who are just angry all the time about anything to do with catholicism....its all very sad

abandoning the most vulnerable, abandoning the old (how merciful of you).....all in the name of "progress".  Wait and see what becomes of the island. Wait and see what your children will do for you when you're older because they learned that nothing matters and life is pointless....well done

No they are not.

Unless you mean third world countries, and in which case it's of absolutely no relevance to this discussion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 30, 2018, 02:58:31 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 30, 2018, 10:31:10 AM
Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.
It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

Exactly. What this has done is drawn the teachings of this little club out into the open for all to see its stupidity clearly. If you still want to belong to this club then maybe you should take a look at yourself in the mirror.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 02:59:22 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:48:50 PM
what i dont understand is the aggressiveness...why the S club of posters who are just angry all the time about anything to do with catholicism....its all very sad


While I can't speak for everyone, for me it's definitely the never-ceasing emergence of stories of abuse and rape, especially of kids, by authority figures within the Church and subsequent cover ups that irks me the most. Then you the have the defenders of the church who try the "few bad apples" line all the time. Not really happy abouy that either.

Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

In what way does that prove your point? I go to Bruce Springsteen concerts a lot and they're always well attended. Doesn't mean his fanbase is growing.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:00:16 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

Yeah, no thanks. I'd rather look at every know statistic that shows precipitous drops in church attendance and identification overall, particularly in young people, over the anecdotal evidence of a conference.

Your church is dying, mate, and I'm absolutely delighted about it.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: grounded on May 30, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 03:14:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:00:16 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

Yeah, no thanks. I'd rather look at every know statistic that shows precipitous drops in church attendance and identification overall, particularly in young people, over the anecdotal evidence of a conference.

Your church is dying, mate, and I'm absolutely delighted about it.
you'll get to read that again at the end, buddy
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 03:14:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:00:16 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

Yeah, no thanks. I'd rather look at every know statistic that shows precipitous drops in church attendance and identification overall, particularly in young people, over the anecdotal evidence of a conference.

Your church is dying, mate, and I'm absolutely delighted about it.
you'll get to read that again at the end, buddy

The fûck?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: johnnycool on May 30, 2018, 03:18:38 PM
Quote from: grounded on May 30, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.

Luke 15:11-32
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: grounded on May 30, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.

The question is maybe look at modernising your fecking doctrine if everyone has decided it's rotten.

Why can't women be clergy? Is it the tits or the vagina that's the issue?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 30, 2018, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

What? A man of great principle like you. What will happen to your parents if you don't go - will they explode or something? I know Roscommon is a bit backward but surely a grown man can decide if he is going to church or not?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:29:50 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 30, 2018, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

What? A man of great principle like you. What will happen to your parents if you don't go - will they explode or something? I know Roscommon is a bit backward but surely a grown man can decide if he is going to church or not?

I really don't want to know what your personal life is like if the attitude you're displaying here transfers to it.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 30, 2018, 03:30:13 PM
Always wanted to go to a Eucharistic conference serious craic I'd say.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: grounded on May 30, 2018, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 30, 2018, 03:18:38 PM
Quote from: grounded on May 30, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.

Luke 15:11-32

This is it. Maybe its the aul Irish begrudgery!
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 30, 2018, 03:33:22 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:29:50 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 30, 2018, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

What? A man of great principle like you. What will happen to your parents if you don't go - will they explode or something? I know Roscommon is a bit backward but surely a grown man can decide if he is going to church or not?

I really don't want to know what your personal life is like if the attitude you're displaying here transfers to it.

When I was 16 or so, maybe 15, I said to the auld lassie this Church is some pile of shite mother - I think I will give it a miss. She said sound, its your decision. She goes to mass and I don't. Now I know Roscommon is 10 years socially behind the rest of Ireland but still...

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 30, 2018, 04:02:39 PM
I asked my mother how she felt that none of her children now goes to Mass... she said, "I dont care - Im here to save my soul not yours!"
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 30, 2018, 07:19:17 PM
Catholic funerals are anything but dignified. The deceased is sidelined and almost forgotten, it's as if the priest is more interested in sticking to the standard Saturday night/Sunday morning script and the dead person is thrown in as a sideshow. Last one I was at was for those kids who died in the Berkeley balcony collapse. There was about five priests present and they spent the first ten minutes buttering each other up and congratulating each other for the great fellas they were. It was a standard mass with a few extra convoluted rituals thrown in, but other than that the dead barely got a look in. We later went to a secular service for one of the dead girls at her university. They had photos up on display, snacks and soft drinks served, and people got up on stage and spoke about their memories of the deceased in a celebration of their lives. It was far more fitting and appropriate.

