Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 01, 2021, 06:02:23 AM
I once saw an underage game where four captains got to lift the trophy. Ridiculous. Pick one captain and stop dicking around.
QuoteMotion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction
Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
QuoteMotion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.Good God
Passed by acclaim
Quote from: Louther on March 01, 2021, 10:29:08 AM
It's the way the times are done in the GAA. Voted change followed by outrage.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 01, 2021, 12:24:37 PMits the wrestling for the frees I miss . game never the same sinceQuote from: Louther on March 01, 2021, 10:29:08 AM
It’s the way the times are done in the GAA. Voted change followed by outrage.
So true ::)
Some people never got over the abolition of point posts and reduction to 17 a side ;D
Quote from: johnnycool on March 10, 2021, 04:11:07 PM
And even less discussion on the GAA "freezing" the loss of earnings part of GAA players insurance.
Self employed lads will need their own insurance now, but I'd recommend it for all
Quote from: delgany on March 11, 2021, 08:06:01 PMQuote from: johnnycool on March 10, 2021, 04:11:07 PM
And even less discussion on the GAA "freezing" the loss of earnings part of GAA players insurance.
Self employed lads will need their own insurance now, but I'd recommend it for all
The injury scheme is rubbish for self employed, even when wages were included. You had to have certified accounts to get wages paid. How many young fellas would have that ?
No physio appointments before an operation, It basically pays for operations. Yet it lost €2 million a year. Too many ripping it
Quote from: Eire90 on March 16, 2021, 07:34:46 AM
All county club championships should be straight knockout.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 01, 2021, 11:42:58 AMQuoteMotion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction
Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
Great stuff - so as well as racist and sectarian bigotry not being tolerated, anti-Irish bigotry by people from Northern Ireland will not be toleratedQuoteMotion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.Good God
Passed by acclaim
Imagine passing this motion for puckouts and sidelines but then bizarrely not for frees
Who the f**k comes up with this nonsense
Quote from: sid waddell on March 01, 2021, 11:42:58 AMQuoteMotion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction
Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
Great stuff - so as well as racist and sectarian bigotry not being tolerated, anti-Irish bigotry by people from Northern Ireland will not be toleratedQuoteMotion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.Good God
Passed by acclaim
Imagine passing this motion for puckouts and sidelines but then bizarrely not for frees
Who the f**k comes up with this nonsense
Quote from: delgany on March 16, 2021, 07:58:40 PMQuote from: sid waddell on March 01, 2021, 11:42:58 AMQuoteMotion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction
Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
Great stuff - so as well as racist and sectarian bigotry not being tolerated, anti-Irish bigotry by people from Northern Ireland will not be toleratedQuoteMotion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.Good God
Passed by acclaim
Imagine passing this motion for puckouts and sidelines but then bizarrely not for frees
Who the f**k comes up with this nonsense
I think , the frees were already in the rules
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 03, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 01:43:22 PMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 03, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.
It will be 8 game Division.
Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals
2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.
The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 03:19:05 PMQuote from: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 01:43:22 PMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 03, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.
It will be 8 game Division.
Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals
2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.
The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.
Somewhere along the line it'll hopefully dawn on you that in such a situation, their championship season consisted of 7 games, which should be plenty enough to gauge whether they're genuine contenders or not.
American football has probably the fairest, most egalitarian way of deciding their champions. They have to have the consistency, depth and resolve to maintain focus during a league campaign. And those that apply themselves more seriously in the league get more favourable opening to the playoffs. Then to win the thing, they have to have the spark, determination, energy, skill and luck needed to see off at least 3 of the best 4 teams in a month. Everything is put to the test over the season, and at the end of it, it's a rare, rare thing to think of the champions as anything other than the best team in the competition.
We are going the same way. The sport will thrive on this.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 04:11:32 PMFar from struggling with it, pointing out its not a flawless format as some journalists are trying to convince us. And I haven't even mentioned the total dead rubbers that this B Proposal will bring at least the dead rubbers in the 2020 league format was used by some as preparation for the championship.
I know you're struggling with this. But if proposal B goes though, then the National League won't be a warm up competition. It'll be the championship. What it was before will never matter again.
——
If you think this is a bad thing.....
What other elite grade sport has a season in which over 65% of their games are a warm up competition?
None.
Reason?
It's a daft and pointless concept to develop top level sport and then treat it like a nursery.
Utterly f**king daft.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 03:19:05 PMGoing the same way of a franchise sport? While GAA HQ are at it should they allow county teams to be bought out by billionaires and those wealthy owners pick up Sam Maguire instead of the captains. The player drafts should bring a great interest..Quote from: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 01:43:22 PMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 03, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.
It will be 8 game Division.
Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals
2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.
The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.
Somewhere along the line it'll hopefully dawn on you that in such a situation, their championship season consisted of 7 games, which should be plenty enough to gauge whether they're genuine contenders or not.
American football has probably the fairest, most egalitarian way of deciding their champions. They have to have the consistency, depth and resolve to maintain focus during a league campaign. And those that apply themselves more seriously in the league get more favourable opening to the playoffs. Then to win the thing, they have to have the spark, determination, energy, skill and luck needed to see off at least 3 of the best 4 teams in a month. Everything is put to the test over the season, and at the end of it, it's a rare, rare thing to think of the champions as anything other than the best team in the competition.
We are going the same way. The sport will thrive on this.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 03, 2021, 04:34:18 PMQuote from: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 03:19:05 PMGoing the same way of a franchise sport? While GAA HQ are at it should they allow county teams to be bought out by billionaires and those wealthy owners pick up Sam Maguire instead of the captains. The player drafts should bring a great interest..Quote from: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 01:43:22 PMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 03, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.
It will be 8 game Division.
Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals
2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.
The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.
Somewhere along the line it'll hopefully dawn on you that in such a situation, their championship season consisted of 7 games, which should be plenty enough to gauge whether they're genuine contenders or not.
American football has probably the fairest, most egalitarian way of deciding their champions. They have to have the consistency, depth and resolve to maintain focus during a league campaign. And those that apply themselves more seriously in the league get more favourable opening to the playoffs. Then to win the thing, they have to have the spark, determination, energy, skill and luck needed to see off at least 3 of the best 4 teams in a month. Everything is put to the test over the season, and at the end of it, it's a rare, rare thing to think of the champions as anything other than the best team in the competition.
We are going the same way. The sport will thrive on this.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 03, 2021, 05:36:50 PM
Is it a yes know vote on
Proposal A
and if that doesn't get 60%
Yes/No on Proposal B.
Is there scope for amendments from the floor?
If neither A or B gets through....
Is the 3rd year of the "Super 8"(sic) the only show in town?
Quote from: Rossfan on October 03, 2021, 05:56:36 PMDon't think so. Yes Tailteann Cup will be up and running next year. So if we have the 2001 to 2017 format in place next year it will be less qualifier games.
Will that decision need a vote?
The Tailteann will still be there for D3 and 4 teams (unless they make a Provincial Final)?
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 06:04:49 PMRule 6.28(iii) T O. would have to be amended to bring back knocknout Qtr Finals?Quote from: Rossfan on October 03, 2021, 05:56:36 PMDon't think so.
Will that decision need a vote?
The Tailteann will still be there for D3 and 4 teams (unless they make a Provincial Final)?
Quote from: RedHand88 on October 03, 2021, 02:04:02 PM
Having Limerick and no Mayo or Monaghan is a bit.... odd.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 03, 2021, 10:04:51 AM
So with this option B, after the national league decides positions, it's an AI championship involving 8 teams? So QF, SF and F. 3 games to win an All Ireland??
Quote from: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 10:09:03 PM
A Division 1 Team would need to win about 3 games at least to get into the top 5 then the 3 knockout games so if you count the league aspect then you need to win 6 games at least to win all ireland tho you can now lose 3 games and win all ireland if this proposal is voted in.I hear the ulster president not happy
Quote from: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 10:09:03 PMThe day you meet a happy Ulster person ...
I hear the ulster president not happy
Quote from: sid waddell on October 03, 2021, 09:24:20 PM
There was a hilarious segment on Off The Ball AM the other morning where Ger Gilroy and co. were imagining a fantastical future under Proposal B, with stadiums packed out every week.
Delusion barely begins to explain it. It was like an infomercial. Mike Levy and Amazing Discoveries probably had more integrity about what they were selling.
Monaghan played Kerry in the Super 8s in Clones in high summer in what was to all intents and purposes an All-Ireland quarter-final, and it barely drew 17k in a stadium which holds 30k.
The promised glorious future won't happen.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 11:57:20 PMIt's barely over half what an Ulster final attracts without fail.Quote from: sid waddell on October 03, 2021, 09:24:20 PM
There was a hilarious segment on Off The Ball AM the other morning where Ger Gilroy and co. were imagining a fantastical future under Proposal B, with stadiums packed out every week.
Delusion barely begins to explain it. It was like an infomercial. Mike Levy and Amazing Discoveries probably had more integrity about what they were selling.
Monaghan played Kerry in the Super 8s in Clones in high summer in what was to all intents and purposes an All-Ireland quarter-final, and it barely drew 17k in a stadium which holds 30k.
The promised glorious future won't happen.
Perspective is everything.
17,000 is pretty much a full house at Ravenhill or RDS.
It's about 5 times a league of Ireland attendance.
If that's what the GAA is capable of dragging up for for a quarter final between geographically disposed teams, I really can't see how it could be described as a fail.
17,000 people. Ireland.
Perspective is everything.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 12:14:22 AMOn the contrary, it's a derisory crowd for a match of that importance.
It's 17,000 people.
Which makes it roughly between 1 in every 350-400 people in Ireland who attended the event.
To extrapolate this to the population of England, it would be an the attendance of circa 160,000.
——
Do not forget that Monaghan's population would fit in a Dublin suburb, and that Kerry fans were looking at a 7-10 hour round trip for a televised match.
——
17,000 isn't a shame.
—-
17,000 is extraordinary.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 12:36:20 AMif you think an all ireland semi final not selling out fecking Clones is acceptable you need your head looked at
Laugh out f**king loud.
By your criteria, if it's anything fewer than 1 in 300 people on the island who cannot take the time, expense and ardour of attending a mid series match, then it's a failure.
1 in 300 people.
Mental.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:13:07 AMmy mistake. Will edit now but point stil stands.
Why are you talking about a semi final?
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:25:06 AMSure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8's need to go.
See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.
And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:25:06 AMIf you're trying to make a case for a league system, you're actually doing a great job of making a case against it.
See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.
And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 09:18:15 AMHad Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:25:06 AMSure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8's need to go.
See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.
And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 09:27:38 AMFair enough. Any system other than straight knock out only favours the big teams- always a chance of catching Dublin/Kerry cold on the day but if they've a second chance you'll rarely catch them twice.Quote from: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 09:18:15 AMHad Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:25:06 AMSure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8's need to go.
See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.
And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.
Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 09:34:18 AMQuote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 09:27:38 AMFair enough. Any system other than straight knock out only favours the big teams- always a chance of catching Dublin/Kerry cold on the day but if they've a second chance you'll rarely catch them twice.Quote from: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 09:18:15 AMHad Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:25:06 AMSure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8's need to go.
See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.
And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.
Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 04, 2021, 09:56:33 AMPeople go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.
The super 8's weren't well attended. It's like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can't afford it. That's what it comes down to.
Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get there. So that's maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That's considerable cost to ordinary working folk
The super 8's were a money racket , and fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet
Quote from: Rossfan on October 04, 2021, 10:51:11 AMIt's ironic that the self proclaimed "true Gaels" are the people who least understand what makes the GAA tick and least understand what needs to be done to maintain its place at the centre of Irish life.
I go to games to support my team County or Club.
I have no interest in smells of chip vans or the 2 games a year big day types.
Anyway Proposals A and B provide for Provincial Finals so Kerry can continue to thrash hurling Counties 9 years out of 10.
The mythical Munster Hurling Final is now simply a local squabble to decide who plays in the AI semi and quarter finals.
The Leinster SFC has been a procession 15 of the last 16 years while Dublin and Kerry have won 9 of the last 10 AIs.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 10:15:34 AMAh would you quit you're giving me goosebumps there talking abiut Ulster final days. (As an Armagh man I can barely remember what it's like to get to one ffs)Quote from: BennyCake on October 04, 2021, 09:56:33 AMPeople go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.
The super 8's weren't well attended. It's like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can't afford it. That's what it comes down to.
Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get there. So that's maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That's considerable cost to ordinary working folk
The super 8's were a money racket , and fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet
People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.
When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.
It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.
You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 11:40:52 AMI do love it when somebody has absolutely nothing of substance to say yet still insists on saying something.
You're not even a member of a club Sid.
Nor have you been to Clones. Or well maybe you have once. But you have not been there among 300 for an Ulster minor league game, or among 2,000 for an Ulster u21 final, or among 5,000 for a national league game, or among 25,000 for an ulster final replay in conditions so poor that the far end of the field cannot be seen.
Your take on Gaelic Games is largely a byproduct of misty eyed nostalgia narratives from the likes of Tom Humphrey. You clearly enjoy that type of writing, but it is not reality.
5-figure crowds will sometimes turn up for McKenna Cup matches. And sometimes it's less than 1,000 people. Its the same competition, played at the same time, in the same appalling conditions, each year. Its attendances are not affected by media, by sponsorship, by team selections. It's all about the mood in the counties competing.
And the same principle applies to every intercounty match, apart from the all Ireland final.
You are not even a member of the association for crying out loud.
So do us all of favour and stop pontificating.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 11:28:53 AMAnd that's what it's about. The promise or the hope of special days. Jim McGuinness wrote very well about this a couple of weeks back.Quote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 10:15:34 AMAh would you quit you're giving me goosebumps there talking abiut Ulster final days. (As an Armagh man I can barely remember what it's like to get to one ffs)Quote from: BennyCake on October 04, 2021, 09:56:33 AMPeople go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.
The super 8's weren't well attended. It's like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can't afford it. That's what it comes down to.
Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get there. So that's maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That's considerable cost to ordinary working folk
The super 8's were a money racket , and fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet
People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.
When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.
It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.
You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 12:02:47 PMI've been to six of them - four of them in Clones (1993, 1994, 1995, 2017) plus a couple of the ones in Croke Park (although I don't really count those as proper Ulster finals) and have been up to Clones around 12 or 13 times to various matches over the years. For one of them, 1994, myself and my father went up without tickets and bought two in the Diamond from lads who had travelled up from West Limerick. Why do you think those lads had travelled all the way up from West Limerick? Because the Ulster final is a unique Irish ritual and occasion that people want to experience. They travelled up for the same reason I've been to Killarney and Thurles and Limerick and Cork for provincial finals I had no personal county involvement in.
Honest question. Have you ever been to an Ulster final?
Simple yes or no will do.
When you clarify that it's a no, read back your last 7-8 posts with an open a mind as you can.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 01:30:22 PM
With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 04, 2021, 02:19:17 PMDistance is still very much a factor in people going to or not going to games.Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 01:30:22 PM
With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.
Mostly smaller venues just mean that less people are going. In the Provincial championships people were mostly within 2 hours of the game and crowds had a lot of people from each side, in the league they could be 5 or 6 hours away and crowds are one sided.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 04, 2021, 05:47:14 PMIf you removed American football's divisional championships from the NFL and played them as stand alone pre-season competitions, do you think they'd have the same worth?
If they are nothing when standing alone are they worth having at all?
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 01:30:22 PM
General piece of advice: more you attempt to portray yourself as a protector of Irish culture, the more confused and erratic you will become.
The (existence of provincial councils and) format of the provincial championships grew out of a need to minimise travelling distances. Then exploded in tandem with train travel (hence, Clones).
A tradition born out of necessity, and festered out of convenience, should not forcibly set the rules of today. If the Association hadn't adapted to circumstances and opportunity throughout its formative and fledgling years, it would never have prospered. Demanding we now maintain competition formats that are are imbalanced and illogical, because that's what we did 100 years ago, is wrong.
This isn't to deny the adrenaline jolt one can feel on provincial finals day. If you've got the time to kill, there is something wonderful about the population of a small provincial town increasing by 2000% for a day.
But you know what? I do believe, hand on heart, that much of that magic would spread throughout the proposed league. Not to every game. Not a lot for some games.
But I have been witness to enough electric evenings in Pairc Esler for national league games, to know that it's not actually Clones that makes the Ulster final a special day. Nor is it the competition or the trophy. It definitely nothing to do with 130 years of history. Instead, It's the full house, and the sense of anticipation for two evenly matched teams giving their absolute all to win a match.
With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:00:02 PM"Championship" in league format isn't championship
It doesn't always sell out.
I'm not going to go as far as magical but I've witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.
But most of all you're so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you're struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won't be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:00:02 PMWhen was the last time the Ulster final didn't sell out in Clones? When was the last time it didn't attract over 90% capacity, ie. as good as a sell out for atmosphere?
It doesn't always sell out.
I'm not going to go as far as magical but I've witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.
But most of all you're so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you're struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won't be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.
Quote from: tiempo on October 05, 2021, 12:03:35 PMGood contribution by Brian McAvoy there. He didn't take any shit.
Ulster sez NO
Top fella Brian, unenviable position to be in tbh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO_Kbl6qAFg
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 05, 2021, 10:28:27 PMBrian McAvoy said something on that podcast in relation to Proposal A which I hadn't heard before.
A lot of opposition to restructuring the Provinces to 8 which would be understandable. But Leinster Hurling has Galway and Antrim. Antrim isn't near Leinster, but had to move as too strong.
They say the Provincial Championship is dead, so why not try and revive with 4 provinces of 8. Longford and Westmeath into Connacht should be explored or Laois into Munster.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:25:06 AM
See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.
And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Quote from: An Watcher on October 06, 2021, 10:45:31 AM
I honestly think that all these systems n things could just be replaced with an open draw. The numbers are close to perfect, 32/33 or whatever. Possibly play the provincial championships before, after or during the all ireland series. Let the dublins, kerrys and tyrones of the world play weakened teams in the provincial if need be. The lesser teams would have their shit at all ireland glory and a shot at the provincial to boot. They might have a better chance of provincial glory with weakened big teams
Quote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AMOf course they would.
As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:09:09 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AMOf course they would.
As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.
And the NFL is a national title.
Quote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:17:56 AMUnder Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.Quote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:09:09 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AMOf course they would.
As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.
And the NFL is a national title.
Nice hyperbole.
A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:52:50 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:17:56 AMUnder Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.Quote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:09:09 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AMOf course they would.
As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.
And the NFL is a national title.
Nice hyperbole.
A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
It is not linked to the championship.
It is therefore meaningless.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 06, 2021, 12:04:05 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:52:50 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:17:56 AMUnder Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.Quote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:09:09 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AMOf course they would.
As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.
And the NFL is a national title.
Nice hyperbole.
A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
It is not linked to the championship.
It is therefore meaningless.
The Leinster, Munster and Connaght championships are meaningless for the vast majority of the counties, so should they be forced to stick with the current structure to preserve the Ulster championship?
Quote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 12:32:12 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 06, 2021, 12:04:05 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:52:50 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:17:56 AMUnder Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.Quote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:09:09 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AMOf course they would.
As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.
And the NFL is a national title.
Nice hyperbole.
A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
It is not linked to the championship.
It is therefore meaningless.
The Leinster, Munster and Connaght championships are meaningless for the vast majority of the counties, so should they be forced to stick with the current structure to preserve the Ulster championship?
Didn't look too meaningless to Tipp 2020 and Roscommon 2019
The GAA created Frankenstein in Dublin reducing the Leinster champ to a shambles, they need to own it, others shouldn't have to make changes to cover that up
Quote from: An Watcher on October 06, 2021, 10:45:31 AMWould be brilliant but never gonna happen.
I honestly think that all these systems n things could just be replaced with an open draw. The numbers are close to perfect, 32/33 or whatever. Possibly play the provincial championships before, after or during the all ireland series. Let the dublins, kerrys and tyrones of the world play weakened teams in the provincial if need be. The lesser teams would have their shit at all ireland glory and a shot at the provincial to boot. They might have a better chance of provincial glory with weakened big teams
Quote from: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 11:44:48 AMAre you for real
you still got provincial club championships linked to all ireland club so you can get your provincial fix that way club provincials probably more competitive than county anyway.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 06, 2021, 01:12:30 PMI've put forward several different proposals in minute detail on various previous threads.
Any chance you'd tell us your solutions Einstein?
Quote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 12:32:12 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 06, 2021, 12:04:05 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:52:50 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:17:56 AMUnder Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.Quote from: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:09:09 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AMOf course they would.
As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.
And the NFL is a national title.
Nice hyperbole.
A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
It is not linked to the championship.
It is therefore meaningless.
The Leinster, Munster and Connaght championships are meaningless for the vast majority of the counties, so should they be forced to stick with the current structure to preserve the Ulster championship?
Didn't look too meaningless to Tipp 2020 and Roscommon 2019
The GAA created Frankenstein in Dublin reducing the Leinster champ to a shambles, they need to own it, others shouldn't have to make changes to cover that up
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 06, 2021, 04:14:59 PM
League championship isn't championship.
Another thing for me is that the winners of Ulster deserve to be further on in the All Ireland than the winners of any other province.
2 options for me would be run the provincials off separately from the all ireland and then do a 32 county straight knockout open draw- could see a middling team get a decent run and get to a semi final with a bit of luck. Could also see a big hitter getting put out early. 16 First round losers into the B All Ireland or whatever it's going to be called, again straight knockout, play as many double headers as possible and play the final before the senior one.
Other option would be keep the qualifier system but structure it that the winners of Leinster, Connacht and Munster have to face 3 teams that came through the qualifiers.
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 06, 2021, 11:43:07 PM
Super 8s to be ditched regardless of the outcome https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/7710667/gaa-championship-structure-congress-super-8s/
A poor enough experiment, dead rubber games at the business end of Championship didn't look good.
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 06, 2021, 11:43:07 PM
Super 8s to be ditched regardless of the outcome https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/7710667/gaa-championship-structure-congress-super-8s/
A poor enough experiment, dead rubber games at the business end of Championship didn't look good.
Quote from: Tres Bien on October 07, 2021, 10:54:35 AM
The pre Super 8 was vastly superior to the Super 8s.
A bit of mild tweaking is what's needed. I think divisional status should count toward your championship status.
If a Div 3/4 team win their province then they go into senior champ. Otherwise they are in the Tailteann.
Provincial winners straight through to QFs.
Everyone out before then are paired off by their league ranking.
Provincial Championship played more or less as it has been in the backdoor system.
Go on the basis on 2020 League and Provincials.
Ulster - Cavan
Munster - Tipp
Leinster - Dublin
Connacht - Mayo
Based on league rankings the following teams take part in All Ireland senior:
1. Kerry
2. Galway
3. Tyrone
4. Donegal
5. Monaghan
6. Meath
7. Roscommon
8. Armagh
9. Kildare
10. Westmeath
11. Laois
12. Clare
Teams ranked 5-12 will face off in R1 based on seedings
Monaghan v Clare
Meath v Laois
Roscommon v Westmeath
Armagh v Kildare
Round 2 will see
Kerry v R1 winner
Galway v R1 winner
Tyrone v R1 winner
Donegal v R1 winner
QF
Cavan v R1 winner
Tipp v R1 winner
Dublin v R1 winner
Mayo v R1 winner
I don't like the idea that say the Div 2 winner is ranked above the bottom placed Div 1 team. As far as I see it that team played Div 1 football that year so deserves credit for playing at a higher level.
Either way if you finish within the top 12 teams in the league system you are guaranteed a senior championship place.
The same system would work for the intermediate championship.
In R2 of the draw which would be open I think teams from the same province should not be allowed to be drawn against each other if possible.
QuoteWe have 80% of our membership in favour of Proposal B, 90% of our GPA representatives and captains support the series.
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 07, 2021, 05:05:32 PM
New proposals explained well enough here https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1
Quote from: BennyCake on October 07, 2021, 06:56:54 PMQuote from: rodney trotter on October 07, 2021, 05:05:32 PM
New proposals explained well enough here https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1
So the provincial championships become the O'Byrne/McKenna Cup. Why would counties like Tyrone/Donegal/Monaghan, teams with All Ireland aspirations take Ulster in any way serious?
Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 09:28:16 PM
if the provincial championships are not that big without being linked to the all ireland does that mean they were not really that big anyway if they were so good should not be able to stand alone like the euro football championships are not linked to the world cup
Quote from: Rossfan on October 07, 2021, 12:33:57 PM
https://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/320597
Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:18:02 PM
if you give the provincial champions 2 points in the league stage then they will probably take it serious then the teams that have realistic chance of winning all ireland would having a 2 point start in the league could be very big that would make winning provincials important.perhaps even give them one point if you think 2 points is too much of head start and would heavily favor Dublin Kerry and mayo too much.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:06:48 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2021, 10:33:08 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:06:48 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.
Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 07, 2021, 10:46:36 PMQuote from: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2021, 10:33:08 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:06:48 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.
Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.
If team below the top 4 or 5 had any sense then they'd contrive to be 3rd in Division 2, then they'd be in Sam and would not get promoted where they risked ending the lower 3 in the Div 1 the following year.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 10:43:02 AMI thought McAvoy came across very well.
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I'd be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don't vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.
But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I'm sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren't now solely a pathway was lost on him. He's seen it all and couldn't see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn't be a big occasion.
As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn't been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn't want to know the answers so not asking the questions.
Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that's always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that's going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn't pull him on that.
He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.
Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they've take to inform and educate themselves.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 11:03:30 AMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 10:43:02 AMI thought McAvoy came across very well.
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I'd be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don't vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.
But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I'm sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren't now solely a pathway was lost on him. He's seen it all and couldn't see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn't be a big occasion.
As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn't been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn't want to know the answers so not asking the questions.
Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that's always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that's going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn't pull him on that.
He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.
Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they've take to inform and educate themselves.
One point he made which I think is not being dealt with is: what would be the pricing structure be for these league as championship games?
The League as it is only gets the crowds it does because prices are lower than for championship.
If you, say, doubled the prices of tickets, what effect does that have on the crowds? Bearing in mind that seven matches in eight weeks will already be very expensive for people to attend, and that there is and never has been a real culture anywhere in Irish sport of attending paid in games week on week.
How attractive can the new pre-season "provincial championships" be? They'll be played in January, February and March. And they themselves will be largely mismatches.
It beggars belief to me that the same people that are saying the provincial championships as they are now are a dead duck are the same people saying they will be attractive as stand alone pre-season competitions played in winter conditions. There's a fundamental contradiction there.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 10:43:02 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I'd be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don't vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.
But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I'm sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren't now solely a pathway was lost on him. He's seen it all and couldn't see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn't be a big occasion.
As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn't been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn't want to know the answers so not asking the questions.
Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that's always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that's going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn't pull him on that.
He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.
Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they've take to inform and educate themselves.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 11:39:43 AMThere are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.
It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.
Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.
You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.
Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 12:18:38 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 11:39:43 AMThere are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.
It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.
Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.
You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.
Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
There are 32 GAA county football teams.
And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.
Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.
Quote from: DuffleKing on October 08, 2021, 12:14:11 PM
The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 12:41:16 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 12:18:38 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 11:39:43 AMThere are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.
It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.
Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.
You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.
Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
There are 32 GAA county football teams.
And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.
Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.
So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?
Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it's an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.
What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball.
It's not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 03:22:44 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 12:41:16 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 12:18:38 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 11:39:43 AMThere are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.
It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.
Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.
You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.
Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
There are 32 GAA county football teams.
And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.
Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.
So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?
Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it's an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.
What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball.
It's not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.
Getting food and drink and having decent toilet facilities at stadiums are issues independent of competition formats.
It depends what you want to learn from other sports. GAA learned from English football by having floodlit matches and more live TV. These were good things for sure. It has also brought in terrible ideas from other sports – see the attacking mark, taken from Aussie Rules.
At the heart of all this debate is the word "event". What is an event?
I think above all, "events" in a sporting sense depend on full stadiums, because full stadiums make atmospheres.
You mention rugby. When rugby went professional, the Heineken Cup became an event. What more than anything made it an event was Munster playing in Thomond Park. But Thomond Park was small then, it only held 7 or 8 thousand people, almost all standing. It was an event because i) the matches were thrilling and genuinely mattered – they had huge jeopardy – only the winner of the four team group was guaranteed to qualify - and ii) ticket demand always outstripped supply because of the small stadium.
Leinster sort of took up the ball and ran with that idea with Friday night games in Donnybrook, which became a quasi-event in themselves because a small, full stadium creates atmosphere.
But when Munster expanded Thomond Park, things didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It now held 25k, and supply suddenly outstripped demand, even for the biggest matches, which actually made them inferior as events to what had been the case when the capacity was 7 or 8k. And there was much less demand for most Celtic League matches. Because the stadium wasn't near full, atmosphere declined. And because people knew that the atmosphere at Celtic League matches wouldn't be great, less people wanted to go, so it became a vicious circle.
With rugby – and with all sporting events, where the stadium is matters. Thomond Park is in a good location. The RDS is in a great location. So is Lansdowne Road. These are great locations for post match socialising. GAA grounds generally don't lend themselves to "events", bar big one off occasions.
Here in Galway the Sportsground is a great location, six or seven minutes walk from Eyre Square, and crucially the ground is small, 6 or 7 thousand capacity, so for Connacht it's a great fit. If they moved to a bigger stadium further out from town I think it would be a disaster for them.
International soccer and rugby tournaments are major "events". They are mythical lost weeks or weekends away, where supporters are in full on party mode. In GAA, the equivalent is All-Ireland finals and maybe some semi-finals. Munster hurling finals and Ulster football finals would be next down the list.
But what makes an event in GAA parlance? I think in this context we have to look more inward rather than outward. What works and what doesn't work. Again it comes down to full stadiums.
Dublin used to hold league matches in Parnell Park. These worked as events because Parnell Park was small and the ground would generally be filled close to capacity. More people can go to league matches in Croke Park but do they work as well as events? Debatable, but I would say no, because the atmosphere is inferior to what it was at Parnell. Dublin County finals on October Bank Holiday Monday nights worked as events, especially if you got two big Northside teams, because you'd fill the ground.
So in the context of the GAA championship, what makes an event? To me its i) full stadiums ii) what's at stake and iii) weather and timing in the year.
In winter, smaller events can work in small stadiums, but the championship is the showpiece, so you have to be thinking bigger. That doesn't mean you can't get smaller events to work in small stadiums in summer – Kildare v Mayo in the Newbridge or Nowhere match was very much an "event". But that was knockout. A lot was at stake. And it was a balmy mid-summer evening.
Munster hurling finals work as events, no matter which venue. They are special.
Ulster football finals work as events. Everybody wants to experience them. They are special.
Munster football finals in Killarney between Cork and Kerry work as events. Half of Cork goes for the day out. It's one day. That's why it's an event.
Dublin matches in the 2000s worked as events. That was predicated on a couple of things. i) Dublin supporters felt starved of success, ii) there was a reasonable expectation of close matches, even in Leinster.
But as big events, these all depended on timing in the year – June, July, August, when there was a much greater chance of fine weather, which makes people want to go.
So if you have a league system as the championship, what will make it an event?
Competition? To me that's heavily diluted. Seven matches absolutely dilutes competition. Dublin and Kerry will likely coast through. It heavily increases predictability. It greatly reduces the chance of real shocks.
After a couple of years of this, people know the score. Dublin and Kerry coast through, a few other counties, generally the usual suspects each year, fight for the remaining knockout places in Division 1. You get the phenomenon of yo-yo teams. In the knockout rounds, the teams from lower divisions get well and truly walloped. People ask, "what's the point"? Dublin and Kerry reach the final most years.
Weather? April and May are colder, there are more competing counter attractions. Harder again to attract spectators. In my view, the move to April and May will quickly come to be seen as a very backward move.
Full stadiums? There aren't going to be many. Going to matches costs money. Newbridge might be full, because its tiny. That's about it. People will pick and choose which matches they can afford to go to, if they are inclined. Croke Park won't be full. Clones won't be full. Pairc Ui Chaoimh won't be full. Pearse Stadium won't be full. Killarney won't be full. Castlebar won't be full. Omagh won't be full. How can you make "events" if everybody knows stadiums are not going to be near full?
And we will have thrown away the great occasions that actually do work as events. For what?
Again, the problem is competitiveness. The 2001-2017 format is a great one. All it requires is better across the board compettiveness. And that problem is fixable. Ireland is made up of 32 counties, most of which have fairly comparable populations. It should enable a competitive championship across the board. You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 08, 2021, 01:01:01 PMWhat sort of crowds would you expect at these "exceedingly attractive double headers™"?
The suggestion by Cathaoirleach Shligigh of a Croke Park/Neutral round is a good one imo.
It would give everyone 3 home, 3 away and 1 Neutral fixture.
Dublin couldn't use Croker for their Neutral game.
Let each Division have a weekend in Croke Park..
D1 could have their first Round Neutral..
Saturday - Dublin v Kerry in De Páirc, Tyrone v Mayowestros in Croker.
Sunday - double header in Croke Park with Armagh, Donegal, Kildare and Monaghan.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 04:01:44 PMYou see you're setting up a straw man there. I never said that 32 counties could be on the same level of competitiveness. Strong counties and weak counties will always exist. But 32 counties can definitely have a much greater degree of competitiveness between each other than exists now. 12 or 15 years ago Longford could play Dublin or Kerry and have a decent hope of putting up a good fight. Can they now?
Sid,
A lot of what you said is correct but we need to modernise the game. Times have changed, people only have to take their phones out of their pockets now to be entertained or watch a premier league game, GAA match or latest Netflix hit or play online games with people the other side of the world that they've never met. You have to draw them out and cater for all.
You mention 2017. Why was 2017 changed to super 8s. Cause the last number of years attendances and games where falling off. It didn't happen over night. It gradually dropped, people found other ways to spend their time and GAA didn't match up.
Competitiveness of games a major part of this. Your last paragraph falls apart in my eyes. Do you really think that 32 counties can be competitive at same level? And shared coaching, sponsorship distribution etc will help that. No harm but that's a pie in the sky idea. Counties won't even share team news never mind coaching expertise and money.
The Senior Intercounty championship is the only competition in the whole of GAA that we obsess with all counties been competitive and competing at the same level. Let teams get success and compete at their own level and grow that way. It works well at club level. Time the Senior county game got to same tune.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 08, 2021, 01:35:41 PM
if provincial councils ever went would the club championship become a 32 team knockout beetween county champions kind of like the old eurpean cup as a novelty that would be cool seeing the tyrone champions having to travel down to kerry or somewhere.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:00:02 PMApart from Dublin and Cork, most counties have reasonably comparable populations - ie. it should be possible for most counties to beat each other on a given day.
Can't say I agree with any of that and why is "modernisation" quoted. Modernise was correct and if you not doing that you going backwards, at best standing still.
The championship will be played in April, May and into June now. Ideal time with the quality of Intercounty pitches and for spectators
Comparable populations? Wrong
Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.
Retain possible shocks - unless it's straight knockout the this isn't happening. Teams can lose twice as it is. Why not have big teams playing each other for league positions and build on shocks that way. Have an early loss where Dublin travel to Kerry and lose knowing they've to go to Mayo in a few weeks and build pressure on them. May or may not happen but there is certainly nothing to put pressure on them in normal year with supe 8s and two games at "home".
And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 08, 2021, 05:08:34 PMSure even pre-season "provincial championships" are round robin.
You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.
Yeah I'd agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan? Again, unlikely.
Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.
The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:00:02 PMHow did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.
Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.
QuoteWhen Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.
And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:17:16 PMLoads of top brass Gaa figures especially Leinster heads wants to get rid of the provincial championships however they know they can't right now so plan B is to play them in February, March in a league format which will eventually kill them off.Quote from: BennyCake on October 08, 2021, 05:08:34 PMSure even pre-season "provincial championships" are round robin.
You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.
Yeah I'd agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan? Again, unlikely.
Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.
The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.
Who wants that?
What is the point of Kerry, who will be feasting on a diet of Division 1 championship football every year, playing Waterford and Limerick and Clare and Tipp in the muck of February, before playing the inevitable "final" against Cork?
Who will go to these games?
Like, with an O'Byrne Cup knockout match, you at least know what you're getting. Largely second string teams facing off against each other in the muck. It doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. It's an excuse to get out of the house on a January Sunday afternoon. Nobody is pretending it's the actual Leinster championship.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:25:57 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:00:02 PMHow did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.
Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.QuoteWhen Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.
And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:32:04 PMBut all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!
Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it's even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can't deny that.
You'll get league/championship now and all the games you'll want. We've often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that's just league. The same guys won't go to Louth championship matches as it's going only one way. Give them competitive games and they'll go. We'd hope to be going that way anyway but it's a long road and provincial titles aren't Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.
Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they've had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It's actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They'd be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
Quote from: yellowcard on October 08, 2021, 02:53:45 PMQuote from: DuffleKing on October 08, 2021, 12:14:11 PM
The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.
Can't agree with that, in fact I'd be surprised if it doesn't go through. It will pass unless the officials do not use their mandate from within the counties themselves. Otherwise expect an awful lot of friction arising up and down the county between players/management and county boards.
The very fact that McAvoy is doing media work at all suggests that he is aware of the fact that change is coming and it could simply be a case of horse trading for a share of the lost income.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:34:25 PMNo. Because with the Divisions 1-4 format the gap is far too much. The point is that back in the 2000s, the gap between 1A/1B and 2A/2B was much more bridgeable. There was a much greater mixing of standard, which meant a greater pooling in the middle - but that made for excellent across the board competitiveness.Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:25:57 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:00:02 PMHow did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.
Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.QuoteWhen Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.
And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.
Does that Wexford point not prove how Plan B is a plus? Get better at you level and progress through the league?
Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:44:29 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:32:04 PMBut all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!
Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it's even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can't deny that.
You'll get league/championship now and all the games you'll want. We've often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that's just league. The same guys won't go to Louth championship matches as it's going only one way. Give them competitive games and they'll go. We'd hope to be going that way anyway but it's a long road and provincial titles aren't Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.
Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they've had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It's actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They'd be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.
Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.
Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.
A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:32:04 PMAre these the scenes from something that is stone dead?
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!
Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it's even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can't deny that.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 08, 2021, 06:09:05 PMThe rise in standards and professionalism among the strong and the relative fall in standards and professionalism and standards among the weak and the mid tier counties has been thoroughly enabled and encouraged by siloing.
The gap is not the result of league structures. Your notions on Gaelic games tend to delve into romance and this is a prime example.
The gap is a result of the semi professionalism of Gaelic Games in the early noughties, that gathered pace in the 2010s.
When a county with a footballing culture and a deep playing pool, combine solid finances and strong leadership to put in place professional management structures, it generates a significantly higher plane of athletic, skilful and tactically astute player. And when that player comes against opponents who haven't been exposed to these levels of management, they are then exposed on the pitch.
Need proof? Limerick have done the same thing in hurling. None of the other hurling powers are playing the same game at them at present, even though they all play in the same competitions week in week out.
——-
Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there's a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven't hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned... but will have better players, simply because they've more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it's very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 06:15:18 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:44:29 PMQuote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:32:04 PMBut all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!
Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it's even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can't deny that.
You'll get league/championship now and all the games you'll want. We've often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that's just league. The same guys won't go to Louth championship matches as it's going only one way. Give them competitive games and they'll go. We'd hope to be going that way anyway but it's a long road and provincial titles aren't Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.
Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they've had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It's actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They'd be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.
Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.
Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.
A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.
I genuinely don't know what you arguing for anymore. You seem fixated on the provincial championships. Should those Connacht teams be playing in Div1 to make them stronger to have an attempt at winning championship.
I think the general feeling is that the provincial championships are dead. Play them as warm up. No one really cares if they beat or not. Players in "weaker" counties opt out and head for the states. They are done.
Do you want plan 8 with 4 newly invented provinces where two robin leagues will make teams more competitive within their new province?
It's the all Ireland series that's been restructured.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 08, 2021, 06:09:05 PM
——-
Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there's a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven't hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned... but will have better players, simply because they've more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it's very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 08, 2021, 09:12:31 PM
Why is Sid Wexford as reason to keep the current system? As someone who's parents live in Wexford they are the perfect example not to keep the current system.
Wexford football was successful not because of the competition structures, but because they lucked out with once in a generation talent in Matty Forde and a few other decent players.
Currently they're in Div 4 and no matter what coaching and money you throw at them the players aren't there and their only chance of progression is Plan B and playing games against teams of similar standard. Getting battered by the dubs (or another Leinster county) will do nothing for Wexford football next summer
Quote from: dublin7 on October 08, 2021, 11:22:22 PMWell I think with Wexford it is partly down to the county board very much refocussing on hurling as the main sport in recent years and effectively forgetting about football. That sort of stuff filters down. Being stuck in Division 4 doesn't help that. In the old League system, every county was at worst one good campaign away from getting promoted to Division 1A or 1B. Whereas Division 4 is a very lonely place to be, the road back is long, and teams at a higher level are much harder to catch up with because they have the benefit of several years higher standard football under their belts. It's a much longer road back than before.
Wexford are a div 4 side. That's not due to funding or coaching, but a lack of talent. Under the current system they have no chance of winning a Leinster title never mind Sam. The only way they'll improve is playing more games against teams of a similar standard in the summer months rather than on bogs in Jan/Feb. The league is a positive for teams like Wexford as they get to play every week against a team of similar standard so they learn what their strengths and weaknesses are.
They could play the likes of the dubs every week for a year and learn nothing. Dublin are so far ahead of them they're not competing with them, they're just playing negative football to keep the scorelines respectful and that helps no one
However under plan B they'll be up against sides of similar standards so they have something to aim for come the championship in the summer rather than a beating in Leinster and then a pointless qualifier.
Why do you think the players from counties like Longford & Clare have come out in support of plan B?
They're the one's making the sacrifices training and if they are calling for Plan B who are we to criticize them?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 08, 2021, 07:08:24 PM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 12:19:51 AMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 08, 2021, 07:08:24 PM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.
the way i see it its up to them to win their games
Quote from: Rossfan on October 09, 2021, 08:57:26 AM
8 of the top 16 will be in that boat.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 09, 2021, 01:37:46 PM
Mr. Uachtarán represents New York.
Proposal B means the annual jolly to New York for Connacht teams will end.
No more Mayo supporters filling Times Square.
I suppose they'll still have the 2047 All-Ireland final to look forward to.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 09, 2021, 07:11:34 AMQuote from: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 12:19:51 AMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 08, 2021, 07:08:24 PM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.
the way i see it its up to them to win their games
Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious. ;D Imagine 6th loses out on scoring difference of one point to 5th, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.
Quote from: dec on October 09, 2021, 06:42:54 PMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 09, 2021, 07:11:34 AMQuote from: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 12:19:51 AMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 08, 2021, 07:08:24 PM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.
the way i see it its up to them to win their games
Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious. ;D Imagine 6th loses out on scoring difference of one point to 5th, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.
Imagine a team loses a championship game by one point, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 09, 2021, 07:14:42 PMSport is inherently unfair.
There is an odd belief among some that it's possible to make sport equitable and fair.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 09, 2021, 08:15:57 PM
Ah I don't. I really don't.
Given the opportunity I'd move swiftly to limit mileage, food and any other expenses a county team can claim for. I'd force counties to maintain a maximum panel of 32, in which players can come and go but only 32 are insured at any given time. I would force county boards to declare how their private sponsorship is utilised, and pay a man to forensically investigate their books. I'd give weaker counties (D3 and D4) the financial backing to employ a full time senior football trainer (not a manager), whose job would be to draft and monitor strength, conditioning, and nutrition for the 32x players in the u20 and senior panels, all year round.
But one thing I wouldn't do is make up fairy stories that the gap between player rich, cash rich, culturally football counties, can be easily bridged by applying archaic and convoluted competition structures that throw the Christians in with the lions, and then blame the lions after the massacre.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 09, 2021, 08:15:57 PM
Ah I don't. I really don't.
Given the opportunity I'd move swiftly to limit mileage, food and any other expenses a county team can claim for. I'd force counties to maintain a maximum panel of 32, in which players can come and go but only 32 are insured at any given time. I would force county boards to declare how their private sponsorship is utilised, and pay a man to forensically investigate their books. I'd give weaker counties (D3 and D4) the financial backing to employ a full time senior football trainer (not a manager), whose job would be to draft and monitor strength, conditioning, and nutrition for the 32x players in the u20 and senior panels, all year round.
But one thing I wouldn't do is make up fairy stories that the gap between player rich, cash rich, culturally football counties, can be easily bridged by applying archaic and convoluted competition structures that throw the Christians in with the lions, and then blame the lions after the massacre.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 09, 2021, 08:15:57 PMLooks like you just debate against fairy stories you have imagined.
But one thing I wouldn't do is make up fairy stories that the gap between player rich, cash rich, culturally football counties, can be easily bridged by applying archaic and convoluted competition structures that throw the Christians in with the lions, and then blame the lions after the massacre.
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 10, 2021, 09:50:43 PM
The Super 8s is being pulled regardless of how the Vote goes.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 13, 2021, 09:25:02 AM
are otb am blowing their load already on proposal b are they overestimating the amount bandwagon casual fans that only care about semi finals and finals they are saying we are going to see people loads of cars and motorcades with flags flying driving into towns every weekend.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 13, 2021, 11:12:54 AM
Proposal B to me has only one advantage.
But paradoxically, none of its advocates seem to have realised this one advantage.
It would remove the need for a split season.
Because you have certainty about fixtures, and thus you can time club windows in the same way that association football currently has an international window.
