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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: tyroneman on August 06, 2019, 03:35:18 PM

Title: Shipyard
Post by: tyroneman on August 06, 2019, 03:35:18 PM
Just curious on this one... as someone who doesn't live in Belfast.....while no-one wants to see folks lose their jobs....is there a cogent economic argument to be made for public money to be used in a H&W bail out (over AN Other local company that's failing), given they only employ 120 odd staff, or it is purely a symbolic issue?
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: screenexile on August 06, 2019, 03:42:37 PM
Quote from: tyroneman on August 06, 2019, 03:35:18 PM
Just curious on this one... as someone who doesn't live in Belfast.....is there a cogent economic argument to be made for public money to be used in a H&W bail out (over AN Other local company that's failing), given they only employ 120 odd staff, or it is more a symbolic issue?

Symbolic issue... load of balls they see themselves as some kind of iconic Belfast industry but they built an unsinkable ship that f**king sank and were the posterboy for treating Catholics as second class citizens f**k them they shouldn't get special treatment!!!

We'll keep the cranes though!
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: playwiththewind1st on August 06, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
Symbolic. ..especially to Loyalists. Well, only to Loyalists really. Reference Sam Thompson's play "Over The Bridge".
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: tyroneman on August 06, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Was there a marked swing from the cold house it was in the bad old days towards it being an inclusive workplace now?

Doubt you would have had SF standing with them and the workers speaking Irish back in the 70s
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Rois on August 06, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Another core reason being the horrific pension liabilities.

Buying out of administration makes more sense.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 06, 2019, 04:21:43 PM
They diversified into offshore energy and civil engineering years ago but it didn't seem to be good enough. I suspect the land they're occupying could be put to more productive use now. A lot of prime real estate there, would be a great place for loft apartments and the like.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: playwiththewind1st on August 06, 2019, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Another core reason being the horrific pension liabilities.

Buying out of administration makes more sense.

Sir Philip Green could advise them on that little matter, I am quite sure.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Owen Brannigan on August 06, 2019, 05:19:31 PM
When all of the yearning for the good/bad old days is gone, it will become clear that the days of heavy engineering in the yard are gone. The work can be done cheaper elsewhere, they have tried it all, making wind turbines, outfitting or refitting smaller cruise ships, repairing oil rigs, etc and none of these have worked.

Belfast is one of the last places in western Europe to have to come to terms with this situation and the loss of it's ship building heritage. The fact is that the land covered by the yard is more valuable for development than to use the facilities for engineering.

It's not the only place to have the so called iconic cranes and to have lost it's work in shipbuilding. take a look at this picture I took last week in Gothenburg. The crane is now used for bunny jumping and look at the expensive apartments that have been built over the shipyard around the crane:

(https://i.imgur.com/kV1SV25.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 05:21:20 PM
I served my time as an apprentice shipbuilder (weder/plater/fabricator) in Harlands, started in 88 as a 16 year old Falls road man, times were changing, as the equal opportunities was becoming a thorn in their side at the time, so taigs needed to be employed!

Now there was a huge reluctance at the time from many a lad from a catholic background but myself and 3 other lads from my school all carried out the skills and written test before getting interviews and accepting an apprenticeship.

I personally never felt any threat, even though the place was covered from head to toe in the biggest flegs you'll ever see, and they marched every year around the dock before knocking off for 3 week at July! was bizzare but again it didnt bother me,

I got my education in engineering, no expense spared in fairness to them, enabled me to teach students in later years and I can't fault the place on how i was treated.

BUT, and its a big but, there was some serious loyalist bstards there, who'd have cut your throat on a night out, catholic father/grandfather was killed on the boat one night during overtime, nobody caught also. So it was pretty bad at times.

Work wise, once it was bought over by Olsen it took a different direction in terms of orders and the like, Harlands couldnt compete with Aisan market and eventually the workforce wasnt there to attract orders and be competitive, as they would have had to pay more for ones coming in from Scotland and Newcastle, digs, more wages ect.  to win an order you've got to show that you can actually do the job, unless they could show that then they were not going to win much orders.

Yes it was a black hole and some of the workers were lazy shits but the skill set was outstanding to be honest, at one time everything that was needed to make a boat/ship was done in the shipyard, nothing brought in from outside.

Not sustainable now,so it has to close, I hope they keep the cranes
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: seafoid on August 06, 2019, 05:50:15 PM
Symbolic of the NI economy

All of the Unionist industries that justified the existence of a NI statelet have collapsed and the South
is far richer now and even Tyrone have won All Irelands so everything is different.
Plus the highest number of firms going bust since 2016.

Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?

Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Rois on August 06, 2019, 08:11:41 PM
Tax payer takes over through the Pension Protection Fund.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?

We did, built three drill ships which were fantastic in design and engineering. But eventually the last one we built for Global marine really broke the bank, literally. Never really recovered from that, had we made profit from that and started to get the into that they could have made a market for it.

Once that left, the workforce and skills left with it, you can't get them back
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: 6th sam on August 06, 2019, 11:35:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?

We did, built three drill ships which were fantastic in design and engineering. But eventually the last one we built for Global marine really broke the bank, literally. Never really recovered from that, had we made profit from that and started to get the into that they could have made a market for it.

Once that left, the workforce and skills left with it, you can't get them back

Good to get that insider info MR.
The loss of jobs is tragic though I imagine some will be near retirement.  The skill set is very specific so similar reemployment unlikely. Any word of unionist politicians saving and creating jobs rather than pushing Brexit and saving the union. The working class have been very badly represented by our politicians whose focus is on getting re-elected rather than prioritising what it's important: jobs, health, education, standard and cost of living. What s basket case OWC is
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 11:49:36 PM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 08:11:41 PM
Tax payer takes over through the Pension Protection Fund.

Got a letter the other day about the pension. Private firm looking after it now. Probably worth about 1 quid a week
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 07, 2019, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?

We did, built three drill ships which were fantastic in design and engineering. But eventually the last one we built for Global marine really broke the bank, literally. Never really recovered from that, had we made profit from that and started to get the into that they could have made a market for it.

Once that left, the workforce and skills left with it, you can't get them back

Where those ships actually designed in Belfast? I thought they were designed in Houston or Norway or somewhere and the building of the ship was contracted to H&W..?

Anyway I wasnt getting at further shipbuilding.... think its gone East and thats that... was more thinking of developing products for offshore renewables. But maybe thats not as heavy and its hard to justify the two gantries etc

Tho in saying that Singapore is a high cost economy that maintains a ship building presence
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: mackers on August 07, 2019, 10:21:18 AM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 08:11:41 PM
Tax payer takes over through the Pension Protection Fund.
That's incorrect.  The PPF is not funded by the taxpayer.  It's mostly funded by a levy on all defined benefit pension schemes, like an insurance premium.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 07, 2019, 10:36:31 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 07, 2019, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?

We did, built three drill ships which were fantastic in design and engineering. But eventually the last one we built for Global marine really broke the bank, literally. Never really recovered from that, had we made profit from that and started to get the into that they could have made a market for it.

Once that left, the workforce and skills left with it, you can't get them back

Where those ships actually designed in Belfast? I thought they were designed in Houston or Norway or somewhere and the building of the ship was contracted to H&W..?

Anyway I wasnt getting at further shipbuilding.... think its gone East and thats that... was more thinking of developing products for offshore renewables. But maybe thats not as heavy and its hard to justify the two gantries etc

Tho in saying that Singapore is a high cost economy that maintains a ship building presence

Those ships were initially designed as you say in Texas, Global Marine and BP had other designs, but they were always involving, the design team at Harlands were top notch and new designs were added as the ships were progressed, the standard of the finished ship was amazing. Just couldnt make them at a profit, they were called shipyard busters, as most shipyards went bust after the contract was done!
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Tyrdub on August 07, 2019, 11:00:01 AM
Quote from: tyroneman on August 06, 2019, 03:35:18 PM
Just curious on this one... as someone who doesn't live in Belfast.....while no-one wants to see folks lose their jobs....is there a cogent economic argument to be made for public money to be used in a H&W bail out (over AN Other local company that's failing), given they only employ 120 odd staff, or it is purely a symbolic issue?

Friend of mine works in the office, luckily she starts a new job in a fortnight, though they have asked her to stay on for a few days. Its not just the 120 directly employed people, there are hundreds of contractors this will affect who will all lose their jobs as well. Another friend supplies fixings, bolts etc into the yard, he was put on his notice yesterday as well.

Up to a few weeks ago a cruise ship fitout company was looking into buying it out, more than likely to strip the yard and just hold on to the dry dock to facilitate cruise ship repairs but this feel through
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: seafoid on August 07, 2019, 11:09:25 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?
The neoliberal UK let its industry rot. The car industry is falling apart . Deindustrialisation was imposed on the north of England and Wales in the 80s
and the people left to deal with the fallout. If H+W had been in Germany the people would have been looked after.
Being in the UK over the last 40 years has been a drag on NI. It's too small and too peripheral to make money from speculation on steroids.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: red hander on August 07, 2019, 02:40:08 PM
Remember a few years back they got contract to build/refit one of the big Killybegs trawlers, finished the job, but on night before it was due to be handed over 'mysteriously' caught fire and was gutted. Sectarian cesspit, it'll not be missed
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 07, 2019, 03:58:37 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 07, 2019, 10:36:31 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 07, 2019, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?

We did, built three drill ships which were fantastic in design and engineering. But eventually the last one we built for Global marine really broke the bank, literally. Never really recovered from that, had we made profit from that and started to get the into that they could have made a market for it.

Once that left, the workforce and skills left with it, you can't get them back

Where those ships actually designed in Belfast? I thought they were designed in Houston or Norway or somewhere and the building of the ship was contracted to H&W..?

Anyway I wasnt getting at further shipbuilding.... think its gone East and thats that... was more thinking of developing products for offshore renewables. But maybe thats not as heavy and its hard to justify the two gantries etc

Tho in saying that Singapore is a high cost economy that maintains a ship building presence

Those ships were initially designed as you say in Texas, Global Marine and BP had other designs, but they were always involving, the design team at Harlands were top notch and new designs were added as the ships were progressed, the standard of the finished ship was amazing. Just couldnt make them at a profit, they were called shipyard busters, as most shipyards went bust after the contract was done!

Ah right....over engineered for manufacture..... in saying that tho that's obviously a failure on the contract end, should have been factored into the cost. But perhaps those high end contracts were the only ones that appeared initially profitable?
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: TheOptimist on August 07, 2019, 05:14:43 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 07, 2019, 03:58:37 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 07, 2019, 10:36:31 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 07, 2019, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 06, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 06, 2019, 07:46:10 PM
The problem was although it diversified it didnt really change its business model.
It still remained a contractor, it should have changed to selling a product or at least partnered with a design company in offshore renewable or something where they would have had global expertise. This should have been done 20 years ago or even 10 might have saved it. Would have meant too much restructuring at the time which is why they probably didn't do it but there is no reason why they couldn't at least been exploring it.

Out of interest what will happen with the pension liabilities if/when the company folds?

