Black and Tans Commemoration

Started by Rossfan, January 06, 2020, 06:10:53 PM

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Itchy

Quote from: weareros on January 07, 2020, 05:00:23 PM
As good as any example of the contradictions of the Irish relationship with its past. Tom Crean, today remembered as an Irish hero with even beers named after him, his pub a tourist attraction in Kerry, his brother shot dead for being an RIC man  https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-the-snow-makes-me-think-of-tom-crean-s-brother-cornelius-1.3413028%3fmode=amp

BTW, very good post Evil Genius.

Tom Crean and his brother were two different people.

Rossfan

As someone said above a remembrance ceremony in 2023 for all who died in conflict 1913 to 1923 would be acceptable to most.
But singling that organisation out for a special  commemoration by the State whose existence they violently opposed is not appropriate.
What next.? Commemorate the hangmen who executed Kevin Barru, Paddy Moran etc.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Evil Genius

#62
Quote from: Franko on January 07, 2020, 04:45:39 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 04:22:43 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.
Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.
There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night


If a new Ireland wants to be seen as a welcoming place for unionists, we must commemorate those who actively opposed the formation of the state, through murder, torture and tyranny?
No, that is not the consequence of what I posted. For not every RIC man, never mind Unionist, supported or engaged in, "murder, torture and tyranny".

Quote from: Franko on January 07, 2020, 04:45:39 PM
If that is the case and we are to be consistent in our approach,  in order for the north to be an inclusive place for nationalists, we should have a 'state' commemoration for members of the IRA?
We're talking about the Irish Republic here, which as well as holding this commemoration for the RIC, also holds annual commemorations of eg the Easter Rising.

Whilst simultaneously proscribing the IRA as an illegal organisation.

The real point being that these things are not "black and white", never mind "black and tan". But with the objectivity and detachment that a century brings, reasonable people may come to a more all-round view of events and people.

So who knows, come the centenary of the GFA in 2098, maybe Northern Ireland will find itself holding some sort of commemoration for the brave volunteers (or at least those who sold out at the time  ;))?
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

#63
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2020, 04:56:05 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 07, 2020, 04:22:43 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 06, 2020, 09:26:50 PM
Quote from: weareros on January 06, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.
Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.
There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

Here we go. Now thanks to Leo's idiocy we will have unionists saying that this is now an important issue.
I am not saying it is "an important issue" - it is entirely for the people and government of the Republic to determine these things for themselves. Nor does this poster speak on behalf of "Unionists" or "Unionism".

Rather, as a neighbouring Irishman and the grandson of an RIC man, I have both an interest in, and a connection to, the matter under discussion.

Or am I not to be allowed an opinion, merely because it differs from yours?

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2020, 04:56:05 PM
The same as when Wee Willie the clown want to march is sectarian "Love ulster" (well 2/3rd of Ulster) gang down O Connell street. Ah would you look at that, them intolerent southerners wont allow peaceful little Willie and his band down the street, what would they do to us in a united Ireland.
"Here we go" indeed!

When you hear the term "Prod/Brit/Unionist/Loyalist/Orange etc", do you automatically think of the like of Willie Frazer, as though we are all sort of amorphous group, incapable of thinking for ourselves individually?

For the record, when Frazer stood for election, he invariably received minimal support (eg 656 votes in Newry and Mourne in 2010, as against former IRA member Conor Murphy's 18,657).

So if we Unionists don't take our cue from idiots like Willie Frazer (or Jamie Bryson), why on earth do Republicans get so wound up by them?

Try to see the bigger picture - and not just from your own corner.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

oneflewoverthecuckoonest

the only people who want to establish the "it was all not black and white" are the likes of yourself, a self confessed west brit. there are few british/irish left in the south and if you are so attached to your british heritage why don't your sling your hook and move back to the mainland?. the people of german heritage who found themselves in a newly designed Poland post WW2 soon accepted the reality and today few of german descent would describe themselves as German/Polish, they are now happy Poles and proud of it.

this whole episode is fantastic as it revives Irish history and makes it a hot topic, and unknowingly FG with this own goal, have further lit a fire for a real nationalist(irish blood) party of right wing leaning to emerge sooner rather than later, as is happening throughout the rest of Europe.

this reason why this event has been scheduled is because FG has most support from legacy RIC/ Brit leaning families and being in power, this was a means of doffing the cap to these families. by trying to normalise and celebrate RIC membership, and therefore removing the shame, FG may suit a tiny segment of the community, whilst raising the ire of the majority.....letting sleeping dogs lie, comes to mind.

I called correctly the result of the British General Election(sorry Seafoid!,), with this debacle, you can be 100% certain FF will win most seats in the 2020 Ge, and FG now sitting on 48/49, will fall below 40....take this prediction and earn from it.

Evil Genius

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 07, 2020, 05:44:37 PM
the only people who want to establish the "it was all not black and white" are the likes of yourself, a self confessed west brit. there are few british/irish left in the south and if you are so attached to your british heritage why don't your sling your hook and move back to the mainland?. the people of german heritage who found themselves in a newly designed Poland post WW2 soon accepted the reality and today few of german descent would describe themselves as German/Polish, they are now happy Poles and proud of it.

this whole episode is fantastic as it revives Irish history and makes it a hot topic, and unknowingly FG with this own goal, have further lit a fire for a real nationalist(irish blood) party of right wing leaning to emerge sooner rather than later, as is happening throughout the rest of Europe.
"The Irish Willie Frazer speaks..."

If I took that sort of garbage seriously, or thought that other posters on here did, I might be tempted to get angry.

But intead I just laugh, shake my head and decide it's time for me to make myself a cup of tea. (A British drink  ;))
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Harold Disgracey

The Government has deferred an event that planned to commemorate the place of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police in Irish history.

armaghniac

They've "postponed" the event, and rightly so.
Perhaps they'll talk to the citizens they purport to represent.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Evil Genius

Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2020, 05:17:24 PM
What next.? Commemorate the hangmen who executed Kevin Barru, Paddy Moran etc.
Wow! Has someone suggested that?

They'll have a hard job selling tickets for that one!
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Denn Forever

I hope you don't disappear again EG.
I have more respect for a man
that says what he means and
means what he says...

Rossfan

If  EG is  back on the forum regularly then the Varadkar/Flanagan own goal will have achieved something positive  ;D
As for Cuckoo and his "Irish blood Nationalist right wing" party ...we already have 3 or 4 sets of those eejits who got 1.8% of the vote in recent elections.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Itchy

Quote from: Harold Disgracey on January 07, 2020, 05:58:22 PM
The Government has deferred an event that planned to commemorate the place of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police in Irish history.

Cancelled more like. Nice to see people power working for a change. Now go sort out health and homeless you useless FG tossers

SkillfulBill

#72
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.

Evil Genius

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 06:46:15 PM
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.
Reminds me that my Granda was (I think) the RIC Handball Champion.

Foreign games, eh?  ;)
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Rossfan

Quote from: SkillfulBill on January 07, 2020, 06:46:15 PM
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.
I presume you know the names of the other 5 beside Cusack?
'
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM