Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[smelmoth]

Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this

All well and good LC, but what difference will it make if there are 5 SDLP, 5 Al and 5 SF mps to 3 unionist mps for example.  It'll make no difference in London with 650 odd mps.

Only time will be a hung parliament but parties lose run of themselves when this happens e.g. DUP.

Wales have 40 mps with 3m population but north has 18 mps with 1.8 m of population.  How are they worked out?

if that happens, they won't be going to london 

Don't bet on it.

[seafoid]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/establishment-journalists-have-betrayed-ideals-fourth-estate/

One of the tragedies of this election result is that many senior journalists who always despised Corbyn and the policies he stood for will now attempt to use it as a tool to berate him with, beat back criticism with and vindicate themselves. Together with those centrist and right-wing politicians and commentators, they will say that Corbyn and his supporters are to blame, that they should 'own their defeat', and that they should, furthermore, stop blaming the media and journalists. While it's certainly true that the Labour Party and its activists have some long, hard self-reflecting to do (particularly over the cultural issue of Brexit), that the British media and its senior journalists have nothing to do with the outcome of this election is bollocks.

In many ways, journalists have now become their own worst enemies: their refusal to accept their failures will almost certainly continue to erode what little is left of their already tarnished reputations and public trust levels. Moreover, for all the good they do serve, there is no avoiding the perception amongst much of the public that the media and politicians are 'all the same', because, to a large extent, this is correct.

Will Davies has recently commented recently on the 'Berlusconification' of British politics, where the once separate domains of politics and media have become indistinguishable: Johnson and Michael Gove are both former journalists, George Osborne now heads the Evening Standard, and so on. The failure of journalists to keep these domains separate goes a long way to explaining the current crisis of legitimacy befalling the media, and the result of this election. Journalists and politicians who ignore this are placing us all in deeper jeopardy as the principle of an independent 'Fourth Estate' falls further from sight. Given the scarcity of truth during this general election, one thing can be known for certain: the British media is in desperate need of radical democratic reforms.

[whitey]

Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.

Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

Left wing my arse.

Is Angela Merkel hard left?

Bang on.....thats just a right wing talking point......they need to go even further to the left to win their base back

[whitey]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/establishment-journalists-have-betrayed-ideals-fourth-estate/

One of the tragedies of this election result is that many senior journalists who always despised Corbyn and the policies he stood for will now attempt to use it as a tool to berate him with, beat back criticism with and vindicate themselves. Together with those centrist and right-wing politicians and commentators, they will say that Corbyn and his supporters are to blame, that they should 'own their defeat', and that they should, furthermore, stop blaming the media and journalists. While it's certainly true that the Labour Party and its activists have some long, hard self-reflecting to do (particularly over the cultural issue of Brexit), that the British media and its senior journalists have nothing to do with the outcome of this election is bollocks.

In many ways, journalists have now become their own worst enemies: their refusal to accept their failures will almost certainly continue to erode what little is left of their already tarnished reputations and public trust levels. Moreover, for all the good they do serve, there is no avoiding the perception amongst much of the public that the media and politicians are 'all the same', because, to a large extent, this is correct.

Will Davies has recently commented recently on the 'Berlusconification' of British politics, where the once separate domains of politics and media have become indistinguishable: Johnson and Michael Gove are both former journalists, George Osborne now heads the Evening Standard, and so on. The failure of journalists to keep these domains separate goes a long way to explaining the current crisis of legitimacy befalling the media, and the result of this election. Journalists and politicians who ignore this are placing us all in deeper jeopardy as the principle of an independent 'Fourth Estate' falls further from sight. Given the scarcity of truth during this general election, one thing can be known for certain: the British media is in desperate need of radical democratic reforms.

Completely agree. If the media had treated Corbyn fairly, it would be Labour with the overwhelming majority . Their supporters got duped by the media into voting Tory

[thewobbler]

"Duped".

You should sit down and ponder what you're saying here, which is basically that anyone who doesn't vote like you is incapable of rational thought.

Which, frankly, makes you a bell-end.

[marty34]

Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.

what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

[marty34]

Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this

All well and good LC, but what difference will it make if there are 5 SDLP, 5 Al and 5 SF mps to 3 unionist mps for example.  It'll make no difference in London with 650 odd mps.

Only time will be a hung parliament but parties lose run of themselves when this happens e.g. DUP.

Wales have 40 mps with 3m population but north has 18 mps with 1.8 m of population.  How are they worked out?

if that happens, they won't be going to london 

No , just discussing the 'pacr' situation in future - if there's a carve up between SDLP, SF and Alliance etc., and they win, say 15 seats, I'm asking what difference will it make?

[Armagh18]

"Duped".

You should sit down and ponder what you're saying here, which is basically that anyone who doesn't vote like you is incapable of rational thought.

Which, frankly, makes you a bell-end.

Rational thinking and voting Tory? Two polar opposites.

[seafoid]

What should a centrist position for Labour have looked like ?

[imtommygunn]

Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.

What Brexit position should he have taken in this election?

Labour has 2 constituencies. They have polarised views on the leading issue. Any view of Corbyn, the manifesto, the campaign or next steps needs to address the key issue

Any one. Pick one. Have some conviction.

[thewobbler]

"Duped".

You should sit down and ponder what you're saying here, which is basically that anyone who doesn't vote like you is incapable of rational thought.

Which, frankly, makes you a bell-end.

Rational thinking and voting Tory? Two polar opposites.

It's entirely rational to choose what you perceive to be the lesser evil, when faced with two evils.

[trailer]

Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.

what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

Shinnerbots! Assemble!

[RadioGAAGAA]

Rational thinking and voting Tory? Two polar opposites.

If you believe that spending more money than tax income is a bad thing, then you'd tend to the fiscal policies of the conservatives.

If you believe that a loan invested in infrastructure will pay itself back in improved GDP and tax takes, then labour makes more sense.

Both are equally valid and rational views. In some cases, the former is definitely better, in other cases, the latter.


Unfortunately, the two parties policies differ on so many things beyond this. Which is why representative democracy in a digital age is a load of utter balls to me.

Voters could easily provide much higher fidelity answers on their wishes for the country than voting for bullshit manifestos which are usually lies anyway.

[marty34]

Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.

what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

Shinnerbots! Assemble!

How's things Colum?

[Milltown Row2]

What should a centrist position for Labour have looked like ?

Tony Blair?