There'll be no priests anywhere near my funeral. Shower of self-important gobsh!tes, the whole bloody lot of them.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 30, 2018, 07:21:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes.

Is it just me or is that the most pathetic thing that has ever been said here? I could understand if you're still a young cub in your teens, but if you're an adult...
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 07:27:53 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 30, 2018, 07:21:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes.

Is it just me or is that the most pathetic thing that has ever been said here? I could understand if you're still a young cub in your teens, but if you're an adult...

Don't join the twat brigade, Eamonn. One mass a year doesn't kill me. Look beyond yourself for a second.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: ned on May 30, 2018, 07:41:14 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 07:27:53 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 30, 2018, 07:21:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes.

Is it just me or is that the most pathetic thing that has ever been said here? I could understand if you're still a young cub in your teens, but if you're an adult...

Don't join the twat brigade, Eamonn. One mass a year doesn't kill me. Look beyond yourself for a second.

It's easy to pontificate from afar. Many of us do or don't do things to appease or keep life simple into adulthood whether we agree or not. There's no harm in going once a year and sure isn't a chance to catch up with old acquaintances. I attended an anniversary mass for a relative last year. That was the first time outside of a funeral or wedding that I had set foot in a chapel for 25 years. My ma was delighted and I caught up with a few folks I hadn't seen in years. No great hardship.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: grounded on May 30, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 30, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:55:50 AM
The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.

The question is maybe look at modernising your fecking doctrine if everyone has decided it's rotten.

Why can't women be clergy? Is it the tits or the vagina that's the issue?
It's the property ownership implications. the catholic Church owns a lot of property. Single men don't have anyone to feed or any wives looking for a fair share.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Puckoon on May 30, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
Wouldn't be much of a Church fan - but fair enough if they extrapolate "the rules" and continue to take a hardline on their remaining congregations who for all intents and purposes can be called 'A la Carte' Catholics. They are going to have to draw some hard lines in the sand should their resolve to stamp out any degree of A la carte Catholicism and we could end up with tens of new variations of Protestantism coming out of the OG Catholic Church.

When the coffers dry and the diocese needs some Weddings and Christenings back in the door, we will see if money talks.

Personally I don't think they'll be allowed to let it get there. Rome will intervene but the Church as we know it, will not continue to endure. If it does persevere it will be come a minority religion.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: AZOffaly on May 30, 2018, 09:16:06 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on May 30, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
Wouldn't be much of a Church fan - but fair enough if they extrapolate "the rules" and continue to take a hardline on their remaining congregations who for all intents and purposes can be called 'A la Carte' Catholics. They are going to have to draw some hard lines in the sand should their resolve to stamp out any degree of A la carte Catholicism and we could end up with tens of new variations of Protestantism coming out of the OG Catholic Church.

When the coffers dry and the diocese needs some Weddings and Christenings back in the door, we will see if money talks.

Personally I don't think they'll be allowed to let it get there. Rome will intervene but the Church as we know it, will not continue to endure. If it does persevere it will be come a minority religion.

Agreed. I foresee a sort of Vatican Council, with more liberal re-interpretations of things like contraception and gay marriage. I also foresee women priests, or at least that male priests will be allowed marry. They have to do something about the number of vocations or it will die out anyway.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 30, 2018, 09:25:41 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 30, 2018, 09:16:06 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on May 30, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
Wouldn't be much of a Church fan - but fair enough if they extrapolate "the rules" and continue to take a hardline on their remaining congregations who for all intents and purposes can be called 'A la Carte' Catholics. They are going to have to draw some hard lines in the sand should their resolve to stamp out any degree of A la carte Catholicism and we could end up with tens of new variations of Protestantism coming out of the OG Catholic Church.

When the coffers dry and the diocese needs some Weddings and Christenings back in the door, we will see if money talks.

Personally I don't think they'll be allowed to let it get there. Rome will intervene but the Church as we know it, will not continue to endure. If it does persevere it will be come a minority religion.

Agreed. I foresee a sort of Vatican Council, with more liberal re-interpretations of things like contraception and gay marriage. I also foresee women priests, or at least that male priests will be allowed marry. They have to do something about the number of vocations or it will die out anyway.

They tell us that morals don't change over time, but over time they've had to adjust their morals through events like Vatican II. Crowd of eejits.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 10:42:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 30, 2018, 09:16:06 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on May 30, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
Wouldn't be much of a Church fan - but fair enough if they extrapolate "the rules" and continue to take a hardline on their remaining congregations who for all intents and purposes can be called 'A la Carte' Catholics. They are going to have to draw some hard lines in the sand should their resolve to stamp out any degree of A la carte Catholicism and we could end up with tens of new variations of Protestantism coming out of the OG Catholic Church.

When the coffers dry and the diocese needs some Weddings and Christenings back in the door, we will see if money talks.

Personally I don't think they'll be allowed to let it get there. Rome will intervene but the Church as we know it, will not continue to endure. If it does persevere it will be come a minority religion.

Agreed. I foresee a sort of Vatican Council, with more liberal re-interpretations of things like contraception and gay marriage. I also foresee women priests, or at least that male priests will be allowed marry. They have to do something about the number of vocations or it will die out anyway.
they can't build seminaries quick enough in Africa for the amount of young men entering the priesthood. Vocations are not dying they are just not being answered in the western world. Like Irish priests were planted all over the world in the last few hundred years, we will see African, Indian and Asian priests moving into parishes everywhere there is a shortage.
The Church wont change and it won't crumble, I believe. It's been here for 2000 years and faced many pressures from the masses (pardon the pun) and it's still here. I have never met a woman who said she was called to be a priest...I've never heard of it AZ and I move around in quite a lot of Catholic circles. My Mrs Aunt is a Mother Superior in PA and they have a load of young women joining the ranks every year.  The mission that the two Armagh priests belong to up in NY has 2 lads going into seminary in September one from Belfast and another from Tyrone.
I don't have my head in the sand and freely admit people are moving away but we're not all jumping ship.

I appreciate the respectful approach of you and Puck to the discussion. Pax
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 10:42:57 PM
The Church wont change and it won't crumble, I believe. It's been here for 2000 years and faced many pressures from the masses (pardon the pun) and it's still here.

In those 2000 years, the Church has changed beyond recognition.

You understand the Church you so devoutly follow bears little resemblance to that which Christ left behind, yes?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 10:59:17 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 10:42:57 PM
The Church wont change and it won't crumble, I believe. It's been here for 2000 years and faced many pressures from the masses (pardon the pun) and it's still here.

In those 2000 years, the Church has changed beyond recognition.

You understand the Church you so devoutly follow bears little resemblance to that which Christ left behind, yes?
You understand that Christ left the Church in charge under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide her? The Church still remains. I didn't say it was a carbon copy of day 1 or day 100 or day 1000, but it remains.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 30, 2018, 10:59:53 PM
The Roman Catholic Church (not "the Church" - there is no such thing as "the Church") only recognises the so called "right to life of the unborn" since 1869. So much for it not changing in 2,000 years.

As education levels rise, religion becomes less popular. Education levels in Ireland are a hell of a lot higher than they were 50 or even 30 years ago.

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 30, 2018, 11:09:01 PM
https://twitter.com/TheNewSeanKeany/status/1001868506122653698

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DedaDf_W4AEWFn0.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 30, 2018, 11:37:16 PM
It's an empire of property and wealth

Where are they sending the 'bad eggs' now?

My father broke his brother out of All Hallows College back in the late 60s.
He still thsnks him to this day
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Itchy on May 30, 2018, 11:47:26 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 10:59:17 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 30, 2018, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 10:42:57 PM
The Church wont change and it won't crumble, I believe. It's been here for 2000 years and faced many pressures from the masses (pardon the pun) and it's still here.

In those 2000 years, the Church has changed beyond recognition.

You understand the Church you so devoutly follow bears little resemblance to that which Christ left behind, yes?
You understand that Christ left the Church in charge under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide her? The Church still remains. I didn't say it was a carbon copy of day 1 or day 100 or day 1000, but it remains.

So we should talk to the holy spirit about recouping the money owed to the Irish state for compensation to sex abuse victims. Do you have a number for him?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 12:15:30 AM
Stands to reason that the church is recruiting in countries where poverty is rife and education levels are low. As societies become more educated they become less religious. I hear the tobacco industry is also making in-roads in Africa since more people in the western world are waking up to the scam they've been running. I'm sure as living standards in Africa improve then the people of that continent will rid themselves of tobacco, religion, and other menaces.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: longballin on May 31, 2018, 12:23:07 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 12:15:30 AM
Stands to reason that the church is recruiting in countries where poverty is rife and education levels are low. As societies become more educated they become less religious. I hear the tobacco industry is also making in-roads in Africa since more people in the western world are waking up to the scam they've been running. I'm sure as living standards in Africa improve then the people of that continent will rid themselves of tobacco, religion, and other menaces.