But pretty much all advocates of Proposal B are also advocates of the split season.
If you have certainty about fixtures, what is the point of then having a split season?
As it is, Proposal B just shoehorns a load of uncompetitive football into April and May, months when people are much less likely to make late decisions to go games than they are in the June to August period.
And Proposal B will live or die by attendances.
Quote from: Louther on October 13, 2021, 12:05:38 PMThe peak summer months are always much more conducive to big attendances than April or May are. I honestly don't know how anybody could argue otherwise.
What you will lose in people not attending because of weather you will also lose in June/July with people on holidays, exams, wedding etc. There never a time that will suit everyone nor can there be. In April and May people are generally very keen to get out and about again.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PMQuote from: Louther on October 13, 2021, 12:05:38 PMThe peak summer months are always much more conducive to big attendances than April or May are. I honestly don't know how anybody could argue otherwise.
What you will lose in people not attending because of weather you will also lose in June/July with people on holidays, exams, wedding etc. There never a time that will suit everyone nor can there be. In April and May people are generally very keen to get out and about again.
In terms of exams, it doesn't get much worse in terms of them affecting inter-county football than April/May.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 13, 2021, 01:52:11 PMNot a hope will Pre season provincial leagues played in February and March will get that type revenue however the objective here is to pull the wool over the eyes of the provincial chiefs.
https://www.facebook.com/607517496033685/posts/4460206047431458/?d=n
All about the money
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 13, 2021, 01:52:11 PM
https://www.facebook.com/607517496033685/posts/4460206047431458/?d=n
All about the money
Quote from: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 01:48:34 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 13, 2021, 04:53:23 PMConnacht GAA chief John Prenty has spoken out.
What deductions can we take from the fact that the President or any other of the Provincial chiefs have said nothing?
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 13, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
If the GAA really wanted to pass one of their motions re the new Championship proposals would they have held the Special Congress the day after the new attendance restrictions at public events were lifted? Could they not have waited another month so that every County Board could have a full attendance in person of all their delegates while at the same time top GAA officials from the Review Body could address each County Board to present their case?
Quote"THE GAA WOULD potentially earn an additional €10m in gate receipts alone if 'Proposal B' is voted into fruition at Special Congress later this month."
...
"And a report by former Meath minor football manager Conor O'Donoghue, a member of the national calendar fixtures task-force who runs a financial services company, has outlined the likelihood that Proposal B and its additional games would potentially be worth €10m to the GAA.
O'Donoghue forecasts that, firstly, almost €8m in additional revenue would be accrued by Central Council through the extra fixtures that would fall under its remit; and that secondly, a January-to-April provincial competition would be worth €2m more to the provinces than existing structures. (The four provincial councils are, however, understood to be majorly opposed to Proposal B due to what they perceive to be the dilution of the provincial championships).
O'Donoghue based his analysis on the two Super 8 seasons pre-Covid."
Quote from: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 01:48:34 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2021, 08:15:51 PMQuote from: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 01:48:34 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....
This more than likely will be the outcome in my opinion. But if Proposal B does go through, what dates will the games be played? Will the provinces have varying dates for their own standalone competitions?
Likewise Proposal A, anybody got the dates for the games under this proposal?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2021, 08:15:51 PMQuote from: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 01:48:34 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....
This more than likely will be the outcome in my opinion. But if Proposal B does go through, what dates will the games be played? Will the provinces have varying dates for their own standalone competitions?
Likewise Proposal A, anybody got the dates for the games under this proposal?
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 13, 2021, 09:10:55 PMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2021, 08:15:51 PMQuote from: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 01:48:34 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....
This more than likely will be the outcome in my opinion. But if Proposal B does go through, what dates will the games be played? Will the provinces have varying dates for their own standalone competitions?
Likewise Proposal A, anybody got the dates for the games under this proposal?
It was explained well enough from Parsons of the GPA https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1
Quote from: Louther on October 13, 2021, 01:35:33 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PMQuote from: Louther on October 13, 2021, 12:05:38 PMThe peak summer months are always much more conducive to big attendances than April or May are. I honestly don't know how anybody could argue otherwise.
What you will lose in people not attending because of weather you will also lose in June/July with people on holidays, exams, wedding etc. There never a time that will suit everyone nor can there be. In April and May people are generally very keen to get out and about again.
In terms of exams, it doesn't get much worse in terms of them affecting inter-county football than April/May.
People attend for the game not due to weather or it been peak summer. Six Nations and European club rugby have never suffered cause of the time of year it's played. Premier league avoids this peak summer and play through the winter, doesn't affect them.
This new structure is primarily aimed at getting competitive games and the best teams playing each other and other teams playing at their own level. That will drive people to the games. Not long ago Cavan played a 3rd string Dublin team in opening round of the league in Cavan, place was full and they literally opened gates to get people in. Was a fine spring day - they happen too! People attended because it was a big game.
In January 2020 over 40,000 went to Dublin V Kerry in Croke Park. January. Imagine that as a league championship game. In 2017 over 50,000 went to the league final between the two teams.
Big games will draw the crowds once promoted and that's for new provincial championship or new league.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 14, 2021, 09:32:10 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 09:38:39 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 14, 2021, 09:32:10 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.
So players/coaches/supporters of counties should travel on a Friday night 100+ miles after work to a game and another 100+ and get home after midnight? To satisfy who?
Quote from: thewobbler on October 14, 2021, 09:49:20 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 09:38:39 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 14, 2021, 09:32:10 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.
So players/coaches/supporters of counties should travel on a Friday night 100+ miles after work to a game and another 100+ and get home after midnight? To satisfy who?
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there'll be 1-2 Friday night games every week. Just a bit of commonsense needs shown. Run through each the fixtures. If the county grounds of those involved are more than 50km apart, rule it out. And if none meet that criteria, then there's no Friday night game that week. Pick a match or two from what's left.
Don't try to tell me the players, supporters and media wouldn't get a tremendous lift from a standalone prime time a lot on national tv. Especially a D4 or D3 county.
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 14, 2021, 09:46:55 PMThe GAA scheduled Dublin v Kildare in the 2013 NFL for a Friday night at Croke Park. Kildare refused to play on the Friday and it was moved to the Sunday, which turned out to be probably the coldest day of the entire year. I didn't go. Liverpool and Spurs on the box looked more attractive as a spectacle and was more attractive as a spectacle.
Friday night would only work if it was local Derby teams playing against each other. Dublin and Kildare or Monaghan and Armagh. Even then there might be compilations with work.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 14, 2021, 10:25:39 PM
MR2 there's club championship games being played midweek all across Ireland at the minute. Often in grounds an hour away from home.
The prep is the same. The travel is the same. The floodlights are the same. And pro rata the stakes are the same.
If it's 1-2 times a year everyone gets on board with it.
Honestly think you're overplaying this one.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 14, 2021, 10:24:01 PMQuote from: rodney trotter on October 14, 2021, 09:46:55 PMThe GAA scheduled Dublin v Kildare in the 2013 NFL for a Friday night at Croke Park. Kildare refused to play on the Friday and it was moved to the Sunday, which turned out to be probably the coldest day of the entire year. I didn't go. Liverpool and Spurs on the box looked more attractive as a spectacle and was more attractive as a spectacle.
Friday night would only work if it was local Derby teams playing against each other. Dublin and Kildare or Monaghan and Armagh. Even then there might be compilations with work.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 11:36:26 AM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1012/1253361-league-based-all-ireland-potentially-worth-10m-to-gaa/
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:33:52 PMQuote from: thewobbler on October 14, 2021, 10:25:39 PM
MR2 there's club championship games being played midweek all across Ireland at the minute. Often in grounds an hour away from home.
The prep is the same. The travel is the same. The floodlights are the same. And pro rata the stakes are the same.
If it's 1-2 times a year everyone gets on board with it.
Honestly think you're overplaying this one.
County and club is different. County league and club league different as is championship also different, they ain't players all from one side of the county, they possibly 60/70 miles away from a meeting point to head another 50/60 miles?
Look it's my view if you think it's viable the crack on
Quote from: sid waddell on October 14, 2021, 10:37:44 PMQuote from: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 11:36:26 AM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1012/1253361-league-based-all-ireland-potentially-worth-10m-to-gaa/
Goodbye Proposal B, and good riddance.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40721610.html
GAA finance department dismiss claim 'Proposal B' is the lucrative option for championship reform
Inflated attendance claims and not accounting for juvenile tickets in the calendar review taskforce model was cited for the counterclaim
Quote from: sid waddell on October 14, 2021, 10:24:01 PMWhat a great GAA man!!! ::)Quote from: rodney trotter on October 14, 2021, 09:46:55 PMThe GAA scheduled Dublin v Kildare in the 2013 NFL for a Friday night at Croke Park. Kildare refused to play on the Friday and it was moved to the Sunday, which turned out to be probably the coldest day of the entire year. I didn't go. Liverpool and Spurs on the box looked more attractive as a spectacle and was more attractive as a spectacle.
Friday night would only work if it was local Derby teams playing against each other. Dublin and Kildare or Monaghan and Armagh. Even then there might be compilations with work.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:20:48 PMThere's not too many lads working on building sites playing county and theres not too many lads that'll be on site to 5 especially on a Friday but I get what you're saying.Quote from: thewobbler on October 14, 2021, 09:49:20 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 09:38:39 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 14, 2021, 09:32:10 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.
So players/coaches/supporters of counties should travel on a Friday night 100+ miles after work to a game and another 100+ and get home after midnight? To satisfy who?
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there'll be 1-2 Friday night games every week. Just a bit of commonsense needs shown. Run through each the fixtures. If the county grounds of those involved are more than 50km apart, rule it out. And if none meet that criteria, then there's no Friday night game that week. Pick a match or two from what's left.
Don't try to tell me the players, supporters and media wouldn't get a tremendous lift from a standalone prime time a lot on national tv. Especially a D4 or D3 county.
So let's get this straight, teams prepare a good hour before the games nowadays, good pre match meal then head off to somewhere 50 + miles, to play under lights possibly depending on time of year, for what? And as supporters they give up their time also?
So I'm working on a building site till five on a Friday then prep for a game at county level.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:52:09 PM
Like said if people think it's a good idea then crack on, I did the games at Croke one Saturday night, Dubs were playing a hurling football doubleheader, great night and was lucky enough to get the tickets from a great aul poster on here, Budweiser, but it was a Saturday.
If I lived in Ballycastle and was part of the county team and we were playing Dublin senior hurling, 7.30 throw in, what time would I need to be heading to a game at? Now remember I'm working till 5
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 15, 2021, 07:22:46 PM
Down Hurling manager not impressed with Brian McAvoys comments on proposal B.
"This is a man who has presided over the fact that there is no Ulster hurling championship for minors, U20s or for seniors," said Sheehan.
"Ulster have abdicated their responsibility for hurling promotion to Leinster, and I would like to go very publicly on record to thank Leinster for giving my own young hurlers at U20 the opportunity to play in the Leinster Championship because their own province doesn't deem them worthy of having one
https://t.co/EoWHuTV63C?amp=1
Quote from: 6th sam on October 15, 2021, 07:32:10 AMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:52:09 PM
Like said if people think it's a good idea then crack on, I did the games at Croke one Saturday night, Dubs were playing a hurling football doubleheader, great night and was lucky enough to get the tickets from a great aul poster on here, Budweiser, but it was a Saturday.
If I lived in Ballycastle and was part of the county team and we were playing Dublin senior hurling, 7.30 throw in, what time would I need to be heading to a game at? Now remember I'm working till 5
Soccer matches (at least semi-pro Tbf) have been played on Friday nights for years. McKenna cup games have been played midweek for years. I have several friends work on building sites , but all finish early in a Friday . Our club have had to travel to far end of the county for 7pm games for years. 8pm start for selected ""local games" is very doable and very attractive. As there would be advanced notice a player could take leave on the Friday afternoon. For such one-off high profile games, most employers would be amenable to this. I imagine the GPA would negotiate appropriate redress to avoid discrimination of players . The promotional benefit of FNF is too good an opportunity to continue missing out on . The GAA had several grounds around the country under-utilised , let's play more county games in a condensed season, and the extra revenue can be ploughed into grassroots . The casement scenario mentioned above is relevant...invest in giving Antrim a scaled down replacement of casement(which was rarely filled) , and plough the rest of the money into grassroots in Ulster ( which the IFA did). A glamorous more lucrative county game should become a cash cow for grassroots development IMHO. This split season , and fairer merit-based Intercounty game, could bring us to a new level: inter-county and club . Bring it on!
Quote from: Eire90 on October 15, 2021, 07:27:23 PM
hurling needs to ditch provincials more than football or have them as pre season when galway and antrim can play in leinster it makes mockery of provincial anyway.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 15, 2021, 07:32:07 PMVery fair point MR. I just think that there is serious promotional value to stand alone games throughout the weekend. Down SFC does this well.Quote from: 6th sam on October 15, 2021, 07:32:10 AMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:52:09 PM
Like said if people think it's a good idea then crack on, I did the games at Croke one Saturday night, Dubs were playing a hurling football doubleheader, great night and was lucky enough to get the tickets from a great aul poster on here, Budweiser, but it was a Saturday.
If I lived in Ballycastle and was part of the county team and we were playing Dublin senior hurling, 7.30 throw in, what time would I need to be heading to a game at? Now remember I'm working till 5
Soccer matches (at least semi-pro Tbf) have been played on Friday nights for years. McKenna cup games have been played midweek for years. I have several friends work on building sites , but all finish early in a Friday . Our club have had to travel to far end of the county for 7pm games for years. 8pm start for selected ""local games" is very doable and very attractive. As there would be advanced notice a player could take leave on the Friday afternoon. For such one-off high profile games, most employers would be amenable to this. I imagine the GPA would negotiate appropriate redress to avoid discrimination of players . The promotional benefit of FNF is too good an opportunity to continue missing out on . The GAA had several grounds around the country under-utilised , let's play more county games in a condensed season, and the extra revenue can be ploughed into grassroots . The casement scenario mentioned above is relevant...invest in giving Antrim a scaled down replacement of casement(which was rarely filled) , and plough the rest of the money into grassroots in Ulster ( which the IFA did). A glamorous more lucrative county game should become a cash cow for grassroots development IMHO. This split season , and fairer merit-based Intercounty game, could bring us to a new level: inter-county and club . Bring it on!
Like I said if players and county managers are happy with it then carry on, I personally as a supporter wouldn't want to finish work at five and head off 60+ miles on a Friday night. Why not have it at 3pm on a Saturday like soccer?
I know from personal experience as a player/manager of club that we'd better performances when not heading 60 miles to a game during the dark nights..
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on October 15, 2021, 10:00:35 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 15, 2021, 07:27:23 PM
hurling needs to ditch provincials more than football or have them as pre season when galway and antrim can play in leinster it makes mockery of provincial anyway.
The point is McAvoy is happy to sit back and watch hurling die and give little or no help.
Quote from: burdizzo on October 15, 2021, 10:37:12 PMQuote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on October 15, 2021, 10:00:35 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 15, 2021, 07:27:23 PM
hurling needs to ditch provincials more than football or have them as pre season when galway and antrim can play in leinster it makes mockery of provincial anyway.
The point is McAvoy is happy to sit back and watch hurling die and give little or no help.