We did, built three drill ships which were fantastic in design and engineering. But eventually the last one we built for Global marine really broke the bank, literally. Never really recovered from that, had we made profit from that and started to get the into that they could have made a market for it.

Once that left, the workforce and skills left with it, you can't get them back

Where those ships actually designed in Belfast? I thought they were designed in Houston or Norway or somewhere and the building of the ship was contracted to H&W..?

Anyway I wasnt getting at further shipbuilding.... think its gone East and thats that... was more thinking of developing products for offshore renewables. But maybe thats not as heavy and its hard to justify the two gantries etc

Tho in saying that Singapore is a high cost economy that maintains a ship building presence

Those ships were initially designed as you say in Texas, Global Marine and BP had other designs, but they were always involving, the design team at Harlands were top notch and new designs were added as the ships were progressed, the standard of the finished ship was amazing. Just couldnt make them at a profit, they were called shipyard busters, as most shipyards went bust after the contract was done!

Ah right....over engineered for manufacture..... in saying that tho that's obviously a failure on the contract end, should have been factored into the cost. But perhaps those high end contracts were the only ones that appeared initially profitable?

Not too mention if workers were seemingly swinging the lead the costs would spiral!
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 07, 2019, 06:42:37 PM
Look the mindset of shipyard workers was completely different. There was always a sense of entitlement, there was no question about the workforce (Harlands own) having skills and abilities,  but bringing those skills in line with working to deadlines was impossible because some people were swinging the lead.

I remember after the management employee buy out, there was an attempt to educate the workforce on how their time off and slow work would affect the future planning and finishing ships on time, there was always huge financial cost when it wasn't finished on time, they brought in bonuses for no time off over the year, shop bonuses for meeting targets and this helped but we could never meet the targets set by buyers!

Time in motion was brought in for a while and everyone was time measured, individual targets were given and this was used as a poor management tool if I'm being honest. Some people could do jobs quicker and better than others, with less effort.

There was major flaws with Harlands, mainly the bigotry and employment issues. Outside of that it produced some fine ships. As for the titanic, it was made to the safety specifications of the day, was poorly handled with hitting an iceberg, hardly the Shipyards fault.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 07, 2019, 07:54:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 07, 2019, 06:42:37 PM
Look the mindset of shipyard workers was completely different. There was always a sense of entitlement, there was no question about the workforce (Harlands own) having skills and abilities,  but bringing those skills in line with working to deadlines was impossible because some people were swinging the lead.

I remember after the management employee buy out, there was an attempt to educate the workforce on how their time off and slow work would affect the future planning and finishing ships on time, there was always huge financial cost when it wasn't finished on time, they brought in bonuses for no time off over the year, shop bonuses for meeting targets and this helped but we could never meet the targets set by buyers!

Time in motion was brought in for a while and everyone was time measured, individual targets were given and this was used as a poor management tool if I'm being honest. Some people could do jobs quicker and better than others, with less effort.

There was major flaws with Harlands, mainly the bigotry and employment issues. Outside of that it produced some fine ships. As for the titanic, it was made to the safety specifications of the day, was poorly handled with hitting an iceberg, hardly the Shipyards fault.

Should have got into this stuff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk#Shooting_incident

that wudda showed the iceberg who was boss!

....Might be fecked now anyway with Global warming tho!
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 08, 2019, 09:40:17 AM
It's only 120 jobs. While sad for those families it's a casualty of progress. It was / is a sectarian shithole but still sad for those families involved.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: johnnycool on August 08, 2019, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Another core reason being the horrific pension liabilities.

Buying out of administration makes more sense.

I was thinking that myself especially when it became clear there was a hole in the pension pot.

A new buyer won't take that liability, the Government will have to, but maybe not the full amount and some pensions might have to get trimmed by 10% or whatever.

There'll also be new terms and conditions for the staff unless the new owner offers to honour the TUPE process, but they are in the box seat if a new owner can be found.

I also don't get the "iconic" status of H&W as it was very much jobs for the boys and those boys wouldn't have been too welcoming to someone from my community back in the day.

Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Franko on August 08, 2019, 10:20:26 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 08, 2019, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Another core reason being the horrific pension liabilities.

Buying out of administration makes more sense.

I was thinking that myself especially when it became clear there was a hole in the pension pot.

A new buyer won't take that liability, the Government will have to, but maybe not the full amount and some pensions might have to get trimmed by 10% or whatever.

There'll also be new terms and conditions for the staff unless the new owner offers to honour the TUPE process, but they are in the box seat if a new owner can be found.

I also don't get the "iconic" status of H&W as it was very much jobs for the boys and those boys wouldn't have been too welcoming to someone from my community back in the day.

Agreed.  There was nothing 'iconic' about the yard at all.  A sectarian shithole.  The cranes are a famous landmark and will no doubt survive.

Feel sorry for those who are losing their jobs, it can't be a good time.  Apart from that I'd say good riddance to another symbol of unionist dominance.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on August 08, 2019, 11:19:47 AM
Real estate developers are circling. You will also be able to pay to do a skywalk along the top of the cranes soon.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 03:00:05 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 08, 2019, 10:20:26 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 08, 2019, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Another core reason being the horrific pension liabilities.

Buying out of administration makes more sense.

I was thinking that myself especially when it became clear there was a hole in the pension pot.

A new buyer won't take that liability, the Government will have to, but maybe not the full amount and some pensions might have to get trimmed by 10% or whatever.

There'll also be new terms and conditions for the staff unless the new owner offers to honour the TUPE process, but they are in the box seat if a new owner can be found.

I also don't get the "iconic" status of H&W as it was very much jobs for the boys and those boys wouldn't have been too welcoming to someone from my community back in the day.

Agreed.  There was nothing 'iconic' about the yard at all.  A sectarian shithole.  The cranes are a famous landmark and will no doubt survive.

Feel sorry for those who are losing their jobs, it can't be a good time.  Apart from that I'd say good riddance to another symbol of unionist dominance.

And when Shorts closes its doors that will be another nail in the symbol of unionist dominance!

Lets close all the unionist companies up the Shankill and Newtownards road while your at it
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: playwiththewind1st on August 08, 2019, 03:24:17 PM
We shall not foresake the dole of Ulster for the PRSI of an Irish Republic.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: johnnycool on August 08, 2019, 04:21:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 03:00:05 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 08, 2019, 10:20:26 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 08, 2019, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Another core reason being the horrific pension liabilities.

Buying out of administration makes more sense.

I was thinking that myself especially when it became clear there was a hole in the pension pot.

A new buyer won't take that liability, the Government will have to, but maybe not the full amount and some pensions might have to get trimmed by 10% or whatever.

There'll also be new terms and conditions for the staff unless the new owner offers to honour the TUPE process, but they are in the box seat if a new owner can be found.

I also don't get the "iconic" status of H&W as it was very much jobs for the boys and those boys wouldn't have been too welcoming to someone from my community back in the day.

Agreed.  There was nothing 'iconic' about the yard at all.  A sectarian shithole.  The cranes are a famous landmark and will no doubt survive.

Feel sorry for those who are losing their jobs, it can't be a good time.  Apart from that I'd say good riddance to another symbol of unionist dominance.

And when Shorts closes its doors that will be another nail in the symbol of unionist dominance!

Lets close all the unionist companies up the Shankill and Newtownards road while your at it

Shorts/Bombardier are just another employer, if they go against the wall it's because what they're doing isn't a viable business.
They'd have went to the wall if it wasn't for Government subsidies years ago.

I've worked for a company who went to the wall who in their day employed over 1K people, it's not nice, but you dust yourself down and get on with it.

These iconic industries need to move with the times or die. I don't buy this iconic bullshit.

Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.

As for the nationalisation of the business I find that laughable. If the same fate was going to befall Powerscreen they would be told to catch themselves on.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: armaghniac on August 08, 2019, 04:51:34 PM
I think some here have a poor understanding of the English language, or perhaps think it should be interpreted according to your political view, Brexit style.

The shipyard is iconic for Belfast, any view with the cranes in the background says "Belfast". It was a formidable centre of world class engineering for a century. It is also entirely representative of the sick underbelly of Norn Iron society. Many tried hard to keep it that way, but many others worked there for a job.
Its day is done, but people should not be welcoming the end of such institutions, but hoping for their reform to be normal places while still having world stature.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Owen Brannigan on August 08, 2019, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.


The cranes are not unique but other European cities with the same cranes have used in them in developing their redundant shipbuilding facilities with the cranes included as reminders of their industrial heritage.

(https://i.imgur.com/kV1SV25.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 08, 2019, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.


The cranes are not unique but other European cities with the same cranes have used in them in developing their redundant shipbuilding facilities with the cranes included as reminders of their industrial heritage.


Aye we got the picture first time around...

Just cos Gothenburg decided to keep an eyesore doesnt mean Belfast should do the same. You can acknowledge the past without having it dominating the present
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Maiden1 on August 08, 2019, 05:09:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 08, 2019, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.


The cranes are not unique but other European cities with the same cranes have used in them in developing their redundant shipbuilding facilities with the cranes included as reminders of their industrial heritage.


Aye we got the picture first time around...

Just cos Gothenburg decided to keep an eyesore doesnt mean Belfast should do the same. You can acknowledge the past without having it dominating the present
There are cruise ships come in to Belfast nearly every day of the week.  Visit the hole in the ground, go up the cranes, titanic museum, bus tour of the site brings a lot of money into Belfast every year.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 07:20:45 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on August 08, 2019, 05:09:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 08, 2019, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.


The cranes are not unique but other European cities with the same cranes have used in them in developing their redundant shipbuilding facilities with the cranes included as reminders of their industrial heritage.


Aye we got the picture first time around...

Just cos Gothenburg decided to keep an eyesore doesnt mean Belfast should do the same. You can acknowledge the past without having it dominating the present
There are cruise ships come in to Belfast nearly every day of the week.  Visit the hole in the ground, go up the cranes, titanic museum, bus tour of the site brings a lot of money into Belfast every year.

Well thats a fair point actually... if they can pay for themselves they are probably worth the monstrosity... would they not get the ships anyway tho?... prob no way of gauging it.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Maiden1 on August 08, 2019, 07:38:39 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 07:20:45 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on August 08, 2019, 05:09:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 08, 2019, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.


The cranes are not unique but other European cities with the same cranes have used in them in developing their redundant shipbuilding facilities with the cranes included as reminders of their industrial heritage.


Aye we got the picture first time around...

Just cos Gothenburg decided to keep an eyesore doesnt mean Belfast should do the same. You can acknowledge the past without having it dominating the present
There are cruise ships come in to Belfast nearly every day of the week.  Visit the hole in the ground, go up the cranes, titanic museum, bus tour of the site brings a lot of money into Belfast every year.

Well thats a fair point actually... if they can pay for themselves they are probably worth the monstrosity... would they not get the ships anyway tho?... prob no way of gauging it.
Visit the hedge from game of thrones.  Come and see samson and goliath, wonder at the funny shaped rocks at giants causeway. There isn't that many unique things for people to want to make Belfast a place to stop.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 07:57:20 PM
Jesus there's some miserable cnuts about.

No one is disputing the fact that's it's done, it finished early 2000, it's been on life support ever since.

Anyone that thinks the cranes are an eye sore is a tool, just my opinion.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Franko on August 08, 2019, 08:21:42 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 08, 2019, 04:51:34 PM
I think some here have a poor understanding of the English language, or perhaps think it should be interpreted according to your political view, Brexit style.

The shipyard is iconic for Belfast, any view with the cranes in the background says "Belfast". It was a formidable centre of world class engineering for a century. It is also entirely representative of the sick underbelly of Norn Iron society. Many tried hard to keep it that way, but many others worked there for a job.
Its day is done, but people should not be welcoming the end of such institutions, but hoping for their reform to be normal places while still having world stature.

The cranes are probably iconic (as you've said in your opening sentence).

There was fcuk all iconic about the business.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Franko on August 08, 2019, 08:24:38 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 03:00:05 PM
Quote from: Franko on August 08, 2019, 10:20:26 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 08, 2019, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: Rois on August 06, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
From my limited understanding it sounds like it is purely symbolic. This day has been coming to H&W for a long long time and I think it's history has managed to drag it this far but can take it no further. I've been listening to the old argument that it was the EU's fault on competition laws. But H&W don't have a single order on their books at the minute and not even an order in sight. That's one of the core reasons why no one would bail them out (pardon the pun). Most of these ships are built in the Far East now in South Korea or China well outside the EU.
Another core reason being the horrific pension liabilities.

Buying out of administration makes more sense.

I was thinking that myself especially when it became clear there was a hole in the pension pot.

A new buyer won't take that liability, the Government will have to, but maybe not the full amount and some pensions might have to get trimmed by 10% or whatever.

There'll also be new terms and conditions for the staff unless the new owner offers to honour the TUPE process, but they are in the box seat if a new owner can be found.

I also don't get the "iconic" status of H&W as it was very much jobs for the boys and those boys wouldn't have been too welcoming to someone from my community back in the day.

Agreed.  There was nothing 'iconic' about the yard at all.  A sectarian shithole.  The cranes are a famous landmark and will no doubt survive.

Feel sorry for those who are losing their jobs, it can't be a good time.  Apart from that I'd say good riddance to another symbol of unionist dominance.

And when Shorts closes its doors that will be another nail in the symbol of unionist dominance!

Lets close all the unionist companies up the Shankill and Newtownards road while your at it

;D
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: BarryBreensBandage on August 08, 2019, 08:49:47 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 07:57:20 PM
Jesus there's some miserable cnuts about.

No one is disputing the fact that's it's done, it finished early 2000, it's been on life support ever since.

Anyone that thinks the cranes are an eye sore is a tool, just my opinion.

Was it not used for the assembly of wind turbines in the recent past?
That's what I was told by one of the engineers onsite a while ago and that was why it had trundled on for the last few years.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 08:51:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 07:57:20 PM
Jesus there's some miserable cnuts about.

No one is disputing the fact that's it's done, it finished early 2000, it's been on life support ever since.

Anyone that thinks the cranes are an eye sore is a tool, just my opinion.

Looks like you took something out of shipyard at least.... even tho it is intolerance of others opinions at least its something
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on August 08, 2019, 08:49:47 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 07:57:20 PM
Jesus there's some miserable cnuts about.

No one is disputing the fact that's it's done, it finished early 2000, it's been on life support ever since.

Anyone that thinks the cranes are an eye sore is a tool, just my opinion.

Was it not used for the assembly of wind turbines in the recent past?
That's what I was told by one of the engineers onsite a while ago and that was why it had trundled on for the last few years.

Doing wind turbines is not ship building, there was 50 core workers the rest were contractors
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 10:23:54 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.

There's no accounting for taste, is there? I think the cranes look great, and as far as I know they are listed as landmarks. And rightly so. Have you ever been up close to them? They're massive. Very impressive.

I think someone once decided that the majestic chimney of the Johnson-Allen linen mill in Lurgan was an 'eyesore' at one point, and a magnificent part of the town's industrial heritage was lost as a result. Once you take these things down you can't put them back up. Leave them alone.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 11:06:00 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2019, 10:23:54 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 08, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
What's so iconic about the cranes? I think they are a blight on the Belfast skyline
They are big yellow industrial pieces of equipment, look like SFA and they are only there 50 years.
Would there be the same clamour to save Divis Tower? A ton of people wanted to demolish Bank Buildings after the fire which are historic beautiful and will be functional again, the gantry cranes cant claim any of that.

There's no accounting for taste, is there? I think the cranes look great, and as far as I know they are listed as landmarks. And rightly so. Have you ever been up close to them? They're massive. Very impressive.

I think someone once decided that the majestic chimney of the Johnson-Allen linen mill in Lurgan was an 'eyesore' at one point, and a magnificent part of the town's industrial heritage was lost as a result. Once you take these things down you can't put them back up. Leave them alone.

Your entitled to your opinion eamonn.... perhaps the chimney was demoed on safety grounds?

The Hollywood sign for example is another awful looking landmark. But millions come to see it every year.... doesnt it make it nice tho it's quite stupid looking really.

Been up close to them and seen bigger ones... to me a gantry crane is impressive in the same way as a drill ship..magnificent piece of heavy engineering but is purely functional and was not designed for aesthetics in any way. Would you want one of those sitting in the middle of belfast lough tho just cos a few were built at the shipyard
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 11:31:27 PM
I suppose with landmarks like this in Omagh you're spoilt for choice..


https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attractions-g186484-Activities-c47-Omagh_County_Tyrone_Northern_Ireland.html
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: omaghjoe on August 09, 2019, 12:05:26 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 11:31:27 PM
I suppose with landmarks like this in Omagh you're spoilt for choice..


https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attractions-g186484-Activities-c47-Omagh_County_Tyrone_Northern_Ireland.html

Attractions and landmarks are two separate things the spires overlooking the strule or with the Sperrins in the background would probably be the most well known.

There used to be a tannery where the bus depot in Omagh is, precious few people would even be aware of it.

Scotts Feeds used to have a grain silo demoed a few years back

Desmonds used to have a factory..... demolished now a cinema

The mart gone... now Dunnes

All these things are part of Omaghs heritage and townscape icon in their own ways....but they looked like crap. Cant mind so much a murmur of discontent about them, maybe a bit of sentimentality of times past but no one would be for keeping them.

Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: screenexile on August 09, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 11:31:27 PM
I suppose with landmarks like this in Omagh you're spoilt for choice..


https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attractions-g186484-Activities-c47-Omagh_County_Tyrone_Northern_Ireland.html

Was very tempted to review Healy Park there but I won't!!!
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Owen Brannigan on August 09, 2019, 07:46:56 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2019, 07:57:20 PM
Jesus there's some miserable cnuts about.

Anyone that thinks the cranes are an eye sore is a tool, just my opinion.

100%. But if you come from somewhere with little industrial or built heritage then appreciation of such structures will always be limited. Sad but true.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Christmas Lights on August 09, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
Would these East Belfast engineers be willing to travel to Coalisland, Clonoe, Dungannon, Ardboe for work?  The screening and crushing guys have been screaming for fitters, welders, plasma cutters for the guts of 2 years. 

One of the big issues is the work mentality / ethic of the employees in places like H&W.  Its was the same with the employees in Caterpillar in Monkstown, couldn't get the cnuts to work so caterpillar just shut shop.  Not sure if that's a Belfast / city mentality but they are so protected by their trade unions and have always had a "thats not my job" attitude it sometimes comes as no surprise when the business starts to suffer.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 09, 2019, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on August 09, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
Would these East Belfast engineers be willing to travel to Coalisland, Clonoe, Dungannon, Ardboe for work?  The screening and crushing guys have been screaming for fitters, welders, plasma cutters for the guts of 2 years. 

One of the big issues is the work mentality / ethic of the employees in places like H&W.  Its was the same with the employees in Caterpillar in Monkstown, couldn't get the cnuts to work so caterpillar just shut shop.  Not sure if that's a Belfast / city mentality but they are so protected by their trade unions and have always had a "thats not my job" attitude it sometimes comes as no surprise when the business starts to suffer.

And you've a link to back that up? The CP plant in Belfast Monkstown and Larne closed cause they couldn't get the cnuts to work?
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: playwiththewind1st on August 09, 2019, 07:04:50 PM
Is it perhaps the case that the good burghers of Ulster haven't ever heard of the protestant work ethic? 
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 09, 2019, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on August 09, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
Would these East Belfast engineers be willing to travel to Coalisland, Clonoe, Dungannon, Ardboe for work?  The screening and crushing guys have been screaming for fitters, welders, plasma cutters for the guts of 2 years. 

One of the big issues is the work mentality / ethic of the employees in places like H&W.  Its was the same with the employees in Caterpillar in Monkstown, couldn't get the cnuts to work so caterpillar just shut shop.  Not sure if that's a Belfast / city mentality but they are so protected by their trade unions and have always had a "thats not my job" attitude it sometimes comes as no surprise when the business starts to suffer.
I don't think it's a Belfast thing, rather it's a unionised labour issue. When you have a union holding an employer to ransom then it's easy for the employees to think they call the shots and work as fast or as slow as they want. I used to work in Nortel in Monkstown and we regularly worked unpaid overtime to deliver projects but the shop floor workers wouldn't hear of it. That site is now closed.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Clinker on August 09, 2019, 08:07:19 PM
Quote from: hardstation on August 09, 2019, 07:55:57 PM
People won't work for nothing shocker there, Tony.

If Nortel was reliant on unpaid overtime to keep them afloat, they were on a sticky wicket.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNTk5xsxk4&gl=IE
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 10, 2019, 09:08:45 AM
Employees don't know they're born sometimes. There's full employment now and they've the pick of good jobs, but it's not always like this.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: imtommygunn on August 10, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 09, 2019, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on August 09, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
Would these East Belfast engineers be willing to travel to Coalisland, Clonoe, Dungannon, Ardboe for work?  The screening and crushing guys have been screaming for fitters, welders, plasma cutters for the guts of 2 years. 

One of the big issues is the work mentality / ethic of the employees in places like H&W.  Its was the same with the employees in Caterpillar in Monkstown, couldn't get the cnuts to work so caterpillar just shut shop.  Not sure if that's a Belfast / city mentality but they are so protected by their trade unions and have always had a "thats not my job" attitude it sometimes comes as no surprise when the business starts to suffer.
I don't think it's a Belfast thing, rather it's a unionised labour issue. When you have a union holding an employer to ransom then it's easy for the employees to think they call the shots and work as fast or as slow as they want. I used to work in Nortel in Monkstown and we regularly worked unpaid overtime to deliver projects but the shop floor workers wouldn't hear of it. That site is now closed.

I wouldn't say there would be much, well any, correlation between unpaid overtime from factory workers and nortel going tits up. Nortel was going belly up globally and some factory workers in monks town wouldn't really have had that much to do with it.

Trailers stats on employment these days are very skewed by zero hour contracts. It is only an employees market in a few spaces.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 10, 2019, 09:37:32 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 10, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 09, 2019, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on August 09, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
Would these East Belfast engineers be willing to travel to Coalisland, Clonoe, Dungannon, Ardboe for work?  The screening and crushing guys have been screaming for fitters, welders, plasma cutters for the guts of 2 years. 

One of the big issues is the work mentality / ethic of the employees in places like H&W.  Its was the same with the employees in Caterpillar in Monkstown, couldn't get the cnuts to work so caterpillar just shut shop.  Not sure if that's a Belfast / city mentality but they are so protected by their trade unions and have always had a "thats not my job" attitude it sometimes comes as no surprise when the business starts to suffer.
I don't think it's a Belfast thing, rather it's a unionised labour issue. When you have a union holding an employer to ransom then it's easy for the employees to think they call the shots and work as fast or as slow as they want. I used to work in Nortel in Monkstown and we regularly worked unpaid overtime to deliver projects but the shop floor workers wouldn't hear of it. That site is now closed.

I wouldn't say there would be much, well any, correlation between unpaid overtime from factory workers and nortel going tits up. Nortel was going belly up globally and some factory workers in monks town wouldn't really have had that much to do with it.

Trailers stats on employment these days are very skewed by zero hour contracts. It is only an employees market in a few spaces.
Correct. I was merely highlighting the difference in the mindset between the unionised labour and people who see getting the job done as the target. Each to their own, but getting the job done on time in a service based industry tends to keep clients happy. I see it now in my current company - you have clock watchers and workers and in general clock watchers don't progress very far.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 10, 2019, 11:09:41 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 10, 2019, 09:37:32 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 10, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 09, 2019, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Christmas Lights on August 09, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
Would these East Belfast engineers be willing to travel to Coalisland, Clonoe, Dungannon, Ardboe for work?  The screening and crushing guys have been screaming for fitters, welders, plasma cutters for the guts of 2 years. 

One of the big issues is the work mentality / ethic of the employees in places like H&W.  Its was the same with the employees in Caterpillar in Monkstown, couldn't get the cnuts to work so caterpillar just shut shop.  Not sure if that's a Belfast / city mentality but they are so protected by their trade unions and have always had a "thats not my job" attitude it sometimes comes as no surprise when the business starts to suffer.
I don't think it's a Belfast thing, rather it's a unionised labour issue. When you have a union holding an employer to ransom then it's easy for the employees to think they call the shots and work as fast or as slow as they want. I used to work in Nortel in Monkstown and we regularly worked unpaid overtime to deliver projects but the shop floor workers wouldn't hear of it. That site is now closed.

I wouldn't say there would be much, well any, correlation between unpaid overtime from factory workers and nortel going tits up. Nortel was going belly up globally and some factory workers in monks town wouldn't really have had that much to do with it.

Trailers stats on employment these days are very skewed by zero hour contracts. It is only an employees market in a few spaces.
Correct. I was merely highlighting the difference in the mindset between the unionised labour and people who see getting the job done as the target. Each to their own, but getting the job done on time in a service based industry tends to keep clients happy. I see it now in my current company - you have clock watchers and workers and in general clock watchers don't progress very far.

I agree that zero hours contracts do skew figures slightly but there's a shortage of Accountants, Doctors, Nurses, Dentists, Vets, Welders, electricians, plumbers, joiners, bricklayers, plasterers, labourers, lorry drivers, even my local shop are looking help and that's off the top of my head. All well paying jobs. No excuse for not being in work at this minute in time. Anyone without a job doesn't want one.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: imtommygunn on August 10, 2019, 11:28:25 AM
Where have you got detail that all these professions have shortages? I don't doubt some of them have but not all of them?

Pretty sweeping statement really which I would far from be convinced by.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 10, 2019, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 10, 2019, 11:28:25 AM
Where have you got detail that all these professions have shortages? I don't doubt some of them have but not all of them?

Pretty sweeping statement really which I would far from be convinced by.

They all have shortages. But since you're looking the detail here is a 245 page government report. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/704104/Employer_Skills_Survey_2015_UK_Results-Amended-2018.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/704104/Employer_Skills_Survey_2015_UK_Results-Amended-2018.pdf)
Knock yourself out.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: imtommygunn on August 10, 2019, 04:38:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 10, 2019, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 10, 2019, 11:28:25 AM
Where have you got detail that all these professions have shortages? I don't doubt some of them have but not all of them?

Pretty sweeping statement really which I would far from be convinced by.

They all have shortages. But since you're looking the detail here is a 245 page government report. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/704104/Employer_Skills_Survey_2015_UK_Results-Amended-2018.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/704104/Employer_Skills_Survey_2015_UK_Results-Amended-2018.pdf)
Knock yourself out.

That is UK wide. When people make very sweeping statements I like to see what they are based on. Also that is four, almost five, years ago and it says the density of skilled shortages has decreased in Northern Ireland while increasing elsewhere.

Still at least you have some basis for your sweeping statement ;D
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.

Won't need to with all these jobs that seem to be available
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 10, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.

Won't need to with all these jobs that seem to be available

There's heaps of jobs if you want one. I appreciate not every job suits every person or their circumstances. But if you want a full time job there's no excuse that I can see. If you can't find a job create one, start a business, loads of opportunities at present.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Main Street on August 10, 2019, 08:48:29 PM
Start a bungee jumps enterprise from the iconic cranes, that idea just came to mind out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on August 10, 2019, 08:48:29 PM
Start a bungee jumps enterprise from the iconic cranes, that idea just came to mind out of nowhere.

We'll get you up first, if there is a bungee rope strong enough
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Main Street on August 11, 2019, 01:27:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on August 10, 2019, 08:48:29 PM
Start a bungee jumps enterprise from the iconic cranes, that idea just came to mind out of nowhere.

We'll get you up first, if there is a bungee rope strong enough
Whatever turns you on.
if that beats counting the crumbs left over from the 'crock of shit' defined benefit pension plan.


Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: seafoid on August 11, 2019, 07:06:01 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 10, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.

Won't need to with all these jobs that seem to be available

There's heaps of jobs if you want one. I appreciate not every job suits every person or their circumstances. But if you want a full time job there's no excuse that I can see. If you can't find a job create one, start a business, loads of opportunities at present.
The NI economy has record numbers of business failures
UK as a whole has low unemployment but no growth because most new jobs
don't pay enough. That is what is happening
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 11, 2019, 08:49:59 AM
Quote from: Main Street on August 11, 2019, 01:27:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: Main Street on August 10, 2019, 08:48:29 PM
Start a bungee jumps enterprise from the iconic cranes, that idea just came to mind out of nowhere.

We'll get you up first, if there is a bungee rope strong enough
Whatever turns you on.
if that beats counting the crumbs left over from the 'crock of shit' defined benefit pension plan.

I won't be holding out on the crumbs available from that. I earn enough  since leaving there 20 years, I'll be ok  ;D
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 11, 2019, 09:45:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 11, 2019, 07:06:01 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 10, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.

Won't need to with all these jobs that seem to be available

There's heaps of jobs if you want one. I appreciate not every job suits every person or their circumstances. But if you want a full time job there's no excuse that I can see. If you can't find a job create one, start a business, loads of opportunities at present.
The NI economy has record numbers of business failures
UK as a whole has low unemployment but no growth because most new jobs
don't pay enough. That is what is happening

Don't pay enough? You have to pay the minimum wage? This makes no sense.
Loads of businesses fail. Sometimes you need to fail before you succeed.
There's lots of jobs. Lots of good jobs. No one should be unemployed at this moment in time. Anyone without a job doesn't want one.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: imtommygunn on August 11, 2019, 10:28:42 AM
Again I call bullshit on this statement.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 11, 2019, 12:05:22 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 11, 2019, 10:28:42 AM
Again I call bullshit on this statement.

Cool story bro.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: imtommygunn on August 11, 2019, 03:48:58 PM
Not as cool as your everyone who is unemployed chooses to be story.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: johnnycool on August 12, 2019, 09:38:37 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 11, 2019, 09:45:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 11, 2019, 07:06:01 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 10, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.

Won't need to with all these jobs that seem to be available

There's heaps of jobs if you want one. I appreciate not every job suits every person or their circumstances. But if you want a full time job there's no excuse that I can see. If you can't find a job create one, start a business, loads of opportunities at present.
The NI economy has record numbers of business failures
UK as a whole has low unemployment but no growth because most new jobs
don't pay enough. That is what is happening

Don't pay enough? You have to pay the minimum wage? This makes no sense.
Loads of businesses fail. Sometimes you need to fail before you succeed.
There's lots of jobs. Lots of good jobs. No one should be unemployed at this moment in time. Anyone without a job doesn't want one.

Loads of people are better off on the dole than take minimum wage/zero hour contracts type jobs.

Something wrong there.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 12, 2019, 05:15:19 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

I'm just curious, what kind of jobs has she been looking for? Has she been picky or casting a wide net?
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: trailer on August 12, 2019, 05:17:53 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 12, 2019, 09:38:37 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 11, 2019, 09:45:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 11, 2019, 07:06:01 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 10, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.

Won't need to with all these jobs that seem to be available

There's heaps of jobs if you want one. I appreciate not every job suits every person or their circumstances. But if you want a full time job there's no excuse that I can see. If you can't find a job create one, start a business, loads of opportunities at present.
The NI economy has record numbers of business failures
UK as a whole has low unemployment but no growth because most new jobs
don't pay enough. That is what is happening

Don't pay enough? You have to pay the minimum wage? This makes no sense.
Loads of businesses fail. Sometimes you need to fail before you succeed.
There's lots of jobs. Lots of good jobs. No one should be unemployed at this moment in time. Anyone without a job doesn't want one.

Loads of people are better off on the dole than take minimum wage/zero hour contracts type jobs.

Something wrong there.

The introduction of universal credit is supposed to stop that. But it is extremely cruel in how it has been rolled out to the most vulnerable.
Title: Re: Shipyard
Post by: seafoid on August 12, 2019, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 12, 2019, 05:17:53 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 12, 2019, 09:38:37 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 11, 2019, 09:45:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 11, 2019, 07:06:01 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 10, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 10, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
Daughters been flat out trying to get a part time job these last 3 months! Impossible

You should have trained her to weld.

Won't need to with all these jobs that seem to be available

There's heaps of jobs if you want one. I appreciate not every job suits every person or their circumstances. But if you want a full time job there's no excuse that I can see. If you can't find a job create one, start a business, loads of opportunities at present.
The NI economy has record numbers of business failures
UK as a whole has low unemployment but no growth because most new jobs
don't pay enough. That is what is happening

Don't pay enough? You have to pay the minimum wage? This makes no sense.
Loads of businesses fail. Sometimes you need to fail before you succeed.
There's lots of jobs. Lots of good jobs. No one should be unemployed at this moment in time. Anyone without a job doesn't want one.

Loads of people are better off on the dole than take minimum wage/zero hour contracts type jobs.

Something wrong there.

The introduction of universal credit is supposed to stop that. But it is extremely cruel in how it has been rolled out to the most vulnerable.

The cruelty is the point