Yeah church draws itself to the most vulnerable sadly not for the most altruistic reasons... abuse, control and exploit.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on May 31, 2018, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 30, 2018, 10:59:17 PM

You understand that Christ left the Church in charge under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide her?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/wbPu91ryqan1m/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 31, 2018, 08:59:58 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 30, 2018, 09:16:06 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on May 30, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
Wouldn't be much of a Church fan - but fair enough if they extrapolate "the rules" and continue to take a hardline on their remaining congregations who for all intents and purposes can be called 'A la Carte' Catholics. They are going to have to draw some hard lines in the sand should their resolve to stamp out any degree of A la carte Catholicism and we could end up with tens of new variations of Protestantism coming out of the OG Catholic Church.

When the coffers dry and the diocese needs some Weddings and Christenings back in the door, we will see if money talks.

Personally I don't think they'll be allowed to let it get there. Rome will intervene but the Church as we know it, will not continue to endure. If it does persevere it will be come a minority religion.

Agreed. I foresee a sort of Vatican Council, with more liberal re-interpretations of things like contraception and gay marriage. I also foresee women priests, or at least that male priests will be allowed marry. They have to do something about the number of vocations or it will die out anyway.

Well said. There's hardly any body joining the priesthood now.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2018, 12:03:56 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-tells-st-vincent-de-paul-to-remove-clothing-bank-from-church-car-park-in-row-over-eighth-campaign-36963884.html
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 31, 2018, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2018, 12:03:56 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-tells-st-vincent-de-paul-to-remove-clothing-bank-from-church-car-park-in-row-over-eighth-campaign-36963884.html

How very Christian of him.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 31, 2018, 02:31:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 28, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-who-voted-yes-should-consider-confession-says-bishop-1.3511127

Could you throw him a few quid to help with the pope's visit and go to one of the papal masses?  Would that earn an indulgence to offset your vote?

/Jim.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on May 31, 2018, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 31, 2018, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2018, 12:03:56 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-tells-st-vincent-de-paul-to-remove-clothing-bank-from-church-car-park-in-row-over-eighth-campaign-36963884.html

How very Christian of him.

Quite the opposite.
The bishop will not be impressed.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: gallsman on May 31, 2018, 08:02:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2018, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 31, 2018, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2018, 12:03:56 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-tells-st-vincent-de-paul-to-remove-clothing-bank-from-church-car-park-in-row-over-eighth-campaign-36963884.html

How very Christian of him.

Quite the opposite.
The bishop will not be impressed.

Yes, that was the joke...

Some of the best "Christians" I know are committed atheists.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: LeoMc on June 01, 2018, 08:38:17 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2018, 12:03:56 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-tells-st-vincent-de-paul-to-remove-clothing-bank-from-church-car-park-in-row-over-eighth-campaign-36963884.html

"Now that the campaign is over I have contacted our local SVP society to reinstate the clothes bank and I am happy to work closely with the society in the parish."

Sounds like he got his knuckles rapped for that.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
Another fcukwit puts his foot in his mouth - the same dunce who made a fool of himself with his comments about the HPV vaccine last year.

Nobody will have to "kill off" the Roman Catholic Church in this country.

The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations
Alphonsus Cullinan said Catholic Yes voters "should go to confession".

http://www.thejournal.ie/bishop-alphonsus-cullinan-abortion-4049693-Jun2018/
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.
While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on June 02, 2018, 04:43:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.
While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

What.. the.. fûck?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Hardy on June 02, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.

While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

Funnily enough, gratuitously judgemental and insulting shite like this is one of the things that people voted against.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
Quote from: Hardy on June 02, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.

While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

Funnily enough, gratuitously judgemental and insulting shite like this is one of the things that people voted against.

You can make a case that abortion is unavoidable in certain circumstances, but whooping and cheering and drinking champagne at the prospect of more abortion is disgusting. Note that you, or all these others you mention, seem to have no problem making a judgment about my comment, which is typical hypocrisy. 
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on June 02, 2018, 08:51:50 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
Quote from: Hardy on June 02, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.

While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

Funnily enough, gratuitously judgemental and insulting shite like this is one of the things that people voted against.

You can make a case that abortion is unavoidable in certain circumstances, but whooping and cheering and drinking champagne at the prospect of more abortion is disgusting. Note that you, or all these others you mention, seem to have no problem making a judgment about my comment, which is typical hypocrisy.

You do know they're celebrating basic womens' rights and the lives of women being safeguarded, not the act of abortion, right? Right?

..right???

Why do you feel the need to lie to make a point?
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 09:58:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 02, 2018, 08:51:50 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
Quote from: Hardy on June 02, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.

While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

Funnily enough, gratuitously judgemental and insulting shite like this is one of the things that people voted against.

You can make a case that abortion is unavoidable in certain circumstances, but whooping and cheering and drinking champagne at the prospect of more abortion is disgusting. Note that you, or all these others you mention, seem to have no problem making a judgment about my comment, which is typical hypocrisy.

You do know they're celebrating basic womens' rights and the lives of women being safeguarded, not the act of abortion, right? Right?

..right???

Why do you feel the need to lie to make a point?

I believe the euthanasia referendum will be a mighty party altogether.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on June 03, 2018, 12:52:58 AM
This was the lead story on today's Irish edition of The Times.

Lovely people, those anti-abortionists...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/belfast-pregnancy-clinic-said-abortion-fills-breasts-with-cancer-x2btsc0bz

A Northern Irish pregnancy centre set up by US anti-abortion activists is falsely telling women that abortion causes breast cancer and infertility, an undercover investigation has found.

A counsellor at the Belfast clinic of Stanton Healthcare was secretly recorded telling an undercover reporter that she was "too beautiful for abortion" and a termination would make her breasts "fill with cancer".

The false claims were condemned by a senior gynaecologist as "despicable" bullying of vulnerable women.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 03, 2018, 10:25:13 AM
Oh the hypocrisy - you and your ilk continue to post poisonous commentary to this forum.
Sadly it appears to be your main pastime - "internet blowhard" I believe is your own description.
An idle mind is the devil's workshop - go and find something useful and constructive to do with your time.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on June 03, 2018, 11:26:34 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on June 03, 2018, 10:25:13 AM
Oh the hypocrisy - you and your ilk continue to post poisonous commentary to this forum.
Sadly it appears to be your main pastime - "internet blowhard" I believe is your own description.
An idle mind is the devil's workshop - go and find something useful and constructive to do with your time.
One thing idle minds most certainly are is fodder for brainwashing by conservative fundamentalist dogma, and you're a very good example of that.

On this thread you have displayed a consistent inability to think for yourself in any aspect. It's both comical and sad in equal measure.

No comment from either you or the other anti-abortionist nutters about this fake clinic's bullying lies to vulnerable women.

One guess as to why that is.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: whitey on June 03, 2018, 01:09:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 03, 2018, 11:26:34 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on June 03, 2018, 10:25:13 AM
Oh the hypocrisy - you and your ilk continue to post poisonous commentary to this forum.
Sadly it appears to be your main pastime - "internet blowhard" I believe is your own description.
An idle mind is the devil's workshop - go and find something useful and constructive to do with your time.
One thing idle minds most certainly are is fodder for brainwashing by conservative fundamentalist dogma, and you're a very good example of that.

On this thread you have displayed a consistent inability to think for yourself in any aspect. It's both comical and sad in equal measure.

No comment from either you or the other anti-abortionist nutters about this fake clinic's bullying lies to vulnerable women.

One guess as to why that is.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ruth-coppinger-to-seek-to-remove-insulting-72-hour-wait-for-abortion-845721.html

I see your girlfriend Ruth Coppinger is already campaigning to abolish the 72 hour waiting period.

Im sure shes all for terminations, up to and including the date of birth

Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on June 03, 2018, 01:13:32 PM
Probably best to give Sid visious the fools pardon.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Orchard park on June 03, 2018, 01:34:29 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
Quote from: Hardy on June 02, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.

While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

Funnily enough, gratuitously judgemental and insulting shite like this is one of the things that people voted against.

You can make a case that abortion is unavoidable in certain circumstances, but whooping and cheering and drinking champagne at the prospect of more abortion is disgusting. Note that you, or all these others you mention, seem to have no problem making a judgment about my comment, which is typical hypocrisy.


I voted yes, proud to do so , so that finally ad an  independent republic we stood up, opened our eyes and decided to deal with a problem instead of hypocritically having our constitution enable the export of the issue as had happened for the past 50 plus years, before thst the state outsourced the issueto thd religious orders  and innocent babies either were sold to USA or ended up in a septic tank in Tuam....