The point was that McAvoy had happily let Ulster Championships die, and then cited their demise as a reason for opposing the football proposal!
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 16, 2021, 12:56:58 PM
To summarise the prospects arising out of next Saturday's special Congress vote re the new Championship proposals, it would appear that Proposal A has no chance of success,that Congress B will get good support but not enough to pass the required 60 per cent mark.
Therefore we will be back to the old Qualifying system which apparently nobody wants. However, in the eyes of those against change of any kind that is much more preferable than to embrace change which they perceive CORRECTLY as a loss of their provincial own power and status. But is that as important as treating all our counties and players equally and with respect?
True, the vast majority of the players(who are the most important stakeholders in this very increasingly sorry debacle),a huge majority of supporters and practically all the media are in support of Proposal B.
The reality of all of this is that, as it has been so accurately pointed out by former Tyrone star and current Antrim manager Enda McGinley, NONE of the foregoing have a vote to decide the outcome.The whole Review body Task force's motions and thus its individual members have been lambasted by one Provincial CEO and condemned by another Provincial CEO.What a dictatorial way to treat so many fine dedicated and fellow GAA volunteers.
What credible organisation would allow two motions for change go forward in the first place and then allow the self same motions no support in the guise of being neutral?If the GAA HIERARCHY REALLY WANTED CHANGE THEY WOULD HAVE directed the Review Group to agree on ONE motion.
If this had been done the hierarchy would have had no excuse not to get fully behind the agreed motion and market it nationwide accordingly. Instead they failed to do that and have failed everyone, especially the players who do all the hard training for nothing and curtail the rest of us from having a fair equitable and enjoyable GAA season.One would have to question the real rationale behind this unfair treatment of so many volunteers and so many players who have given so much for so little respect in return.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 17, 2021, 08:16:59 AMIn the very first year of the qualifiers, each provincial winner got home province advantage with the games to be played in Croke Park, Thurles, Castlebar and Clones - regardless of who was the winner of each province. So Monaghan and Dublin would have had home QF advantage for example, but they did not win their province. So it ended up that Westmeath, Kerry, Roscommon and Tyrone had home province advantage for the QFs.
i dont see why under the 2001-2017 system that the provincial champions did not get a home advantage it also gives a bit more of a reasoning to win the provincial championship a home draw and a match against a qualifier
Quotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PMQuotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PMQuotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 18, 2021, 07:30:14 PMAgain I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PMQuotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
Heard him on Newstalk there now.
He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.
Surely he shouldn't need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
Quote from: Hound on October 18, 2021, 10:13:14 AMQuote from: Eire90 on October 17, 2021, 08:16:59 AMIn the very first year of the qualifiers, each provincial winner got home province advantage with the games to be played in Croke Park, Thurles, Castlebar and Clones - regardless of who was the winner of each province. So Monaghan and Dublin would have had home QF advantage for example, but they did not win their province. So it ended up that Westmeath, Kerry, Roscommon and Tyrone had home province advantage for the QFs.
i dont see why under the 2001-2017 system that the provincial champions did not get a home advantage it also gives a bit more of a reasoning to win the provincial championship a home draw and a match against a qualifier
Of course, the way the draw worked out, all the winners bar Kerry were drawn against counties from the same province, so the home province advantage was completely moot.
There was some uproar from certain quarters (often this doesn't come from the county in question but others who perceive another has been sleighted) that Roscommon won Connacht and didn't get to play in Croke Park. So after that there was a decision that the QFs should generally be played in Croke Park and the initial plan of home province advantage for the provincial winners was cast into the dustbin.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 18, 2021, 09:23:20 PMQuote from: thewobbler on October 18, 2021, 07:30:14 PMAgain I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PMQuotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
Heard him on Newstalk there now.
He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.
Surely he shouldn't need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
If the divisional championships were taken out of the NFL season proper and played off as a 3 or a 6 game round robin in pre-season, would they matter?
Quote from: dublin7 on October 18, 2021, 09:43:21 PMIf you want a league based championship and believe that the NFL know how to run one, wouldn't you be calling for all teams to be classed on an equal footing?Quote from: sid waddell on October 18, 2021, 09:23:20 PMQuote from: thewobbler on October 18, 2021, 07:30:14 PMAgain I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PMQuotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
Heard him on Newstalk there now.
He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.
Surely he shouldn't need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
If the divisional championships were taken out of the NFL season proper and played off as a 3 or a 6 game round robin in pre-season, would they matter?
The NFL actually show how a provincial system could work compared to the current shit show. League based to tournament with the best teams going forward into the knock out stages.
Even in the league games fixtures are based on the previous years performance so the worst performing teams get to play against each other and the best test get the tougher fixtures. Yet another sport showing that matching teams of similar ability against each other is entertaining and people will go to watch.
It's farcical that the secretary of Leinster GAA thinks keeping the current system is a good idea. I wonder how many games he goes to every year?
Clearly it all comes down to how much money he thinks Leinster council will get and how important his roll will be when deciding on what's best for the future
Quote from: sid waddell on October 18, 2021, 09:48:31 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 18, 2021, 09:43:21 PMIf you want a league based championship and believe that the NFL know how to run one, wouldn't you be calling for all teams to be classed on an equal footing?Quote from: sid waddell on October 18, 2021, 09:23:20 PMQuote from: thewobbler on October 18, 2021, 07:30:14 PMAgain I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PMQuotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
Heard him on Newstalk there now.
He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.
Surely he shouldn't need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
If the divisional championships were taken out of the NFL season proper and played off as a 3 or a 6 game round robin in pre-season, would they matter?
The NFL actually show how a provincial system could work compared to the current shit show. League based to tournament with the best teams going forward into the knock out stages.
Even in the league games fixtures are based on the previous years performance so the worst performing teams get to play against each other and the best test get the tougher fixtures. Yet another sport showing that matching teams of similar ability against each other is entertaining and people will go to watch.
It's farcical that the secretary of Leinster GAA thinks keeping the current system is a good idea. I wonder how many games he goes to every year?
Clearly it all comes down to how much money he thinks Leinster council will get and how important his roll will be when deciding on what's best for the future
ie. 4 groups of 8 based on a random open draw?
Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone could end up in the same group, playing for only two qualification spots.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 18, 2021, 07:10:14 PMQuote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PMQuotehttps://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223
Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
That's such a depressing interview. Players should shut up and realize people like him and others on the provincial councils know better than they do. Scary thing is alot of the people on the provincial councils probably agree with him
Quote from: Solo_run on October 19, 2021, 01:59:58 AMYou're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
Quote from: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 01:35:26 PM
Any manager who even considers a plan of "let's get relegated from D1 this year, so we can spend next year playing lower level teams, and then reach peak levels again for a proper tilt at the All Ireland from the knockout stages", well they're clearly nuts and will never achieve the end goals. Ever.
——
People's concerns with some teams being knocked out of a knock out competition, are curious. I'd really hate to see the formulae they might devise for when it is both sensible and fair for Kerry / Roscommon / Monaghan to exit a competition.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 07:43:37 AM
I think you're confused about what a breakthrough is.
"eg; Leitrim in the 90's, Antrim in the late 90's early 00's, Westmeath in the 00's, Carlow's recent run, Tipperary and Cavan's titles last year."
The commonality between these teams is that none of them made an AI final, and none of them kept it going for more than 2 years.
So what is it that they broke through? And what would the league-based system prevent them from doing?
Quote from: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 03:15:29 PM
Kickham, the problem with all of the above is that you would seem to be completely mental.
I mean let's be absolutely clear about something.
There are 32 counties in Ireland.
The bottom 17 counties in terms of population, together have a smaller population than Dublin.
The bottom 10 have less than the population of Antrim.
The biggest 5 counties have a bigger population than the other 27 combined.
Only 9 counties have above average population.
Yet you actually imagine that it's possible by an unequal distribution of finance to smaller counties and a series of rules that would drive members out of the association, and by convoluting the fixture calendar into an unholy mess, that these disparities can be resolved.
And anyone who disagrees with you looks like they're about to be portrayed as elitist.
The GAA is the most unequal of sporting associations in the world, simply because it is segmented on county lines.
Everything else is a symptom, not a cause. To think otherwise is batshit crazy.
Quote from: Hound on October 19, 2021, 12:11:10 PMA heap of losses?Quote from: Solo_run on October 19, 2021, 01:59:58 AMYou're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.
Proposal B offers this.
Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.
Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.
So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.
As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
Quote from: Main Street on October 19, 2021, 10:02:02 PMIs that the best a 6th place team did for all the years you looked? Lost 3 and drew 1 and had 5 teams finish ahead of them. They would have known exactly what was needed over their last 2 or 3 games and failed to do it.Quote from: Hound on October 19, 2021, 12:11:10 PMA heap of losses?Quote from: Solo_run on October 19, 2021, 01:59:58 AMYou're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.
Proposal B offers this.
Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.
Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.
So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.
As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team who plays 4 at home or 4 away.
Quote from: Louther on October 20, 2021, 11:58:11 AM
This narrative about the 6th place team seems to go back to trying to keep everyone in championship for as long as possible and giving teams a chance where they had a chance to earn it but haven't.
Quote from: Hound on October 20, 2021, 07:38:48 AMLost 3 and drew one or won 3 and drew 1, is that a heap of losses or a heap of wins? Earning 6th place in div 1 under prop B's format would mean 6th best county, whatever about the merits of the relegated 2.Quote from: Main Street on October 19, 2021, 10:02:02 PMIs that the best a 6th place team did for all the years you looked? Lost 3 and drew 1 and had 5 teams finish ahead of them. They would have known exactly what was needed over their last 2 or 3 games and failed to do it.Quote from: Hound on October 19, 2021, 12:11:10 PMA heap of losses?Quote from: Solo_run on October 19, 2021, 01:59:58 AMYou're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.
Proposal B offers this.
Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.
Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.
So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.
As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team who plays 4 at home or 4 away.
Allowing more Div1 teams in would make a lot more games meaningless instead of the excitement that would be there with only 5 making it.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2021, 01:26:27 PM
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.
Quote from: clonadmad on October 20, 2021, 02:39:43 PMQuote from: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2021, 01:26:27 PM
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.
A total of 23 votes "confirmed" then out of a total of 183
Quote from: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 03:15:29 PM
Kickham, the problem with all of the above is that you would seem to be completely mental.
I mean let's be absolutely clear about something.
There are 32 counties in Ireland. Not in the GAA world, London, New York, Warrickshire etc are all counties
The bottom 17 counties in terms of population, together have a smaller population than Dublin. Yep, and how do the proposals fix that. The longer Option B lasts the stronger they will get
The bottom 10 have less than the population of Antrim. Is that the GAA population in Antrim. There's a lot of none GAA population in Antrim.
The biggest 5 counties have a bigger population than the other 27 combined. How long has this existed.... from the start of the GAA. Nothing new now
Only 9 counties have above average population.
Yet you actually imagine that it's possible by an unequal distribution of finance to smaller counties and a series of rules that would drive members out of the association, and by convoluting the fixture calendar into an unholy mess, that these disparities can be resolved. Never said anything of the sort. Your losing the run of yourself here
And anyone who disagrees with you looks like they're about to be portrayed as elitist. Maybe they are if the are supporting a system that will ring fence the strongest counties and set up a system to actually prevent weaker counties competing with them
The GAA is the most unequal of sporting associations in the world, simply because it is segmented on county lines. There are other sports who have had the same problem, who actually came up with solutions to ensure level playing fields. Look at MLB, NFL in the states. Creative thinking for the good of the whole game not just the powerful few
Everything else is a symptom, not a cause. To think otherwise is batshit crazy. Getting personal again....Playing the man not the ball
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 20, 2021, 04:31:07 PM
Overseas votes UK, Canada, Australia, Asia etc have 34
votes
Quote from: armaghniac on October 20, 2021, 04:38:04 PMQuote from: Blowitupref on October 20, 2021, 04:31:07 PM
Overseas votes UK, Canada, Australia, Asia etc have 34
votes
These should not be allowed vote or even attend a meeting concerned with the structure of the game in Ireland.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2021, 09:07:55 AMBut the point of the 3/1/1 is to give the small teams a chance of reaching the knockout stages, rather than just the best 8 teams
5 out of 8 is fair enough but the 3/1/1 from the lower Divisions is what would irk team 6.
Quote from: Kickham csc on October 20, 2021, 04:07:34 PMHave you read Proposal B?
So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.
Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?
Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.
Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.
I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.
It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.
FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.
Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did
Quote from: Hound on October 20, 2021, 05:31:19 PMThe Connacht competition under the current proposal B is the FBD. They won that competition in 2013,2014 and it didn't do a lot to improve them nor has the NFL 7 games with similar level opponents.Quote from: Kickham csc on October 20, 2021, 04:07:34 PMHave you read Proposal B?
So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.
Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?
Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.
Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.
I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.
It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.
FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.
Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did
You seem to completely misunderstand it.
For example, Leitrim who have no chance of winning Connacht, now have a realistic chance of getting to the All Ireland knockout stages by winning Div 4, or even Div 3 with a bit of progression. They still get to play Connacht, albeit they'll still get beaten out the gate, but after that they'll get 7 competitive summer games against similar level opponents and at least the opportunity for progression. There's no system that makes Leitrim All Ireland challengers, but at least Proposal B gives their players a reason to play. Hence the reason Leitrim management and players are strongly in favour.
Quote from: Hound on October 20, 2021, 05:31:19 PMQuote from: Kickham csc on October 20, 2021, 04:07:34 PMHave you read Proposal B?
So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.
Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?
Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.
Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.
I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.
It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.
FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.
Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did
You seem to completely misunderstand it.
For example, Leitrim who have no chance of winning Connacht, now have a realistic chance of getting to the All Ireland knockout stages by winning Div 4, or even Div 3 with a bit of progression. They still get to play Connacht, albeit they'll still get beaten out the gate, but after that they'll get 7 competitive summer games against similar level opponents and at least the opportunity for progression. There's no system that makes Leitrim All Ireland challengers, but at least Proposal B gives their players a reason to play. Hence the reason Leitrim management and players are strongly in favour.
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 20, 2021, 03:41:11 PM
All these counties confirmed in favour of Option B
Meath
Tipperary
Kildare
Cork
Longford
Down
Clare
Louth
Westmeath
Offaly
Warwickshire supposedly leaning towards being in favour
Delegates decide on the day (and from looking at what they have said there's a reasonable chance all of these 4 might vote in favour of Option B)
Wexford - the following is from the Wexford GAA websiter "The Senior Football Team preferred option for 2022 is Proposal B. There was clear support from Club delegates for the need for change to the status quo. It was agreed that Wexford GAA's delegates to Special Congress should consider the debate on Saturday and any proposed amendments and vote in the interest of change and Wexford GAA."
Laois
Waterford
Kerry
Individuals who have come out in favour of Option B
President Larry McCarthy and director general Tom Ryan (although he doesn't have a vote)
Ex-President Sean Kelly in favour
Ex-President John Horan called for a two year trial of Option B
The only people who have come out against it are the 4 Provincial Secretaries.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2021, 07:21:58 PM
From Armaghs point of view staying up in Division 1 was seen as progress. Under proposal B teams in Division 2, 3,4 will have a better chance to be one of the 10 teams in the AI series. Such progress will be gone to waste.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 20, 2021, 08:25:08 PM
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.
Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
Quote from: dublin7 on October 20, 2021, 08:25:08 PMEight of the ten best teams are probably in Division 1. Blame themselves while ignoring the fact they will be playing in a far tougher divsion ah now..
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.
Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
Quote from: Eire90 on October 20, 2021, 08:40:18 PMQuote from: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2021, 08:33:54 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 20, 2021, 08:25:08 PMEight of the ten best teams are probably in Division 1. Blame themselves while ignoring the fact they will be playing in a far tougher divsion ah now..
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.
Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
a division 4 team needs to win the league so whats tougher for a division 4 team to win their league or a division 1 team to come in top 5
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2021, 08:33:54 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 20, 2021, 08:25:08 PMEight of the ten best teams are probably in Division 1. Blame themselves while ignoring the fact they will be playing in a far tougher divsion ah now..
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.
Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
Quote from: thewobbler on October 20, 2021, 10:01:43 PM
It's just a wee touch short sighted and paranoid from Armagh. Their best chance of winning an AI in the next 5 years is so much about them being in the qualifiers.... but teams in it around their level like Galway, Roscommon, Mayo, Cork... not being there to take them out.
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 20, 2021, 07:39:52 PMWhere was that confirmed?Quote from: twohands!!! on October 20, 2021, 03:41:11 PM
All these counties confirmed in favour of Option B
Meath
Tipperary
Kildare
Cork
Longford
Down
Clare
Louth
Westmeath
Offaly
Warwickshire supposedly leaning towards being in favour
Delegates decide on the day (and from looking at what they have said there's a reasonable chance all of these 4 might vote in favour of Option B)
Wexford - the following is from the Wexford GAA websiter "The Senior Football Team preferred option for 2022 is Proposal B. There was clear support from Club delegates for the need for change to the status quo. It was agreed that Wexford GAA's delegates to Special Congress should consider the debate on Saturday and any proposed amendments and vote in the interest of change and Wexford GAA."
Laois
Waterford
Kerry
Individuals who have come out in favour of Option B
President Larry McCarthy and director general Tom Ryan (although he doesn't have a vote)
Ex-President Sean Kelly in favour
Ex-President John Horan called for a two year trial of Option B
The only people who have come out against it are the 4 Provincial Secretaries.
Roscommon and Sligo confirmed in favour of Option B
Still no county have come out in favour of Option A or the status quo.
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on October 20, 2021, 09:54:24 PM
Armagh voted against both proposals.
Quote from: An Watcher on October 21, 2021, 07:01:57 AM
Has anyone come out in favour of option A at thus stage
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 21, 2021, 09:12:54 AMQuote from: Harold Disgracey on October 20, 2021, 09:54:24 PM
Armagh voted against both proposals.
As have Fermanagh according to their twitter last night.Quote from: An Watcher on October 21, 2021, 07:01:57 AM
Has anyone come out in favour of option A at thus stage
Apparantly not, so it's dead in the water it seems.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:37:04 AM
Genuinely not being arrogant. You and I might understand it, but there are plenty voting on this that will not understand it and it won't matter to them one iota - some in Ireland and some overseas.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
You're right APM.
Let's devise a competition format instead whereby any team that says "we want in" immediately qualifies, regardless of form, regardless of their potential. Because you know, it's really really important to play knockout football, especially when you've no chance of winning. Then let's make sure that when any team is beaten, they get back in again. Because you know, every team has off days.
That'll be great craic that will.
Honest to f**k. The mind boggles that the people who object to option B, are doing so to protect a provincial competition format that has, for 20 years, produced a most unsatisfactory outcome.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Quote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.
To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces.
With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship. Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:47:42 AM
So let's make sure that everyone who has made a decent account of themselves the previous year, gets a free pass into the latter stages of the competition this year?
Is the purpose of your ideal completion to reward mediocrity? Or is it a mad hope that if you add enough mediocre teams to a competition, then one will magically see its standards rise?
Quote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 11:56:59 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.
To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces.
With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship. Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.
every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:01:44 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 11:56:59 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.
To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces.
With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship. Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.
every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland
Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:01:44 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 11:56:59 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.
To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces.
With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship. Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.
every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland
Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:01:44 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 11:56:59 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.
To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces.
With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship. Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.
every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland
Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.
As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:50:50 PMSomeone explain to me why a team that finished outside the top half of the league during competition stage 1, deserves a place in competition stage 2.
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:50:50 PM
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:40:41 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:01:44 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 11:56:59 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.
To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces.
With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship. Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.
every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland
Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.
As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?
Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary. So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not. However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF. Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition. Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals. A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2.
Edit: If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1. Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route. Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 01:23:53 PM
Wobbler, you have been on this board a long time and I have a lot of time for you, but you are avoiding the question.Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:50:50 PM
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.
In general:
If the problem that you are trying to solve is the easy route to the business end of the Championship for the top teams in Munster and Leinster, I can see how it does that.
If you are trying to close they yawning gap between the top 3 or 4 and the rest, then I'm afraid this will only make the gap wider.
If you are trying to put a stop to Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone doling out hammerings to Wicklows, Waterfords and Antrims, then it will achieve that if you exclude the meaningless pre-season provincial tournaments and anyway, the the strong teams will probably field a second string in these competitions. However, Option B builds in the guarantee of one sided games at the business end of the championship. Take 2019, you would have had Fermanagh and Westmeath slugging it out in a preliminary round to qualify for an AIQF against Dublin potentially.
If you are trying to do away with the provincial championships, well done. This achieves just that. It won't be missed most probably anywhere but Ulster, but then again, most of the delegates voting on this aren't going to prioritise Ulster.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 01:53:01 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:40:41 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:01:44 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 11:56:59 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid. Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me.
1. The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition. They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.
2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't. If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series.
3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests. If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?
I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it.
I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not. Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell. Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1. This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.
Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.
This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably.
I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
- Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
- Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
- All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season
Passionate post though don't agree with much of it
Why reward provincial runners up?
I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2
Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams
Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.
To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces.
With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship. Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.
every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland
Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.
As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?
Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary. So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not. However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF. Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition. Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals. A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2.
Edit: If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1. Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route. Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.
Teams in div 1 have 7 games to finish in the top 5. If they can't do that out of an 8 team league then they don't deserve to go through. You seem to think everyone should compete in the knock out stages. Do you agree with teams being relegated or is that unfair as well? You have to have a cut off point somewhere. If you allowed the top 6 teams to qualify in you'd have people complaining what about the 7th placed side. There is no format that will please everyone, but this is a step in the right direction and a move forward from the current farce.
One of the object of these proposals is to give more games to more teams and to bring some fairness to the championship. While you're obsessed about div 1 teams there are 24 other sides in 3 other divisions, many of whom who've have been screwed over for decades now by the out of date provincial system. These teams deserve a break far more than the elite teams and if they get more out of the new system then that's a good thing
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2021, 02:08:39 PM
How many Leinster teams made AI Semis after the Qualifiers came in?
No matter how much Finance Dublin got it wouldn't have stopped other Leinster teams progressing to the closing stages IF THEY WERE GOOD ENOUGH!!
Quote from: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 12:59:05 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:50:50 PMSomeone explain to me why a team that finished outside the top half of the league during competition stage 1, deserves a place in competition stage 2.
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.
——
Get your head around the concept that the league is part of the championship.
It's much easier to accept how things could unfold, when you accept that performance is measured fron day 1 of the competition.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 21, 2021, 06:10:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 21, 2021, 10:50:36 AMI'd agree. The difference between the teams in finishing positions 5, 6 and 7 would often be trivial amounts scoring difference; and smashing a team to death at least once a season becomes paramount.
It's a bit illogical that teams 6 to 8 and 11 to 16 can't play in the AI but teams 17 and 25 can.
If the D3 and 4 winners must take part I would suggest top 6 D1, top 4 D2 plus D3 and D4 winners.
But I'd also suggest: all 8 in D1, top 6 in D2, top 1 in D3 and top 1 in D4.
This way:
- the best 8 teams from the previous season (ie D1 at the start of the year) all qualify for the playoffs, ensuring higher standards.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:43:57 AMChange is a meaningless buzzword.
When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It's that simple.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:43:57 AM
APM.
Here's the rub.
Option B. If nothing else, allows the Association's blue riband competition to break free from the shackles of an unequal provincially-led driven format that was designed to suit proximity in a bygone era.
Once that clean break happens, then the GAA will have an opportunity to look at models and formats.
But while it remains, we won't. We are just stuck. To a bygone concept.
When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It's that simple.
Quote from: naka on October 21, 2021, 02:51:50 PM
so if b is accepted after the league ends
6,7,8 in division 1
4,5,6,7,8 in division 2 have no further games whilst everyone sles is in a play-off .
seems a little unfair
Quote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PMhow about
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
Quote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
He's going in the right direction, but...
The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2. But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out. Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth. Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation. In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points. The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points.
My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
Quote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 04:13:23 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
He's going in the right direction, but...
The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2. But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out. Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth. Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation. In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points. The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points.
My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway
Relegation = demotion to Grade 2
The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam
If you win the Sam, you're still in D2
Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke
3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke
4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next
or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well
What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?
Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored
Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts
Quote from: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 03:09:51 PMI haven't confused anything.
Sid you're (somewhat deliberately) confusing my preferred approach if given a blank canvas, and what I would strongly believe is the best of the only 3 approaches that are currently on the table.
Change isn't always a good thing. But the choice we are facing is one of change or one of stagnation. The provincial championship concept is stagnant. Voting to remove them from the AI championship opens up potential for refinement. Retaining them closes the door.
Benny, this has no parallel with the complex, life or death decisions that brings the worst out of people on social media. It's not even slightly complicated. If we wish to wed our premier competition and to an archaic and convoluted structure, it is a choice to rail against progress.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on October 21, 2021, 04:47:43 PM
One of the best things about championship is the straight knockout. Proposal B means only 10 teams get to enjoy this. This is not enough. Some teams will get a go in the tier two comp, but the remaining teams will not. All teams should have a knockout chance either for Sam Maguire or the tier two comp. League format will benefit the Counties with a big panel with strength in depth. Mid tier counties who could cause an upset won't get the chance in a one off. Sorry it is a pure effort of an improvement
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PMI don't see how he's going in the right direction. Six teams qualifying from an eight team division makes for a largely pointless league stage, even more pointless than it would be under the existing Proposal B.Quote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
He's going in the right direction, but...
The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2. But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out. Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth. Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation. In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points. The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points.
My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 21, 2021, 05:15:55 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PMI don't see how he's going in the right direction. Six teams qualifying from an eight team division makes for a largely pointless league stage, even more pointless than it would be under the existing Proposal B.Quote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
He's going in the right direction, but...
The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2. But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out. Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth. Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation. In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points. The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points.
My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
If you were advocating a league as championship, the best way to do it would be the old Division 1A/1B/2A/2B format.
The top 3 from each Division would qualify automatically for the All-Ireland quarter-finals.
4th in 1A would play off against 4th in 1B for a place in the quarter-finals.
The winner of 2A would play the winner of 2B for a place in the All-Ireland Quarter-Finals (both would be promoted but only one would qualify for the quarter-finals). This would double as your Tailteann Cup final and it would be highly meaningful as it would be a knockout championship game in the race for Sam Maguire.
The remaining two promotion spots would be decided by an English Championship style play-off competition.
The gap between the two Division 1s and the two Division 2s would be more bridgeable.
The provincial championships played pre-season would have an All-Ireland element tagged on with the final on Paddy's Day.
And it would mean you could abolish the split season, introduce defined club windows in May and June, and return the All-Ireland to its rightful place in September.
I could see a decent argument for that.
But not for Proposal B as is, or for any Divisions 1-4 format.
Quote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 04:13:23 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
He's going in the right direction, but...
The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2. But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out. Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth. Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation. In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points. The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points.
My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway
Relegation = demotion to Grade 2
The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam
If you win the Sam, you're still in D2
Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke
3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke
4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next
or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well
What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?
Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored
Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 21, 2021, 05:32:56 PM
@BMacAnalyst on Twitter
Thread: GAA Championship Proposals
The past 10 years show a massive disparity in the number of Championship games played by each county.
This graphic shows the number of games various teams had over the last 10 years.
https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805538472828937/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805538472828937/photo/1)
15/32 teams have played >50% less games than the Top teams; Mayo & Dublin.
From the graphic we could argue 3 tiers have existed since 2011:
1. Mayo-Kildare
2. Monaghan-Longford
3. Down-London
Proposal B with a league based championship could help fix the imbalances in games played.
This graphic shows a forecast of championship games each county could play in the next 10 years based on current standings.
https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805542818025478/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805542818025478/photo/1)
Note: Not a statistical tested model.
The difference in number games played between the Top team (Kerry) and Bottom team (Cork) is approx* 21%.
https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805549122076680?s=20 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805549122076680?s=20)
It was 69% from 2011-2022.
The worst effected team; Cork could still play 10 more Championship games by 2031 than in the past 10 years.
The current middle tier group: Arm, Mon, Kil, Cork, Gal, Ros, Clare, Meath will be greatest impacted.
However they could play approx* 35-50% more championship games than the past 10 years.
Tailteann Cup could allow the lower ranked teams to play approx 50-75% more championship games than the previous 10 years.
The Top teams could play approx 30% more games.
| London 66 Waterford 60 Carlow 59 Limerick 57 Wexford 57 Wicklow 57 Antrim 56 Louth 56 Sligo 55 Westmeath 55 Fermanagh 53 Leitirm 53 Derry 52 Down 52 Offaly 51 Tipperay 51 Clare 49 Longford 47 Armagh 43 Kerry 43 Cavan 41 Galway 41 Meath 40 Roscommon 38 Monaghan 35 Cork 34 Laois 34 Donegal 28 Kildare 28 Dublin 25 Mayo 25 Tyrone 25 |
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2021, 12:07:57 PM
We keep hearing that the Provincial Championships will die if they're not linked as Qualifiers to the AI series .
Doesn't say much for them if they can't stand on their own 2 feet!
The National League had stood on its own feet for over 90 years and indeed in recent years has become the best competition with more relevance to most Counties than Provincials or the AI.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 05:55:02 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 04:13:23 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
He's going in the right direction, but...
The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2. But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out. Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth. Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation. In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points. The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points.
My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway
Relegation = demotion to Grade 2
The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam
If you win the Sam, you're still in D2
Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke
3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke
4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next
or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well
What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?
Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored
Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts
While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.
No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.
Quote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 06:08:29 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 05:55:02 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 04:13:23 PMQuote from: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PMQuote from: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM
Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10. #GAA
He's going in the right direction, but...
The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2. But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out. Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth. Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation. In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points. The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points.
My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway
Relegation = demotion to Grade 2
The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam
If you win the Sam, you're still in D2
Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke
3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke
4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next
or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well
What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?
Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored
Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts
While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.
No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.
You are saying let's not make perfect the enemy of good. It's not as if Option B is good.
No point going from one broken system to a worse system on the basis that change is necessary, anything is better than what we have. I do not know how on earth these proposals were arrived at, but it will not fix the problems we have and to put this scutter to congress only wastes an opportunity.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 21, 2021, 07:20:36 PMAnd Derry also. Derry chairman Stephen Barker who was on the fixture task force that put these proposals together said while he's not opposed to change there is too big of decision to make over soundbites and Derry won't be voting in favour of flawed B proposal.
Mayo not supporting proposal B.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 21, 2021, 07:20:36 PM
Mayo not supporting proposal B.
Quote from: burdizzo on October 21, 2021, 11:30:54 PMVoting for neither proposal in its current state. If the vote is pushed back to the February Congress and flaws ironed out they'll vote for proposal B
Galway, no?
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2021, 01:38:12 PMRead my posts Farr
The wise old elders decision makers
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40725921.html
Quote from: From the Bunker on October 21, 2021, 11:26:25 PMMayo rightly don't give a shite about the league, just doing enough with the aim of peaking for championship. As it should be.Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 21, 2021, 07:20:36 PM
Mayo not supporting proposal B.
Although Mayo had years and years of consecutive seasons in Division One, they were the escape artists year on year! Just doing it a Plethora of times. Also Mayo have a terrible record in the League at home.
That said this would not be the league as we knew it!
Quote from: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 10:17:26 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.
Has that ever actually been true?
Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 10:39:11 AMQuote from: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 10:17:26 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.
Has that ever actually been true?
Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.
This is exactly the problem with the GAA as exemplified by a good number of posters on here. Will support any change no matter how batshit crazy it is just to be seen as progressive.
The biggest disease in Gaelic football is the constant change and clamour for more change, never a single consideration that there might possibly be a downside to the new rules.
No other sport indulges in such self flagellation.
Quote from: lenny on October 22, 2021, 11:16:42 AMQuote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 10:39:11 AMQuote from: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 10:17:26 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.
Has that ever actually been true?
Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.
This is exactly the problem with the GAA as exemplified by a good number of posters on here. Will support any change no matter how batshit crazy it is just to be seen as progressive.
The biggest disease in Gaelic football is the constant change and clamour for more change, never a single consideration that there might possibly be a downside to the new rules.
No other sport indulges in such self flagellation.
Most sports like Aussie rules, soccer and rugby have way more self evaluation and rule changes than Gaelic football. Change and evolution can be good if managed well. The county game hasn't worked well for many counties over the last 20 or 30 years if ever. Many players from those counties have no prospect of success or even challenging. The measures proposed give them some hope of development and the prospect of getting success.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 11:31:24 AMQuote from: lenny on October 22, 2021, 11:16:42 AMQuote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 10:39:11 AMQuote from: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 10:17:26 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.
Has that ever actually been true?
Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.
This is exactly the problem with the GAA as exemplified by a good number of posters on here. Will support any change no matter how batshit crazy it is just to be seen as progressive.
The biggest disease in Gaelic football is the constant change and clamour for more change, never a single consideration that there might possibly be a downside to the new rules.
No other sport indulges in such self flagellation.
Most sports like Aussie rules, soccer and rugby have way more self evaluation and rule changes than Gaelic football. Change and evolution can be good if managed well. The county game hasn't worked well for many counties over the last 20 or 30 years if ever. Many players from those counties have no prospect of success or even challenging. The measures proposed give them some hope of development and the prospect of getting success.
Do you seriously think these proposals are designed to help weaker counties develop, because if you do I can only feel sorry for your state of delusion.
The last 20 years have not worked for many counties as there has been a clear direction of travel towards rewarding the elite counties at the expense of the weak. These proposals are another step on that road IMO.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.
The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 12:36:56 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.
The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.
Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.
However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 12:36:56 PMThis is exactly the problem with the thinking of the GAA and GAA media.Quote from: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.
The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.
Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.
However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.
Quote from: yellowcard on October 22, 2021, 01:13:01 PMAt this stage I'd be very surprised if it isn't passed comfortably. I don't see where the votes against are coming from.
It does still look like it could go either way at the minute though.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 01:38:58 PMQuote from: yellowcard on October 22, 2021, 01:13:01 PMAt this stage I'd be very surprised if it isn't passed comfortably. I don't see where the votes against are coming from.
It does still look like it could go either way at the minute though.
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 22, 2021, 01:33:02 PM
Despite the fact that three of the four Provincial Councils "DIPLOMATICALLY ADVISED"each county within their jurisdiction to vote against all motions, many counties have mandated their delegates to vote for Proposal B.
This type of intense Provincial Council lobbying cannot be healthy for any democratic organisation.In the circumstances how can it be proven that delegates will vote in the manner that they were advised to? Should the voting system not be transparent to everyone so that proper democracy to be applied!?
Quote from: BennyCake on October 22, 2021, 02:10:10 PMQuote from: Derry Optimist on October 22, 2021, 01:33:02 PM
Despite the fact that three of the four Provincial Councils "DIPLOMATICALLY ADVISED"each county within their jurisdiction to vote against all motions, many counties have mandated their delegates to vote for Proposal B.
This type of intense Provincial Council lobbying cannot be healthy for any democratic organisation.In the circumstances how can it be proven that delegates will vote in the manner that they were advised to? Should the voting system not be transparent to everyone so that proper democracy to be applied!?
Exactly.
I remember when they passed the black card. There was a load of impassioned speakers before the vote and how we need to clean up the game etc. But why do that if delegates already know how they're voting? Why try to sway them at the last minute, if their minds are already made up?
Transparency is definitely needed at congress.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 12:44:35 PMQuote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 12:36:56 PMQuote from: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.
The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.
Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.
However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.
How exactly do can you get Leitrm/Carlow to compete with Dublin and Mayo on a regular basis? You can throw all the funding/coaching in the world at both counties but with their size and playing numbers neither county will ever win Sam.
Quote from: Hound on October 22, 2021, 02:30:48 PM
60% is a high bar. I can see it falling somewhere around 45-55%.
If it did get through I'd be very confident the new provincial championship dates would do much better than the negative press it's getting. Okay, Munster and Leinster will still be Munster and Leinster, but there's absolutely no reason the big games in Connacht and Ulster won't have the same attendance and atmosphere they have in the summer.
Roscommon fans go mental when they win a Connacht U20 in the winter, so I think it's a bit silly to suggest they wouldn't have huge celebrations for winning a senior Connacht title in the Spring. It's not like beating Mayo in a senior final in the normal system knocks Mayo out of the All Ireland anyway, so the fact that Mayo would still be favourites to finish higher than the Rossies in the league/championship format is no reason not to celebrate provincial success as they normally would.
The worry I'd have for the new system is dead rubbers in the lower divisions.
The comment of the Galway county board saying they'd like to see teams 6, 7 and 8 in D1 in the knockout stages really worried me. That would make an absolute nonsense of it and make all 7 games in D1 pre-championship challenge games.
With the All Ireland, only 1 team wins and all rest exit at different times. So to me I see not a thing wrong with a heap of teams exiting after their 7 games. The will have had their chance (games 6 and 7 in particular will have a knockout feel), but they will have failed, and they can try again next year. Certainly better than all the teams who exit at the first or second round of the qualifiers, many only having had 2 or 3 games.
Allowing the best of the worst teams parachute into the knockout stages is annoying some people, but the weaker counties seem unanimous in their view that this is what they want- play games against their own level, and let the best of them then have a shot at the bigger teams.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 01:31:31 PMQuote from: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 12:36:56 PMThis is exactly the problem with the thinking of the GAA and GAA media.Quote from: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.
The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.
Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.
However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.
Making counties which are weak now competitive again is difficult. It takes time, money and effort.
So in true Homer Simpson fashion, the GAA and GAA media tell us "if something is difficult, it's not worth even attempting".
The GAA is telling us that the strong will be strong forever and the weak will remain weak forever. Ultra-elitism.
How long before a yawning chasm of standards emerges within Division 1 itself, where the weakest two or three counties in it cannot compete with the strongest two or three, and we get constant yo-yoing?
And where do we go from there?
The GAA cannot sustain a Premier League format.
And people need to look at the problems with the Premier League, and with other European Leagues.
There's a serious possibility that the Gaelic football championship becomes a La Liga type duopoly, Dublin as Real Madrid, Kerry as Barcelona.
Tyrone and Mayo might be the Atletico Madrids and Valencias.
Down and Derry will probably become Eibar and Rayo Vallecano.
Quote from: Louther on October 22, 2021, 03:17:03 PMThat's a great post. Even on this thread you've got posters criticising plan B because 1 team in division one might be inconvienced. Forget the fact the new plan will benefit many counties, 1 county could potentially lose out so that means vote no.
Some of the narrative round this vote has been depressing. And can sum up what the issues across the GAA are. At the top level - county board, provincial, central council - we have lots of people who see committees and meetings as been at the core of the GAA and tradition been the bedrock.
Fail to see what's going round them and how a few big days in Croke Park, more games and increased pricing has masked the strength of the GAA in recent years. The product itself matters little to a lot of people until the big day out when there will be competition.
We have one person who came up with the options talking them down and saying they need amendments. Amateur hour.
Took a progressive county board like Offaly who said they'd support to get the ball rolling. Offaly aren't a county feeling sorry for themselves and looking others to do it for them. They going out and been active and slowly get rewards. The provincial councils see a challenge coming and dismiss it and everything that comes with it. Rather than seeing opportunities and progressive thinking they run and hide.
They talk about traditional games. It wasn't until recently that they actually started club competitions across all grades. Senior club provincial games aren't about 130 years either. Wasn't until the 70s they started. Intermediate and Junior grades started much later and all these competitions came about because progressive clubs seen these games as opportunities and held good watch tournaments and then later the invitation tournaments for intermediate and junior clubs. Such was their success wasn't long until they became officially under the banner of the provincial councils.
Self preservation is all they see. Leinster county boards have proved this time and time again once Dublins money dangled in front of them.
All the talk now seems to be about keeping more teams in the knock out stages. Why? If you don't qualify you don't qualify. Not as if Div 3 or 4 teams are going to take up half a dozen places. They get an outside chance.
I just don't know if any ambition exists. Roll it out and make it all work. We can amend when it's running after a number of years but the Intercounty championship game of 2019 is dead.
Quote from: lenny on October 22, 2021, 11:14:48 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40727532.html
Great article here which gives a player's point of view along with an administrators. Both have really thought about and raise some very interesting points. It's really a complex issue and the impact on club football would be huge. On balance I'd be sympathetic to Mickey Quinn.
Quote from: Kickham csc on October 23, 2021, 04:23:46 AMQuote from: lenny on October 22, 2021, 11:14:48 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40727532.html
Great article here which gives a player's point of view along with an administrators. Both have really thought about and raise some very interesting points. It's really a complex issue and the impact on club football would be huge. On balance I'd be sympathetic to Mickey Quinn.
I am sympathetic to Mickey Quinn, but the two paragraphs that stand out for me are from Baker
1 - "In Ulster, we had the Dr McKenna Cup, with at least three matches there, sometimes more. You had seven National League matches and then you had at least two championship matches.
You don't have any more games in this system. You possibly have a round robin Ulster Championship which is three matches along with your seven league matches. Some will not have a knockout game. So there aren't any more matches.
2 "We have had 137 years of the provincial championships which we are saying is broken. So why are we changing that with another flawed system?"
Baker lists a number of serious challenges, these really do need to be thought out and war gamed to try and iron out the major flaws
Quote from: DuffleKing on October 23, 2021, 09:18:38 AMHere's something I drew up but it's rubbish so don't vote for it :o
Never met the man but, not for the first time, Barker sounds like an idiot.
We can't play big county games in a window where might be playing pre season club games? And this from a man who served on the committee that brought these recommendations forward!
Quote from: Hound on October 23, 2021, 10:57:18 AM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward
Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the "Playoff Round'
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.
Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.
4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.
Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don't get to play in Sam Maguire. But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann
My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it's quite similar to proposal B.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 12:03:18 PMYou can't read. Fair enough.Quote from: Hound on October 23, 2021, 10:57:18 AM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward
Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the "Playoff Round'
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.
Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.
4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.
Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don't get to play in Sam Maguire. But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann
My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it's quite similar to proposal B.
That makes the league stage essentially pointless.
Quote from: yellowcard on October 23, 2021, 01:11:28 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.
Quote from: Tubberman on October 23, 2021, 01:15:25 PM8 ulster counties against , Down for the motion!Quote from: yellowcard on October 23, 2021, 01:11:28 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.
Secret ballot I think
Quote from: delgany on October 23, 2021, 01:30:26 PMQuote from: Tubberman on October 23, 2021, 01:15:25 PM8 ulster counties against , Down for the motion!Quote from: yellowcard on October 23, 2021, 01:11:28 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.
Secret ballot I think
Quote from: Hound on October 23, 2021, 12:54:02 PMVery touchy, aren't you?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 12:03:18 PMYou can't read. Fair enough.Quote from: Hound on October 23, 2021, 10:57:18 AM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward
Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the "Playoff Round'
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.
Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.
4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.
Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don't get to play in Sam Maguire. But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann
My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it's quite similar to proposal B.
That makes the league stage essentially pointless.
Quote from: bennydorano on October 23, 2021, 01:52:23 PM
Not overly sad, the dilution of the Ulster Championship would have been a tragedy imo, selfish in the overall big picture i know - but still.
Quote from: didlyi on October 23, 2021, 02:14:45 PMFor Dublin to not have two home games in the Super 8s? Now that proposal B is defeated any room on the split season calendar for the McKenna Cup next January?
Sure whats new up North. When was the last time Donegal voted yes for anything?
Quote from: laoislad on October 23, 2021, 02:03:17 PM
Damien Duff was right. Dinosaurs the lot of them.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
Quote from: Tubberman on October 23, 2021, 01:34:54 PMQuote from: delgany on October 23, 2021, 01:30:26 PMQuote from: Tubberman on October 23, 2021, 01:15:25 PM8 ulster counties against , Down for the motion!Quote from: yellowcard on October 23, 2021, 01:11:28 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.
Secret ballot I think
Yes, but you don't know the delegates actually voted
Quote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PMOr why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 05:26:59 PMQuote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PMOr why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 05:26:59 PMQuote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PMOr why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.
Quote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 05:49:17 PMMake a rule that a set percentage of each county's sponsorship goes to a central fund to be redistributed equally per county.Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 05:26:59 PMQuote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PMOr why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.
Sharing of funds is a pipe dream. A very bad one. It would take massive injections of cash, not just sharing what is there. If what Dublin, Mayo, Kerry etc are doing the right thing do we:
A: Fund every county in exact manner as this so that in 10/12 years we have developed all these players over time to be at same level. This will take huge injections of funds while the money from Inter county game will start dwindle. Or
B: Cut the money into these counties and redistribute it round to every other county in equal amounts for football and hurling. Waterford footballers and Kilkenny Hurlers to receive exact same funding.
Yeah. That's happening.
Quote from: lenny on October 23, 2021, 08:16:55 PMOf course big counties have the advantage of numbers.Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 05:26:59 PMQuote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PMOr why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.
You can give all the funds to Carlow, Leitrim and Fermanagh and Kilkenny footballers and they're still not getting anywhere close to even a provincial title. It's not about funding, it's about numbers and that's where the big counties have the advantage. There will be a good number of county players who won't bother next year because of this ridiculous, backwards decision. Change will come though over the next few years. Players like Mickey Quinn deserve to have several championship games in the summer against teams of similar standard so that they can develop.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 08:23:02 PMQuote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 05:49:17 PMMake a rule that a set percentage of each county's sponsorship goes to a central fund to be redistributed equally per county.Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 05:26:59 PMQuote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PMOr why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.