So maybe no need for champers or msybd therdbix to svknowledge as a republic we sre maturing  in our decision making...
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on June 03, 2018, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on June 03, 2018, 01:34:29 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
Quote from: Hardy on June 02, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.

While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

Funnily enough, gratuitously judgemental and insulting shite like this is one of the things that people voted against.

You can make a case that abortion is unavoidable in certain circumstances, but whooping and cheering and drinking champagne at the prospect of more abortion is disgusting. Note that you, or all these others you mention, seem to have no problem making a judgment about my comment, which is typical hypocrisy.


I voted yes, proud to do so , so that finally ad an  independent republic we stood up, opened our eyes and decided to deal with a problem instead of hypocritically having our constitution enable the export of the issue as had happened for the past 50 plus years, before thst the state outsourced the issueto thd religious orders  and innocent babies either were sold to USA or ended up in a septic tank in Tuam....

So maybe no need for champers or msybd therdbix to svknowledge as a republic we sre maturing  in our decision making...

Yeah, no. A lot of those campaigners invested years of their lives to get those basic rights. It was a battle for every last concession and step forward for them. FFS, it took us this long to truly legislate for the implications of the X case, now a quarter century old - that is an incredible lack of courage on Ireland's behalf as a government and as a country.

This forum has some absolutely batshît opinions on women's issues and this obsession with the celebration of a wonderful endorsement of them as equal citizens is high on the list.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Rudi on June 03, 2018, 03:27:17 PM
I am usually pro choice. Individuals should be left to make their own decisions for good or bad. In this case 3 were involved the mother father and baby. The baby had absolutely no say, the fathers say is incredibly limited too. Regarding voluntary euthanasia its up to the individual, kicking religion out of school dont care, they do own the land and buildings which would be an issue. People who voted yes because of the church are flawed.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: sid waddell on June 03, 2018, 04:13:26 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 03, 2018, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on June 03, 2018, 01:34:29 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
Quote from: Hardy on June 02, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
The most effective people at doing that have always been those in the Roman Catholic Church itself.


'How can you cheer abortion?': Bishop 'horrified' by referendum celebrations

Any decent person would find the recent "celebrations" disgusting.

While change was needed the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other.

Funnily enough, gratuitously judgemental and insulting shite like this is one of the things that people voted against.

You can make a case that abortion is unavoidable in certain circumstances, but whooping and cheering and drinking champagne at the prospect of more abortion is disgusting. Note that you, or all these others you mention, seem to have no problem making a judgment about my comment, which is typical hypocrisy.


I voted yes, proud to do so , so that finally ad an  independent republic we stood up, opened our eyes and decided to deal with a problem instead of hypocritically having our constitution enable the export of the issue as had happened for the past 50 plus years, before thst the state outsourced the issueto thd religious orders  and innocent babies either were sold to USA or ended up in a septic tank in Tuam....

So maybe no need for champers or msybd therdbix to svknowledge as a republic we sre maturing  in our decision making...

Yeah, no. A lot of those campaigners invested years of their lives to get those basic rights. It was a battle for every last concession and step forward for them. FFS, it took us this long to truly legislate for the implications of the X case, now a quarter century old - that is an incredible lack of courage on Ireland's behalf as a government and as a country.

This forum has some absolutely batshît opinions on women's issues and this obsession with the celebration of a wonderful endorsement of them as equal citizens is high on the list.
What's hilarious is that these posters still seem to be labouring under the delusion that these are "normal" views and that they are "normal" people, as opposed to being a total laughing stock.

I suppose they might be "normal views" if one exclusively mixes within a cohort of people who all vote for Jim Allister.

But in the real world.....nah.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: Syferus on June 03, 2018, 04:19:34 PM
Quote from: Rudi on June 03, 2018, 03:27:17 PM
I am usually pro choice. Individuals should be left to make their own decisions for good or bad. In this case 3 were involved the mother father and baby. The baby had absolutely no say, the fathers say is incredibly limited too. Regarding voluntary euthanasia its up to the individual, kicking religion out of school dont care, they do own the land and buildings which would be an issue. People who voted yes because of the church are flawed.

Do you seriously think anyone voting Yes on a womens' rights issue did so because of a church whose influence on present day society is absolutely minuscule? People who voted Yes simply do not care enough about the church for it to influence their decision either way.

You're giving the church far too much credit (not for the first time) and far too little respect for the motivatations of the 67% of people who were Yes voters.
Title: Re: Eighth Amendment poll
Post by: magpie seanie on June 05, 2018, 09:38:40 AM
Someone lock this thread please.