Sharing of funds is a pipe dream. A very bad one. It would take massive injections of cash, not just sharing what is there. If what Dublin, Mayo, Kerry etc are doing the right thing do we:
A: Fund every county in exact manner as this so that in 10/12 years we have developed all these players over time to be at same level. This will take huge injections of funds while the money from Inter county game will start dwindle. Or
B: Cut the money into these counties and redistribute it round to every other county in equal amounts for football and hurling. Waterford footballers and Kilkenny Hurlers to receive exact same funding.
Yeah. That's happening.
Say you get to keep, 50% or 60% and the rest goes to the central fund.
You say why? I say why not?
Quote from: thewobbler on October 23, 2021, 08:30:27 PMCalling me an imbecile isn't doing very much for you.
This happens every two years you imbecile.
Apart from those rare occasions when Ireland qualifies.
You don't even know what it is that you want.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 23, 2021, 08:52:07 PM
You said "If Ireland were told, "sorry lads, ye're no longer competing against the top countries", what do you think we'd say".
Meanwhile on repeat, every two years Ireland play out a league system in order to qualify for the final stages of a tournament.
You're not an imbecile because you're erratic here. You're not an imbecile because you're inconsistent here. You're not an imbecile because you're a hypocrite here.
You're not even an imbecile because you display these exact same tendencies every single time you enter a discussion.
You're an imbecile because you do all this and still think you're clever enough to cover up your erraticisms, your inconsistencies, and your hypocrisy, by ignoring people when it's pointed out.
And thus, you deserve to be called out as an imbecile. Every. f**king. Time. You. Type.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 23, 2021, 09:13:21 PM
Fair enough mod.
Only one of us has history of feuds.
But I'll step away. All done.
Quote from: Hound on October 23, 2021, 10:57:18 AMConvuluted? no it's just bull. Prob B gone for a walk on the wild side, 4211 ;D
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward
Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the "Playoff Round'
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.
Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.
4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.
Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don't get to play in Sam Maguire. But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann
My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it's quite similar to proposal B.
Quote from: lenny on October 23, 2021, 08:16:55 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 05:26:59 PMQuote from: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PMOr why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.
You can give all the funds to Carlow, Leitrim and Fermanagh and Kilkenny footballers and they're still not getting anywhere close to even a provincial title. It's not about funding, it's about numbers and that's where the big counties have the advantage. There will be a good number of county players who won't bother next year because of this ridiculous, backwards decision. Change will come though over the next few years. Players like Mickey Quinn deserve to have several championship games in the summer against teams of similar standard so that they can develop.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 12:36:04 AM
All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.
Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 24, 2021, 02:56:52 AMTheir lack of public comment would suggest they were against but didn't want to be seen opposing Horan and Costello.Quote from: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 12:36:04 AM
All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.
Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages
Got a link to that? fellas on off the ball reckon Dublin voted no.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 08:33:29 AMThe question should be: why has it gone wrong?
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
Quote from: thewobbler on October 24, 2021, 12:44:24 AMPeople have been talking about it for decades.
"Let's get rid of the provincial championships".
50 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.
40 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.
30 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.
20 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.
10 years ago: laughter.
Now: a very slight majority agrees.
—-
It'll happen soon.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 09:50:19 AMQuote from: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 08:33:29 AMThe question should be: why has it gone wrong?
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
The why is the bit nobody wants to address.
That's too hard.
And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.
If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.
The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.
And then you watch the gaps narrow.
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 10:06:12 AMThe 8 team D1 drives gaps in professionalism. It's chicken and egg. Monaghan will train in a professional manner because they know they have to train in a professional manner to keep their place in D1.Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 09:50:19 AMQuote from: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 08:33:29 AMThe question should be: why has it gone wrong?
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
The why is the bit nobody wants to address.
That's too hard.
And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.
If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.
The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.
And then you watch the gaps narrow.
The 8 team D1 is a huge part of the problem
But so is the inequality in training regimes. There was more competition when things were haphazard.
With semi professionalism there is none.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 11:25:18 AMThis is such a dumb take.
It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable.
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 24, 2021, 02:56:52 AMQuote from: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 12:36:04 AM
All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.
Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages
Got a link to that? fellas on off the ball reckon Dublin voted no.
Whatever the format there will be hammerings and farcical games. This year in the summer NFL we had Kerry beating Galway by 22 points and Tyrone by 16. Mayo beat Down by 13 points and Kildare beat Laois by 13.
In the lower divisions Derry beat Longford and Fermanagh by 16 and 19 points respectively. In Division Four, Louth saw off Sligo by 13 points and Carlow saw off Waterford by 15.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 10:57:13 AMQuote from: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 10:06:12 AMThe 8 team D1 drives gaps in professionalism. It's chicken and egg. Monaghan will train in a professional manner because they know they have to train in a professional manner to keep their place in D1.Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 09:50:19 AMQuote from: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 08:33:29 AMThe question should be: why has it gone wrong?
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
The why is the bit nobody wants to address.
That's too hard.
And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.
If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.
The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.
And then you watch the gaps narrow.
The 8 team D1 is a huge part of the problem
But so is the inequality in training regimes. There was more competition when things were haphazard.
With semi professionalism there is none.
Sligo or Wexford don't, because you don't have to train in a professional manner to play in D4.
If Sligo or Wexford were in Division 2A or 2B, they have a realistic aim - get into the top two of the eight team Division they're in, and they're in Division 1A or 1B the next year.
And because the quality of 1A and 1B is diluted a bit compared to the current 8 team Division 1, they then have a decent chance of actually staying in 1A or 1B if they get promoted.
The level you play at will drive how professional you are.
But currently, the six regulars in D1 have driven standards so high that the teams coming out of D2, your Roscommons, Meaths, Kildares and Cavans etc., invariably can't live with D1 football, and go straight back down. They can't establish themselves and it drives demoralisation.
When the element of chaos was introduced by the pandemic, straight knockout football in winter, weird things started happening - Cork beating Kerry, Tipp beating Cork, Cavan winning Ulster.
That wouldn't have happened had it been a normal summer championship coming off the back of a normal D1,D2,D3,D4 NFL season, because the big boys would have been too well prepared and primed.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 12:22:06 PMThe GAA can't go back to the status quo ante. The pandemic kiboshed the Super 8s and they aren't coming back either.
Two Provincial Secretaries showed their true nasty colours alright.
Despite being thrown as a take it or leave it motion, without any official attempt to sell it until an 11th hour endorsement and with some illogical flaws, B still got a majority of the votes.
There's an appetite for "change" but to what and how long till something which can command 60% is arrived at?
Meanwhile we'll have 29 Provincial games of which about 10 will be "vibrant" , majority of games played in February and March with a few games spread over April and May and the "elite" , (who shouldn't be allowed play at all in Bennycake world) then playing on in June and July.
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 24, 2021, 12:09:07 PMThis is an unsolvable problem as long as you have an eight team Division 1 proposed for the Championship.
The second major problem with Proposal B is that the team which finishes 6th in Division One would not qualify for the knock out stages.
Quote from: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 12:52:39 PM
kind of fed up with all the format talk now think ill take time out for a few months at least
Quote from: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 01:01:50 PM
Just have two open draw knockout championships per year its the simplest way but no thats to simple and not enough money for them
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
Think about it.
Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare
Six qualify for the knockout stage.
Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.
Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.
So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.
Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.
Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
Think about it.
Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare
Six qualify for the knockout stage.
Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.
Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.
So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.
Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.
Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 PMMayo wouldn't have made the knockout stages in many recent years
Think about it.
Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare
Six qualify for the knockout stage.
Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.
Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.
So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.
Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.
Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
Think about it.
Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare
Six qualify for the knockout stage.
Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.
Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.
So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.
Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.
Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
Quote from: sidelineball on October 24, 2021, 09:44:17 PMQuote from: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.
Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
Dead right. Keep it all the same, it's working great.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 09:43:29 PMBy winning most or all of their matches in a division in which six of the eight would qualify?Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
Think about it.
Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare
Six qualify for the knockout stage.
Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.
Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.
So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.
Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.
Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
In what way will this current dubs team coast through? They aren't the invincible team they used to be
Quote from: sidelineball on October 24, 2021, 09:40:54 PM50.6% of them weren't ;)
There's nothing wrong with the way things are. The delegates are happy enough with it
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 24, 2021, 08:09:43 PMThey didn't need to win the provincial championship until Covid reverted the system to knockout.Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 PMMayo wouldn't have made the knockout stages in many recent years
Think about it.
Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare
Six qualify for the knockout stage.
Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.
Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.
So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.
Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.
Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Quote from: seafoid on October 25, 2021, 11:47:09 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/promise-to-reform-flawed-option-b-later-not-enough-for-congress-1.4709560
How did the GAA end up rejecting the one vehicle for change on the table?
For a start the body that devised it, the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, had effectively been disbanded and in any case divided over what it wanted. Having started two years ago with two more or less equal proposals, the task force saw motion 18, their Option A - four eight-county, provincial based groups - fall without a word being spoken either for or against.
Lacking a coherent sponsor, the surviving reform lacked energy apart from the campaign mounted by the Gaelic Players Association in more recent weeks.
Yet listening to the debate with its 22 speakers - split 13-9 against the motion - it was impossible not to be struck by how well the proposition was presenting the case. From the start when former president John Horan took to the podium, the advocacy of those supporting change was persuasive.
Horan set out his feelings of disappointment that the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, which he had appointed, had split into camps and addressed perceived issues with the proposal, saying that he didn't, "think the financial worry that's out there for people is what it's portrayed to be".
Thematically the basic argument was made by Cork Central Council delegate Tracey Kennedy. "Fears and concerns about change are absolutely natural but if we look in our hearts nobody can say that the current structure is serving the majority of counties well."
"Our footballers told us in no uncertain terms that if something doesn't change you won't see us again. That's the reality. They left Castlebar in despair. Talking about crowds attending games, as county secretary I was dealing with ticket allocations for that game. Family members weren't even there to support them. That's how lonely it was. That's what the current system is providing for the footballers of Leitrim. It's now time to be brave," - Leitrim secretary Declan Bohan
Quote from: Kickham csc on October 25, 2021, 04:41:30 PMQuote from: seafoid on October 25, 2021, 11:47:09 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/promise-to-reform-flawed-option-b-later-not-enough-for-congress-1.4709560
How did the GAA end up rejecting the one vehicle for change on the table?
For a start the body that devised it, the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, had effectively been disbanded and in any case divided over what it wanted. Having started two years ago with two more or less equal proposals, the task force saw motion 18, their Option A - four eight-county, provincial based groups - fall without a word being spoken either for or against.
Lacking a coherent sponsor, the surviving reform lacked energy apart from the campaign mounted by the Gaelic Players Association in more recent weeks.
Yet listening to the debate with its 22 speakers - split 13-9 against the motion - it was impossible not to be struck by how well the proposition was presenting the case. From the start when former president John Horan took to the podium, the advocacy of those supporting change was persuasive.
Horan set out his feelings of disappointment that the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, which he had appointed, had split into camps and addressed perceived issues with the proposal, saying that he didn't, "think the financial worry that's out there for people is what it's portrayed to be".
Thematically the basic argument was made by Cork Central Council delegate Tracey Kennedy. "Fears and concerns about change are absolutely natural but if we look in our hearts nobody can say that the current structure is serving the majority of counties well."
"Our footballers told us in no uncertain terms that if something doesn't change you won't see us again. That's the reality. They left Castlebar in despair. Talking about crowds attending games, as county secretary I was dealing with ticket allocations for that game. Family members weren't even there to support them. That's how lonely it was. That's what the current system is providing for the footballers of Leitrim. It's now time to be brave," - Leitrim secretary Declan Bohan
Because the alternative had major flaws. You can't propose changes and expect people to close their eyes and jump knowing that their is flaws in what your proposing. If it happened in business you'd be shown the door.
Regarding Ulster counties reluctance to change... we have a great championship, why would Ulster counties vote to remove a championship that both fans and players love simply because other provincial championships are failing. Since 2009 - All nine Ulster counties got to a final, 4 counties have won it, and Armagh and Derry seem poised to challenge again in the next couple of years.
It was noticeable that the hurling recommendations kept the Leinster and Munster championships in tact and kept them meaningful.
Also, there a number of changes that were due to come into effect for the 2022 season. Changes that hadn't been implemented yet. It's like a shit show where there seem no logical thinking behind this.
There are two major issues at the moment, Dublin's dominance in Leinster, and Kerry's in Munster and the impact on other counties.
I thought their was a proposal a couple years back to play the championships during the league, so the weaker counties still had something to play for right up to the end of the intercounty season. Did it die a death too? That would have kept all counties playing competitive football up to the end of the season
Quote from: ck on October 25, 2021, 11:37:47 PMHow do you even justify that? Disgrace
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 26, 2021, 03:51:17 AMQuote from: ck on October 25, 2021, 11:37:47 PMHow do you even justify that? Disgrace
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2021, 11:00:31 AMI mean how can the delegates justify voting against transparent voting? Thats a disgrace.Quote from: Armagh18 on October 26, 2021, 03:51:17 AMQuote from: ck on October 25, 2021, 11:37:47 PMHow do you even justify that? Disgrace
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
He does have a point. There's no point clubs/players/members being asked about motions, or taking a vote, if county delegates vote the opposite way at Congress.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on October 26, 2021, 12:19:17 PMBut problem is nobody knows how they voted !Quote from: Rossfan on October 26, 2021, 12:01:24 PMIf the County Boards, Clubs and Members really cared that much about it would they not hold their delegates to account for it? Or just gas them altogether? At 90%, you could just get rid of them all.
Because they can do what they like and sod the County Boards, Clubs, members, etc etc .
They want to keep it that way.
I reckon that they just don't care that much.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 26, 2021, 11:37:33 AMQuote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2021, 11:00:31 AMI mean how can the delegates justify voting against transparent voting? Thats a disgrace.Quote from: Armagh18 on October 26, 2021, 03:51:17 AMQuote from: ck on October 25, 2021, 11:37:47 PMHow do you even justify that? Disgrace
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
He does have a point. There's no point clubs/players/members being asked about motions, or taking a vote, if county delegates vote the opposite way at Congress.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 27, 2021, 11:36:30 AM
I think the CC had 52 votes in the recent Congress.
There's 1 delegate from each County in Ireland and possibly from each GAA County in Britain.
1 GPA rep, 4 Provincial Council reps, Uachtarán too I presume.
Schools, 3rd level.....
Quote from: Rossfan on October 27, 2021, 11:36:30 AM
I think the CC had 52 votes in the recent Congress.
There's 1 delegate from each County in Ireland and possibly from each GAA County in Britain.
1 GPA rep, 4 Provincial Council reps, Uachtarán too I presume.
Schools, 3rd level.....
Quote from: Zooming around on November 04, 2021, 08:56:16 AM
110 is the magic number Proposal B must hit on Saturday if a league-based All-Ireland championship is to be introduced for the 2022 season.
183 delegates are eligible to vote at Saturday's Special Congress, which means either of the two proposals to reform the All-Ireland SFC must receive at least 110 votes (60% backing) if they are to come into effect from next year.
Of the 183 votes, almost half - 90 - is spread across the 32 counties. The overseas units carry 34 votes, Central Council has 52 votes, with seven past presidents of the GAA also entitled to vote.
Found the above online.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 21, 2021, 09:07:59 AMNot too inspiring from what i saw elsewhere. Heard cork co.
New proposals seem very much under the radar
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1217/1267450-task-force-proposals-to-be-circulated-to-counties/